← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“The emperor has no clothes”
01:29:56
Nicolle Wallace is joined by Vaughn Hillyard, Harry Litman, Glenn Thrush, Beto O’Rourke, Dominic Patten, Michael Grynbaum, Charlie Sykes, and Ian Bassin.
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- [00:00]
Nicole Wallace
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- [00:32]
Harry Lippman
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Nicole Wallace
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Nicole Wallace
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Glenn Thrush
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- [00:57]
Nicole Wallace
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- [01:05]
Vaughn Hilliard
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. Donald Trump might at this point have better luck stopping a freight train, but he's trying anyway this afternoon to turn the page to move on from what has become the most enduring debacle of his second term as president. That is, of course, the Epstein files ordeal, which Politico reports has entered a new stage. Quote, if it wasn't a crisis already, it is indisputably one now. And it threatens to swallow the news cycle and drastically complicate the GOP's push to enact Trump's agenda. As we speak, Donald Trump is in the midst of what amounts to an arm waving look over here mission. He's at the headquarters of the Federal Reserve following repeated, ceaseless criticism of Fed Chair Jerome Powell over myriad things, especially over his refusal to lower interest rates and the cost of renovations to that building. Donald Trump is expected to deliver remarks from the Fed. We'll watch them for you. If news is made, we will report it to you immediately. But it's the story that the administration can't quite escape at this point. And there are developments to tell you about because we understand Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche met with Jeffrey Epstein's accomplice Ghislaine Maxwell, in a Tallahassee courthouse. That meeting appears to be over. Maxwell's attorney said as much, adding that her client answered all the questions. If Blanche emerges at any point in the next couple hours and speaks to cameras, we'll monitor that for you as well. The Trump administration framed Blanche's visit to Maxwell as a search for answers, a position complicated by a couple of factors. First, Maxwell appears to be an unreliable witness. Among her charges was perjury. And a July 2020 Department of Justice filing while Trump was president continued her supporting her continued detention reads in part, quote, the defendant's willingness to brazenly lie under oath about her conduct, including some of the conduct charged in the indictment, strongly suggests her true motive has been and remains to avoid being held accountable for her crimes. The second complicating factor, more news outlets including the New York Times have now confirmed the story came on the air with at this hour yesterday, that is that Attorney General Pam Bondi told Donald Trump in the spring that his name appears in the Epstein files. We'll point out again and again that the mere presence of Donald Trump's name in the Epstein files is not the same thing as evidence that Donald Trump committed a crime or engaged in any wrongdoing. But it is notable, given how badly this has been handled and how hard the administration is insisting to its own base that it should move on. Last night a lawyer for some 200 Epstein victims called on lawmakers to subpoena Epstein's estate for a so called birthday book that was presented to Epstein at his 50th birthday party by Ghislaine Maxwell. Watch.
- [04:03]
Nicole Wallace
I do know that they were involved in the assembly of the book. Several of them they were told by Ghislaine to assist in putting the book together. Others have seen the book post birthday and after it was assembled. So the existence of the book is an absolute fact.
- [04:30]
Ian Bassin
Now, who wrote letters?
- [04:32]
Nicole Wallace
What's in the book? You're going to have to get the book to figure it out.
- [04:37]
Vaughn Hilliard
Now, following that interview, MSNBC reached out to the Epstein estate to confirm not just the existence of the book in question, but whether or not it is still in their possession. Representatives responded, quote, the Epstein estate will comply with all lawful process, end quote. That is where we start today. Some of our favorite reporters and friends. NBC News White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard joins us. Also joining us, New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush and former U.S. attorney, former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Harry Lippman is here. Glenn Thrush, in their minds, what do they think they're doing visiting Ghislaine Maxwell in prison?
- [05:20]
Charlie Sykes
I cannot get into their minds, Nicole.
- [05:24]
Vaughn Hilliard
I guess let me put it differently by their telling what is it that they say they're doing by visiting Ghislaine Maxwell?
- [05:31]
Charlie Sykes
Thank you. Because the other option was too painful for me to contemplate. No, I'm sorry. I think they're doing Essentially whatever they can to give the impression that they're sleuthing this out to the max, essentially. This is really kind of like a small version of what they've been doing all along. What Pam Bondi and Cash Patel did initially in ordering this massive investigation of all the Epstein files down in Winchester, Virginia. What they're trying to do is they're trying to prove that they are going all the way to determine whatever it is that people want them to determine. The difference this time is Trump himself is involved. And I think that Wall Street Journal story about the birthday book changed the game again, in this particular instance. This is a very, very narrow endeavor that Todd Blanche is engaged in. He is somebody who in one legal filing earlier this year as deputy attorney general, mistakenly described himself as Donald Trump's lawyer. He is kind of acting in that capacity to some extent. Now, what is expected from Ghislaine Maxwell's interview, I think you can get out of what her lawyer has said, that it was a friendly, he's described, I think it is a friendly series of interactions. I don't think we're going to get information that's deleterious to Donald Trump. And this is a parallel to what they're attempting to do in court, attempting to unseal grand jury testimony in the Delaine Maxwell and Epstein case. Again, extremely narrow, very unlikely to produce anything that is negative for Donald Trump.
- [07:12]
Vaughn Hilliard
Well, let me ask you to put your old political hat on then for a second, Glenn. I mean, their political problem is in that imprisoned Ghislaine Maxwell wasn't properly interrogated. I mean, she's a convicted sex criminal. Their political problem is that Marjorie Taylor Greene posted on X that what she believes is there is a cover up of other powerful people and that the answers lie in the files. Joe Rogan keeps talking about videotape, Ghislaine Maxwell, their files and videotape didn't take them to prison. How does the visit to Maxwell deal with the perception among Trump's core supporters that they're sitting on a trove of evidence that they won't release?
- [07:55]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, that's a great question. You know, what's going on here is the typical Trumpian thing of throwing everything at the wall at the same time. And I should also bring in the other big thing that's going on or medium thing that's going on is this Tulsi Gabbard referral to the Justice Department of this Russiagate Obama investigation, which Trump literally, I think, in a White House appearance yesterday, correct me if I'm Wrong said Republicans should be talking about instead of the Epstein case, they're just looking for any kind of distraction, anything to show that they're doing something without necessarily doing anything that could harm him. But I think the big political question here is, wouldn't they be better served by just riding it out and maybe not frantically taking all this action? I don't think Trump and the White House has an option because they only have one speed and that's 11. Right. I'm mixing up my metaphors there, but I think isn't there? And look, I've spoken to a couple of people in Trump world over the last 48 hours who have suggested, why don't you just lower the temperature and lower the pace of activity and actually take a page from Mike Johnson, which is get out of town, get out of the spotlight. But they're not inclined to do that. And frankly, I don't think this thing's gonna work. And they're gonna try something else next week would be my guess.
- [09:14]
Vaughn Hilliard
I mean, Vaughn Hilliard Glenn is correct in saying that Donald Trump said that he is talking about arresting President Obama and wants Republicans to, quote, just talk about that, end quote, instead of Epstein. The problem is where Trump has used faux scandals to deflect, it has been to deflect from a scandal that comes from an investigation of facts he wants to keep hidden. This is an hysteria that is predicated on a hysteria that comes from deep inside his own base. The conspiracy theories about Epstein are not based on investigative journalism. In the timeline, the investigative journalism is. And I'll say this to all of you, for better or for worse, following the heat map on the Epstein story amid MAGA voters. So who's calling the political moves in the Trump White House?
- [10:05]
Ian Bassin
On who is calling the political moves is the president himself, Nicole. And let's be clear. What differentiates this Department of Justice, even more so than his first Department of Justice from his first term, is the fact that he ensured that people like his own defense attorneys were in the highest positions within that office. And if you go back, I think this is why who he sent down to Tallahassee is so important. Sending Todd Blanche, his personal defense attorney, is so critical to this. We don't expect to get a transcript out of this meeting with Ghislaine Maxwell. But this is somebody who, when you go back to the first term, we know that Jeff Sessions, for a year and a half continually defended himself from repeated attacks by the president over his handling and decision to remove himself from the investigation of about potential Russian collusion and turn that over to a special counsel. And then it was Bill Barr who resigned in December of 2020 because the President was repeatedly attacking him to further investigate and call the 2020 election a fraud. And William Barr, after leaving office, said that he directly told Donald Trump that it was bs. And so undoubtedly, we know, based off of history here and from our reporting, that the Department of Justice is undoubtedly facing pressure from this White House as it goes and meets here with Ghislaine Maxwell. And, and I think that that is where having Todd Blanche, who already we know, the defense attorney for Ghislaine Maxwell, who he was meeting with just last year, acknowledged that Todd Blanche was somebody who had become a personal friend. I think that we should not ignore the way that the standards and norms and the independence in which the Department of Justice has long stood, how that ultimately implicates this, because Donald Trump built a Department of justice that was a political one. It's not about calling the shots now. They already have individuals who very well understand what their job is within it.
- [11:54]
Vaughn Hilliard
I think that's really important. And it's a real sort of hallmark differential between the first term. But this is a grassroots MAGA political problem. And I wonder, Vaughn, if people acting in the capacity as Trump's personal attorneys will do or know how to do the things that'll make the political crisis go away. And those things would be to give voice to the actual victims. I mean, again, without adding a layer of judgment or incredulity, what the MAGA base believes is that there are child victims of a global sex trafficking conspiracy cabal and that the Trump administration is covering up evidence of that. Is there any talk of bringing forth the Epstein victims on?
- [12:44]
Ian Bassin
James Comer and some Republicans over on the Oversight Committee on the House are talking about having the entire files be released. And the attorney that spoke with our colleague Lawrence o' Donnell last night for many of those victims, specifically said that a great number of those victims would like to have all the files completely released outside of the redaction of victims names. And then at that point, I think that we will get a better understanding of, as we know, in some of these files, including from Ghislaine Maxwell's own federal trial back in 2021, that there are some victims who specifically named Donald Trump as being an associated friend of Jeffrey Epstein. To note, they said that they had not seen any actual wrongdoing by him, but they noted that he was around. But we don't know what the rest of the testimony of other victims who maybe did not come forward during those trials. And so on the political level of this year, I don't think that we will hear see this stop, Nicole, because you and I had conversations back in 2022 when, when we were talking about the fringes of QAnon, which I think we should be clear are not necessarily fringe in the way that we used to consider fringe in our politics. But these were rooted, true beliefs then Jeffrey Epstein did victimize hundreds of young women. But there is a greater belief that the Trump administration was going to come in here and provide safety and refuge for other women that are currently being abused and being held elsewhere. And frankly, right now, this Trump administration is not coming to the rescue of the those women that have been suggested to be out there. And I don't think unless the president answers more directly these questions and Pam Bondi, who has not taken any questions on it herself, I would not expect that the MAGA base will, including many Republican lawmakers. One other point on that, Nicole, is many of these Republican lawmakers, like Marjorie Taylor Greene, they came into power and into Congress in the last year while QAnon and all of this was a thing. And largely they did it fueled their own political ambitions, were fueled by off of this belief. And so why would they step aside when they got into politics largely off of the foundational of this belief and the need to get the Epstein files out there?
- [14:47]
Vaughn Hilliard
Harry Lippman, let me ask you to sort of dance in these two worlds, the political crisis and the legal shenanigans. I don't even know that there's enough actual legal anything in front of us to call that a crisis. But what is the vehicle for giving voice to a victim who is willing to tell her story in the court of law? Or is that just a political exercise at this point? If Republicans who have, as Vaughn just said, made this their cause, made this their purpose, and I would add Kesh Patel, who said, quote, house Republicans have to put their big boy pants on and tell us who the pedophiles are. And Dan Bongino, who has hours and hours of podcast airtime talking about conspiracies in general and this conspiracy theory specifically, and these victimized women in the Epstein conspiracy.
- [15:45]
Dominique Patton
That's far and away the most important question. People are not asking it, Nicole, who the hell is the deputy, the deputy attorney general, no less, to be making this kind of personal fact finding mission in order to help his client? What law is he helping to execute? How is he serving the people? What can Ghislaine Maxwell give to the people in exchange for it's the kind of operation that in the past, maybe a guy like Vernon Jordan or Lloyd Cutler would undertake on behalf of the President. That's what they're doing. And it is completely divorced from any job description of what they're supposed to do. There doesn't seem to be a file open. If there were, by the way, way Bondi is telling Clinton he was in, it would have been flagrantly improper. But it just seems to be this loose political fact finding mission. And are we to believe then, since it's for the answers, that Blanche will tell us everything that G. Lane Maxwell tells him and he's acting completely in the people's interest, that's obviously false. He is now as Deputy Attorney General, which, by the way, they stay home, they don't. They do not travel, much less to see individual witnesses. Really putting himself in the personal service to try to quell a political firestorm that is nowhere part of the job description of the Deputy Attorney General of the United States.
- [17:10]
Vaughn Hilliard
Harry, would we have any way of knowing if Ghislaine Maxwell asked for a pardon?
- [17:17]
Dominique Patton
Not necessarily. And they could, in fact, even arrange it that. We'll give it to you later. But again, think about it. In return for what information that helps Donald Trump personally. Right. We have now these continual attestations that, in fact, he was so close with Epstein and the like, if she contradicts that that's good for Trump, it's not necessarily good for justice. I think it's likely, if something like that happens to sort of seep out. But the smart way they would do it is at the end of his term. But there's so much that's sort of roiling here and she's going to be in front of the house and now there's going to be asked questions flat out that I think it will be hard to allude, but there's no legal requirement that a deal like that be sort of, you know, put into the public eye.
- [18:09]
Vaughn Hilliard
Glenn, let me just remind everybody what Ghislaine Maxwell is serving, what she was convicted of. She's in prison near Tallahassee or in Tallahassee. That's why the Deputy Attorney General General of the United States traveled to Tallahassee today to meet with Ghislaine near her prison. She was convicted of conspiracy to entice minors children to travel to engage in a legal sex act. She was convicted of conspiracy to transport minors to participate in illegal sex acts. She was convicted of transporting a minor to participate in illegal sex acts. She was convicted of sex trafficking conspiracy. She was convicted of sex trafficking, a minor. I think those meet all the technical definitions of a pedophile. These are children. These are not women. These are underage girls. I guess I'm old enough and so are you to remember when that in and of itself was scandalous. What. What is the actual sort of expectation that's been communicated to journalists about what Blanche was going to achieve from a convicted pedophile?
- [19:21]
Charlie Sykes
Well, a couple of things. First of all, in addition to that terminology, my colleague and I, Mike Baker, did a story a couple of days ago in which Mike interviewed a young woman who had the courage to come forward and discuss what Maxwell had done to her back in the day. And the whys and wherefores of those interactions were grotesque. She was involved physically in some of these instances of abuse as an enabler. So she is a person who is, according to her own case file, someone who has done some atrocious things. Okay. And then, in addition, you had, during her trial back in 22, in 21 and 22, you had an initial allegation by the U.S. attorney's office with the Southern District of New York that she had perjured herself. It is only fair to say that that charge was eventually dropped, but it is my understanding it was more about streamlining the case than them not possessing enough evidence to pursue that charge. So when he comes out of this, and if the Trump administration cuts any sort of a deal, whether it's a pardon, clemency, serving time in a different location, I do not believe that that will be regarded positively by anybody. Forget about Trump's critics on the outside. We're talking about his base, and that is what makes this so unique and so destructive for him. That a majority of the people who supported him were also obsessed with the Epstein case was a weird fit to begin with. The fact that he had to sort of assuage these folks and suggest that he was going to make large disclosures in order to keep them on board in 2024 was one of those hacks that politicians make typical, more conventional way that has now come back to haunt him. And he's paying the price right now and will continue to pay the price.
- [21:20]
Vaughn Hilliard
Yeah. And just before we go to break, Donald Trump on Ghislaine Maxwell, when asked by your colleague Jonathan Swift, Swan, quote, I wish her well. I wish her well. And Swan, in the interview, made sure he knew that he was wishing a pedophile well. And he said, I wish her well. I'd wish anyone well. No one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, Trump and the Republicans seeking to cling to power have ginned up a scheme to carve out even more seats for themselves in Congress. And that campaign starts today in earnest in Texas. How the Democrats are mobilizing to try to stop the GOP power grab in that state and around the country. Beto o' Rourke will join us on that. Also ahead, as Donald Trump faces growing unrest and criticism from those in his MAGA base, he faces scorn and mockery from just about everybody else. Why this time this political setback feels and looks and sounds different when we know this president cannot handle a a joke, especially when it's about him. We'll show you all of that and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [22:32]
Glenn Thrush
I've never felt like this before.
- [22:35]
Nicole Wallace
It's like you just get me. I feel like my true self with you.
- [22:40]
Vaughn Hilliard
Does that sound crazy?
- [22:42]
Nicole Wallace
And it doesn't hurt that you're going to gorgeous.
- [22:46]
Glenn Thrush
Okay, that's it.
- [22:47]
Nicole Wallace
I'm taking you home with me. I mean, you can't find shoes this good just anywhere. Find a shoe for every you from brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas and more at your DSW store or dsw.com this is an ad by BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now a leading cause of declining mental health. With 61% of the global workforce feeling.
- [23:11]
Jen Psaki
It more than ever.
- [23:13]
Nicole Wallace
You can't escape work, but you can take small steps to care for yourself. A walk, some sun, a favorite song. Therapy is one of those steps.
- [23:21]
Jen Psaki
Ongoing support to build resilience for whatever your day throws at you.
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Nicole Wallace
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Jen Psaki
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- [23:30]
Harry Lippman
That's betterhelp.com MSNBC presents the Chart topping.
- [23:37]
Glenn Thrush
Original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace.
- [23:41]
Nicole Wallace
This week she sits down with actor Jeff Daniels.
- [23:45]
Charlie Sykes
When you check out of the Ambition Hotel, you kind of go, okay, now I just want to do stuff that keeps me interested.
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Harry Lippman
The best people with Nicole Wallace listen now.
- [23:55]
Nicole Wallace
For early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [24:07]
Charlie Sykes
So we're taking a look and it.
- [24:09]
Nicole Wallace
Looks like it's about 3.1 billion.
- [24:11]
Charlie Sykes
It went up a little bit or a lot.
- [24:14]
Nicole Wallace
So the 2.7 is now 3.1. I'm not aware of that. Yeah, it just came out. Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody at the Fed. Our notes had it about 3.1 as well.
- [24:31]
Glenn Thrush
3.2.
- [24:32]
Nicole Wallace
This came from us. Yes.
- [24:35]
Glenn Thrush
I don't know who does that.
- [24:39]
Ian Bassin
You're including the Martin renovation.
- [24:40]
Nicole Wallace
You just added. You just added in a third building is what that is. That's a third building. It's a building that's being built.
- [24:48]
Beto O'Rourke
No, it's been.
- [24:48]
Nicole Wallace
It was built five years ago. We finished Martin five years ago. It's part of the overall work, but it's not new.
- [24:59]
Vaughn Hilliard
I guess the news there is that Donald Trump got Jerome Powell to wear a hard hat. But the real scoop is that Jerome Powell in real time failed to be humiliated by Donald Trump by looking, putting on his glasses, reading the document Donald Trump pulled out of his pocket and making a fool out of Donald Trump for getting his facts wrong about the cost of multiple buildings being renovated. Bon Hilliard. That seemed like a colossal failure. Where are they going next?
- [25:28]
Ian Bassin
I mean, though, may I say, Nicole, the number of people that we have on camera with the current sitting president here in 2025 repudiating and pushing back against his commentary, it's a very small number. Volodymyr Zelinsky, Mark Carney, and I think Jerome Powell. I'd have to spend a little bit more time coming up with a longer list, if there is one. Jerome Powell. It was a question of whether the Fed chair was going to be here for this moment. With the president coming over to take a look at the Federal Reserve headquarters which is going undergoing this major renovation. We should be clear it's not with taxpayer money, it's with Federal Reserve resources to go through this renovation here. The president cannot fire the Fed chairman, but people within his White House are essentially laying the foundation to claim that there was fraud by Jerome Powell in this renovation, that they are over budget. And that is where you saw the dispute between the 2.5 billion construction costs versus now the 3.1 billion. And you see Jerome Powell saying, well, that was including a third building that we already finished five years ago, so that shouldn't be included. I asked for Russ Vote last week, the OMB director who has been on the front lines of arguing this supposed fraud if he had any specific allegations to point to. And he said, well, that's what they're looking into. So it's another moment where this administration is alleging fraud or wrongdoing before actually having that evidence and looking after. That's quite a remarkable moment of television, I think, that we just saw.
- [26:55]
Vaughn Hilliard
I mean, such a debacle for Trump. He should have stuck with Nanny Ninny, nanny, I don't like you. I mean, that was ridiculous. I got flop sweat for The President, Glenn, this is the story he doesn't want us to talk about. This is a deposition, a tape deposition with Jeffrey Epstein. Let me actually provide some context. It's from back in 2010. The series of questions were about associations. Precisely what is sort of at the beating heart, at the intersection of the conspiracy theory and sort of the fact pattern. The piece that MAGA wants most is all the powerful people who are involved with Jeffrey Epstein. So this was a line of questioning about David Copperfield, about Alan Dershowitz and others, and this happened. Let me play this for you.
- [27:46]
Nicole Wallace
Have you ever had a personal relationship with Donald Trump?
- [27:53]
Glenn Thrush
What do you mean by personal relationships?
- [27:55]
Nicole Wallace
Have you socialized with him?
- [27:57]
Vaughn Hilliard
Yes, sir.
- [27:58]
Nicole Wallace
Yes. Yes, sir.
- [28:00]
Jen Psaki
Have you ever socialized with Donald Trump.
- [28:03]
Nicole Wallace
In the presence of females under the age of 18? Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have.
- [28:17]
Glenn Thrush
To assert my 5th, 6th, and 14th amendment rights.
- [28:24]
Vaughn Hilliard
There's something eerie, I guess, about the voice from the grave, but that was Jeffrey Epstein in his own words when asked about being with Donald Trump in the presence of girls under 18.
- [28:38]
Charlie Sykes
I mean, we had some reporting. A reporter at our paper, a couple of reporters at our paper wrote a story earlier this week talking about Trump being in the presence of Epstein with a young woman. I think that Epstein said something along the lines of this one's for me or something in the story. I don't recall it exactly.
- [29:04]
Vaughn Hilliard
Ms. Farmer. Yeah. He says, quote, this one's not for you. Yeah, right.
- [29:08]
Charlie Sykes
So I think, look, I think the one thing we should. We should keep pointing to is there have been a lot of investigations that have gone on to this prior to the ones that the Trump administration itself is conducting, and they have not found sufficient evidence or from. From our reporting over the years as a paper, anything that's really a predicate for a serious investigation into Trump's involvement sort of thing. But again, it gets back to this issue of. Of how his base can reconcile their passion to find out about what. What happened. And also the energy that. That this emanates from. Trump's entire political movement is predicated on belief. There's a rich and powerful cabal of people who are not accountable to regular folks who are scheming in the background, and that he's not part of that, and he's going to tear that down. This cuts against it. The question is, will there be. And we haven't necessarily seen it in the polling, but will there be a moment, particularly as we move towards the midterms and towards A period of time where Donald Trump really does become a lame duck president when they decide to split off and take care of themselves and try to turn Trumpism into something different, bigger than him, that can survive him and more importantly for them, that can keep them making money and keep them getting elected.
- [30:29]
Vaughn Hilliard
Yeah, I mean, Harry, back to Vaughn's point and yours about turning the Department of Justice into basically Blanche, Bobby and Bondi criminal defense attorney law firm for Donald Trump. The peril is that as a lame duck, your political power comes from being able to point to other people and say, don't take my word for it. Take this independent Department of Justice or this standard bearer of law enforcement at the FBI. Take their word for it. He doesn't have that anymore. He has so subverted independence and truth and veracity and credibility that everyone's going to rise and fall. And do you know how many people approve of his handling of the Epstein files, including Democrats and Republicans? 9%. I think that makes up maybe the number of people who work at Blanche, Bondi and Bovey. So no one supports this and there's no one to blame but Trump.
- [31:29]
Dominique Patton
And let's just another point about the BBB law firm, right? We were talking Glenn's point. What maybe they offer someone to Gillen Maxwell. When you get a plea bargain for someone, it's because they give something of value to to the United States of America. They solve another crime, they make things easier in one way or another. Presumably Blanche is there to get something of value to Donald Trump and no one else. So it really is this bastardization of their function. But it's also, I think all the other comments kind of show it's a mucky political scandal for now. And what would actually he does seem to be sinking into the quagmire more and more now. The ultimate question is will they just give them a pass at some point and just forget about it? That's the political question. As the DOJ guy, I just want to say that what they're doing is completely improper and ultra various. But the political question is hard to bottom line on because what will take this very vehement group as far as I can tell, and make them say, nah, never mind. That just doesn't seem to be in the cards.
- [32:40]
Vaughn Hilliard
Vaughn, let me give you the last word on where they go from here. Glenn mentioned the effort to move the spotlight over to frankly, modern history's most scandal free administration. The eight years of Obama were lacking in any. There were no special counsels, there were no personal scandals. But Donald Trump is now got Tulsi Gabbard working in service of a fabricated lie about Russian interference that is contradicted by Marco Rubio as a senator who was running the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation into the intelligence, as well as John Durham who was essentially a noun of urban. The Durham report was going to be their rebuttal to Mueller. So tell me what the assessment is internally of how that's working out.
- [33:35]
Ian Bassin
Well, we aren't hearing many Republican lawmakers, if I may, you know, calling for the arrest of President Obama like we have seen the President of the United States and his director of National Intelligence do. And I think it's frankly because the allegations that they are levying are very difficult to explain because it is so weedsy and still there is no also disputing that in fact the Russians did in fact try to influence, influence the 2016 campaign by damaging Hillary Clinton's campaign. That's not being disputed here. And so really trying to explain what Gabbard and the president are calling the years long conspiracy the greatest crime in the history of America, it's frankly very difficult to explain. And I think that's why it was also so remarkable yesterday to hear the director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, at a time in which there's very real questions about what's in the Jeffrey Epstein files instead of she publicly from the podium at the White House made allegations against Hillary Clinton which she purported to be intelligence that the US intel community had based off of what they said that Russian foreign actors were prepared to claim against Hillary Clinton. And the way that she made those very specific suggestions from the podium at the White House was quite stunning, especially in contrast to the way in which the Steele dossier was privately by the FBI brought to Donald Trump and suggested that they were unverified claims. And so in so many ways, for all the criticisms of the Steele dossier and everything, it was quite something to watch Tulsi Gabbard come out and publicly behind a podium at the White House make Russian allegations against the former Secretary of State and former first lady of the United States at a time in which there are serious questions about the actual files that they actually have on hand and that are words of testimony from actual victims here in the United States of America of sex trafficking criminals.
- [35:33]
Vaughn Hilliard
Such an interesting, interesting and twisted analysis. And she was behind the podium, but interestingly she was not behind Donald Trump when he was behind the podium announcing US Strikes in Iran. So always a personnel drama behind the scenes where Trump is concerned as well. Vaughn Hilliard Glenn Thrush, thank you for your reporting. Harry Lipman, thank you for being of counsel. And thank you all for starting us off on this today. Tonight, right here on msnbc, my colleague Jen Psaki sits down with Maria Farmer. She's a former employee. We talked about her in the reporting from the New York Times earlier this week. She's a former employee turned accuser of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. She told the NYPD and the FBI to look into Jeffrey Epstein's orbit and that included Donald Trump as early as 1996. You don't want to miss that conversation, that interview. That'll be right here at 9pm Eastern. Another break for us. Up next, how Democrats are fighting back against all of this and Republican overreach. Beto o' Rourke will be our guest.
- [36:44]
Beto O'Rourke
This is for the very future and fate of the republic. We lose it, you will never, ever get it back. And so not only do I think we should meet fire with fire and Gavin Newsom, who has a trifecta in California and could arguably increase Democratic congressional advantage there, not only do I not want, not not only do I think he should do this, I don't think he should wait for Texas. In other words, why the are we responding and reacting to the other side instead of taking the offense on these things? I mean, Republicans care about power more than they care about anything else, whether it's right or wrong, ethics, morality, the Constitution, the rule of law, self government. Democrats care more about being right than they care about being in power. And we have to change that.
- [37:32]
Vaughn Hilliard
Former Texas Congressman Beto o' Rourke on the sky high stakes and the inconvenient truth of this political moment. He's speaking specifically there, though, about Texas's redistricting fight and the imperative for Democrats across the country to, in his words, fight fire with fire. It comes as Texas began a special legislative session this week to further skew its maps to create more Republican congressional strongholds. It's a move that comes seemingly at the behest of Donald Trump, who last week openly called for Texas to further rig their maps to shore up Republicans razor thin majority in the House of Representatives. Donald Trump claims that Republicans could pick up five additional seats through redrawing Texas's congressional maps. Joining us now is Beto o'. Rourke. He now runs a voter registration organization called Power to the People. It's great to see you.
- [38:23]
Beto O'Rourke
Thank you, Nicole, for having me on.
- [38:25]
Vaughn Hilliard
Let me deal with the the bigger issue that I think you're getting at there, which is the asymmetry here in Year nine of the fight with Donald Trump, which was first a fight within my old party in the Republican primaries. That's what was happening 10 years ago, and then became a fight against three Democratic presidential opponents, and now is a fight against democracy itself. How it feels like Democrats are finally ready to fight in the way you're talking about. Is that your sense?
- [38:59]
Beto O'Rourke
I hope so. You know, time is about to tell us, but it feels like in years past, we have effectively, unilaterally disarmed, you know, for example, in some of these states, I think California is one of them. We ceded power from the state legislature to citizen redistricting commissions. I think it's a great idea if every single state in the union does it at the same time. Right. So that you don't have California with their hands tied behind their backs, and Texas free to allow members of Congress to choose their voters, as is about to take place right now in my home state, unless we stop them. It reminds me of when Democrats had the White House, the House in the Senate in 2021, and there were so many important things we needed to do, like pass voting rights so that this could not happen in the future. And you had Democrats saying, oh, but if we overturn the filibuster or get rid of that, then, you know, what. What would happen? What would Republicans do to us? And it seems like we're always so focused on, you know, doing the right thing, which is great, right? And doing it the right way and not provoking the other side. And the other side is like, I don't care about any of that stuff. I just want power. And when I have power, I want more power. And when I get that more power, I'm going to keep you from ever getting power again. Which, Nicole, is what will happen if Trump is successful in getting five new Republican seats, taking them from five communities that currently have Democrats representing them. It's really the only check against his tyranny. This slide into autocracy and the third term that he's promised us that he will take. And we should believe him that he's serious about that, given what he did at the end of his first.
- [40:45]
Vaughn Hilliard
I remember that moment. I mean, I remember coming on the air with our shows and. And asking Democrats if they were afraid they would regret doing infrastructure, which they had all great reasons to do. Infrastructure, bipartisan support, but that what good would it be to have the political benefit of infrastructure if the Republicans had succeeded in manufacturing the electorates in front of which they thought they could be successful? And I think that moment is so fateful. And I wonder if you speak privately with Democrats who one regret, you know, sort of, you know, oh, the norms excuse. And if you think there's still a need for more change in leadership in Washington among the Democratic Party, absolutely.
- [41:28]
Beto O'Rourke
And Nicole, I remember talking with you at the time that this was taking place, debate about voting rights, because if you remember, the Texas state House Democrats had broken quorum to try to prevent Greg Abbott from rewriting our election laws and disenfranchising more of our fellow Texans. And they chose to go to D.C. when they broke quorum because they were imploring their fellow Democrats in the Senate because the House had already passed the John Lewis Voting Rights Advancement act, imploring Chuck Schumer and other Democrats to take this important step not to upend norms and traditions for the sake of it, but to save the very idea of self government, you know, that we're going to have free and fair elections, which we do not have in Texas and which we do not have in so many states across the country. And the irony now looking back on that, that we're going to ask these Texas state House Democrats again to break quorum, this time to prevent Greg Abbott and the Texas Republicans from redrawing these districts and drawing out millions of our fellow Texans from any real voting power and perhaps drawing Donald Trump into a third term after this one ends. So to that point, we still have some cards to play. The Democrats can leave Texas. We can support them when they do. It's a very expensive, very tough proposition. Those Democrats who have power in states like California and Minnesota, Maryland, New Jersey, Illinois, New York, they can use that power perhaps to fight fire with fire and draw new congressional districts to Democrats advantage. And Nicole, I sure hope that they don't wait for Texas to move first because if they do, it may be accomplished. It may be too late for Democrats to move on this stuff. And there will be some answering to do. If at the end of the day, we have lost the last best hope of earth because we were too concerned with traditions and norms and playing nice. There are no longer referees in this fight. It is solely about power. And, and Democrats need to get serious about it.
- [43:36]
Vaughn Hilliard
When you talk about California, I mean, I think Gavin Newsom has publicly flirted with what you're talking about. Have you had conversations with other statewide elected Democrats in any of the other states you mentioned?
- [43:52]
Beto O'Rourke
No, I'm trying to do what I can to generate as much pressure, talking to their constituents, talking to them through shows just like yours, making sure that people Understand that we can fight back. We're always on the back foot. We're always reacting. We're always fighting back instead of fighting forward, going on the offense, taking the fight to them. If we have learned nothing so far, it is that they will not stop at five congressional seats in Texas. They will find other pretense to rig this election even further. Because Donald Trump understands that if Democrats get a majority in the House, there will be accountability for every illegal, corrupt thing that he has done so far, every illegal, corrupt thing that he plans to do going forward. And that third term certainly is, is out the window. So his future and fate hangs in the balance for this one. And you know that guy is going to do literally everything within his power. He will break the law, he will incite violence, he'll do whatever it takes. Now, I don't think we should ever participate in violence. I believe in nonviolence. I believe in and peaceful democratic solutions to these challenges. But within those constraints, do absolutely everything, absolutely everything that we have to in order to win power.
- [45:09]
Vaughn Hilliard
What is your assessment of this political moment with the White House awash in the first. I believe it is the first ever MAGA generated MAGA burning political scandal. I mean, even Access Hollywood was not something that separated Trump from his MAGA base. They either accepted, was it Melania who called it locker room talk, or they liked what they heard on the Access Hollywood tape. This is the first scandal that has consumed Donald Trump that is wholly produced by his own base and sustained by their lack of dissatisfaction with his responses. What is your sense of this moment and this opportunity for Democrats?
- [45:51]
Beto O'Rourke
90% of America wants the files released. 90% of America is happy that they haven't been released by the Trump administration. Getting 90% of America to agree that they like ice cream is a challenge. We're such a divided, polarized country. So now that we have some unity, I think it's time for Democrats to use this to make the case that Trump and his administration are all about protecting the uber rich, the elite, the folks who already have power, always at the expense of the powerless. In this case, it includes young women and girls who were sexually exploited and raped at the hands of this predator and those who aided and abetted and those who knew better and did nothing. Now we don't know who all those people are. There's a lot of speculation. The best way to end it is to open up and release those files to the American public. What we do know from reporting that we've seen in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times and other reputable outlets like MSNBC is that the attorney general has notified the president that he is included in those files. We know that the Wall Street Journal uncovered a letter that Donald Trump wrote to Jeffrey Epstein on his 50th birthday alluding to a secret that they shared together. The American people deserve to know the truth. And I don't think this is going away. And it certainly certainly not an issue only that Democrats are interested in. You have Thomas Massie and other conscientious Republicans who are not going to stop until they get the truth. And I don't think that, you know, Speaker Johnson dismissing Congress until September is going to quell this. I think it is going to fester and grow. There will be accountability and there will be a reckoning.
- [47:33]
Vaughn Hilliard
Can we ask you to come back and keep us updated on the redistricting effort? It is one of the things that makes this story, I think, tricky is it's just one of those things that people don't want to worry about. They don't want to worry that this, too, has become corrupted. But this is where the Republicans have taken the battle. And so keeping the focus here is super important. And we'll put you on the spot and ask you to come back and keep us posted on what is happening in Texas and other places as well.
- [48:04]
Beto O'Rourke
Happy to.
- [48:06]
Vaughn Hilliard
Thank you. Thank you. But, o', Rourke, thank you for spending time with us. Another break for us. Up next. The Senate today is voting on several of Donald Trump's controversial judicial nominees. We'll bring you that story next. In the last few hours, the Senate has advanced two of Donald Trump's more controversial judicial nominations, with the Judiciary Committee advancing former Fox News host Jeanine Pirro's nomination to be the top federal prosecutor in the District of Columbia. Along party lines, Emil Bovey faced pushback on his nomination to the Third Circuit Court of Appeals from two Republican senators, Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins, but ultimately advanced, setting up a final confirmation vote for him on Monday evening. More than 900 former Justice Department attorneys and more than 75 former federal and state judges have spoken out and opposed his nomination, citing his role both in the mass firing of Justice Department prosecutors who investigated January 6th and in the effort to drop the Department of Justice's prosecution of New York City Mayor Eric Adams. But stopping his nomination would have required four Republican senators to stand up to Donald Trump, and there are only two. So here we are up next for us, Trump as the punchline. The next hour of deadline. White House starts after a quick break.
- [49:36]
Nicole Wallace
Want to pull off the season's freshest trends. You just need the right shoes. That's where designer shoe warehouse comes in.
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Glenn Thrush
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Nicole Wallace
Obsessed with the sheer trend?
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Glenn Thrush
Try it with mesh flats.
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Nicole Wallace
Feeling Boho comfy sandals.
- [49:54]
Glenn Thrush
Nail the whole free spirited thing. Find on trend and shoes from the brands you love like Birkenstock, Nike, Adidas.
- [50:01]
Nicole Wallace
And more at DSW. This is an ad by BetterHelp. Workplace stress is now a leading cause of declining mental health, with 61% of.
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Jen Psaki
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Nicole Wallace
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Jen Psaki
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Nicole Wallace
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Jen Psaki
Getting help shouldn't be. Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off your first month. That's better.
- [50:35]
Harry Lippman
H E L p.com MSNBC's Jen Psaki.
- [50:40]
Nicole Wallace
Host of the Briefing We've never experienced.
- [50:43]
Vaughn Hilliard
A moment like this in our country, and it leaves us all with a choice. Are we going to speak out or are we going to be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents. I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned learned is that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless.
- [50:59]
Nicole Wallace
We have our voices and I will continue using mine. The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC. There's been a lot of smoking guns.
- [51:13]
Ian Bassin
In this case, but shortly before we taped this show, we got the smokiest yet.
- [51:18]
Nicole Wallace
Because the Wall Street Journal is now.
- [51:20]
Ian Bassin
Reporting that back in May, Attorney General Pam Bondi informed the President that his.
- [51:25]
Nicole Wallace
Name was in the Epstein files.
- [51:34]
Beto O'Rourke
But he said he hardly knew the guy.
- [51:39]
Vaughn Hilliard
He's in the file. He's in the file.
- [51:48]
Nicole Wallace
You know, you know, you know how they say there's no such thing as bad publicity?
- [51:53]
Beto O'Rourke
They're not talking about this.
- [51:59]
Vaughn Hilliard
Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the east and completely unleashed. Stephen Colbert could barely contain his own amusement over yesterday's breaking news that Donald Trump's own Attorney General, Pam Bondi, told him that he is mentioned in the Epstein files at a meeting back in May. As Colbert's fellow late night host Seth Meyers points out, this wasn't all that surprising to many.
- [52:25]
Nicole Wallace
You know, the hardest part of that.
- [52:27]
Ian Bassin
Meeting was everyone having to pretend to be surprised. Mr. President we have some shocking news.
- [52:32]
Vaughn Hilliard
Your name is in the Epstein files.
- [52:39]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I can't believe I was only friends with him for what, 15 years?
- [52:46]
Vaughn Hilliard
Those clips are. Colbert and Myers are just two teeny moments. We had to choose two to start with. In a veritable pylon by the country's late night hosts over the Trump administration's disastrous handling of the Epstein files. The incredulity, the surrealness of this story has now seeped so deeply into culture that even Jimmy Fallon, the late night host who typically shies away from being particularly political, couldn't help but weigh in on Trump's many attempts to distract from the story.
- [53:23]
Beto O'Rourke
The whole dang country wants to know.
- [53:25]
Nicole Wallace
Where'S the Epstein list?
- [53:27]
Beto O'Rourke
But Trump would rather change the subject.
- [53:30]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, it goes a little bit something like this.
- [53:33]
Beto O'Rourke
There's a video of him telling Jeff a joke.
- [53:38]
Nicole Wallace
Time to go online and say there's sugar in our coke.
- [53:43]
Beto O'Rourke
There's a card he sent to Jeff.
- [53:45]
Nicole Wallace
For his big birthday. Time to tell the NFL, go back.
- [53:50]
Charlie Sykes
To your old names, the problematic ones.
- [53:55]
Beto O'Rourke
Jeff was at his second wedding. It's causing lots of drama. Hurry up. Turn on caps lock and say, let's arrest Obama. Threaten Greenland. Dance on TikTok.
- [54:07]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, you get the gist.
- [54:10]
Beto O'Rourke
Anything to get us stop asking about that Epstein Lyle.
- [54:20]
Vaughn Hilliard
It's pretty catchy. Now, all presidents go through something like this sometimes for their ups and downs and presidents are not strangers to being the subject of jokes, especially when it comes to late night hosts. But what's happening with the Epstein story? What you're seeing for Donald Trump is an opening of the floodgates, opening of comedic takes from the center to the left all the way through to the right to the farthest reaches on the right. All about how suspicious Trump and his administration's handling of the Epstein files has been. Last night in its season premiere, after nearly two and a half years off, south park held back nothing. In addition to taking on their own parent company, Paramount, with whom it just signed a 1.5 billion with a B dollar deal, the show came out swinging against Donald Trump. Among their many jabs against Donald Trump, they showed him in bed with Satan. Satan asked if he was on the Epstein list or not. The rest of it was much more graphic and shall we say, a little too below the belt to share with you in our time slot Deadline, who described South Park's depiction of Trump as a Satan canoodling and less than well endowed, pompous bully, to put it mildly, end quote. Is reporting today that Donald Trump is, quote seething over the portrayal. But south park, late night talk shows, these are all the normal places in a democracy for criticism and comedy. And I guess the big question is, does it. Does it really matter? Well, Trump's reversal on the Files is such a big deal, even his base can't help but pile on and share in their disbelief. We showed you what comedian and podcaster Andrew Schultz said a few weeks ago when he and his guests donned tinfoil hats with their fellow podcasters and mocked how the administration told everyone that there was nothing to see when it comes to the Epstein files. The White House was so angry with what they said that they put out a statement to Fox News refuting the podcast and the podcaster. Here's how Schultz responded to that. Last week.
- [56:38]
Nicole Wallace
Apparently, we ruined America. You know, we were trying to hold the person in power, President Trump, accountable for not fulfilling some of his promises, and that was foolish, man.
- [56:50]
Charlie Sykes
Nah, you're an idiot.
- [56:51]
Nicole Wallace
That was a bad person thing to do. Once you vote for somebody, no matter what they do, even if it's the exact opposite of what they say they're gonna do, you just ride that until.
- [57:00]
Glenn Thrush
The wheels fall off.
- [57:01]
Nicole Wallace
That was a big up of ours. That was a big up, man. We just kind of wanted to know about Epstein, you know, victimizing a thousand girls and who else he did it with. We just kind of wanted to know. And Trump was like, you're not gonna know. We were like, I don't like that. Yeah, but that's our fault. Yeah, that's being a bad American, but.
- [57:16]
Glenn Thrush
We were being bad.
- [57:19]
Vaughn Hilliard
Donald Trump being laughed at, something we know he absolutely, positively hates is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Dominique Patton is here, executive editor at Deadline Hollywood. Also joining us, media correspondent for the New York Times, author of the new book Empire of the Elite, Inside Conde Nast and the media dynasty that Reshaped America. Michael Grimbaum is here and with us for the hour. MSNBC columnist, author of the newsletter to the Contrary. Charlie Sykes is here. Dominic, you go first. Let's deal with south park first. We had a hard time finding something to show here on this program, but just in a PG13 manner. Describe the episode and take us inside your reporting about Trump's reaction.
- [58:06]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, thank you for having me, Nicole. Look, satire is as. Is as American as apple pie, and it certainly has a long history, from the Roman Empire with Juvenile to Jonathan Swift, Mark Twain, Dorothy Parker, the Onion, John Stewart, and of course, South Park. And south park, which has been in the news for more corporate and legal struggles lately, really unleashed. And here's what's particularly interesting. It's well known that Trey Parker and Matt Stone often don't deliver their episodes to just like less than a day sometimes before they're going to air. This premiere was supposed to be on July 9, but because of the legal shenanigans they were having with Paramount and this deal that you mentioned at the beginning, it was delayed until last night. Clearly they did this one right down to the wire. There's Stephen Colbert, there's the Epstein files. There's CBS bowing to Trump with the $16 million payment. There's 60 Minutes bowing to Trump. There's 60 Minutes being praised. And of course, there's Donald Trump threatening to sue the media and in this case, suing the town of south park for billions because, well, essentially he feels like it. And they make a deal with him for 3.5 million. That deal includes having to make a PSA, which you guys really can't show, but essentially has the President in the desert with a narrator who mocking him and mocking him as a rather flabby Donald Trump takes all his clothes off. And you see certain parts of the President that, well, put it mildly, don't make America look so great again. And that is putting it as politely as I can. But the great thing about it is, in the six months the Trump administration has been back in power, this is the most scathing take on them. And I think it's really resonating even more so. And as we reported, the White House did have a heads up about this. And Skydance, the new owners of Paramount Global, any day now had a high heads up about this. It's not the kind of thing Donald Trump can take. Very surprising for a man who often has thin skin. Trump has not tweeted or remarked about this at all today. Now, Assistant Press Secretary Taylor Rogers did talk about it. He gave us a statement at deadline. He basically called him a fourth rate irrelevant comedy. I gotta say, when your parent company gives you $1.5 billion for a five year deal, you're maybe not so irrelevant or fourth rate. And that just shows how this has really gotten under their skin. The south park literally and figuratively showed the emperor had no clothes.
- [60:28]
Vaughn Hilliard
For better and for worse, we found like a smidgerine that we could share. Let me play the little clip that we've got from last night.
- [60:39]
Nicole Wallace
I didn't want to come back and.
- [60:41]
Glenn Thrush
Be in the school, but I had.
- [60:43]
Nicole Wallace
To because it was part of a lawsuit and the agreement with Paramount the president suing you?
- [60:50]
Glenn Thrush
The guy can do whatever he wants.
- [60:52]
Nicole Wallace
Now let someone back down. Okay, eat the bread. Eat the bread. You guys saw what happened to cvs. Yeah, well, guess who owns cvs.
- [61:01]
Glenn Thrush
Paramount.
- [61:02]
Nicole Wallace
You really want to end up the cold bear? You guys gotta stop being stupid.
- [61:08]
Vaughn Hilliard
We can't understand you. Just shut up.
- [61:11]
Nicole Wallace
We're going to get cancelled, you idiots.
- [61:17]
Vaughn Hilliard
I mean, Dominic, there's such an appetite for evidence that the media hasn't been cowed. And there's such an appetite for evidence in one direction or the other that Paramount isn't groveling. I mean, maybe that isn't even a debate anymore. It certainly appears that there are moves that. That they are trying to serve Donald Trump. Is. Is south park an anomaly? Is South Park a counterfactual? How much of this was intentional on Paramount park to clean up any reputational harm that the Colbert News and the 60 Minutes news caused? And how much of this is. They thought it was just South Park. Who would see it?
- [62:00]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I'll say this, Nicole. I think maybe with the exception of the Simpsons and maybe anything that Dick Wolfe makes on his Law and Order franchises, south park is one of the few parts of media content that actually does exist unto itself. They could have taken their party to somewhere else if Paramount hadn't coughed up the dough they wanted. So in a way, they had Paramount by the short and curlies here. They had to get their show on. Matt Stone and Trey Parker actually appearing at Comic Con this evening. So you clearly don't want them showing up in front of thousands with them dissing you. So I don't think Paramount had any choice here. They had to go with it. Unlike Stephen Colbert, where there was an argument to be made, and it's a financial one, whether or not you buy it or not, and the timing doesn't indicate it, but basically, Late night's been losing $40 million a year. It's not a franchise that many people watch, in fact, across all of them. And this was an inevitable change that was going to happen. They just handled it incredibly badly. This was something where this is a moneymaker for them. It's a huge moneymaker for them. It's a big draw for them. And they kind of had to swallow whatever Trey Parker and Matt Stone were going to serve up up. And they served up Donald Trump on a plate fully baked. That's just the reality of the economics of it. They're trying to close this deal. You know, the FCC are basically imminently going to close this deal now that CBS has paid up $16 million. And supposedly a side deal has been made for millions more in PSAs for Donald Trump, which is what the naked Donald Trump synthetic media, as they call it, AI, as the grown ups might call it, that shown in last night's south park, displayed and mocked unto itself. So there's a lot of moving parts here in a very political atmosphere where there's some serious big bucks. The Skydance merger with paramount is an $8 billion deal. So, you know, not Trump change, if you know what I mean. So I think here they're trying to cut it both ways. I think the hope is that this might give them back a little bit of spite and credibility. But to be honest, this is not the end of this. This is not the beginning of this. And, you know, once you get into a dust up with Trump, fists are gonna fly. It's inevitable. And I just think in some cases, finally someone's willing to step in the ring.
- [64:04]
Vaughn Hilliard
Yeah, I mean, Michael, I guess that's what makes it a top story. I mean, the media has been a story for all the wrong reasons for the last six months. It's been, as Timothy Snyder writes about and on tyranny, it's been obeying in advance. It's been a climate of fear. It's been.
- [64:22]
Nicole Wallace
I would just say, oh, go ahead, that's not necessary. That's not true of our deadline. And I don't think it's true of your deadline either.
- [64:28]
Vaughn Hilliard
I think that's right. But I think there have been plenty of examples that Trump at least could point to to say that the media has, has been cowed and has made deals and has bent the knee, as have universities, as have law firms. And so, Michael Grimbaum, I want you to weigh in on how you see this moment. And if last night south park changed how you see this moment.
- [64:50]
Jen Psaki
I was watching the reaction cascade across social media to south park last night, and the word that came to mind for me was catharsis. I think people on the left and Democrats were kind of yearning for someone to break the dam here and go after Trump in such a direct, just a way of mocking everything that he's been doing over the last few weeks, threatening to sue any media outlets that get in his way. And everything that's gone on with Stephen Colbert, one of the most popular figures on the left, all of a sudden mysteriously losing his perch as the highest rated host in Late Night. And I would actually go further. I think that the political right has claimed comedy as their own over the last few years. I feel that Trump and his acolytes have said that we're the party who have a sense of humor that woke liberals, are too serious, they're too earnest and even truly, Trump's use of podcasts during the presidential election, it was to project this image of I can take a joke, I'm easy, I can chat in a casual manner. It was so striking to me that he went after flagrant with this very stern and sort of like, oh, I'm so. Oh, how dare you make fun of me like this. That's exactly what Republicans and MAGA world were accusing Democrats of for years now. And see this sort of humor coming out of the left. To see Trump suddenly thrown off his game and unable to take a joke, unable to respond in a nimble way, I really think has sent him back on his hind heels. And it's really, as you mentioned, distinctive to me that he has not responded yet. We've not seen the truth social. We've not seen the midnight tweet going after Trey Parker and Matt Stone. And I'm curious if he will.
- [66:32]
Vaughn Hilliard
Well, I just want to put this out there. And if you, if you disagree, Michael, let me follow up with Michael first. Jump in. But I mean, this happened first. I mean, Joe Rogan and Andrew Schultz actually break with Trump in front of their massive podcast audiences before. And again, I understand there's, there's pipeline and there's production and I'm not saying one caused the other, but let me just show you what's happening in that space that you talked about. Here's Joe Rogan and Andrew Schultz. Andrew Schultz is from Today.
- [67:06]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, they can lie about all kinds of things. And this is Today with the Internet.
- [67:10]
Charlie Sykes
You know, like, look, where's the Epstein files?
- [67:12]
Nicole Wallace
Boo. Can't find them. Don't exist. Like they can get away with, man. Yeah. Here's the weirdest thing about it. Like Trump is usually so transactional with the base. The base asks for something, he listens. I would say he listens to the base way more than any politician that I've ever seen. There are certain politicians that might push back against their base cuz they're like, ah, this wouldn't really go along with policy that we want to do. Trump is like, hey, the base THINKS Vaccines are RFK. Get in there. January 6th vaccine. They want him out. They want him out. We're putting him out. And this, he is rebuking the base, like, almost like spitting in their face like they are asking for it. He campaigned on it. He puts Bongino and Cash in There, which might be the stupidest thing in the history of the world. Like, why would you put the two guys that have done nonstop pounded the pavement talking about how we're gonna expose this Epstein thing, and the second they get in there, like, you better shut the.
- [68:07]
Vaughn Hilliard
So, you know, one is a media story, the other is a political story about Trump's own coalition. And I wonder, Michael, your thoughts about what's happening in the much bellyhooed manosphere?
- [68:18]
Jen Psaki
Well, I think, as it always is with Trump, the political and the media story are the same. Trump, President Trump is an extremely skilled entertainer, and I would argue it's what made him, has made him so successful in his political career. But he's forgotten here one of the most important tenets of being an entertainer, which is your credibility with your audience matters more than anything else. These podcasters, yes, they supported Trump. They offered him their endorsements last year during the campaign, for the most part, they've been generally willing to show him some patience. But the Epstein files were so central to what Trump was arguing for. Not just the specific incident of Epstein and his supposed client list, but he represents the deep state. Epstein represents this elite that Donald Trump has pledged from day one to his supporters that he is going to root out and expose to the masses. And so when he, Trump, suddenly changed his tune. And I really think, especially when he had that cabinet meeting with Pan Bondi and he said there's nothing to say. See here, if you're a podcaster like Andrew Schultz or Joe Roken, you know, your audience is not going to accept that. You understand your audience in the manosphere, and their loyalty ultimately is to their listeners and to their viewers. And I think that President Trump miscalculated that in this instance.
- [69:37]
Vaughn Hilliard
There's so much more to get to. I need all of you to stick around. I want to pull Charlie into the conversation. I want to show you a moment that a lot of people think launches Trump's entire political career, and it's when he's being mocked. So this isn't an insignificant moment in the political story of Donald Trump. Also ahead for us, an alarming step forward in Trump's push for retribution and retaliation against his perceived political opponents and critics. The establishment of a task force that's been set up by the Justice Department to investigate President Barack Obama and his aides. There's some new reporting on that survey to tell you about. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [70:15]
Glenn Thrush
Today.
- [70:26]
Nicole Wallace
No one is happier. No one is prouder to put this.
- [70:29]
Charlie Sykes
Birth certificate matter to rest than the Donald.
- [70:34]
Harry Lippman
And that's because he can finally get.
- [70:36]
Charlie Sykes
Back to focus, focusing on the issues that matter, like, did we fake the moon landing?
- [70:46]
Harry Lippman
What really happened in Roswell?
- [70:50]
Nicole Wallace
And where are Biggie and Tupac?
- [71:04]
Vaughn Hilliard
All kidding aside, obviously, we all know.
- [71:06]
Nicole Wallace
About your credentials and breadth of experience.
- [71:14]
Vaughn Hilliard
We're back. We're back with Dominic, Michael and Charlie. I mean, Charlie. It is largely thought of as the fire. The rage of being mocked in the room erupts. President Obama was good at those. Most presidents are. Trump is not agile in comedy. He doesn't tell jokes. He doesn't. He's not really seen laughing at jokes, but he is being mocked. He is the butt of a lot of jokes being told by many prominent members of his own coalition right now.
- [71:46]
Harry Lippman
Well, this is also delicious, but I'm really glad you played that particular clip where it was pretty obvious they were laughing at Donald Trump. They were not laughing with him. And it's a reminder of how thin skinned he is. That Donald Trump, for all of the bravado and all of the bluster, just hates being laughed at. He hates being the butt of jokes. If you look at his social media, his work lately, it is creating this fantasy universe in which he is the master of the universe and everyone adores him and he is Superman when in fact he's a ridiculous figure. Which is why this satire cuts so deeply. And Michael made a really good point. I think that that one of the things that the right had capitalized on, certainly Donald Trump, was that he was willing to go with the joke, that he got to the joke that their critique about wokeness was that it was humorless. That's not funny. We are the people who are in on this. Well, now it's turning around. Donald Trump has lost the plot on Epstein and now he is losing the culture on all of this. It's also really, really striking and I'm really glad you went through this. The sort of the anti cbs, anti ABC vibe that you're getting out of south park, by which I mean they are doing exactly the opposite of so many entities in the corporate media. Instead of appeasing Donald Trump, instead of tacking their sales, instead of bending the knee, what are they doing? They're just dumping it all. I mean, they are just unloading. And in fact, when you were introducing this, I thought one of the most delicious aspects was the quote from Deadline about Donald Trump seething about South Park. Because I'm thinking, is there anything more interesting than imagining Donald Trump sitting there in the darkness watching South Park. I mean, did we all know that Donald Trump would watch south park and imagine what he thinks when he's watching that sort of thing? Now, a normal president would laugh this off, ignore this, would. Would brush it off. Donald Trump is incapable of doing that. And that clip you just showed reminds us that Donald Trump was so upset by those jokes by Barack Obama that a lot of people believe that's why he ran for president. That's why we are in this moment right now. So it is very interesting that he hasn't had anything to say about it yet. I emphasize the yet. Set your watches. He will not be able to restrain himself. But good on south park for doing what so many powerful rich entities in this country had the opportunity to do but wouldn't do, which is basically, you know, say, no, I'm sorry, Donald, you are the joke.
- [74:33]
Vaughn Hilliard
I mean, Dominic, jump back in and tell me, do you see this as the end of the beginning of the Trump story, where people were tepid, or the beginning of the end because there's only one South Park.
- [74:49]
Nicole Wallace
Well, look, Nicole, I think the amount of times people have written Donald Trump's political obituary or financial obituary, that kind of. It's more than two hands and two sets of fingers, if you know what I mean. I will say this. I think that Trump's talent of trying to grab him by the Joe Rogan might have reached its expiration date. But I don't think this is necessarily over. If south park can be what breaks the dam and begins a flood, that flood has to come almost more from the right now. I want to pick up on something Michael said, because I think it was very, very interesting. The interesting thing about south park here that makes what Trey Parker and Matt Stone did unique is they're equal opportunist defenders. So if you're looking for actual bipartisanship, south park kind of provides. Has been providing it over the decades. They'll go after progressives, they'll go after everyone, anyone they think is pompous. The thing is, Donald Trump nicely fulfills that, so they go after him hard. Whether or not this is sustainable is the next question whether or not this joke actually continues to be funny. One of the hallmarks, I think Mark Twain said it, but I might be paraphrasing or getting it wrong, of any human being is a sense of humor. It's one of the most attractive qualities to anyone. The ability to poke fun at yourself is also one of those. Trump clearly lacks that in a genuine level. It feels so uncomfortable and cringy when he does do it? Can he take the joke? Can he roll with it? Can he be a Gerald Ford and appear on an SNL or stuff like that? I don't think so. I don't think he's capable of that. What I think he's capable of is what he's been capable of for many, many years now. And what the nationalists and the white supremacists love, which is grievance, resistance and victimhood. And I think that that's what he'll come out with here. His White House came out swinging. I think he's gonna come out with a little bit of poor me. And that's kind of the saddest of the south park sad scenarios.
- [76:39]
Vaughn Hilliard
You know what's interesting, Michael, in South park is it's all of his. I'm trying not to be cringy here. It's all of his political soft spots. It's all of his vulnerabilities. I mean, we all know about the size of Marco Rubio's hands because Donald Trump is obsessed with the size of things. And he took that debate stage and hands didn't mean hands at all. But he told the country and the world he's never had any complaints in that department. I mean, he's so obsessed. And so south park went in issue after issue. I mean, the naked, fleshy bot. I mean, the whole thing. And I wonder if you have any reporting or if you're following any reporting to suggest that there'll be a price to pay for that.
- [77:19]
Jen Psaki
Yeah, well, actually, a little history lesson. I have a new book called Empire of the Elite about Vanity Fair magazine and others. And Graydon Carter, who was a longtime editor, he coined the term short fingered vulgarian about Donald Trump inside Spy magazine back in 1989, I think it was. And that insult has etched itself into Donald Trump's brain. And everything that happened with that Rubio debate moment about his hands, it all stems from this one phrase that was published in a New york City magazine 20, 30 years ago. So with this, what happened on south park last night, these are the sorts of comic insults that etch themselves into Donald Trump's psyche. And they, as you said, they played on every single one of his vulnerability. It was really striking there. We're gonna have to see if how he recovers from it.
- [78:10]
Vaughn Hilliard
We'll all be watching. I think this media moment has focused the mind and in part because comedy is such as, I think you've said it's catharsis, but it's also news. It's also news because so Many people have been frightened and cowed in this moment. I'd love to keep this conversation going. Dominic and Michael, please come back early in October, often, especially as this story proceeds. Charlie sticks around for the hour. When we come back, a DOJ whistleblower making it clear that showing loyalty to Donald Trump is all that matters in his second term as president. We'll play for you what he had to say next.
- [78:52]
Nicole Wallace
It's pretty clear they fired me as a warning shot to the doj, to the civil division in particular. Here's Ariz Rouvaney. Here's a guy who defended everything in the first Trump administration. Here's a guy that nobody thinks is some kind of partisan actor, and we're going to fire him. And if you guys want to follow in his footsteps and, you know, not play ball, not, you know, pick loyalty to the president's agenda over your duty of candidate, the courts will fire you, too. We'll take away your livelihood. We'll put you in the possible position of choosing ethics or salary.
- [79:27]
Vaughn Hilliard
Consider, consider the source there. That's coming straight from someone who, in his own telling, defended all of Donald Trump's policies during the first term and who has lived and worked inside Trump's Justice Department in the second term. That was DOJ whistleblower Erez Reveni. And his warning that things are much different this time around is on full display now. Donald Trump is in the midst of one of his most damaging scandals of the second term, and he is reverting to one of his favorite attack lines as a distraction. He's baselessly accusing former President Barack Obama of treason. But this time around, the people surrounding Donald Trump seem willing to parrot and more alarming act on that accusation. The Justice Department has announced a task force to look into Donald Trump's unsubstantiated allegation that the Obama administration manipulated evidence to prove Russia boosted his campaign in 2016. Based on reporting in the New York Times, quote, the move came hours after Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence, ramped up her attacks on Mr. Obama, releasing a document that she said undermined the conclusion of his intelligence agencies that Russia favored the election of Mr. Trump in 2016. The Times adds this, quote, none of the new information changes the fundamental view that Russia meddled in the election and that Mr. Putin hoped to damage Hillary Clinton. Joining our conversation is co founder and executive director at Protect Democracy, Ian Bassin. And Charlie Sykes is still with us. Ian, your reaction to the reporting, and then we'll go deeper in the why this matters, and where are we in our march toward autocracy?
- [81:18]
Glenn Thrush
I mean, first thought has been there, done that, right? Donald Trump tried to investigate all of this during his first term, and he did have relatively pliant figures. He appointed had his. Had his attorney general appoint a special counsel, John Durham, to look into all this. And Durham came up with bupkis. So did the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, when it looked at whether there was anything there. So we've tried this. There's nothing there. And on top of that, I recall a certain former president at one point arguing that presidents are absolutely immune for acts undertaken while they were in office. I have to remember who that president was who made that argument. So, yeah, that's what's going on here. As you said, we got two things that are really happening, right? One is distraction, and the other is projection. Distraction, obviously, from the Epstein mess and then projection, right? And this is a favorite tactic of Donald Trump's because, you know, look, if you show up at a party and you're wearing the wrong thing, what do you hope? You hope someone else walks into the party also wearing the wrong thing so you don't feel so alone, right? And Donald Trump essentially showed up to the party of a second term wearing the garb of an orange suit instead of a business suit. And he would feel a lot better in all those sort of former presidential photographs if other former presidents were wearing orange suits as well. And that's what's going on here. But let's be honest, right? Barack Obama is never going to wear an orange suit. The worst he's going to wear is a tan suit.
- [82:48]
Vaughn Hilliard
What is the point, then, in relitigating the unanimous conclusion of the intelligence community of John Durham, who spent close to $8 million in two years investigating the investigators, and Marco Rubio, who said it was the most comprehensive investigation into the attack on the 2016 election and concluded that Russia interfered and that the assessment that Putin preferred Trump was accurate. I mean, what is the point?
- [83:25]
Glenn Thrush
I mean, look, the only moment in the last several weeks when Donald Trump has been able to reunite his base in the midst of the Epstein conspiracy crisis that he. He has basically created for himself was when he rallied his base against the Wall Street Journal, right? There's nothing that unites a coalition like a common enemy that worked. It worked for about 24 or 36 hours, and then more shoes dropped, and he was back in the mess of appearing to have covered up the fact that he was told by his attorney general that he appeared multiple times in the Epstein files, notwithstanding the fact that he had denied that. And so he's going back to the well for a favorite common enemy of the base that brought him to the White House, and that's former President Barack Obama. Because ultimately, Donald Trump has really been only able to offer his base a whole bunch of things to be angry against and hate as opposed to actually solving the problems that they elected him to solve. Lowering prices. Right. Sort of solving the sort of costs of daily living that really were the driving and animating force of the election. He's been unable to solve that. And so he's trying to revive the common enemies again. It's not working. It's why today he's down to about 37% approval in the latest poll, which is the second lowest since he really came on the political scene.
- [84:40]
Vaughn Hilliard
And he's wearing a hard hat, so we know when he goes to the costume drawer that there's always a political controversy. But I want to bring Charlie, and I have to sneak in a quick break before we do that. We'll all be right back.
- [84:59]
Ian Bassin
Even if Donald Trump doesn't take those.
- [85:01]
Nicole Wallace
Words treason seriously, his supporters do.
- [85:03]
Ian Bassin
And they've reached out and said they're.
- [85:05]
Nicole Wallace
Going to put me and my wife in front of firing squads. They've threatened us.
- [85:08]
Ian Bassin
We've had to bring restraining orders against these people.
- [85:11]
Nicole Wallace
It's extremely serious and serious for him to do that against a former president who already has faced any number of death threats. And I would add to that, Nicole, that at the end of the day.
- [85:23]
Ian Bassin
Most of his supporters don't realize how.
- [85:25]
Nicole Wallace
Ridiculous these words are. It's absurd to the core, but it forces people to have to defend themselves in ways they never expected.
- [85:36]
Vaughn Hilliard
Ian and Charlie are back. I guess. Charlie, the other side of this is that, yes, on Earth one, it's ridiculous. It's projection, it's deflection. And it is also true that in his sort of sphere of influence, there can be an unstable person. There are people who believe him. There are people whose information diet that isn't pierced with reality. It's a very dangerous thing to be talking about and doing.
- [86:02]
Harry Lippman
It is very dangerous. And I just wanted to underline what Ian had to say. Look, I don't want to relitigate this or go down the rabbit hole, because this is all about the distraction. This is all about not talking about the Epstein files. I think everybody understands that. Having said that, it can be absurd and terrifying at the same time when you're throwing around words like treason. I think it was Garry Kasparov who said, you know, it's all fun and games until you start arresting Barack Obama. You know, you can, you know, make it a, you know, Internet meme or put out TikTok videos of it, but then you've thrown this out into the universe, and the question is, you know, who is going to take it seriously? Will the base begin to demand not just the red meat, but the whole stake? If, in fact, Barack Obama is guilty of treason, Right. Then why has he not been arrested?
- [86:51]
Nicole Wallace
Why would.
- [86:52]
Harry Lippman
Why won't they name a special prosecutor? Well, there's reasons why Donald Trump doesn't want to actually litigate something like this, but we have to hold those ideas in our heads at the same time, which is that this is deeply not serious, because there is no question about what happened with the Russian interference you had. This has been investigated to death. To even take it seriously is to take the bait. On the other hand, we are talking about the man who sits in the Oval Office, who has control over nuclear weapons and has the power to destroy people's lives. So when he is talking about this, when he is talking about using terms like treason, no matter how reckless and absurd it might be, there are words do have consequences. So we're in this balancing moment, and I think I mentioned last week on this program, we're in a very, very dangerous phase because Donald Trump is sitting there in the Oval Office and he's pressing all the buttons of distraction that have worked for him in the past. He's riffing through the playbook of all the things that he could talk about to change the subject, and none of it has worked. So you feel it, it does feel as if he keeps escalating, moving up and up the ladder. And who is the ultimate enemy? What is the ultimate, you know, chum to throw out there, other than I'm going after Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. It is like going back to the origin story, the, you know, playing the. The greatest hits. But again, a desperate president can be a very dangerous president.
- [88:21]
Vaughn Hilliard
You know, on this topic of weaponization, I mean, we don't know what we're not seeing. And so we don't know. I know Trump invited the new IRS commissioner to the West Wing. That's not a typical practice. Donald Trump has made it the brand of the FBI and the Department of Justice to inspire, stall his own personal defense lawyers in the highest post. We don't know what. We don't know about people being harassed by various government agencies. And I wonder, you know, there's. What Trump's talking about, prosecuting and arresting President Obama. But there's a whole nother level of harassment and investigation and interrogation underneath that that I wonder if we'll ever see.
- [89:12]
Glenn Thrush
That's right. And I think that's why Charlie's right to say Charlie. I was going to say Charlie. You're correct to point out that there's both an absurdity to this and Nicole, to your point, a very serious aspect to it, because the pattern, the cycle, the vicious cycle of authoritarian consolidation that you see in all the countries that have these sort of tyrant autocratic leaders come to power is it's sort of four steps where they start with retaliating against their opponents, right. And that creates this climate of fear that you note, right. Where people are not sure who's being investigated. And the stuff that Miles Taylor talked about. And when you have a climate of fear, institutions fail to do their job checking power.
- [89:53]
Vaughn Hilliard
Why?
- [89:53]
Glenn Thrush
Because institutions are not marble buildings fronted by ionic columns. They're people. And if people are afraid, they will step back. Recall Mitt Romney. Lisa Murkowski have talked about the fact that there's fear on the Hill and members of Congress not voting a certain way because they're afraid for the safety of their families. And when institutions fail to check power, authoritarian power is consolidated because there's not a check on abuses. And that cycle speeds up and speeds up and speeds up. And that is how power devolves into authoritarianism. And that's the real serious aspect of this. And the good news is that there is a playbook in reverse. Not a vicious cycle, but a virtuous cycle that works the other way, where pro democracy actors and brave people on the front lines. Here's the veil of invincibility, right? They get wins, right? I'm proud of my colleagues at Protect Democracy. I think I've won four lawsuits in the last week and a half or so. When you get those wins, you create a sense of possibility. And a broad coalition can then step in and join with those frontline actors and give those people in institutions in the Department of Justice, in the courts, in the Congress the sense that they can actually do their jobs, that checks abuses and that cycle then reinforces itself. And you have the check and balance system that the founders designed. And that's what we've got to do. We need actors right now to step up and oppose these abuses and be the brave ones. And those are typically the least powerful actors in society. And they need to be joined by some of the most powerful actors. I would point the former US Ambassador to Hungary, David Pressman had a really important piece in the New York Times yesterday saying that it's the elites, it's the powerful actors who are not meeting the moment. The grassroots actors are. And we need some of the powerful actors to start reversing that cycle and getting us into the virtuous one.
- [91:35]
Vaughn Hilliard
I mean, Charlie, I keep thinking of Ewan Wilder, the baseball coach who I had on this program, who defended his kids at a batting practice and reminded them of their rights. It's why the comedy, it's why culture matters. I mean, that cycle needs something to run on. And it feels like a squeaky wheel, but one that's starting to turn.
- [91:55]
Harry Lippman
No, no, I mean, you're right. And of course, this is where comedy and satire have played a role throughout history in, in taking down authoritarianism. But, you know, to Ian's point, you know, don't wait until you have the tanks in the street. But they don't need to actually arrest people. They just need to make people afraid. And it is that miasma of fear that people will agree in advance because they just don't know. But laughing at them is a very, very powerful weapon.
- [92:26]
Vaughn Hilliard
Ian and Charlie, thank you so much for having this conversation with us today.
- [92:30]
Harry Lippman
Thank you.
- [92:31]
Vaughn Hilliard
To be continued. A quick break for us. We'll be right back. In a truly unprecedented moment for American higher education, Columbia University will pay $200 million in a fine to restore hundreds of millions of dollars in research grants that were suspended by the Trump administration and settle allegations from the Trump administration that it violated anti discrimination discrimination laws. Columbia also pledged to follow laws banning the consideration of race in admissions and hiring. The agreement comes as NBC News learns that Columbia disciplined more than 70 students for participating in two student led protests last year, with punishments ranging from probation to revoking degrees and expulsions. A professor at Columbia Law School had this to say about the deal. Quote, in short, the agreement gives legal form to an extortion scheme, the first of its kind that defies the relevant statutes as well as the constitutional separation of powers and the First Amendment. We'll stay on top of this story and any fallout for you. Another break for us. We'll be right back. A quick note before we go. This week's episode of the Best People podcast is one of my favorites. It's our conversation with actor Jackson Jeff Daniels. You can watch on YouTube or download wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you'll listen. HE SINGS TO US. Let us know what you think of all of it. Thanks to all of you for letting us into your homes. Today, we are grateful.
- [94:01]
Nicole Wallace
Sometimes an identity threat is a ring of professional hackers. And sometimes it's an overworked accountant who forgot to encrypt their connection while sending bank details.
- [94:10]
Glenn Thrush
I need a coffee.
- [94:12]
Nicole Wallace
And you need Lifelock. Because your info is in endless places. It only takes one mistake to expose you to identity theft. Lifelock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Save up to 40% your first year at LifeLock. Com. SpecialOffer Terms apply.