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Deadline: White House
“The end of Viktor Orban’s 16-year reign”
00:42:10
Nicolle Wallace covers far-right Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s stunning loss to his opponent Péter Magyar in the most recent Parliamentary elections. Orban’s loss is a stunning rebuke of authoritarianism on a global scale.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:30]
Podcast Promoter
MSNOW presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, tech and media journalist Kara Swisher.
- [00:40]
Kara Swisher
Longevity should be about not how long we're going to live, but how well we live in the time we have here. And that means better health too, and better outcomes.
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Podcast Promoter
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- [01:05]
Nicole Wallace
Very excited. Very excited. I, I'm, I was waiting 16 years for, for this day. I don't know. I, I, I hope now change and would change. But not only in Hungary. Around the world. This not normal now.
- [01:23]
Isaac Stanley Becker
Yet all the opportunities to make Hungary great again. This is a very. Come on, freeze now. But he missed this chance, definitely.
- [01:35]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again, Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. At times over the past few years, in those darkest moments, it's felt all but inevitable, that methodic creeping descent into an authoritarian future, not just here in the United States, but around the world. Today, though, just as Donald Trump's vice grip over our American system starts to slip away, people halfway around the world are likewise rejecting those autocratic impulses and tendencies and embracing, or rather re embracing, a bold new vision. This weekend, against all odds, voters in Hungary ended the 16 year reign of far right Prime Minister Viktor Orban. Among the reasons it was such a stunning result. And tells us, tell us if this sounds at all familiar to you. Orban manipulated the country's election system and initiated a takeover of its media outlets. And yet, and yet this was the scene last night. Among the shouts from the crowd, quote, russians go home. Indeed, Vladimir Putin was an advocate for Orban. So too was Donald Trump. We even went so far as to dispatch his vice president, J.D. vance, to campaign in Hungary last week for Orban. Our friend Ann Applebaum put it like this, quote. Orban's loss brings to an end the assumption of inevitability that has pervaded the Maga movement as well as the belief also present in Russian President Vladimir Putin's rhetoric, that illiberal parties are somehow destined not just to win, but to hold power forever because they have the support of, quote, unquote, real people. As it turns out, history doesn't work like that. Real people grow tired of their rulers. Old ideas become stale. Younger people question orthodoxy. Illiberalism leads to corruption. And if Orban can lose, then his Russian and American admirers can lose, too. To be clear, Orban's replacement is no liberal. He's a center right politician. And while he will likely scale back some of his predecessors more autocratic policies, some things, like Hungary's approach to immigration, will likely stay more or less the same. But the point is this made so eloquently by historian Tim Snyder. Quote, just as Hungary once offered the international oligarchical far right the confidence that a formula had been found, it now offers to men such as Vance and Trump the anxiety that voting might actually make a difference, that democracy might actually turn out to be more than a slogan, that unpredictable change is still possible, that the future is open. That is where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite experts and friends joining us from Budapest. Staff writer for the Atlantic, Isaac Stanley Becker is here. Also joining us, senior political analyst, our dear friend Alex Wagner. She reported on the dismantling of democracy in Hungary under Orban for her podcast Trump Land. She's now a contributing host on Pod Save America and the host of the podcast Runaway Country. Also joining us, our dear friend, political analyst, former Senator Claire McCaskill. Isaac, because you're there, I'm going to start with you. Tell me what you're hearing and seeing and reporting.
- [04:37]
Isaac Stanley Becker
It's been an extraordinary 24 hours. I think the scenes on the streets really say it all in terms of the jubilation, the euphoria we're seeing, seeing spoke to people last night and early this morning who felt as if this, they had taken their last chance to really step back from the abyss, that if Orban had been reelected, that that would have been it for democracy in Hungary, that he would have continued this kind of consolidation of power, the entrenchment of these patronage networks, crony capitalism, and they would have lost their chance. But they took this chance and as you said, despite the odds, really showed that voting is still even in a very unfair system.
- [05:22]
Nicole Wallace
Isaac, what impact of any did J.D. vance's visit have?
- [05:28]
Isaac Stanley Becker
You know, this was a subject of so much fascination and chatter here. You know, in recent days, I spoke to some Western diplomats in Budapest who speculated that it may have backfired for a number of reasons. I mean, the Trump administration's war in Iran is deeply unpopular in Europe. And I think there was also a suggestion made to me that welcoming any foreign leader could have backfired because the whole basis of Orban's campaign was Hungarian sovereignty and nationalism. So why is he campaigning with the vice president of a foreign country? We don't have polling that fleshes this out, but we certainly know that it did not pull Orban over the finish line, which is what Trump and Vance wanted. But I think that we also. It's been, you know, a really hectic couple days with the, with the results last night and the whole system change. But just to step back and just, you know, remember how unusual that moment was to see J.D. vance here. I mean, American vice presidents and presidents just have not done this. They have not traveled to foreign countries at the expense of US Taxpayers and campaigned so overtly for, you know, politicians in foreign countries, and especially not politicians who also enjoy the support of the Kremlin. It's just, it was frankly, a surreal scene.
- [06:45]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Alex, it's like the axis of Putin backed autocrats. And to, to make that such a public brand and then to have it backfire, it's like the jokes write themselves. How politically toxic is JD Vance? He's so toxic, he dislodged a Putin aligned 16 year autocrat from Hungary.
- [07:05]
Alex Wagner
Yes. I mean, I don't think J.D. vance helped matters. I don't think the war helped matters. But, you know, Nicole, I was there last year and this is a testament to the tireless and brave work of journalists who basically left consolidated oligarchical state propaganda outlets and formed independent news media outlets and continued the brave work of reporting on the corruption, the breathtaking corruption in Orban's Hungary. It is the work of activists who are out on the streets every week protesting at their own peril amid swarms of riot police, you know, every week saying, we will not stand for this. This is not democracy. We want freedom. Young people who refuse to get up, give up. You know, people who are advocates for a more transparent governance, who are monitoring corruption in terms of the sort of the, the purse strings that, that Orban controlled and consolidated when he came back to power. I mean, this is the work of grassroots networks that have been operating honestly without a lot of money, a lot of attention, and I think a lot of not, not a ton of hope as far as the international community was concerned. But they kept at it. And without their work, without those foundational efforts, this victory wouldn't have been possible. Magiar, I think, seized on really important issues like the quality of healthcare in Hungary, the economy and Orban's abysmal shepherding of it, and education, which is also an issue in Hungary. But really the people that primed the pump, if you will, the people that did the hard work of helping him claim victory, were all these ordinary, everyday Hungarian citizens who just refused to give up. And it is, I think, their win more than almost anybody else's.
- [08:50]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, it's impossible, right? As an American desperately rowing toward the pro democratic forces in our country to prevail, to resist the temptation to ask what worked. So I won't, I mean, Alex, just say a little more about what you started to say about how the media bravely covered the corruption outside of the state. Takeover of media.
- [09:15]
Alex Wagner
Yeah, well, I mean, Orban through his cronies basically consolidated or shut down all the national news outlets the country and turned them into state mouthpieces. And journalists resigned en masse and they decided to form their own independent outlets like Telex is one that, that is super important in terms of independent investigative journalism. Direct 36 these are organizations that were, you know, public, funded by the donations from interested readers. And these journalists did real investigative work that actually I do think turned the dial up, turned the heat up on Orban in a meaningful way. You had people that worked for organizations like K Monitor that monitor the just insane levels of corruption at every level of the, of the Hungarian government and did so for years, for years they documented this stuff and they also showed hung the Hungarian public what it was like to have functioning local level governance so that they could contrast what it looked like to have a functioning government with one that was completely beholden to corrupt actors. And you know, I mean, then there's just the people that followed the followed, stayed interested and stayed awake that were just normal Hungarian citizens who refused to refuse to give in to Orban's iron will. And I think, you know, we, we can blame JD Vance and Trump and the war and all that, but this really is a collective effort. A collective effort that is, should give all of us in the United States who want to turn off the news and just forget about what's happening and focus on our own discreet lives, which is an understandable self instinct of self preservation. This should give us pause because actually staying alert to the degradation of our democracy. And that's what Hungarians did. And look at outcome over there.
- [10:59]
Nicole Wallace
Claremont Gaskill 65% of Americans disapprove of Donald Trump and on the sort of psychology of power, on the ferocity of political and prosecutorial retribution. Trump still has a stranglehold over every elected Republican in the country, with the exception of Thomas Massie and I guess, ex office holders, people like Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney. I can't count five. What is your sense of how the Democratic Party can take the best lessons from what is happening over a much longer experiment, if you will, in autocratic rule and apply them ahead of the midterms in the next presidential.
- [11:47]
Claire McCaskill
Well, first, I think the most encouraging thing about this is the propaganda didn't work. Imagine the amount of heft that was behind the state media in Hungary. And I cannot even explain how they trashed the guy that won. I mean, he was everything from a pedophile to a thief to, I mean, all of it. They said things that without any factual basis and none of it worked. So that's encouraging. And the Democrats should take encouragement from that and everyone should support independent journalists also in this country. But Democrats need to understand Orban lost because he was deeply, deeply unpopular. And I think the guy who beat him understood that all of his policies weren't unpopular. He was just deeply unpopular. And we have the same situation in America now. So I think it's really important that the Democrats let that simmer Trump's unpopularity because he's now kind of in a free fall. He's doing really stupid stuff. I mean, the fact that he took down his picture of him as Jesus as quickly as he did, that is not the Trump we know. He clearly is off his game. So let that stew. And Democrats need to stay focused like a laser on how to disrupt the status quo in a way that reassures Americans they're looking out for them, for the families that can't make it all come out even at the end of the month, for the families that are going into debt on credit cards just to buy their medicine. There are literally 40% of America is living paycheck to paycheck right now. That's what the Democrats need to stay focused and not get distracted. Yes, it's so tempting just to hammer Trump all day long, but they really need to stay focused on the laser that they are an alternative to somebody who's deeply unpopular that will in fact, deliver some results for Americans who are so frustrated right now with everybody that's in government.
- [13:44]
Nicole Wallace
You know, it's interesting, Isaac, I mean, Alex and Claire are sort of both getting at the the autocrat or the autocrat wannabe in Trump's Case it's the personal unpopularity and the personal enrichment. And Donald Trump has always been a grifter. In his first term, Donald Trump had a hotel and everyone stayed there, but the economy was healthier. Is there a parallel between the economic realities for people in Hungary and the downfall of their autocratic leader? Can you just take me through sort of quality of life issues and how they played in this election?
- [14:21]
Isaac Stanley Becker
I think there is. And something that really reminded me of a refrain you hear a lot in the US about the corruption or the self dealing is this assumption that that's just the way politics works, that people who are in politics or people who are in government, this is baked in. And that voters expect that from their elected leaders. And I did hear that among voters in Hungary as a, you know, and a similarity with the US But I think that when it really began to bite was when the economy stopped working for them. So they cared much more about the fact that the prime minister son in law is one of the wealthiest people in the country or his childhood friend who is a former gas retrofitter is now a billionaire. They care much more about that when they are facing higher prices. They can't make ends meet when they have to bring toilet paper to the hospital because the health care system is in such bad shape. So I think, you know, maybe, unfortunately those kind of galling examples of corruption have to start to bite for individual people in order for them to be, you know, electorally powerful. I also think that we're just seeing the limits of a kind of politics where you can wave away corruption by pointing at culture war issues. So it just became less and less persuasive to pretend that there was this horde of immigrants about to overrun the country country or that trans people were, you know, menacing Hungarian citizens left and right. Because I think people just understood that that didn't reflect their reality and that the, the poor economic conditions they were living in matter much more. I mean, why should Hungary have lost out on economic opportunities that are available to neighboring Romania? I think this just became utterly galling to people here and they realized they had to make a change.
- [16:20]
Nicole Wallace
You know, it's so interesting, Alex, and this issue of cultural wedges that have been deployed effectively by maga. It's always sort of an overread mandate because for those issues to resonate, you can't be pulling up to $6 gas and then, you know, go cancel your summer vacation, feel insecure about the economy and then unsure about your planned, you know, DIY renovations because you're sure if the lumber from Canada is going to be at Home Depot over the weekend. I mean, all of the pillars that Trump, you know, like Jenga, has sort of pulled out of the tower of the economy, first with tariffs and then with the war and now with the blockade announced over the weekend, have weakened his own ability to steal from the country and enrich himself and his sons. Another interesting parallel.
- [17:10]
Alex Wagner
Yeah. Although don't put anything past him in terms of his ability to steal from the country. But I agree with you. You know, throwing out shiny objects, vilifying trans people or going after woke libs isn't going to fly when people can't afford to go on summer vacation or drive to Disneyland or whatever they're planning to do in their normal everyday lives. Similarly, you know, Magyar, the person that is likely to become the next leader of Hungary, crisscross the country, going to both urban and rural parts, leaving no stone unturned, not talking about social issues at all, but really focusing on those three pillars of healthcare, the economy and education. Right. And lest we overdraw parallels for what Democrats should be doing, I think it's, you know, a testament to being aware that the most central issues to people's everyday lives are the things that move them in elections. Hungary is the size of New Jersey. So, you know, it's not the same as the United States. But I do think in the way that we should have seen lessons in Brexit, it's probably worth seeing some lessons in Hungary as well.
- [18:08]
Nicole Wallace
All right, no one's going anywhere. When we come back, how this brand and Trump's brand here at home has made the Republican Party suddenly so very politically toxic. There's new reason for Democrats to feel optimistic, but their bid to take control of Congress is the voices criticizing Donald Trump and those who enable him grow louder and come from a broader and broader swath of our political spectrum. We'll tell you about it next. Also ahead, much, much more. Devin White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go any.
- [18:44]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House. And I reported on it.
- [18:53]
Michael Snell
And now we're friends and colleagues.
- [18:55]
Alex Wagner
And on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
- [19:00]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.
- [19:07]
Podcast Promoter
Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.
- [19:16]
Nicole Wallace
Between the Bruce Springsteen concert and the Winter Olympics, you're starting to feel a vibe shift in America's politics or our public consciousness, at least as it relates to this political moment. You are not alone. This morning we learned the Cook Political Report, among the most respected measures or gauges for these sorts of things, elevated Democrats chances of taking control of the Senate in November. Their latest projection shows four states in the process of moving leftward. They are North Carolina, Georgia, Ohio and Nebraska. All of them shifted in the Democrats direction. Meanwhile, we're monitoring what appears to be increased courage or openness to criticizing Donald Trump and his allies in the media and business world. Today, more than 1,000 writers, actors and directors publicly signed onto a letter expressly objecting to Paramount's acquisition of Warner Brothers Discovery. It's a move that might harm Hollywood and empower Trump's allies. They say if you've seen a movie or a TV show in the past 30 years, you'd recognize some of these names. Ben Stiller, Don Cheadle, Glenn Close. The list goes on and on. We're back with Alex Isaac and Claire. Claire, the story of the first year of Trump was what Tim Snyder writes on page one of On Tyranny. It was a story of obeying in advance. I mean, Donald Trump's efforts at political retribution failed 100% of the time. Couldn't indict Comey, couldn't invite Tish. James has really struck out. But the fear it struck in the minds of prominent law firms, prominent universities and prominent people was undeniable and really depressing. That seems to be starting to reverse itself and it tracks with the political direction of the voters. What are your thoughts on how to sustain that and build on that?
- [21:07]
Claire McCaskill
Well, I think the mistakes he's making, this ill advised war without a real purpose or without real objective goals that can be accomplished, the tariffs, his love affair with tariffs and what that has caused in terms of his popularity around inflation and the economy, I think all of this is contributing to a newfound breadth of courage in a lot of places. And frankly, history is not going to be kind to the law firms and to the academic institutions, to everyone was so afraid of mentioning anywhere in their charter or bylaws that they thought it was a good idea to include all kinds of people in their companies or their organizations. You know, this idea that everyone's scared to death to speak out on behalf of inclusivity, it's not going to be good in history. And I do think that the fact that the propaganda by the state controlled media in Hungary that failing to deliver any kind of political win for Orban really needs to strike home with the people who have any fear of Brendan Carr and the FCC and certainly the news organizations in this country. It is time for the editorial boards, it is time for the journalists. It is time for the people who run news organizations to quit hiding under their desks and report the news straight and factual. Because if they do, they're going to start covering the fact that the President is not well, that he's posting pictures of him as Jesus Christ and staying up all night to put nonsense on social media. This is stuff that should be covered by everybody. There should be a 60 minute story about Trump's mental health. Now, I'm not holding my breath for that, but certainly it is time for everyone to come out of the shadows. And by the way, wouldn't it be nice if a little of that happened in the halls of Congress? Point.
- [23:05]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Alex, I interviewed Kara Swisher on this and I specifically asked her about cbs. And I used to fret that they were destroying CBS because I watched the Sunday morning show and I love it and I was sad they were destroying it. Kara said, so what? I mean, I think the global pattern of state run media is that its brand is toxic. It is not. I mean, the reason Joe Rogan has 3 million weekly listeners is because to his listeners at the beginning it felt subversive. Now it polls as one of the top three least attractive qualities for a woman in a man they might date. It's incredible polling that I saw. I think the only two things more unpopular or unattractive are like living at home or not having a job in your 30s. I mean, it is now a dating hurdle to listen to these MAGA associated media outlets. And I wonder, to your very first point, top of the hour, if this isn't just the, you know, either the red flag in front of the bull for independent media to just go, go, go and go grab the audience, go grab the viewers, go grab the reader.
- [24:11]
Alex Wagner
I mean, I speak to you as a podcaster, right? The time is now. The time is now. The vanguard of culture is where it is, despite whatever sort of Sisyphean tasks Trump and his allies want to undertake. The reality is, like, who wants to be on the side of Barry Weiss and Trump in a Jesus costume? People want to be outside of don Cheadle and J.J. abrams. Like, that's where the culture's at. Like, good luck to you, sir, building an entertainment empire in your image. I mean, it's the pathos of that. It almost makes you feel sorry for them. It's so pathetic. And I want to say one thing in addition to this, because I think the Senate races are super meaningful and it is a testament to the atrophy of the Republican Party. But also, and nobody knows this better than Claire McCaskill, the people the Democrats are running in Ohio, Sherrod Brown in North Carolina, Roy Roy Cooper in Georgia, John Ossif, they are all great candidates and they are ready to reap the rewards of a destroyed Republican Party because they have real electoral charm, charisma and a record. And they are each right for the audience of their respective states. That is a powerful combination. And so I would never be one to get people whipped up into a frenzy about Democrats retaking the Senate. But man, looking at that landscape, I'd rather, again, I'd rather be with J.J. abrams and Roy Cooper and John Ossoff and Sherrod Brown and Don Cheadle as opposed to Donald Trump, his withered party, a Jesus costume on the Internet, and Bari Weiss like, It's not even J.D.
- [25:47]
Nicole Wallace
vance. I mean, Isaac. I guess it brings me back to, I think if we look back at this moment in history, the response from the people of Minneapolis to the killing of two American citizens on the street streets is the closest moment we've had in the second Trump term to what we saw on the streets of Hungary. And I wonder if you see that parallel or if you think that's over torqued.
- [26:14]
Isaac Stanley Becker
Well, I think that there's a important lesson to be drawn from the kind of popular mobilization and action we've seen on the streets. I think in conversations here about what was going to happen in Hungary and was this going to be a fair vote or was it going to be something more akin to the sort of elections that happen in Turkey or Russia. Of course, it's impossible not to draw comparisons to the United States. And in many of these conversations I had again with European officials, other Western officials, I think the thing that they cannot understand, and yes, of course, they're concerned about the consolidation of some of these media companies and the extension of the control by allies of the president. But the thing that they cannot understand is how the Congress cannot stand up and do something about this and how Republicans in Congress are so supine and unwilling to speak what everyone knows is actually on their minds. That is what when people talk about the comparisons and the health and strength of US Democracy, people in Europe especially just cannot fathom. So that's what has been on my mind when thinking through, when thinking, thinking through these parallels.
- [27:28]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I think what's so amazing is that around the world and even in sort of authoritarian leaning places, they cannot figure out why Republicans in Congress won't do their job either constitutionally or politically. It's amazing that it is now sort of an international story spectacle. Alex Wagner, Isaac Stanley Becker, thank you so, so much for this conversation. Claire sticks around or she'll be back with in a little bit. When we come back, there's some big breaking news to tell you about from Capitol Hill. Eric Swalwell has just announced that he will resign from Congress. He has already withdrawn from the California governor's race as he faces allegations of sexual assault and misconduct. Our Capitol Hill reporters will join us on that story after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.
- [28:16]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House. And I reported on it.
- [28:25]
Michael Snell
And now we're friends and colleagues and
- [28:27]
Alex Wagner
on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.
- [28:33]
Simone Sanders Townsend
Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.
- [28:39]
Podcast Promoter
Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.
- [28:49]
Nicole Wallace
Moments ago, California Congressman Eric Swalwell announced he will resign from Congress in the wake of serious allegations of sexual assault and misconduct, allegations first published in the San Francisco Chronicle and by CNN that have now ended Swalwell's candidacy for California's open governor's seat. The San Francisco Chronicle spoke with a former member of Swalwell's congressional staff who detailed multiple encounters that she had with Swalwell that included unwanted sex. Her allegations include two detailed graphic accounts of encounters which resulted in the woman waking up without clothes on in Swalwell's hotel room. The San Francisco Chronicle corroborated her account of events with texts and Snapchat messages. The staff were exchanged with friends and Swalwell in the immediate aftermath of those encounters, along with medical records which Ms. Now has reviewed. Those records detail pregnancy and STD testing that was administered a week after an encounter with Swalwell. In a statement ending his gubernatorial campaign, Eric Swalwell said this quote to my family, staff, friends and supporters, I am deeply sorry for mistakes in judgment I've made in my past. I will fight the serious false allegations that have been made. But that's my fight, not a campaign's. This afternoon, the House Ethics Committee announced it will be opening an investigation into Congressman Swalwell. And again, moments ago, in a social media post, Eric Swalwell announced that he will be resigning from Congress. I want to bring in co founder of Punchbowl News and political contributor Jake Sherman and our congressional reporter Michael Snell. Michael, tell me how this came about, this resignation. This has snowballed since CNN's story and San Francisco Chronicles reporting broke Friday afternoon.
- [30:30]
Michael Snell
Yeah, Katie, it snowballed very quickly, right? It was just hours after that San Francisco Chronicle and CNN article had published Friday afternoon that Eric Swallow posted a video on social media calling these allegations flat, false and vowing to fight against against them. And then as you just mentioned on Sunday night, last night, late last night, he put out another statement saying he was suspending his campaign for governor. And now, less than 24 hours later, Eric Swalwell saying he is resigning from Congress. I'll note he still is saying, quote, I will fight the serious false allegations made against me. He adds, though, however, I must take responsibility and ownership for the mistakes I did make. He also says that it's not right for his constituents to have to watch him him fight these allegations. So he's going to do it outside of Congress. This was really the buildup. As it was becoming more and more likely that Eric Swalwell was going to be expelled from Congress, we saw a growing number of Democrats and Republicans up here on Capitol Hill calling on him to resign and saying if he didn't resign, they would vote for his expulsion. Just minutes before Eric Swalwell said he was resigning from Congress, there was a statement from Senator Ruben Gallego. He was was the chair of Eric Swalwell's 2020 presidential campaign, a very, very close friend of Eric Swalwell. He said that he should be expelled from Congress and added, I trusted someone who I believed was a friend. But it is now clear that he is not the person I thought I knew. Eric Swallow lost a lot of allies up here on Capitol Hill. A lot of folks who were saying they were going to vote to expel him. He seems to have just jumped to the chase, announcing his resignation on his own.
- [32:03]
Nicole Wallace
Jake Sherman from the alleged victim speaking to the San Francisco Chronicle, quote, I have no skin in the game if who becomes governor of California. But I feel people have a right to know whether the person who leads a state that is a safe haven for so many women actually treats women with dignity and will protect their rights. She said, quote, no one protected me from him. And so I have to protect the other young women like me who aspire to work in this field. And he could prey upon on San Francisco Chronicle and CNN blowing the story open late Friday. And as we said, it snowballed from there.
- [32:35]
Jake Sherman
It's amazing that within from Friday and today is Monday. Nicole Friday to Monday. And there was already, as Michael said, a groundswell of support to expel Swalwell from Congress. Remember, that's a big margin that you need to expel him from Congress, 2/3 majority, roughly 290 voters votes it would take to expel Swalwell from Congress. And just internally, what Swalwell is doing has two kind of immediate implications both for himself and for the rest of the institution. Number one, he is sparing members of Congress from having to vote to expel him because that's a privileged resolution, meaning it can't be stopped. Once someone introduces it, it's going to get a vote one way or another, either an up and down vote or, or a vote on to table it or refer to committee or otherwise set it aside. That's number one. Number two, this House ethics investigation which was announced today just, I mean just hours ago is over if he's no longer a member of Congress. Once he is no longer a member of Congress and formally submits that resignation, the House Ethics Committee no longer has jurisdiction, jurisdiction over Swalwell. So that ends that. Now there's the, there's been reports that the Manhattan District Attorney is looking into his behavior and some of the allegations. There's reports that DHS and is looking into whether he had hired a, an undocumented immigrant as a household employee. Those could still go on. Those are investigations outside of Congress. But once he resigns, this institution has no more say and no more purview over him and most alarmingly does not have the ability to look into allegations, number one, that he had relationships with people in his employ, people who were, were employed by him. And number two, the assault allegations which are serious and which the Ethics Committee would have presumably been able to look into. So those are the two immediate kind of institutional impacts of his resignation.
- [34:54]
Nicole Wallace
But as you said, I mean the New York, the Manhattan District Attorney's office is investigating the alleged sexual assault. CNN had again some extraordinary early reporting on the alleged abuse. And it's, it's truly heinous.
- [35:12]
Jake Sherman
Jake SHERMAN it is, it's absolutely heinous. And these are, I mean in the ended his career within three or four days and that, and that's how heinous it was. And I think from a political point of view up here, which probably precipitated his resignation because remember, he is still denying all of these allegations. So in his mind, mind he's, he's saying that, you know, they have no merit. But I think that the, the nature of these allegations were just too much for this institution and, and, and thus him to handle.
- [35:48]
Nicole Wallace
What is the apology for bad judgment for then?
- [35:52]
Jake Sherman
I don't know the answer to that. I'm not, I'm not entirely sure what he's apologizing for. It's not entirely clear to me. He's clearly apologizing for something. I don't know what that is.
- [36:02]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. All right, Mass, both of you to stick around. I want to bring Claire McCaskill into our conversation on the other side of a very short break. Don't go anywhere. Again, the breaking news we're covering. Congressman Eric Swal of California has announced he is resigning from Congress after horrific allegations of sexual misconduct and abuse were reported first by the San Francisco Chronicle in CNN. Claire McCaskill joins us. Claire, Michael and Jake have expertly taken us through what happens now. But let me try to apply some of what I hope some of us have learned or gained from months now of covering the Epstein story. Let me try to recenter this on the victims. Here's one of them speaking to cnn.
- [36:55]
K
After that bar closed, we went to another. I went to the bathroom and I don't remember anything after that. You don't remember anything? I remember the next day. I can see flashes of that evening of him on top of me, me pushing him off, him grabbing me. It was a lot more aggressive. It was aggressive.
- [37:22]
Claire McCaskill
Did you say no?
- [37:24]
K
Yes, I said no. I said I in my flash that I can recall, I was pushing him off of me saying no.
- [37:33]
Claire McCaskill
And what did he do?
- [37:35]
K
He didn't stop. He didn't stop. And you woke up the next morning? I woke up the next morning naked alone in his hotel room
- [37:47]
Nicole Wallace
in the year 2028. Again, these are allegations that swallowed in eyes. But this is the story. This is an account of how Wilbur was treated by a sitting Democratic congressman. Your thoughts, Claire?
- [38:02]
Claire McCaskill
Well, the prosecutor in me comes out here. I handled dozens and dozens, in fact hundreds of sexual assault cases and did many, many jury trials. These are tough cases to make in many instances, especially when the defense is that she consented. So my first thought is how brave of these women to come forward. And I think the Epstein case in the victims who came forward there helped women all over this country realize that there is an important purpose behind coming forward. The facts will be ferreted out by law enforcement and he may or may not be held criminally responsible for what he's done. But I do think it's very important that women know that there are professionals that will listen to what happened to them and make reports and give them to the appropriate people in our law enforcement system. And the best thing that can happen to anyone who goes through this is seeing justice occur. The victims in the Epstein case have not seen that. It remains to be seen whether these women who have come forward in this case have a sense of justice at the end of the process, but coming forward to the appropriate people and talking to them. Sometimes when you give a statement on the media, it's going to get picked apart later. And so I'm just like, I'm wanting to be protective of the facts of the case in order for them to be put together in a way that hold people accountable under the law. And I don't care who you are, whether you're Jeffrey Epstein or whether you're paying off a porn star or whether you're doing nonsense like Pete Hexit did when he was in a position of responsibility, ultimately getting those facts to the right people who will protect those facts and put them together and also help prepare you for what's to come. Because there's going to be aggressive scrutiny on these women, and I'm very proud of them for coming forward.
- [39:55]
Nicole Wallace
Michael, this is where this statement is so interesting, sort of either wittingly or unwittingly, with what clarity just detailed in mind. This is a statement from Eric Swalwell's congressional and campaign staff. They write this quote, we stand with our former colleague and the other women who have come forward. We believe you should stand with them, too. The behavior detailed in these reports is abhorrent, beneath the dignity of those serving in public office, and betrays the trust of all Californians. We, more than he, understand that we have obligations to the people we lead and to the constituents of California's 14th congressional district. Those of us that remain on staff do so for the sole purpose of ensuring that as many of those obligations are fulfilled as possible. What's behind that rather extraordinary statement?
- [40:47]
Michael Snell
Yeah, well, Nicole, what a lot of people sometimes don't see is that staffers who work up here on Capitol Hill, they don't just work for the member of Congress, they also work to serve the district. So the sentiment that those staffers were trying to. To get past was that the fact that they don't support Eric Swalwell's alleged conduct, they stand by the women who came forward with these allegations, but they feel like they have a duty and a responsibility to serve the people of Eric Swalwell's district, which is why they were remaining in their position. But Another thing I wanted to get into, and I think it's so key to these stories, when we talk about misconduct up on Capitol Hill, particularly this case, is that Capitol Hill is a community of these young staffers. I spoke to the woman who was at the center of these allegations. I spoke to her late Friday night, and I asked her the question that a lot of folks are wondering themselves, why now? As Claire mentioned, it is so difficult for folks to come forward with allegations like this that are sensitive, that are against people of powerful positions and jobs. I had asked her, why did she come forward now? And this is what she told me, Nicole. She said, quote, I really felt a responsibility to, to protect younger staffers because no one protected me. And I really didn't want to go on knowing this information. Wonderful if another person could be hurt by him. So I think a core part of this story is the fact that Capitol Hill is a very close community, especially when you talk about young staffers. It's why we saw that statement and it came through in the sentiment when I had that conversation with the woman who accused Eric Swalwell.
- [42:15]
Nicole Wallace
That's incredible. And an incredible point to remember that even up there, it's sort of a community within the larger D.C. community. Michael, thank you so much. Claire, thank you so much for staying for the hour. Jake Sherman had to go do more reporting, but we thank him as well. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. We're so happy to tell you about this week's episode of the Best People podcast. We were fortunate enough to have Kara Swisher back with us. Her latest project is focused on the booming industry of longevity and people determined to defy death. Death. Listen to what she told me about the health of our current president.
- [42:58]
Kara Swisher
By the way, you watch Friction in Health. Friction is good for brain cognition. And there's issues around that with Trump very clearly.
- [43:05]
Nicole Wallace
But what do you think they are?
- [43:07]
Kara Swisher
I think he's old and I don't think he eats well and he doesn't sleep. I mean, it's just the kind of
- [43:11]
Nicole Wallace
stuff like he does nothing that you don't recommend.
- [43:14]
Kara Swisher
Now, look, you could live a long time as a rage filled person, by the way, there's plenty of old people in senior facilities that look very vibrant and yelling about the pudding. And that's what he does. He yells about the pudding all day long. But one of the things that's problematic is you have, you know, oddly enough, it's an unhealthy environment with people where they live in fear, they are fearful of death, they're fearful of losing power. And these are all things that, you know, eat at the heart of people and therefore they make bad decisions. I mean, it's pretty, pretty clear what's happening. And he's put people around him who are willing to do this rather than willing to push back.
- [43:50]
Nicole Wallace
She is so astute and fearless. You don't want to miss the rest of our conversation. Just scan the QR code on your scre to hear the rest or download the best people. Wherever you get your podcasts, let us know what you think on BlueSky or Instagram. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
- [44:11]
Podcast Promoter
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Michael Snell
Every small d Democratic muscle that we have have is flexing.
- [44:24]
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