"The essential fight ahead"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – "The Essential Fight Ahead"

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: February 5, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Deadline: White House centers on what Nicolle Wallace calls “the essential fight ahead”—the intensifying battle over democracy, election integrity, and constitutional norms in the U.S., particularly as they intersect with unprecedented actions taken by the Trump administration and its allies. With direct reports from Georgia amid high-stakes legal fights and raids, and voices from experts and impacted communities, Wallace unpacks the threats to U.S. elections, civic life, and democratic traditions.

Guests include:

• Mark Elias (voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy Docket),
• Anne Applebaum (Atlantic staff writer and expert on authoritarianism),
• Jeff Duncan (former Georgia Lieutenant Governor and now Democratic gubernatorial candidate),
• Erin Flavin (Minneapolis business owner),
• Rep. Jim Himes (Ranking Member, House Intelligence Committee).

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Key Topics & Insights

The Georgia Election Records Raid and its National Implications

• [01:22–04:15] Nicolle Wallace sets up the show with news that Fulton County, Georgia, officials have launched legal action against what they characterize as an illegal, Trump-administration-sponsored federal seizure of sensitive 2020 election records. Local leaders assert their intention to fight for control of the records.

  “The Constitution is not a suggestion. That was Fulton County Chairman Rob Pitts earlier today, framing the essential fight ahead not just for the people there in Georgia, but for all of us. All Americans. Full stop.” (Wallace, 01:22)

• [02:13] Jeff Duncan, former Georgia GOP Lt. Governor now running as a Democrat, underscores bipartisan responsibility:

  "Our responsibility is clear: to ensure every vote counts, regardless of who the voter supports... We will not allow a small group of individuals promoting unfounded claims to speak for the more than 700,000 voters that… depend on us to administer fair, accurate, and secure elections."

• [04:15] Wallace notes a Supreme Court ruling upholding California's new redistricting maps, marking a win for voting rights advocates against what she frames as Trump’s efforts to skew elections.

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The Persistence of Election Denial and Damage to Democracy

• [06:33–07:26] Jeff Duncan describes his journey from Republican to Democrat, motivated by witnessing the cumulative damage of Trump’s election denialism and a party culture he calls "toxic":

  “It was all about being in the cool kids club... Donald Trump does not care about democracy. Donald Trump and the administration doesn't care about the Constitution... They care about one thing and one thing only, and it's the guy looking back at him in the mirror.” (Duncan, 06:33)

• [07:34] Duncan addresses the reality and mythmaking after the 2020 election:

  “Donald Trump lost the election because he was a terrible president... Then he decided to use the blame game and started sowing seeds of doubt. It's... not rooted in facts. It's rooted in innuendos and, and half truths and twisted truths.” (Duncan, 07:34)

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The Playbook for Undermining Elections

• [09:39–12:06] Mark Elias details Trump’s new “Plan B” for undermining democracy, which includes political prosecutions, seizing ballots, and enlisting cooperative prosecutors. He corrects the dangerous narrative that states are mere “agents” of the federal government in elections:

  “The biggest lie that Donald Trump is telling right now... is this idea that states operate as his agents. The Constitution does not allow the President to have any role in federal elections... States run elections, period. They don't act as... the agent of the President. The President has no role, and we cannot allow him to sort of slide this by people... If they don’t do the job he likes, he can go in. He can't.” (Elias, 11:10)

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Raids as Political Theater and Preemptive Disinformation

• [12:54–13:31] Bodycam footage is discussed, showing federal agents seizing election records in Georgia, with Tulsi Gabbard present. Anne Applebaum highlights two purposes: pushing legal boundaries and creating a narrative for future election disputes.

  “This is also about creating a narrative... so if they lose the election, which is possible... they are preparing already the ground to say that the election was stolen, that it was cheated.” (Applebaum, 13:31)

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The Silence of GOP and Corporate America

• [15:11–19:42] Wallace and Elias examine why traditional defenders of democracy—Republican officials, corporate leaders, major law firms—remain silent, and how this emboldens anti-democratic actors.

  “It is not just them [Republicans]. There is a deafening silence among the most powerful people in this country who could most afford to do and say the right thing.” (Elias, 18:35)

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The Nationalization of Elections and The “Overton Window” Shift

• [23:06–24:24] Rep. Jim Himes and Anne Applebaum debate whether it’s appropriate to nationalize elections, with Applebaum cautioning how democratic backsliding is normalized:

  “No, it’s not normal for the president to talk about nationalizing midterms. These are state elections... By using that language, he’s seeking... not only to shape the ground before the election, but to prepare people for a radical result afterwards.” (Applebaum, 24:24)

• Applebaum warns of how radical rhetoric shifts public expectations:

  “Every time he [Trump] radicalizes his language, he's adjusting people's expectations. He's getting them used to something much worse.” (Applebaum, 25:35)

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The Threatened Foundations of the Constitution

• [26:40–29:22] Applebaum reflects on the fragility of constitutional order and the real risk of violence:

  “When the common symbols and common language of democracy are undermined, then inexorably, the result can be violence... the point of a constitution is that it allows us to resolve our differences... Once you undermine that... it becomes very hard to have those conversations without resorting to something worse.” (Applebaum, 27:00)

• Elias attributes GOP leadership’s persistence in denial to power lust and the fear of electoral defeat:

  “Mike Johnson is... an out and out election denier and has been part of the big lie from the beginning... he just wants to hold power and he knows that if there are free and fair elections... they are on a trajectory to lose the House.” (Elias, 28:35)

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Tulsi Gabbard, Intelligence, and the FBI Raid (Congressman Jim Himes)

• [31:11–38:30]
  • Rep. Jim Himes, top House Democratic member on Intelligence, describes demanding a briefing after DNI Tulsi Gabbard’s presence at the Georgia raid. He says her role in domestic election security should not entail physical presence at law enforcement operations.
  • Himes confirms the existence of a highly classified whistleblower complaint against Gabbard—strictly separate from the Georgia incident—but criticizes the DNI’s slow-walking of the process:

    “It should not take an article in the Wall Street Journal to get the Director of National Intelligence to actually abide by the law... It took eight months for the DNI ultimately to convey that complaint... that does not look good for the DNI.” (Himes, 34:03)

  • Himes warns that blurring lines between foreign intelligence operations and domestic law enforcement undermines legal and civil liberty protections:

    “We draw a very, very bright line between what they do abroad... and whether they can operate inside the United States. And the answer is no, they cannot.” (Himes, 36:31)

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Human and Economic Toll of Aggressive ICE Raids in Minneapolis

• [41:21–44:47] Nicolle Wallace interviews Erin Flavin, a local business owner, about the economic, social, and mental health fallout from a federal ICE crackdown. She describes widespread fear, business closures, and large corporations’ failure to speak out or act:

  “...it says a lot for the way the country is run as a whole... It doesn't make any sense... if they're employing our community, they should be standing up for our community.” (Flavin, 42:59)

  • Flavin adds:

  “It’s really dystopian. I don’t know how else to say it, that some of the world isn’t—or our country isn’t—on the same page. It just feels very confusing to me.” (Flavin, 44:06)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

| Quote | Speaker | Timestamp | |-------|---------|-----------| | “The Constitution is not a suggestion.” | Rob Pitts via Wallace | 01:22 | | “Donald Trump does not care about democracy… They care about one thing and one thing only, and it's the guy looking back at him in the mirror.” | Jeff Duncan | 06:33 | | “The Constitution does not allow the President to have any role in federal elections… States run elections, period.” | Mark Elias | 11:10 | | “This is also about creating a narrative… so if they lose the election... they are preparing already the ground to say that the election was stolen.” | Anne Applebaum | 13:31 | | “There is a deafening silence among the most powerful people in this country who could most afford to do and say the right thing.” | Mark Elias | 18:35 | | "No, it's not normal for the president to talk about nationalizing midterms. These are state elections..." | Anne Applebaum | 24:24 | | "When the common symbols and common language of democracy are undermined, then inexorably, the result can be violence." | Anne Applebaum | 27:00 | | “It should not take an article in the Wall Street Journal to get the DNI to actually abide by the law…” | Jim Himes | 34:03 | | “It’s really dystopian. I don’t know how else to say it…” | Erin Flavin | 44:06 |

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Segment Timestamps

• [01:22–04:15] Georgia’s legal fight over seized election records; national stakes for democracy
• [06:33–09:18] Jeff Duncan on Republican complicity and the current political opportunity for Democrats
• [09:39–12:06] Mark Elias: Trump’s anti-democratic playbook and the dangers of normalizing federal intervention in elections
• [12:54–13:31] Applebaum on the true objective of the federal raid: narrative formation and future contestation
• [15:32–19:54] Silence from Republican and corporate elites
• [23:06–24:24] The debate over nationalizing elections and shifting political norms
• [26:40–27:00] Applebaum on civil strife as a consequence of constitutional breakdown
• [31:11–38:30] Rep. Jim Himes: DNI’s blurred role, whistleblower complaint, and the Georgia situation
• [41:21–45:01] Erin Flavin: community, economic, and emotional impacts of the ICE crackdown in Minneapolis

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Overall Tone

Urgent, clear-eyed, and deeply concerned for American democratic institutions. The hosts and guests directly challenge both overt and subtle authoritarian shifts and express frustration at widespread elite silence and normalization of radical actions.

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Closing

This episode underscores the convergence of unprecedented legal, political, and social crises for U.S. democracy, urging vigilance, nonpartisan resistance to unlawful power grabs, and solidarity in defense of constitutional norms.

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Transcript

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[Jim Himes]

Our Constitution itself is at stake in this fight. And I don't I want to repeat the Constitution is the law of the land. The Constitution is not a suggestion.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. One more time for the folks in the back. The Constitution is not a suggestion. That was Fulton County Chairman Rob Pitts earlier today, framing the essential fight ahead not just for the people there in Georgia, but for all of us. All Americans. Full stop. The context for those comments New legal action filed this morning under seal in federal court in Atlanta, Georgia by Fulton county officials. More specifically, it's a court challenge to the Trump administration's highly dubious seizure of election records, records related to the 2020 election. Pitz There insists that he and his team will use every resource to wrest control of the seized election material back from the federal government. It's a sentiment that persisted in the confines of today's Fulton county commissioners meeting. Watch.

[Jeff Duncan]

Our responsibility is clear to ensure every vote counts, regardless of who the voter supports. And despite criticism, scrutiny of our work or complex legislation, we will remain focused, serving our voters. And we will not allow a small group of individuals promoting unfounded claims to speak for the more than 700,000 voters that we that depend on us to administer fair, accurate and secure elections.

[Nicole Wallace]

Perhaps the only thing more disturbing than what's happening here Is the distinct possibility that for Donald Trump, he's just getting started. Remember Trump's baseless and evidence free claim of widespread fraud in 2020 that caused him to lo extended well beyond Georgia. It actually resulted in lots of criminal charges for lots of people, fake electors from coast to coast. That means the FBI and the Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard for some reason could soon be raiding an elections office near you. Yesterday, given the opportunity to clarify comments that he'd made on nationalizing our elections, comments his White House appeared to actively try to walk back. Almost immediately, Donald Trump made himself clear. Watch.

[Mark Elias]

Because you know, if you think about it, a state is an agent for the federal government in elections. I don't know why the federal government doesn't do them anyway, but when you see some of these states about how horribly they run their elections, what a disgrace it is. I think the federal government, when you see crooked elections and we had plenty of them and by the way, we had them last time. But go to 2020 and look at the facts that are coming out.

[Jim Himes]

Rigged crooked elections.

[Mark Elias]

If we have areas, take a look at Detroit, take a look at Pennsylvania, take a look at Philadelphia. You go take a look at Atlanta. Look at some of the places that horrible corruption on elections and the federal government should not allow that the federal government should get involved. These are agents of the federal government to count the votes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Every one of those conspiracies he just named there was brought to Bill Barr, who was his attorney general at the time that he made those claims and Bill Barr describ as quote, bullshit. But Donald Trump does everything in and out of his power to put his finger on the scales of future elections. Major setback happened today for him. Remember those redrawn maps that went to the voters in California? That state's response, that state's effort to fight fire with fire after Texas. Well, this afternoon, the United States Supreme Court, this United States Supreme Court gave California the go ahead on those new maps in a move that ensures a more level playing field. That's where we start the hour with voting rights attorney, founder of democracy docket, Mark Elias. Also joining us, Atlantic staff writer Anne Applebaum. A new season of her podcast autocracy in America is out right now. It is must listen. And former Georgia Lieutenant Governor Jeff Duncan's here. He was a Republican. He broke with Donald Trump in 2020 over Donald Trump's well over a lot of things, but largely over Donald Trump's questioning of the integrity of his state's vote count. He's now running for governor in Georgia as a Democrat. Let me ask you to start us off, Jeff, the things that you have had to say, we've covered you very closely on this program. I, as an ex Republican, take a lot of interest in Republicans who've reached a point that you did, where the truth is the truth, and if you have to change parties to tell the truth out loud, so be it. But Mitch McConnell, Lindsey Graham, and newly unsealed documents. Kevin McCarthy, every Republican whose comments have become public come out on the same side of saying that he would have supported aliens, saying the election had been stolen. Kevin McCarthy got on a phone call with Liz Cheney and others and said, the 25th Amendment isn't fast enough. Impeachment isn't fast enough. We need him to resign. I'll talk to him about it tonight. That's on phone recordings that were unearthed by reporters. There's never been an example of a conversation a Republican has had that they thought would remain private, becoming public, where they say anything other than Trump is full of it when he says that there was election fraud in 2020. So how do you explain or how do you repair all the damage that Trump has done?

[Jeff Duncan]

Well, I think you just gotta lead by example. I mean, that's been my journey to becoming a Democrat. It started well before Donald Trump tried to steal an election here in Georgia. It started with the broken fundamental policies that Republicans just kept kowtowing to Donald Trump with. Right. It was all about being in the cool kids club. And it's tragic to watch. And the average conversation with a Republican these days is they put their arm around me and they look both ways and make sure the camera's not watching. And they'll say, hey, man, I'm proud of you for doing the right thing. And look, I'm playing the long game. I think there's an opportunity for once in a lifetime opportunity for Democrats to grow the size of a tent in this period of time because Donald Trump is that bad. And get Democrats, independents and disgusted Republicans to show up and band together and to do something different and certainly take this country in a better direction. Because Donald Trump does not care about democracy. Donald Trump and the administration doesn't care about the Constitution or enforcing it. They care about one thing and one thing only, and it's the guy looking back at him in the mirror.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jeff, can you just remind us of the facts of the 2020 election and share any theories you have about what Donald Trump stole and why?

[Jeff Duncan]

Yeah, the facts are Donald Trump lost the election because he was a terrible president. In the first term, he absolutely put on display what the toxicity that he was about. And nearly 40,000 Georgians decided not to vote for him and vote for other Republicans on the ticket. So he lost. And then he decided to use the blame game and started sowing seeds of doubt. It's a lot. It's the same game plan that he's using now. It's not rooted in facts. It's rooted in innuendos and, and half truths and twisted truths. And they'll go find some influencers on social media and stir the pot and just create doubt. That's the same game plan he's using. But, you know, they don't stop with just social media. They tried to put pressure on us to open up a special session to give them more air to breathe. These lies in. They tried to get Governor Kemp and Raffensperger to find vote. It just they don't stop at anything, especially the law.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jeff, today, during that press conference that I played a little bit of, that was Fulton County Chairman Rob Pitts. He suggested that he'd heard just a rumor that he and other major Georgia figures, including Gabe Sterling, I think, who was the first person who warned of the potential for violence to ensue weeks ahead of January 6, that they could be arrested. He said he'd heard that rumor before and after the raid of the county offices. Have you heard anything about their interest in you?

[Jeff Duncan]

I've not heard anything about that. And, you know, look, I'm staying laser focused. I'm campaigning to be Georgia's next governor because I care that much about this state. To not hand it over to a sock puppet for Donald Trump, that's important to me. I think it's important to my kids. It's important to this, to this state. We're headed in a great direction. But if we hand the keys to Donald Trump to be our default governor, this thing is going to get rough real fast.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mark Elias, let me bring you in on this. This is a playbook you and I have been talking about and covering really for years now, since before Donald Trump was elected a second time. But Chairman Rob Pitts again at this press conference, suggesting that he and other major Georgia figures would be arrested.

[Mark Elias]

Yeah, look, I've been sounding the alarm about the risks that Donald Trump faced to democracy since I was the general counsel to Hillary Clinton's campaign. You and I did a lot of television sounding the Alarm before the 2020 election and what we saw afterwards. And I am here to sound a larger and louder alarm today than I ever have Before. I mean, the fact is that Donald Trump has proven himself desperate. As you point out, the redistricting has not worked out the way he wished. I'm proud that my law firm represented the Democratic Party in defeating the Republican effort that we just won in the Supreme Court. But the fact is that when that didn't work out, he then went to plan B. And plan B is what we are seeing. It is political prosecutions. It is the threats of more political prosecutions. It is the dry running of how one seizes ballots. Yes, he's interested in 2020, but he's really interested in setting up the mechanism to be able to seize ballots in 2026. He has found a prosecutor in Missouri, not in Georgia, in Missouri, seizing ballots in Georgia. That prosecutor in Missouri apparently has nationwide jurisdiction. So he has found a willing prosecutor to, to, to do these things. Meanwhile, you have Steve Bannon on tv, who, as you know, is, you know, never too many degrees away from Donald Trump's psyche this morning, saying that that ICE should, should be around polling locations. And when we have, what we have seen ICE do is, is tragic towards US Citizens, including killing US Citizens. So, so, you know, like, this is all lining up. But, but, Nicole, if I can just add one final thing. The biggest lie that Donald Trump is telling right now that we really can't let go slide and that we cannot let normalize is this idea that states operate as his agents. The Constitution does not allow the President to have any role in federal elections. I just want a case in D.C. district Court in which the judge rejected the, the executive order that Donald Trump issued saying that the President has no role in elections, but yet he is trying to turn the Constitution on its head. States run elections, period. They don't act as the agent of the federal government. They don't act as the agent of the President. The President has no role, and we cannot allow him to sort of slide this by people as if somehow the states are doing his bidding. And therefore, if they don't do the job he likes, he can go in. He can't.

[Nicole Wallace]

But go into an election office. He did. And Applebaum, I just want to show you this body cam footage in the same way that the footage that exists of the killing of Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy, I think, has woken up Americans to what is being done in our names as Americans. I wonder if you think this footage, if people really see it, could be understood in the same way with what Mark is talking about, that the Constitution holds, requires, doesn't leave it up to Interpretation that the states are in charge of elections. Here's the body cam footage acquired by the Atlanta Journal Constitution of that Fulton county raid attended by Tulsi Gabbard, in which the FBI agents get on the phone with Donald Trump after.

[Jeff Duncan]

This is all in regards to election side stuff.

[Mark Elias]

You know where we're here, right?

[Jeff Duncan]

So I can't discuss war.

[Jim Himes]

I gotcha.

[Jeff Duncan]

What's happening now is that their warrant is wrong. We, the attorneys asked him for it. They finally gave him a copy. Then the attorney's like, it's wrong. So they're allegedly waiting for the judge to update it. The warrant will be amended slightly, but for all intents and purposes that they had is what it's going to look like. We wanted to let her facilitate us, move into the building to unlock the gates so that we don't have to breach it. Because one way or the other, the records are coming with us today.

[Nicole Wallace]

And one way or another, the records are coming with us today. What does that mean?

[Anne Applebaum]

I think there are two purposes to this raid. One of them is something we've seen Donald Trump do since he was reelected in 2024, which is to push the law as far as possible, really, until it's broken. In other words, to use, as Mark just said, whatever tactics, whatever techniques, whatever corrupt people there are within the system to break as many laws as possible and let the courts try to catch up with him afterwards. You know, don't worry about the law. Just keep going. We've seen that with ice. We've seen that with the destruction of the civil service. We've seen that with the destruction of all kinds of government programs that Congress, Congress approved of and the president illegally destroyed. And this is one more instance of that. But I think there's something else happening, too. And maybe the, maybe the body cam footage will help people understand this. This is also about creating a narrative or creating a story. So if they lose the election, which is possible, we've just seen an extraordinary local election in Texas where there was a landslide for a Democrat in a place where Donald Trump won not so long ago. If there is a landslide, they are preparing already the ground to say that the election was stolen, that it was cheated. In other words, there's not just a plan to shape the ground before the election. I think they're also planning to shape the ground afterwards. And the more exposure that media can do and that local election workers can do to expose this story as a lie now, this will help people understand what happens later on.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, exposing this as a lie is exactly, Jeff, what the January 6th select committee did. And it's what statewide officials in Georgia tried to do. I mean, it's what you did. It's what Brad Raffensperger seemed to try to do. It's what Governor Kemp did. Why are they not front and center in saying that this is a lie?

[Jeff Duncan]

Well, it's unfortunate that this isn't a bipartisan choir of people screaming against what is absolutely insanity. You know, it is troubling to watch a sitting president speak about nationalizing elections from the Oval Office. And for folks on both sides of the aisle, Republicans and Democrats not take those threats seriously. I mean, that is usurping democracy at its finest. And, you know, Georgia, look, we're the political center of the universe. We know it. I certainly feel the weight of it in my campaign. Over 11,000 people from all 50 states have contributed to duncanforgeorgia.com, because they care about us. Proving these elections can be held accurately, can be held safely. Can't avoid the MAGA overreach and putting Donald Trump putting his thumbs on the scale. I think, look, we've got a battle in front of us here, but we've got to work hard. We've got to make sure that we do all we can do. We need to use the courts, we need to use public opinion, we need to use the bully pull, but we need to use every means possible to push back on lies, because that's all this is, is lies, lies, lies. You know, you think about, you know, somebody who's. Who's a petty thief and they're really smart and they trick a bunch of people, and you're. At the end of the day, you're like, why don't you just use those skills and that wisdom to go have a job or make money? It's the same thing here. Look, if Republicans just focus on the three things that everybody cares about, the affordability crisis, the health care crisis, and the Donald Trump crisis, Republicans would probably be in a better position. But instead, they're following Donald Trump off the cliff.

[Nicole Wallace]

Marcos, the idea that no one is ever revealed in a private conversation to have said anything other than what Jeff Duncan just said. I mean, there's never a tape that comes out where someone said, you know, I had a weird feeling about the election. Privately, they all say that they know there was no fraud in 2020. Privately, they all say things like, Mitch McConnell did, that Donald Trump is, quote, the worst human being I've ever known, or General John Kelly the most damaged person I've ever known. Or Kevin McCarthy, who, as I said before, after his conduct in the 2020 election, said he needed to be impeached or removed through the 25th Amendment. Why do you think at this point, nine years in as a lame duck with a 37% approval rating, people are still willing to tear up the Constitution?

[Mark Elias]

You know, I think that's going to be the great question of our time that historians are going to, are going to, are going to debate. And I wish I knew the answer because I would love to contribute to undoing it. But the fact is we have a lot of cowardice among Republicans. We have complete cowardice of Republicans in Congress. Brad Ratzenberger just published an op ed in the Wall Street Journal calling for stricter voter ID or whatever. Right. You know, he's not, he's not, as you point out, he's not stepping forward and defending anything. Brian Kemp is term limited. He could, he could say something. But, you know, where, where's he? And you know, as you look across the landscape, it's not just Republicans. I mean, you know, where are the corporate leaders of Atlanta? You know, remember, remember them, Lieutenant Governor Duncan, these were the folks who were saying, move the All Star game over a voter suppression bill in 2021. Where, where are they? Where are the corporate leaders in Minneapolis? Where's Target? Where's Best buy? Where's 3M? Where are all these corporate leaders who were going to be voices for civics? They're all quiet. The law firms can't find a big law firm lawyer anywhere. Last big law firm partner I saw of any prominence was in the Epstein files. But they're nowhere to be found here. They're not standing by Jeff Duncan. They're not standing by us in the 80 cases we're litigating. So there's a lot of silence going on. And it's easy to focus on the Republican silence. And believe me, I don't give them an inch. I don't give them any comfort in their silence. But honestly, it is not just them. There is a deafening silence among the most powerful people in this country who could most afford to do and say the right thing while average everyday Americans are in the streets in Minneapolis peacefully protesting and being abused. And you have those election officials that you showed. My heart broke. You know, people who are just trying to administer a free election in Fulton county, they are worrying now about what, what comes to them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just be really specific. As you're talking about the Epstein files, you're talking about Brad Karp, who's mentioned in the Epstein files making the determination that it's a safer thing to be found in the Epstein files than oppose Donald Trump.

[Mark Elias]

That's right. I mean, it's been reported that Brad Karp, who is the chairman and CEO of Paul Weiss, was in the Epstein files. People can go read those reports for themselves. And of course, Brad Karp was the capitulator in chief. He led one of the oldest and most storied pro democracy law firms in the country, Paul Weiss, towards the path of collaboration and capitulation. And so that is exactly who I was referring to.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yes, it is an email exchange that you can certainly go read for yourself. Searchable versions of the Epstein files available in most major newspaper websites. Jeff Duncan, thank you for spending some time with us on these developments. As you said, Georgia is the center of this fight of our democracy. We'll be calling on you again, I'm sure. Thank you for spending time with us today. Ann and Mark, stick around with us. We will be joined later in the hour by the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee and what he's concerned about most as we head into the midterm season. And what we're learning about that mysterious whistleblower report about Tulsi Gabbard that has been stalled out for eight months. Later in the hour, the economic impact of Donald Trump's assault on Minneapolis. What one small business owner says life is like as federal agents round up their neighbors, immigrants and citizens alike. And just as Mark was saying, why some of the bigger corporations who benefit from being based in Minnesota, Minneapolis have made the decision so far to remain silent. Deadland White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Jim Himes]

Yeah, that's not what the Constitution says about Elections There is some dispute and has gone to the Supreme Court about whether federal elections are different than state elections. And the Supreme Court did rule that, for example, Washington state can't set term limits on federal officials. If Georgia doesn't, it has to be uniform election law. But as far as the time places, as far as the time, place and.

[Mark Elias]

Manner of the elections, that under the.

[Jim Himes]

Constitution is a state activity. So I'm not for nationalizing, and I was against Nancy Pelosi's bill, which would have nationalized it, but I would also be against any bill coming from this administration that would nationalize elections.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ann, you do a better job than just about anyone at reminding us that the autocrat's best tool is the normalization of that which has been audacious at every other prior point in a country's story or history. And this debate that's happening on shows like that one and like this one about, well, why aren't elections national? I feel like is a perfect example of the moving of the Overton window for a country that has gone this far down this path. Do they ever get back?

[Anne Applebaum]

Countries can get back. They can turn back. They can turn away from a drift towards authoritarianism. We had an example of that a couple of years ago in Poland when we had an autocratic populist government that was moving, moving in some directions that would be familiar to Americans. And it was reversed by a very broad coalition going from the center left to the center right that blocked it because most people didn't want to change their constitution. They didn't want to have politicized courts. That was the main issue there. So it's not impossible. But as you say, it's important that people understand the radical nature of the language that the president is using. So no, it's not normal for the president to talk about nationalizing midterms. These are state elections. State elections in the United States are run by state officials, by state governments, according to state rules and in accordance with how the state has always run them, and breaking that and implying that state. And remember how Trump is doing it? He's saying some states are corrupt or some states, some cities are corrupt, or there are, you know, there's lots of evidence of fraud. By using that language, he's seeking, as I said, not only to shape the ground before the election, but to prepare people for a radical result afterwards. Every time he radicalizes his language, he's adjusting people's expectations. He's getting them used to something much worse. I mean, he really started with this during the election campaign in 2024, when he started using very extreme language about his opponents, about immigrants, about enemies, a language that nobody had used in American presidential politics in modern times. And by doing that, by using this radical way of speaking, he makes people ready to accept radical change. And the fact that so many people are going along with it, whether it's Mike Johnson or whether it's his supporters online, is proof that if it's not stopped, it can succeed. And this is why it's so important that Republicans and Democrats and people in the media and anybody with a public voice state very calmly that this is not how our elections work.

[Nicole Wallace]

Anne, on the Constitution, I mean, he's. He threatens the First Amendment, he threatens the Second Amendment, according to the NRA, threatens the Fourth Amendment, the 10th Amendment, the 14th Amendment. I mean, has the country been at a point when so many of sort of the pillars of our Constitution have been under threat by a president ever before?

[Anne Applebaum]

Well, we did have a civil war, and that ended badly. I mean, well, it ended in the very end. It ended well. The evidence from when constitutions are broken, when the public agreement about how the country should run is destroyed, when the common symbols and common language of democracy are undermined, then inexorably, the result can be violence. Because once people don't agree about what their political system is, then they begin to fight about it. Look at any other place that's had a civil war, not just our country. Look at Northern Ireland, look at Sudan, look at anywhere where there's conflict. And the point of a constitution is that it allows us to resolve our differences according to a set of rules we all agree on. Once you undermine that, it becomes very hard to have those conversations without resorting to something worse. And I urge people to pay attention to this story, to pay attention to our electoral tradition, the language of our constitution, to encourage anybody that they know to listen to it, to understand it. Because the road Donald Trump is leading is not towards peace and security.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Mark, this is where I lose the plot. Why is Mike Johnson on this train? Why does Mike Johnson want the country to not be a democracy to not adhere to the Constitution. Why is he making things up that he knows to be false about election fraud?

[Mark Elias]

Because Mike Johnson is an election denier. Remember Mike Johnson as a backbencher. The first time most people heard of Mike Johnson was he organized the amicus brief of 125, I think it was members of the house in the U.S. supreme Court to try to throw out the election results in four states in December of 2020. Then he organized the opposition to certifying the election on the night of January six. So he's just an out and out election and has been part of the big lie from the beginning and he just wants to hold power and he knows that if there are free and fair elections that Republicans are going to lose control of the House. I mean we could debate the Senate but like right now they are on a trajectory to lose the House in kind of overwhelming margins. And this redistricting gambit that they had is not playing out the way they wanted. So Mike Johnson is just like in it for the power.

[Nicole Wallace]

An unbelievable state of affairs. Mark Eliason and Applebaum, we benefit so much from your clarity on it. Thank you. Thank you very much. When we come back, the big question Democrats on Capitol Hill are asking, what is Tulsi Gabbard up to? Congressman Jim Hines, the top Democrat in the House of Intel Committee as our guest. We'll ask him to try to answer that for us next.

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[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring into our coverage one of the lawmakers demanding a briefing from Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard on her presence during the FBI raid at the Fulton County, Georgia Election Center. House intelligence ranking member, Democratic Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. How's that going? Do you have a briefing schedule with Tulsi Gabbard?

[Jim Himes]

Well, Nicole, as you know, you know, the moment the photograph came out, Mark Warner, who is my counterpart on the Senate side, and I wrote a letter to the Director of National Intelligence saying, wait a minute, inside the US Law enforcement operation, there is nothing that the Director of National Intelligence should have to do with that. We got a very, very lengthy letter back from the DNI saying basically that part of my job is election security. And by the way, she's not wrong about that. But election security, just so that the public understands that the intelligence community does remember, intelligence community, CIA, nsa, you don't want them in your backyard. You don't want them in their town. They point outside the country. So, you know, the DNI is not entirely wrong. She should be, in fact, looking at sigint. That might indicate that the Russians are trying to support one candidate or the other the way they did in the 2016 election. There is a role, but that role has absolutely nothing in a million years to do with showing up with the FBI in Fulton County, Georgia, and then allowing herself to be photographed so that, you know, the American people can be reinforced in the notion that is at the bottom of this thing, which is that, oh, my God, Donald Trump is very, very interested in not losing another election. You know, you just had Mark Elias on. And so it's just a really ugly set of circumstances that Tulsi Gabbard brought about, I think, in an effort to sort of recover the president's confidence.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me share what is known, what has been reported, and just try to deepen our understanding about what your question, what the questions are that you would like to ask her. So this is the Wall Street Journal story that sort of blew up in the world of intelligence with just questions. Wall Street Journal reported this exclusively. Quote, a U.S. official has alleged wrongdoing by U.S. spy chief Tulsi Gabbard in a complaint that is so highly classified, it has sparked months of wrangling over how to share it with Congress. According to people familiar with the matter. Now, I read this story because we don't know if it has anything to do with the extraordinary nature of her presence at an FBI raid of an election office in Fulton County, Georgia. But the same news cycle in which that happened, Wall Street Journal breaks this story. I wonder if you have any information about what it is that's so sensitive that a US Official has alleged, quote, wrongdoing by Tulsi Gabbard, but it can't be shared with members of Congress who have oversight, which I assume would be you.

[Jim Himes]

Yeah, well, just to clarify the record here, two days ago, the day the Wall Street Journal story about the super secret complaint broke, I was in fact able to review that complaint and to ask some questions about it. And I cannot in any way, shape or form get into the details of that complaint because it is very classified. But I can tell you that these are two totally separate things. What Tulsi Gabbard was, God only knows what she was doing in Georgia. But that is not what this is about. And I can't get into the details. But I can tell you this. It should not take an article in the Wall Street Journal to get the Director of National Intelligence to actually abide by the law that says that when a whistleblower complaint is made, that whistleblower has the right to talk to Congress. Now, the reason the DNI is involved here is because, appropriately, the DNI needs to give a whistleblower guidance on how to do that, because the information is almost always highly secret and very, very sensitive. And it took eight months. It should have taken a month, by the way. It took eight months for the DNI ultimately to convey that complaint as the DNI is legally required to do to the Congress. So, look, I'm not going to give up on making sure I understand the substance of the complaint. But the fact that it took eight months to do what should have taken a month or two, that does not look good for the dni. And it is certainly not, you know, the appropriate respect that should be shown to the Congress of the United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I guess the fact that they are taking place in the same news cycle gets at your earlier point about why she might be at a Georgia election office. And it would seem to be that that's something Donald Trump cares about a lot. It's been reported by the New York Times that she orchestrated a phone call between the FBI agents who are seen in body cam footage at that election office. It's been reported by the Times that she got them on the phone with Donald Trump. Explain Your point earlier about an intelligence chief's role in sigint, which is signals intelligence. Right. The people that we listen to to protect United States national security. Donald Trump's firing of the person in charge of protecting our elections the last time he was president because that person was so good at it, if there wasn't interference, he fired that person because they wouldn't repeat the lie that there was fraud. Just explain this bigger portrait that's coming into focus of how Donald Trump is changing the sort of forces and the figures in the way that they protect our elections.

[Jim Himes]

Yeah, yeah. So two things to say about that. Number one, let's not lose sight of the fact that the activity of the fda, FBI in Fulton County, Georgia, is. Is an insane reprise of something that this country litigated in court more than 60 times, and every single court said, no, Mr. President, you lost the election of 2020, and, by the way, didn't just get litigated. 1600 insurgents violently attacked the building I am standing in right now because President Trump couldn't say what any other adult on the planet earth would say, which is, I'm, you know, I'm not happy about this, but I lost this election because he couldn't say that 1600 or more people attacked this building to stop the peaceful transfer of power. So let's not lose sight of the fact that all of these FBI guys and Tulsi Gabbard crawling around Georgia is about serving the president's pathological inability to accept that he lost the 2020 elections. So there's that point. Second point, of course, is I do oversight of the intelligence community. What the CIA and the NSA can do, what they do against our enemies in terms of surveillance, what they do against our enemies in terms of COVID activity. You know, you just need to watch a couple of movies to know how very, very serious these authorities and capabilities are. And that is why we draw a very, very bright line between what they do abroad. Let me say that again, abroad, to our enemies, and whether they can operate inside the United States. And the answer is no, they cannot, because the FBI and other law enforcement have. Have the training to know how to violate, not to violate, American civil liberties. So, again, the presence of the DNI at a law enforcement operation in Georgia, you know, think about that as, you know, like having the CIA, CIA director show up at a, you know, local Kiwanis argument. It makes no sense. It is a, you know, at least a perceptual violation of some really, really bright lines. We have to make sure that the incredible capabilities of the American intelligence, intelligence community are never, ever turned against the American public.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you have evidence that they happen?

[Jim Himes]

I do not. I do not. And if I did, I, you know, would be doing a lot of things, probably not standing here right now. But the point is that when Tulsi Gabbard shows up at a law enforcement operation, that is the question that everybody does ask and should ask. Because what's next? What's next? Our all of a sudden our satellites, you know, going to start following Americans? You know, she didn't need to open that line of inquiry, but her presence there causes that sort of anxiety.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right? Makes these all legitimate questions. Congressman, thank you. Thank you so much for the time today and your clarity on these confusing and rather opaque stories. We appreciate you.

[Jeff Duncan]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

When we come back, the serious damage, Donald Trump's immigration policy, not just to the people, the citizens and the immigrants alike of Minnesota, but to that state's businesses and economy. When we come back, we'll be joined by a small business owner who is using her power and taking a stand against ICE and wonders why the state's biggest corporations aren't doing the same thing. Beyond a lot of the stories we cover here, the emotional and the mental toll of the Trump administration's ICE policies and abuses in Minneapolis, the city is also reeling economically due to business closures, staffing shortages, because a lot of people in that city, a lot of employees at those businesses, are afraid to go to work. Their kids are afraid to go to school. We've seen reports of people staying in their houses with the curtains drawn. Other people just don't want to go outside. In what has become basically a militarized federal force in their city. The New York Times is reporting this quote. Although it will take time for official data to arrive, companies across the region have already reported steep declines in revenues. The city of Minneapolis estimates The cost is $20 million each week. That steep decline is not stopping hundreds of small business owners from taking a stand by closing their businesses in solidarity with their neighbors and protesters in Minneapolis. For Erin Flavin, the owner of Marigold and Honeycomb Salon, she says it's scary from a business perspective to participate in the strikes. But she says this quote, I feel like it is a really important thing to do for people to be hidden and scared to go out in their community and for me to expect people to come in and just purchase stuff. I mean, I don't even know what the point of it is right now. Notably absent, though, from that principled stand and those strikes are some of the large Minnesota based businesses like retail giant Target, which has yet to take a stand on ICE's crackdown in Minneapolis. Besides signing onto a letter calling for a de escalation of tensions, we're joined now by Erin Flavin, the owner of Marigold and the Honeycomb salon in Minneapolis. Thank you so much for being here.

[Erin Flavin]

Thanks for asking me to be here.

[Nicole Wallace]

I have felt like this is the part of the story that we're not doing a very good job of covering. So just tell me how you arrived at the decision to close your business and what that cost you both economically and what your concerns are long term for the health of your business.

[Erin Flavin]

Yeah, I mean, it started even before we did the economic blackout. I mean, people have been really nervous about going out doing anything. Just the overall vibe here is very low. You know, parents have their kids in their houses, they're not able to go.

[Anne Applebaum]

To work.

[Erin Flavin]

And the kids aren't able to go to school and our kids are scared. It's. Yeah, I mean, it's been really bad. I mean, it is not business as usual. You know, there's a lot of tenderness that you have to take with your neighbors right now coming in. I mean, it feels, it always feels like, you know, I'm thankful that people even, you know, walk in here. But now especially just the show of support, it's important. I mean, some businesses can't even open because, you know, they're scared if they have brown skin.

[Nicole Wallace]

What does it say to you that, you know, a small business has a smaller sort of cushion and margin and you're taking the stand in solidarity with your neighbors and feeling the vibe of your community. What does it say to you that bigger companies with much bigger financial cushions aren't?

[Erin Flavin]

I mean, it says a lot for the way that the country is run as a whole. I mean, I mean, this is the way it is. I mean, people are saying that there's not impact on the economy right now and it's all of us that are making under $200,000. We're, we're the ones who are taking the hit. And anybody else, they're not paying attention because it's not important to them because they're not impacted the way just, you know, the lower to middle class people are and there's more of us than them. It doesn't make any sense to me that these bigger corporations haven't taken a stand. I mean, if they're employing our community, they should be standing up for our community.

[Nicole Wallace]

A lot of people, I think, who've really felt like the last year and couple months have been appalling. Derive a lot of inspiration and strength from Minneapolis, but what does Minneapolis need from those of us who are drawing our strength from you?

[Erin Flavin]

Understanding and try to, you know, get I mean, it has been really cool to see all over the world people paying attention to what's happening here again. I mean, we're no strangers to, you know, this sort of really difficult time. But I mean, yeah, I just, I don't know what it's going to take to change things here. It's really, it's really dystopian. I don't know how else to say it, that some of the world isn't or our country isn't on the same page. It just feels very confusing to me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Erin, can we ask you to come back and keep us updated on how you're doing and how your neighbors in your community is doing? I, too, it's great to get to talk to you and we admire the stand that you're taking. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with us.

[Erin Flavin]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

When we come back, what is being called one of the darkest days in the history of one of the country, country's most celebrated newspapers. We'll bring you that reporting next. The Washington Post this morning announced a major wave of layoffs. A third of its staff has been laid off. The layoffs include the elimination of multiple foreign bureaus, the entire sports section. The newspaper is, of course, owned by billionaire Jeff Bezos. He's the founder of Amazon. He's the world's fourth richest man. Back in December of 2024, he called himself, quote, a doting parent of the Washington Post. The HuffPost puts it puts the gutting of the Washington Post into stark perspective, writing that Bezos spent $40 million to acquire the rights to the Melania movie. He spent another $35 million to market it. His yacht, he has one of Those is worth $500 million and the average salary for a Washington Post reporter just under $100,000. The Washington Post itself reported a loss of $100 million in 2024. With the amount Bezos makes in a single week, a single week, he could cover five years of losses at the Post if he wanted to. Marty Barron, the former editor in chief of the Washington Post, called today one of the darkest days in the history of one of the world's greatest news organizations. We'll stay on top of that story. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. A reminder, former Attorney General Eric Holder is my guest on THIS WEEK'S episode of the Best People. He's brilliant. He speaks forcefully about the fight for justice that is underway and what we can all do right now to save democracy and the rule of law in our country. You can listen to our conversation right now by scanning the QR code on your screen. Thank you for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

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