“The fight for control over American elections”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – “The fight for control over American elections”
Host: Alicia Menendez (in for Nicolle Wallace)
Date: March 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the escalating efforts to influence and control American election systems, focusing on Donald Trump’s campaign against mail-in ballots, the controversial "Save America Act," and recent pushes for unprecedented use of federal agencies like ICE in electoral contexts. The discussion unpacks legal, political, and social implications, including attempts to undermine public trust in democracy and the chilling effects on civil liberties. A second segment covers new developments in the Justice Department's prosecution of Jerome Powell, as well as testimony regarding the impact of Trump-era immigration enforcement on American children and accountability issues within ICE.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump, Bannon, and the Campaign Against Mail-in Voting

[00:51–01:36; 04:02–04:58]

• Trump’s Ongoing Rhetoric: Trump continues to falsely allege that mail-in ballots are inherently fraudulent, pushing the conspiracy as a central pillar of his electoral strategy.

  “Mail in voting means mail in cheating. I call it mail in cheating. That’s what they’re good at. They’re professional cheaters.” – Steve Bannon quoting Trump [00:51]

• New Legislative Push: Trump is making the so-called "Save America Act" a top GOP priority to restrict mail-in ballots and tighten voter ID rules.

• Supreme Court Case: The episode references a pending Supreme Court decision about the legality of counting mail-in ballots received post-election day in Mississippi, warning adverse rulings could disenfranchise voters in at least 18 states.

  “If those nine justices decide...the sweeping aftershock...would ripple through at least 18 other states...potentially disenfranchising scores of voters, Republicans, Democrat, independents alike.” – Alicia Menendez [02:13]

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2. ICE at the Polls: Testing Legal Boundaries and Social Norms

[03:23–16:36]

• Bannon’s Proposal: Steve Bannon proposes using ICE agents at election sites, under the guise of preventing non-citizen voting.

  “I think we should have ICE agents at the polling places, because if you’re an illegal alien, you can’t vote, right?...If you’re an American citizen, you should be happy that ICE is there.” – Steve Bannon [03:45]

• Expert Legal Pushback:

  • Sean Morales Doyle, Brennan Center: Deploying armed federal agents at polling sites is a federal crime, and the executive branch has no legitimate role in direct election administration.

    “There are already multiple laws that make the idea of deploying ICE...to polling places...a federal crime. It’s a federal crime for any federal employees to interfere in our elections.” – Sean Morales Doyle [04:58]

  • Michael Feinberg, former FBI: U.S. election law draws from a historical legacy of abuse by law enforcement at polling stations, which statutes are designed to prevent.

    “There are extensive federal regulations prohibiting armed agents...from conducting official business at polling places...These aren’t ambiguous laws. They’re very clear cut.” – Michael Feinberg [06:20]

• Socialization of Surveillance: Panelists warn that Trump’s directives — such as deploying ICE to airports during the shutdown — normalize the visible presence of federal agents in public life, eroding resistance to their presence in democratic spaces.

  “It is to socialize all of us to this idea that it is somehow normal to see federal agents everywhere that we go...” – Alicia Menendez [12:08]
  “ICE belongs at a polling place or in an airport as much as it belongs on stage at a Broadway musical, which is to say, not at all.” – Michael Feinberg [13:48]

• Feedback Loops & Media Ecosystems:
  Angela Corazon lays out how ideas originating on right-wing talk shows are amplified through conservative media, rising from listener calls to policy proposals Trump champions.

  “He’s...seeding the bottom of the base so that idea can incubate...and then makes its way up to a show that Trump does watch and then can be turned into policy. That is the Fox feedback loop with Trump in action.” – Angela Corazon [08:53]

• Intended Impact: Undermining Trust, Chilling Participation:

  • Goal is Sowing Doubt:

    “That is a big goal of this concerted campaign...to undermine public faith in our elections, to sow that doubt and make people have a reason to question the outcome...” – Sean Morales Doyle [17:09]

  • Call to Action:

    “You have to go vote...participate in talking to your representatives...volunteer to be a poll worker...engage in democracy. It’s more important now than ever.” – Sean Morales Doyle [18:19]

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3. Department of Justice: The Thin Case Against Jerome Powell

[20:19–24:49]

• No Evidence Case:
  New Washington Post reporting reveals that DOJ prosecutors admitted, behind closed doors, that they had no evidence of wrongdoing in the criminal investigation of Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell.

  “No, judge, we don’t have evidence at this time...that kind of screams out that you don’t have an articulable basis to conclude a crime has been committed.” – Carol Ledding [23:01]

• Judicial Rebuke:

  • Judge Boasberg of the D.C. District Court quashed the subpoenas against Powell, ruling the case “so thin and unsubstantiated...they are pretextual.”

• Prosecutorial Ethics and Political Pressure:

  “The Justice Manual explicitly states, you do not try and bring charges to a grand jury unless you think you can actually obtain an indictment. To do so otherwise is to ignore your ethical duties...” – Michael Feinberg [24:49]

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4. New Justice Department Appointments: Protecting Legal Process

[25:52–28:29]

• Judges Step In:
  Federal courts are compelled to appoint career prosecutors as interim U.S. attorneys in multiple districts, following turbulence and partisan appointments under the Trump administration.

  • Absence of proper appointments led judges to remove Trump loyalists like Alina Habab from acting as U.S. attorneys.
  • Judiciary’s intervention is depicted as necessary to ensure prosecutions and due process continue legally and credibly.

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5. Epstein Estate: House Oversight Testimonies

[30:28–37:42]

• Depositions Released:
  House Oversight releases depositions of Darren Indyke (Epstein’s lawyer) and Richard Kahn (his accountant).

  • Both deny knowledge of Epstein’s crimes.

• Contradictory Evidence:

  • Reporter Lisa Rubin cites victims and a former Epstein chef who claim Indyke specifically told them not to cooperate with law enforcement, contradicting Indyke’s testimony.

    “At least two victims told the FBI specifically that Darren Endyke had instructed them not to talk to law enforcement...” – Lisa Rubin [33:00]

  • Perjury implications are unclear due to lack of prior interviews with Indyke by law enforcement.

• Power Imbalances with Victims:

  “I will be the first to admit [law enforcement] has not often treated survivors...in a way that we can always be proud of…If [these lawyers] were attempting to dissuade people from cooperating…you might have a potential obstruction charge.” – Michael Feinberg [36:09]

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6. Immigration Enforcement: Impact on American Children

[38:12–45:12]

• Personal Testimony:

  • An 18-year-old describes family separation, with his sister (a cancer patient) left without care after mass deportation.

    “You can say...these awful immigration policies don't impact US citizens, but that's a lie. My family was ripped apart from me...my baby sister could die as a result of this mess.” [38:12]

• ProPublica Data:

  • In the first seven months of Trump’s second term, authorities detained parents of at least 11,000 US citizen children — averaging over 50 American kids each day with a parent pulled into detention.

• Policy Critique:

  • Current ICE operations emphasizing daily quotas and indiscriminate patrols increase risks to families, including American citizens, rather than focusing on targeted investigations.

    “We've had this situation where...almost 6 million US citizen kids have at least one parent who's unauthorized...This has always been a risk. The difference is...this administration has decided that it's just not going to consider having a US citizen child [as] a factor.” – Dara Lind [40:18]

• Incidents of Abuse & Lawlessness:

  • Testimony from children and reporting detail instances of brutality, theft, and lack of internal accountability within ICE.

    “They were so brutal that you needed medical attention...these agents didn’t just take your phone. They sold it. They pawned it at a kiosk for $250 cash. Is that correct? Yes, sir.” [43:22]

• Legislative Response:

  • Congressional Democrats push for limits on indiscriminate ICE patrols.

    “They're saying, please stop the enforcement at schools, at churches, at other communities, places. That's basic...” – Angela Corazon [44:24]

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Memorable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Mail in voting means mail in cheating. That's what they're good at.” – Steve Bannon quoting Trump [00:51]
• “...deploying ICE or any other armed federal agents...is a federal crime...We're just not okay with the administration crossing this line.” – Sean Morales Doyle [04:58]
• “ICE belongs at a polling place...as much as it belongs on stage at a Broadway musical, which is to say, not at all.” – Michael Feinberg [13:48]
• “That is a big goal...to undermine public faith in our elections...so that they can attempt to subvert those outcomes...” – Sean Morales Doyle [17:09]
• “No, judge, we don’t have evidence at this time.” – DOJ prosecutor, paraphrased by Carol Ledding [23:01]
• “At least two victims told the FBI specifically that Darren Endyke had instructed them not to talk to law enforcement.” – Lisa Rubin [33:00]
• “That's 11,000 families like the one we just heard from. That's a lot of US Citizen kids...” – Dara Lind [40:18]
• “They sold it. They pawned [the phone] at a kiosk for $250 cash. Is that correct? Yes, sir.” – Congressional hearing [43:22]

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Segment Guide (Timestamps)

• Trump Rhetoric/Mail-in Ballots: [00:51–02:13]
• ICE at Polling Stations Debate: [03:23–16:36]
• DOJ’s case against Jerome Powell: [20:19–24:49]
• U.S. Attorney Appointments: [25:52–28:29]
• Epstein Depositions: [30:28–37:42]
• Deportation & American Children: [38:12–45:12]

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Tone and Language

The episode is urgent but analytic, with a focus on exposing the mechanics of anti-democratic strategies while highlighting the legal and moral counterarguments. The guests use direct, matter-of-fact language, occasionally interlaced with sardonic humor or rhetorical questioning to highlight the abnormality of proposed actions (e.g., ICE at polling stations). Firsthand testimonies about immigration enforcement add an emotional, immediate tone to the latter part of the episode.

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Final Takeaway

This episode offers a sweeping, in-depth look at the orchestrated campaign to warp election rules and norms, the use of federal law enforcement for political means, threats to the independence of the justice system, and the devastating human consequences of punitive immigration policy—all set against the backdrop of ongoing resistance and demands for democratic engagement.

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Transcript

[Alicia Menendez]

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[Steve Bannon]

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[Sean Morales Doyle]

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[Steve Bannon]

Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch terms and [e-mail]. No mail in ballots. You know, corrupt mail in ballots. We're the only country in the world that does it that way. Corrupt as hell. We're the only country that doesn't. That does mail in voting. Mail in voting means mail in cheating. I call it mail in cheating. That's what they're good at. They're professional cheaters. No mail in ballots, right?

[Michael Feinberg]

We, we don't want to have mail

[Steve Bannon]

in ballots where they're mailed in from all parts of the place. Mail in ballots are crooked as hell. Mail in ballots make it automatically corrupt. If you have mail in ballots automatically, it's correct.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi again Everybody. It is five o' clock now in Washington D.C. i'm Alicia Menendez in today for Nicole Wallace. You know, you don't have to squint to recognize that Donald Trump what he ultimately wants the end game, complete and unfettered control over American election systems. The real question is what is he prepared to do? How far is he willing to go in order to make that a reality? You just heard him over the course of months hammer home a conspiracy theory he's repeated over the course of years that mail in ballots are somehow a vehicle for widespread voter fraud. And yet Trump is in the process of tightening his grip around that, along with voter ID and voter registration by virtue of the so called Save America act, something Trump insisted should be the number one priority right now for Republican lawmakers. Again, there's no mystery associated with where this is all headed. Trump is seeking full control over American elections An effort that extends well beyond legislation. Remember yesterday we told you about a case currently before the US Supreme Court having to do with the legality of a Mississippi law allowing mail in ballots postmarked by Election Day to be counted within five business days of the election. If those nine justices decide in favor of the Republican National Committee and insist such a rule is unconstitutional, the sweeping aftershock of would ripple through at least 18 other states and territories, potentially disenfranchised scores of voters, Republicans, Democrat, independents alike. Then there's Trump's effort to wrest control of sensitive voter data from states across the country. There were those raids on county election offices in Georgia and Arizona. And now there's this. Take it away, Steve Bannon.

[Steve Bannon]

Mike, one question. I want the mainstream media's head to blow up today. We can use what's happening with these ICE helping out at the airports. We can use this as a test run, as a test case to get to really perfect ICE's involvement in the 2026 midterm election. Sir? Yeah, I think we should have ICE agents at the polling places, because if

[Sean Morales Doyle]

you're an illegal alien, you can't vote, right? It's against the law.

[Steve Bannon]

It's a federal crime for you to vote in federal. And so if you're an American citizen,

[Sean Morales Doyle]

you should be happy that ICE is there, because you're not gonna have illegal aliens canceling out your vote.

[Angela Corazon]

All right?

[Alicia Menendez]

I mean, there are already laws in the books to prevent that. Undocumented people don't vote in elections. But federal agents of Donald Trump at polling places, another one of those small steps towards complete control over American elections. Just like the war on mail in ballots. Which brings us back to where we began. Donald Trump, who started this hour with a months long crusade on the, quote, unquote, cheating associated with mail in voting, evidently voted by mail this week in Tuesday's special election in Palm Beach County, Florida. Go figure. And that is where we begin this hour. Director of the Brennan Center's Voting Rights and Elections Program, Sean Morales Doyle is here. Also with us, former Assistant Special Agent in Charge at the FBI and National Security and Intelligence analyst Michael Feinber. And Angela Corazon is still with me at the table. Sean, your reaction to that Bannon exchange?

[Sean Morales Doyle]

Well, as you said, there are already multiple laws that make the idea of deploying ICE or any other armed federal agents or the troops or, you know, any of that to polling places. It is a federal crime to do that. It's a federal crime for any federal employees to interfere in our elections. I understand that People hear that something is illegal and that doesn't necessarily convince them that this administration won't try it. That's fair. But I think there are a lot of legal tools available to stop this kind of thing if it should happen. But I think more importantly, we need to all have a consensus that not only is this illegal, but that this is just so far out of step with what is okay in our democracy, that the administration knows that if they were to cross this line, the people would not stand for it. That this is like what we just saw in Minneapolis, a line that we're just not okay with the administration crossing. This is not how we run elections in this country.

[Alicia Menendez]

Michael Feinberg, former Assistant Special Agent in Charge at the FBI Tell me, as we build that consensus around what is and isn't legal, is it legal for the President of the United States to deploy ICE to polling places?

[Michael Feinberg]

No, it is not. There are extensive federal regulations prohibiting armed agents and officers of the United States government from conducting official business at polling places. When I was still in the FBI and we used to go vote, we were explicitly instructed to obfuscate any weaponry or identification we had marking us as law enforcement officers, so there would not even be the appearance of impropriety. And it's important to note these aren't ambiguous laws. They're very clear cut. And they're clear cut because our nation has an unfortunate history in some parts of the country of using police officers and armed agents specifically to dissuade people from going to polling places and to depress voter outturn. So this isn't something that was cooked up in order to thwart Trump or the MAGA movement. This is a longstanding series of statutes based on unpleasant events from American history that we need to endeavor forever.

[Alicia Menendez]

Not to repeat, Angela, I always turn to you to help me understand sort of the context in which these things are said by the amplifiers, the extent to which they are stress testing just the environment, trying to change. Chip away at the consensus that Sean referenced. Consider how it is that the President of the United States got to the idea that we're talking about yesterday of ICE at airports. I know Media Manager did a lot of research on this, but I'm going to read from Semaphore On Friday, Linda from Arizona called into the Clay and Buck show to volunteer that I think I have a solution to the TSA problem. We need to bring in ICE agents. Host Clay Travis replied, Linda, I have to say that's kind of a brilliant idea. That evening, Travis, the founder of the Right Leaning Fox owned sports site Outkick floated the idea on Fox News to host Charlie Hurt. The next morning, Trump posted to Truth Social that he would move our brilliant and patriotic ICE agents to the airports where they will do security like no one has ever seen before, including the immediate arrest of all illegal immigrants who have come into our country, with heavy emphasis on those from Somalia. So this is how you get the President's attention. Is Bannon messaging to the President or is he messaging to the base?

[Steve Bannon]

He's messaging to the base. He's trying to get to the bottom of that food chain so that it works its way up and sort of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And so it's sort of a twofer there because he's also talking to Mike Davis, who the Wall Street Journal recently reported about the influence that he has over doj, and also that he regularly talks to Trump. So he's trying to hit key influencers, the peer to peer that he can directly influen and then more importantly, seed the bottom of the base so that idea can incubate and then work its way up so that there are other Lindas, but maybe from Minnesota or New York that are calling into Sean Hannity's show and to other places and espousing similar ideas and moving the narrative along so that it then makes its way up to a show that Trump does watch and then can be turned into policy. That is the Fox feedback loop with

[Alicia Menendez]

Trump in action, Sean, from ICE at airports to ICE at polling places. Bannon floated it. And then you have this from Fox News. Take a listen.

[Steve Bannon]

Now the Democrats are saying we're going to make Americans wait in line to get on a flight to protect illegals who cut the line to get into the country.

[Michael Feinberg]

Why?

[Alicia Menendez]

What's the demand?

[Steve Bannon]

Well, what are the demands? They say no ICE agents can be at a polling station.

[Michael Feinberg]

What's the trouble with that?

[Steve Bannon]

Jessica, what's the problem? If illegals aren't voting, why can't ICE agents be at a polling station?

[Alicia Menendez]

What is the problem with that? Sean, talk us through it.

[Sean Morales Doyle]

Why would ICE agents be at a polling station? This is our immigration enforcement, right? There's no place in which I could see them being less relevant to legitimate government behavior than at polling places where citizens are casting their ballots. Let's start take a step back. The federal government does not run our elections. The executive branch has no legitimate role in setting the rules that govern our elections and running our elections. The only legitimate role they have is in law enforcement, in enforcing our voting laws. That is not ICE's job, right? That is maybe the FBI in parts of the Department of Justice that can enforce our rules that are meant to protect voters, like the Voting Rights act of 1965, which by the way is one of the things that makes it illegal for ICE to be at the polls. But it is not ice's job. There is no law that ICE is enforcing that they need to be at polling places to enforce. And as was said earlier, there's a reason why there are statutes on the books that were passed during the Civil War in 1865 that say actually we can't think of a legitimate reason why there would ever be any kind of armed federal agent at polling places, any kind that is a criminal offense. Because there's just no role for armed federal agents at the places where we are voting. And there is a real concern that having them at places where we are voting is going to chill the constitutionally protected rights of voters to participate in our democracy. The idea that only non citizens, that only people who are here without lawful presence have reason to be scared of ICE is absurd. In the wake of the kinds of things that we have seen happen in Minneapolis and in Chicago, in la, we all have reason to worry about that. And the idea that that wouldn't chill American citizens from participating in our elections is just ignoring reality.

[Alicia Menendez]

Michael When I see those ICE agents unmasked, notably inside American airports, it reminds me of when I started to see National Guard troops here in Washington D.C. like kids on corners, not exactly knowing what it was they were supposed to do. Which is part of the point is to socialize all of us to this idea that it is somehow normal to see federal agents everywhere that we go, everywhere that we interact with civic life. And you have the New York Times describing Trump's relationship with ice like this. Mr. Trump has increasingly used ICE to try to achieve personal and political objectives, deploying a force with a quasi military bearing around the country with a message that he intends to not just carry out his anti immigration agenda, but to also enforce his views on constituencies and states that have opposed him. Last year he sent officers into large Democratic run cities as part of a highly visible immigration enforcement operation. He rushed teams to Minneapolis to pursue Somali immigrants accused of fraud and viral videos. Now he is pushing agents to airports to help the Transportation Security Administration and pressure Democrats into folding in the weeks long shutdown fight. I would say that any of those TSA agents who are not getting paid but have an ICE agent over their shoulder who's not actually able to look through people's personal Identification would quobble with this idea that they are actually there to help. But it does seem that all of this amounts to the president believing at least that he has a private police force. What is to stop him from deploying them as such?

[Michael Feinberg]

Well, look, dhs, of which ICE is a part, is one of the newest and least established in terms of having an institutional culture, law enforcement agencies in the United States. And as a result, it doesn't have the sort of informal guardrails that the Drug Enforcement Administration or the Federal Bureau of Investigation has, where its personnel just intuitively know their oath is to the Constitution and not an individual. We've seen some of the unions that represent people in DHS make explicit presidential endorsements in election years, oftentimes for President Trump. So the fact that he would use them as his sort of private army really shouldn't surprise any of us. But that doesn't mean they belong any of the places they are. ICE belongs at a polling place or in an airport as much as it belongs on stage at a Broadway musical, which is to say, not at all.

[Alicia Menendez]

I bet some of those guys can dance and sing. I mean, you see my point about the socialization that begins to happen when you are accustomed to seeing these guys in their uniforms basically everywhere you go.

[Steve Bannon]

That's right. And that is a big. And that is what Bannon is trying to say, is that they are trying. And there's an important thing sort of tie in here with the question you just had with Michael, because one, they're trying to make it much more acceptable and all. And that's not only gonna be in these big displays like we saw in Minnesota, where it's scary and they're coming with mas overwhelming force, it's a normal part of life. And if they're picking a few people off the line, and that's one of the things that they've been saying in talk radio as they continue to pull Bannon's threat, is that they're getting used to sniffing out individuals that are suspicious on these lines. It's practice and training.

[Alicia Menendez]

Sounds a lot like racial profiling.

[Steve Bannon]

It sure does. And that this is all part of it, that it starts to become even more normal and acceptable in places you don't expect. But in the lead up to your question with Michael, one of the things you said is that ICE was sent in a response to viral videos. Now, let's play this out. There's a entire phalanx of investigative creators, just like that Nick Shirley guy, that are about to be deployed around election misinformation. So now what happens when you have a video that's sort of totally based off of nonsense, gets uplifted in the right wing media, makes its way to Fox News, It's a new big story. Then Trump has a pretext to sort of send these now figures that have been socialized to be more present into these areas where these videos prop up. That's the scenario that we're playing out. It's not just gonna be out of nowhere. Right now it's the crisis at airports because of tsa and it seems dispersed, but it'll be much more target targeted and focused as we get closer and closer to the election. That's the real threat. And so when it's more normal, it's gonna be hard to mount a kind of resistance to just their sheer presence alone.

[Alicia Menendez]

Sean, we have about 60 seconds left. But I just want to layer on to Angelo's analysis there about the predicate that they are setting that they've also now sown doubt about id. They've also sown doubt about mail in voting such that. I mean, you heard the conservative justices questioning yesterday. It does not look like they're going to uphold Mississippi's law, but let's say somehow they did. The doubt is already there. The doubt is there on every voter that goes to the poll. Some of their work, Sean, is already done.

[Sean Morales Doyle]

That's undoubtedly true. And I think it's important to know that that is a big goal of this concerted campaign from the administration to undermine our elections, is just to undermine public faith in our elections, to cede that doubt and make people have a reason to question the outcome of elections so that they can attempt to subvert those outcomes after the fact. That. And that is why I understand that it can sound odd when I say, when I'm here to talk about the threats to our democracy and the problems we're facing, to tell people that the only way to save this is to actually invest in that democracy and participate in it. But that's the reality. We cannot let them win this battle by just undermining people's faith and trust to the point where people throw up their hands and walk away. This is the moment, the most important moment, for people to engage in all of the ways that it is appropriate for citizens to engage in our democracy. That means go vote. You have to go vote. But it also means, you know, participating in talking to your representatives in Congress about the Safe America Act. It means volunteering to be a poll worker. It might mean engaging in peaceful protest, but it means engaging in democracy. It's more important now than ever you

[Alicia Menendez]

have to overpower them by engaging in democracy. Sean Morales Doyle, Angela Corazon, thank you both so much for being with us today. Michael Feinberg, you are sticking with me. When we return, a stunning admission by a Justice Department prosecutor who admitted behind closed doors that the DOJ had no evidence of wrongdoing by federal Chairman Jerome Powell when it unsuccessfully tried to indict him. That new reporting is next. Also ahead for us, harrowing testimony from parents, from teachers, from young people themselves, speaking about how the Trump administration's cruel immigration policies are doing seriously damage to children, their chilling stories and the prospects that will lead to change later in the hour. And some breaking news to bring you. The House Oversight Committee has just released the videos from the closed door depositions of two of Jeffrey Epstein's longtime confidants, his longtime lawyer, Darren Indyke and his accountant, Richard Kahn. What we are learning from those two depositions ahead Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.

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[Alicia Menendez]

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[Carol Ledding]

That's right, Alicia. I mean, what my former employer, the Washington Post, is rightfully reporting is additional transcript information from, from that Q and A essentially between Chief Judge Boasberg and the prosecutors who were trying to keep their subpoenas alive while Jerome Powell, through his attorneys, was trying to quash them. And in that back and forth, the lead prosecutor on the case said, no, judge, I'm paraphrasing, of course, no, judge, we don't have evidence at this time. And that, that kind of screams out that you don't have an articulable basis to conclude a crime has been committed. As we reported on Ms. Now, first, about a week and a few days ago, if my memory serves, Judge Boasberg ruled very, very unusually, by the way, he was going to quash these subpoenas and release the decision to quash because there was essentially no evidence of any cr. And that made him uncomfortable, very uncomfortable, based on Donald Trump's previous pattern of telling the Justice Department who to prosecute, who he didn't like. And that's really not the way the law in this country works. It's not how the Department of Justice works, it's not how investigations are supposed to open, and it's not how subpoenas are issued.

[Alicia Menendez]

Michael Feinberg, a judge looking for evidence. I mean, what does it do to the level of trust between DOJ prosecutors and judges to have this admission that they themselves knew there was no there there?

[Michael Feinberg]

So, look, I think that level of trust has been destroyed across the country, with the exception of a slim majority on the Supreme Court at this point. And the reason for that is, in making this admission, DOJ has essentially copped to violating its own regulations and policies to the extent that there is a bible of prosecutorial guidelines and ethics. It's something called the Justice Manual. And the Justice Manual explicitly states, you do not try and bring charges to a grand jury unless you think you can actually obtain an indictment. To do so otherwise is to ignore your ethical duties as an officer of the United States government. And what the testimony that you and Carol just spoke about clearly demonstrates is that they knew they had no chance of getting an indictment, but they brought this to the grand jury anyway, presumably to simply please their political overlords.

[Alicia Menendez]

All right, Carol, I want to pivot to another U.S. attorney's office. Federal judges appointed a career prosecutor to be the U.S. attorney in New Jersey. They seem to have ended just this long standoff with the doj. What more can you tell us?

[Carol Ledding]

Yes, this is a pretty significant impasse that has now been, I guess, patched up, so to speak. The chief judge in this case previously had said that the U.S. department of justice and the Trump administration seemed to be more concerned about who was running this office than whether or not the office was properly running. Robert Frazier is now the fourth U.S. attorney to have this job since Donald Trump took the the presidency for the second time in January of 2025. And this piece essentially was brokered when the federal court conferred with senior Justice Department officials about who they might all agree would be a good, at least temporary choice for a U.S. attorney in this position solely for the goal of moving forward with cases. Alicia I want to underscore something about how serious it is to not have this position properly and legally filled. I mean, it meant that judges were kicking prosecutors out of the courtroom for sentencing and for other key decisions in cases because they couldn't, in their view, accept what was being presented by this office without legally appointed leaders. Most famously Alina Habab, a close Trump ally and one of his former attorneys had been serving in that office, and she was removed by the federal court. It is the total authority of the federal court to appoint a U.S. attorney in these jobs as they have tried to do or come close to doing in four other cases around the country. It is their authority to do that when a nominee has either stayed in the job past 120 days and has not been but confirmed by the Senate. And that's what has happened in the Eastern District of Virginia. That's what has happened in upstate New York. That has what is what has happened in New Jersey. And here we are in this situation where the judges have finally met with senior justice officials just to get the office kind of rolling forward and have criminal prosecutions and law enforcement handled ably and legally.

[Alicia Menendez]

I appreciate you reminding us of the stakes of not having that position filled. Carol Lennon, thank you as always so much for joining us and sharing your reporting. Michael Feinberg sticks with me. When we return, we are getting our our first look at the depositions of two of Jeffrey Epstein's closest confidants. What they told the House Oversight Committee about Epstein and his crimes. We'll have that after a quick break.

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[Alicia Menendez]

Some breaking news news we have been waiting for. The House Oversight committee has just released the videos and transcripts of their questioning of two members of Jeffrey Epstein's inner circle. Both Richard Kahn, Epstein's longtime accountant, and Darren Indyke, Epstein's lawyer, both reportedly told the committee they had absolutely no knowledge of the heinous crimes their client was committing. Kahn and Indyke are now the co executors of Epstein's estate. I want to bring in Ms. Now senior legal reporter Lisa Rubin. Michael Feinberg is still with us. All right, Lisa, I know that you have been combing through all of this. What can you tell us?

[Lisa Rubin]

Well, Lisa, we don't have transcripts of either one of these depositions. So I and others here at MSNOW have been trying to watch these videos which were released approximately a half an hour ago. That being said, in the last half hour we've made some really interesting discoveries about the testimony of both Darren Kahn and, and I'm sorry, Darren Indyke and Richard Kahn, the co executives of the Epstein estate who also served as his attorney and accountant respectively during their lives. And in particular, one thing that really caught my attention was a question that Mr. Endike was asked about whether he had any contact with the Epstein victims. Here, take a listen.

[Steve Bannon]

During the previous hour, I believe the minority had asked you if you ever had any contact with, with victims. I believe you answered no. Is that right? That's. I think, I think, I think so, yes. I mean that's when you say contact other than assistance. Right. So for the record, you never told victims not to contact or speak with law enforcement, is that right? I can. So the answer is yes. I never told anybody not to, not to speak with law enforcement. I remember one or two occasions and I don't know when and I think this was in the early investigation of the later investigation that there were, there, there were people who were concerned that law enforcement was calling them and the defense counsel, who they didn't know asked me to call them and tell them that they could have a lawyer if they want, that they didn't have to speak to them if they didn't want. But I never told them not to speak to one I simply related the statement from the defense counsel that if they wanted a lawyer, they could have one provided.

[Lisa Rubin]

And Alicia, one of the reasons that response caught my attention is because I and others at msnow did some reporting about what people had to say about Darren Endyke when they themselves were interviewed by law enforcement. You, of course, know that literally hundreds of witnesses were interviewed by the FBI and the Department of Justice in the course of their two Epstein related investigations, the first in Florida in 2006 through 2008 and then again in the Southern District beginning in 2019 and lasting through Ghislaine Maxwell's conviction in December of 2021. And we discovered that at least two victims told the FBI specifically that Darren Endyke had instructed them not to talk to law enforcement. Not that he said to them that it was their option and that a lawyer would be provided for them if they want. There was also a former personal chef of Jeffrey Epstein's who also spoke to law enforcement and gave them a very similar narrative that his. He remembers an interaction with Darren Endyke during which he was told, do not speak to law enforcement if you are approached. That was during a period of time where they were concerned that this particular gentleman might be served with papers. And Darren Endyke, according to this man, the former personal chef, told him, if somebody tries to approach you with something, do not accept it.

[Alicia Menendez]

Is there the possibility then, Lisa, of perjury here?

[Lisa Rubin]

You know, it's not clear. And one of the reasons it's not clear is because Darren Indyke himself was never interviewed by law enforcement during either of those investigations. Something that I still find flummoxing, Alicia, and that's true of Richard Kahn as well. As far as I understand it, nobody associated with the federal government, neither the FBI nor the Department of Justice ever sat down with either of these people. And yet if you talk to people close to the victims or you talk to the victims themselves, it's clear that these were not exactly people that they didn't know to exist. That's particularly true with respect to Mr. Endike.

[Alicia Menendez]

I'm struck, Michael, by some of the reporting that Lisa referenced that she's done for Ms. Now, one of the survivors that she referenced, a Polish ex model, talks about the fact that that Indyk called her into his office, told her not to talk to law enforcement. That same woman spoke again to the FBI and prosecutors two months later. She mentioned that Epstein encouraged her to seek Indike's assistance with her immigration status, but that Indike was unable to help. She reiterated that Indike had directed her to contact him if she ever needed help, and, quote, never talked to the police. All of that reporting to me. Michael Feinberg, sort of a reminder of just the vulnerable state that a lot of these women found themselves in. Right. Go to this guy. He'll help you with your immigration paperwork. But don't talk to the police. You know, one of the things that keeps coming up in the course of these files is the fact there are not perfect victims, there are not perfect survivors. And yet we are reminded that the power dynamics over and over again were not in these women's favorite.

[Michael Feinberg]

No, of course not. And look, I worked in American law enforcement for the majority of my adult life, and I will be the first to admit it has not often treated survivors or victims of sexual abuse or sexual assault in a way that we can always be proud of. Now, I will note, though, that if any of these individuals were representing Jeffrey Epstein, as they were, there is a very high bar to overcome, both under case law and under DOJ policy that would allow investigators or prosecutors to interview them as a potential witness. The only way that that could be done is if you could show that somebody acting in a legal capacity for a defendant was engaging in crime or fraud themselves to help that defendant. Now, that case could certainly be made here. If they were attempting to dissuade people from cooperating with a federal investigation, you might have a potential obstruction charge. But it's important to note, as we just saw in that video clip, these are individuals who choose their words very carefully and played things very close to the edge. And it's not clear to me, based on what we've seen or what's been reported thus far, that investigators or prosecutors would have been able to overcome that hurdle, even to just speak with them.

[Alicia Menendez]

Lisa Rubin, thank you so much for going through that Indyck and Con video. I know you're waiting for the transcripts. Once you have that, we'd love to have you back. Michael Feinberg, thank you so much for being with us. When we return, Even in an administration from for which cruelty is so often the point, the testimony we heard today from children on the brutality they are suffering at the hands of immigration agents was extraordinary. Gonna share some of their stories after a short break.

[Steve Bannon]

The situation is a nightmare that I can't wake up from, that my family can't wake up from. My baby sister needs the care, needs to see her doctors, but she needs to get the care alongside her family. I need my family to come home. I'm 18 years old. I still need to support my parents. I need to be around my siblings. I've been dreaming of going to college, but that isn't something I can do without the support of my support of support system, both financially or emotionally. You can say whatever, you can say all you want about these awful immigration policies don't impact US Citizens, but that's a lie. My family was ripped apart from me and my future along with him. My baby sister could die as a result of this mess.

[Alicia Menendez]

That was 18 year old. An 18 year old who testified in a hearing today under a pseudonym due to fears of ICE retribution about what his life has been like since ICE deported his family, including his little sister who has brain cancer, after they were detained by ICE on their way to the hospital to get her care. Comes on the heels of the ProPublica reporting we brought you yesterday showing the the scale of the impact of mass deportation on American children. ProPublica writes this quote, in the first seven months of Trump's second term, authorities arrested and detained parents of at least 11,000 U.S. citizen children, a number that, if the pace held up, will have roughly doubled by now. That's an average of more than 50 US citizen kids a day with a parent pulled into detention. Joining me at the table, former DHS official and White House advisor, founder of America's Promise, and senior fellow at Forward us, Andrea Flores. Also with us, senior fellow at the American Immigration Council, Dara Lind. In some ways, we have been here before where we have seen what the American immigration system can do to children. And yet this moment feels different for the sheer volume, the sheer cruelty and the fact that there are so many American Citizen children who are being swept up and they, I think you're totally

[Andrea Flores]

right to say that the difference is in the numbers. And like it's not, that's, that's not an academic difference, right? That's 11,000 families like the one we just heard from. That's a lot of US Citizen kids and of course, everyone in their communities, everyone whose parents are afraid to send them to school because they don't want to be the next headline. The thing is that there's no law saying you can't deport parents of US Citizen children. To the contrary, right? We've had this situation where, you know, almost 6 million US citizen kids have at least one parent who's unauthorized. And when you have a situation where kids can grow up, families can grow up in an environment where there's just never a chance for them to render themselves fully safe from deportation. This has always been a Risk. The difference is, of course, that this administration has decided that it's just not going to consider having a US Citizen child to, like, be a factor in. Maybe we should. Maybe we shouldn't go after this family. Maybe we should direct our resources somewhere else instead. Those are decisions that, you know, most law enforcement agents might make. Gee, is there, you know, is there something that we should maybe be considering that maybe we shouldn't do this for prudence sake because it would hurt someone? That's not a consideration that they have.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tell me about how what we just heard and the reporting that I just shared connects to the fight that is happening right now on Capitol Hill.

[Angela Corazon]

So, as Dara said, one thing that's different is that there's no time and there's no interest in thinking about who they are picking up and why. Just trying to hit daily quotas. And they're doing these indiscriminate roving patrols, which is exactly what Democrats are focused on ending now. There are rumors that the White House has offered to suspend funding for one part of ice, enforcement removal operations. That's one small piece of the agency. But they still have delegated authority for other federal agents, whether that's Border Patrol, whether that's Drug Enforcement Administration, to continue to do these types of arrests where they're even less trained to think about family interest factors. And so if Dems can hold the line on that piece and say we still need to end the indiscriminate roving patrols, that would at least reduce some of these impacts. Because a lot of these cases, we hear, you know, a parent is getting picked up, just going back and forth to work. That is the type of patrolling we don't need. You need to go back to targeted investigations, and that will reduce some of these impacts.

[Alicia Menendez]

That point about this really operating more like a rogue police force was echoed in today's hearing. I want to play just a little bit more sound.

[Steve Bannon]

They were so. They were so brutal that you needed medical attention. As you can see here, a nurse at the hospital where you were taken actually called 911 to report to the police that you had been choked and beaten, and you were repeatedly called slurs by the officers. Is that correct? Yes, sir. You were told the agents that you told that you had filmed this on their cell phone. Is that right? Yes, sir. And that's when they took your phone away? Yes, sir. These agents didn't just take your phone. They sold it. They pawned it at a kiosk for $250 cash. Is that correct? Yes, sir.

[Alicia Menendez]

If you have a force like ICE that has basically been told they have carte blanche and they will be protected by this president, as we saw with both the killings of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode in Minneapolis, what is to stop them from treating American children this way?

[Andrea Flores]

The levels of accountability that have to have been torn apart in order to get to a point where you can have these sort of things happen and be reported and there not even be any kind of fig leaf. Oh, we're looking into this. Oh, this shouldn't have happened. Any apology statement. There are just so many, like, boring bureaucratic things that Andrea and I could identify, like, oh, there's no internal affairs worth noting here. Oh, clear. No one's afraid that the DOJ is going to investigate them for criminal behavior. We've really expected the federal government to be able to police itself because traditionally, federal law enforcement has been more professional than its state and local equivalents in many ways. And without any of that, we're finding that there aren't external means to hold the government accountable. And this is why Congress is trying to kind of step in and fill that vacuum.

[Angela Corazon]

They're using what power they do have to say, you at least have to follow the Fourth Amendment. I mean, their requests are not big here. This isn't an immigration reform negotiation. Trump is sort of treating it, and some Republicans are treating it like they're asking for a lot. They're saying, please stop the enforcement at schools, at churches, at other communities, places. That's basic. And so I think Republicans are uncomfortable. I mean, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Kennedy say they're like, let's take the TSA funding. Right. This is uncomfortable for them. And I think Democrats should not give in, even with the spectacle of ICE at airports and other pieces, because it comes down not just to these kids, but to our communities. Do we want to still have, like, Border Patrol and other agents in our community, just racially profiling everywhere? I don't. And so I want Dems to keep fighting.

[Alicia Menendez]

It should be an easy question to answer. Andrea Flores, Dara Lind, thank you both so much for being with here. Gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back. Nicole's guest on this week's episode of the Best People, the Miami Herald's Julie Caber Brown, is the reporter who broke the Jeffrey Epstein scandal wide open and kept it in the public eye for years before any push for accountability from government. Listen to what she told Nicole about Ghislaine Maxwell. I'm sure early on she started saving all that material because for one thing, Epstein was starting to hang her out to dry a little bit toward the end. And if I'm sure she was smart enough to start getting some material together as protection for herself, quite frankly, I'm surprised it took them this long to put her into a cushy prison. You know, I, I think she really does know everything and that there's a little bit of a big question mark there about what Trump is going to do. And I think depending on what he but he does, it will show whether he is implicated, to be honest, because I think there's a very good chance that he's going to to pardon her. To watch the rest of Nicole's conversation with Julie out now on YouTube, just scan the QR code on your screen or listen by downloading wherever you get your podcasts. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you for spending part of this Tuesday with us. I will be back in one hour alongside Simone Sanders Townsend and Michael Steele for the weeknight. Oh, no, my coffee.

[Angela Corazon]

Bronnie here.

[Alicia Menendez]

New brawny 3 ply is now more absorbent. Wow. Got a clean shirt. Do you wear plaid?

[Angela Corazon]

Summon the strongest.