“The fruits of that unleashing”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace
Episode: “The fruits of that unleashing”
Date: September 22, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Deadline: White House, hosted by Nicolle Wallace, examines mounting threats to American democratic norms under the Trump administration. Wallace and her guests, including former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence Sue Gordon, activist and folk singer Joan Baez, Epstein survivor Danielle Bensky, legal analyst Christy Greenberg, and public health expert Dr. Erwin Redlener, discuss the chilling impact of government overreach on media freedom, erosion of the rule of law, failures of justice in the Epstein case, a new wave of anti-science policies in public health, and increasing cronyism in high-profile business deals. The episode sharply critiques the normalization of unconstitutional behavior, the assault on civil society, and the dangers posed by replacing expertise with conspiracy thinking.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Threat to Free Speech and Rule of Law

Timestamps: 01:22 – 12:23

• FCC Chairman’s Threat to Jimmy Kimmel

  • Wallace opens with the recent attempt by FCC Chairman Brendan Carr to pull comedian Jimmy Kimmel off the air, resulting in Disney suspending Kimmel “within hours,” before later reinstating him due to massive public outcry.
  • Wallace raises concerns about what this signals to the world – U.S. government intimidation of the press and businesses, the criminalization of political adversaries, and flagrant corruption.

• Erosion of American Values—Sue Gordon’s Perspective

  • Sue Gordon emphasizes that the “strength of America is the rule of law” (05:02), foundational to U.S. alliances and global standing:
    • “To see us with the attributes now that we would ascribe to totalitarian regimes is absolutely breathtaking. And we need to address it as a nation and we need to call it out.”
  • Gordon references warnings from Masha Gessen’s NYT column and S.A. Temulkaran's account of authoritarian drift: disrupting rational debate, capturing the state and media, and replacing law with loyalty (06:15).
  • On the world’s view, Gordon highlights the erosion of trust and the open question of whether America remains a “beacon” for free societies (08:12).
    • She ranks “freedom of speech” as the most central value under threat, more than just the Kimmel case: “To choose one idea and allow that to be the only one that persists is incredibly damaging” (09:10).

• Memorable Quotes

  • Sue Gordon (05:38):
    “The strength of America is the rule of law...it is what has given us friends over the years...To see us with attributes now that we would ascribe to totalitarian regimes is absolutely breathtaking.”
  • Nicolle Wallace on Trump’s impact (07:14):
    “Those are three things that Donald Trump could check off his honey do list last week.”

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2. Is This Moment Worse Than the 1960s? (With Joan Baez)

Timestamps: 12:23 – 17:36

• Wallace shares her recent interview with Joan Baez, reflecting on activism then and now.

• Joan Baez: “This is worse. I certainly see it as worse. Wish it weren't.” (12:51)

• Baez and Wallace discuss the lack of “glue”—societal cohesion—that bound earlier social movements, compared to today's fragmentation.

• Why Aren’t Americans United? Gordon’s Analysis

  • Gordon agrees this moment is worse, citing three drivers:
    1. Loss of Community: The digital environment fragments consensus—“we've lost a sense of community and shared purpose” (14:10).
    2. Information Silos: Opposing sides live in disconnected realities, eroding the capacity for debate.
    3. Exhaustion and Bombardment: Constant crises make it hard to coalesce around urgent issues.
  • Despite gloom, both Baez and Gordon voice hope in grassroots efforts and emphasize the urgency of sustained conversation and community rebuilding.

• Notable Moment

  • Joan Baez (13:56):
    “You guys had everything back then...you had the glue. And we don’t have the glue.”

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3. Justice and the Epstein Cover-Up

Timestamps: 22:57 – 36:45

• Wallace turns to “the outrage...surrounding what is widely believed to be a cover up around the Jeffrey Epstein investigation.”
• Congresswoman Melanie Stansberry (23:59): “At least 40 minors who gave sworn statements...Mr. Acosta just told us...he did not see sufficient evidence...when asked if he had directly reviewed the evidence itself...he said he had not...Something doesn’t smell right here.”

Interview: Survivor Danielle Bensky

• Bensky recounts her exploitation by Epstein, the manipulation involving her mother’s illness, and the long-term impact.
  • She describes frustration and exhaustion: “I think we do take a little bit of power back. But...this week...I and other survivors have just hit a wall of sheer exhaustion...How are we still having the same conversations?” (25:41)
  • On Acosta’s lack of remorse: “Appalling is starting to be an understatement. Truly.” (28:19)
• Bensky highlights moments of fleeting hope during Congressional testimony, but disillusionment as votes for transparency fall short (30:52).
• Legal analyst Christy Greenberg underscores prosecutorial failures:
  • “The victims didn’t have a credibility problem. They were not lying...the prosecutor...drafted a 53-page, 60-count indictment...Acosta admitted he didn’t even read the victim’s statements.” (33:40)
  • “The people...who have the credibility problem are people like Alex Acosta, who...resolved this investigation before significant investigative steps had been completed, before more victims were interviewed.”

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4. The Assault on Science: Trump, Kennedy, and Tylenol-Autism Disinformation

Timestamps: 38:23 – 43:15

• Trump Spreads Disinformation:

  • Wallace reports Trump publicly linked Tylenol use during pregnancy to autism, despite overwhelming medical evidence to the contrary.
  • The announcement represents, for Wallace and her guests, a continuation of “replacing science and medicine and rigor with conspiracy theories and extreme ideology.”

• Dr. Erwin Redlener’s Response:

  • Redlener (39:46): “Don’t listen to Dr. Trump and Dr. Kennedy, because they aren’t that...the extreme position about Tylenol in pregnancy is completely unwarranted.”
  • He explains there is no causal link between Tylenol and autism: “It’s an association, not a cause, which...” (40:35).
  • He warns of the cruelty and irresponsibility of sowing fear in mothers and parents: “It is grossly, grossly irresponsible.” (41:25)
  • On Trump and Kennedy’s “war on science”: “Now we're seeing the fruits of that unleashing of a guy who was a conspiracist and not a doctor and really undermine people's faith...There's a reason why the AMA and the American Academy of Pediatrics...think this is hair-raisingly inappropriate.” (42:22)

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5. Crony Capitalism: Trump Administration’s TikTok Deal

Timestamps: 43:18 – 45:01

• Wallace describes a White House-brokered deal to bring TikTok under U.S. ownership involving “Donald Trump’s billionaire buddies” (Lachlan Murdoch, Larry Ellison, Michael Dell).
  • Noted are the potential implications for media pluralism and influence over social media algorithms, raising concerns about consolidation of power among Trump loyalists.

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6. Ending on Activism, Language, and “Unprecedented” Times

Timestamps: 45:01 – End

• Wallace highlights Joan Baez’s rejection of the term “unprecedented” to describe ongoing shocks from the Trump administration:
  • Baez (45:01): “That group of people would love to be unprecedented...Get used to it and drop the word. We shouldn’t be surprised by it anymore.”
• The episode closes on the enduring need for activism, community, vigilance, and honest language.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Sue Gordon (Rule of Law, 05:38):
  “The strength of America is the rule of law...to see us with the attributes now that we would ascribe to totalitarian regimes is absolutely breathtaking...”

• Joan Baez (On Social Cohesion, 13:56):
  “You guys had everything back then...You had the glue. And we don’t have the glue.”

• Danielle Bensky (Epstein, 25:41):
  “You tell your story, you stand up for yourself...and then you have to keep telling it...How are we still having the same conversations?”

• Christy Greenberg (Justice Failure, 33:40):
  “The victims didn’t have a credibility problem. They were not lying...the people...who have the credibility problem are people like Alex Acosta...”

• Dr. Erwin Redlener (Science, 39:46):
  “Don’t listen to Dr. Trump and Dr. Kennedy, because they aren’t that...today’s performance...was beyond shocking.”

• Joan Baez (On Language, 45:01):
  “That group of people would love to be unprecedented...Get used to it and drop the word. We shouldn’t be surprised by it anymore.”

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Important Timestamps

• 01:22 – 12:23: Rule of law, free speech, government intimidation
• 12:23 – 17:36: Comparing now to the 1960s, loss of “glue,” Baez’s wisdom
• 22:57 – 36:45: Epstein case, survivor’s voice, failure of justice
• 38:23 – 43:15: Trump, RFK Jr., and Tylenol-autism disinformation
• 43:18 – 45:01: Trump-connected TikTok deal, concerns about influence and cronyism
• 45:01 – end: Shifts in language, enduring activist wisdom

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Tone and Language

The episode maintains a tone of urgent, critical reflection paired with moments of hope and calls for civic action. Wallace and her guests speak candidly, with both personal vulnerability (especially from survivors and activists) and analytic rigor. The stakes—a damaged democracy, justice for survivors, the integrity of public health—are laid bare without euphemism.

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Summary Takeaways

• The episode argues that U.S. democracy is at risk from escalating attacks on free speech, the rule of law, and civil society, echoing warning signs from authoritarian playbooks globally.
• Survivors’ voices highlight injustice and the limits of political accountability in the quest for transparency and reform.
• The spread of scientific disinformation from the highest offices is identified as both dangerous and cruel, further eroding public trust.
• The consolidation of media and tech under political loyalists raises alarms about the future of American pluralism.
• In closing, listeners are urged to stay vigilant, engaged, and honest—even regarding the language used to describe “unprecedented” dilemmas.

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For listeners who missed the episode, this summary traces political, legal, personal, and institutional crises discussed on-air, offering a nuanced roadmap to America’s crossroads and the voices fighting for its future.

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Sue Gordon]

Frankly, when you see stuff like this.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, look, we can do this.

[Sue Gordon]

The easy way or the hard way. These companies can find ways to change.

[Nicole Wallace]

Conduct to take action, frankly, on Kimmel.

[Sue Gordon]

Or, you know, there's going to be additional work for the FCC ahead.

[Nicole Wallace]

Hi again everyone. It's five o' clock in New York. It was the chilling threat heard around the nation's airwaves and around the world from the planet's oldest democracy, FCC Chairman Brendan Carr's not so veiled warning and threat to pull Jimmy Kimmel off the air. We all know what happens next. Within hours of Carr's public comments, Disney announced it was suspending Jimmy Kimmel indefinitely. But the news that broke just an hour ago Jimmy Kimmel will be back on the air tomorrow, according to a Disney statement, following a massive public outcry from people and consumers as well as a host of celebrities and other comedians. However, the damage was done. Carr's threat and what ensued in the following days should make all of us wonder. What do the citizens and leaders of other countries around the world think of us right now when they see Donald Trump and his officials threatening private companies and comedians, and then they watch those companies obey often in advance? What does the world think when it sees prosecutions launch from Donald Trump's social media account? To quote Pam what do our friends and adversaries alike make of the US government's most senior immigration official taking $50,000 from undercover FBI agents and then learning that the investigation into that bribe was shut down when his political party prevailed in last November's election? Opinion columnist for the New York Times, M. Gessen, who fled Russia 12 years ago to protect their family, writes a chilling new piece about how familiar what is happening here feels to them. That it feels like we are losing a country. Quote, when your country strips you of rights and protections, it tells you that it no longer recognizes you. Other times, you realize that you no longer recognize your country. People leave. Families rupture along political lines. Friendships shatter. People in institutions that used to be widely admired are vilified. And yesterday's villains are sainted. Familiar faces disappear from the public sphere. An aggressive conformity takes hold. The material conditions of life change. It unites the many actions that the Trump administration, from the sledgehammer it has taken to government programs to the demonstrative cruelty it has built into immigration. Ra is that they transform the daily physical, economic and psychic experience of life. President Trump is remaking the country in his image. Crude, harsh, gratuitously mean. The ongoing attack on civil society, which his administration plans to intensify in the name of Charlie Kirk is a part of this program. Civil society makes life more livable. The administration's message is that the work of civil society no longer belongs in this country. End quote. That is where we start the hour with former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence Sue Gordon. Hi, my friend.

[Sue Gordon]

Good evening, Nicole. Wow, just listening to you, it's so hard. This is a hard time.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do you think? I know you read all the headlines because we email and talk about them all the time, but what do you, what do you think of just the last week of developments in this country we love.

[Sue Gordon]

So beyond exhaustion? And I think there's some purposefulness in that, that we're just chasing some new idea of what someone thinks we should do, I guess, as I always do. Nicole, I'm going to bounce up. The strength of America is the rule of law. It is really, particularly as someone who has spent a career in intelligence looking at those nations who do not have that same foundation that our Constitution provides. That is a framework for shared values to ensure that we don't escalate government privilege, to prescribe the freedoms that we have. What the rule of law has given the United States over its almost 250 years is almost incalculable in terms of its strength. It's what allows us to have this vibrant innovation system that has kept us as the leaders of the free world. It's what makes everyone here believe that there is a system that if they participate, they too will be protected. And quite frankly, it is what has given us friends over the years. And you and I talk about this often. The importance of rule of law, who we've been to. Our ability to have alliances and partnerships that have kept the world order as it's been is incalculable. And to see us with the attributes now that we would ascribe to totalitarian regimes is absolutely breathtaking. And we need to address it as a nation and we need to call it out. This is, you know, there are, there are so many books in this, how to lose a country. There's a really wonderful book by SA Temulkuran who's talking about Turkey, and she has seven ways that they lost their country. And three of them disrupt rational debate, capture the state and media and replace law with loyalty are just three of them. And you don't even have to squint at it to see that we are on that path.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I mean, it feels like those are three things that Donald Trump could check off his honey do list last week. I mean, how do you, how do you. So if you were writing an assessment for another country's foreign leader, ally or adversary, just an honest assessment on the state of the rule of law in America and you had to rely on open source reporting and you read the stories about Tom Homan and his bag of cash investigation being dropped, you saw Donald Trump's post. Pam, you're not moving quickly enough to indict Tish James and Jim Comey were running out of time. Hurry up, Pam. And then you saw the reporting about a lifelong Republican prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia, which I think takes most of the national security cases that this country brings, basically forced to resign because he refuses to indict Tish James and Jim Comey. Absent facts, what would you write in your assessment of America?

[Sue Gordon]

Well, exactly what I've said and I think we see that they see it right now, the strength of America, the power, the fact that we have so much wealth, so much strength, are so intertwined, means that they still have to deal with us. But you're seeing the world shift. It's probably too strong a statement. I don't know. It may not be that the world order as we know it has changed. And two factions, Russia and China, have re established their position. And we're waiting for the United States to decide whether we are going to be that beacon that free and open societies can rally around, whether it's for our money or just our standing. I think it's still an open question. And so while you see people dealing with us just because of our economic strength and our strategic positioning, I think you're seeing an erosion of the trust that has allowed us to do so many good things. Not just the things that are in the global interest, but those things that are in U.S. interest. I think you're seeing it. If I were going to choose that horrible litany of things you mentioned that have just happened in the past week and rank them in terms of from the United States kind of desperateness, and all of them are impossible to imagine at their natural end, I'd probably take freedom of speech and make that as the most central to everything that we are for a couple reasons. Number one, it is just foundational who we are. The idea of dissent and difference is endemic to who we are. You don't have to get very far in the Constitution to see that this is what the Founders thought were most important to us. The idea that you would quash that at a time when the world is so disrupted, when the clarity of where we must go is more uncertain than it's ever been, to choose one idea and allow that to be the only one that persists is incredibly damaging. And if you couple that with the assault on truth and expertise, I don't know how we maintain either the strength of our nation, the vibrance of our people, or our position in the world if that erodes. So if I were to choose one, this freedom of speech thing and is the most inviolate. But it is way more than putting Jimmy Kimmel back on air. Because the tacit view of a government, our government, having an opinion about what is right and popular and what is not, is so damaging because of the power government already has. It's the big guy versus the little guy. It's the reason that the Constitution was written as it was to not allow the government to have these privileges so that one man, America, it will damage us faster than any other. And then probably I'd go down the order of prosecution of your enemies because that sends the message that you're either on our side or you're not. And how does that work for our people? The idea of. And again, it's not just in the action that is committed. It is the message it sends to anybody else that wants to do their job or just pursue their life as they want to, they're going to be afraid. And fear of government. Listen, our government needs to be better. But fear of government is something that we would ascribe to the people I assessed over the course of my career. Then corruption is just a natural extension of the erosion of those two.

[Nicole Wallace]

I had the chance to interview Joan Baez.

[Sue Gordon]

Are you lucky?

[Nicole Wallace]

And I asked her. Well, I was interviewing her while this was happening, but we talked about targeting comedians, not just here, but around the world. And we talked about this moment compared to other moments in history. And I want to show you what she said and see if you agree. Do you see this moment as worse than the 60s?

[Joan Baez]

This is worse. I certainly see it as worse. Wish it weren't.

[Nicole Wallace]

If this is worse, I mean, I. I went back and watched. I watched your performances at the March on Washington in 1963.

[Sue Gordon]

We shall overcome someday.

[Danielle Bensky]

We shall.

[Sue Gordon]

We shall overcome.

[Nicole Wallace]

Your voice, I mean, I have always associated with everything I've ever seen from that day. But everyone was singing with you, and it doesn't feel like we're all singing together right now.

[Joan Baez]

I remember a kid was about 16 years old, some number of years after the war was over and that. And he said, you know, you guys had everything back then. You had the music, you had the war, you know this thing. You had Woodstock, you had each other. He said you had the glue. And we don't have the glue.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why do you think we don't have the glue? Why do you think people are acquiescing to such a dramatic shift in our nation's character?

[Sue Gordon]

You asked me whether you thought I agreed with her. I do. And that this is worse. And while I want to be hopeful, and I always believe that we can take a step in whatever direction we choose, I take some comfort that we have overcome that moment. This one's different. So here's why I think it is. Number one is I think we still have not figured out what to do with this digital environment where everyone could have whatever they want in whatever way they want it instantaneously, at essentially no cost. I think two things happen. Three things maybe happen because of that. Number one is we've lost a sense of community and shared purpose. It's almost like somewhere along the way we decided that we didn't have to subordinate anything personal for something collective. And then. So that's one. I just think we've lost the sense of community. And even at that time, there were things that enough people believed and could rally around and thought were important, that a voice could be raised as the counter to a direction we were going. And look what happened because of that. I think that's hard now. The other thing I think is super hard about the digital environment is that people on two sides of an issue are receiving entirely different information. And so that ability that we used to have to discuss why we believe different things has just now Evolved into, you're either on my side or you're against it. And then I think the last is. And it's a little bit how I started with. It just seems like we're being bombarded with issues. If everything is important, how do you ever coalesce around the things that must be addressed? And so I worry that we have a generation of our brightest young minds who can't figure out how they can make a difference. And those of us who have been around a long time know that we can. But we don't know how to command this moment in the way that this moment requires. So I think this is fraught. I always believe in the American people. You and I have talked a lot about the importance of rebuilding what we have at the community level. I think there is a lot of movement in that direction. I live here in Texas now. And you've talked to a young state senator that's now running for Senate. James. And I think there are voices that are coming into this moment. But the first thing is I think we need two things. One, the conversation you and I just had that this matters, like the devolution of this moment over the next three years is going to leave us in a place that makes us almost unrecognizable, and then any future we have for this country is going to be much harder to achieve. And then the second is see that moment and then identify the voices and use your community and the people you trust to start having an opinion about what we must be, not feeling defeated by what seems to be what we have.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you think this moment might be an awakening? Like something so easy to understand, something that breaks through on the right? They have been, you know, in their own information bubbles, which I agree, are totally disconnected from one another. But they've been talking about the First Amendment and free speech for years intensely. And in the center or whomever, wherever you sit, you see that a comedian was remitted, removed after, you know, a person that works on TV was removed after a government person went on TV and threatened them. Do you think this moment could be catalytic?

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah, I think it might be. And I think there's some signs for that. Now, I will say in a conversation I had with Miles Taylor probably seven years ago, I did make the statement that there's no rule that democracies get to be 300. It has to take a choice. But I think there are some signs that this chaotic approach of disrupting everything is becoming untenable for more. In other words, that bubble of being able to get everything without worrying about the collective. And I think here are some signs. Number one, the pushback on Jimmy Kimmel. Two, you may like or not like the way Gavin Newsom pushed it back against the midterm election redistricting, but it had an effect to make people wake up to that moment. I think the pushback of the localities on federal troops going into those areas. So I think you're starting to see it. But I just, I think we need to keep talking about it. I think it's why you're important. And this, this isn't something that is un American. It is fundamentally American to be participative in the direction our nation goes. This one is particularly fraught because it snuck up on us so quickly. But I do think there are signs that are saying, wait, this is not what I want. This is not in the direction of goodness. But, boy, I think there are some other things in the offing that we're going to have to really attend to in terms of this assault on expertise and science and how our institutions apply the rule of law.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sue, it's always a privilege. You are my glue, I should say, and one of the people I reach out to and try to attach myself to when things feel really hard in this moment for our country and for institutions in which we both serve. So thank you. Thank you for spending time with me and with us today. When we come back, something else the world sees when it looks at our country is a president who is struggling to put a stop to a story that really emanates from his own coalition, from his own base of support. And the outrage which now extends beyond any and all political divides in America surrounding what is widely believed to be a cover up around the Jeffrey Epstein investigation. Donald Trump's former labor secretary testified before Congress Friday, and Democrats say he showed no remorse over the sweetheart deal he cut that allowed Jeffrey Epstein to escape prosecution. A survivor of Jeffrey Epstein's horrors will be our next guest. Also ahead, how Donald Trump and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Have replaced science and medicine and rigor with conspiracy theories and extreme ideology by Trump and Kennedy's latest announcement is a flashing red warning sign for doctors and medical experts everywhere. Deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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In the latest of a series of efforts by lawmakers to get to the bottom of the government's handling of the case against convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, the House Oversight Committee held an interview with the man responsible for a controversial two sweetheart plea deal given to Epstein, former U.S. attorney and Donald Trump's first labor secretary, Alex Acosta. That deal that Acosta negotiated led Epstein to serve just one just over one year of prison time on state charges involving only one underage victim. It had generous work release privileges, and victims of Epstein's abuse were left in the dark about all of the details of the deal and its very existence. Now, despite all the controversy over that deal, Democrats on the committee said Alex Acosta stood by it when questioned on Friday. Here is what one committee member, Congresswoman Melanie Stansberry, described in that meeting in the room with Alex Acosta, there were.

[Congresswoman Melanie Stansberry]

At least 40 minors who gave sworn statements to the FBI as part of the investigation before a decision was made in this case that they had been raped, abused and trafficked. And what Mr. Acosta just told us is that based on his assessment of the case with his team, that he did not see sufficient evidence to move forward with prosecuting the case, that there were weaknesses in the case. When asked if he made the decision as to whether or not to prosecute fully prosecute this case, he took responsibility for it. But when asked if he had directly reviewed the evidence itself in this case, he said that he had not actually read the statements of the victims. So let me just say this, something doesn't Smell right here.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's unbelievable. With me at the table, Danielle Bensky. She was an aspiring ballerina when she first met Jeffrey Epstein two decades ago as a teenager. She's now one of the survivors who is speaking out, speaking out about what happened to her and against the Justice Department's decision not to release any additional documents to the public. Also joining us, former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC, legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show, Courtside. Our friend Christy Greenberg's back. Danny. You go by Danny. Thank you so much for being here.

[Danielle Bensky]

Thank you for having me. Truly, thank you for the platform to be able to speak.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is it insane that this is part of the process and is it part of the process for you?

[Danielle Bensky]

Yeah. I mean, every time we tell our stories, I think we do take a little bit of power back. So that feels really good. But I will tell you that this week, I personally and I know that other survivors have just hit a wall of sheer exhaustion because it just feels, you know, in the beginning, you're empowered. You tell your story and you stand up for yourself. And you're like, I'm doing what's right, and I'm standing up for women. I'm standing up for those that don't have a voice. And then you have to keep telling it. And I look at people like Annie and Maria who have told their. Annie Farmer, Maria Farmer, who have told their stories for so long, and I just. The sheer exhaustion and the sheer disappointment factor and just. You hit this place of, how are we still having the same conversations?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, Well, I don't want to do anything to add trauma, so this is your time. And I wonder, do you mind sharing with us what happened to you?

[Danielle Bensky]

Of course. Yeah. Yeah. So I met Jeffrey. I was 17. It was 2004 into 2005. I knew him for a year. I turned 18. I was an aspiring ballet dancer. And, yeah, I was recruited and recruited to go to the mansion. It started off with just massages, clothed. And it slowly escalated. My mom was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and that scared me quite a bit. And I didn't know who to turn to or where to go. I thought that a lot of his money was made in the medical profession. So I went with brain scans to him and just asked if he could help. And basically he said, you know, he gave me an ultimatum. He said, well, I know all of the most powerful people in the medical profession, or I can, you know, make sure she doesn't get the best care. I can make sure that she doesn't have the anesthesiologist on call at Mount Sinai and really held me there and basically said, what are you going to do for this? You know, are you going to recruit more girls? Which I did not. Or are you going to just accept this level of abuse? And so that was my downward spiral. And I just lived in that until I knew my mom was going to be okay. And she healed, and I was able to extricate myself. But it was a really hard year.

[Nicole Wallace]

When you think about how monstrous he is, what do you think about someone who has no remorse about doing a deal like that for him?

[Danielle Bensky]

Yeah, I mean, it's appalling, you know, it really is. I feel like appalling is starting to be an understatement. Truly. It's really. You know, I think for any of us that have kids and we think about our kids in a situation like that, my heart sinks in such a profound way. And it is. He was a monster. He was a manipulative monster, and he would always try to find different ways in. And what I look at now, you know, I was so young. I was only 17. The frontal lobe of the brain hadn't been fully developed. But now I know that he kept saying to me, I know ballet masters. I dated Gelsey Kirkland. And when I dated Gelsey Kirkland, she would tell me all these stories. She wouldn't mind getting naked. She wouldn't mind. And he would use all of these stories to just sell me on abuse. And then it was my mom's scans that he finally found the way in for me.

[Nicole Wallace]

How's your mom?

[Danielle Bensky]

She's good. Yeah, she's good. Thank you for asking.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is she so proud of you?

[Danielle Bensky]

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. She's loving this. I'm sure she's watching.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is she where you derive your strength, or is it your. You mentioned you have kids now, or. How do you do this? How do you even come on TV and talk about something so dark? How do you endure that?

[Danielle Bensky]

Becoming a parent is part of it. I'm also a dance educator. I've been a choreographer for a long time. I have a bunch of students in Hawaii and, well, all over the world. But I work with a company in Hawaii called Ohana Arts, and I have students there all ages. And we actually just went to Japan, and they are some of the strongest kids I've ever met in my life. They're like mini professionals. And I often just ask, you know, what would I have them do if somebody came to me with this horrible story? How would I make them or how would I empower them to advocate for themselves? And then I kind of said, you know, I have to do that, too. I have to demonstrate that. So they're a huge inspiration to me. And just honestly changing it for the future. I want to make it better than I found it.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, I want to ask you. I have to sneak in a quick break. I want to ask you to stick around, and I want to just ask you what you think change looks like at this point, what you think justice would look like for you and for the other survivors. Will you stay?

[Danielle Bensky]

Yeah, for sure.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay. And we'll bring Christie in on the other side. Don't go anywhere.

[Danielle Bensky]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Danny and Christy. I mean, Danny, you talk about being in the room with Republicans who then leave and don't support disclosure. Can you just talk about the two sides of the Republicans you've seen?

[Danielle Bensky]

Yes. It's incredibly hard. So I was at the House Oversight Committee, and it was such a beautiful moment of everybody coming together. I mean, Joe Comer came in and said to all of us, you know, we're all on the same side of transparency here. We are all fighting for the same thing. We believe you. We had quite a few Republicans come and shake our hand as the end. And it really. I left that room feeling so hopeful, and then to still not have the vote from that side of the room is really disheartening on a lot of levels. And I don't. I just don't understand why. They sat there and they heard our stories in chronological order all the way from. Annie was representing Maria Farmer in 1996, and they heard all the way through the end of 2008, which was Acosta's plea deal. And we did hear from a victim who was abused and raped while Jeffrey had on an ankle monitor and there was a police officer at the door. And she's not the only one who had that story told. She's not the only one that that story applies to, rather so sitting there. The House Oversight Committee heard all of this. So to me, when they leave the room and we see the votes and we're still two votes away, one vote away, and we're, you know, Democrats are coming in and boosting the vote and all that. I just don't understand where the disconnect is happening. I know Marjorie Taylor Greene did say, show us the names, give us the names, which is a very complicated thing, because I feel like survivors are doing this the right way or we're doing it the way we think. We're supposed to do it, which is going through litigation. I have a piece of litigation out there with Sigrid McCauley, my lawyer for Darren and Dyke and Richard Kahn, and it's gone pretty much nowhere. And they haven't questioned them, they haven't brought them in.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's the accountant.

[Danielle Bensky]

Yeah, the accountant and the lawyer for Jeffrey Epstein. For Jeffrey Epstein's estate, yes. And so it's really disheartening, I think, for victims to see that we are trying to put the names out there in our own way, the way that we are supposed to move through this court system. And, and people are not following up. The people like Director Patel. Why aren't they questioning them Instead of the 12 hours with Ghislaine Maxwell? I don't understand. So that's, for me, that's the disconnect.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, Christy, there is no explanation, right? I mean, why. What is your sense of why that would be the case? Why Kash Patel, or Todd Blanche has shown that he has room in his schedule to spend. Ms. Daniel, he said 12 hours with Ghislaine Maxwell. Why wouldn't he spend time with the accountant and lawyer for the Epstein estate?

[Christy Greenberg]

These are great questions. One thing that Cash Patel has continued to say is that they are focused on only releasing credible evidence and that they're limited by what they have. One, they're not limited by what they have. He can continue to investigate. He runs the FBI. And in terms of this issue of credibility, Costa said the same thing, raising issues about witness credibility. Let's just be very clear here. The victims didn't have a credibility problem. They were not lying. How do I know that? Because the Lyon prosecutor in the Florida case, the one who actually interviewed the victims, she believes them. She drafted a 53 page 60 count indictment charging Epstein with federal sex trafficking. And Acosta admitted he didn't even read the victim's statements. It seemed clear as well from Patel's testimony that he wasn't necessarily familiar with all the evidence in the file. So the fact that you had so many victims basically telling the same stories about this monster abusing them, you know, these stories that will shake you to your core, like Danielle's, you know, these are all the victims corroborating one another. And these are underage girls from all around the country in Florida, New York and New Mexico. So it's not like this was a bunch of people who came together, you know, criminal masterminds colluding to take down some powerful, well connected billionaire. These are young girls who had really gripping Stories of sexual abuse. So I don't know why our FBI director or our deputy attorney general wouldn't give those victims the time to speak with them, to understand what their claims are, to understand, you know, where they would like to see the case going. Why. Why not give them that voice? I mean, the people, to me, it seems like, who have the credibility problem are people like Alex Acosta, who got directly involved in plea negotiations, who resolved this investigation before significant investigative steps had been completed, before more victims were interviewed. You know, he conferred broad immunity on not just Epstein, but on any potential co conspirator, effectively shutting the whole thing down. I mean, and then he tried to keep the whole thing secret and say that this shouldn't be a part of the public record. I mean, that is galling and outrageous. I think it should. It's something that should really bother anybody, not just who was a former prosecutor, but us as human beings, us as parents. I mean, it is. It is just so fundamentally unfair. And it's. I mean, the victims, people like Danielle, who are so courageous to speak out, they deserve more.

[Nicole Wallace]

Danny, I can't thank you enough for being here. I still. You'll have to. You'll have to keep coming back as often as you want to. Consider this table and this platform yours to any degree that it is helpful.

[Danielle Bensky]

Thank you so much.

[Nicole Wallace]

I know all of my viewers believe you. 81% of the country believes the victims and believes that Donald Trump is involved in hiding something. So I thank you so much.

[Danielle Bensky]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you for being here and doing it with us. Christy, thank you as always for helping us with these conversations. When we come back, Doctors are sounding the alarm today over something Donald Trump just did, saying he's once again ignoring science and replacing it with something else. We'll explain after a quick break.

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[Nicole Wallace]

I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody. If you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.

Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up [e-mail].

I know I've said it a lot lately, but since we've been on the air, there's been news. Donald Trump is now publicly attempting to link autism to pregnant women who take Tylenol while they're pregnant. Trump made the announcement last hour to the alarm of the millions of people, including health experts, and despite overwhelming science and agreement among the medical community that this is not the case. Major medical groups, the company that makes Tylenol and the bulk of scientific research over the last decade strongly suggests there is zero link between autism and Tylenol. It's fueling more concern that US health agencies under Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr are rushing guidance out not with science, but instead with extremist politics and conspiracy theories. Today's announcement is also all the more alarming and perplexing considering today's reporting in Politico that says that the agency Kennedy tasked with autism research said that they will begin their work this month. Joining me at the table is public health analyst Dr. Erwin Redliner. He is co founder of the Children's Health Fund and founding director of the national center for Disaster Preparedness at Columbia University. Dr. Redliner, thank you for being here. You're alarmed. I know you're alarmed. Face.

[Dr. Erwin Redliner]

Oh, alarmed would be a good word.

[Nicole Wallace]

Give me the facts first about Tylenol. If you're pregnant and watching, I will.

[Dr. Erwin Redliner]

But I just want to make a very quick statement to parents out there. Don't listen to Dr. Trump and Dr. Kennedy, because they aren't that. And today's performance by the president of the United States talking about stuff that he has zero understanding of was beyond shocking. But anyway, here's the situation. The extreme position about Tylenol in pregnancy is completely unwarranted. You know, there's very little legitimate studies that make that connection between Tylenol and autism. There just isn't. There is an association, meaning that sometimes you see people who take autism, I take Tylenol and have children who eventually had autism. It's an association, not a cause, which.

[Nicole Wallace]

Means the variable isn't the Tylenol.

[Dr. Erwin Redliner]

It's we don't know what the variable is. It could be food products. It could be microplastics. It could be other things in the environment that we just don't know about. And to come out with an announcement like that as strongly as the President did, even if he had some business talking about health issues, was really over the top and dangerous. And mothers and parents cannot pay attention to that kind of nonsense coming from this White House. And unfortunately, Health and Human Services, I.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mean, parents, especially pregnant women, who think now that they're to blame because they took Tylenol while they're pregnant. And preying on any parent, mother or father whose child has autism seems like the definition of cruelty. What should.

[Dr. Erwin Redliner]

It's ignorant, cruel, which is really a terrible combination to come from, you know, the chief executive of the country and the chief health officer. It is so irresponsible. And for parents, the reason that people take Tylenol when they're pregnant is they have a high fever, they're sick, and we don't know whether it's the fever, could be the fever, or whatever virus they have that may or may not be associated with the eventual development of autism in their kids. We don't even, we just don't know the answer to that. And to make parents feel like, oh my God, I took this medication because I had a high fever and as a result I caused autism in my child, it is grossly, grossly irresponsible.

[Nicole Wallace]

What are the natural extensions of today's announcement? Obviously, they're digging into their war on science. What do you see down the road from this?

[Dr. Erwin Redliner]

Well, I don't see it getting better anytime soon, I'll tell you that. In other words, once the President has given the green light to Bobby Kennedy and his crew of, you know, fellow conspirators and people out to undermine American science. Well, he's going, he's going wild. Remember he said when he first nominated the guy, I'm going to let him do whatever he needs to do. He can go wild, he can make all the pronouncements he wants. And now we're seeing the fruits of that unleashing of a guy who was a conspiracist and not a doctor and really undermine people's faith and confidence in the vaccines that have saved hundreds of millions of lives around the world. And look, there's a reason why the AMA and the American Academy of Pediatrics and other organizations think this is hair raisingly inappropriate.

[Nicole Wallace]

Dr. Vlad, thank you for sounding the alarm and for being here with us.

[Dr. Erwin Redliner]

Sure.

[Nicole Wallace]

We'll continue to call on you. When we come back, a high profile deal from the White House that stands to benefit some of Donald Trump's closest friends and allies. We'll tell you about it next in what may be the least surprising story we've covered all day. The deal that the White House says it has negotiated to bring TikTok under American ownership includes some of Donald Trump's billionaire buddies. He told reporters over the weekend that media mogul Lachlan Murdoch and business leaders Larry Ellison and Michael Dell will be involved as U.S. investors. Dell appeared at a White House event earlier this summer, and Ellison has long had ties to Donald Trump and his circle. He and his son are major stakeholders in the newly forged Paramount, Paramount Skydance. So they control cbs. The Wall Street Journal is also reporting that Ellison is planning to make a bid for Warner Bros. Discovery, which includes cnn. What could go wrong now? If the deal goes through, those high level Trump supporters may have a hand in shaping the future algorithm used on the social media platforms. With more than 82 million daily active users in the U.S. one more break for us. We'll be right back. Unprecedented. It's a word that's often used, including I use it all the time way too much. We use it to describe the chaos and the norm busting and the cruelty of the Trump administration, but no more folk Legendary folk singer and activist Joan Baez says we all need to cut it out. Listen, I am never going to call anything unprecedented again. You stopped me in my tracks when I read that and I want to go back and take that word out of everything I've ever said about this administration.

[Joan Baez]

That group of people would love to be unprecedented. I mean at every conference. Next wave of horrors is unprecedented. So get used to it and drop the word. We shouldn't be surprised by it anymore.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joan Baez has spent her life on the front lines of activism and art. She is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. We have never needed her voice and her wisdom more than we do right now. Scan the QR code on your screen to listen to our conversation and let me know what you think. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

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Your new beginning starts now. Dr. Horton has new construction homes available in Ellensburg and throughout the greater Seattle area. With spacious floor plans, flexible living spaces and home technology packages, you can enjoy more cozy moments and sweet memories in your beautiful new home. With new home communities opening in Ellensburg and throughout the Seattle area, Dr. Horton has the ideal home for you. Learn [e-mail] Dr. Horton, America's builder and equal Housing Opportunity Builder.