“The independence? of the Federal Reserve”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "The independence? of the Federal Reserve"

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC NOW)
Date: January 12, 2026
Episode Focus:
This episode dives into the political and institutional crisis sparked by the Trump administration's Justice Department opening a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. Host Nicolle Wallace and a panel of political and legal experts break down the implications for the Federal Reserve's independence, the health of American democracy, and the mounting use of federal power for political retribution. The episode also covers the escalating federal crackdown in Minnesota and its impact on civil liberties, with live coverage from a Minneapolis press conference.

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Main Theme

Examining the Politicization of U.S. Democratic Institutions
This episode spotlights an alarming episode in the Trump administration’s second term: a politically motivated criminal investigation targeting Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell. It critically examines attempts to undermine the institutional independence of the Fed, raising warnings about America moving toward authoritarian norms, and cross-examines the dangerous consequences for the rule of law, the economy, and democracy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Powell Investigation: A Threat to Fed Independence

• Breaking News: Trump’s Justice Department launches a criminal probe into Fed Chair Jerome Powell over alleged misstatements to Congress regarding Fed headquarters renovations.
  (Host, 01:05)
  • Described as “a politically motivated probe” following months of Trump pressuring Powell to reduce interest rates.
  • Described by former Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen as “a path toward a banana republic.”
    (“…puts the United States of America on a path toward a banana republic.” – Host, 01:38)
• Powell’s Response:
  Powell posts a bold video statement decrying the investigation as pretextual retaliation tied to his refusal to follow Trump’s economic preferences.
  • Quote (Jerome Powell, 02:14):
    “This unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the Administration's threats and ongoing pressure… The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public rather than following the preferences of the President… I have carried out my duties without political fear or favor.”
• Bipartisan Alarm:
  All living former Fed Chairs, Treasury Secretaries, and top economic advisors (both Republican and Democrat) sign a statement warning:

  “This is how monetary policy is made in emerging markets with weak institutions with highly negative consequences… It has no place in the United States, whose greatest strength is the rule of law…”
  (Host, 03:39)

2. Congressional & Party Reactions

• Republican Reactions:
  Senator Thom Tillis says,

  “If there were any remaining doubt whether advisers within the Trump administration are actively pushing to end the independence of the Federal Reserve, there should now be none… I will oppose the confirmation of any nominee… until this legal matter is fully resolved.” (Host, 04:39)
  The panel notes the symbolic but limited effect of “lone defiers” in the current GOP.

• Democratic Perspective:
  Congressman Dan Goldman expresses bafflement and concern over Republican normalization of weaponizing the justice system, noting silence and acquiescence as dangerous for democratic norms and the US economy.
  • Quote (Dan Goldman, 06:06):
    "The notion of using the criminal justice system as a political cudgel is now being normalized by these Republicans. But the impact and the damage is now escalating tremendously… They know what’s going on. And just to continually bend the knee to someone who is escalating and increasing his extremism … it’s just baffling to me.”

3. Rule of Law and Institutional Erosion

• Systemic Undermining:
  Panelists discuss sweeping politicization of the Justice Department and intimidation of civil servants defending professional standards, including firings for refusing to pursue “Trumped up” cases.
  (Dan Goldman & Host, 10:01–10:29)
• Legal System as Bulwark:
  Despite the pressure, grand juries have repeatedly rebuffed weak cases, and resignations abound among principled prosecutors – but the panel warns these are only temporary guardrails.
  • Quote (Goldman, 17:51):
    "It’s absolutely astonishing how many … grand jury rejections of indictments there are. ... But that’s not the point … intimidation because it’s not [just] Jerome Powell right now.”

4. DEEPER CONSEQUENCES: The Chilling Effect

• Intimidation Tactics:
  Trump’s approach creates a climate of fear where career officials and even elected members are wary of personal repercussions (safety, doxxing) for defying political revenge.
  • “There’s a trickle-down effect… colleagues [worried] about physical security… voting based on … personal security, which is just anathema to democracy.” (Goldman, 18:08)
• Historical Analogy:
  Panelists explicitly liken current events to authoritarian playbooks:
  • “It is Vladimir Putin’s playbook that Donald Trump is following. And he has all of these lackeys who are just doing his bidding for him.” (Goldman, 28:37)

5. The Minneapolis/ICE Crackdown (Live Press Conference)

• Federal Overreach in Minnesota:
  Attorney General Keith Ellison and Mayors Jacob Fry (Minneapolis), Melvin Carter (St. Paul) hold a press conference announcing a lawsuit against the DHS/ICE for deploying a massive number of armed agents in the Twin Cities, describing it as “a federal invasion.”
  • Agents accused of excessive force, racial profiling, and targeting Democratic “blue” cities as retribution—not law enforcement.
  • "[Trump administration] targeting people, cities, and states that don’t agree with them politically…”
    (Ellison, 41:35)
• Impact on Communities:
  • Schools closed, police resources overwhelmed, civil rights violated.
  • "You can’t indiscriminately take people off our streets, American citizens off our streets. You cannot drag pregnant women through the snow...”
    (Mayor Jacob Fry, 45:31)
• Broader Implications:
  Panel and officials connect the dots between the domestic use of federal power for political ends (both at Fed and in Minnesota) as symptoms of systematic democratic backsliding.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jerome Powell (Video statement, 02:14):
  "I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people."
• Dan Goldman (Republican complicity, 06:06):
  "Just to continually bend the knee to someone who is escalating and increasing his extremism, his anti constitutional actions, his attacks on the very foundations, we’re so far past the point where they should have done anything.”
• Mike Schmidt (Retribution, 12:39):
  “If Donald Trump can make criminality essentially up however he wants and use it however he wants, that’s a really, really big deal.”
• Christy Greenberg (Prosecution norms, 14:42):
  “By my last count, [Jeanine Pirro] had brought eight cases to a grand jury that were rejected out of hand. That is not a thing that is normal.”
• Goldman (28:37):
  “It is Vladimir Putin’s playbook that Donald Trump is following.”
• Attorney General Keith Ellison (Minnesota lawsuit, 34:07):
  "This has to stop… the obvious targeting of Minnesota for our diversity, for our democracy and our differences of opinion… is a violation of the Constitution and of federal law."
• Mayor Jacob Fry (Minneapolis, 45:31):
  “You can’t indiscriminately take people off our streets, American citizens off our streets… Minneapolis is being treated, targeted, because we stand up for our neighbors and we welcome immigrants because we believe in the law.”

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Powell Investigation Announcement: 01:05–04:30
• Powell’s Statement: 02:14–03:23
• Panel Breakdown/Fed Independence: 04:30–14:30
• Discussion on Grand Juries and Justice Department Erosion: 14:30–19:50
• Analysis & Analogies to Authoritarian Tactics: 25:39–29:20
• Press Conference (Attorney General Ellison, Mayor Fry, Mayor Carter): 34:07–52:31

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

• Urgent, Alarmed, and Analytical:
  The tone is grave, direct, and highly critical—warning that US institutions, particularly the Federal Reserve and Department of Justice, are under historic threat from politicization and authoritarian “bully tactics” unprecedented in the contemporary era.
• Call to Action:
  Emphasis on citizen activism, political accountability, and legal checks (“at some point, the American people need to make that very clear to them, which will happen in November…” – Goldman, 12:18).
• Institutional Valorization:
  Continual appeal to “rule of law,” civil service professionalism, and classic American democratic values.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode is a must-listen for anyone concerned about democratic norms, federal overreach, and the future of independent institutions in the US. It features rare candor from sitting Congressmen, legal experts, investigative reporters, and local officials, who together provide a comprehensive, sobering alarm about the stakes of politicizing justice and independent governance—at the Fed, in the courts, and on the streets of American cities.

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Transcript

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

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[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Hi there everyone. Happy Monday. It's 4 o'clock in New York. Message to all the titans of industry, the tech Bros and finance folks who fly private and think Donald Trump's unrestrained fetish with retribution and revenge doesn't impact you, won't impact you over the next three years. Unfortunately, I fear you're about to be proven very wrong as he gins up a politically motivated criminal probe into Jerome Powell that former Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen says puts the United States of America on a path toward a banana republic. Breaking over the weekend news that the Trump Justice Department has opened a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell over whether Powell lied to Congress about the scope of the renovations of the Fed's headquarters. It comes after nearly a year of Powell standing up to Donald Trump and asserting his independence and that of the Federal Reserve amid an all out pressure campaign by Donald Trump to get Powell to cut interest rates, even if doing so could be devastating for the US Economy. Powell posted a video on the website of the Board of the Governors of the Federal Reserve calling out the Trump Administration Watch.

[Jerome Powell]

This unprecedented action should be seen in the broader context of the Administration's threats and ongoing pressure. This new threat is not about my testimony last June or about the renovation of the Federal Reserve buildings. It is not about Congress's oversight role. The Fed, through testimony and other public disclosures, made every effort to keep Congress informed about the renovation project. Those are pretexts. The threat of criminal charges is a consequence of the Federal Reserve setting interest rates based on our best assessment of what will serve the public rather than following the preferences of the President this is about whether the Fed will be able to continue to set interest rates based on evidence and economic conditions, or whether instead, monetary policy will be directed by political pressure or intimidation. I have served at the Federal Reserve under four administrations, Republicans and Democrats alike. In every case, I have carried out my duties without political fear or favor. Public service sometimes requires standing firm in the face of threats. I will continue to do the job the Senate confirmed me to do with integrity and a commitment to serving the American people.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

This criminal investigation into Jerome Powell isn't just an alarming sign of Donald Trump's growing embrace of authoritarianism and authoritarian tactics. Former Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen warns on CNBC that it could also tank the American economy, sending us down the same path as countries like Argentina, Turkey, and Venezuela. Gillen saying this, quote, it seems to me that the market should be more concerned. Her warning is echoed in a statement signed by every living former Fed chair from both Republican and Democratic administrations, as well as former treasury secretaries, former heads of the Council of Economic Advisers, and National Economic Council members. They write, this quote, this is how monetary policy is made in emerging markets with weak institutions with highly negative consequences for inflation and the functioning of their economies more broadly. It has no place in the United States, whose greatest strength is the rule of law, which is the foundation of our economic success. But Donald Trump's attempt at using his favorite tool of retribution and revenge, the now very willing Justice Department, to crush the independence of the Federal Reserve, could maybe possibly be blocked by his own party. Senate Banking Committee member Republican Senator Tom Tillis, issued a statement that reads, quote, if there were any remaining doubt whether advisers within the Trump administration are actively pushing to end the independence of the Federal Reserve, there should now be none. It is now the independence and credibility of the Department of Justice that are in question. I will oppose the confirmation of any nominee for the Fed, including the upcoming Fed chair vacancy, until this legal matter is fully resolved. I guess we have one. So we start today. Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York is here at the table. He's a member of both the Judiciary and Homeland Security Committees. Legal analyst Christy Greenberg is here. She's a former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY. She's the host of the YouTube show Courtside. Also joining us, New York Times investigative reporter Mike Schmidt. Congressman, it used to be news when one Republican would defy Donald Trump. I remember when Bob Corker was the one. Then there were a few years where Mitt Romney was the one. And I guess more recently, Tillis, on a couple of issues, has been the one but I think we all know here in year 10 of the Trump story that it takes more than one. What is your reaction to the lack of reaction from Republicans to this insanity about a trumped up criminal investigation into Jerome Powell?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

I was encouraged by Lisa Murkowski's comments where she said if the Department of Justice is investigating the Fed, then Congress needs to investigate the Department of Justice, which is of course exactly right. And so there are a couple senators which can make a difference. But once again, there are crickets from House Republicans. And the notion of using the criminal justice system as a political cudgel is now being normalized by these Republicans. But the impact and the damage is now escalating tremendously. It's now not just political enemies like Letitia James or Adam Schiff or James Comey. It is actual government officials, current government officials. Lisa Cook is one, now Jerome Powell. And the impact, I think is really reflected in that statement from the former board chairs and members where they emphasize the importance of the rule of law. Now, I've spoken to you many times about the rule of law. It is a somewhat vague concept to a lot of people, but when they say that the rule of law is the foundation for the economic success of this country, what they are meaning is that the notion that our laws are followed, are independent and, and are neutrally arbitrated by judges is the basis for our economic system. It is the reason why the dollar is so strong. And if you are now gonna have monetary policy driven by political considerations, all of that faith in the dollar just goes completely down and it will tank our economy. But the broader issue, and this is what I just don't understand about House Republicans, is they see this, they're not dumb, they know what's going on. And just to continually bend the knee to someone who is escalating and increasing his extremism, his anti constitutional actions, his attacks on the very foundations, we're so far past the point where they should have done anything. But now that you're willing to just stand by while he absolutely tanks the economy, if that's ultimately, if he had his way, it's just baffling to me.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Well, the Republican House members, it's interesting that you're still interested in them. I don't think they have to bend the knee. They live on their knees. But I think the fact that they can't exist without donors, I mean, what kind of message can Democrats deliver to Jamie Dimon and other people who put money into Republican campaigns?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Yeah, there are two things, right, that could motivate them. One is losing their election, which for many of the vulnerable frontliners, looks like is going to happen if things continue this way. That still has not motivated them. The second thing is for donors and corporate America to stand up, not just to the House Republicans, but actually to Donald Trump. That happened in Trump 1.0. And it was part of the reason why things stayed more or less on the rails, especially more normal.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

You had Dina Powell, who had just come out of Goldman Sachs, you had Steve. I mean, there were people around that had credibility, right?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

But remember how he was attacking Jeff Bezos at that time? You know, because the Washington Post was actually holding him accountable. Right now, Jeff Bezos is giving him millions of dollars. All of the corporate titans recognize that it's a lot easier to give him a little bit of money and stay out of the crossroads, to stand up to it.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

I guess my question is the rule of law. You talk about it like it's something that is to be protected. Do we still live in a country with the rule of law? Do we still have a department that believes in the rule of law?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

We have many, many people in the Justice Department who believe in the rule of law. We have people at the top of the Justice Department who do not care about the rule of law.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

And those people inside the department, the many, many of them who believe in the rule of law, if their bosses find out they believe in the rule of law over political cronyism, do they keep their jobs or lose their jobs?

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Many have lost their jobs.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

So how do we have a rule of law if we have a Justice Department where the many, many people inside of it, if their bosses find out.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

They believe in it, ultimately that's how it is degraded and eliminated. I don't think we're over the Hill here, but we are on top of it. We are absolutely on top of it. We saw that the number two prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia now was removed for refusing to pursue the Comey investigation after it was dismissed. So we're right at the precipice here. And that's why my frustration continues to grow. Even though you and I have had this conversation and you have zero faith in the House Republicans. I feel like at some point, and we will push our levers and we will do what we can. And I will ask the Federal Reserve to provide to Congress everything that they are providing to the Department of Justice, which they can do even pursuant to a grand jury subpoena. They can just turn it over with congressional oversight. That's something that we should absolutely do so that we are privy to what this investigation is about. That's very easy. And there are other mechanisms that I think levers that we can pull. But it is for my colleagues in the Judiciary Committee, who are former prosecutors and lawyers who understand the importance of the rule of law, who used to enforce the rule of law, to sit there silently and watch Donald Trump just completely obliterate the rule of law, which is going to have massive impacts on impacts far beyond Democratic politicians, is shameful, and it's disgraceful. And at some point, I think the American people need to make that very clear to them, which will happen in November, but can happen, especially by donors right now.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Mike, I know you've been sort of tracking these two forces. One, Donald Trump's retribution ambitions and efforts, and what they look like, what he planned before he got here, what he tried the first time, and what he's doing the second term also tracked Jerome Powell as sort of a tripwire or a red line. They've now intersected in today's news cycle. How do you see that?

[Mike Schmidt (New York Times investigative reporter)]

I mean, I think we're at a really important point in the retribution story, because if Donald Trump can make criminality essentially up however he wants and use it however he wants, that's a really, really big deal. And as we saw towards the end of last year, he was running into real barriers around that. The Comey case fell apart, the James case fell apart. There were a ton of prosecutors that quit over it, and now he's going after Jerome Powell. And it looks like, you know, it looks, you know, for Jerome Powell to be sort of a scary thing. Like, they're serving these documents on him, they're threatening him with prosecution. But as we have seen, the system, the judicial system, at least for those people that have been indicted has. Has held in a way that at least I didn't think it through to the point I thought, okay, Donald Trump's gonna come back, he's gonna seek retribution, he's gonna put his enemies in prison. And he's still trying. Despite hitting those obstacles, he's still trying really hard. As we. As we see, there was a prosecutor that was just fired in connection with not. Not wanting to do more on the Comey case. He's unrelenting, so he might, you know, be ultimately successful. But he's at this point right now where he has run into some barriers, and, I don't know, look, could he do this? Could he cast criminality over Jerome Powell and make his life really uncomfortable? Yes. Could he indict Jerome Powell and put him in prison. I think that's probably really, really far down the road. But that's the country we live in today, where the President of the United States can say, okay, we're gonna go after Jerome Powell and we're gonna dirty him up with criminality and see what happens, and then we'll pick our next target.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

What does it do inside the actual offices? I mean, if you're now a prosecutor asked to go and start working on the Jerome Powell criminal case, what does that look like?

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

Well, the first question you ask is, is there a basis here to actually investigate? I mean, what he's doing is seeking to renovate buildings to remove asbestos lead contamination and make them compliant with the ada. It's not like he's looking to demolish the building, slap up a bunch of gold, and put Trump's name all over it. Like, I mean, he. What he's doing seems pretty measured. So where is the lie to Congress? Like, where is. Where is the crime here? That's the first question any prosecutor would ask. But in Jeanine Pirro's office, which is the office that is investigating this, apparently it doesn't seem like there are prosecutors necessarily asking those basic questions, because by my last count, I think she had brought eight cases to a grand jury that were rejected out of hand. That does not happen. That is not a thing. That is normal. That is completely inept. So something's very wrong. I mean, she is lost. It's been publicly reported. She's lost about a third of her office. So there are clearly people looking at these kind of inquiries and saying, like, we're not going to take a part in this. But, yeah, she's failing. I mean, she had a judge say, you're playing cops and robbers and you're more interested in social media, posting stats on social media of your arrests. So you are in actually getting convictions, which is her job. So I don't see this necessarily going anywhere. I don't think she'll be able to get an indictment here, but it seems like that's not the point. The point is let's intimidate Jerome Powell. Let's harass him. That is the point. And it shouldn't be. There should be a lot of shame about the fact that she is losing continually before grand juries, before judges, And. And there should be shame in that. And there isn't.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

It is. I mean, that is the parallel investigation. Right? What can you do absent shame? Right. That's the other thing we're witnessing. Let me show you what May be one of Powell's original sins. Here he is standing next to Donald Trump and correcting him.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

It looks like it's about 3.1 billion. Went up a little bit or a lot. So the 2.7 is now 3.1.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Not aware of that.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

Yeah, it just came out.

[Jerome Powell]

Yeah, I haven't heard that from anybody.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

That said.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

It just came.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Arnold said it about 3.1 as well. 3.2.

[Mayor Jacob Fry]

This came from us.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

Yes. I don't know who does that.

[Jerome Powell]

Are you including the Martin renovation, you just added. You just, you just added in the third building. What that is. That's a third building.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

It's a building that's being built.

[Jerome Powell]

No, it was built five years ago.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

Are there things the chairman can say to you today that would make you.

[Mike Schmidt (New York Times investigative reporter)]

Back off some of the earlier criticism?

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

Well, I'd love him to lower interest rates.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

I mean, it's always a shakedown. Donald Trump, who is known to get all of his information from the Fox News morning program, has got some breaking document that he's gonna reveal to Jerome Powell. Look what I just got just off hot off the press. It's ridiculous. Until as they're discussing, you're in front of a grand jury.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Yeah. And that's. Mike is right. That's where they fail and that's where the rule of law has held. And ultimately, remember, no matter, any criminal case needs a grand jury to indict. And as Christy said, it is absolutely astonishing how many no true bills, how many grand jury rejections of indictments there are. Remember, it's just the prosecutor going in, summarizing the evidence and then saying, is there a probable cause here? Not even. Is it beyond a reasonable doubt. And they're getting booted out of the grand jury room, which is very abnormal. But then you need to have 12 unanimous jurors, 12 jurors of their peers who are going to convict. We haven't even gotten to that point. But those are the guardrails to the rule of law that we were talking about in the criminal side. But that's not the point, as Christy said. I think that's right. Which is just intimidation because it made. It's not Jerome Powell right now. He is certainly trying to intimidate Jerome Powell, who's admirably standing up. But there's a trickle down effect. And I see it with my colleagues who are wary of public, public, I mean, personal security concerns, that if they are actually out there, as Lisa Murkowski said several months ago. Yeah, I worry about it. And they're acting and voting based on their physical security, which is just anathema to democracy, is baffling. But that's the kind of bully tactics, mob boss tactics, intimidation tactics that Donald Trump uses. And ultimately what Jerome Powell is doing, what Tish James is doing, Adam Schiff, Jim Comey is they're standing up to the bully. And right now they are winning. But there are many others who see that message and may not have that fortitude to stand up. And that's really where the system breaks down.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

I want to press you on that. I have to sneak in a break. No one's going anywhere. Also ahead, DHS Secretary Kristi Noem is confronted over a MAGA double standard, staring all of us in the face. How she justifies ice shooting 37 year old Renee Nicole Goode while Donald Trump pardoned violent protesters and insurrectionists who attacked the Capitol Police on January six plus Protests swell in Minneapolis after the death of Renee Nicole Goode as ICE arrests continue there. Mayor Jacob Fry and Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison will be holding a press conference. We'll bring that to you. And later in the program, Minneapolis wasn't the only place that saw massive protests over the weekend. All across our country, from coast to coast, there was a groundswell of grassroots protest and anger from Americans of all stripes all across our country over ICE and mass deportations and everything that the Trump administration is doing. We'll have all those stories for you and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

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[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

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[Congressman Dan Goldman]

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[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

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[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Within minutes after the killing of Renee Nicole Good by an ICE agent, the Trump administration, including Donald Trump, began an all out campaign to describe her as a domestic terrorist without providing the public with any evidence to support that claim. When asked to clarify why Secretary Noem jumped to that conclusion so quickly, Secretary Noem doubled down on the comments she made, again with no evidence provided to back them up. Watch.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

You said that she was a domestic terrorist. How do you define domestic terrorists?

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

She weaponized her vehicle to conduct an act of violence against a law enforcement officer. And the public as they are doing that.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

How can you assert with certainty that she was trying to hurt the officer as opposed to she was trying to flee the scene?

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

If you look at what the definition of domestic terrorism is, it completely fits the situation on the ground.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

That's not true. But we should also note that analysis of the video shows that Renee Nicole Goode was steering away. She had turned the tires away from the officer before he opened fire. Noem's definition of domestic terrorism, quote, an act of violence against law enforcement officer, actually came back to bite her in the rear end later in that very interview. Watch.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

I want to show some video to you right now and ask what is the appropriate response for the police officers in this situation? Those are law enforcement officers being physically attacked by this standard. Would any of those officers be justified in shooting and killing the people, causing them physical harm?

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

Every single situation is going to rely on the situation those officers are on, that they know that when people are putting hands on them, when they are using weapons against them, when they are physically harming them, that they have the authority to arrest those individuals.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

The president pardoned every single one of.

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

Those people and make sure that they're getting justice for their actions going forward.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

President Trump pardoned every single one of.

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

Those and every single one of these investigations comes in the full context of the situation on the ground. And that's one thing that President Trump has been so focused on, is making sure that when we're out there, we don't pick and choose which situations are in which laws are enforced and which Ones aren't.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

I just showed you video of people attacking law enforcement officers. Undisputed proof, undisputed evidence. And I just said President Trump pardoned all of them. And you said that President Trump is enforcing all the laws equally. It's just not true.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

I can't cover her without sort of injecting what we know, what she's told us about her own personal character. The sadistic act of shooting her own dog is something she writes about in her own book. So that's who's running all of this as a starting point.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Well, she's not really running anything. Let's be real. She is a complete puppet. And Corey Lewandowski is running the Department of Homeland Security. Actually, he's following directions of Stephen Miller, who is running it. And there's no question that she can't even put a coherent sentence together to respond to those questions, because she doesn't actually understand the things that she's saying. Obviously, even if she drove her car directly at the officer, that's not domestic terrorism. But what you said is exactly right, which is, first of all, if she wanted to use her car as a weapon, why did she back up? And then why was she clearly turning the steering wheel? But what really is remarkable here is they've made up their mind. They made up their mind before seeing many of the videos, and they already concluded, from Trump to Noem to JD Vance to Stephen Miller, that this guy was acting within his rights to shoot her three times, shoot a moving vehicle, which is against all law enforcement training, and shoot her three times in the head and kill her. And yet now we're supposed to believe that the FBI is going to do an independent investigation and that they're actually. Of course not. That is garbage. They are sweeping this under the rug, as they do with anything that is politically damaging to them. And then they'll focus on, as we were just talking about, Jerome Powell or anybody Donald Trump doesn't like it, is the definition of unequal prosecution. And what part of the problem is the law, which is why I'm introducing a bill that would change qualified immunity for that officer, because it is true that if the officer subjectively believes that he was at risk, and there's a broad standard that, you know, in the blink of an eye, do you know, yes or no, then he is immune from liability. So we're. I'm trying to change it to an objective standard, which is to say a reasonable officer in that situation, what should they have done? Because in some cases, yes, they should have qualified immunity, but in this particular case, where you have these rogue officers in masks, totally militarized. Absolutely. Demonizing and terrorizing cities and communities all around the country, separate and apart from whether they're immigrant communities or not. Americans. Nicole Good is an. Renee Goode is an American. And this is what they are bringing. You know, you talk about Venezuela like this is what a dictator rules with, with secret police that are indiscriminately killing people, that he's telling oil companies he's going into Venezuela before he tells Congress, like the oligarchs in Russia, he's using our criminal justice system as a political tool. That is the number one lesson that we give to other countries around the world about the step one for democracy. I mean, just look at what is going on. It is Vladimir Putin's playbook that Donald Trump is following. And he has all of these lackeys who are just doing his bidding for him. And it's disgraceful and it's going to cause real damage to this country, to our own national security. Let's be real. This is not something like it's just gonna stay in Venezuela or overseas. It's gonna come back and it's gonna bite us in the ass.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

I mean, that's the subject of some of your recent reporting about how the FBI and the DOJ have been essentially gutted. And decades of experience in counterterrorism, counter cyber, counter sex trafficking, counter drug cartels. All that expertise has been purged because those happen to be the people I think, that you were referencing at the top of the hour who believe in the rule of law.

[Mike Schmidt (New York Times investigative reporter)]

Yeah, look, half of SDNY is working on document production for Epstein. Senior leaders in major U.S. attorney's offices across the country are working on the President's political prosecutions. The Times just broke the story earlier today that the number two in edva, as the congressman was pointing out, just quit or was fired over his lack of whatever. The hollowing out of the Justice Department is, I think, a politically risky thing, because the first basic question whenever anything happens is what? What did the FBI and Justice Department know and what did they do? And look, Donald Trump is playing with a lot of different volatile things, whether it's on the international stage or if it's domestically or if it's economically and so far, the consequences for him politically while, you know, I'm sure people will point to his approval ratings like, have not been catastrophic.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Well, he hasn't been impeached, but he is more unpopular than he was during COVID.

[Mike Schmidt (New York Times investigative reporter)]

Fair. But if you're playing with all these really important things in highly unusual ways, in ways that we haven't seen recent presidents. I just think he's exposing himself and exposing himself and exposing the country. But he has an ability to persevere through these types of things in ways that certainly other politicians don't.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

I mean, and I guess that's the bottom line. I mean, when does sort of the rule of law snap back? Does it?

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

I hope it does. I think the first thing is, though, with someone like Kristi Noem, she needs to be under oath, being asked questions.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Before the Congressman. Yeah.

[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

Before Congress. And answering questions. Because she said a number of things during that interview that were not only against protocol. Like, why is she. She said to Jake Tapper, she was talking to the officers, that she was the one talking to the supervisors afterwards. Like, that's not what you would expect the secretary to do. That's OIG or doj. She has no law enforcement experience. And then she believed, based on those conversations, she knew the truth. She has no.

[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Said it publicly. It's all bananas. Thank you for being here. Keep coming back. Always. We thank the Congressman and Mike Schmidt for starting us off today. Chris, he sticks around a little bit longer. Coming up for us, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry and Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison are holding a press conference on ice's ongoing presence and conduct in Minneapolis. We'll bring that to you. Stay with us.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

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[Christy Greenberg (Legal analyst, former Criminal Division deputy chief at SDNY)]

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[Mayor Jacob Fry]

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[Congressman Dan Goldman]

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[Mayor Jacob Fry]

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[Host (possibly a journalist or anchor)]

Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry and Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison are holding a press conference right now. Let's listen in.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

We've come together and we're here to announce a lawsuit we're filing against the United States Department of Homeland Security to end the unlawful unprecedented surge of the federal law enforcement agents into Minnesota. Because this has to stop. It just has to stop. We allege that the obvious targeting of Minnesota for our diversity, for our democracy and our differences of opinion with the federal government is a violation of the Constitution and of federal law. We allege that the surge reckless impact on our schools, on our local law enforcement, is a violation of the 10th Amendment and the sovereign laws and powers of the Constitution grants to states. We allege that DHS's use of excessive and lethal force, their warrantless racist arrests, their targeting of our courts, our churches, houses of worship and schools are a violation of the Administrative Procedures act on arbitrary and capricious federal actions. And we ask that the courts will end the surge of thousands of DHS agents into Minnesota. We ask the courts to end the DHS unlawful behavior in our state, the intimidation, the threats, the violence. We asked the courts to end the tactics on our places of worship, our schools, our courts, our marketplaces, our hospitals and even funeral homes. The deployment of thousands of armed mass DHS agents to Minnesota has done our state serious harm. This is in essence a federal invasion of the Twin Cities and Minnesota. And it must stop. DHS agents have sown chaos and terror across the metropolitan area and in cities across the state of Minnesota. Schools have gone onto lockdown. Entire districts have had to cancel school for tens of thousands of students to ensure safety and offer online education. Because of the students and the parents fear of coming into the school, local businesses are struggling, revenues are down, and some retail stores, daycares and restaurants have actually closed because people are afraid to go out and to do their shopping. Whether they're immigrants or whether they are citizens of many generations. This surge has made us less safe. Thousands of poorly trained, aggressive and armed agents of the state of the federal government have rolled into our communities, overwhelmed. Our local police departments and law enforcement agencies should be focused on our public safety. But Instead, many are dealing with the aftermath of DHS agents chaos and violence. I want to thank our law enforcement officers for doing a tremendous job under very difficult circumstances. Not the people, but the federal government. Minneapolis police have had to respond to more than 220, excuse me, 20 ICE related incidents like witnesses seeking people being pulled into unmarked vehicles by men in masks or ICE abandoning vehicles on the street with people detained inside. This is an unlawful commandeering of police resources. In just two days, responding to the chaos ICE has caused by has cost the city $2 billion in law enforcement and overtime expenses. Two days. And I wish I could stop there, but I can't. Because these poorly trained, aggressive and armed agents of the, of the federal state have terrorized Minnesota with widespread unlawful conduct. They're acting, they're making unconstitutional arrests and using excessive force. DHS agents have barged into restaurants asking to access secure areas. And when asked to present a warrant, which is required by law, they respond, we don't need one. DHS agents have arrested peaceful bystanders. They have fired chemical irritants at people obeying lawful, lawful orders while exercising their first amendment rights. They have even done so at some of our most sensitive places, like Roosevelt High School here in Minneapolis. They have detained law abiding citizens, leaving them handcuffed for hours just because of the color of their skin or what they're wearing, or they speak English with an accent. And on January 7, 2026, a DHS agent shot and killed Renee Nicole Good, leaving her children without a mother and her six year old son without either parent. This has to stop. So let's be clear. It never should have started. These agents have no good reason to be here. Minnesota. Minnesota's non citizen immigrant population is just one and a half percent, which is a hat, which is half the national average. Our state's percentage is lower than Utah, Texas and Florida's. But none of those states have thousands of federal agents swarming their streets or harming their people. The administration says that they're focused on finding criminals. Worst of the worst, they say. But many of the people the DHS is arresting in Minnesota have no criminal history. That fits a pattern. In 2025, 93% of the people arrested by ICE had no violent criminal history. 65% had no criminal convictions at all. And randomly stopping people in the street because their skin color isn't the one that they expect or want isn't doing a thing to help public safety. I've heard the administration talk about fraud. No, not the 43 fraud convictions the President has or the 43 million dollar fraudsters the President has pardoned, but instead saying that ICE is here to look for fraud somehow. You know, we work with federal government all the time, and if the federal government wants to help us with forensic accountants, we're open to that conversation. But these ICE agents who are engaged in the behavior that they're engaged in are not helping public safety at all. Immigration enforcement agents aren't trained to investigate fraud. And randomly stopping people in the street because you don't like their accent isn't going to stop fraud. So enforcing federal immigration law and fighting fraud are just pretexts for this surge. The real reason? It's no secret Donald Trump and his administration have been targeting people, cities and states that don't agree with them politically. He singled out Minnesota countless times. He's called us corrupt and crooked. He's attacked our funding to the tune of billions of dollars, which we are challenging. And we fought back, of course. He's attacked programs that Minnesotans rely on and tried to shut them down and pay taxes for. And he's attacked Minnesotans with despicable, racist, xenophobic language. The truth is, Donald Trump doesn't seem to like our state very much. But what's that about? He doesn't like our best in the nation, safe and secure elections. And sometimes he doesn't like who we choose in them. Just last week, Trump claimed that he won Minnesota three times, when in fact he's never won Minnesota. He doesn't like how we take care of each other or how we make sure our kids have enough to eat. He doesn't like the strength that immigrant communities bring to our state. And he doesn't seem to like that we protect our neighbors, no matter where they were born. In short, the Trump administration's decision to target Minnesota and Twin Cities is motivated by a desire to retaliate against Trump's perceived political opponents, who are the people of the state of Minnesota and Twin Cities rather than any good faith concerns about immigration enforcement, public safety or law enforcement. In conclusion, I didn't have the pleasure and the benefit of knowing Renee Nicole Good, but her friends and family knew her as someone who was kind, someone who loved her family deeply, and someone willing to stand up for her neighbors. That sounds like the Minnesota that I know. The administration wants to paint false political narratives about us, but we know who we are and we know our rights. The Constitution gives Minnesota the sovereign authority to protect health and well being of every single person who lives on our borders. The Constitution gives us the right to vote for who we want, pray however we want and be whoever we want without fear of being racially profiled, assaulted or killed in our own communities. We're going to defend those rights. Because as much as they'd like to believe it, DHS is not above the law, and the people of Minnesota are certainly not beneath it. Let me now bring forward my mayor, the mayor who's where I go to go home at night and is doing a wonderful job protecting our city. Mayor Jacob Fry.

[Mayor Jacob Fry]

Thank you, Attorney General Ellison, for your leadership and your incredible team's work around this issue. Thank you to Mayor her of St. Paul for your partnership. These are not normal times. And so the response that we are asking for from the judicial system and from the courts requires that we file suit. At this particular moment. What we are seeing right now is not normal immigration enforcement. We are not asking ICE not to do ICE things. We are asking this federal government to stop the unconstitutional conduct that is invading our streets each and every day. You've seen the videos. At times, there are as many as 50 agents arresting one person. The scale is wildly disproportionate and has nothing to do with keeping people safe. In Minneapolis, we've done work extensively with the federal government under multiple administrations, to keep people in our city safe. We have worked with the dea, the atf, the FBI, the attorney, the Attorney General's office, as well as the U.S. attorney's office to successfully drive down crime in our city. We've seen the results of that work. But let's be clear. The stated reason of this federal government for bringing in this full invasion of ICE and border control is not safety. If it were safety, there would be other mechanisms to achieve safety.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Safety.

[Mayor Jacob Fry]

By the way, crime is down in virtually every category in virtually every neighborhood of this city. If this were about fraud, then you'd see an invasion, perhaps of accountants. But that's not what you see. What you see is people being indiscriminately taken off our streets. Discrimination only takes place to the extent that determination has made that somebody is Somali or is Latino, or at least they look that way. And then there is virtually no discrimination thereafter. Here's the thing. You can't indiscriminately take people off our streets, American citizens off our streets. You cannot drag pregnant women through the snow. You're not allowed to take teenagers out of their car and detain them when they are, in fact, American citizens. That is against the law in every state. That is against our United States Constitution. And we're feeling the impact here in Minneapolis. Schools have Closed. People are afraid to go to work, shop, or seek medical care. 911 calls are up. Police resources are indeed stretched thin. We have approximately 600 officers in the city of Minneapolis. Mayor her has approximately 600 officers in the city of St. Paul. The number of ICE agents and border control are now in the thousands. They are in the thousands. If the goal was immigration enforcement, if the goal were simply to look for people that are undocumented, Minneapolis and St. Paul would not be the place where you would go. There are countless more people that are undocumented in Florida and Texas and Utah. Why are they in these much smaller cities in the middle of the Midwest? The answer is very clear. It is politics. Florida and Texas and Utah are Republican states. The reason that Minnesota and Minneapolis are being targeted is because you've got a Democratic governor, a Democratic attorney general, and you got Democratic mayors. We are doing everything possible to keep our cities safe through this unprecedented time. And at the same time, we have police officers that are tired. We've seen damage substantially because we're now having to pay a ton of overtime, millions of dollars of emergency overtime for law enforcement. Emergency operations have been activated across our city and state agencies pulling focus on daily core services that we, by the way, are tasked with providing. Local police officers are being diverted from the very work that we need to be doing. And small businesses are losing significant revenue, with some worried that they may not survive this at all. People are scared to take their kids into school or daycare to go into work. They're going to have difficulty paying rent. There is no doubt in my mind the kind of action that the federal government is taking is not just mean spirited, it's unconstitutional. And every one of us need to be standing up. Let me give you another example. Just last week, a group of our city's public works employees were stopped by ICE agents. Three of the four employees were not white. The ICE agents asked to see the IDs of the three non white employees and didn't even bother to ask the white employee for the identification. Minneapolis is being treated, targeted, because we stand up for our neighbors and we welcome immigrants because we believe in the law. And as I said, frankly, because we are in a blue city in a blue state. Donald Trump should know, as long as federal agents are in our city acting unconstitutionally against our neighbors, we will continue to push back with everything we got. And let me just take a moment to say how grateful I am to the residents of our city and of our state. We are not victims in the city of Minneapolis. We've got heroes that are standing up for each other, that are standing by the neighbors that they love. And one thing that I can tell you for certain is that we aren't backing down. We don't retreat in Minneapolis. We don't back down in Minnesota. We stand up against bullies. And right now, what we are asking for is an intervention from the court to push back on this unconstitutional conduct, pure and simple. I'll now turn it off to Mayor Her.

[Mayor Melvin Carter]

Good afternoon, everyone. Today I'm proud to stand with Mayor Fry and Attorney General Ellison to fight for our residents. This federal occupation of our cities needs to end immediately. Federal law enforcement is racially profiling our residents, creating mass chaos and undermining the relationship between local government and our communities. We will not stand idly by and watch this happen. With this collective action, we are taking a firm stance to tell federal law enforcement that this cannot happen in our country. It cannot happen in our state, and it cannot happen in St. Paul. Federal law enforcement is going far beyond what they can and should be doing to enforce immigration laws. They are endangering our community's safety, straining our resources, and sowing distrust. While we know we can't control federal agents, we will pull every lever we have to fight back in every way that we can. They've come into St. Paul and needlessly invaded our neighborhoods and homes. They're targeting us based on what we look and sound like. Our residents are scared. And as local officials, we have a responsibility to act. I want to thank Attorney General Ellison and Mayor Fry for taking a united stance for the people of Minnesota and to our immigrant and refugee communities. Let me be clear. You are a vital part of our city. You are loved and you are wanted, and you are important to the fabric of our state. As a refugee who came to this country, this is the state that welcomed my grandparents here in the late 70s, allowed our family to break the cycle of poverty in one generation, educated us, allowed us to build wealth, and within one generation, have a new new family members that are educated and a part of this economy and this workforce that we need to continue to make sure that our state stays that. And that can't happen if ICE continues to run amok of our city and our state. And so we cannot let this federal administration divide us. We need to come together now more than ever. Thank you.

[Mayor Jacob Fry]

Thank you.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

So now we have a few minutes for questions. I want to acknowledge the vital presence of President Elliot Payne of our Minneapolis City Council here. On behalf of all of the council members, I think in the Council representing the council. Thank you for your presence here, sir. And I also want to say thank you to all of our staff members who've worked so hard to prepare us for this moment. They all are very, very critical to the work that we do every day and we're grateful to them as well and they may help us answering some of your questions. We have about 15 minutes for questions and so I'll select the first person who I see. Tom. Attorney General Ellison.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

There's been some success in getting the National Guard out of some states with lawsuits like this.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

That was over a question of what.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

The role of the National Guard is. It's pretty clear what ice's role is.

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

Is that going to be make this.

[Congressman Dan Goldman]

Legal challenge more difficult?

[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

I don't think so, because ice, as I think the Mayor Fry said very well, ICE has a. Has a statutory responsibility to do a certain job. Where our argument is they are exceeding that dramatically in unconstitutional unlawful ways, violating our first and tenth amendment rights, our equal sovereignty principle and provisions of the Administrative Procedures Act. They have to obey the law themselves as they carry forth their statutory duties. We argue they're not doing that. They have to do. They have to operate within the law and the Constitution. Yes, sir. Thanks for being here. Taxes was feeling unwelcome. Now Taxes is an open door, literally to new TurboTax stores. Meet our experts in person.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Attorney General Keith Ellison]

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