“The last bit of irony”

Summary

Deadline: White House

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Episode: “The last bit of irony”
Date: August 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses an unfolding crisis at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) involving the attempted firing of CDC director Dr. Susan Minares by Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and the resulting mass exodus of top CDC officials. Nicolle Wallace, joined by leading reporters and policy experts, dissects how these actions threaten the future of American public health infrastructure, the dangerous politicization of science, and the real-world impact on Americans—particularly regarding vaccine access, Medicaid, and the government’s ability to address public health emergencies. The panel also explores surging grassroots dissent across the political spectrum in response to the Trump administration’s agenda and undermining of scientific and institutional norms.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The CDC Crisis: Why Was Dr. Minares Targeted?

(Starts at approx. 01:08)

• Background: Dr. Susan Minares, recently confirmed as CDC director, is resisting pressure to resign after refusing to follow directives that conflict with scientific consensus—specifically around vaccines and autism.
• RFK Jr.’s role: Secretary Kennedy attempts to oust her for refusing to “rubber stamp unscientific reckless directives and fire dedicated health experts” (citing Minares’ lawyers).
• Legality: Minares’ attorneys argue that, due to Senate confirmation requirements, only the President can fire her, creating a political standoff.

Standout Quote

“This is not about one official. It is about the systematic dismantling of public health institutions, the silencing of experts, and the dangerous politicization of science.”
— Dr. Minares’ legal team (03:02)

Key Excerpts (Confirmation Hearing, June):

• Senator Susan Collins: “Do you agree with the American Medical Association that there is no scientific proven link between vaccines and autism?”
• Dr. Minares: “I have not seen a causal link between vaccines and autism.” (04:04)
• Reaffirms trust in mRNA vaccine safety, no prejudice against vaccine platforms.

2. Fallout: Wave of Resignations & Warnings

(06:30–09:47)

• Four senior CDC officials, including immunization and respiratory illness heads, resigned, citing “radical non-transparency” and “unskilled manipulation of data.”
• Dr. Ashish Jha: Describes the CDC as now a “hollow shell,” unable to fulfill core functions such as disease outbreak management, chronic disease prevention, and food safety.

Notable Quote

“When there is a salmonella outbreak, CDC goes. All of that is now at substantial risk. Nobody is minding the store. ... I don’t see in the short run a path forward to rebuilding a CDC.”
— Dr. Ashish Jha (09:47)

• Jha warns that, with ongoing staff reductions and scientific interference, the public health safety net is failing.

3. The Political Quagmire: Trump, RFK Jr., and the Perils for Science

(13:07–17:16)

• White House Silence: Dr. Minares is being denied access to her work, but Trump himself has not formally fired her, leaving RFK Jr. “miffed” and the situation unresolved.
• Political Calculations: Democrats recognize Minares’ unexpected backbone—Sen. Patty Murray admits she “was wrong” not to back her (16:23).
• Historical Parallels: Comparison to Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, who was initially derided but later respected for integrity.

Notable Quote

“She’s standing up to him, and she’s standing up to Kennedy. And ... she is showing some backbone. And Murray said I was wrong.”
— Cheryl Gay Stolberg, NYT (16:23)

4. Broader Consequences for the Public

(17:16–22:35)

• Medicaid and Vaccine Access: Millions (especially the elderly and vulnerable) stand to lose Medicaid and free vaccines, hugely unpopular and alarming to voters.
• Bottom-Up Backlash: Ben Rhodes notes growing “bottom up concern” as people experience consequences in their communities—closures of clinics, loss of services.

Notable Quote

“Some of these things are things you cannot avoid noticing — the deportation of the person in your community, the inaccessibility of a vaccine, the shutting down of a rural health clinic.”
— Ben Rhodes (18:56)

• Long-Term Dangers: Rhodes warns that undermining expert agencies (CDC, Federal Reserve, labor statistics) creates latent vulnerabilities, “the bill is going to come due ... when there’s a new infectious disease ... or a new foodborne illness.”

5. The Autism–Vaccine Narrative: Cruelty and Anti-Science

(26:15–32:57)

• RFK Jr. & Trump: Both advancing dubious claims of a link between vaccines and autism, promising an “announcement” in September.
• Appointees: Kennedy’s appointee to lead the autism investigation, David Guyer—lacking scientific credibility and history of medical misconduct—suggests a “conclusion in search of evidence.”
• Impact on Families: Cheryl Gay Stolberg reports that autism advocates feel betrayed: they want real research, not a rehash of discredited theories.

Notable Quotes

“They finally have a health secretary who’s committed to talking about autism ... but the research ... they fear is going toward answering a question that’s already been settled.”
— Cheryl Gay Stolberg (29:02)

“What concerns me ... is the stupid amateurism of Bobby Kennedy, wedded to the professional authoritarianism of the second Trump term.”
— Ben Rhodes (30:11)

• Policy Irony: Wallace calls out the “last bit of irony”—vital services for autistic children are being slashed, compounding harm by both promoting misinformation and cutting the very supports these families rely on.

Standout Wallace Close

“You’re going to help them by fabricating some tenuous link to vaccines that no actual scientist with rigor says exist. And you’re going to take away the services that bring out the genius and brilliance inside any child with autism ... suggests that you’re not that committed to families with autistic kids.” (32:57)

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6. Grassroots Dissent and the Real-World Impact

(34:14–45:41 — Town Hall Segments & Analysis)

• Nationwide Discontent: Widespread, bipartisan voter anger is surfacing at Republican town halls—in Maine, Ohio, Alabama, Oklahoma—over Medicaid cuts, rising prices, tariffs, and the degrading of public health and due process.
• Authentic Voter Pushback: Constituents press their representatives with pointed questions (e.g., “Who pays the tariff?” “How will you explain your vote to people who will no longer be able to afford to see their doctor?”).
• Gaslighting Response: Members’ dismissive, convoluted answers provoke walkouts and open frustration.

Notable Exchange

“Who pays the tariffs? Who pays the tariffs? ... That was a reception [Susan Collins] got while attending a ribbon cutting ceremony.”
— Nicolle Wallace (36:55)

• Analyst Reflection: John Heilemann draws historical parallels to the 2018 midterms and the limits of manufactured “talking points” in the face of palpable, widespread discontent.

7. Institutional Independence and Legal Battles

(47:54 onward)

• Federal Reserve Fight: Trump’s attempt to fire Fed Governor Lisa Cook triggers a lawsuit, threatening the independence of the central bank and establishing a pattern of ousting officials who contradict or displease the administration.
• Emerging Pattern: Multiple officials and institutions—CDC, Federal Reserve—are facing direct intervention for political loyalty over expertise or independence.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes (with Approximate Timestamps)

• “She stood up for [science and integrity] and she will continue to do so. The attack on Dr. Minares is a warning to every American.” (03:02) — Minares’ lawyers
• “We are fixing [the CDC]. And it may be that some people should not be working there anymore.” (06:10) — RFK Jr. on Fox News
• “Secretary Kennedy has boxed us into a corner, and the American people are going to suffer as a result of this.” (10:39) — Dr. Ashish Jha
• “I think you were poignant, Nicole ... it's both the acute challenges ... and it's also that sense of reality itself is being taken away.” (31:45) — Ben Rhodes
• “The only people who are losing access to Medicaid ... aren't affected in Ohio because we didn't add illegals ... they'll probably get a job or they'll probably go to school ... it's going to be great.” (35:53–36:20) — Rep. Warren Davidson, as voters walk out
• “That was a lot of conversation and a lot of words to basically say, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” (43:14) — John Heilemann
• “You may have an issue with our immigration policy. But did you sign up for the eradication of due process in our country?” (44:21) — Basil Smales

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Structural Timeline (Selected Timestamps)

• 01:08 — Nicolle Wallace opens focus on CDC chaos and outlines timeline/events
• 04:04 — Dr. Minares at June Senate confirmation (clip)
• 06:30 — Resignations and top officials’ protest statement
• 07:36 — Dr. Ashish Jha unpacks RFK Jr.'s agenda and CDC dysfunction
• 13:07 — Cheryl Gay Stolberg details the political dance around Minares’ firing
• 18:19 — Ben Rhodes on bottom-up voter anger and coming consequences
• 26:15 — RFK Jr. and Trump discuss “autism announcements”
• 27:42 — Cheryl Gay Stolberg on the false promise of Kennedy’s autism “research”
• 32:57 — Wallace’s “last bit of irony” on slashed autism services
• 34:14 — Voters confront Susan Collins in Maine
• 36:55 — Ohio town hall (Medicaid cut anger)
• 41:32 — John Heilemann draws history lessons and analogies to 2018 backlash
• 45:41 — Basil Smales: It’s all “deeply personal and affecting everyday Americans”

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Tone and Language

• Candid and urgent: No-nonsense analysis; Wallace and guests openly call out anti-science, political interference, and the real harm to Americans.
• Empathetic and outraged: Respect for affected families and professionals; frustration with systemic dismantling.
• Historically grounded: Frequent analogies to past political events and learned institutional lessons.

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In Summary

This episode unsparingly dissects the ongoing dismantling of the CDC under the Trump administration and RFK Jr., portraying it as emblematic of a broader attack on science and expertise. The firing of Dr. Minares and the exodus of top officials signals a public health system in crisis, with direct consequences for vaccine access, Medicaid, and basic disease outbreak response. Analysts connect these events to rising anger at the grassroots—a nonpartisan backlash to broken promises, eroding services, and the replacement of truth with loyalty and conspiracy. Ultimately, the episode is a call to recognize and resist the politicization of science and the hollowing out of once-independent government institutions.

Transcript

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Nicole Wallace]

I need a coffee.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in the east this afternoon. There is confusion and chaos at another federal agency vital to the well being of all Americans from coast to coast. Because right now we are monitoring what is essentially a stare down between Donald Trump and the person he picked up and put in charge of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention just a couple months ago. Her name is Dr. Susan Minares, who last night revealed that she is refusing to resign. She's under pressure to resign from the nation's top health official. That's Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He is the Health and Human Services secretary. Lawyers for Menaras provided the backstory. Quote, when Manaras refused to rubber stamp unscientific reckless directives and fire dedicated health experts, she chose protecting the public over serving a political agenda. For that, she has been targeted. This is not about one official. It is about the systematic dismantling of public health institutions, the silencing of experts, and the dangerous politicization of science. The attack on Dr. Minares is a warning to every American. Our evidence based systems are being undermined from within science and integrity can never be compromised. Dr. Minara stood up for both and she will continue to do so. Kennedy has tried firing her and the White House tried firing her as well. But lawyers from Manaras suggest that because her position, the position of CDC director now requires Senate approval, Manarus actually serves at the pleasure of the President himself, and therefore she needs to be fired personally by him, which is a little awkward. In March, another nominee for CDC director was abruptly withdrawn just prior to his confirmation hearing. At the time Trump said this about Menares, quote, as an incredible mother and dedicated public servant, Dr. Minares understands the importance of protecting our children, our communities and our future. Americans have lost confidence in the CDC due to political bias and disastrous mismanagement. A statement was in March. Then two months ago she took part in a Senate confirmation hearing. One month ago she was confirmed. Now it appears she's on the verge of being fired by Donald Trump personally. The big question though right now for us is why? What happened between then and now? Perhaps it's worth revisiting that confirmation hearing in June and the answer she provided that appeared to run up against RFK's ideology watch do you agree with the.

[Susan Collins]

American Medical association that there is no scientific proven link between vaccines and autism?

[Nicole Wallace]

I have not seen a causal link between vaccines and autism.

[Basil Smales]

Any thoughts about the safety of MRNA vaccine in general?

[Nicole Wallace]

The FDA has in the production of the COVID 19 vaccine, had approved the MRNA vaccines as safe and had demonstrated efficacy associated with them.

[Basil Smales]

So you would not be prejudiced from the get go against such a platform, Such a vaccine built upon a platform, whether it's for Covid flu, for Lyme disease or anything else.

[Nicole Wallace]

That is what I have no a prior prejudice against MRNA platform or any other approach that is being taken to develop vaccines. Again, we don't yet know exactly why Menaras was suddenly targeted by Kennedy. We only know that she insists she made some principled stand in defiance of some directive and the news of her firing has triggered an exodus of top talent. Following news of her firing for other director level, CDC officials announced that they too were resigning. That includes the CDC's top respiratory illness and immunization official who issued a statement that read in part, I am unable to serve in an environment that treats CDC as a tool to generate policies and materials that do not reflect scientific reality and are designed to hurt rather than improve the public health. Having worked in local and national public health for years, I have never experience such radical non transparency, nor have I seen such unskilled manipulation of data to achieve a political end rather than the good of the American people. Wow. Earlier today, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Was asked about this on Fox News.

[Susan Collins]

Is this something that's caught you by surprise? What's your reaction to people that are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Getting a little worried?

[Rob Lowe]

I think that no, it has not caught us by a surprise. Again, I cannot comment on personnel issues, but the agency is in trouble and we need to fix it. And we are fixing it. And it may be that some people should not be working there anymore.

[Nicole Wallace]

Including the person who was confirmed a month ago. Hmm. Earlier today, there was a rally in support of those folks who just resigned in protest outside of the CDC in Atlanta. Whatever truly happened behind the scenes to put in motion all this chaos, it does appear to be another example of another federal agency willfully and intentionally depleted of science and rigor and talent. And as always, it's not RFK Jr. It's us, the American people, who stand to pay the price. It's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former White House COVID 19 response coordinator, Dean of Brown University School of Public Health, Dr. Ashish Shah is back with us. Also joining us, New York Times health policy and politics reporter Sheryl Gay Stolberg is here, and former deputy national security adviser to President Barack Obama. MSNBC contributor Ben Rhodes is here. Dr. Jha, let me first ask you if you have any more information about what happened, what. What this was about behind the scenes? Yeah.

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

Well, first of all, Nicole, thanks for having me back. I've talked to a lot of friends at the CDC, including people who have resigned over the last 24 hours. Look, basically what it came down to is RFK Jr. Has a whole set of preconceived beliefs that are unmovable by data and evidence. He essentially, on Covid vaccines, came to the director and had presented a set of approaches on restricting access to Covid vaccines. She would not sign off on it. I think for people in the cdc, this was a harbinger of what is coming in September when the secretary is almost surely going to come out and claim that vaccines cause autism based on, as Dr. Jaskalaka said, unskilled manipulation of data. And I think this just became untenable. And Susan Mares is a person of great integrity and courage, and I think she felt like she could no longer continue to sign off on things that are just patently false. And then she was pressured to fire her senior, senior team. She didn't do that. And we are where we are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me just make sure I understand all the words that are being used here. Unskilled manipulation of data. What are they warning us about?

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

Yeah. So look, Secretary Kennedy hired somebody to come in to figure out what's causing autism in, like, three months. First of all, that is not a doable task. There are a lot of things that have contributed to autism. The person who has come in is not particularly sophisticated, is not somebody who has a lot of capability, and they're really doing a very shoddy analysis designed to demonstrate that vaccines cause autism, even though all the evidence and all the analysis so far has proven that link to be false. So it's not just this manipulation of data for falsehoods. It's really being done by an amateur who's not very good at this. And that's the point I think Dr. Duskalakis was making.

[Nicole Wallace]

And help me understand what this means for the American public and those who rely on vaccines to protect their families and their kids and their ability to go to work, their ability to send their kids to school without worrying about COVID and flu and everything else. Are vaccines themselves in jeopardy?

[Basil Smales]

Yeah.

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

So, Nicole, the problem here is that actually much more is at jeopardy than just vaccines. Of course, vaccines are absolutely in the crosshairs. But let's look at what has happened. We've fired a lot of CDC staff over the last five months. Now. We have fired, or actually en masse, resigned this tire senior leadership of the cdc, not just the director, but the people who run the major centers inside cdc. Essentially. Now you have a hollow shell of an organization. Obviously, vaccines are one part of what they do. They do suicide prevention, they do chronic disease management, they do disease outbreaks, food outbreaks. When there is a salmonella outbreak, CDC goes. All of that is now at substantial risk. Nobody is minding the store managing those things. Americans count on that. State public health officials need a functioning cdc. And right now, we do not have a functioning cdc. And I'll be honest, I tend not to be a kind of a, you know, a doom stare. I don't see in the short run a path forward to rebuilding a cdc. We are. Secretary Kennedy has boxed us into a. Into a corner, and the American people are going to suffer as a result of this.

[Nicole Wallace]

So if the American people are going to suffer through disease and illness, and that was the thing that really sank Donald Trump's first presidency. If you could say something directly to Donald Trump right now, what would you say?

[Susan Collins]

Well, I actually have said this to.

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

People in the Trump White House, and it is exactly this point, which is mismanagement of an infectious disease outbreak sank his presidency, certainly sank his reelection. And this is the one thing you don't want to screw up twice. There are lots of other things that.

[Basil Smales]

You don't want to screw up.

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

But for me, this is a real, really important thing. And I have, and I have colleagues and friends in the Trump administration that I have said that to. They agree with that. The problem is that they have a health secretary who's actively undermining that agenda. And there is I think going to be a reckoning between the President and the health secretary because ultimately when people get harmed it will fall on the President. And I don't think the President likes that kind of political liability.

[Nicole Wallace]

What do you, I mean RFK Jr. Is a crank. He never pretended to be anything else. What do you see as three and a half years for the entire sort of mass of science and medicine and health professionals that he oversees if Donald Trump leaves him there?

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

Yeah, well first of all, I think many of us are hopeful that he will not be here that long in that role. Second is what is going to happen is you're going to see a lot more action by states. I think I've been talking to state health officials not just in blue states but also in purple and red states. They are horrified at what is happening and they are realizing that the buck is going to have to start stopping with them. And so you're going to see states beef up their, their processes. They're, they're going to have to more invest more money. But a 50 state solution to public health doesn't work. It didn't work in the pandemic. It's not going to be a great solution. But you are going to see states take more of a role and you're going to see a lot of discoordination across the country and then on things like NIH and fda. I mean I'm hoping that the leaders of those do a better job of standing up and continuing to fight for what's important.

[Nicole Wallace]

Cheryl, take me inside where the reporting stands right now about, about Dr. Minares employment status. She says she's not leaving until she's personally fired. Is it your understanding that that is underway, that that has happened, that that will happen?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

So I think this is a very curious question. What we know is that Secretary Kennedy summoned Dr. Manaras office on Monday. He said that she needed to fire some of the top CDC management and she also needed to agree to accept kind of without question the recommendations of the Advisory Committee on Vaccine Practices, which is now Kennedy's hand picked advisory committee. And she said no, I'm not going to do that. And he said well then you're going to be fired. Then she called senators including Senator Cassidy, the chairman of the Health Committee, he called Kennedy, Kennedy was mad and he summoned her back on Tuesday. And this set in motion this series of events. And where we now stand is that the White House, not President Trump, but the White house has said Dr. Manares is fired. As you said earlier, Dr. Manara serves at the Pleasure of the President. She is the first CDC director to be Senate confirmed, and her lawyers insist that she's not going unless the President fires her personally, which he hasn't done. Now, people close to her tell me that she's lost access to her CDC email. So I don't know exactly how much work she can be doing. But what I think is so curious is that the President has not publicly stood by his health secretary, Bobby Kennedy. And if I were Mr. Kennedy, I would probably be a little bit miffed about that. The big question, as you said, is, what's changed? The President praised her to the hilt two months ago. Well, now Kennedy wants her fired because she won't bend to his will. And Trump seems to be, you know, giving it the silent treatment.

[Nicole Wallace]

Cheryl, this happened to Jeffrey Berman. He writes about it in a book. He was the U.S. attorney at SDNY. And Trump sent Bill Barr to fire him, and same thing. Barr couldn't fire him. Trump had to do it. Trump ultimately fired him. I mean, is there a belief among doctor Minares that Trump won't fire her eventually, or is she just making him own this politically? Just, just tell me what the mindset is.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

I think that's exactly it. I think, you know, they are basically forcing Trump to. To do this. I don't think there's any question that eventually, you know, Trump will have to tell her that she's out or they'll, you know, they'll bar the doors or they'll name a replacement or whatever.

[Nicole Wallace]

But.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

They are making it difficult for him.

[Nicole Wallace]

Cheryl, there's a line in your story, some incredible reporting about Patty Murray, who didn't vote for Dr. Minares because she didn't think that she'd just take us through that. It's sort of real time revelations of how bad things will be on the other side of this.

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Yeah, it really is. You know what it kind of reminds me of in Dr. Koop, the famous Surgeon general. Democrats hated him, and they tried to block his confirmation. And then he really surprised them in standing up to Ronald Reagan and being kind of a forthright guy, accepting and promoting, you know, condom use for aids. And suddenly Democrats loved him. Well, now Susan Menoros, I think, finds herself in a Dr. Coop situation where a lot of Democrats didn't trust her, didn't want her to be CDC director. She was Trump's pick, and now she's standing up to him, and she's standing up to Kennedy. And I think that, you know, they're surprised. Patty Murray says, I'm, you know, I Thought she was going to be, you know, a tool of the Trump administration and not have any backbone. And, you know, she is showing some backbone. And Murray said I was wrong.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, Ben Rose, let me bring you in on this, on Trump owning this Medicaid is popular. Trump took it away from 11 to 18 million people. People who were in this country illegally but married to Americans and have jobs upward of 80% of Americans do not think they should be violently deported. And access to whatever vaccines you want, particularly for people over 65 who actually rely on free flu shots. They take the COVID shots when they're offered to them for free. They also are the largest consumers of shingles vaccines, pneumonia vaccines and others. And if you're in Medicare, those are all free as well. They're very popular. Those aren't mandated vaccines, but they are available and they are popular. And I wonder what you think Trump has either wittingly or unwittingly walked into with forcing the firing of the CDC director.

[Basil Smales]

Well, I think there are a couple of things that I'd highlight on that, Nicole. The first is that Trump counts a lot on the fact that many people in this country, because they're busy, because media is kind of fractured in this country, are just kind of not following everything day to day, right? And maybe if they do get some news, if they live in certain parts of the country, maybe they're getting the news through a Trump filter, right? It is all just about how great he is. But some of these things that you're talking about are things that you cannot avoid noticing. You know, the deportation of the person in your community, the inaccessibility of a vaccine, the shutting down of a rural health clinic.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right?

[Basil Smales]

These are the kinds of things that are starting to happen where people, even if they're not huge news consumers, even if they're not very political, they're going to notice. And so I think there's a risk that there's a kind of proliferation of bottom up concern about things that are being taken away from Americans, particularly some of the types of Americans that they might have supported Trump or been inclined to give him a chance. I think the second thing, though, that is even more worrying to me, Nicole, is if you look at a lot of these things he's been doing in the personnel space, you know, trying to fire somebody at the Fed to do away with the independence of the central bank, getting rid of the person who's in charge of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, you know, getting rid of intelligence officials who, you know, write reports that he doesn't like the sky doesn't fall tomorrow. And so there's a bit of a false comfort in that. And you sense this, Nicole, in some of the coverage, like, well, the economy hasn't collapsed yet, you know. Well, you know, even with the CDC director walking out the door, it's not like tomorrow the public health system is going to collapse. I think the challenge is going to be the bill is going to come due for all of us for these things. It's going to come due when there's a new infectious disease that requires action or a new foodborne illness that requires action. It's going to come due when we don't have good economic statistics and we're in an economic tailspin and we need an independent central bank. You know, it's going to come due when we need good intelligence to make a tough decision about war and peace. And so, yes, you are starting to see these consequences filter out in the country. But we have such short attention spans and Trump kind of counts on that, that the damage is going to come a year from now, two years from now, three years from now because of all these actions. And I think it's important that people connect the dots between what Trump is doing now and the consequences that are clearly going to come due.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I think the other thing to ask all of you about is this is being done in service of something that's a true hardship and tragedy. I mean, they're exploiting the pain of any family dealing with autism over unfounded links to vaccines. And so, you know, the whole thing is an absolute up yours to science and scientists. And the victims are the people on both ends. If you're either in pain or fear or anger because no one really understands all the causes of autism now you're also going to cause pain and suffering of all the people that won't have access to vaccines or accurate data. So it seems like a clear pile of losers on all sides, all in service of conspiracy theories and anti science. I want to press all of you on that side of the story. There'll be much more. We'll ask our reporters and experts to check their sources in the break to see if anything has changed on this fast moving story that literally impacts every one of us in every corner of America's public health system. Also ahead for us, from Ohio to Missouri to Maine, voters are angry. Voters are angry in deep red states and in deep red pockets of all sorts of states. They are telling their representatives, their elected representatives that they are not happy with the direction the country is heading, and that was before this story broke. We'll show you what that looks and sounds like. Also ahead, feeding off that grassroots energy from Americans, more and more Democratic governors are pushing back vocally and publicly. And with some newfound confidence and wind at their backs, we'll show you what that looks like. All that and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Nicole Wallace]

I need a coffee and you need.

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[Nicole Wallace]

America's public health is significantly endangered and Dimitri, Dan and I chose to leave together to send that bat signal. Essentially, we could no longer work at CDC because of these changes. We've had significant staff reductions. There's been scientific integrity and political interference issues and we're not able to do all the great programmatic work we have been doing. So we're very concerned and our departure, we hope, will be a wake up call for the Senate and others. That was Dr. Deborah Howery. She was the CDC's chief medical officer. She was speaking today to MSNBC following this wave of resignations and departures at the agency. We're back with Dr. Jha, Cheryl and Ben. I mean, Dr. Jha. The warnings could not be more stark and clear. Is it also a reach into Congress to do something they have not appeared willing to do in the seven months of Trump's presidency, and that is to do some very serious oversight here?

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

Look, I don't know what's going on through the minds of people like Dr. Cassidy, Senator Cassidy and Senator Collins and Murkowski and others, but I will say that I think they all have had expectations and hopes that Mr. Kennedy would be very different, but he is, in fact, exactly what you would have predicted based on 35 years of advocacy against scientific evidence. And that's what's playing out. We absolutely need Congress to step up here because the effects of all of this will be felt in communities across America, and they will be felt in red states and blue states and everywhere else. And for members of Congress, when those effects start being felt, it's going to be very, very hard to ignore this. So I don't know that there are many other mechanisms. I think, obviously, I find the idea that the president is maybe holding off or may not end up backing Senator Secretary Kennedy as as hopeful if that were to be. But I think ultimately solutions are going to have to come from Congress at this moment.

[Nicole Wallace]

Cheryl As I said before the break, Kennedy's entire worldview is in service of tying vaccines to autism. Here is an exchange between him and Donald Trump on that topic this week. Bobby, autism. If I could just, I don't want to go too long because we have a lot of people, but the autism is such a tremendous horror show. What's happening in our country and some other countries, but mostly our country. How are you doing on that?

[Rob Lowe]

We are doing very well. We will have announcements, as promised in September, finding interventions, certain interventions now that are clearly almost certainly causing autism, and we're going to be able to address those in September.

[Nicole Wallace]

Cheryl I mean, one thing that is true is that autism changes the family. I'm sure all of us know families supporting kids and family members with autism, and you've been become advocates and scientists, but you rely on the science being real. And what on earth could Bobby Kennedy be talking about when he says, quote, we have announcements as promised in September, finding interventions, certain interventions now are clearly almost certainly causing autism. What has he discovered in seven months?

[Cheryl Gay Stolberg]

Well, a couple points I want to make about that. First of all, Trump shares Kennedy's view that vaccines are linked to autism. Dozens of scientific studies have shown that there's no connection Kennedy, as she said earlier, has commissioned this study on, quote, unquote, the causes of autism, as if you could find the causes of autism in seven months. The person that he has picked is someone named David Guyer, who was accused in Maryland of practicing medicine without a license. He is also a longtime advocate of the theory that vaccines are somehow linked to autism. And this is the person that Kennedy has installed to draft a report about autism and find either the root cause, as the secretary has often said, or some kind of intervention, what that intervention might be. Well, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to think that maybe they're going to come up with the thing that they've been saying all along, which is that vaccines are somehow linked to it. And I do want to make a point about parents of children with autism, because I have been talking to some of them this week, and there's a great irony here. These parents have been crying for decades for more research into the causes of autism. And the causes are believed to be multiple, genetic and perhaps some environmental and a combination of things. And they finally have a health secretary who's committed to talking about autism and funding research. But the research that he's funding, they fear is going toward answering a question that's already been settled, which is what is the role of vaccines? They want real research, real science into root causes and things that might help their children, not just studies that are going to reiterate or, you know, challenge findings that are already established.

[Nicole Wallace]

Such an important piece of reporting, I mean, Ben, to take. And I was nibbling at it, but Cheryl went right to the heart of it. You know, to take a group that has been clamoring to be seen and then to see them and try to feed them something that isn't real or isn't rooted in rigorous, trusted science is just an ultimate act of cruelty.

[Basil Smales]

Yeah. And you know what concerns me, Nicole, is, I mean, to be blunt, you're kind of the stupid amateurism of Bobby Kennedy, wedded to the professional authoritarianism of the second Trump term. What do I mean by that? Well, what do autocrats do? It's us versus them. The entire politics, the entire frame, is finding somebody else to blame for a horrible problem. And it's almost always the wrong person. Right. And so what you're seeing from Kennedy and what Trump, if he comes on top of it, will do is let's make the villain for this autism, which is a horrific challenge, you know, like incredibly difficult circumstance for so many people. And instead of trying to find reality based answers, what they're going to offer is villains. That's a common thread. To your point, about what happens to these families or what happens to people who have a genuine need to see progress on these things. They're not going to get kind of objective, fact based answers to the very serious questions they have. They'll probably get some form of villain, because that's what this kind of politics churns out. And when you combine that kind of politics with Robert Kennedy's kind of conspiracy theory mindset, they'll have a bunch of answers that are about who to blame or what not to do, but not about how to actually address existing autism or how to try to address it going forward. And that's kind of what is so disorientating about the Trump presidency in general. These are all very real problems, from autism to the war in Ukraine to deindustrialization, all these challenges that Trump kind of demagogues are real. But what he does is he just offers up either phony solutions or people to blame who most, more often than not, are not even part of the problem. And it kind of compounds the trauma. Right? Because if you're dealing with traumatic circumstances or difficult circumstances, and then you have someone who comes and promises you the answer, and then all that answer is is just someone new to blame or some praise that you're supposed to give to Trump or Bobby Kennedy, it ends up compounding whatever difficulty you're in. And I think we as a country are kind of collectively going through that. I mean, I think you were poignant, Nicole, and how you ended the last segment. It's both the acute challenges that are being presented by the hollowing out of the CDC and the movement away from fact based research and decision making. But it's also that sense of reality itself is being taken away. And what's being replaced, it's being replaced by just whatever Bobby Kennedy and Donald Trump choose to say on a given day.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and I guess the last bit of irony, just to throw more into the pile, is that a lot of autistic kids, at least, are brilliant, but it's a whole lot of services that help pull that out. They have a lot of learning differences and all those services are at risk or being slashed because of the cuts to Medicaid. So, you know, you're going to help them by fabricating some tenuous link to vaccines that no actual scientist with rigor says exist. And you're going to take away the services that bring out the genius and the brilliance inside any child with autism that is verbally challenged or has A learning difference suggests that you're not that committed to families with autistic kids. We'll continue to need you guys. Dr. Ashish Shah and Cheryl Gay Stolberg, thank you so much. And Ben Rhodes, thank you as always. Thank you for starting us off today. Ahead for us, the entire Trump agenda, from broken promises about the price of, quote, the grocery to abandoning due process. It's all under fire. It's all at risk and voters know it. And they're calling it out to the faces of the people who elect them. It is something to see. We will show it to you next.

[Susan Collins]

Sam.

[Nicole Wallace]

So that was Susan Collins and those were her constituents making their discontent with the Republican senator from Maine heard loud and clear. That was a reception she got while attending a ribbon cutting ceremony. And the voters who have elected her to the Senate five times. Now, to be fair, the same Maine voters have never elected Donald Trump statewide. Maybe she should examine why that would be, that they'd be so unhappy. But we'll show you some places that actually have. This is Ohio at Republican Congressman Warren Davidson's town hall meeting. That's a state that voted for Donald Trump by more than 11 points last year. We'll let you hear what his voters think of his vote on Donald Trump's signature domestic spending bill.

[Susan Collins]

The big beautiful bill is projected to take Medicaid away from as many as 500,000 people. How will you explain your vote to the people who will no longer be able to afford to see their doctor?

[Nicole Wallace]

As I said early on, the only people who are losing access to Medicaid.

[Susan Collins]

Aren'T affected in Ohio because we didn't add illegals to Medicaid coverage.

[Nicole Wallace]

And able bodied working age adults. And I honestly think most of them.

[Susan Collins]

Will still keep access to Medicaid because.

[Nicole Wallace]

They'Ll probably get a job or they'll probably go to school.

[Susan Collins]

And lots of people are hiring.

[Nicole Wallace]

So I think most of them aren't going to lose anything. It's going to be great. It's going to be great. Nobody thinks that's the case, that it's, quote, going to be great. Now, those voters were so done with him, they filed out while he was still speaking. But there's more. Like in the state of Alabama where voters chose Donald Trump by more than 30 points in November, you want to hear what they had to say at Republican Congressman Barry Morris town hall when asked about Donald Trump's tariff policy.

[Susan Collins]

So right now what we just saw.

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

In a report is that we haven't.

[Susan Collins]

Seen inflation at all. Y' all saw reports that was the question.

[Nicole Wallace]

That wasn't a question. So if there was inflation, you would see the tariff. Who pays the tariff? Who pays the tariffs? Who pays the tariffs? Who pays the tariff? Who pays the tariff? That's a question Caroline Levitt struggles with as well. Joining our coverage, Puck News chief political columnist and MSNBC national affairs analyst John Heilman's back. Also joining us, Democratic strategist professor at Columbia University, MSNBC political analyst Basil Smaels. Here, Heilman, you cannot manufacture, first of all, you can't take town halls and say that it's any more than a moment in time. But you also cannot manufacture discontent from like, one corner of the country literally to the other over the same issues. Medicaid cuts, the big not so beautiful bill, tariffs and the prices going up. And a lot of voters acutely aware of things that I would put in the autocracy bucket. The lack of due process for people being deported, the lack of Congress doing their job. People have this maybe misplace faith in checks and balances that have completely collapsed. Your thoughts on what you're hearing from actual voters?

[Susan Collins]

Well, first of all, hey, Nicole. And second of all, you know that, that last chant, that last chant, which was who pays the tariffs? I can't help it myself, but I'm reminded of sitting at that table with.

[Nicole Wallace]

You.

[Susan Collins]

In 2017 or 2018, I'd say 2018 now. So seven years ago, and sitting around the table asking the question when Trump kept talking about how the Mexico, how Mexico was going to pay to build the wall, I remember sitting there with you and another guest saying, where are the pesos? Where are the pens?

[Nicole Wallace]

It was Steve Schmidt. I remember.

[Susan Collins]

It's the same.

[Nicole Wallace]

So I remember. We'll pull the tape. But Steve Schmidt talked for so long that you and I were Texas about how we could have gone to get coffee, but he landed on this incredible refrain, there are no pesos. Mexico is not.

[Susan Collins]

Where are the pesos.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Yes, yes. But it was a same liars.

[Susan Collins]

Yes. It was a cri de corps. And beyond the fact that there was a certain kind of harmony to that, that these two kind of things rhyme, who pays the tariffs? Where are the pesos? Same really. The same lie in some ways. Right. Because this is Trump basically saying in one case, you know, we're going to do this thing, that's my pet project. Someone else is going to pay the bill. In this case, you know, he's saying, we're going to do my pet project on the tariffs. But of course, the other countries are going to pay the tariffs, which of course we all know is not true. But the other reason why it's resonant for me is that at that moment, we were just about to head into the 2018 midterms. We were a little closer to the midterms then than we are now. But all of the stuff that Trump did in 2018 around, if you remember, he closed on the caravans, right? Fear mongering about the caravans that were coming across the border, it did no good for Republicans in the House of Representatives. It did no good. There was a wipeout election in 2018, Democratic wave. And I think this goes to your top point, right, which is, you know, as Matthew Dowd was saying the other day on the show we were on, you know, if you see anecdotal evidence, but you don't have data, you kind of discount the anecdotal until the data comes in. If you see data without the anecdotal evidence, you can't really measure the passion of it. You, you see that the people are against a certain thing, but there's no, we don't know how salient it is. You don't know how revved up people. People are. But when you see a combination of data that shows a thing consistently over time, and you see these kinds of things at town hall meetings consistently over time, where people are very fired up, very revved up, I mean, you could pick one town hall meeting and say, well, that was a bunch of Democratic plants. There probably have been a couple of town hall meetings that were mostly Democrats and not Republicans. But over time, when you see it over and over again all over the country on the same set of issues, that also shows up consistently in the polling, you have yourself a reality there. And I just, you know, history tells us these things happen. It happened in 2018. It happened to Barack Obama in 2010. This kind of thing. This kind of thing happens and it's happening again.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, history tells us all of that. But Trump also tells us that he can read the polls and the rooms may be better than the Republican members of Congress because there's no reason to change all the Republican maps, which is unpopular even among Republicans, other than reading the room and reading the polls. I want to show you the polls and more town hall sound. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll bring Basil in on that on the other side. Don't go anywhere. We showed you Maine, we showed you Alabama. Here's Oklahoma, a state that voted for Trump in 2024 by more than 34 points. Can you tell me what specific bills we've passed or worked on that would lower grocery prices?

[Dr. Ashish Jha]

Yeah, ma', am.

[Nicole Wallace]

You're talking about things relative to state.

[Susan Collins]

Level, and so you're mixing federal and state.

[Nicole Wallace]

And so what I'm saying to you.

[Susan Collins]

Is Oklahoma, if you want to have that conversation about grocery taxes, they've been having that conversation.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, but what I'm saying is. But you.

[Susan Collins]

But relative to constitutional authority, in the.

[Basil Smales]

Way that I have my staff analyze things, what we're allowed to do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Okay, what we're allowed to do is.

[Susan Collins]

It has to be under the framework we are given tax status. But tell me the federal tax right now on groceries.

[Nicole Wallace]

So what I'm saying is. State.

[Basil Smales]

You're talking about state. Who's next?

[Nicole Wallace]

Gee, Josh, next time you call your voter stupid, maybe you should ask Donald Trump that question and why he stood in front of melting groceries. Bedminster Basil. I've actually never seen that before. The call your voter stupid plan. We'll see if it works in the midterms.

[John Heilman]

Yeah, that. That was. That was fascinating because, you know, as a member, as an elected official, you don't make assumption, you should never make an assumption that the voter actually knows exactly what job you have and what that means to. In the difference between federal, state, and local. They come to you because they believe in you. They voted for you, they elected you. You have a job to represent them. So do that in the moment. That was a lot of conversation and a lot of words to basically say, you don't know what you're talking about. Go see somebody else. That's not how you. That's not how you maintain your leadership of a community. I'd say that. But what's interesting, and I sort of tie this to the segments you had earlier when you were talking about our autism. What I think we're experiencing and seeing is that voters are very aware that this big, ugly bill touches so many aspects of their lives that are not Democrat or Republican, that are not red state or blue state, that it affects them in very deep and personal ways, particularly when you talk about health care, that it affects their neighbor in very specific ways. And all they're seeing are these images of law enforcement who are masked with long guns on their street corners. And so what I think we're seeing and experiencing is not just. And I do want to put in a plug, that I think some of the Democratic talking points are seeping in, but it's also this, what I think is reaction to very simple politics here. You may have an issue with our immigration policy. But did you sign up for the eradication of due process in our country? You may have questions about health care and whether or not it's expensive, but the refrain from that question in Ohio was something we heard very similarly during the early debates about Obamacare. Are you taking away my documents? You know, now it's personal. It's not this existential threat. It's not this larger conversation about what could or should happen. It is deeply personal and affecting the lives of everyday Americans. Donald Trump knows this, which is why there's reporting in the Hill that says the Republicans may have a convention before the midterms because they know they're in trouble because of this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, it's also gaslighting. I mean, Donald Trump ran on the price of groceries, so don't stand there and tell your voter she's too stupid to ask about price on groceries. I want to ask both of you to stick around. You're going to do double duty through both hours. When we come back, another challenge to get another firing of what is supposed to be an independent voice within the administration. We'll bring you that story next.

[Kelly Ripa]

Hey there, it's Kelly Ripa. And if you've been listening to my podcast, we are knee deep in season three. And if you haven't heard it, it's time to get on board. After years of interviewing celebs on camera, I finally get to bring you the real conversations that take place when the cameras aren't rolling. Where else are you going to hear Michelle Obama talk about keeping her girls out of Page Six? Hilaria Baldwin's hilarious reaction to Alec running for office, or Jeremy Renner's lucid hallucinations about Jamie Foxx, nowhere else. It's raw, it's honest, and best of all, it's off camera. And believe me, that's where you get the good stuff. So download. Let's talk off camera with Kelly Ripa now. Wherever you get your podcasts need to.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook today sued Donald Trump over his attempts to fire her. It sets the stage for a landmark legal battle over the future of the independence of our country's central bank. Donald Trump accused Cook, who is the first black woman to serve on the Federal Reserve Board, of mortgage fraud. It's important to point out to everyone that that has become Donald Trump and his administration's favorite new charge or allegation to make about perceived political enemies. New York's Attorney General Letitia James and Democratic Senator Adam Schiff have both also been accused of the very same thing in recent months. Her lawsuit pushing back against Trump and pushes back against those allegations, calling them, quote, unsubstantiated and unproven, adding that the allegations, quote, cannot camouflage the president's real reason for attempting to remove Governor Cook. He disagrees with her policy decisions. An emergency hearing for that case is now scheduled for tomorrow morning. We'll stay on top of that story. Up next for all of us, another warning to Democrats about Donald Trump's future from California's Governor Gavin Newsom. We're bringing that story and much, much more when Deadline White House continues after a push break. Don't go anywhere.

[Rob Lowe]

Hey, everybody, it's Rob Lowe here. If you haven't heard, I have a podcast that's called Literally with Rob Lowe. And basically it's conversations I've had that really make you feel like you're pulling up a chair at an intimate dinner between myself and people that I admire, like Aaron Sorkin or Tiffany Haddish, Demi Moore, Chris Pratt, Michael J. Fox. There are new episodes out every Thursday, so subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts.