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Deadline: White House
“The latest Epstein files release”
00:41:46
Nicolle Wallace covers the latest Epstein files release, where more powerful people across industries are named in email correspondences with Jeffrey Epstein.
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- [00:01]
Dani Bensky
Department of Rejected Dreams if you had a dream rejected IKEA can make it possible.
- [00:05]
Nicole Wallace
So I always dreamed of having a man cave, but the wife doesn't like it. What if I called it a woman cave?
- [00:12]
Tara Palmieri
Okay, so let's not do that. But add some relaxing lighting and a comfy IKEA hofburg ottoman. And now it's a cozy retreat.
- [00:18]
Dani Bensky
Nice.
- [00:19]
Nicole Wallace
A cozy retreat, man.
- [00:20]
Dani Bensky
Cozy retreat, sir. Okay, find your big dreams, small dreams.
- [00:25]
Tara Palmieri
And cozy retreat dreams in store or online@IKEA US. Dream the possibilities. Shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing. You're managing all the things, so why waste time sending important documents the old fashioned way? Mail and ship when you want, how you want with stamps.com print postage on demand 247 and schedule pickups from your office or home. Save up to 90% with automated rate shopping. That's why over 1 million small businesses trust stamps.com go to stamps.com and use code podcast to try stamps.com risk free for 60 days.
- [01:04]
Dani Bensky
It's just incredibly disheartening that they didn't. They really failed all of the survivors on this. After so many months of saying we're being so meticulous about this and we care so deeply about this. So I think that that's where the slap in the face really hurts.
- [01:21]
Lisa Rubin
Hi again, everybody. It's now five o' clock in New York. According to Donald Trump's Justice Department, case closed, case is over in terms of their handling of the release of the Epstein files. But more importantly, according to Epstein and Maxwell survivors, the process has been a slap in the face. Over a month after the legally required deadline for DOJ to release the files in their entirety, the Department of Justice released a massive trove of 3 million documents. To call the release sloppy and haphazard is about the nicest thing we can say about it. According to my colleague Lisa Rubin, at least 40 known or suspected survivors names were revealed in the files produced Friday. Not just their names, for lots of them, their addresses, their phone numbers. New York Times is reporting that the Justice Department published dozens of unredacted nude photos showing young women and possibly teenagers, underage girls. In a joint statement, 18 survivors slammed the government's handling of their abuse, writing this quote, this latest release of Jeffrey Epstein files is being sold as transparency, but what it actually does is expose survivors. Once again, survivors are having their names and identifying information exposed, while the men who abused us remain hidden and protected. The Justice Department cannot claim it has finished releasing files until every legally required document is released and every abuser and enabler is fully exposed. This is not over. We will not stop until the truth is fully revealed and every perpetrator is finally held accountable. This afternoon, the federal judge who presided over Epstein's criminal case scheduled a hearing, it's on Wednesday to address the Justice Department's redaction failures. In terms of what is new in this release, our reporters are continuing to comb through the millions of files along with journalists from NBC, cnbc, the Associated Press and cbs. The New York Times reports this about Donald Trump's frequent appearance in the files. Quote, Using a proprietary search tool, the New York Times identified more than 5,300 files containing more than 38,000 references to Trump, his wife, his Mar a Lago club in Florida, and other related words and phrases in the latest batch of emails, government files, videos and other records released by the Justice Department. Previous installments of the Epstein files, which the department released late last year, included another 130 files with Trump related references. None of those files include any direct communication between Trump and Epstein. Besides Trump, there are a number of other powerful men mentioned in these newly released documents. Elon Musk is one of them. He said in 2019 that he never took Epstein up on invitations to his island. It was revealed that he had exchanged multiple emails with the sex trafficker trying coordinate a visit. Elon Musk writing in one of those emails, quote, what day night will be the wildest party on your island? End quote. Former Prince Andrew is also seen in a brand new photo on all fours along with an unidentified woman. Sorry to anyone seeing this. Co owner of the New York giant Steve Tisch shows up hundreds of times, mostly in emails where Epstein proposes women for Tish to meet to send the statement. They did not take Jeffrey Epstein up on any of those invitations. Brett Ratner, the director of the newly released Melania do we call it a documentary? Documentary is pictured alongside Jeffrey Epstein in one of the documents. There he is, Donald Trump's Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnick, who said in a televised interview just a few months ago that he resolved long ago never to be in the same room as Epstein, said his dining room was weird, said they cut ties. It's revealed in new documents that he had arranged a private lunch with Epstein and his family on Jeffrey Epstein's island. And by the fact that all those guys are in the files doesn't mean that they committed crimes or at least crimes that could be adjudicated or proven. Doesn't mean that they engaged in wrongdoing. It does speak to all the powerful and rich people and all the People that happen to be very, very close to Donald Trump, all of their presence in these files, when it comes to the idea that anyone would have had an incentive for them to stay quiet, some of what's been released answers some of those questions. Now, when it comes to any potential consequences for the new revelations in this big drop of files, here's what the country's deputy attorney general, Todd Blanch, who visited Ghislaine Maxwell in prison, had to say.
- [06:22]
Nicole Wallace
There's a lot of correspondence. There's a lot of emails, There's a lot of photographs. There's a lot of horrible photographs that appear to be taken by Mr. Epstein or people around him. But that doesn't allow us necessarily to prosecute somebody.
- [06:39]
Lisa Rubin
Okay? So that's hardly comforting to survivors of Epstein's abuse who've been steadfast in their calls for accountability and transparency for everyone involved in the heinous crimes carried out against them. That's where we start the hour with our senior legal reporter, Lisa Rubin. Dani Bensky's back with us. You saw her at the top of the hour. She is one of the Epstein survivors who's been talking about it, bravely sharing her story, advocating for herself and the other survivors and for transparency from the Trump administration. Also joining us, Tara Palmieri. She writes the red letter on Substack. She's hosted two acclaimed podcast series on the Epstein case. They are called Jeffrey Epstein and Power the Maxwells. Let me start with you, if you're ready. You ready? Yeah. How you doing?
- [07:27]
Dani Bensky
I'm okay. I mean, you know, we talked a little bit before we started that on Saturday. I just felt so broken. I felt like I couldn't get out of bed. I really had a moment where it's like, what is this fight for if we're just exposing people? And, you know, we worked so hard, so many of us worked so hard to speak to congressional leaders, to talk to senators, to talk to anybody we possibly knew had any power to say, we, we want this done the right way. We want to see it all. We need to see it all. But we want survivors to be protected. And we've just heard from the beginning. Even when I was at the House Oversight Committee, Mike Johnson came in and shook our hand and looked us dead in the eye and said, we're all on the same side of transparency. We all just want justice and we want to protect the survivors. That is our first goal. Comer said the same thing. And those are just to name a couple of people. Right? But to then have this come out and I'm looking through the files and I'm seeing my name all over the place. And the redactions don't even make any sense. I almost felt like if it was like a page where nothing was redacted, then it would make me feel maybe even a little bit better. But instead, it's literally like my full name there, my address, everything. And then Danny, which is my nickname, of course, is redacted. So there's just no rhyme or reason to any of the redactions. But my heart breaks for our Jane Doe sisters. I came across a blacked out picture of myself. You know, when we as survivors look at these images, people are like, oh, it's redacted. It's not harmful. When you look at the border, you know exactly what that picture is. You know exactly where you are. And so for me, that was a redacted photo. However, there are others that. The New York Times just came out with that article that said that there were all these nude photos. That is your government that is exposing victims to that degree. So it just. It's so devastating and heartbreaking that the government, the people, the Department of Justice. Right, Justice. Like that. This is what they're willing to do to citizens. You know, abuse survivors make up quite a big population, and it is about survivors. We don't want this to become a chilling effect where survivors feel like they can't come forward. And those in power will always be able to pull the strings. And that's. It's hard right now to feel any other way.
- [10:03]
Lisa Rubin
Have you been given any explanation for why you're. I mean, it's your cell phone number, your address, your work?
- [10:09]
Dani Bensky
No, nothing. Nothing. And, you know, we had written letters to Todd Blanche. Well, one of the survivors that I know wrote a letter to Todd Blanche. I've been saying in every interview that we would love to talk to Goj. We've been asking and requesting through all the nonprofit organizations we know, and we've never had interaction with them. And I think that that has been a big misstep here because even in the labeling of all of these files, they're labeled wrong. You know, and a lot of nobody would know that unless they lived through it. And so we could have been a real asset here. And instead it's just been like, survivors asked for this. Here you are. And it's like, well, we didn't ask for this. Right? This is not correct. So, you know, at this point.
- [10:56]
Lisa Rubin
You.
- [10:56]
Dani Bensky
Know, it's really hard to know where to go from here because we also. The fight for transparency has to continue. And so to pull everything back. Now, of course, we want survivors to be redacted, but this is the way to get the people that we were trying. The perpetrators. Right. And I think about Virginia so much, and I think about her fight, and I have said this from the beginning, where it feels like she clawed her way through to create a tunnel that we push the boulder through now. And it's like she named 40 people. Like, she named them. And she was so brave to do that. And it just feels like in her memory, like, we. We need to make sure that people are held to account. And it just feels like at every turn, it's just a game. And it's not a game for us. It's our lives.
- [11:45]
Lisa Rubin
What do you feel safe?
- [11:48]
Dani Bensky
Not at the moment. Yeah. It's a really hard question to answer. I think I'm so angry at this point that it doesn't matter. And that's, you know, my sadness and I felt so all that shame that I felt from such a young age really came back while I was looking through this. And it's to be expected a little bit, right? Because I knew that, like, there would be redacted things that I would see that would trigger your emotions, but not to this degree. With my name out there and, you know, Jane does that, I know, exposed, it's just absolutely egregious and appalling. But moving through that, there's like, I couldn't get out of bed for a day. And then after that, the rage, the anger is like. And honestly, listening to Virginia's family, to sky and Amanda, we were all on a zoom call together. Just a call just to check in with each other. And listening to Amanda speak, I was like, yeah, we gotta fight. We have to. This is right. Like, we are in this together. Yes. And so I do think, like, that's the difference, is that we do have each other now, and that changed the world in September. And I think as we move through these files, we get really stuck in our own stories. But we have to remember that we are a collective and we are really strong together.
- [12:59]
Lisa Rubin
Tara, I'm dying to hear what you think of what's been released, but really, I think Danny gave us a new sort of place in on this. What they've done to the survivors is. I mean, insult to injury doesn't begin to capture it.
- [13:16]
Tara Palmieri
It's a re traumatization. I mean, that's what I'm hearing from Danny. That's what I hear from survivors that have reached out to me and the feeling is that you can't put that genie back in the bottle. What they've done. I mean, as Brad Edwards said, you know, every hour counts. Take down these Epstein files until you've done a proper job of removing the names of these victims. And you're destroying people's lives. And there's a, like I've said before, there's a reason that there's only a few dozen of them like Danny who have come forward and spoken about it, even though the FBI has said there's a thousand victims. It's because this is a really difficult crime for the victims to deal with, to process. And everyone handles it in a different way. A lot of the women, too, that have come forward, they were older too. They weren't really young. Some of them were young, but it's often the really young ones that have a really hard time. And so the older ones, they speak for them. And I just think, you know, this was handled so haphazardly. And then you see the lack of interest in pursuing any further investigation into the many men that were named, the many men that could have tips that came in. There could have been a follow up investigation. I'm not reading. I know there are 3 million files, but I haven't seen any follow up true follow up investigations in these files that show contact with, you know, a suspect's lawyer in the very least, or contact with the suspect to ask them, you know, we received this tip, even President Trump himself. Why did the FBI not pick up the phone once if they were receiving all of these calls and reach out and ask what this was about? I mean, it's, it's really shocking. And then you see Jay Clayton and is the U.S. attorney at the Southern District of New York, which has been really holding onto most of the documents and you know, how closely connected he is with Mark Rowan, the head of Apollo, who's very, I'm sorry, Leon Black, who hicked him to succeed him at Apollo. And Leon Black is so prominently featured in the files. And there's, you know, an FBI presentation that lays out one of the, you know, victims claims against Leon Black. Now, he has denied these claims. He settled with one accuser and he had to step down from his role. But when he stepped down from his role, he picked the guy who was leading the Epstein investigation to succeed him. This is the power, this is the network that has kept this story dead and the survivors suffocated for decades, since 1996 because Epstein and all of his friends had had so many connections at the Highest level of power from administration to administration. And you're even seeing it now after his death. And it keeps his. His co conspirators, it keeps the perpetrators safe.
- [16:14]
Lisa Rubin
You're cracking away at it with sort of old fashioned journalism.
- [16:18]
Unnamed Reporter
Tell me what you're reporting on the call on Friday. I started going through the files and I started doing it by methodically searching for the names of the people that I knew to be victims. People like Danny and many of the others, survivors who have been most prominent. And that's when I found the driver's license of a particular survivor with her full photograph, unredacted her name. And to Danny's point about sort of these nonsensical redactions, her address was redacted, but I could see her name and her photograph. And I picked up the phone and I called her her lawyer, and I said, these are some things that I found about her. I also found handwritten notes from her FBI interview in the summer of 2021, when she was preparing to testify at Ghislaine Maxwell's trial. This was a trial she ended up being one of four testifying survivors at. There's an interview that always comes before a victim or cooperator testifies at a trial where you're basically expected to come clean. You tell the prosecutors and the FBI everything about your life history, including anything that you're embarrassed of or you might.
- [17:22]
Lisa Rubin
Have done wrong, that you can survive cross. Right?
- [17:24]
Unnamed Reporter
Correct. So that you can survive a withering cross examination, which is what they expected Glenn Maxwell's lawyers would do to her.
- [17:30]
Lisa Rubin
Which is sick on its own level, but it's the system. Correct.
- [17:34]
Unnamed Reporter
But those notes were presented in such an unredacted form that I knew unmistakably who they were about. And so I called the lawyer, and the lawyer called this particular survivor who said she was floored. And she took the time to speak with me over the weekend. Her name is Anoushka DiGiorgio. She testified as Kate at Ghislaine Maxwell's criminal trial. And Anoushka wrote a blistering email to prosecutors at the Southern District of New York, demanding that they explain to her how this could have happened, how they had the audacity to re traumatize her, particularly when she, like so many of the other survivors, has worked so hard to put this in her past. Now, Anoushka is a mental health professional now, which is ironic, but she is also particularly composed at discussing this and what she has gone through. And one of the things she said was, look, you didn't just expose me to trauma. You exposed me to legal and professional harm because my clients or my patients know. Know these things about me. I have said things in my FBI interviews that expose other people. She talked about her romantic dating history, for example. She talked about her sobriety coach. These are things that victims and survivors expected would always be concealed from the public, and they didn't get an opportunity to preview it. There are survivors who said to the Southern District or to Main justice, why don't you give me my file first before you let the rest of the world see it? Could you give me my file? And not only did they get no. They got no answer at all. And she still hasn't gotten an answer to this letter she sent to sdny. It's infuriating.
- [19:12]
Lisa Rubin
Nicole, did you get your file before it was.
- [19:13]
Dani Bensky
No, no, I found it in a. It was 245 pages of other 302s. So I was just combing through it, and I had done it by searching my name, which originally I was like, oh, nothing will come up because it's all redacted.
- [19:26]
Lisa Rubin
Not true.
- [19:28]
Dani Bensky
And so. And actually, what's weird about that is I searched my name and there were only like two or three files. But then as I combed, then I'm finding more, and my name is not redacted. And so the search isn't even working correctly. It's just a nightmare. It is a nightmare.
- [19:47]
Unnamed Reporter
Nicole, can I add something to what Dani just said? I found Dani's 302 over the weekend, too, and I found it in a stretch of 21 pages across which the personal information of 13 different women was splashed all in a row. It was stunning to see. Now, the Department of Justice says they've now taken those things down. But I will tell you, before I came on air today, I was looking at a document that another reporter here had found, and I saw again, an unredacted picture with a name and last initial of a survivor witness. The audacity of these folks to tell us on one hand that it took them six extra weeks because they were being so careful to. To ensure the privacy and safety of the victims. And yet to do this like this is just astonishing.
- [20:37]
Dani Bensky
Well, and it's so haphazard, I think something that I was looking for because, you know, in 2008, I was subpoenaed and I was terrified. I did not. I was not one of those people knocking down the door to the FBI, saying, please take my statement. I was like a very scared 20 year old. I was 17 when my abuse happened, you know, at 20 years old, I wasn't in a place I was trying to distance myself as far as as humanly possible from this horrific experience that had happened to me. And so what I gave them needed to be clarified quite a bit. There were things that I really needed to sit with that I hadn't really thought about until I went through a lot of therapy and understood the situation a little bit better about the manipulation about, you know, my mom's brain tumor has been something that's been reported on. And, you know, even just that interaction of bringing Jeffrey the scans and his response of being more abusive after that, that was something that I really needed to think and come to terms with. So my 2008 is very like word vomity of a scared 20 year old. So I really felt strongly that I needed to clarify in 2018, 2018 or 2019, rather, I'm so sorry, 2019, the FBI came to my door and they sat down in my apartment with me, and I finally felt like I was able to tell more of the truth than I ever had before. And I cannot find anything reported on for that. I found a manila envelope with chicken scratch handwriting that think is something about my case and something about me. But there is no, like, anything that would sort of give me, like, I don't want to say the credibility because it's not the right word.
- [22:13]
Lisa Rubin
Like the peace of mind of knowing that.
- [22:15]
Dani Bensky
That my story was recorded. Right? Yeah, exactly. And so I think, you know, it does feel strategic and very deliberate that what they're pushing out there with our names for anybody that's been public.
- [22:28]
Lisa Rubin
All right, no one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, the backlash among folks that have been largely quiet for the last year, folks in entertainment and sports, cultural backlash to Trump and ICE and his assault on immigrants, protesters and ordinary citizens on the streets of our cities. We heard one of the sharpest and most really fiercest rebukes to ICE last night from worldwide music superstar Bad Bunny at the Grammys as the voices criticizing Donald Trump and ICE are growing louder by the day. Also ahead for us, brand new reporting in the New York Times and how the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard arranged a phone call between Donald Trump and a group of FBI agents one day after those agents searched the election headquarters in Fulton County, Georgia. It comes as the Wall Street Journal is reporting about the existence of a mysterious whistleblower report about Tulsi Gabbard that has been stalled for months. Death and White House continues after a Quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [23:28]
Nicole Wallace
Subscribe to Ms. NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNOW's original podcasts including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite Ms. Now shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series including Rachel Maddow Presents Burn Order. Subscribe to Ms. NOW Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [24:01]
Lisa Rubin
We're back with everyone. So Tara, I want to ask you, you know, take me to school. How do you cover what has been released? I think there's a real caution which is right, Right on Earth 1, we are careful but I think that the perpetrators are benefiting from all the small c conservative approach to what's been released. And just tell me what to you is most interesting and what you're pursuing in terms of what new information has been released.
- [24:30]
Tara Palmieri
Yeah, I mean right now it's hard to say because there's a lot of information in there, there are a lot of tips, but there's not a lot of follow up. Right. And so I think as reporters we, we can look at it, we can take that information in and then try to try to corroborate it, find sourcing, speak to survivors, witnesses, people who are in Epstein's orbit to, to find out if it's true or not. I mean, that's the job of the Justice Department, you would hope. But as we've seen, they haven't done that. It's also just interesting for me and a lot of other reporters who cover politics and power to just see the web of power around Epstein and how far his network extended even to, you know, the White House counsel Kathy Rummler getting a Birkin bag from him and advising him on how to count on how to kill. ABC's interview with Virginia Giuffre, I mean, that just is a very clear example of why this was able to stay secret for so long. It was proximity to, to power and it was power across multiple administrations. And you see it even in the financial elites, the legal elites. It's just so many people that were in his network that were friends with him after the happy to go to his home after he was a convicted sex offender. And it explains why these people continue to have a sort of immunity after as well.
- [26:04]
Lisa Rubin
What to you explains Trump's reluctance to dump all the files?
- [26:13]
Tara Palmieri
I mean, there's not a lot about some of his relationships with Russia. There's not a lot about his really with Prince Andrew. There's that picture, but there's not much else there. There's not much about his relationship with Saudi Arabia. Anyone who's been covering this story knows that Epstein had a very vast international network and they might be protecting that or withholding it for national security purposes, as was designated inside of this Epstein files transparency Act. But, you know, this is the Department of Justice led by President Trump, withholding documents at its own discretion, which is, you know, why I brought up the Clayton example of a, you know, something appears that just doesn't look right to have, you know, a person who worked at an institute, was selected by the head of an institution who clearly is very closely implicated with Jeffrey Epstein, you know, to be so closely aligned with him. And I just think that there's just. There's just so many obvious conflicts in this story, and I don't think anyone's taking it seriously enough. And I think there's a lot. There's a lot more to learn and to know, but you'd have to actually put the resources into doing a true investigation and take the depositions of the survivors seriously. I don't know why they're not taking a serious, you know, they're not. They're not seen as credible evidence in this case. It's just the word of a woman is essentially what I take away from it. That's the way they see it. Oh, this woman says this, Whatever.
- [27:44]
Lisa Rubin
Yeah. Well, we take it seriously and we'll continue to stay on top of this. Thank you.
- [27:50]
Dani Bensky
Thank you for being here.
- [27:50]
Lisa Rubin
Thank you for continuing to come here. Thank you. And I really. I think that when the history is written of this time, your courage, I think, made other people feel brave in moments when this fight came to them in other forms. And I think everything that people find a way to do that they think is beyond their capacity has its roots in the displays of courage of you and all the survivors who went public. And I know that behind all of you who went public are many more who didn't.
- [28:20]
Dani Bensky
Well, that's. I think the push, right, is that we know that for every one of us that is standing up here, we actually represent thousand, but not just Epstein and Maxwell survivors. I have survivors that write to me all the time, and I love it. Getting these messages in my inbox, and it's like, thank you. I finally came forward to my family. I finally came forward. And that's what we need is just to keep shining the light in the darkest places. So I just appreciate that everybody's that's what fuels us. So I just hope that everybody can continue to stand together and push it forward.
- [28:54]
Lisa Rubin
Well, we got you. Thank you. Thank you. Lisa Rubin, thank you for your reporting on this. Tara, thank you. Can't do these conversations without you. Thank you. When we come back, how icons in the world of sports and entertainment are using their very, very, very powerful platforms finally to stand up to Donald Trump and his authoritarian practices. We'll get to that after a very short break.
- [29:18]
Nicole Wallace
Ms. Now presents the the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with former Attorney General Eric Holder.
- [29:29]
Lisa Rubin
The only thing that is going to save this nation, that's going to save.
- [29:32]
Nicole Wallace
This democracy, is the American people. An engaged, focused, committed American people. The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to Ms. Now premium on Apple Podcast.
- [29:51]
Lisa Rubin
The news is about as heavy as it's been in modern times, right? But on the bright side, it doesn't take quite as much squinting as it did even a few weeks ago to recognize the ways in which American culture is now pushing back against Donald Trump and ICE and that mass deportation agenda. At last night's Grammys, for instance, a number of high profile superstars, artists including Justin Bieber, Joni Mitchell, picked up a trend set at the Golden Globes, pins that read ICE out during the ceremony. Pop music sensation and album of the year winner, Bad Bunny, proudly Puerto Rican, used his platform to deliver a message. And he was not the only one to do so.
- [30:31]
Nicole Wallace
Before I say thanks to God, I'm gonna say eyes out. We're not savage. We're not animals. We're not aliens. We are humans and we are Americans.
- [30:52]
Tara Palmieri
I honestly don't feel like I need.
- [30:55]
Unnamed Reporter
To say anything but that no one is illegal on stolen land.
- [31:02]
Tara Palmieri
We can go on. We need each other.
- [31:04]
Dani Bensky
We need to trust each other and trust ourselves.
- [31:06]
Tara Palmieri
Trust your heart. We're not governed by the government.
- [31:07]
Lisa Rubin
We're governed by God.
- [31:08]
Dani Bensky
And I thank you so much.
- [31:12]
Lisa Rubin
Mr. Bad Bunny. His next stop is the super bowl next weekend. We'll see what, if anything, he says or does during his performance during the halftime show in the face of a boycott from some on the maga. Right. Joining our coverage, Protect democracy Executive director Ian Bassin. I challenged your optimism a few weeks back, but either you were seeing something that I hadn't seen or felt yet or the fact that this is at least a fight now on which way we go as a country. Am I right to feel reassured by that?
- [31:45]
Nicole Wallace
Absolutely. I think early last Year, Trump had the advantage of fear and momentum. He was flooding the zone with his shock and awe approach. He was whisking people off the streets and sending them to gulags in Central America in defiance of court orders. He projected the aura of inevitability and invincibility. And that is one of the authoritarians best friends, the sense that everyone needs to be afraid and hide. And what has happened over the last year, really led by the American people, not by its institutions, not by its leaders. The American people is. People have decided not to be afraid, and they have called out the emperor for having no clothes and not having the totality of control that he tried to assert, and that is now leading people, as you saw at the Grammys, who have positions of influence and platforms to step up and be courageous. And bravo to all of them for doing so. It is a turning point that people can sense the fact that freedom and democracy will ultimately prevail. And once they feel that way, it's very hard for the autocrat to get back that firm grip that he had at the beginning.
- [32:50]
Lisa Rubin
Is that because it's sort of a mirage, like what Tim Snyder writes about on tyranny. It's like the obeying in advance is a reaction to the mirage of power.
- [33:01]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. You know, Nicolae Ceausescu, the dictator who ruled Romania for 25 years, managed to maintain a firm grip on power with the use of fear and the stage management of total control. Right. The Communist Party at that time managed to convince everybody that there was nothing they could do, and they might as well submit to it. Mark Carney, in his incredible remarks at Davos, reminded Vaslav Havel's famous allegory of the greengrocer who just kept putting the same sign in his window that testified to lies every day, because that was just what the autocrats had convinced everyone to do. And Ceausescu ultimately falls when there start to be some little bit of uprising out around the country, and the Communist Party tries to manufacture another display of total control and dominance in the main square in the capital. And during that incredibly famous televised speech, Ceausescu is telling everyone, no, no, no, you all be part of the party and listen. And someone heckles someone in the crowd, a brave person just heckles. And Shashesku's not used to being heckled, because that's a piercing of the veil of invincibility. And in this incredibly televised moment, Ceausescu is flummoxed and unsure what to do. His wife comes out and whispers something in his ear. He sort of shoos her away. All of a sudden, it looks like he doesn't have total control. And when that happens, a second person echoes and then a third and ceausesc three days later. And so, yes, very much. It is this air of invincibility that is like a balloon. And once it gets popped, it's hard for it to come back together again.
- [34:43]
Lisa Rubin
Yeah. I mean, and I guess the parallel, because there's no way Trump knows that story, is that the comedians draw his ire more than any world leader. Right. He's enraged by Trevor Noah's quips at the Grammys and has, like, no reaction. Seems unfazed by the rebukes from some of our oldest and closest allies.
- [35:03]
Nicole Wallace
Well, because he really, I mean, Trump's a very talented politician and a very talented demagogue, and he understands how the current dynamics work, which is we have some incredibly, you know, sort of committed political activists and sides in this country. And I want to, you know, frankly credit all of them for people who are engaged in current affairs, myself included. Yourself included. You know, very plugged into current events, have a strong sense of the right way to govern a country and want to do our duties as participants in self governing are very, very activ. Understands that if he can play those two sides against each other, he can alienate most of the rest of Americans who good, patriotic people, but who really are going about their days trying to put food on the table and not paying attention to every twist and turn of our national politics. But anything that can jump that fence and actually engage those Americans who are not the most politically active has the power to tilt the direction of our politics in our country. And Trump understands that the people have the power to do that are entertainers, our comedians are singers at the Grammys. And once they get engaged, then all of a sudden the apolitical become political. And I think the power of what the artist did last night is they really threaten Trump's hold on things because they can engage people who aren't following along every day to become political when the moment and the morality call for it.
- [36:25]
Lisa Rubin
Right. And to say nothing of all the athletes at wnba, NBA, NFL and otherwise. All right, you're sticking around. When we come back together, we'll tell you about some really stunning new reporting about a phone call arranged by the country's Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, between Donald Trump and the very FBI agents who searched the election headquarters in Fulton County, Georgia. It comes as we're learning about a whistleblower report about Tulsi Gabbard. It's so secret, it's been stalled for eight months. We'll bring you those two pieces of reporting after a short break. New York Times is out with some stunning new reporting about the role that the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard had in the FBI's search of an election center in Fulton County, Georgia. According to that Time story, Gabbard met with some of the same FBI agents, members of the bureau's field office in Atlanta, Georgia, which is conducting the election inquiry. Three people with knowledge of the meeting said that's highly unusual on its own. But then the Times adds this, quote, Ms. Gabbard used her cell phone to call Donald Trump, who did not initially pick up but called back shortly after. People said the president addressed the agents on speakerphone, asking them questions, as well as praising and thanking them for their work on the inquiry. According to three people with knowledge of the discussion. Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche was pressed by CNN's Dana Bash over Donald Trump's involvement in the raid. Watch the president told reporters, quote, they got into the votes. You're going to see some interesting things happening. What interesting things is he talking about and why was he so involved in.
- [38:06]
Unnamed Reporter
An FBI and DOJ raid?
- [38:10]
Lisa Rubin
Well, just because he said that doesn't.
- [38:12]
Nicole Wallace
Mean that he's involved. I don't believe he was involved. This is a criminal grand jury investigation and I can't comment on it beyond.
- [38:19]
Lisa Rubin
What you just said. He said interesting things are happening. So it sounds like he was briefed on it.
- [38:27]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I don't know. I'm not around when the president's briefed or not briefed. What I said is that this is a criminal investigation. So it's a tightly held.
- [38:37]
Lisa Rubin
We'Re at the Todd Blanche calls Donald Trump a liar part of the Trump story. It's not happening in a vacuum, though. This story is breaking into public view as the Wall Street Journal is reporting that there is a classified whistleblower complaint alleging wrongdoing by Tulsi Gabbard and that it is stalled within the agency. According to the Wall Street Journal, that complaint is so sensitive, so highly classified, that it has sparked months of wrangling over how to share it with Congress, according to U.S. officials and others familiar with the matter. We're back with Ian. I mean, Ian, it feels unfair to put someone who worked in a counsel's office in a normal White House in a position of speaking to those two stories. But for mall I spoke to a handful of former intelligence officials and former national Security folks. And they really, they said two things. One, the bar is so high for any of this to burst into public view because they've grabbed all the levers of power so completely. And two, both Blanche distancing himself from something that Trump already outed, that he'd been briefed on this raid, and Tulsi Gabbard being there really is more than sort of the top of the iceberg revealed.
- [39:44]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, the challenge of it bursting into public view, and I do not envy you or your producers having to figure out how to deal with this, is just the sheer volume of what would be presidency ending scandals in any other era that happened within the span of 72 hours. So this weekend, we not only had to contend with the two stories you've just alluded to, but an incredible report in the Wall Street Journal that members of the UAE royal family were paying enormous sums of money to buy into Trump's Liberty Financial in advance of them receiving an incredible win in getting advanced AI technology check from the administration. We had the president suing the IRS to recover $10 billion, I think he's claiming. We had the rollout of the Melania documentary, which generated a curiously large payment from Amazon and MGM to the First Family. We had a pitch from members of the Department of Justice for people who would be loyal to the Trump agenda to apply to be U.S. attorneys by directs messaging them on, I think Twitter or X. And then we had the Epstein files come out. And we still have two killings by the federal government in Minneapolis and a showdown between federal and state forces there. So how is anything going to break through in that media environment, which is something that Trump understands. But here's, I think, the key about what's going on in Georgia. We know that the one time that Trump lost an election and was supposed to walk away from power gracefully, he refused and tried to use every lever at his disposal to overturn the will of the voters. We know that autocrats around the world try to do everything they can to tilt elections in their favor. We have midterm elections coming up this year, and Trump is already trying to do everything he can to gain unfair advantage in those elections. And the predicate, the predicate for doing that is convincing people that our elections somehow are rife with fraud without any evidence to prove that to be the case, or that there's foreign interference in our elections or something to justify people around the country in our federalized election system to help Donald Trump Trump tilt the elections. And so what we should expect is a whole bunch of claims to continue to come out of the White House that there's something untoward going on with our elections, notwithstanding the fact that these have been investigated over and over again and that just turns out not to be the case. So we should expect those claims to come out. That's what's going on in Georgia. We should expect more outlandish claims in the days to come. But that's what's afoot. He's trying to create a predicate in order to, as he said today, try to nationalize elections and take greater control over them.
- [42:24]
Lisa Rubin
Yeah, all of that. And we need more of this. And thank you for spending all this time with us today. We're grateful. Thank you. When we come back, another show of solidarity and protest against Donald Trump, this time thousands of miles from American shores. We'll show it to you on the other side of a short break. Don't go anywhere. Enormous, peaceful crowds braving frigid temperatures, all in the mission of protesting Donald Trump. Does it sound familiar? Well, it isn't just happening here in the United States. It is now a reality in Denmark as well. A vast assembly of that country's war veterans and their families marched the streets of Copenhagen on Saturday. It was a show of force intended to illustrate the outrage felt by so many in that country in the aftermath of Donald Trump's incorrect and highly offensive assertion that our NATO allies stayed a little off the front lines. That's what he said they did in Afghanistan. We'll note that Denmark lost more soldiers in that war per capita than the United States did. It is another example of international displays of disgust and indignation as Donald Trump gets his fair share of it here at home as well. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We're grateful.
- [43:47]
Nicole Wallace
Ms. NOW presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week, she sits down with former Attorney General Eric Holder.
- [43:57]
Lisa Rubin
The only thing that is going to save this nation, that's going to save.
- [44:00]
Nicole Wallace
This democracy, is the American people, an engaged, focused, committed American people. The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to Ms. NOW premium on Apple Podcasts.