“The latest ICE target: School bus stops”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – “The Latest ICE Target: School Bus Stops”

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Date: February 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode confronts the deeply disturbing consequences of an ICE operation near a school bus stop in Lindenwald, New Jersey, where children ran from federal agents in terror. Host Nicolle Wallace explores the community's response, the broader backlash across the U.S. against ICE’s increasingly aggressive tactics under the Trump administration, and the trauma inflicted on children. The episode also honors the legacy of civil rights leader Reverend Jesse Jackson (who passed away earlier that day) and considers the ongoing fights for civil rights, honest history, DEI initiatives, and the power of grassroots activism and economic boycotts.

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Key Segments and Insights

1. ICE Operation: Children in Fear

[00:55–03:52]

• Incident Description:

  • ICE agents conducted an enforcement action near a Lindenwald, NJ, bus stop; children, some as young as ten, ran in terror, yelling that ICE was present.
  • School district officials decried the “significant fear and confusion” caused, emphasizing the trauma endured.

• Host Reaction:

  • “It’s really hard to watch, right?... As Americans right now to kids. It’s... being done in all our names... Clearly traumatized by what they’re experiencing. In this instance, while they were waiting for the school bus.” — Nicolle Wallace (03:31)

• Broader Context:

  • The incident sparked nationwide outrage and local protest, reflecting growing opposition to Trump-era ICE tactics.

2. Interview: Joseph Zobel, School Counselor and First-Time Protester

[03:52–12:36]

Zobel’s Experience and Motivation

[04:43–05:44]

• “It was the clip... of the kids running. And it just bothered me... This is my backyard. ...I’m allowed to protest... Just stand with these people.” — Joseph Zobel (05:10)
• “I was crying that day, and clearly now millions of people have seen me cry.” (05:35)

On Patriotism, Trauma, and Change

[05:54–07:50]

• “I can’t imagine that kids would be waiting at a school bus stop... and are running in fear from our government while waiting for a school bus... This tactic... is not working.” (05:54)
• Zobel highlights the severity of trauma: “The trauma has got to be so extreme for this next generation... I want to do anything in my power to help them.” (07:08)

Power of Community Protest

[07:50–09:06]

• Zobel, not political by his own admission, describes the protest: “It was so beautiful and nice... This was so nice. And there was music and there was dancing... This is the America that I know, that everyone comes together and we’re not divided.” (08:19)

• He explains his shift from feeling helpless post-9/11 to feeling empowered to act:

  • “When 911 happened, I was in seventh grade and I felt helpless... I became a firefighter... Now, I feel helpless again. So... I can do something.” (09:15)

On Preventing Division

[10:05–11:05]

• “I would do whatever needed of me. I just don’t want to divide people more... I want people to come together... we can all agree that this is wrong.” (10:25)

Does Political Debate Even Apply?

[11:05–11:19]

• “Kids should not [be targeted]. That should not be a question I’m being asked.” (11:13)
• Zobel pushes for unity beyond partisanship: “Why don’t we make this an American issue?” (11:32)

Closing Thoughts (from host and guest)

• “Politics might need you right now... I think our politics might just need you.” — Nicolle Wallace (12:00)
• “God bless America, right? We can do this. We can do this.” — Joseph Zobel (12:27)

3. Panel Discussion: Civil Rights, Children, and Public Backlash

[12:37–19:03]

Claire McCaskill

• “It’s an important reminder that... it’s bat bleep crazy that kids are being swept up in this sort of aggressive deportation campaign.” (13:43)

Maya Wiley

• “Whether it’s the child victims in the Epstein files or... children running from the school bus stop, there are ways to impact a border security issue that are not cruel and not heartless. ...This is just a policy run amok.” (13:43)
• Reflects on Jesse Jackson and being moved by Zobel:
  • “You have to remain hopeful because we are better than this. And I think you’re seeing them retreat... because the people did.” (14:32)

Reverend Al Sharpton

• “What Claire points out is very important because... we are on the precipice of losing [civil rights achievements]... You can’t mourn [Jackson] on the one side and then bury the policies.” (15:28)
• On division and the loss of Jackson:
  • “It would hurt the country if we don’t seize this moment and say ...we are not going to let this go backwards.” (16:24)
• On resisting Trump’s exclusionary agenda:
  • “Now we have Donald Trump, who’s trying to push out the rainbow. And that is not something any of us should allow.” (17:27)
• “It’s a minority of Americans who think this is okay... The more people come out... it makes a difference.” (17:55)

4. Honoring Reverend Jesse Jackson; The Power of One

[20:21–24:15]

• Jackson’s archived words:

  • “If an issue is morally right, it will eventually be political. It may be political and never be right... If we are principled first, our politics will fall in place.” — Rev. Jesse Jackson (21:01)

• Host pays tribute to Jackson’s role in expanding civil rights and the importance of each vote:

  • “A messenger for justice and hope and finding common ground among all Americans.” — Nicolle Wallace (21:14)

• Sharpton and other panelists reflect on Jackson’s mentorship and steadfast push for action over apathy. The point: activism and change often come from those not waiting for popularity or approval but acting from principle. (22:46–26:01)

5. History, DEI, Backlash, and Boycotts

ICE, History, and Federal Policy
[31:32–33:22]

• A federal judge blocks the Trump administration from removing a slavery exhibit at a historic Philadelphia site—a judicial defense of truthful history.
• Quote from Judge Roof: “As if the Ministry of Truth in George Orwell’s ‘1984’ now existed... It does not.” (32:10)

Corporate America and DEI
[33:22–40:52]

• Strong condemnation for companies rolling back DEI in response to political pressure:
• Maya Wiley:
  • “The idea that we are making the concept of diversity, equity, and inclusion a bad thing is bizarre... History is not going to judge them kindly.” (35:35)
• Rev. Sharpton:
  • “They are running. ...Trump and his regime... using the federal government... to interrupt what you’re doing. ...It can continue to be eroded.” (39:37)
• Panelists note the hypocrisy: DEI made companies stronger and more profitable, yet is now under assault by political and economic pressure.
• “The smear is... suggesting those hired under these policies were not qualified—when... they were supremely qualified, in most instances, more qualified.” — Nicolle Wallace (35:35)

Economic Resistance: Boycotts
[41:38–45:27]

• Guest expert Scott Galloway argues for a strategic boycott of major tech companies (the "Unsubscribe" campaign) as a way to send powerful market signals against anti-democratic practices.
• Maya Wiley:
  • “I think he gets it... You vote first... you protest, and you use the power of your purchasing to let your voice be known... Find out which companies have folded and which haven’t.” (43:04)
• Rev. Sharpton on effectiveness:
  • “[Boycotts] must have defined results so that you can show it works... Not just because I’m angry. They don’t care if you’re angry. They care about their margin of profit.” (44:36, 45:13)
• Overall message: The episode concludes on a note of agency, unity, and hope for collective action—whether by protest, voting, or economic leverage.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “I watched 4th and 5th grade kids run away from our own government. I never want to see that again... That’s not Camden County. It’s not New Jersey. It’s not the United States.”
  — Joseph Zobel ([03:17])

• “I can’t imagine that kids would be waiting at a school bus stop... and are running in fear from our government while waiting for a school bus... We need to change what we're doing. This tactic... is not working.”
  — Joseph Zobel ([05:54])

• “Kids should not [be targeted]. That should not be a question I’m being asked.”
  — Joseph Zobel ([11:13])

• “What is beautiful is born out of what is horrible. And what is so humbling is that the best lesson I got on today’s news was from my guest who just said that shouldn’t even be a question.”
  — Claire McCaskill ([12:37])

• “If an issue is morally right, it will eventually be political. ...If we are principled first, our politics will fall in place.”
  — Rev. Jesse Jackson ([21:01])

• “You can’t mourn him on the one side and then bury the policies.”
  — Rev. Al Sharpton ([16:24])

• “It’s bat bleep crazy that kids are being swept up in this sort of aggressive deportation campaign.”
  — Claire McCaskill ([13:43])

• “The idea that we are making the concept of diversity, equity, and inclusion a bad thing is bizarre.”
  — Maya Wiley ([35:35])

• “Boycotts are a tool in the toolbox. We can vote, we can send messages to Congress, and we can boycott companies that don’t do the right thing. And they all matter.”
  — Rev. Al Sharpton ([45:17])

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Significant Timestamps

• [00:55] – Description of ICE incident
• [03:07] – Joseph Zobel’s protest speech
• [05:10] – Zobel’s motivation: seeing kids run in fear
• [07:08] – Discussion on trauma in school children
• [08:19] – Emotional impact of protest experience
• [11:13] – Should kids be “off limits” for ICE
• [13:43] – Claire McCaskill: children and brutal deportation
• [14:32] – Maya Wiley on hope and grassroots power
• [15:28] – Al Sharpton on legacy of Jesse Jackson and lost civil rights ground
• [21:01] – Jesse Jackson: principle before politics
• [31:32] – Judge Roof’s rebuke of Trump’s “history whitewashing”
• [35:35] – Wiley’s critique of corporate retreat on DEI
• [41:38] – Scott Galloway’s unsubscribe/boycott argument
• [44:36] – Al Sharpton: criteria for an effective boycott

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Tone and Language

The episode is emotionally charged, urgent, and deeply patriotic—marked by empathy, frustration, and a call to unity. The discussion balances difficult truths about trauma and division with hope: showing how individual and collective action has been, and remains, powerful. Guests speak in accessible, heartfelt, and direct language, often voicing distress, disbelief, and at times humor amidst serious topics.

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Conclusion

“Deadline: White House” delivers a poignant, wide-ranging exploration of the human cost and societal backlash against ICE operations near children, the resilience of protest and community, and the echoes of civil rights struggles past and present. The voices of frontline witnesses, panelists, and the wisdom of Jesse Jackson coalesce into a forceful reminder: America’s identity is not fixed by policy but forged daily by the courage, action, and moral clarity of its people.

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Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

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[News Anchor]

The big story in action news is the fear and chaos as an apparent.

[Joseph Zobel]

ICE operation unfolded near a South Jersey school bus stop.

[Interviewer / Host]

Fourth and fifth grade students running from the presence of ICE agents.

[Maya Wiley]

Children scattered in different directions.

[Interviewer / Host]

One child yelling in Spanish, ice is there. The kids are still wearing their backpacks.

[Commercial Narrator]

It set off what school district officials called, quote, significant fear and confusion for kids in the area.

[Interviewer / Host]

I just said, like, I need to run. They could maybe, like come after us.

[News Anchor]

Trying to find our parents.

[Interviewer / Host]

I was gagging.

[News Anchor]

I almost threw up.

[Interviewer / Host]

I feel like they're just gonna come out of nowhere and take my parents. Hi again, everyone. It's really hard to watch, right? That's what's being done in all of our names as Americans right now to kids. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. The massive nationwide backlash against the brutal and cruel tactics being waged by ICE against kids. It's a direct result of people witnessing with their own eyes and many times taking out a phone. Incidents like this. Little, little kids. Children sent running in fear and clearly traumatized by what they're experiencing. In this instance, while they were waiting for the school bus. People witnessing that are saying, enough. That little boy we just showed you, his name is Dylan. He's one of the kids who were caught on camera running after ICE agents were spotted near his bus stop on Thursday morning. It happened in Lindenwald, New Jersey. The Department of Homeland Security says the agents were theirs and they were engaged in a, quote, targeted enforcement action, end quote. They were there to arrest someone they said had a criminal record. And they left without completing the arrest. They say if you're feeling heartbroken and furious about the collateral damage, if you will terrified kids, know that you're not alone. The very next day, members of the community came out in force to protest the presence of ice, terrifying kids near their kids bus stop. Take a listen to Joseph Zobel, a school counselor and coach.

[Joseph Zobel]

I've never protested before in my entire life, but.

[Maya Wiley]

Sorry.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

It's all right.

[Joseph Zobel]

I watched 4th and 5th grade kids run away from our own government. I never want to see that again. And I'm not going to stand by and watch my neighbors run away scared. That's not Camden County. It's not New Jersey. It's not the United States. I love the United States. I love New Jersey and I love Camden County. I love Leninwald, too. But that's not. That's not what, you know, we are. It's not who we are. And I decided I'm gonna come out here, stay with you guys and be part of this, because I never want to see a child ever run away from our own government ever again. Sorry about getting emotional.

[Interviewer / Host]

As we've been reporting here over the last few days, weeks and months, poll after poll after poll shows that more and more Americans witness ICE's tactics, that more and more and more Americans oppose ICE and Trump and the mass deportation policies. A new YouGov poll finds just 34% of all Americans approve of Donald Trump's mass deportation raids in major cities. Even in red states like Texas and Missouri, a protest movement has risen in opposition to ice. Protesters have been showing up to try to block the construction of new ICE detention centers in their communities. That's happening all over the country. The backlash against Donald Trump and his administration's mass deportation policies shows no signs of stopping. It's where we start today with school counselor and coach, the aforementioned Joseph Sobel. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Joseph Zobel]

Absolutely. Thank you. Nice to be here.

[Interviewer / Host]

Your clip went so viral. Do you know how many people have seen it?

[Joseph Zobel]

I've heard that there's like millions. That's crazy to me.

[Interviewer / Host]

Millions with an S. I think close to 3 million people have seen it. That's a lot. That's a lot. That's more than we'll see, you hear. I mean, that's a whole lot of people. Just tell me first what you saw. What you saw that made you want to be out there.

[Joseph Zobel]

Absolutely. It actually was the clip that you had shown previously of the kids running. And it just bothered me, you know, and I was just like, you know, I've been seeing throughout the nation that things have just been so bad and deteriorating so quickly that I just looked and I said, this is right here. This is Camden County. This is my backyard. You know, I said, let me. Something came inside me said, like, go up there and do something. I'm allowed to protest. They're going to protest. Let me get out there and just, just stand with these people. Because that was just one of the worst things I think I've ever seen. I was crying that day, and clearly now millions of people have seen me cry.

[Interviewer / Host]

What is it about? I mean, what you said is so profound. Right? You don't want to live in a country where kids are running from their own government. Say more.

[Joseph Zobel]

Yeah, never. I mean, listen, since I remember, I've always been in the caring field. Right? So I'm a counselor, but I was a firefighter before that. I'm always a big fan of helping people. And to, Just to see that children are running from our own government. These guys are wearing like that. That's not America. That's not what I remember. I love this country. I'm very patriotic. I'm. I just, I can't imagine that kids would be waiting at a school bus stop to go to school to get their education and are running in fear from our government while waiting for a school bus. That's. We need to change what we're doing. We need to pivot. Like, I don't know how we can look at that as a nation and be like, okay, we're doing the right thing. No, we're not doing the right thing. We need to change what we're doing. This tactic or what we are doing is not working.

[Interviewer / Host]

You work with kids. What is it? My worry is that we're traumatizing a generation in the same way that the active shooter drills have traumatized generations. That from very, very young kids learn how to hunger in place. Which is a totally different drill than the fire drill where you're getting out of Dodge. I mean, just talk about the trauma that you saw these kids experience. Yeah.

[Joseph Zobel]

One of my main things that I had noticed was that it looked like two siblings might have been running together, like holding hands. And I just, again, that just hit me so deeply and they're screaming. And then in a follow up interview, they said the kids were covering their ears and covering their heads and crying inside the school bus because that bus driver probably went back around to get the kids to just try to get them to school. I mean, I can't imagine being terrified and crying on my way to school. Not talking about a school bully, talking about, I'm scared of our own government. In order to get there, yes. The trauma has got to be so extreme for this next generation. And I want to do anything in my power to help them. And I'll do what I need to do to help this next generation. And that's horrible.

[Interviewer / Host]

A lot of people are finding some comfort in this moment by action. And I saw you there in the video with your American flag at the protest. How did it feel to be part of the protest?

[Joseph Zobel]

And it's funny you say that because, like, that's actually what made me emotional. So I had never been to a protest before. It's funny. A lot of people. I'm not a very big political person, to be honest with you. I don't. I don't get involved in politics very often. I'm, you know, more of, you know, what are the Eagles or Phillies doing type of a guy. But it's.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's.

[Joseph Zobel]

When I got there, you should have seen the positivity. It was so beautiful and nice because I constantly see terrible things that happen in protests. But this was so nice. And there was music and there was dancing and all these wonderful people coming together and hugging and holding each other. And I was like, this is the America that I know, that everyone comes together and we're not divided. And then the people were honking horns and, you know, yes, there was some negativity. And that's fine. That's. We are a diverse nation. But right now, we are so divided and so angry with one another. But this. This was really beautiful and so sweet. And I think that's why I was crying. Cause I'm like, this is the America that I know. And that's what I wanna see more of. It was really. It really was so nice to be out there.

[Interviewer / Host]

Were you aware when you went out to protest that two people protesting ICE policies in Minneapolis had been killed?

[Joseph Zobel]

Yes, I was aware of that. And that's, you know, when I saw what's happening in Indiana. Excuse me, in Minneapolis, as well as what was happening here. Like, again, it's that when I. When 911 happened, I was in seventh grade and I felt helpless in the back of my classroom. So I became a firefighter because I knew I never wanted to feel helpless again. Seeing what's happening on the news now, I feel helpless again. So when I saw that this was happening right here in Lindenwald, I was like, I can do something. I don't have to be helpless. I Can stand up. And that's, I think, why I wanted to get out there and do this. Because, you know, there's just what's happening throughout the nation. Minneapolis. It's horrible. I keep using the word horrible. It is horrible. We are divided. It's very, very, very disheartening. But I had at least the opportunity here to pop out and just say, hey, this is not right. Cause it's not.

[Interviewer / Host]

And do you feel like being part of the protest tied you into your community? More like. Cause my sense from the people I've talked to is. Is that they get as much out of the protests as they feel like they're giving to their friends and neighbors. Is it something you feel like you might do again?

[Joseph Zobel]

Definitely feel it's funny. I went to Haddon Heights High School, so I had some of my lawnside friends that are. That's a very diversified community messaged me for the first time since, like, 2007, like, we're so proud of you. Your mother would be so proud of you. It's been such a wonderful, wonderful thing. I would. If I can help, I would do whatever needed of me. I just don't want to divide people more. I don't want this video. I mean, I've gotten some negativity on this video as well. I don't want division. I want people to come together. If somebody says that I have the ability to make people come together and look at something like a situation, we can all agree that this is wrong. I will help, and I will do whatever I have to do.

[Interviewer / Host]

Do you think we should be able to agree that kids should be out of bounds for whatever they said? Targeted enforcement actions.

[Joseph Zobel]

Right. It's. I feel like that's not even. That should not be a question I'm being asked. Kids should not know.

[Interviewer / Host]

Like, I mean, what are we doing here?

[Joseph Zobel]

There's a little boy, I think it was in Minneapolis, like, crying on a bus stop.

[Interviewer / Host]

No.

[Joseph Zobel]

Like, guys, we need to wake up. This is not right. This is. This is not who we are. I mean, if you want to knock on someone's door or, you know, I don't know enough about, but, geez Louise, you can't. You can't take kids. You can't terrify kids. I just. We're adults. This is. We. We need to step up as human beings. I don't care if you're Republican or Democrat. It doesn't have to be a Democrat or Republican issue. Why don't we make this an American issue? That we all come together and say, okay, there's certain things that we can agree, and leaving our children alone should be one of them.

[Interviewer / Host]

Joseph, I believe you that you don't pay a lot of attention to politics, but I just think that politics might need you right now. So I would encourage you to leave all options on the table, from your profound humanity, letting 911 shape your choices to your real rebuttal that that should even be a question. I think our politics might just need you. We'll continue to stay in touch with you. Joseph Zobel, thank you for spending time with us today. I'll give you the last word.

[Joseph Zobel]

Thank you. Oh, thank you. And just, hey, God bless America, right? We can do this. We can do this.

[Interviewer / Host]

We can do this. Thank you so much for joining us today.

[Joseph Zobel]

Bye.

[News Anchor]

Bye.

[Interviewer / Host]

I want to bring in our panel. Former Assistant U.S. attorney, President of the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, Maya Wiley's here. Also joining us, host of Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton's here. Also joining us, political analyst, the former senator, Claire McCaskill is here. Claire, what is horrible is beautiful. What is beautiful is born out of what is horrible. And what is so humbling is that the best lesson I got on today's news was from my guests who just said that shouldn't even be a question. But I guess if you're down in there with your nose against the glass of the Trump policies, if you're me, you think maybe ask a question. Should we just agree that children should be off limits? I think the hundreds of children being held at the Dilley Detention center in Texas means that the policy isn't that and kids are on the table. And so, you know, we do ask questions. But it's an important reminder that to the American people, it's bat bleep crazy that kids are being swept up in this sort of aggressive deportation campaign.

[Maya Wiley]

Yeah. And it wouldn't be hard for them to go out of their way to protect children in this regard. So whether it's the child victims in the Epstein files or whether it's the children running from the school bus stop, there are ways to impact a border security issue that are not cruel and that are not heartless. I mean, they're sending people that are not supposed to be sent back to their home countries. They're sending them to Cameroon, for gosh sakes. People that have no connection to Cameroon. This is just a policy run amok. And I think Americans have figured it out. Polling shows that. But I gotta tell you, Nicole, I mean, you know me. I Can tear up pretty darn easy. I mean, a really heartfelt commercial can get me. But today, between watching the clips of Jesse Jackson and him having the kids recite I Am Somebody and then that counselor in New Jersey saying, you know, we can do this. God bless America, we can do this. You know, you have to remain hopeful because we are better than this. And I think you're seeing them retreat out of Minneapolis not because some senator or governor called for them to get out, but because the people did. People from the grassroots up. And that's what Jesse Jackson understood so well. And that's what clearly this counselor in New Jersey understands, that there comes a time that you have to speak up.

[Interviewer / Host]

We've talked about. First of all, I know how close you are to the family and to Jesse Jackson, and I'm so sorry for your loss.

[News Anchor]

Thank you.

[Interviewer / Host]

But we've talked about him. We've talked about him this month.

[News Anchor]

Yeah, we talked about him often, you and I and certainly Maya and I. And I think that what Claire points out is very important because one of the things that Reverend Jackson's passing should do is show us what's at risk and what we are on the precipice of losing. Because his generation and the generation before him, Dr. King and all laid out laws and laid out policies that we took for granted that are now being taken back from us. So it's not enough to just mourn Jesse if we're not going to protect Voting Rights act and Civil Rights act and the diversity things that he fought for. Rainbow wasn't a gimmick. It was a way of really uniting people. And I think that as much as I, you know, I talked with his family today. They prayed with them before they took him out. And as much as it hurts his family, it hurts all of us. There was his extended family. It would hurt the country if we don't seize this moment and say, wait a minute, we were better than this. People like Jesse Jackson brought us there and we are not going to let this go backwards to a pre Dr. King time or pre time of Mary McLeod Bethune. And that's what they're advocating. Everything that we are giving all this credit to Reverend Jackson for today that he deserved and more is on the verge of being taken away. The Supreme Court is looking at Section 2 of the Voting Rights act right now. We are seeing corporations saying, I'm against dei, diversity, equity and inclusion. Well, that was Operation Breadbasket to include people. So you can't mourn him on the one side and then bury the policies.

[Interviewer / Host]

On the other side talk much more about that. But I want to give you a word now that we brought it here.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Well, I'm just grateful for Reverend Sharpton's word and would add that one of the things that Reverend Jesse Jackson said to us as a nation is that we are a patchwork quilt. And that was the quilt he saw as the fabric of the nation when he created Rainbow Push. Now we have Donald Trump, who's trying to push out the rainbow. And that is not something any of us should allow.

[Interviewer / Host]

Are you heartened by the. By the resistance to that?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Completely. I mean, because what Joseph represents is exactly what we're seeing, which is so many Americans saying, this isn't who we are supposed to be. And it's really a minority of Americans who think this is okay to be. And the more people come out and recognize that they have power, that it makes a difference when they do what the civil rights movement always showed us, which was to be peaceful and to demonstrate and to pray, protest, and say, not in our name, not to any of our people. That is when we all rise.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah. All right. We're just getting started. We'll have much more on honoring and remembering the legacy of Reverend Jesse Jackson, a civil rights icon who stood at the forefront of the fight for democracy and voting rights. Fights that, as Arab and Maya have said continue to this hour. And later in the broadcast, the Trump administration has been stopped from removing an exhibit discussing slavery at a site where George Washington and John Adams lived. A judge delivers a stunning rebuke. We'll read it to you. The then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Joseph Zobel]

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[Reverend Al Sharpton]

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[Reverend Jesse Jackson (archive voice)]

I'm often asked Jesse, why do you take on these tough issues? They are not very political. We can't win that way. If an issue is morally right, it will eventually be political. It may be political and never be right. Fannie Lou Hamer didn't have the most votes in Atlantic City. Well, her principals have out lasted every delegate who voted to lock her out. Rosa Parks did not have the most votes, but she was morally right. Dr. Kingdom had the most votes about the Vietnam War, but he was morally right. If we are principled first, our politics will fall in place.

[Interviewer / Host]

There are so many examples that we could play. We don't have that much time on the air. But what made the Reverend Jesse Jackson one of the nation's greatest moral voices, as our friend the Rep calls him, were speeches like that. Reverend Jackson died this morning after a long illness. He was 84 years old. A protege of Martin Luther King Jr. Who became a towering figure in the civil rights movement. A messenger for justice and hope and finding common ground among all Americans. What he called the Rainbow Coalition. Jackson was a Baptist minister and a two time presidential candidate. He often used his campaign speeches to challenge inequality. He mobilized millions of Americans to register to vote and he underscored the importance of every vote. It's an important message for all of us today. Amid a growing war on voting rights, here's what Reverend Jackson said back in 2000.

[Reverend Jesse Jackson (archive voice)]

One vote decided that America would speak English rather than German. In 1776, one vote kept Aaron Burr, later charged with treason, from becoming a president. One vote made Texas part of the United States of America. In 1845. One vote changed France from a monarchy to to a republic. One vote has the power to change our course.

[Interviewer / Host]

We're back with Maya the Ravel and Claire. I'm sure that you could have helped us put together seven more hours of.

[News Anchor]

Moments like that, seven more days. I mean, and what a lot of people don't understand is the real passion that you see was just how he felt. I mean he would in private. Those of us, you know, I grew up When I was 13, I was his youth director for his New York chapter. And all of my life he never felt I was older than 13. I mean he would sit down, says, no, what is this issue? You're dealing with Al in New York. And then when I went national, is it? Right? I mean, so what he would put on stage is how he felt. And if he felt people, even in our own communities, were operating in a way that was not unifying and not moral and ethical, he would say, we can't identify with that. Which side are you on? He says, you can't play on two teams and expect to win. You got to stick with your team. And I know Maya knows this. It was not popular in the 70s and 80s in urban America. To be in the King movement, and I'm in high school with everybody else, was far too other areas. But if you believe in it, Jesse would say to me, then you stand with it whether it's popular or not. And there were periods of time in his career he was not popular in the black community as he was. Dr. King went through that. And Jesse would say, that's the test is can you take it when they're not all applauding? And he passed that test, and he helped change the country, because he did.

[Interviewer / Host]

What did he think about this moment?

[News Anchor]

I think that he was very concerned. He took very seriously that he was part of those that came out of the King movement. And he was very concerned that what Dr. King and what Dr. Abernathy and others had lived and died for was at risk. And he did not see the kind of mobilization efforts that he wanted to see. And I think that he would always challenge us. I never forget, he said to me about five years ago, why aren't y' all doing something about. It was an issue. And I said, well, we're meeting and we're talking. He said, do you understand? Dr. King broke down Jim Crow and never had a cell phone. He said, y' all got all of this stuff y' all do, half of which I don't know how to use. And y' all can't get a rally together to do something. I mean, he never would not challenge us. It was out of love, but it was stern, and it is what helped make the country work better. When he was able to get the Democratic Party to go with proportional representation, I didn't understand what that meant. But as it was applied, if you were running two candidates running in a primary, the rules at that time was, if I got two more votes than you, I got all of the delegates. He changed it. Where if you got three delegates less than me, but you still kept your delegates, that is the model Clinton and Obama used to get to the nomination. These were fundamental things that he would say to me, Al, you grew up a boy preacher. It's not just performance. You need content. And he would make me study that. And I just thank God that he was in my life all my life.

[Interviewer / Host]

When you think about what's working, it is the people showing up. Right. Like the big turn in the Trump story has been cities where people have stood up with their bodies peacefully to protest.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Yeah. And you know, one of the things about Reverend Jesse Jackson is he never stopped protesting. I mean, in addition to constantly pushing. Never stopped. Didn't. Kept coming to Selma for. To commemorate. Not just to commemorate Bloody Sunday, but to remind us of our obligations and what we had to keep doing to organize people and to ensure that they understood. Exactly like that clip you shared. It matters what they do. And every single person has power if they engage and do something. But I can't help but appreciate how difficult it is for us to lose Jesse Jackson under any circumstances. But it is particularly hard to lose him now because it is a time when our very history is being taken from us, when we are told that we should be able to racially profile people. I mean, this story that we are talking about, that ice showing up, chasing people and seeing young kids running away from them, people are afraid to go to schools now. I mean, these are all things that Jesse Jackson spent his life trying to prevent in order to perfect this union. And I think it's how we take his lesson now and remember what he and so many other civil rights leaders, the civil rights history they're working so hard to erase. Because as Carter G. Woodson said, the father of Black History Month said, the reason they want to tell you what to think think is to tell you how to act. And he was someone who would never allow anybody to tell him how to think, nor would he let anybody tell him how to act. And that included peaceful protest.

[Interviewer / Host]

Are you surprised that they're still so determined to erase our history and to erase black history?

[Maya Wiley]

Not at all.

[Interviewer / Host]

Because if you understand that they want to control how people act, you have to erase what they know.

[Commercial Narrator]

Exactly.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I mean, our history is so powerful. If you want people to feel beat down and if you want them to feel like it doesn't matter what they do, take away the history that showed them how they overcame slavery. Take away the history that shows how they actually got elected to office at the just after 1865 and helped create a public school system that didn't exist for white children, erase the history of Reverend Sharpton. I was at were at Claudette Colvin's memorial service here at Abyssinian Baptist Church last week. You have to Erase the history of a 15 year old black girl not afraid. Well, she was afraid, but still refused to give up her seat on a Montgomery bus. That got others organizing the Montgomery bus boycott that would start nine months later. You need a history lesson to remember what people actually got done under much harder circumstances.

[Interviewer / Host]

And that's the contagion of courage. And so if you cut it off at the source, people have less power.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And agency and pretend like you're not actually stealing from them, that you're not actually stealing something they fought for, like the right to vote. That you're not stealing what that vote brings. Like the ability to ensure that your kid gets Head Start programs in early childhood education. Or that your kid can get to see a doctor when they're sick because of Medicaid. Because instead of spending money on that, we're spending $170 billion to. To watch ICE agents chase school children, kill women and men because all they're doing is standing up for what they believe is right.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's insane. All right. No one's going anywhere. After the break, Mr. Amaya mentioned a judge invokes George Orwell's 1984 in a ruling ordering Donald Trump and his administration to restore an exhibit about slavery. We'll bring you that reporting next.

[Commercial Narrator]

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[Reverend Al Sharpton]

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[Interviewer / Host]

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[Interviewer / Host]

A federal judge in Pennsylvania has blocked Donald Trump and his administration's attempt to whitewash U.S. history. Last month, the National Park Service removed an exhibit at the Historic Philadelphia House. It's where George Washington lived. The exhibit detailed the lives of nine people who were enslaved by Washington. The removal by the Park Service was in response to an executive order from Donald Trump aimed at, quote, restoring truth and sanity to American history, end quote, at the nation's museums, parks, and landmarks. In response, the city of Philadelphia sued Donald Trump and his administration. And yesterday On President's Day, U.S. district Judge Cynthia Roof, who was appointed to the bench by President George W. Bush, issued a scathing rebuke of Donald Trump and his administration. That judge said this, quote, as if the Ministry of Truth in George Orwell's 1984 now existed, with its motto, ignorance is strength. This court is now asked to determine whether the federal government has the power it claims to dissemble and disassemble historical truthers when it has some domain over historical fact. It does not. End quote. We're back with Maya the Rebel and Claire. Claire. I love that idea of one vote and one person. And that's why we started this hour with one protester who describes himself as not political at all, but One protester who 3 million people have now watched wrapped in an American flag, protesting against this government. One rebuke by one federal judge appointed by one Republican president at a time. Just about every pillar that Donald Trump has tried to erect to erase history has been knocked down.

[Maya Wiley]

Yeah. And listen, the courts have in many ways stood up to the challenge of the Trump administration, and this is a good example. Unfortunately, all of the litigation doesn't move quickly, and it's very frustrating for people when they wake up every day and they see outrage after outrage after outrage, and they feel like nobody is doing anything. Well, keep in mind that what Reverend Jackson stood for and what that counselor in New Jersey stands for is that every person can make a difference. The collective power of Americans in rejecting what's going on is huge. Now, let me say one other thing. I think it's really important to also recognize that Jesse Jackson pushed corporate America. He pushed them hard on recognizing that the road to a boardroom was littered with minefields for people who did not have the advantages many of them had. And the idea that we are making the concept of diversity, equity, and inclusion a bad thing is bizarre. No one's saying you shouldn't hire competent, qualified people. No one's saying you should reject someone just because they're white. No one is saying that all Jesse Jackson stood for, and all the American dream stands for is that we give opportunities to people. And corporate America was not giving opportunities to people. And shame on all of these companies. I saw today that Goldman Sachs is doing it. All of them acting as if they have anything in their corporate bylaws that whispers of fairness and equity and inclusion and making an effort to make sure there's mentorships and there's ways that really smart, competent people can succeed regardless of their backgrounds. Shame on them. And history is not going to judge them kindly. They have power, too, and they have more power than an individual. But they're cowering under their desks like the cowards that they are to this administration. And they should all be ashamed of themselves.

[Interviewer / Host]

I'm so here for it when Claire calls Goldman Sachs cowards. Here's the smear in pulling back on dei. The smear is to suggest that those people hired under those policies were not qualified, when the fact is they were supremely qualified, in most instances, more qualified. The smear is in the pulling it away and pretending that it wasn't. I mean, did Goldman Sachs not thrive while its DEI practices were in place? I think the opposite is true. And what I think is amazing is that these companies quietly pulling back are some of the most successful ones. Are they saying that they only, I mean, to ruin the fabric of their own companies by pulling back policies that help them thrive is, to me, a smear on top of a smear.

[News Anchor]

And to really deny the history of why we even have to raise the issue because they use affirmative action, would take care of their friends and their friends, kids who may not be qualified, but you can have somebody overly qualified that doesn't get the opportunity unless they.

[Interviewer / Host]

Didn'T go to an Ivy League school or have four houses, one of them, that they took whatever caboodle out to the Hamptons. I mean, that's dei, right?

[News Anchor]

And what's the irony of that is that DEI started as a phrase after George Floyd. Those of us that was leading the George Floyd movement, we didn't come up with dei. They named it that. We said show equity. And they started making all these pledges that they wouldn't live up to and then acted like somebody was shaking them down. We would say, do what is fair. If you're in a City that's 40% black and brown and you've got a company that taxpayers are taking care of, your sanitation, your policing and all of that, and their kids can't get a shot when they are qualified, then we're taking care of you. You're not taking care of us because we are underwriting companies without tax dollars. What things that they enjoy when we don't have access to it. That's all we were saying. And that's what came out of Breadbasket with Reverend Jackson. That's what came out of other efforts. And they treat us like we're begging, when in fact we're just saying, stop the exploitation, the whole corporate posturing, as.

[Interviewer / Host]

Though because Trump is anti DA we're going to pull it back, is, to me, signaling the most weak and sort of moral free zone when these companies benefited by their own diversity programs.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Yes. And every study shows that, that companies do better when they actually treat their workforce fairly. They recognize who their consumer base is and that it's diverse, and they ensure that that diversity is seen throughout the company, including in the C suite. So I'm really grateful to Clare for calling that out. But I want to tell you how much worse it is. It's so much worse than this because we literally were having conversations sometimes with companies saying, well, what about civil rights? You know, when we're talking about diversity and equity, inclusion and also accessibility for people with disabilities who come in every race, that we are talking about programs created because of the Civil Rights act of 1964. So the very thing that we know that our civil rights history has brought to all of us, including if you were a white man and you were short and when we said police officers had to be over a certain height because they were discriminating against women, that's what the Civil Rights act of 1964 helped white men do. That every single thing we won in order to ensure that we weren't discriminated against as black people actually helped everybody. Yeah. And so. But now it's even hard to get companies to say that they support civil rights. That's the insidiousness of it. So to say that somehow diversity.

[Interviewer / Host]

What companies won't say this I can't say.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

But let me just say that I've heard.

[News Anchor]

She's right.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

They are running. But this is why when Donald Trump and his regime, because it is not administered. So I'm going to call it a regime, starts using the federal government, whether it's the FCC chair or whether it's the SEC or the federal. What the Department of Justice weaponizes it against companies or law firms or. Or colleges and universities or K through 12. They're using the power of government to say, do as we say or we will use the power of government to interrupt what you're doing. And that's what they should not capitulate to because it's not good for business, but it means that it can continue to be eroded.

[News Anchor]

But it goes back to your point, because I think you made a very good point. It's not like they went in with the data and said because you diversified, you are also losing money, you're undermining your shareholders.

[Interviewer / Host]

They all went, they all benefited.

[News Anchor]

So the reverse of that then becomes the question, well, if we do it well, then why are we going to withdraw it?

[Interviewer / Host]

And weaken our culture. And weaken our culture and our profits.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And Jamie Dimon said it out loud.

[Interviewer / Host]

Yeah, it's insane.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Good for my business.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's insane. He said to them alone. This week's podcast is with Scott Galloway about the power of boycotts. And on the other side of break, I want to ask you all where you come down on that. Also ahead for us, comedian Dave Chappelle paid his respects in a visit to a memorial dedicated to Alex Preddy in Minneapolis. We want to show that to you right there. We're back with our panel. Claire, you turned us in an interesting direction in your point about Gold Sachs. I want to show you what Scott Galloway said about something he's championing, which is a month long unsubscribe boycott campaign. Watch.

[News Anchor]

Just as dry, dry January gives you a chance to recalibrate or rethink your intake, your consumption of alcohol at a minimum.

[Joseph Zobel]

This is a chance to save some.

[News Anchor]

Money, recalibrate what you really need, what you don't and have maximum impact on big tech. Send a signal to a, the Trump administration and the markets that you are.

[Joseph Zobel]

Not down with what's going on for a minimal amount of disruption in your life.

[Interviewer / Host]

Claire I interviewed Scott this week for his Unsubscribe, Resist and Unsubscribe campaign. And it's a list of 10 companies. I think I've done three. It's hard, but he's right. It feels fantastic. My husband joked that we're going to be, you know, staring at each other over candlelight if I get through the whole list. But this idea of agency is, is sort of this, this thread I want to pull if everyone is afraid of being uncomfortable, which I think describes all of our corporate actors with not an example I can think of. If that were to infect the populace, we'd be on this path forever. But the people of Chicago, the people of la, the people of Minneapolis, big time people in faith communities, teachers, protesters, school counselors, the people have been willing to be uncomfortable and the people that canceled their Hulu and Disney accounts after Brendan Carr took Kimmel off the air. They were heard. Where do you come down on the boycott movement that Galloway's talking about?

[Maya Wiley]

Well, first of all, I think Scott Galloway should run for president. I think he gets it. I really do. I think he's very, very smart, and I think he gets it. I certainly urge people to listen to him and some of the things he's saying, not just about Big Tech and boycotting it, but also about men in America and young boys in America and what we've got to do on that front. But, yeah, I think it's really important that you vote first and foremost. You protest, and you use the power of your purchasing to let your voice be known. Do a little research, find out which companies have folded and which haven't. And, you know, pay attention to that stuff. It really does matter. And it's like cbs, you know, can the Ellison survive? You know, they have Oracle Think everywhere Oracle is. Can they survive with CBS tanking? Yeah, they probably can, but it'll be painful. And there's friends of mine that work at cbs. I don't mean them ill will, but you've got to vote with not just your ballot box. You've got to vote with what you do with your life. And that's what Scott Galloway is saying. A boycott of Big tech, especially the 10 companies he names for a period of time, would send a very clear message to corporate America that there's two sides of this coin. Yeah.

[Interviewer / Host]

I will give the Rev and Meyer the last word on the other side of a short break. Don't go anywhere. Rev, your point about boycotts is they have to yield results.

[News Anchor]

You're not having a boycott if you don't have results. One of the things I learned growing up in breadbasket under Reverend Jackson that Dr. King taught is you must have defined results so that you can show it works. But if you just keep boycotting to be boycotting, it becomes nebulous. People will lose faith. And, and, and you are not really making progress, so you must be able to spell it out. Look at the margin of profit of the company that you're hitting and say, can I stop more people than what they're gaining? And then force them to do these specific things. Not just because I'm angry. They don't care if you're angry. They care about their margin of profit.

[Interviewer / Host]

It's just amazing that this is the conversation in 2026.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

That's crazy. But boycotts are a tool in the toolbox. We can vote. We can send messages to Congress and we can boycott companies that don't do the right thing. And they all matter.

[News Anchor]

Right?

[Interviewer / Host]

Right. Claire, Maya, Rev, thank you all so much for spending the hour with me. We'll be right back. Our conversation with Scott Galloway by scanning the QR code on your screen right now. It's available right now on YouTube as well, or you can listen to it wherever you get your podcast. Remember to let me know what you think. That does it for us today. Thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

[Commercial Narrator]

Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail]. that's O-O-O.com.