← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“The meeting before the meeting”
01:25:45
Nicolle Wallace on today's Trump-Putin joint conference to discuss ending the war in Ukraine.
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- [00:01]
Tom Nichols
When work gets crazy, I like to.
- [00:03]
Nicole Wallace
Stop by the bar after have a few cold ones. I don't drink at all until 4 o'. Clock.
- [00:09]
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.
- [00:12]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink to Drink more@rethinktodrink.com.
- [00:29]
Nicole Wallace
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Nicole Wallace
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John Brennan
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- [01:04]
Nicole Wallace
Hi everyone. It's four o'clock in New York. It is noon in Anchorage, Alaska, where Donald Trump is right now meeting after cavorting and looking like he was having a grand old time with Russian President Vladimir Putin. He's meeting face to face behind closed doors. They hopped into the president's vehicle, referred to as the Beast together, which is rare, if not Unheard of, about 45 minutes ago, following an actual a literal red carpet welcome for an internationally indicted war criminal stepping foot onto American soil. It's a fact not lost on American citizens. Nearby, protests sprouted up all across Anchorage, Alaska. The White House today has done its best to lower expectations, casting doubt on the prospect of a breakthrough peace deal today between Russia and the country it invaded, our ally, Ukraine. In other words, this could just be the meeting before the meeting, as President Zelensky wasn't invited and didn't attend this afternoon's meeting in Alaska. In reality, today can best be described as a sequel to one of the most humiliating moments in the history of modern American diplomacy when Donald J. Trump, very publicly and seemingly proudly took the word of Vladimir Putin over the word and the work of his own intelligence community. But that was before. That was before Russia invaded our ally Ukraine. So I suppose one could hope against hope that Trump is taking this meeting a little more seriously. But the images don't suggest that's the case. Trump spent the flight to Alaska posting on social media about Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett. He accused Democrats of paying protesters in Washington, D.C. and he chatted it up with Fox News Watch.
- [02:52]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
We're going for a meeting with President Putin in Alaska. And I think it's going to work out very well. And if it doesn't, I'm going to head back home real fast. I mean, if it doesn't, you walk.
- [03:02]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I would walk there.
- [03:06]
Nicole Wallace
Okay, so he's going to walk if it doesn't go well. Walking out of the meeting would be the latest in a series of Trump threats having to do with Vladimir Putin, none of which he's followed through on. Remember, first he said he'd end the war in Ukraine in 24 hours. When that did not happen, he did his classic in two weeks routine, which never resulted in anything. Late last month, he issued a deadline of 10 or 12 days to cease hostilities. After that, he set a deadline for August 8th. Now today, which happens to be August 15th, we are where we are left to guess what is happening inside this high stakes meeting and any prospect of peace. It's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends in Anchorage, Alaska. International affiliate correspondent for the Associated Press Philip Crowther is here. Also with us, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, MSNBC international affairs analyst Ambassador Michael McFaul is here. Also joining us, retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is here as well. Ambassador McFaul, let me start with you and just what we could see with our own eyes, because I think both these men speak at least to their own publics about not believing what you see and hear. But these are two of the human beings most acutely aware of iconography and images and pictures. And this seems like a red carpet that was placed there on purpose. This seems like a choreographed arrival where Trump couldn't really defer enough to Vladimir Putin. He held on Air Force One to wait for him to land so they could have this moment together. This is more laughing and chuckling and touching than I think I've seen Trump engage in with any of our allies. And then he hops in the beast. And if not unheard of, it's exceedingly rare. Your thoughts about what we have seen with our own eyes.
- [05:04]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Extraordinary. To all those points, you just said this rarely happens to any leader in the world, our closest allies, let alone to a dictator, an imperialist, the first leader since Hitler and Stalin to have invaded countries in Europe and annexed them, the leader who's kidnapped 20,000 children, who terrorizes and kills Ukrainian civilians every single night. And yet this treatment is just extraordinary, especially when contrasted to that Oval Office visit that President Zelensky, the democratically elected leader of Ukraine, the way he was humiliated by President Trump Just several weeks ago. So I think it raises the ante. I think it raises the bar for President Trump. He gave Putin a meeting. He then the most powerful man on earth. And you know as well as I do, because we both worked at the White House, the biggest gift, one of the biggest currencies you have working for the United States of America is presidential time. He gave that to him. Then he added to it by bringing him to the United States of America. Now, all of this, including the Ride and the Beast, I don't know if Putin speaks much English, by the way, but that to me suggests Putin has gotten everything he needs. If he just goes home now, this is a great victory for him. The pressure, I think, is on President Trump to get something in return. I hope he has a strategy for something controversial, concrete, and not just another meeting. To me, that would be not equal to all of this pomp and circumstance that we've just been witnessing.
- [06:46]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, if you just take the side by side of the treatment of President Zelensky and this red carpet moment for Vladimir Putin, it seems very deliberate. I mean, it seems that Trump means exactly what it is he's saying to Zelensky. What does it Ukrainians do today?
- [07:05]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
You're exactly right. The Ukrainians have been dreading this. I talked to Ukrainians, officials and colleagues in the Parliament every day. They've been dreading this moment. I think they're going to watch this and be even more worried. And I want to emphasize that meeting at the Oval Office with Zelensky, that he was there to sign a deal with the United States of America, a minerals deal. It was a concrete achievement. And at the State Department, we call them deliverables. That's usually what presidential meetings are about. We don't know of any deliverables in this meeting. And what Ukrainians I talk to are really worried about are deliverables that will be for Putin but adversely affect their national security interests.
- [07:49]
Nicole Wallace
Ambassador McFaul, let me read to you from David Graham's piece in the Atlantic, just so that people understand just how much Putin has gained already. Before he walked into the car, before he walked into the beast, the presidential limo, before he walked into the meeting, this is all that Putin has already gained. Quote, for the Russian autocrat, this is a win in itself. Putin is a global pariah facing an international warrant for his arrest. But the United States is welcoming him to American soil for the first time since 2015. The US has never had much respect for international justice structures, but the Trump administration is particularly dismissive of them without stopping his aggression against Ukraine. And despite blowing through a series of deadlines, he gets a photo op with Trump. Putin today praised what he called quite energetic and sincere efforts toward peace by his American counterpart, which is more than anyone can say for Putin himself. Ambassador McFaul, just remind us what's happening every night in Ukraine, the nature of Russia's assault on Ukraine and on the civilian population.
- [08:57]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, first, let's start with what happened three and a half years ago when Putin launched his full scale invasion, his barbaric invasion of his peaceful neighbor. There was no threat there. For three and a half years, that war has been ongoing. And I want to point out President Trump keeps talking about Putin would have taken all of Ukraine if not for his presidency. That's just factually incorrect. The reason Putin hasn't taken all of Ukraine are because of Ukrainian warriors. Moreover, the bombing of civilians has increased during the Trump administration. I want to emphasize that he keeps talking about how things are better under him. That is just not empirically true. The bombing, the raids, every single night, the drones are multiples higher under President Trump than they were under President Biden. That is the reality, including just last night. So if Putin wanted to signal that he was serious about peace, he might have been able to not kill and not try to damage civilian targets last night. But he didn't do that. And I think people have to understand that Putin doesn't look at all of this stuff as a sign of strength. He looks at it as a sign of weakness. He had to do absolutely nothing to get this meeting. He didn't have to agree to anything. There are no preconditions. There's no negotiation ahead of time. That's usually how summits work, right? Usually, you know, low level, mid level people like myself at the National Security Council negotiate agreements and then you bring in the presidents to close the deal. Nothing's been agreed to here. And so Putin has gained everything and given nothing in return, at least so far. I want to remain optimistic. I wish the President well. We need an end to this barbaric war that Putin has launched. But the body language right now suggests to me that Putin is not going to be in a mood to do any major compromises.
- [10:59]
Nicole Wallace
General Hertling, I remember speaking to John Bolton, who I knew from a shared time in the Bush administration when Trump was meeting both with Kim Jong Un of North Korea and with Putin the first time. And I said, how can you work for someone meeting with these people? You spent a career in a lifetime at odds with and Trump, you Know again, at a bare minimum, is legitimizing these heinous, heinous, murderous villains on the world stage. And there was, I don't know, I don't want to, I don't want to suggest that John Bolton was embarrassed. He certainly wasn't. But he said, well, at least you have someone like me there. Love John Bolton or hate John Bolton, there's nobody like John Bolton around anymore. And I wonder what your national security concerns are about a moment like this.
- [11:57]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I'm just going to go back to the context of what we're looking at right now, Nicole. You know, you've already Described with Ambassador McFaul the warm welcome by the president waiting in his aircraft until Putin comes. The red carpet. The evidently, I couldn't see them. I saw a few, the honor guard that the president was saluting as they walked down the red carpet. As they do that, you'll see both of them look up in the sky. So I'm assuming there was some type of flyover. And then when they get to the end of that red carpet, they make a left into the beast with a bunch of F22s and F35s, our fifth generation fighters standing on the ramp right next to them. So you're giving the Russian dictator a really good look at one of our strategic bases, Elmer's, Dorff, Richardson. So even just the context of this, welcome. When I was commanding General Europe, Nicole, we used to monitor the body language, the atmospherics, the unexpected communications that we were representing. It's not just what you hear and what you say. It's also the tone of voice, the body rhythm, the mannerisms, the context, the way you say, speak, how you present and all of those things. I agree with Ambassador McFaul. We've already given a gift to Mr. Putin, who has committed over thousands of war crimes. He's killed babies, he's kidnapped children, he's kidnapped women, he's committed war crimes and atrocities against Ukrainian soldiers, and he has bombed civilian targets. Every single one of the Geneva Convention rules have been violated by this guy. And yet we're seeing them walk down a ramp together as if they're good old friends without the other member of the conflict involved, President Zelensky, which is, in my view, nauseating and criminal. It's just not the way you do business. And you would have thought that President Trump would have learned this from his first term, when he allowed his secretary of State to associate with the Taliban without the Afghan government and what it led to. So all of these things are more than troubling to me, Nicole, it's just, it's an embarrassment, and it's not the way you treat someone who has, as Ambassador McFaul just said, invaded another country, even after we sent the secretary of state and the CIA director to warn him not to do it, that there would be repercussions. And now he's in a situation where his army is about 3/4 destroyed, his economy is failing, he's continuing to conduct war crimes, and we've got our president shaking his hands. I just don't get it. It runs against everything I believe as a soldier, as someone who's taken an oath to a constitution, and who's someone who spent my life defending this country.
- [14:55]
Nicole Wallace
General, is this the first time Putin has been on an American military base or property that you can think of?
- [15:06]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I can't think of any other time that he's been welcomed on any kind of base. I may be wrong. I Certainly, back in 2012, I welcomed Russian generals to try and make better relationships with them to our bases in Germany and in fact, took them on free reins to different training areas so they could see the extent of the quality of our military. And that was purposeful. And it was my counterpart in Russia when we, when, when Russia had not invaded Ukraine for the first time in 2014, when we were still trying to conduct relations with them. But I got to tell you, too, and Ambassador McFaul knows this much better than I do, I've negotiated with Russian generals and with some Russian members of their government. They lie, they cheat, they counter everything you offer. When they agree to things in one day, they're going to disagree with them on the next when they're getting ready to conduct the contract for the deal. So this is just not a situation when we're talking about war and peace and when there is the potential for Putin's army or Putin himself to either invade conventionally other countries or asymmetrically, like they did to Estonia in 2007 or like they did in Georgia in 2008, or I can cite many other times when Russia has said, oh, gee, it's not us. Somebody else is doing these things, and then it was proven to be them. These are just not someone you treat with dignity and respect as they enter into your airspace, onto your bases and for a diplomatic relationship. But I'm just a simple.
- [16:52]
Nicole Wallace
Philip Crowther is with us now from the Associated Press. Philip, can you take us inside? What's happening on the ground there?
- [17:02]
Philip Crowther
Yeah, well, everything that is happening here in Anchorage between Presidents Trump and Putin is happening behind closed doors, essentially, at the military base here at Elmendorf, just outside of Anchorage, meaning that no members of the public will be able to in any way interact with the two presidents. They are just flying in, they have landed at this Air Force base, and then they will leave it again. There are no plans for either of them to leave this military base. There are some protesters here, by the way, just outside of the gates of the Air Force base, around a dozen or so with flags that say, stand with Ukraine. We've seen those protests as well yesterday in downtown Anchorage, a small sign of opposition to this bilateral meeting at which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, of course, would have liked to have been part thereof, and European leaders also. So what you're seeing from this meeting, despite its huge impact in, on the geopolitical stage, on the whole world, and especially, of course, on what is happening in Ukraine, on the ground here in Alaska, you're not going to see much of an effect on the local population, because these are two leaders who will not be seen outside of the very safe confines of the military base. We have already seen what things are going to look like, though, today. First of all, between Presidents Trump and Putin, it's friendly more than anything. These are not images of two enemies coming together. These are images of two people who seemingly, maybe like each other, certainly respect each other. And a very heavily choreographed meeting it was, too, with fighter jets flying overhead that we heard here outside of the base gates as well. We already know what the backdrop is going to be to this joint press conference that at least the Russian side has announced. It's that new slogan, pursuing peace. What does that mean? Does that mean that if there is to be a joint press conference, these two will have something to announce that they are somehow pursuing peace in Ukraine without Volodymyr Zelensky at the table? It seems very, very improbable indeed. But they will certainly make it sound like they are. And remember one thing also, this is not just a summit about Ukraine. That's not what it's called. It is just a bilateral meeting, essentially, between Trump and Putin. And of course, the war in Ukraine is the main topic, but they will be able to come out of it with some signed agreements if they want to, closer business ties, if you will, a bit of a rapprochement between Russia and the United States. All of that is possible for them to make it sound like, at least, that they were able to come up with concrete agreements between these two countries, who essentially, though without, of course, Boots on the ground are warring factions in Ukraine. These are Russian weapons versus US Made weapons. After all, you can't forget that this is a war in Ukraine that the United States is heavily involved in.
- [19:59]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Ambassador McFaul, it just sounds. The factual reporting makes clear that these are two propagandists staging pictures. And I wonder, you know, that shot is choreographed by both men, two of the world's best trained propagandists. What will that picture signal around the world?
- [20:21]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, around the world, Putin wants it to signal that he's back as a great leader, that he's being respected by the head of the United States of America, the greatest power on earth. That's a very powerful signal for him. Especially, by the way, maybe not so much in Europe, but around the world. That is a great gift that President Trump has given Vladimir Putin. The question I have is, what is Trump really getting out of this? Are his voters impressed by all this? Do they think this looks like a great thing that he's doing here? And if there's not something concrete, then I think it really backfires for the President. You know, think about those meetings with Kim Jong Un in the first term. We did these big things. He said, I'm not afraid to talk to anybody. We got nothing. American people, we got nothing out of those meetings. Same with the meetings with Putin, by the way, during president's first term, he had a bunch of them. We got nothing out of them. And in Helsinki, as you were alluding to earlier in 2018, the President was humiliated by agreeing with Putin and disagreeing with our intelligence community. So I hope, as a minimum, the President has studied those mistakes in the past and will seek to achieve something concrete for America, our allies, and our partner, Ukraine. And I just hope that Putin also thinks that just giving Trump just a little bit would be better than him walking out. And I suspect that there'll be some kind of trade space in between so that they both can declare themselves winners. But right now, Putin has won everything. And so far, my country, our democratic allies in Europe and the democratic country of Ukraine has gained nothing from all this pomp and circumstance.
- [22:05]
Nicole Wallace
All right, no one's going anywhere. We'll have much more with our panel as Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin, after this choreographed bromance image that's currently being beamed all around the world, are meeting behind closed doors in Anchorage, Alaska. Also had for us, Putin's forces carried out crimes against humanity in Russia's brutal war. He is wanted by the International Criminal Court. And yet. And yet, President United States, welcome Putin to US Soil, a military base, as has been discussed with open arms. Fawning open arms. We'll take a closer look at Putin's known atrocities in the next hour. And we will turn to politics here at home and the redistricting fight for democracy now backed by former President Barack Obama. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [23:05]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
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- [23:36]
Nicole Wallace
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- [24:17]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
My people came to me. Dan Coates came to me and some others. They said they think it's Russia. I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be. I have great confidence in my intelligence people. But I will tell you that President Putin was extremely strong and powerful in his denial today.
- [24:46]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, it's so embarrassing. You're waiting for him to say, and he looks so nice in his suit and his abs are cut. There's a six pack under there. If you get to see it. Like, I mean, it's disgusting. And again, Ambassador McFaul, I wonder if you are any closer today than you were that day in Helsinki to understanding why. Why all the public adoration this carefully, Carefully. I mean, I worked on Presidential events for six years. This is a lot of stagecraft. My understanding, our reporting is that they timed their arrivals. There was a car there, we understand from bureaus around the world for Putin, Trump put him in the beast. There's a lot of touching. I know that we always see him touching Melania as much as he touched Putin today. The handshake and then the hand on top of the hand. I mean, everything that over nine years we've learned about Trump, this is as fawning as he can be with any public figure he's ever photographed with. Why?
- [25:53]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, first of all, you're absolutely right. No leader in the world that I know gets this treatment. And we all thought that something had changed a few weeks ago, several weeks ago, when we started to see President Trump finally criticizing Putin, Right? And we all thought, oh, my goodness, there's going to be a big change here. He's going to put sanctions on him. He threatened to do sanctions. But now we're back to the old Putin and Trump report. This could be right out of 2018, what you just played. And it's just, I just have to say, it's just over the top. I planned presidential meetings for Barack Obama with leaders from Russia. There's a way to be respectful, but not over the top like this, especially when we're talking about Vladimir Putin, as we already described, and, you know, indicted war criminal attacking an innocent country, killing Ukrainian civilians every night. I applaud Trump, President Trump, for trying to meet with Putin and trying to end this barbaric, horrible war. And he has to talk to Putin maybe to do so. But you don't have to check your values at the door. That's what one of my colleagues at Stanford, former Secretary of State George Shultz, used to always say. Yes, we're going to meet with people that we disagree with, and we're going to meet with autocrats and dictators, but we're not going to check our values at the door. And that's what this feels like, like he's forgetting that this is the autocratic imperial dictator of Russia, and he's just treating him like he's an ally of the United States of America, and he's not.
- [27:28]
Nicole Wallace
Do you think he forgot, though, or do you think he's saying something else? I mean, do you think that all of the images are the message about who the ally really is?
- [27:39]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, I most certainly worry about that. I think that Trump has this idea that a good meeting and all this cordial stuff might lead to a good outcome. But I just want to underscore. There's very little evidence to support that hypothesis, both from his first term or here in his second term. All of this stuff has not led to one change in Putin's position. I want to really underscore that fact. Nothing Putin has said since Trump has been president has changed in terms of his war aims, and he's had to change nothing, he's had to give nothing to get this meeting. Now, I hope, I really do, I really hope that that will change during this meeting and we'll see some concession from Putin, but so far, we've seen none of it. And I want to underscore his position because I think people forget one of his positions is that Ukraine needs to leave the parts of the four regions where they're fighting that Putin, de facto de jure, had, had already annexed a couple years ago. And one of his conditions for a ceasefire is that Ukrainian soldiers leave those territories. Right. Think about how absurd that position is. And yet that's the position he has adopted going into this meeting with President Trump. So I hope he moves off of it. I hope there might be a ceasefire, at least an agreement to meet with President Zelensky. But so far, he's had to do nothing and has gotten all of these photo ops, you know, this rehabilitation, I would say, of President Putin as a world leader, and he's gotten it for absolutely nothing, doesn't have to do a single thing to get all this kind of treatment.
- [29:20]
Nicole Wallace
General Hartling, if you rewind the tape to Donald Trump's rather tortured relationship with Zelenskyy in Ukraine, it sort of winds through two, you know, two impeachments, an insurrection, a reelection, and now this. And I think of people like the diplomatic corps that was there, the folks that the country got to know through the first impeachment, who understood that Ukraine was our ally, that there was a war being waged, that the Ukrainians were at war for their freedom, for their independence, for their country, for their sovereignty. That has been underestimated by Putin at times. Do you think it's being underestimated by Donald Trump now?
- [30:07]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Oh, absolutely, Nicole. Absolutely. I can't emphasize that enough. I've watched Russian soldiers trained, come into their boot camps, be treated by their leaders in horrible ways. A lack of capability in the force, bad doctrine, no NCOs, terrible generals. And I've worked with, for an extensive period of time, the Ukrainian army back in 2010 through 2012. The culture is different, the people are different. The soldiers have turned into an incredible fighting force. They still have some challenges to be sure, but they have held off the world's fourth largest army for a good three years. They haven't been defeated. President Trump does not know the history of that country, the so called borderland between Russia and the rest of Europe. And he doesn't understand that their culture is not Russia. They are not a part of Russia. They have a distinctly different approach to life. And he doesn't understand the history. So that's what since. Truthfully, Nicole, you know me relatively well, but you probably don't know. I'm the biggest optimist you will ever meet. And ever since.
- [31:25]
Nicole Wallace
Good. That's why you're here.
- [31:26]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Yeah. Well, ever since this meeting was announced, I've had a dread and I've had just a gut feel in the pit of my stomach that things were not going to go well for Ukraine because I truthfully love that country. It's a beautiful culture and people. And because our president doesn't understand, understand, I don't think he understands the history of either Russia or Ukraine or the dynamics of Europe right now that something may be given to President Putin. I'll say one more thing, Nicole. I was in Europe a couple of months ago, traveled to eight different countries on both official and unofficial business. And what I saw there were the European countries flying more Ukrainian flags than their own flags, going to Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Finland and Sweden, two new NATO countries. There were Ukrainian flags and support for the Ukrainian people all over Europe because they know better what Russia is under Putin than anyone in the United States. And that's where I think we've made some missteps by sending envoys like Witkoff and even the Secretary of State, Secretary Rubio, to try and deal with this guy because they are not up to his capabilities. Ambassador McFaul was, and he was probably beaten up quite a few times. But I got to tell you, we just don't understand as a country what's going on in Europe right now and especially what's going on in Ukraine.
- [32:59]
Nicole Wallace
I'm happy you mentioned dread. I mean, I think that is what I feel watching this. And the idea that there, that these are, you know, two sides at war with each other and we don't have skin in the game is not true. This is an official White House photo on the air. We are on the side of our ally. We are on the side of a democratically elected leader of our ally. We are on the side of Ukraine as a citizenry. The polls show the Americans overwhelmingly, even Fox News viewers overwhelmingly support Ukraine. And the latest polls show that 60% of Americans don't trust Donald Trump's handling other Russia, Ukraine wars. So that's a whole lot more people that distrust him. He doesn't even carry his whole base of voters or base of support with him today to Anchorage, Alaska, in terms of the number of Americans who have any confidence in him. I appreciate all of you so much. Philip CROWTHER, Ambassador Michael McFaul and Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thank you so much for talking us through this today. We'll continue to monitor developments from Joint Base Elmendorf Richardson in Alaska where Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin are meeting over the war in Ukraine, ostensibly. But when we return, we'll turn to the red hot political fight for democracy here in America as Democrats led by former President Barack Obama work to block Donald Trump Trump's power grab in Texas and beyond. We'll bring you that reporting next.
- [34:34]
Rev. Al Sharpton
We're in a moment right now where not just gerrymandering but efforts at voter suppression, efforts at questioning the results of elections, efforts at the executive branch unilaterally doing things that bypass Congress and the people's representatives, militarization of cities, politicization of our justice departments and our military. Those are trend lines that remind us this precious democracy that we've got is not a given. It's not self executing. It requires us to fight for.
- [35:23]
Ali Velshi
Requires.
- [35:24]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Us to stand up for it.
- [35:27]
Nicole Wallace
That was former President Barack Obama on the imperative of fighting back right now against Donald Trump's gerrymandering efforts and other overreaches. The former president was speaking to the Democratic members of the Texas Texas legislature via Zoom who fled the state to prevent Texas Governor Greg Abbott from passing heavily gerrymandered congressional maps mid decade that would deliberately disenfranchise millions of Texans. The former president was joined by his former attorney General Eric Holder, who now chairs the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. Holder spoke about his committee's work to push back on the Republican plans to bring Texas style gerrymandering to other red seats states. The Republican effort to rig congressional maps across the country has sparked outrage from Democratic governors who have promised to find ways to redraw their own state's maps in defense of democracy. Yesterday, California Governor Gavin Newsom called on California lawmakers to approve a special election set for this fall to allow his state to redraw its maps. A draft of the new maps obtained by Politico found that Democrats could pick up at least five new seats under the new congressional lines if approved by voters in California. Joining our coverage is Democratic Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren of California. Congresswoman, do you want to respond to Donald Trump with Putin? First, we'll get that over with, and then we'll turn to President Obama's comments.
- [36:58]
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
It's kind of a concern. I mean, he has welcomed the president of Russia, a war criminal, like he's some kind of hero. I'm worried that Trump will not be up to the task of dealing with a wily, strategic Putin. But let's hope for the best, right? They're in there talking. If he could somehow get Putin to withdraw from Ukraine and end the war, we'd all celebrate. So let's see.
- [37:31]
Nicole Wallace
We'll stick a pin in that. One, your thoughts on President Obama's comments to the Texas lawmakers? It seems to mark two things in my mind, a very public acknowledgment of how dire the first six months of the Trump presidency have been, in former President Obama's view. And two, a real endorsement of efforts to defend democracy in blue states by making these changes to maps in places like California.
- [38:05]
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
Well, I think his call to Americans to fight back is timely, and I was glad to hear it. You know, as to what's going on in California, we've had a citizens Redistricting Commission for quite some time. I chair the California Democratic delegation. We like the commission. We're not particularly interested in changing our maps that they drew. But when we saw what Texas was doing to try, you know, they know they're going to lose the election unless they rig it somehow because their policies are completely unpopular. I mean, taking health care away from millions of Americans, ending the Meals and Wheels program. Really, we're going to make the seniors go hungry. The nutrition programs, the list goes on and on. So we thought here in California, should we respond? I mean, is the response going to be just a shrug and let them get away with it? And we didn't think that was responsible. So we looked to see what could happen. And we believe in the law. So we thought what would happen if we took a look at the districts here and made sure that any changes complied with the Voting Rights act, which Texas certainly did not. And we found, yeah, we could put five Republican seats in play. And so that's what we're working on right now with our legislative leaders in the state Senate and the state Assembly. And obviously, the governor has been very vocal. I think we have to. But we don't want to eliminate the commission forever. I mean, this is kind of an emergency that calls for an emergency response. And our thinking is we go back to the commission after the next census and have them do it again.
- [39:54]
Nicole Wallace
It's an important distinction and it seems important to Democrats to make this distinction. If the slogan is fighting fire with fire, the fine print is that this is not apples to apples, that if, you know, Texas is an apple, maybe with a worm winding its way through it. In California, it's an apple that you'll cut into eight pieces and let the voters take a look at and do something temporary that sunsets at the next census. Is that accurate?
- [40:20]
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
Absolutely. We would not even consider doing this unless the voters agree. I mean, it's going to be their decision, not, not my decision. And that's the way it should be. And that's the way we operate in California. You know, there is a need for an accelerated process because if we're going to do a special election, everything has to happen promptly. But that's not inconsistent with the transparent process. Our proposed maps are going to be released later today and then the legislature, they'll be public, the public will be able to comment on them. They'll have a hearing, they'll have a vote and then ultimately the voters will decide.
- [41:01]
Nicole Wallace
Congresswoman, I want to ask you to stick around. I want to show you a little bit more of what President Obama said yesterday. And I want to show you what your governor Gavin Newsom said about ICE agents patrolling outside of his event yesterday. Quick break. We'll be right back. On the other side.
- [41:21]
Rev. Al Sharpton
I think we became a little bit complacent over the years. We assumed that things would continue to get better, that our democracy would become more inclusive, that it would become more fair, that we'd make it easier for.
- [41:37]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
People to vote rather than harder for.
- [41:39]
Rev. Al Sharpton
People to vote, that the votes would be counted rather than suppressed. And what we forgot is that history doesn't always move in a straight line and it's not always two steps forward and another two steps forward. Sometimes it's two steps forward and a step back.
- [42:00]
Nicole Wallace
Congressman, this feels like an important sort of mental, like a mindset shift or acknowledgement from the president. And the Democrats seem to be rowing in one direction. They seem to be matching their voters enthusiasm, demand. It's not even enthusiasm. The Democratic base is demanding more fight from Democratic leaders and Democratic officials. How do you see that mesh of the the voters demand that Democrats fight what they see as authoritarian straight up and sort of fealty to what the president's talking there sort of this arc of progress and institutional norms?
- [42:40]
Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren
Well, I think, you know, Obama is a very wise individual and his comment that it's not always two steps forward, then two steps more forward. We're definitely stepping back. And that's not acceptable. And it's not just unacceptable from the point of view of democratic norms and our ability to maintain our freedom, but also the harm that's being inflicted on regular Americans through the policies of Donald Trump and his Republican allies. I mean, the cuts to health care and the inflation that's being inflicted on people, the ridiculous trade wars, costs are going through the roof. Have you gone to the grocery store recently? Check out the meat aisle? I mean, wow, check out. It's a multifaceted thing. And California in particular has really been disadvantaged by Trump. I mean, what other state has had a major disaster like we did in LA and waited this long for the disaster release? Little known but true fact, the Army Corps has a huge process to do flood control projects. They're yanking the flood control projects in California because it's a blue state. I mean, the health care, the education cuts, the science cuts, it's a direct attack on California.
- [44:04]
Nicole Wallace
There's so much that's happening in California. We'd like to have you come back on Monday, if that works for your schedule. The ice patrols outside of Gavin Newsom, whether the D.C. patrols are a harbinger of things to come. We'd love to ask you about all of it, but we've run out of time today. We hope we can see you next week to continue this conversation. Congresswoman okay, thank you so much for joining us. When we come back, speaking of what's happening in dc, we'll bring you the latest on the legal fight over Donald Trump's takeover of the nation's capital. That stories next. A federal judge this afternoon heard arguments over the District of Columbia's bid to pause and vacate Attorney General Pam Bondi's order claiming federal control of the D.C. police Force. The attorney general for the District of Columbia is seeking an emergency temporary restraining order today to stop what he calls, quote, the hostile takeover of law enforcement. This comes hours after Attorney General Pam Bondi announced that the DEA administrator will now serve as head of the Metropolitan Police of DC. DC's Attorney General told the current chief, Pamela Smith, not to follow that directive and to continue operating as the chief. Today, Police Chief Smith told the court she had, quote, never seen a single government action that would cause a greater threat to law and order than this dangerous directive. We will keep you updated on that story and bring you any news from the judge as it happens. Up next for us, as Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin continue their summit in Alaska, it's important to remember Russia's crimes against humanity in Ukraine and why For Putin just being here shoulder to shoulder with the American President is already a slam dunk. When the next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [46:05]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
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- [47:06]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
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- [47:20]
John Brennan
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
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- [47:40]
Nicole Wallace
We can't sleep, we can't eat normally because of terrible pain in art. Maybe anxious because of everything in this world doing right now.
- [47:59]
John Brennan
The most crazy feel when you hear how kids screaming, mothers screaming is so crazy that panic.
- [48:06]
Nicole Wallace
You see how people so afraid as far as shelter is concerned.
- [48:10]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I'm talking to you from my bathroom, which is the safest place in my flat because it has an additional wall.
- [48:20]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the east. It's 1 o' clock in Alaska. Keep all of what I'm about to say in mind as we mull what's happening right now in Anchorage and what we've already seen happen already today in Anchorage. In the three plus years that the war in Ukraine has been raging, the Ukrainian people have been enduring horror after horror after horror, tragedy after tragedy. Putin is waging right now a Brutal and senseless war where no sacred space has been spared. Russia has struck places like apartment buildings in the middle of cities, a train station filled with Ukrainians trying to flee. To get to safety, they've gone after the most vulnerable at schools and kindergartens and even a maternity hospital. Hospital. 600 Ukrainians were killed when Russia bombed a drama theater in Mariupol. And then there was, of course, the unimaginable horrors of Bucha, a town that was ravaged by Russian troops who committed despicable acts targeting civilians. I'll warn you that some of these images at Abucha are disturbing. Back In April of 2022, we saw the wake of death and destruction left by Russian soldiers who committed heinous acts, torturing, raping, and executing Ukrainians, sometimes in front of their families and children. Our friend and colleague Ali Belshi, who spent so much time reporting on the ground in Ukraine for us as the war has unfolded, took a trip to Bucha on the day that marked one year since the war began. Here he is with a member of Ukraine's parliament reliving the Bucha massacre.
- [49:56]
Ali Velshi
You show up and there's bodies everywhere.
- [49:59]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Yeah.
- [50:00]
Ali Velshi
Bodies that have been decomposing. They'd been there, in some cases, almost a month.
- [50:04]
Rev. Al Sharpton
For weeks.
- [50:04]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, for weeks. Yeah.
- [50:05]
Ali Velshi
That.
- [50:06]
Nicole Wallace
That was so awful.
- [50:07]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
I. I mean, at that moment, I saw already many things, but that was.
- [50:14]
Rev. Al Sharpton
One of the most awful pictures I saw in my life.
- [50:19]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
What, what, what was here?
- [50:20]
Rev. Al Sharpton
The car.
- [50:21]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
There was a body of a small boy, probably like.
- [50:25]
Nicole Wallace
Like 6 years old, and also staying there for weeks.
- [50:29]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Like.
- [50:31]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Like, my younger child is four years.
- [50:33]
Rev. Al Sharpton
And like, ah.
- [50:37]
Ali Velshi
I. I was talking to you at the time. You had gone through Hostomel.
- [50:41]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah.
- [50:43]
Ali Velshi
You were discovering these things in that moment.
- [50:46]
Philip Crowther
Yeah.
- [50:46]
Ali Velshi
How are you?
- [50:47]
Rev. Al Sharpton
How.
- [50:47]
Ali Velshi
What were you thinking?
- [50:51]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
I don't know.
- [50:52]
Rev. Al Sharpton
It was like.
- [50:53]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
I was shocked and.
- [50:57]
Rev. Al Sharpton
I was shocked.
- [50:58]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
And I. I wanted revenge and I wanted justice. Like today, after one year, it's the same. We want justice.
- [51:10]
Nicole Wallace
The International Criminal Court has a warrant out for Putin's arrest for his unlawful deportation of Ukrainian children. And yet, how is that guy? Vladimir Putin was ordered and sanctioned these crimes against humanity received by our nation's leader, our president. Well, with comments like these.
- [51:33]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Along very well with Putin, I got. I fully understand what's happening. President Putin was a total gentleman. President Putin called me up very nicely to congratulate me on the win of the election. He's running this country, and at least.
- [51:46]
Nicole Wallace
He'S a leader, you know, unlike what we have in this country.
- [51:50]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
But again, he kills journalists.
- [51:52]
Nicole Wallace
That don't agree with him. Well, I think our country does plenty of killing.
- [51:58]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Also, Joe, we had a very successful meeting with Russia and President Putin, and we're just doing great in foreign affairs. We are doing so much better than anybody thought possible.
- [52:13]
Nicole Wallace
Today. Putin is being rewarded with perhaps the biggest award of this long relationship between Trump and Putin. Trump has rolled out an actual red carpet. Putin's getting a meeting on American soil after those war crimes in Bucha, after the kidnapping of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Ukrainian children. And for Putin, it's the first time he's been welcome here in a decade. That warm welcome from Donald Trump for Vladimir Putin is where we start the hour. Our friend and colleague, MSNBC's Ali Belshee is here. Also joining us, staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic Daily newsletter, Tom Nichols is here. We're going to start, though, with former director of the CIA, now an MSNBC senior National Security Analyst, John Brennan, who is here. Director Brennan, what are your thoughts when you see Trump touch Putin? I've counted at least four times. An arm on the shoulder, a hand on hand. I can't imagine touching somebody like that after knowing about and seeing reporting like Ali Balshi's out of Bucha. Your thoughts?
- [53:20]
John Brennan
Well, as Ali's interview demonstrated, there are so many individual stories about just the horrendous suffering that the Ukrainian people have gone through, but it's the scale of the suffering. Vladimir Putin is responsible for well over 1 million deaths. Ukraine, Ukrainians and Russians probably three or four times as many wounded and maimed. The scale of the atrocities and his targeting, intentional targeting of civilians makes, I think that image of the red carpet reading from the president states particularly odious. It is really quite something that an international pariah who has been responsible for so much destruction over the past several years is welcomed. Now, I know that we need to be able to bring the fighting Ukraine to an end. And unfortunately, you know, the only president we have right now is Donald Trump. And so I do believe that both Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin do not want this meeting to be an abject failure. I think they both have a stake in seeing something come out of it. But I do detect Donald Trump's nervousness. I think he does have some butterflies in his stomach because he knows that he has long over committed what he can do in terms of bringing this war to a close. And so he's into theatrics. He's in. He's a performative politician. And so there's probably going to be the press conference where they will announce something. But the big question is, what will change as a result of this meeting? Is there going to be some type of ceasefire that could lead, in fact, to some type of process that is going to bring this conflict to a close? I certainly don't expect Vladimir Putin to say that he's going to withdraw from Ukrainian territory, he's going to pay reparations, all the things that should have happened. But unfortunately, we are at this point now in history, and Donald Trump, unfortunately, is the person who has to do the deal, do a deal with Putin. But the fact that you don't have President Zelensky of Ukraine involved at this point. So I expect that Donald Trump, as he's famous for saying, you know, we'll see what's going to happen, he'll come out and announce something. Maybe there'll be some type of carrot that Vladimir Putin will give him. But it all is going to depend on what happens on the battlefront and the battlefield after this, so that we can bring this suffering to a, at least a temporary close that could lead to something more permanent.
- [55:40]
Nicole Wallace
As an intelligence professional and as a student of world leaders and imagery and iconography, what did Putin see when he saw Zelensky's treatment in the Oval and the carefully choreographed, coordinated red carpet walk for him?
- [56:02]
John Brennan
Well, I think if Putin looks back to 20th of January, his fortunes certainly have increased. The humiliating treatment that was given to Zelensky in the Oval Office by Donald Trump, Trump, the comments that Donald Trump has made about Putin, about Russia, and now with this reception on US Territory at the Air Force Base in Alaska, I think, again, Putin has been able to shed to, you know, I think, a fairly large degree in the minds of some, certainly in the minds of Russians, this international pariah status. And that is what Putin wants to, I think, demonstrate globally. He wants to show that he is back, that he is now going to be dealt with and interacting with the leader of the Western world, the president, United States. And so I think Putin is feeling pretty good about this. He already has won something by being getting this invitation. And so I do think that Vladimir Putin detects that Donald Trump is willing to do whatever possible to be perceived as having brought some peace to Ukraine, which could be, in fact, giving away what the Ukrainians are very strongly opposed to giving to Putin.
- [57:14]
Nicole Wallace
Director Brennan, let me show you the conditions that Hillary Clinton said would lead to her nominating Trump for a Nobel Peace Prize herself. There's a new reporting that the Russians.
- [57:29]
Tom Nichols
Have hacked into some computer systems.
- [57:34]
Nicole Wallace
He is not meeting with a Friend. He is meeting with an adversary, and an adversary who wants to see the destruction of the United States and the Western Alliance. But if he could bring about the end to this terrible war where Putin is the aggressor, invading a neighbor country, trying to change the borders, if he could end it without putting Ukraine in a position where it had to concede its territory to the aggressor, there must be a ceasefire. There will be no exchange of territory. If President Trump were the architect of that, I'd nominate him for a Nobel Peace Prize. Made me laugh the first time I heard it. But the truth is Trump has never negotiated something this complex, and he certainly never asked Putin to give something back, to give back occupied territory and negotiate a ceasefire. Where do you put the odds of being able to convince Putin to do that after all of this very public pomp and circumstance in his honor?
- [58:50]
John Brennan
I think the odds are probably 1 out of 100 at best. There is no way Vladimir Putin is going to give up the territory that he has gained in Ukraine willingly. This is not something that is in his personality to be able to just withdraw and to acknowledge publicly that he made a mistake. So, again, Donald Trump, who believes he's the, you know, the world's best negotiator, that's why I think he realizes that this is something way, way beyond his ability to even in influence, in a very positive direction. So what's going to happen in these meetings? I don't know. I hope that Donald Trump stays strong, pushes for a ceasefire across the board, not just an air ceasefire, but on the battlefield, freeze that so we can stop some of this suffering. But I really don't see Vladimir Putin reneging or pulling out of the territory that he's in now. But I would second the nomination for a Nobel Peace Prize of Hillary Clinton for Donald Trump, if, in fact, that that happens. But I see the chances of that being next to zero.
- [60:04]
Nicole Wallace
What are you thinking, if you're President Zelensky today, to have been excluded from today's meeting?
- [60:11]
John Brennan
I think President Zelensky feels good that his European partners are staying strong with him, that that strength of the European coalition, I think, is critically important, to send the signal to Donald Trump that the Ukrainians, the Europeans, are going to continue this fight almost with or without the United States. And also I think Donald Trump recognizes that Zelensky has a fair amount of support still here in the United States, including within the Republican caucus. And that's why Donald Trump doesn't hold all the cards that he would like to hold at this point point, he's navigating some difficult political shoals here in the United States on a number of fronts, but also internationally. I think he recognizes that his ability to really change the trajectory of this conflict is limited. And therefore, Vladimir Putin, I think, has the stronger hand, not only because he is far more experienced and far more knowledgeable about the region, the history of the conflict and so on. Donald Trump, I think, recognizes he's out of his element here, and that's why I do think he's a bit worried. But he will still try to put as much lipstick on the proverbial pig as possible and sending a signal that this was a very productive and successful meeting. Probably going to announce a second meeting and follow up, that there is going to be serious work done. But again, this is part of Donald Trump kicking the can down the road, as he is apt to do.
- [61:32]
Nicole Wallace
Director John Brennan, thank you for starting us off this hour and for your analysis and wisdom. We appreciate you.
- [61:39]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
Thanks.
- [61:40]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole Ali, let me bring you in. I think all the time about your reporting in Bucha. I think all the time about John Kirby, who was Pentagon spokesperson. I interviewed him. We've all had the chance, the privilege of interviewing him moved to tears after sort of seeing and learning about that, probably ahead of even some of us. And I think all the time about just at a human level, how do you sit across from someone who's tortured and murdered civilians, ushered in so much heartache, and how do you do it with such glee? I mean, Donald Trump has a lot of things, but able to feign respect isn't one of them. This is genuine admiration, respect and a desire to be close. Close to Putin. He can't stop touching him. Your thoughts about what we're seeing today?
- [62:33]
Ali Velshi
Yeah, I mean, for a little while there, you had that split screen going on where you showed Zelensky in the White House and you know, the way he was getting scolded, the body language, J.D. vance and Donald Trump scolding Volodymyr Zelenskyy and then this thing, let alone the red carpet. But you're right, the touching, the joking, the lightheartedness about the whole thing. And then all day we've been hearing about all these extra people who are being added to this trip, which is now sounding like, well, it's probably not going to emerge with a ceasefire or any kind of a negotiated settlement, obviously, because there are zero Ukrainians in the room. So you can't have these deals. Although Donald Trump has become accustomed to this sort of thing, making deals with one Party as opposed to the other. But it seems like other things are going on. They're talking about perhaps rare earth minerals. They're talking about using icebreakers in the Arctic. So it almost seems like Donald Trump might come out of this thing. Well, we haven't quite got this Ukraine thing settled, but we have all these other things which then normalizes this man. It normalizes Vladimir Putin, who is a global pariah. You know, there were complaints when Joe Biden had Narendra Modi from India at the White House. And India's issues are nowhere close to what Russia's are in terms of, of the humanitarian issues that they've been undertaking. Donald Trump recently in his tariffs sent a letter to the military junta that runs Myanmar. They're not recognized by the world. They were so excited to find out what their tariff rate was because it was a de facto recognition. This is a dangerous thing. When you take a guy like Vladimir Putin, who in most cases might be arrested when he lands in a NATO country, and you treat him like this, what you're basically doing is you're getting people used to the fact that this war has changed after three years. Something else is going on. On the right of your screen, the guy who was invaded is going to get yelled at and lectured at by the by the American president. And on the left of your screen, the guy who did the invading is got into the beast, had a nice ride with the president and seems to be in for a fun evening.
- [64:33]
Nicole Wallace
Tom Nichols, take me through your thoughts as you watch what Ali just perfectly described. This split screen moment you feel like on the right is what America was, what we used to stand for, an ally like Zelensky being scolded not just by the American president, but forcefully by J.D. vance, who once called Donald Trump America's Hitler. And then on the left, you see Trump with Putin three and a half years into this heinous war, touching him, sharing a walk down a red carpet, ascending stairs to be photographed. White House released a photo of Donald Trump grinning ear to ear next to Vladimir Putin. It was an official White House photo release. And then if not unprecedented, it's exceedingly rare to get into the beast with another world leader. Your thoughts?
- [65:26]
Tom Nichols
Well, a couple of things. One of them is a reminder watching the split screen of how utterly transactional and self centered this White House is. You know, part of the reason this whole summit happened with this seat of the pants, you know, let's throw a party in Alaska at the last moment kind of approach is that Donald Trump I think was very Eager to do something with this summit that had nothing to do with Ukraine and that was to change the news cycle. Think of all the things we're not talking about right now. We're not talking about the economy, we're not talking about tariffs, we're not talking especially about Jeffrey Epstein. We're not talking about all the things that have been driving Trump crazy over the past few weeks. I think in that sense, both Putin and Trump have already gotten what they needed out of this summit. Putin has, as I think Ali's absolutely right, been kind of renormalized as a world leader who gets a red carpet. And, and you're right, Nicole, the kind of, the glad handing and the touching and the back slapping, when you're meeting a guy who's, you know, basically a mass murderer, there should be a little bit of reserve. There should be a little bit of the impressiveness and forcefulness and strength of the United States presidency behind that meeting. You know, perfunctory handshake perhaps. This is not two pals getting together for a ride in a Cadillac. This is a serious and awful day where hopefully, and, you know, I wish him success and maybe I'll be the third guy to nominate for the Peace prize, that this is the President of the United States trying to stop the butchery of an innocent country that was invaded in the middle of Europe. The first time since World War II that this, we've seen this kind of savagery in the middle of Europe. It's not, it's not a party. And unfortunately, this White House only thinks in terms of, you know, image and what can it do for the President, and what can it do for the Vice president? Apparently, in the last hour, we just found out that the President's already sending out a fundraising leaflet, which I think is just ghastly and vulgar to do at a moment like this. So, you know, at this point, I think if anything comes out, I think Director Brennan. By the way, I do have one disagreement with Director Brennan. He kept saying, well, Donald Trump probably realizes he's out of his depth. I don't think Donald Trump ever realizes he's out of his death. I don't, I don't think that thought ever crosses his mind or that he's even capable of formulating that concept that he's out of his depth and that he's in over his head. But I suspect that Director Brennan's right. They'll come out and they'll say, well, we agreed on some things, we didn't agree on other things. We're going to talk again. Nobody's mad. We're all going to go home. It's okay. And the killing will just keep going.
- [68:30]
Nicole Wallace
It's so much having sort of had the privilege of interviewing a lot of Ukrainians. And I know, Ali, you've been there. It's. It's so much to watch our country's president stand with the person responsible for all that suffering and all that death. It's just heinous. And it's not just bucha. I mean, it's indiscriminate strikes on apartments that kill not enough innocent civilians to dominate the headlines for days and days. But it's the terror. It's the terror of sending your kid off to school because you want life to be somewhat normal. But you know that any day Russia could bomb anywhere in Ukraine. I mean, it's watching them scrape and struggle to get an American president who supported them, to give them all the weapons they needed to go toe to toe with Russia, and to see all that potentially erased by an American president who just doesn't give a shit about democracy, he doesn't care about our allies, he doesn't care about a democratic ally's sovereignty. I mean, it just seems like even from the first Trump presidency, where you have people like Ambassador Bill Taylor, Mary Yovanovitch, or Fiona Hill, there's no one around Donald Trump who can even explain why he shouldn't touch Putin. So many times in front of the.
- [69:52]
Ali Velshi
Camera, those people are gone. And that's important because you needed those people to be able to say, hey, can we just explain this to you how this works and why it's really strategically important and, by the way, effective on many levels to support Ukraine. But this was Donald Trump's first impeachment, right, where he took congressionally approved money to support an ally and decided to hold that off to shake down Vladimir Zelensky. So Trump's anger at Volodymyr Zelensky runs very, very deep. Right? He got him impeached the first time around because of nothing Volodymyr Zelensky did. Then. You have the south idea that we had Donald. We had Joe Biden in government. Joe Biden supported Ukraine's aims and yet was criticized for being a day late and a dollar short in a lot of cases. We were always sort of six weeks behind in terms of what the weaponry needed to be. But still, Joe Biden put together a collection of about 50 countries to stand by Ukraine. So, you know, NATO, plus about 20 more countries, and a whole lot of other countries said we want to be part of something like this. We want to be part of. Part of an alliance where the world will gather with us in case we are invaded. Everything about this sends a very different message. I'm very much in favor of people meeting people to end wars. I don't mind the idea that the meetings actually happen, but everything about the imagery here and the stagecraft here suggests two good guys meeting with each other to ham it up a little bit, when in fact, one of those guys has been perpetrating war crimes against innocent civilians.
- [71:15]
Nicole Wallace
Just waiting for the protester to yell, Russia. If you're listening, we're waiting for the Epstein files. We will sneak in a break. You guys are going to stay with me. We'll have more coverage of the atrocities perpetrated by Putin's forces that seem to have been forgotten today or at least ignored. The summit between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin now nearing two hours long. That then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. So this is a big moment for.
- [71:47]
Tom Nichols
Putin because he essentially is being legitimized.
- [71:51]
Ali Velshi
In the eyes of the United States.
- [71:53]
Tom Nichols
And in the eyes of the world. We know there's not going to be any major peace deal here, largely because.
- [72:00]
Ali Velshi
One of the parties to the war isn't at the table.
- [72:03]
Tom Nichols
You can't sign a peace agreement if Zelenskyy isn't there.
- [72:07]
Ali Velshi
And so there is not going to be any breakthrough. And my worry is that while the.
- [72:12]
Tom Nichols
Photo op in and of itself essentially.
- [72:15]
Ali Velshi
Legitimizes war crimes, telegraphs to other autocrats.
- [72:19]
Nicole Wallace
Or evil men around the world that they can get away with murdering civilians.
- [72:24]
Ali Velshi
And still get a photo op with the President of the United States.
- [72:29]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Ali Velshi and Tom Nichols. I mean, Tom as he's talking. That was from this morning. You know, check, check, check. All that has happened this afternoon in Anchorage, Alaska. Where do we go as a country from this day? Oh, Tom, you're on mute. You have to unmute. Start over.
- [72:51]
Tom Nichols
Oh, sorry. The president and. Have you got me?
- [72:57]
Nicole Wallace
I got you now. Start over. Yeah.
- [72:59]
Tom Nichols
Even he's a minority. The president is a minority. He's a minority in his own party. A minority among Americans. Most Americans support Ukraine. They want to see Ukraine succeed and stay, you know, intact. And so where we go as a country is simply, you know, hard to say, because no matter what we do, what the rest of us do, Donald Trump is the president, and the president leads foreign policy. That's just how our system is designed. And if we had a functioning Congress and a functioning majority in the U.S. senate. You know, they might be able to move our foreign policy and move the president on this, but because we have a supine House and Senate that basically is just an extension of Donald Trump's cult of personality, there isn't much we can do. And I want to add one more thing. You know, Director Brennan talked about the evident nervousness of Trump. I don't think it's. I don't think it's nervousness as much as it is. And I think this is one of the reasons I worry about. Anytime he meets at a summit like this, he's afraid of Putin, and Putin knows it. And that's been clear ever since Helsinki and all throughout Donald Trump's first term in this term. So I worry that for all the tough talk that when Putin barks at him or stiffens, the president's gonna say, okay, you know, you're right back, you know, back to square one. Because again, the. Clearly, the top dog in this situation, as we're seeing right now, is Vladimir Putin and not Donald Trump. And that is a recipe for disaster.
- [74:39]
Nicole Wallace
Tom, let me just follow up with you. I mean, one of the things that's happening right now on the right is an effort to replace relitigation of the. The Russia hoax, which is, to me seems so foolish, because men like Marco Rubio and John Durham corroborate the assessment of the intelligence community of 2016, that Russia meddled in the 2016 election and preferred Donald Trump in a choice between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. But all the same, that is the project right now on the maga. Right. And I wonder if you think. Do you think that that is among the things they'll discuss?
- [75:19]
Tom Nichols
Maybe. Although I think the main reason for relitigating Russia, I refuse to call it the Russia hoax. I think it was the Russia facts is that is that Donald Trump wants to kneecap the credibility of law enforcement and intelligence organizations in the United States because of other things going on, like the Epstein case. You know, the minute the Epstein files became an issue, suddenly Tulsi Gabbard said, wait, here's evidence that, you know, everybody lies about such things. So I suspect that's part of it. And also, I think it's important to point out that Donald Trump always plays to his supporters, because as long as he has his base, they will intimidate the senators and congressmen that Trump needs in order to sustain his power. So he's not trying to speak to the whole country. He's trying to speak to that 20 or 30% of Republicans who will primary other their own people and keep them in line. MAGA world has no memory. They don't remember, you know, the Russia stuff and anything that's. This is all new for them. They're going to start all over again. And the goal here is to keep Donald Trump in power and to keep elected Republicans. That's really what it's about, I think.
- [76:40]
Nicole Wallace
I don't disagree with any of that, Ali, but Putin has shown himself so adept in interviews with Keir Simmons and with Tucker Carlson, journalists across the Earth 1 and Earth 2 divide at tapping right into the vein of American politics and MAGA politics. And I wonder if you think Putin will bring up the jam that Trump finds himself in. 81% of all Americans, including a vast majority of Republicans and a majority of MAGA voters, think that Trump is hiding something when it comes to the Epstein files.
- [77:15]
Ali Velshi
Yeah, and this is, I think Tom's 100% right. This is the ultimate distraction to this whole thing because you'll remember from your time in the administration, meetings have to happen, right? We should be meeting with people who are adversaries and allies to sort things out. But there's been zero movement with Vladimir Putin on this. His, his requests are outlandish. The things he wants to do. He's met with Steve Witkoff five times. Five times. And I think he'd meet with him five more times because nothing happens when he meets with Witkoff. Now America comes away with nothing. We get no closer to peace. So once again, the White House has leaked out three things. One is that there's a 25% chance that nothing comes of this meeting. I mean, to signal that ahead of time is kind of amazing. Number two, that they're going to be talking about other things. Pete Hegson, lots of other people are there. It's unclear what they're talking about. And number three, that they're probably going to end up with another meeting. And number four, they haven't said it, but you can't have a deal if the other party's not there. So I think this has to fall into the category of distraction from Donald Trump's problems because there is no likelihood of this leading to something else. Nicole, if there were, you and I would be, we would embrace this wholeheartedly. We become number fifth and sixth people who are embracing Donald Trump for the Nobel Peace Prize. If he could get peace there, I would be supporting this and I would love to be proved wrong tonight. They're two hours into their meetings. They're probably another three hours of Donald Trump can keep his attention span on case. But I don't think we're coming out with a deal. And so unless he comes out with something that makes this distraction worthwhile on Monday, everybody's going to be sitting there thinking, wow, he had this summit with Vladimir Putin. After all these years, the first time they're meeting and we still came out with nothing. Maybe you are hiding something.
- [78:53]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. You guys are the best. Thank you so much for starting us off this hour. We'll all be watching this together. And I love that we've got 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 nominations for the Nobel Peace.
- [79:07]
Ali Velshi
He actually gets it done.
- [79:09]
Nicole Wallace
Exactly. We're on the record. Cameras rolling ahead for us, we will turn to our political panel and what Donald Trump does want us to talk about. We have to fit in a short break first, but we'll be right back. Try as he might, even a federal takeover of Washington, D.C. and a summit with a foreign dictator can't distract from the bipartisan backlash over Donald Trump's botched handling of the Jeffrey Epstein file. Rolling Stone is reporting that in recent weeks, Donald Trump has privately criticized the survivors and accusers of Jeffrey Epstein and their families, dismissing all of them as, quote, Democrats, while publicly it's a Republican lawmaker. On the other end of Trump's rage posting this week, Trump is now lashing out at Republican Congressman Thomas Massie for leading a bipartisan push to force the Department of Justice to release the files from its investigation into Jeffrey Epstein and co hosting a press conference next month on Capitol Hill where several of the Epstein survivors and victims will speak publicly about their abuse for the very first time. Joining our conversation is host of the Bulwark Podcast, MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller, and host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, President of the National Action Network. So Ravel Sharpton is here, Tim. I joked, but I'm not really kidding. I mean, Russia, if you're listening, release the Epstein files. Let's see how they feel about us. And if those appear as quickly as Hillary Clinton's emails did, Tim.
- [80:50]
Tim Miller
It's one of those kind of dark jokes, Nicole, because they definitely have some of them and who knows what else they have. As we watch this kind of clown show that we saw in Alaska, we're rolling up the red carpet for Vladimir Putin, literally. But I think to your broader political point about how no matter what Donald Trump does to try to change the subject, the Epstein subject is not going to go away. It may lose a little intensity from time to time, but it will come back. You mentioned that Massie will have that press conference next month. I spoke to Minority Leader Jeffries for the Bulwark podcast today and asked about this directly. What will you guys do with Epstein if you take the House back? And he was adamant that they would ensure that they released as much as they could, at least subpoena the doj, use the powers of subpoena that they would have then if they took back the House, and that he wouldn't care if that meant that there are, you know, some Democrats that are in the files that get implicated. So I thought that was a pretty declarative statement. So, look, this thing isn't going away no matter how much he wants it to.
- [81:55]
Nicole Wallace
What's interesting too, Tim, is how it's divided the media ecosystem that helped push Donald Trump over the finish line in November. Fox News has diverted, right. They're obedient. They've spent $800 million and they're still not good faith actors, even in terms of the facts as they present themselves. But the manosphere, I mean, I think the test for Joe Rogan and other folks in the manosphere is are you as big of a Grabman the you know what as Lindsey Graham and Mitch McConnell are, or are you going to stand by the things that you told your millions of listeners? Are you going to stay on this until the conspiracy theory is answered by the person in power who you helped put there? And I wonder where you see the stakes for MAGA influencers like Joe Rogan.
- [82:46]
Tim Miller
Yeah, sure. Well, you're right. Like the state media, it's not just Fox. Some others have sort of changed their tone. You know, Megyn Kelly was extremely aggressive initially and, and lately I've been noticing has kind of been lessening her focus on this. But here's the problem as far as the broader media ecosystem, right. With the manosphere, we'll just use Rogan as a stand in for a whole bunch of YouTube shows and podcasts that these guys went on. It makes it challenging to do it. Part of the reason that Trump and Vance were able to do those shows and where the Vice president Harris. Harris didn't. For example, one of the reasons was because Vice President Harris was worried about some of the topics they were going to bring up. And so that's how you get this caution. Now this is going to be a problem for Trump. Trump advance are going to run into that where they're like, if I go on the show, I know they're going to ask me about this, right? Like, it's not just going to be softballs anymore. We're going to have to answer for this. And they will actually take this is something they care about, so they'll take it seriously. It won't just be one one off. So I do think it, it fractures the coalition and kind of limits their ability to use them to advance their other political objectives. And I think that's meaningful too.
- [83:57]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I want to show you Rev, the accusers in their own words. One of them was here yesterday. And the real part of this story that'll never be sort of smeared as a hoax is that they're actual victims of actual heinous crimes. We'll have that come conversation on the other side of a break. Don't go anywhere. I feel releasing the files would be justice and not anyone trying to cover anything up. If other people sexually abused the women and girls like myself when I was in the hotel room, then I feel that they should be brought to justice and serve time. And why is Ghislaine Maxwell the only one serving time? I can't imagine other people not agreeing with me. We're back with Tim and the rep. That was Alicia Arden. She's one of the earliest people to go to law enforcement and accuse Jeffrey Epstein of sexual assault. She made the point. I spent about 40 minutes with her on the show yesterday. She said, you know, where was the MeToo movement for all of us? I think that's half of it. I think the other half of it is to really lay bare how hollow and lame the toxic masculinity is. Kash Patel said this quote, put on your big boy pants, House Republicans and tell us who the pedophiles are. This is such a reveal that behind the toxic masculinity was no masculinity at all. These are girls that were raped and molested by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And these men are doing nothing as Ghislaine Maxwell has moved into a practically zero security camp in Texas.
- [85:34]
Rev. Al Sharpton
Well, these are not only girls, they're underage girls in many cases. And to look at the whole scene across the board, you have a president who now wants to take over cities because policing needs to be more intense and he wants to fight crime. But they don't want to have files put out that there may be the revelation of others that committed crimes against underage young ladies. So you can't have it that both ways in the Washington. He wants to now fortify. He didn't want to fortify on January 6th when he watched on television them beating up law enforcement people and threatening to kill the vice president. So to say that they're glaring inconsistencies in Donald Trump is an understatement. It is, in my opinion, dangerous to come into cities that are democratic black mayors and take the policing from them, particularly when data shows that the rates are going down, even though we don't want any rates. It shows they must be doing something right if they brought the crime down. Why would you interrupt that and at the same time contrast that to you not having the same view when there's been outright crimes on the other side. That's close to you.
- [86:58]
Nicole Wallace
Rev, what is your view on Gavin Newsom's aggressive stance on taking new maps to the voters of California?
- [87:07]
Rev. Al Sharpton
I think it is a credible move. I think Governor Hochul and New York and other others are talking about doing moves. Democracy is at stake here. When you have people blatantly in broad daylight say we're going to redraw congressional district lines out of time because usually the time is every 10 years during the census. No, we're going to break it up half a decade because we need five seats. That begins the absolute fall of democracy that we're not even pretending anymore. It's one man, one vote is how I can corral, manipulate state and city legislatures to get the results I want. Because it's not that I want these people to vote there. I think that it is absolutely right for Newsom and Hochul and others to do what they can to save the democratic process.
- [88:03]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Miller and rev, thank you for helping us squeeze in some politics on this day. We're grateful to both of you. A quick break for us. We'll be right back.
- [88:11]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
How do you make sure you're covering what's important and, you know, without allowing Donald Trump to be the world's assignment editor, even though in many ways he is right, like, that's just the truth of it. And then there's this, you know, the people like, oh, you know, don't, don't talk about the federalizing of the police in D.C. it's a distraction from these other issues. And like, in some sense, I think you're right. But also it matters when the president decides he's the police chief of a city and what it harbor, what it, what the harbinger it is for, for.
- [88:37]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
What he could do in the future.
- [88:39]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
And, and we should talk about it because we need to win people over.
- [88:44]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
On our views about it and why.
- [88:45]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
It'S dangerous and why it doesn't represent an actual kind of tough on crime position, whatever the response is like, you have to kind of, you have to go to where the news is.
- [88:55]
Nicole Wallace
That was positive. America's John Lovett. He is my guest on the next episode of the Best People Podcast. He is a podcasting trailblazer. He was once President Barack Obama's secret weapon as a speechwriter. And as you just heard, he's brilliant in helping us understand exactly what the mission is in this political moment. He's also wickedly funny. You don't want to miss this one. Scan the QR code on your screen and subscribe to MSNBC Premium to listen to the conversation right now if you want to. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes all week long. Hi, I'm Angie Hicks, co founder of angie. One thing I've learned is that you buy a house, but you make it a home. And for decades, Angie's helped millions of homeowners hire skilled pros for the projects that matter. Get all your jobs done well@angie.com.