Claire McCaskill (2:13)

President Trump's handling of Iran is drawing concern from a majority of the American public. 54% disapprove, while 41% approve.

Narrator/Announcer (2:24)

I asked people, do you think the

Tom Nichols (2:25)

administration has clearly explained what the US and get a big number who said no?

Claire McCaskill (2:30)

Then of course there's the MAGA base, some of the most outspoken voices saying this goes against everything that President Trump campaigned on.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (2:38)

That promise to get the United States

Claire McCaskill (2:39)

out of foreign wars, not to engage in regime change.

Narrator/Announcer (2:44)

He campaigned on lowering gas prices but dismissed the spike.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (2:47)

Yeah, George, when I spoke with him, he is dismissing the economic fallout of this war. He often touts low gas prices as

Tom Nichols (2:54)

a reason that his economic policies are working. We know Americans are concerned about rising costs.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (2:58)

He now is losing that talking point.

Tom Nichols (3:00)

This is the biggest shortage and energy crisis we've had in global history.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (3:06)

In global history. The question now is whether or not Trump understands or even cares about his diminished standing among the American people. Part of that might have to do with the fundamental confusion inside the administration between the recent brilliant successes of our world class men and women of the military and the administration's lack of a broader strategy in Iran. From our friend Tom Nichols, writing in the Atlantic, quote, donald Trump is now pointing to these missions as if the excellence with which they have been conducted somehow constitutes a strategy in itself. He appears so enthralled by the execution of these missions that he has enlarged the goals of this war to include the complete destruction of the Iranian regime, after which he will, quote, make Iran great again. Whatever the case, the bottom is calling. Once again, Donald Trump appears intent on finding it. That is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. Staff writer at the Atlantic, contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the U.S. naval War College where he taught for more than two decades. Also joining us, political analyst former Senator Claire McCaskill is here. And political analyst and host of the Bulwark Podcast, Tim Miller is here as well. Tom Nichols, I started with your piece, Take us Through It. It's a brilliant read and probably the best guess at what Trump is attracted to as sort of that moth to flame.

Tom Nichols (4:32)

Yeah, he's attracted to the show. He's attracted to the television friendliness of it all. As I note in the article, he actually says to a reporter, what do you think of the performance? How do you like the performance? As if this is like a very special episode of the Apprentice or something. And he's like, and it's actually not a difficult thing to fall into. Other leaders have fallen into this problem of victory disease where you send in troops, they obliterate an objective. They seem to be operating at the top of their game. And you say, well, I must be winning. The problem is we don't know what Trump has defined as winning. He's given a few of my colleagues at the Atlantic did a great piece where they've counted at least 10 different rationales for this war. And so he's basically substituted all this amazing military performance by what is. By the US Military, Military, the best armed forces on the planet, and saying, well, see, that's proof that I must know what I'm doing. But that does not. One thing doesn't lead to the other. Being able to destroy a lot of stuff doesn't mean you know what you're doing, especially if you don't know where you're supposed to be going.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (5:41)

Tom Nichols, I want to make sure I have the right understanding of the administration's answer for now about both boots on the ground, troops on the ground, and a draft. Caroline Levitt told Maria Bartiromo that they're both on the table. Is that your understanding? And what does that mean now?

Tom Nichols (6:01)

I suspect that Levitt sort of breezed past the part about a draft, as you know, just not even within the realm of consideration. But they, but they keep ruling out, they keep not ruling out, boots on the ground. But then they say, well, it might be just a few boots and it might be special operators, it might be, you know, a small group. But at some point, you have to clarify what you're talking about and why you would do this. And this is where we just don't get answers. We ask things like, will there be boots on the ground? But we always should add to that. And if there are, for what? What is it that you think you're doing? This war? Are you, are you going to send them in just to get nuclear stockpiles, you know, uranium, destroy some particular facility? Are you going to go there to try to organize a resistance? Remember the first night of this war, Trump told the Iranian people to rise up, and he told the Iranian government to surrender. And for all these days, I keep asking, surrender to whom? Who's there to surrender to? So I think without that clarity, who knows whether we would put boots on the ground because we don't understand why we're there in the first place.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (7:11)

Yeah, I mean, Claire, to that point, Ayatollah Khamenei's son is the new leader of Iran, according to the Wall Street Journal and others. So to Tom's point, if you wanted to, I mean, how does that even. What is your understanding of the current objective?

Claire McCaskill (7:29)

Well, mine is just about as clear as yours. And that is, I have no understanding of what the objective is. I don't get it. What I said the other day to you on this program, what now? What now? It will not surprise me if Trump claims victory. But what they've done in Iran over the last few days is they have put in as their leader someone who is a mirror image of the leader, the horrible, repressive leader that was killed by the United States military. Not only is he a mirror image of the leader that was killed by the US Military, his entire family was killed by the US Military. And Trump has some idea that he's going to call him up and say, hey, Donald, what's up? Let's get together. They're going to do whatever they can do to bring pain to the United States of America. And this is not over by a long shot. And if they don't have a plan on what now, then it's not going to be good news for the American people in any way, economically or safety wise.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (8:39)

I want to bring Pete Hegseth into focus a little bit. Tim Miller, Let me show you how he answered this question about boots on the ground.

Tom Nichols (8:53)

Do we have any overt or covert forces inside Iran?

Tim Miller (8:57)

Now,

Tom Nichols (9:00)

I wouldn't tell you that if we did. Only reason I ask is earlier this week you said no. Is that still the answer? Yeah, that's still the answer.

Narrator/Announcer (9:09)

But we reserve the right.

Tom Nichols (9:11)

We would be completely unwise if we

Narrator/Announcer (9:13)

did not reserve the right to take any particular option, whether it included boots

Tom Nichols (9:17)

on the ground or no boots on the ground.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (9:20)

So, Tim, what's interesting to me is the body language, right. And I always wonder how people around the world are watching this. But first is a smirk. Then is, you know, well, ninny, ninny, ninny, I wouldn't tell you if I did. And then is, oh, yeah, I'll tell you no, but might be yes again, privately, I have no idea how he acts. All we have is what he puts out there. The brilliance and the confidence and the courage of the military are its own stunning thing. And I want to really cleave Pete Hegseth off of that in terms of his public utterances. That was disturbing in its weakness. I'm not going to tell you. But yeah, I will. I mean, what was that?

Tim Miller (10:05)

Yeah. And the smart gave away the whole game, right, Nicole? Like I'm not a body language expert and I was never going to be White House press secretary if any of my candidates had won. Because you, all the viewers right now can know what I think about Pete Hegsetz just looking at my face, right? And that's certain types of people. Pete was meant, I think, to be a weekend talk show host or co host rather. And I think that he was good at that. And he has an Expressive face. But it's like his market major told us all we need to know. Obviously we have covert boots on the ground there, there. Obviously he's lying. His response was a tell. And then as you said, it was kind of weak. His follow up response to that. He's not up for this. Luckily, as you mentioned, we have a lot of competent people underneath him. But you know, look, he also is even in Char is even running the show, right? And you know, his answer on in a separate clip of that interview was that this war is just getting started. Well, the President apparently called Weija at CBS today and said it might be over soon. So, you know, there is no strategy. So he can't offer a clear strategy. And you know, he has no kind of gravitas and experience to be a clear messenger in this. So he's not going to be. And what we have is just a very amateurish, childish person in charge of the department of War in a very serious time when we've already lost seven Americans and a bunch of people that we've wrongly killed in Iran. And I guess that would be my last comment on this. He's obviously lying on that. Maybe there's reason to lie about whether we have special forces there. There is no reason to lie about the fact that we are responsible for the death of 100 some odd children in southern Iran. And that's exactly what Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth did when they were asked about that yesterday.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (12:03)

I'm going to show you this because Donald Trump is obsessed with this program and watches it. This is SNL's depiction of Pete Hegseth.

Tom Nichols (12:15)

Now, a lot of the press have looks on their faces like duh. So now I'm going to be taking your questions and throwing them directly into a trash can. You Hanson brother, go. Secretary Haig said you said this war could wait. Wait, war, okay. Whoever called this a war, except maybe the President a couple times accidentally, okay, this is a war. Also, why do we have to put labels on everything? Okay, what are you, a high school girlfriend? Which I had. This isn't a war, okay? It's a situationship, right? We're just gonna hook up, we're gonna see where it goes, okay? If it feels good, we'll keep going. And if we get bored, we'll start hooking up with Cuba.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (13:01)

So it's funny, but it's also the actual policy. I mean, Lindsey Graham went on a Sunday show, told the story of how he coached Israel into doing what Rubio said we did go following Israel into war and said Cuba's next. What happens inside the military to the men and women of the military and their families, when this is how decisions of life and death are made? TOM Nichols

Tom Nichols (13:31)

Hegseth's not the first secretary of defense, didn't have fans inside the military. Don Rumsfeld wasn't very popular either. But I think the difference was that people took Rumsfeld seriously and that whether they liked him or not, or whether they thought he was a good secretary of defense or not, that when he spoke, he was somebody that you had to listen to and pay attention to. Here, the Secretary of defense is this kind of featherweight presence who comes out and he says a lot of dumb stuff, and he sounds like he talks like a meme off the Internet. He talks like he's right out of a bunch of teenagers posting stuff on the Internet. And I think that means that everyone has to look to somebody else, the President, Dan Kaine, General Kaine, to tell them exactly what's going on. And I think that's really a dangerous and unfortunate thing because this is the largest war we've been in in 20 years. And this is where you need a real secretary of Defense, somebody who can speak with authority, somebody who project confidence. I mean, I think Tim's point about, you know, and your point about the body language and about kind of the unseriousness and sort of the inability to get out of the weekend Fox host mode, you know, is really important because there are. There are thousands and thousands of people in the Defense Department and millions of people in this country and millions more around the world who want to know what the Secretary of Defense has to say about why we're in this war, what we're targeting, mistakes we may have made, successes we've had, and instead Hegseth is coming out and sort of fist pumping and doing bro speak. And it's not just embarrassing, but in the middle of a war, it's hazardous. It's a problem.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (15:29)

Tom, this isn't something that I've seen out there, but I want to ask you. One of the earliest things that Pete Hegseth did was to kick the press out. And one of the hallmarks of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the ongoing years that America was in those wars is that the men and women of the military had very tight relationships with the press corps that covered the Pentagon, and there was a pretty free flow of information, good, bad, and ugly. Do you have this sense that any of that is happening right now, that uniformed military has permission to speak with the press?

Tom Nichols (16:05)

Well, My friends and colleagues who cover the Pentagon are still covering the Pentagon. Pete Hegseth apparently thought that if you kick them all out of the building and replaced, replace them with, you know, kind of third string sycophantic hangers on, that somehow the coverage would change. But professional journalists still find a way to get people to talk to them. And yes, there, of course, there are still people who want to talk and share information, because we are the one thing Pete Hegseth doesn't get. We are all on the same side here. We are all Americans. But Hegseth, and I think this comes from Trump and his attitude. Hegseth thinks that anybody that isn't explicitly signed on as a member of the team and, you know, has taken the vow of loyalty is by definition an enemy and therefore can't be trusted. So when someone says, I'm not going to sign, you know, this ridiculous piece of paper that says that I will only report the Pentagon's version of everything, that's, that's immediately a sign for people like Hegseth that you are the enemy. But that there are a lot of other perfectly, you know, patriotic Americans who don't think that way, who are willing to speak to other Americans because again, they consider we're all, we're all on the same side. We're all countrymen and women here. And so of course they can still do their job, but it makes it harder. It just makes it harder for everybody. And it means that when Hegseth gets out there and garbles his message, it's even worse because there isn't anybody there to kind of ask him to clarify it or go through it with him. And so we get the kind of conversation we're having now about what the hell is Pete Hegseth talking about?

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (17:44)

Yeah, Claire, I mean, I thought it was stunning at the time that he was confirmed that he was opposed by bipartisan members of the Senate. You see some of that coming home to roost, why even some Republicans voted against him.

Claire McCaskill (17:58)

Yeah, there's not a great deal of confidence in Pete Hegseth anywhere in America, maybe, except that calcified 20%. That is MAGA world. And I think some of them are scratching their head at this point because they didn't sign up for forever wars in the Middle East. And you know, Pete hence has to be looking over his shoulder at Lindsey Graham. I mean, I've watched Lindsey. I knew Lindsey would be party dancing over the fact that we bombed Iran. But what has surprised me is his one man campaign to try to heighten the tensions. And within the last 48 hours, not only has he threatened Cuba that I guess we're gonna go after them because we can. And today he threatened Saudi Arabia. Now I will be interested to see how Trump handles Lindsey Graham threatening Saudi Arabia because Saudi Arabia is his cash cow. They've made a lot of money off Saudi Arabia. The Trump family has billions of dollars they've made off Saudi Arabia. So it'll be very interesting to see if Lindsey getting out ahead of Pete Hegseth and ahead of the president and threatening the countries in the Middle east because they haven't done enough in terms of bombing Iran and going after Iran. Very interesting to see how this plays out. It has echoes of Kristi Noem.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (19:19)

Yeah. All right. No one's going anywhere. I'll show you the poll numbers we talked about at the beginning. We'll also talk about what Claire's talking about, that stunning new reporting about Lindsey Graham who reportedly did told Benjamin Netanyahu exactly how to manipulate Donald Trump, what to say to him to get him to go to war in Iran, and as Claire said, how he's now proudly, publicly cheerleading for a war with Cuba. We'll bring you that new reporting and the angry response it's getting from key figures in the Magaverse coming up. And then White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Narrator/Announcer (19:57)

If you like sharp political analysis but want historical perspective too, check out the Signal award winning podcast the Future of Our Former Democracy. Produced by more equitable democracy, the new season examines parallels between the rise of Nazi Germany and today's current political moment. And the lessons the US can learn about how Germany rebuilt its democracy to prevent extremism from taking power again. Episodes unpack how far right movements operate in modern day Germany and in the United States. They reveal why America's system has enabled minority rule, while Germany's proportional representation model has limited extremist power. Through sound, rich storytelling, personal narratives and expert interviews, the show challenges what democracy can be and explores bold ideas for a more equitable future. So don't miss out. Follow the future of our former democracy wherever you listen to podcasts today. It's tax season. And at LifeLock, we know you're tired of numbers, but here's a big one you need to billions. That's the amount of money and refunds the IRS has flagged for possible identity fraud. Now here's another big number, 100 million. That's how many data points LifeLock monitors every second. If your identity is stolen, we'll fix it, guaranteed. One last big number. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com specialoffer for the threats you can't control. Terms apply.

Tom Nichols (21:24)

Bubba Wallace here from 2311 Racing. You know what's slower than a pace car waiting at the car wash? That's when I fire up Chumba Casino. It turns these slow minutes into fast fun. With new games every week, you'll never get bored. Next time you're stuck in the slow lane.

Narrator/Announcer (21:39)

Speed up with Chumba.

Tom Nichols (21:41)

Play now@chumbacasino.com let's Chumbo. No purchase necessary.

Narrator/Announcer (21:45)

VGW Group void where prohibited by law. CTNC is 21 plus sponsored by Jumbo Casino.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (21:54)

Donald Trump has struggled to explain why we are at war with Iran and what our objectives are. And now the Wall Street Journal is reporting that some Democrats and Republicans are pointing the finger at Republican Senator Warhawk Lindsey Graham. According to that new report, Lindsey Graham coached Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu into how to lobby Donald Trump for action and appeared, quote, almost giddy about persuading Trump to bomb Iran, but not particularly concerned about what was next in Iran. As for what he has planned next for Donald Trump, Lindsey Graham has an idea and a hat to go along with it. Watch.

Tom Nichols (22:27)

I'm in Miami.

Angelo Carusone (22:28)

You see this hat?

Tom Nichols (22:30)

Free Cuba. Stay tuned. The liberation of Cuba is upon us. It's just a matter of time now. You see this hat? Make Iran great. President Trump said the only way to make Iran great is for the people to take over.

Tim Miller (22:43)

We're marching through the world.

Tom Nichols (22:45)

Were cleaning out the bad guys. Donald Trump is resetting the world in a way nobody could have dreamed of a year ago.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (22:52)

We're back with Tom, Claire, and Tim. So, Tim, Lindsey Graham for a long time has been a fool, but now he's proving to be a manipulative one. Let me read this from the Wall Street Journal's reporting. Quote, as Lindsey Graham tried to sell Donald Trump on bombing Iran, he liked to play a little word association game with the president. Quote, I say Franklin Roosevelt, what do you say? The Republican senator from South Carolina asked. The correct answer, quote, you have nothing to fear but fear itself. As he ticked through memorable presidential phrases, Lindsey Graham asked Donald Trump what his phrase would be. Trump said he didn't know. Lindsey Graham recalled, quote, keep protesting. Help is on the way. Graham suggested Senator Graham said he was already talking with Trump about further military interventions in Lebanon and potentially Cuba, which he says will happen soon. The seriousness of this isn't just that we're at war with Iran right now. It's that a Republican senator only elected by the people in South Carolina and a foreign leader conspired to manipulate Donald Trump into feeling like his legacy would be quote, keep protesting, help is on the way. That's what Donald Trump posted on social media to the people of Iran about five, six weeks ago. Your thoughts on this Wall Street Journal report.

Tim Miller (24:21)

So many. I don't think that quote is going to be the one they remember Donald Trump for the keep protesting quote in part because after that quote, the Iranian regime massacred like tens of thousands of Iranians while we sat on the sidelines and did nothing. And we eventually came in but after the protests were basically over. So I don't think that pitching Donald Trump as the savior there is really going to work. My other thoughts about that is it's pretty alarming that a senator like treats the president of the United States like he's a 10 year old and plays little games with them to manipulate him to try to get him to do what he wants. I mean I do this with the girls I coach on the eight year old basketball team and I feel okay about that because they're eight and you know, I'm trying to get them to focus on the game. But it's pretty alarming that that strategy seems to be working for the president of the United States when it comes to war and peace. And I just as the broader Lindsey Graham agenda I just cars on the table. I, I don't have any, I don't have no love for Maduro. I don't have any love for the communists in Cuba or the Ayatollah in Iran. And I support it and support the right of people and all those countries to be free and and was Inspired by John McCain and others and Claire others advocacy on that in the past. But like at a practical level, like we've learned a lot of lessons the last quarter century about the limits of our abilities there. And over the past three months, you know, I don't know that Lindsey Graham has a lot of wins to point to as far as creating more freedom for people places. Right. And we traded one communist dictator for another in Venezuela and in Iran. So far we've traded one Khomeini for another Khomeini and killed a bunch of girls at a school along the way. So I think it's pretty concerning that Lindsey Graham is like full speed ahead and now we're going to look into Lebanon while the Iran mess is still ongoing.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (26:19)

Let me show you what Tucker Carlson had to say because it's important this idea that Trump can be manipulated is clear in how Tucker Carlson is talking publicly, too. He says he tried to talk to him. He tried to talk him out of it. I sometimes wonder, having worked in the White House, what replaced a National Security Council and a cabinet. This free for all is what replaced it. Here's Tucker Carlson.

Tom Nichols (26:50)

So I call over there to see, call someone who knows him. I said, I'm just going to fly up anyway and tell him this because I think it's so important. And the person says, don't bother because he's being shown polling that this war is like a 9010 win for him. And I said, I don't know where that polling is coming from. It's like, you know, I guess you could make any kind of poll. And it's, he's watching Fox News, which is telling him the same thing, and he's getting fake polling. I guess they're only polling Sean Hannity's viewers or something. And so I'm not sure that there's a sense, as if this was yesterday because I was getting so agitated and worried. I don't think that there's a sense that this is unpopular. I think there's an information vacuum here.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (27:37)

I have never said this before, but I'm going to say it here with all of you for the first time. I said the same thing as Tucker Carlson just said there. I have noticed. And Stephanie Rules reporting from the State of the Union lunch made this clear to me. All presidents end up in a bubble, but they spend the whole time in the bubble trying to punch out of them. And they do OTRs and they do silly stuff to sort of have interactions with normal people. I don't think real information is getting to Donald Trump, not from the 65% of Americans who disapprove of him, but from the 35 who do. Because in that 35 who do, the vast majority of Republicans who nominated him three times oppose, oppose war in the Middle East. And I wonder, Tim, how you think he got so insulated from maga?

Tim Miller (28:29)

Yeah, that's a good question. I think part of it is he's not doing the rallies. He wasn't actually meeting with the people in the rallies, but he was getting real time feedback from the audience. And we saw this running back to 2016. He was adjusting his message, he was adjusting his shtick. He was seeing what worked and didn't work. And sometimes this had an adverse effect on what would have been better, by the way, like, for example, during COVID or after Covid, when he's talking about the vaccines. And he started to get booed in Alabama, I kind of remember. And stop talking about Operation Warp Feed after that. Right. So that was an example of him being getting in touch with the base and then pulling back on something that he shouldn't have pulled back on. But this is maybe the inverse of that. But I think not doing the rallies is part of it. Part of it is I, I do think that, you know, I'm saying this for other people, but he feels like he's a little bit on a hot streak. A lot of people told him that the other stuff wasn't going to work, that he wasn't going to win again, that he wasn't going to do well in Venezuela, that the tariffs were going to kill the economy. And even though there is real damage happening, he isn't experiencing it or feeling it. And so I think that is part of it too. And I think the staffing is part of it. He's chosen a different type of staff to have around him. This is something we all saw coming for Trump 2.0. So I do think it's a combination of things, but I think it's certainly true that he's getting less information than he was in the first term.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (29:45)

All right. And I'll show you those poll numbers and the gravitational pull downward on them. No one's going anywhere to sneak in a short break. Our friend Angelo Carason will join the conversation in progress on the other side. Stay with us.

Narrator/Announcer (29:59)

Sling is the live TV service that puts you in charge. Choose your plan. Orange for sports and entertainment favorites. Blue for news and reality. Or select for the essentials. Only pay for the stuff you actually watch and pause your subscription anytime. Because paying for TV you're not watching, that's just rude. No long term contracts, no nonsense. Pick your plan, add what you want. Sling lets you do that. Visit sling.com to learn more.

Tom Nichols (30:25)

Tyler Redick here from 2311 Racing. You think racing's tough? Try getting your friends to agree on dinner plans. I'm in. Wait maybe what time again? While they figure that out, I rev up Chumba Casino play on your browser. No downloads necessary. No need to negotiate. Why wait on them when you can spin for yourself? Play now@chumbacasino.com let's Chumba. No purchase necessary.

Narrator/Announcer (30:50)

VGW Group voidware prohibited by law. CTC's 21 plus sponsored by Jumba Casino. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to. Don't Know the difference between matte paint finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is with thumbtack. You don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download. Today

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (31:18)

I'm going to bring into our conversation the president of Media Matters for America, Angelo Carazone is here. Tom, Claire and Tim are still with us. Angelo, we have talked endlessly about narrative dominance. Here's how Laura Ingraham and Marjorie Taylor Greene have reacted over the last couple days to the war in Iran. This is Laura Ingraham, quote, this is about the bombing of a girls school in Iran by the U.S. military. Quote. If true, this is horrific news and the US military will have to address this publicly. Proximity of military compound obviously a factor, but our weapons also have pinpoint accuracy. Reappping what I said last week, the administration must wrap its investigation and address this head on horrible unintended tragedy of this war. Marjorie Taylor Greene had this to say about the war in Iran. Quote, the peace president and founder and chair without term limits of the Board of Peace denies killing Iranian children even though tragically we did. We have such a great military filled with the greatest among us. This war should not be happening. It's unfair to everyone. Why are we bombing Iranian children? Does it make the Iranian people thankful that we are liberating them when we are bombing their children Again? This is not a neutral observer. This is Laura Ingram of Fox News Primetime and Marjorie Taylor Greene.

Angelo Carusone (32:35)

Yeah, but I mean elsewhere on Fox, Jesse Watters and Lawrence Jones for example are basically saying oh well you know, too bad, so sad, not our problem. This is sort of the price of war and it happens and, and to move on. And so, and I think that gets back to the original point you were making which is that there's not a really clear cut narrative coming out of the right wing more broadly. There just isn't. The the one, you know, little bit of through line that's there is that they're mad. You know there's some of that that percolating anti Semitism. The same things and the same fault line that we saw come to a head last October with Tucker Carlson and Nick Fuentes and the Heritage foundation that is is sort of bubbling up and seems to increasingly demonstrate the power of sort of the groipers and then sort of that really deep bleed in antisemitism within the right. But otherwise you're getting this confusing message if you're a FOX viewer, your head is spinning right now because there are moments where the war strategy is being questioned, the idea behind it. There are these individual instances where everything tells you it's absolutely wrong and terrible and a tragedy and we should get to the bottom of it, like this bombing of the school. And yet within the same hour, you can see the opposite. So it's confusing.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (33:50)

I mean. Tom Nichols, Donald Trump's lowest approval ratings are on the question of the economy, on inflation and cost of living. He has just a 36% approval rating, which is lower than his overall approval. Actually, Iran is the lowest approval rating there, 27%. What do you make of the cascade of headlines today about an energy crisis the likes of which the country hasn't lived through since the 70s?

Tom Nichols (34:19)

Once again, I don't think Trump or his team really thought this through. They assumed that there would be a rally around the flag effect. They assumed people would start talking about Epstein, which I think Trump, I still think is at the root of about, you know, three quarters to 90% of everything Donald Trump does at this point. They thought that they were going to be able to control the messaging, which they can't, in part because they just don't seem to have any grownups out there who can talk about issues of war and peace like adults. And I think if that happens, if this, I mean, you know, we're going to have some kind of an energy crunch just even if things ended tomorrow because of the ripple effect from so many other things that have already happened. And I think they're just counting on, you know, I'm not sure what they're counting on. They're going to blame Joe Biden or they're going to say that this was, you know, corporate greed or something, you know, and it's always their own actions. They're always ending up living with the consequences of their own actions and then trying to offload them to other people. The real question is, will MAGA world, will it matter? Because every time I see these polls, I always kind of factor out that there's just like 30% of the public that no matter what Donald Trump does, they're going to tell a pollster, yes, I support him. So those polls are actually much worse because there's a kind of hard knot of the cult, this cult of personality around Trump that doesn't, that the answers aren't real in that sense, that they don't care what they're being asked. They just say, yes, I support Donald Trump, but if things really do start to go south, how much Will any of that even get dented? Because I think what you're going to find is that everybody else is, is going to be asking questions about, you know, why is gas suddenly so expensive again? What happened to the price of everything we were promised? No foreign wars and cheaper commodities, cheaper groceries, cheaper energy. And none of that's going to happen. The opposite of all that's going to happen. So, you know, it'll be interest how much that core support gets corroded as other Americans just abandon this in droves.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (36:28)

Claire, it is interesting. There is no piece of what Trump campaigned on this third time that he has not betrayed. Releasing the Epstein files. And now you've got the right wing podcast guys saying, oh, what did he think we were? Babies? Clearly. Yes, he thought you were foolish babies. And that's why he lied to you about the Epstein files. Next question on the economy. He calls affordability a, quote, Democratic hoax. So standing in front of melting meat at Bedminster, that was a lie, too. That happened in the summer of 2024. And now he says that is a, quote, hoax perpetrated by the Democrats. No, forever wars, which was actually the most consistent promise through three presidential campaigns. He just meant the ones that he didn't start. He loves this one. He can't stop talking about, as Tom Nichols said, did you see the performance? And then I guess the last piece is immigration, but he just fired the head of dhs, so even that is not exactly going as he marketed it. Do you think there's any point at which his supporters say it's all been a scam?

Claire McCaskill (37:34)

Well, we're not there yet, but I think it could happen as gas prices continue to climb. I remember when I was campaigning, my team always wanted to give me a bunch of facts every week about what was going on with the price of everything, a lot of which I already knew because I actually went to the grocery store. But I finally said to him, just quit giving me anything but gas prices, because gas prices affect everything in America in terms of how much it costs. And it is where people who are stretched get stretched beyond the breaking point. So this is a big problem for him. And the other thing that's a real signal here that he's in trouble is the fact that J.D. vance and Marco Rubio have kind of disappeared. I have not seen JD Vance out there since they bombed Iran. And so I think there's some calculation going on with those people who want to replace Donald Trump in the Oval Office that they don't want to be seen. Like Lindsey Graham is being seen right now as the go team. And by the way, note to Lindsey Graham, if you're really close to Bibi, you might let him know that bombing all the oil facilities in Iran is probably not the way to bring down gas prices on a global basis. It's one thing to cut off Iran and the despots they are in terms of the way they use their oil to leverage terror around the world. It's another thing to cut production of oil by a third worldwide and not have an economic calamity on your hands.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (39:15)

All right, no one's going anywhere. We have to sneak in a short break, everyone. We'll be right back. On the other side, Donald Trump is now refusing to sign any legislation until the so called Save America act passes in the Senate, where it faces an uphill battle and criticism for its authoritarian nature. Donald Trump is literally promising to not do his job because even amid a war in Iran, threats of the next conflict, tanking stocks, skyrocketing prices for everything, including gas, Donald Trump's position is that making voting more difficult, quote, supersedes everything else. We're back with our panel, Angela. That paired with the search at the Arizona election office, sort of gives away the game for the midterms.

Angelo Carusone (40:03)

Yeah, it certainly does. And I also think it reveals something else that's, that sort of validates a lot of the discussion that you've already been having, which gets to his unpopularity here. Right. Because there's not enough, you know, if he had narrative dominance, if everybody was fully behind him, there'd be a lot more discussion about the SAVE act right now. And I think in the comment that you pointed out where you said he wasn't going to sign any bills, he said something else that I thought was notable, which is that, oh, and by the way, there needs to be some restrictions here on gender reassignment surgery and some other anti trans measures. And that's kind of like getting a really bad meal and then putting a bunch of salt on it. It's like he's going to an old standby that he thinks is going to activate the base and saying, oh, and it's not just to say back, now we also need to, we also need to target trans people. And part of that is to try to reignite the discussion around it. Even Benny Johnson when he was saying, you know, the war is unpopular, but maybe this was part of some third dimensional chess that Trump was deploying in order to drive the SAVE act through. I think part of this sort of the stumbling and his weird behavior around this and these efforts to kickstart more energy into it are a reflection of actually not just how weak he is politically, but to me, the thing that's more important is how much he is able to be a conductor for that chorus of this, you know, constellation of right wing media entities. Because that's really where Hispanic his political power comes from. And even if the laws of political gravity haven't applied to him yet, he actually isn't able to get the kind of attention for it. So then you start to see this thing in Arizona. You know, according to some people that have been out there talking on these right wing radio, there's other states coming, but it doesn't have the same pop because it only really works if everybody's sort of in on the story and is willing to sort of backfill his lies and his narrative for him. And people just aren't willing to do that right now.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (41:50)

Tim, there's something that's so lame about cheating in public. I mean, whether or not it's all out of weakness or not, this is still his field on which Democrats are playing. And I wonder, like, how weak does he have to get before Democrats say, we're not playing his dumb game anymore, let's go play this game. I mean, what is your sense of whether or not there's a tipping point for all of his bs?

Tim Miller (42:15)

Well, I mean, I think we're kind of. He's sliding down politically and this is kind of a desperate effort. You say weak. I think desperate would be another way to put it. He said he's talking right now. I was looking during the break and he mentioned the same thing, the SAVE act, and said basically, I don't have to quote in front of me, but essentially this is how we're going to win the midterms and he's not, not hiding the ball on it. And he believes that creating these highly restrictive voting laws and trying to inject trans issues back into the conversation is the path to win the midterms. And I don't think it's going to work out for him. So they might want to go back to plan B or I guess it'd be more like plan E or F at this point on. On how to stop his political problems. Because I don't think this is it. I just add one more thing. You know, just unfortunately you have to pretend to take him seriously at some point. He is the president. Like the threat to not sign any more bills, like you called it not doing his job, which is true. But it's also not doing his job in the context of right now we're in the middle of a war or as JD Vance called it today, a conflict. And, and we also have a DHS shut down. So there was a Claire can speak this. There was a bomb threat at the Kansas City airport yesterday. Like there's very serious stuff. Like they have to pass the DHS funding bill. They have to have a war funding bill in theory. And for him to be like, no, we can't do that until you pass my I'm going to try to cheat in the elections bill first is pretty insane given the seriousness of what is in front of us right now, holding

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (43:43)

the country hostage at a time of war so he can rig the midterms perfectly put. Angelo Carazone, thank you for joining us. Tom Nichols, Tim Miller, Claire McCaskill, thank you all for spending the hour with me. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. TOM nichols, Donald Trump, as Tim astutely pointed out, had mentioned the SAVE act in remarks. He's now supposed to be taking some questions from reporters at his resort in Miami. Right now. He's just talking at them. What would you ask?

Tim Miller (44:19)

Well,

Tom Nichols (44:21)

if I were could get a question through about the SAVE Act, I would ask why he's so convinced that Republicans are going to lose so many races that he thinks he needs this because you don't push this kind of thing when you think you're going to win. This is the kind of thing you do. I think it was Tim who pointed out is kind of an act of desperation here and you're asking a lot of other Republicans and you know, maybe this is something I would ask him. How much, how much are you asking other Republicans to take damage to pass this unpopular idea just to save some of the Republicans in some of these shaky districts. But also, you know, the other question we should probably ask is aren't you supposed to be running a war? Aren't you launch, you know, busy at

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (45:08)

this moment, accurately ever seem to be busy, Tom. I think we're going to let our folks listen into this.

Tom Nichols (45:17)

Thousand pound bombs to destroy missile launchers all over Iran and buried deep under Iranian soil. In many cases, the soil was no match. And we're also annihilating the manufacturing base that the regime uses to build drones and missiles at a rate that nobody thought was possible. We're knocking them out. We know where they all are. We're knocking them out very quickly. Tyler redic here from 2311 Racing. Game night's fun until someone spends five minutes lining up one shot.

Tim Miller (45:49)

Chalk.

Tom Nichols (45:50)

Breathe. Rechock. Still aiming. While they figure it out, I fire up Champa Casino. I can spin anywhere, anytime.

Host/Interviewer (Nicole Wallace) (45:57)

And there's always a new social casino game every week.

Tom Nichols (46:00)

Spins happen way faster than that shot. Waitings for amateurs play now@chumbacasino.com let's jumba.

Narrator/Announcer (46:07)

No purchase necessary VGW Group Void where prohibited by law. CTNC's 21+ sponsored by Jumba Casino.