← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“The power of the judiciary”
00:46:10
June 22, 2026; 4pm: Nicolle Wallace and friends cover the breaking news of a judge rebuking the Trump Justice Department for issuing subpoenas to Minnesota officials, including Gov. Tim Walz, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, and others in response to the state’s reaction to ICE presence in Minneapolis earlier this year.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:04]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. Happy Monday. A blistering rebuke for Donald Trump's retribution campaign from what former FBI Director Jim Comey on this program coined, quote, the last standing leg on the three legged stool of our democracy. That would of course be the federal judiciary. A federal judge today quashing subpoenas from the Trump DOJ to Minnesota elected officials. They include Minnesota's Governor Tim Walz, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry and others. This move all but crushes an investigation launched during the height of that brutal and violent occupation of the city of Minneapolis. It of course led to the deaths of two American citizens, Renee Nicole Goode, a mother, and Alex Preddy, a VA nurse. In a ruling dated June 17 but unsealed earlier today, Judge Patrick Schultz, a former clerk to conservative Judge Antonin Scalia and appointed to the bench by former President George W. Bush, writes this quote, initiating a criminal investigation in order to harass political opponents or to coerce them into taking official action, particularly official action that the federal government cannot directly require those political opponents to, is a blatantly unlawful and unethical use of the grand jury process. The only question then is whether the challenged subpoenas were issued for one of those forbidden purposes. The court has no doubt that they were. The judge goes on from there. It only gets worse for Trump. He calls out the Trump administration for wielding the DOJ as a weapon for Donald Trump's political purposes. The Bush appointed judge writes this quote, the subpoenas were A part of a broader campaign to coerce state and local officials in Minnesota to assist the Trump administration in its enforcement of immigration laws. And of course, this campaign played out against the backdrop of the Trump administration's well established history of using criminal investigations to retaliate against and pressure the president's political and personal adversaries. The Justice Department has not weighed in, but in a statement, Minnesota Governor Tim Waltz did. He said this. Today's ruling is a victory for the rule of law and for our democracy. I am proud to have joined Minnesotans in exercising our fundamental American freedoms, freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, to disagree with our government. These rights are enshrined in our Constitution and they are what makes America great. An independent judiciary is a pillar of our democracy. It is one reason why the US has been that shining city on the Hill for nearly 250 years. The U.S. justice Department is pursuing criminal investigations into the president's political opponents. This case was just one example of that. But we're seeing daily reminders of this administration's lawlessness in Minnesota and all around the country. We all must continue to seek justice and and uphold the rule of law. That breaking news of a judge ruling that the Trump DOJ has dramatically overreached in its pressure campaign against Minnesota elected officials who resisted the administration's deadly immigration policies is where we start today. Former DOJ pardon attorney Liz Oyer is back with us. She was fired by Trump's DOJ after refusing to reinstate actor Mel Gibson's gun rights. She has a new podcast that's launching today. It is perfectly named, quote, is this really legal? A question I ask her every time she's here. Also joining us, Puck News senior political columnist, national affairs analyst John Heilman's back with us. Also joining us, Scott McFarlane. He's the chief Washington correspondent for Midas Touch. So, Liz, today you don't have to answer that question for me because a Bush appointed Scalia clerk who looked at this case said, no, it wasn't legal. And I believe there was reporting in the New York Times and NPR and elsewhere that this DOJ push to investigate and prosecute Governor Walz and Mayor Fry and other Democrats led to mass resignations in the U.S. attorney's office. But a judge seems to have those purged prosecutors backs in saying that the whole thing was illegal. Explain the significance.
- [05:30]
Liz Oyer
This is really significant, Nicole, for a number of reasons. One is because as you said, this is a very respected conservative judge who's been around for a long time, who is not Tolerating this misuse of the subpoena power by the Trump administration. Two, it is significant because there is a very high legal bar to block a subpoena. A subpoena is an investigative tool. You don't have to have evidence of guilt. You just have to have a good faith basis to investigate the possible commission of a crime, to issue a subpoena. This is saying the Justice Department cannot even meet that bar. And in fact, he found very clearly in a stinging rebuke that the Justice Department issued these subpoenas for improper purposes, specifically to harass and retaliate against Democrat elected officials in the state of Minnesota, and that the tone of it is just very clear. He says that there is a wealth of evidence that shows that the Trump administration issued these subpoenas in bad faith. And if you remember back to that time, that's a time when Tod, she's now trying to become the Attorney General, was out there accusing Tim Waltz and Jacob Fry of being terrorists. He used the word terrorist in a tweet, saying that he's coming for them. And that's not a threat, it's a promise. And this just really shows the lie to all of that. There was no there there. It was all a charade that was being done for political reasons to harass the president's political opponents. And this very respected conservative judge has shut it down.
- [07:03]
Nicole Wallace
Liz, I think it's not the first time. Right. I think that the investigation was stopped at the same juncture into Jerome Powell. So I think this is the second time. We're at a very early stage of an intended political prosecution. A judge has said, I don't think so. What does that mean? That judges are looking at Todd Blanche and saying, you're not even acting like a normal Justice Department?
- [07:28]
Nicole Hong
Yeah, it's.
- [07:29]
Liz Oyer
It's interesting. Todd Blanche said at his last confirmation hearing, he looked Thom Tillis in the eye when he was undergoing a hearing to be confirmed as the Deputy Attorney General and said that he would not allow the Justice Department to pursue any revenge prosecutions under his watch. Tillis said, you promise not even a whiff of a political investigation? And Blanche said, I can commit to that. And since then, we have seen that the Justice Department has been totally politicized. What they are doing is they are using the machine of justice to punish Donald Trump's political enemies. And the point is not even to get criminal convictions. They don't even need to bring charges, as we saw in the case of Jerome Powell, this case in Minnesota. They are just using tools of investigations to harass the people on the receiving end. It is a tremendous punishment to be on the other side of a frivolous, meritless criminal investigation. It is incredibly time consuming. It is incredibly costly. It's incredibly stressful. So they're doling out punishment without having any good faith basis to believe that they can even secure a conviction of a crime, which is a total misuse and abuse of the justice system.
- [08:43]
Nicole Wallace
Heilman, you were in Minneapolis. Tensions could not be, could not have been higher. At the moment, however this chapter in American political history ends, it will be a turning point. Either the high watermark of resistance in America or the match that lit the country's courage. It inspired artists and athletes to speak out for the very first time during his second term. Bruce Springsteen joined your friend Tom Morello for a concert there, unveiled streets of Minneapolis. The Minnesota Timberwolves became the first professional sports team, maybe not the first, but one of the first in the second term to speak out against Trump policies. When they held a moment of silence for Renee. Nicole, good. I think it was before Alex Preddy was killed and someone chanted anti ice stuff and people applauded. I mean, it could not be a bigger point in the story. And to have an action that they sought to take at that high water mark of their power and bullying prowess, rebuke so completely by a Scalia clerk is just stunning.
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John Heilman
Stunning and gratifying. Nicole, I think for those of us like Jim Comey, who, who believe that the judiciary is the last, you know, is the one remaining leg on the stool that you cited at the beginning of the, of the segment here, you
- [10:12]
Scott McFarlane
know, but I do want to.
- [10:14]
John Heilman
And so, yes, stunning. And, you know, the notion that the rapass from the Justice Department about, you know, about this judge who is a Scalia clerk and also a George W. Bush appointee, practicing kind of left wing insurrectionist lawfare against the Trump administration is just laughable, like so many things that they say about anybody who rules against them.
- [10:39]
Scott McFarlane
But I do want to go back
- [10:40]
John Heilman
to something that Liz just said a second ago, which is when I was there, I stopped by City hall and sat down with the mayor, with Mayor Fry and talked to him about what it was like to be, to learn, you know, that in the, in the middle of all of that conflict in, in Minneapolis and in Minnesota, Minneapolis specifically, and in Minnesota more broadly, that he was being targeted for, for criminal investigation. And, you know, I will say he was resolute. He was confident that he would get this outcome, that this, eventually the courts would be on, on his side and on the other public official side who were sides who were being investigated.
- [11:16]
Scott McFarlane
But to Liz's point, it was, I
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John Heilman
would say, that some of these investigations were undertaken almost after the administration knew that they had sort of lost the battle of Minneapolis and were kind of in retreat, but launched these investigations from their point of view as a win win, which was, well, if, if we're somehow allowed to go ahead with this investigation, we'll be able to investigate and torment these people unjustifiably well into the future. Maybe we'll even get some convictions. And if more likely our investigations are ruled to be illegal, we will still have have fired a warning shot across the bow of any public official in any future state that decides to stand up and do what's right, do what's protected. And so I think that it's not to say this isn't a clear victory for the cause of right and for the cause of the resistance here, but
- [12:11]
Scott McFarlane
it's just to note that even in
- [12:14]
John Heilman
defeat, in this instance, in this battle, the administration is still trying to fight a longer war, which is to try to create an atmosphere of fear and intimidation. Even in losing, it's trying to let people know down the line that they will still come at them guns blazing. I mean that metaphorically, not necessarily literally, although in some cases literally, too. They will come at them guns blazing, politically and legally, if they decide to stand up to Donald Trump. And that is something that other mayors and other governors around the country, even as they admire what happened in Minneapolis and in Minnesota, they took note of that. I'm sure every governor and mayor who is worried about ICE incursions going forward understands what the stakes are now more clearly than they did before.
- [13:01]
Nicole Wallace
No doubt. And look, we cover the six Democratic lawmakers who made the video telling men and women of the military to ignore illegal orders. They were harassed. A grand jury refused to indict them. But for every sort of mayor and governor and senator who has a platform and can tell their story, there are likely countless others who can't. I want to just remind everyone what Mayor Fry said, who John's talking about that so irritated Donald Trump
- [13:36]
John Heilman
to ice get the Minneapolis, we do not want you here. Your stated reason for being in this city is to create some kind of safety, and you are doing exactly the opposite. People are being hurt. Families are being ripped apart. Long term, Minneapolis residents that have contributed so greatly to our city, to our culture, to our economy are being terrorized. And now somebody is dead. That's on you. And it's also on you to leave.
- [14:14]
Nicole Wallace
So, Scott McFarlane, the mayor, had an impact on people's sort of, I won't say fearlessness, because I don't know if he did this afraid or not afraid. But their willingness to speak out against Donald Trump, it also had a dramatic impact on Donald Trump's approval rating on one of the issues that sent him back to the White House, and that's immigration. Before Chicago and Minneapolis, Trump had relatively high marks on immigration somewhere in the 40s and 50s, after it was down to the low 30s. I think that's where it remains now. Talk about, though, the hollowing out of the DOJ offices in Minnesota as a result of this desire to prosecute people like the mayor and others that we may not know about, whose names may not be well known, and the long time it takes for people like that to sort of endure the specter of criminal investigation, to receive a ruling like today's from the federal judge.
- [15:14]
John Heilman
A reminder, Mayor Fry said those things to Cole 17 days before Alex Preddy was shot and amplified for President Trump. I reported in the spring that there was a shortage of prosecutors in the U.S. attorney's office in Minnesota. They had hollowed out that office either by negligence or by deliberate actions inside the Department of Justice that caused a problem, a staffing problem, a case problem. But I'm really struck, Nicole, by page 17 of Judge Schilch's opinion, in which he notes all the things, all the unfiltered, unspooled utterances of Donald Trump and his allies that led the judge to believe these subpoenas were coercion. When Trump wrote, in all caps, retribution for those who stand in his way on this issue. When then Attorney General Pam Bondi wrote to Minnesota Democrats, quote, you better support President Trump in this effort, the judge said those postings indicate coercion, therefore striking down the subpoenas. Nicole, it's just the latest example of when Trump says stuff on social media, how it causes him trouble, from the trash talk, as J.D. vance characterized it over the weekend on the Iran peace process, to the triumphant championing of the Reflecting Pool, which has gone south to this he posted on social media. The judges note it.
- [16:35]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Scott, is it your sense that people inside DOJ know that Trump is sabotaging all the cases that he wants them to, to bring, or are they just sort of lemmings marching over the cliff for him?
- [16:46]
John Heilman
I have talked to prosecutors, assistant U.S. attorneys who've had concerns about bringing things to a grand jury because grand jurors do not live in hermetically sealed conditions. They take the job seriously, they take the mission seriously, and they're aware of what's going on in the world and in the country. And that's how grand juries say no to things. Like those six Democratic lawmakers you mentioned, who a grand jury refused to indict for a video telling the military not to follow unlawful orders. And that's how grand juries throw out cases about sandwiches being thrown at federal agents.
- [17:20]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Liz, what does this do inside doj? Right. I imagine secretly, not even on encrypted apps, but maybe at whatever watering holes they feel safe gathering it. People are elated that these clearly political, you know, to quote Bill Barr bullshit cases are being thrown out by judges, but they're still being fired and hired based on their willingness to take them and make them.
- [17:46]
Liz Oyer
Yeah, it's a really difficult situation to be in inside the Justice Department. Prosecutors are in a situation right now where they're being asked to bring cases that have no basis in fact in law. And that puts them in the position of having to decide when they're risking too much, when their law license may be on the line because they're pursuing a frivolous legal action. And on the other hand, there are prosecutors who are there still trying to do good work and bring legitimate cases and investigations, and their investigations are being closed because people in the Trump administration do not like the political ramifications of those investigations. We've seen a number of them involving people who have connections with Donald Trump where cases have been displaced, dismissed out from under the prosecutors and investigators pursuing them legitimately. And we've seen situations where Trump has swooped in and granted pardons that have undercut ongoing investigations and prosecutions by his own Justice Department. So prosecutors are in a really no win situation right now. It is an incredibly demoralizing time to be working in the Justice Department. And it also places the American people at risk. We rely on the Justice Department to bring legitimate prosecutions that are essential to protect public safety. And there is so much focus on these politicized investigations instead of the legitimate ones that the department is bleeding lawyers. There are not enough people in the building who know what they're doing to handle the legitimate cases. And at some point, that's really going to catch up with us in a very dangerous way.
- [19:16]
Nicole Wallace
We're going to talk about one of those political investigations that ended in a pardon in the second. Liz, you're going to stick around and be back later in the hour. John and Scott said, stick around with me, because when we come back, we'll turn to Donald Trump's authoritarian tactics being deployed to arrest his way out of very public humiliation this time over his colossal failure of renovating the reflecting pool. It sounds so dumb, but this is really happening at the Lincoln Memorial and his war on the truth and what we are all able to see with our own eyes. Plus a fraudster was convicted of running $1 billion plus scheme. It defrauded thousands of mom and pop investors. So what did the Trump administration decide to do? Well, they freed him. Trump pardoned him after he served less than two weeks in prison. We'll bring you some wild new reporting from the New York Times that shows when it comes to the Trump White House, everything seems to be for sale. And later in the broadcast, Maryland Governor Westmore will be here on the Democratic Party's future and the energy he's seeing on the ground heading into the midterms. He'll also talk about why his state of Maryland may soon be the next battle crown over the fight against redistricting. We'll get to all of that today and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere
- [20:36]
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- [21:59]
Nicole Wallace
don't believe your eyes, don't believe your ears or your nose. As the evidence of Donald Trump's complete and utter failure to banish his much loathed algae from the reflecting pool becomes undeniable and his $14 million American flag blue lining comes apart in chunks, Trump has turned to a truly autocratic measure, arresting American citizens in order to create a look over here shiny object to try to shift the blame and deflect from his public humiliating failure to paint the reflecting pool. At least five people have been arrested after Donald Trump tried to blame vandalism for the embarrassing images flooding social media and local news of Donald Trump's much ballyhooed bright blue liner floating in chunks. Donald Trump and his allies, however, rather than, I don't know, going back to the drawing board and reversing course on that no big contract that Trump doled out to his donors and his associates to repair and line the reflecting pool, or trying to answer why the lining he claimed would last 100 years didn't last for weeks, no, instead Trump has gone on a full court press to blame the disintegration of the lining thing on these so called vandals. Trump posted this on Truth Social. Another one I had to make sure wasn't AI Quote the United States park police have arrested multiple individuals for vandalizing our nation's magnificent reflecting pool. Who would do such a thing? These are very serious crimes having to do with the destruction of national monuments. Adding this Please remember that there's a 10 year prison sentence for the destruction or even the attempted destruction of such things which will be fully enforced. Just wait until someone tells them about what Trump supporters did to the United states Capitol on January 6th where they pooped inside the Speaker's office. Washington Post reports this about Trump's so called vandals. Quote One person in charge told the Washington Post he touched the peeling paint but didn't cause any damage. Another was heard telling officers she pulled a piece of floating paint out of the water. Around 1:30pm Sunday, a Washington Post reporter witnessed a park police officer on horseback hand a young man a citation for allegedly pulling something off the water. Quote, you're not going to jail today because you seem cooperative, the police officer told the man who was at the park with his family. The day before, a Washington Post reporter in the area witnessed a U.S. marshal detain a woman for taking a piece of paint out of the pool. He accused her of vandalism. The woman was heard telling the police officer the floating paint appeared to her to Be litter. One of the people arrested was a former Olympic athlete who told the New York Times he was detained for more than four hours without being allowed to make a phone call. I want to bring in writer and editor for Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter. John Heilman and Scott are still here. Amanda, this again was a story that I checked to make sure, you know, I don't. I'm not on Trump's platform, so I always have to see if the messages are real. This is insane, but this is actually happening to people.
- [25:21]
Amanda Carpenter
Absolutely happening. I mean, maybe I'm a little bit sensitive to this, but I don't think so. I was touring all around D.C. over the weekend because I had family out of town. So of course, we wanted to go see tourist sites. And the National Guard is also still deployed all over D.C. at metro stations, at other national parks. And you see the National Guard buildup right around the reflecting pool as well. Right now, there's a video just went up on tmz. Another woman looked like she was getting detained. So in addition to the park police, the U.S. marshals, you have National Guard troops policing the pool. And if you remember, Donald Trump said that we needed this to protect DC from out of control crime. What they are doing right now, what these precious resources are being devoted to right now is protecting his narrative about vandals destroying this treasured property rather than his boss remodeling job. I mean, this is ridiculous. National monuments are meant so that people can get close to them. Reflecting pools meant to get close to. To see a reflection. Of course, tourists, even before this, dip their hands occasionally in the water. And now it's like, well, we can't do that because Donald Trump has to find this enemy to supposedly cover the botched job that he is alone is responsible for. And so this is kind of like a silly summer story, but it's not. People are being arrested. They're being held for hours for no reason.
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Nicole Wallace
Scott, there's a dead duck floating in the reflecting pool. I guess the news here is that we are damned if we do and damned if we don't, right? So instead of ending the war in Iran or lowering the price of anything, Donald Trump invites reporters into the Oval Office and has this graphic that, indeed, in 10 years of covering Trump, I've never seen anything like it. It's a picture of the reflecting pool next to three skyscrapers from various American cities. I don't even know what this is a picture of, but his pond was going to be longer than three unrelated buildings. So this is like a Huge thing to Trump. And that was the color it was supposed to be. He failed because everything he does is half assed, no bid, cheap, tacky and an inside. I actually think the comparisons to the mob are unfair because as violent as the mob is, they, you know, historically can be more competent than that. This was a botched redecorating of a monument. That means, as Amanda said, means something to everyone. Doesn't belong to Donald Trump. It doesn't belong to any president that's in office. He's the steward of it for four years and he ruined it. Tell me how the arrests around the Reflecting pool are changing D.C. right now.
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John Heilman
Let me tell you about the five arrests. First, Nicole. They're not major cases. They are U.S. park Police or federal law enforcement. Citations. If the Department of Justice wants to make this a major case and charge these people with felonies, they have to go to a grand jury. And though grand jury deliberations are secretive, in a closed room, you might hear the laughter outside the grand jury room. If they try to bring this case to a D.C. grand jury. Not going to fly. The U.S. attorney, Nicole, has until July 9th at 18 days from now to decide whether and how to charge these cases. The citation on the former Olympians, mark has a July 9th court date. So they have until then to figure out how they're going to paper or charge this case. If they charge the case at the Reflecting Pool, you have a smell that's emanating now that is reminiscent of a high school locker room. You have a police force and National Guard presence that is profound. It's never bad to have federal law enforcement near a gathering place, and a lot of people are gathering there to rubberneck at the damage. But it's like a jewel heist from the Muppet capers gonna happen. You have so many police hanging out there and it seems to be a misappropriation of resources. I'll tell you, Nicole, people in D.C. like the restored fountains that populate the rest of the city. Trump takes credit for that. But I know a week ago tomorrow, D.C. voters unanimously, I shouldn't say unanimously, overwhelmingly nominated Democrats for office from D.C. who were emphatically opposed to Donald Trump and all his projects.
- [29:42]
Nicole Wallace
Heilman to Scott's reporting, I mean, DOJ is considering charging some of these cases. Here's Judge Jeanine Pirro on charging journalist Jonathan Karl.
- [29:57]
John Heilman
Judge, is Jonathan Karl from ABC in trouble?
- [30:01]
Nicole Wallace
Well, you know, it depends. Anyone who is in a position of vandalizing or attempting to vandalize the Reflecting Pool will face the criminal justice system in D.C. look, the president has made it a priority to make D.C. not only safe, but beautiful. And there are several citations that have been handed out to individuals, and these are cases that will be prosecuted to the full extent. If there are more serious products that are put into the reflecting pool to create more algae or a bigger problem, then we'll consider more serious charges. I mean, she's insinuating that if John. I mean, she's talking about Jonathan Karl. There's a picture of Jonathan Karl examining the lining, which has come up, and she says if there are more serious products that are put into the reflect. Like, was she accusing him of, like, an algae conspiracy? He actually wrote in his latest book about how Todd Blanche is a serious, normal lawyer. That serious, normal lawyer is the boss of that person who sounds like an absolute wackadoo, speculating that if, quote, more serious products were put in the reflecting pool to create more algae. Like, what is happening where, like, journalists are being. Well, he may have created more algae. The algae was created by Donald Trump and his totally effed up renovation of the reflecting pool.
- [31:30]
Scott McFarlane
Okay, so last week, Nicole, we talked about this story on several occasions. And I know that sometimes I tend
- [31:39]
John Heilman
to take a trivial story and kind of make it bigger than it is or try to make it bigger than it is.
- [31:46]
Scott McFarlane
But. But I've been. I've been thinking about this a lot
- [31:48]
John Heilman
since we last talked, and.
- [31:50]
Scott McFarlane
And I have a list that I've made of all of the ways in which this story illustrates aspects of the story, illustrate something as essential and important
- [32:02]
John Heilman
about what is, as you just said,
- [32:04]
Scott McFarlane
effed up about the whole of Trump 2.0. I think this story is now like, for me, it's like the meta narrative for the whole thing. If you're ready, I'm going to give you some of them very quickly. They're bullet points, all right. But all of them are things that you see in every other thing that's messed up about Trump. Okay, I'm going kind of chronologically, and I had to add a couple at the end just now because of that Jeanine Perot clip. Okay, first of all, how does it get started?
- [32:29]
Nicole Wallace
Do you have my dead duck?
- [32:33]
Scott McFarlane
The dead duck is. Is just the chef's kiss that. The cherry, the metaphorical, visual cherry on
- [32:40]
John Heilman
the Sunday, so to speak.
- [32:41]
Scott McFarlane
Okay, so I'm going chronologically. Right. How does it start? It starts because of Trump's obsession with a totally trivial thing at a time when he were at war in Iran and the economy is what everyone's talking About Donald Trump is worried about the reflecting pool, right? Obsession with the trivial rather than focus on what's important. Number two, it's all about self aggrandizement. Why does he care about this? The same reason he cares about all the other monuments. Because he thinks somehow that if he changes the thing that's like in the ground, he will be remembered. He was the guy who brought American flag blue to the reflecting pool. They'll remember him forever for that. Number three, an unearned sense of self certainty that he knows better about everything than everyone else, right? So people can tell him this is a bad idea, but he's like, no, I know better. You saw that in the, Iran, in the war in Iran. They said, don't, you know, don't, don't invade Iran. He's like, they will be on their
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John Heilman
knees in front of me in a
- [33:32]
Scott McFarlane
matter of days, Nicole. They will capitulate. Number four, lack of regard for expertise. Not just lack of regard for expertise, but hostility towards expertise. We've seen that all the time. This kind of the, the, the, the environmental ignorance, right? Not understanding that there was a reason why the thing, the floor, the reflecting pool was the color that it was, which was about how much heat it would reflect coming out of the sky. Environmental ignorance, self dealing and grift. We covered that last week, right? I got a pool guy, I got a pool guy. So, you know, somebody gets a sweetheart deal. Number three, amateur hour incompetence. This is like across everything the Trump administration does, amateur hour incompetence, they screw it all up, lashing out at indiscriminately when it goes wrong, rather than taking responsibility, scapegoating and going on a witch hunt for the person who's actually responsible. I will now add fold in the Jeanine hero conspiracy theory element there. This isn't just going after random people. These are people who she's claiming or suggesting are putting stuff in the water to make the situation worse. Then of course the deployment of the legal system or the judicial system or police power to pursue Donald Trump's political personal agenda. And then finally the persecution of the press. They're going after Jonathan Karl. And the last thing, which is like almost everything else in Trump 2.0, it is absolutely, hilariously at the level of like supreme parody. If it weren't so utterly, totally sad.
- [35:07]
Amanda Carpenter
Yeah.
- [35:07]
Nicole Wallace
And I mean I'm and deadly serious, right? I mean, cuz we're covering John Carl because we all know him, but there are people who were just there with their families who may not even be Americans who may have voted for Donald Trump, who may have touched the pond, who may have said, look, what is this? Who are now ensnared in that 10 step you know how to destroy democracy list or 6 step? 100% I like it when you 100% I like it when you make lists. Don Hellman, thank you for that.
- [35:38]
Scott McFarlane
It's the whole ball of wax. It's just in this one story.
- [35:41]
Nicole Wallace
It really is.
- [35:41]
Scott McFarlane
It's everything.
- [35:43]
Amanda Carpenter
It is.
- [35:44]
Scott McFarlane
Everything that's wrong with the Trump admin @Trump 2.0 is in this one story. Every single thing.
- [35:50]
Nicole Wallace
I totally agree with you. Maybe we'll have to do this every day. Monument Watch I think it's also a tragedy because this was the one thing that felt like easy enough for him to not f up and it seems like he has. Amanda Heilman Scott, to be continued. Thank you for this today. When we come back, a Justice Department cover up involving a Trump loving Catholic priest and his connection to the prison release of a convicted scam artist. The reporter behind that stunning new story will join us next.
- [36:27]
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- [37:48]
Nicole Wallace
Why did the President commute the sentence of David Gentile recently, prosecutors said he defrauded $1.6 billion with thousands of victims. This is another example that has been brought to the President's attention of a weaponization of justice from the previous administration.
- [38:03]
Liz Oyer
And therefore he signed this commutation.
- [38:08]
Nicole Wallace
Weaponization of justice is how Caroline Levitt says jury conviction of a fraudster named David Gentile. Gentile was found guilty by a jury of a massive $1.6 billion investment scheme that defrauded thousands of innocent victims, most of them small business owners, farmers, veterans, teachers and nurses. In November, Donald Trump set David Gentile free just days into his seven year prison sentence. Donald Trump also cleared him of the $15.5 million restitution he'd been ordered to pay the government. Now there is bombshell new reporting in the New York Times about the politicized efforts that were happening behind the scenes to normalize and conceal Donald Trump's unprecedented and seedy approach to clemency. New York Times is reporting this. Quote, Trump's political appointees quashed an early stage criminal investigation into the circumstances surrounding the clemency grant. That's according to five people with knowledge of the events. Quote, the investigation, which has not been previously reported, had begun examining whether improper payments were made to help facilitate the commutation awarded to David Gentile. By May, the investigation had come to an abrupt halt after the New York Times inquired about the matter with the White house and the U.S. attorney's office in the Eastern District of New York, where the career prosecutors pursuing the inquiry worked. I want to bring into our coverage New York Times reporter Nicole Hong. She's bylined on that incredible reporting. Liz Oyer is also back with us. Nicole, take us through what you and your colleagues are reporting.
- [39:50]
Nicole Hong
There are two main pieces of this that we found. One is that federal prosecutors in Brooklyn had opened a criminal investigation looking into the circumstances around this presidential commutation. And that in and of itself was pretty remarkable. Just the idea of a U.S. attorney's office, which is a part of the Justice Department, looking into whether anyone was illegally paid off as part of this commutation. But then the second piece of our story, which was even more remarkable, is we found out that after the White House and the Justice Department became aware of the existence of this investigation, the Justice Department reached out to the Eastern District of New York and essentially told them to shut down the investigation.
- [40:46]
Nicole Wallace
Was it your understanding that the investigation included a line of inquiry into Trump's participation or possible being a beneficiary of the financial elements of this?
- [40:59]
Nicole Hong
We didn't have any indication that Trump was a target of the investigation? No.
- [41:06]
Nicole Wallace
What was the sensitive tripwire, then, that made main DOJ stop career prosecutors from investigating?
- [41:16]
Nicole Hong
There's a few elements to that. So one is that federal prosecutors were looking into this Catholic priest, Frank Mann, who was friendly with President Trump. You know, man has attended events at the White House. He delivered the closing benediction at the inauguration last year. So that was certainly one of the sensitivities. But we also had heard through our reporting that Justice Department officials were concerned about the optics of investigating a religious figure like Father man, and also that there was a sense that they believed the federal prosecutors in Brooklyn may have opened this investigation just because they were upset about the commutation, even though we show through reporting in our story that there was real evidence that this investigation was gathering.
- [42:12]
Nicole Wallace
So here's some of the evidence that the investigation yielded before it was shut down from the story. Quote, among the evidence they gathered was information about jailhouse communications in which Mr. Gentile discussed making payments of $2.5 million or more to people or companies to help facilitate his clemency, according to two people with knowledge of the investigation who were not authorized to discuss it. Did the investigation go on long enough to make clear who got that $2.5 million from Mr. Gentile? Did it all go to man, or is it not known at this point who got the $2.5 million?
- [42:51]
Nicole Hong
It's not known to us. We are still reporting, but we do know that Gentile has told people that he had facilitated some kind of payment to Man. We don't know how much, but that is one of the things we're still reporting out.
- [43:10]
Nicole Wallace
So this is for viewers of my program. This is how Mann is described in your reporting. Quote, one of the people who came under scrutiny by the investigators was the Reverend Frank Mann, a retired Catholic priest from Queens who's friends with Trump. In an email sent to the New York Times, Father man denied having anything to do with the clemency. But people with knowledge of the prison communications say that the priest corresponded with Gentile about lobbying the president on his behalf. Nicole, what do you know about the victims of the fraud for Which Trump pardoned Mr. Gentile?
- [43:43]
Nicole Hong
So this was a huge fraud scheme, you know, over a billion dollars. As part of the fraud scheme, there were thousands of victims, and the prosecutors have characterized them as, you know, small business owners, veterans. At sentencing, some of them talked about losing their entire retirement savings to this scheme. So it was a very serious fraud scheme, and it is one of the reasons why this commutation was so controversial at the time because it didn't fit the traditional criteria of a case that would have been considered for a commutation.
- [44:21]
Nicole Wallace
Liz Oyer, let me bring you in on this. The victims of Mr. Gentile, who was pardoned by Donald Trump, describe it like this quote, it felt like another Bernie Madoff deal. I'm going to take your money, I'm going to pay out over here, and then you're going to run out of money. The people who lost everything didn't get the treatment that Mr. Gentile got from Donald Trump. What is your sense, from what you see and from this reporting of this sort of current state of the pardon process?
- [44:52]
Liz Oyer
Well, this is great reporting because this case has been a big question mark for a lot of people. There is no scenario under which this person would get a commutation according to the Justice Department's rules and standards for recommending commutations. There is no scenario in which he received this commutation based on merit. He's somebody who cheated people out of over a billion dollars and got rich doing it, showed no remorse for his conduct, and served almost none of his prison sentence. So this is not a commutation that is based on merit. So everyone knew that there had to be something else going on. And it seems like the New York Times, thanks to Nicole, has uncovered what happened here, which is that there was a quid pro quo corrupt arrangement in place to get this pardon. And we've seen that time and time again under Donald Trump. I'm keeping a running tally. It's over on my substack for anyone who's interested of how much debt owed to crime victims and taxpayers has been forgiven by Donald Trump's pardons and commutations. And it is over $1.5 billion to date. Donald Trump is wiping out the obligation of wealthy people who got richer through fraud and other crimes to pay back their victims using the clemency power. That is a total distortion of the intention of the founders of the Constitution who gave the president the pardon power. It is harming and re traumatizing victims of crime. It is depriving taxpayers of money that is owed to us that has been stolen from our government. And it is corrupting the justice system at a very fundamental level by creating two tiers of justice, depending on whether you know, somebody like a father, man who's able to access Donald Trump directly and you're able to pony up a couple million dollars to get a commutation or a pardon.
- [46:44]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Liz, the reporting leaves you with the distinct impression that at least some investigators, career investigators in this office agree with you. I mean, what happens to them?
- [46:55]
Liz Oyer
Yeah, I think that it's been very distressing to career prosecutors to see what Donald Trump has done with the pardon power to undercut meritorious prosecutions that in some cases have been ongoing at the time the clemency has been granted. It is incredibly unusual for clemency to be granted to somebody who has served almost none of their sentence, which is what happened in this case. And there are a lot of prosecutors who worked very hard on this case to get justice for these victims, to give these people an opportunity to be repaid, who are rightly very upset about this clemency. There are victims who are very upset about upset about this clemency. And it's not the only one. There are others who have served none of their sentence who've defrauded victims. There's one that comes to mind, Trevor Milton, who stole over $600 million from victims of his crime and the pardon came in and wiped it all out in a second. And now these people are being re traumatized who were victimized in the first place by then not being able to collect the restitution that is owed to them. So it's demoralizing to a whole, whole lot of different stakeholders in the criminal justice system. And I don't want to forget about the people who are actually deserving of this type of relief, who are being overlooked in favor of these wealthy and well connected friends of the president who are not deserving of clemency.
- [48:12]
Nicole Wallace
It's an incredible piece of reporting, Nicole. Thanks to you and your colleagues for bringing it to us. We'll stay on top of any developments. And Liz, thank you for spending the hour with us today. Your new podcast is out today called Is this Really Legal? It is. Must. Listen, we have to sneak in one more break. We'll be right back. A quote, giant of a man. That's how our longtime friend and colleague Andrea Mitchell describes her husband. Her husband, of course, is the former Federal Reserve Chair Alan Greenspan. He passed away today at the age of 100. He was a steward of the US economy for decades. He was the epitome of a public servant. In his five terms as chairman of the Federal Reserve, he served under four American presidents. He defined the US Economy from the end of the Cold War into the digital age. But as Andrea puts it today in a statement, quote, to me, he was my husband who shaped my life from our very first date in 1984. He had irrational exuberance for baseball, the Washington commanders, tennis, golf and music, especially jazz. He will be remembered for his brilliance and his kindness. Being his life partner was the joy of my life. Our thoughts and all our love go out to Andrea and their family. Up next for us, Donald Trump and his war on the truth, attacking the press over coverage. Accurate coverage of his war with Iran. The latest fake news calls now turning to accusations of treason. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a very short break. Don't go anywhere
- [49:50]
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