← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"The real beauty of this thing we call democracy"
00:42:08
Alicia Menendez, in for Nicolle Wallace, on a Florida special election where Democrat Emily Gregory defeated Republican Jon Maples -- in the district that includes Trump's Mar-a-Lago golf club.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
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- [00:52]
Alicia Menendez
What do you think about the fact
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Unidentified Guest (possibly a politician)
that Donald Trump is now one of your constituents?
- [00:57]
Emily Gregory
I mean, I don't think all of that much about it. Right. He's one of 115,000 registered voters in District 86. My opponent made, you know, him forefront in his campaign, and I focused more on the voters in District 87. You know, what everybody needs, what all of us will do better with, with lower property insurance, with expanded health care, and with strong public schools. I think we've learned over the last several years that no one is coming to save us. We have to save ourselves. So I might have done some crazy calculus to decide that this was a flip opportunity, but it was, and we did it. So my math worked.
- [01:40]
Alicia Menendez
Hi again, everybody. It is five o' clock now. In New York, I'm Alicia Menendez, in for Nicole Wallace. The real beauty of this thing we call democracy, as messy and as noisy and as chaotic as it can be, is that, at least for now, the American people have the final say. Ultimately, they are the ones steering this ship. So if and when Donald Trump's own neighbors, his home community, decided they'd rather be represented by a Democrat instead of someone he endorsed, well, then, that's that. Last night, in a special election for a state House seat in Florida, Democrat Emily Gregory defeated Republican John Maples in a district that includes Mar? A Lago that is a flipped seat in 2024, a different Republican candidate won big, to the tune of 19 points. And yes, we can tick through all the usual caveats. You probably know them already. You can tick through them yourself. Trump wasn't on the ballot. It was really close. There's a long way to November. This was a single race in a single district, on and on and on and on. And it would be unfair to reduce the hard work Emily Gregory and her team to a simple yes or no referendum on Trump. But don't talk yourself out of how significant and how symbolic this result really was, especially when you put it into context. Because as of last night, Democrats have now flipped 30 state legislative seats across this country since Trump was elected. Republicans, they flipped zero, none. Democrats are now 30 and O. In case a bar graph is helpful in visualizing that, there you go. The question now, why? Maybe the answer is in the way Emily Gregory ran her campaign with a razor sharp focus on the proper message. One that included in large part an issue on the minds of Americans from coast to coast these days, and that is the cost of living. The latest Reuters IPSIS poll made it clear only 25% of Americans, a quarter of Americans approve of the way Donald Trump is handling our cost of living. Well, 66%. Two thirds disapprove. TRUMP might quibble with those numbers in the same way he might disagree that Democrats going 30 and oh in flipped legislative seats since he was elected constitutes some sort of blue wave. But hey, if he's that worried about it, he is always free to write his state representative. And that is where we start this hour with Ms. Now, political analyst and pollster Cornell Belcher. Also with us, former senior advisor to President Biden MVP Harris, former mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu. He's now the co chair of American Bridge, 21st century. And joining me at the table, political analyst Molly Zhang.
- [04:23]
Fast Politics Host
Fast.
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Alicia Menendez
She is the host of Fast Politics and a New York Times contributing opinion writer. Well, well, well, Mayor Landrieu, your reaction to these results out of Florida?
- [04:35]
Mitch Landrieu
Well, some, some wins are sweeter than others. If you, if you take, you know, a queen or a king or a rook from somebody's backyard, it always feels better. But I think that it does have national significance in this way. When Donald Trump ran for office, he said he was gonna do two things. Stay out of foreign wars and reduce everybody's costs. The American people are saying loudly and clearly over a very long period of time in many states across the nation that the President has lost his focus and they want him to get focused on cost. But Donald Trump is focused on chaos. He's focused on corruption. He's focused on incompetence. I think that newly elected state representatives said it right when she said, listen, the folks here are just interested in, you know, table, kitchen table issues. Can you pay the rent? Can you pay the mortgage? Can you send the kids to school? There was another race in North Carolina it was a Republican on Republican race where I believe it was the Senate Republican Senate majority leader lost to a sheriff. And the issue was very local. It was about the sighting of a casino in the particular district. I Learned this for 16 years in the legislature. No matter how high and mighty you got, no matter how high your butt got up in the air, if you forgot about your constituents at home, you forgot what they cared about the most, they're going to throw you out of office. And we've won 29 raises. Now it's 29 zero. So I think the message is they focus on what the people want and they want lower cost and they want better lives.
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Alicia Menendez
Cornell Belcher, speaking of staying focused, I want you to take a look at this campaign ad from Emily Gregory because it speaks to hitting that message straight out of the gate. Watch
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Emily Gregory Campaign Ad Voice
costs keep rising in Florida and families are feeling the squeeze. Emily Gregory gets it. She's a mom, a military spouse and a small business owner facing the same challenges we all are. Emily is running because Tallahassee needs leaders who understand real life and will fight for real relief, not political talking points. In the state House, Emily will work to lower cost, address the property insurance crisis, and strengthen public schools so every child can succeed. Vote Emily Gregory on or before March24.
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Alicia Menendez
To borrow some of the language from the mayor. That's the problem with folks having their butts too high up in the air, which is they can no longer make the argument that they understand what life is like for real people. Right. That bio. I'm a mom, I'm a military spouse, I'm a small business owner. I know what you're going through because I'm going through it myself, keeping laser focus on what it is she's going to deliver. We have watched Cornell over and over and over again. That be a winning message for Democrats.
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Cornell Belcher
Look, I think that's right. And look, you know, Mayor Landrew is always spot on with colorful language. But also I don't, I don't want to think that there's a, there's a single silver bullet because one thing that Mayor Landrieu also understands is that all these races come down to good candidates and really sort of building a campaign that fits authentically that candidate. But I will say that when you go 0 for 30, it's not just a phenomenon, it is in fact a trend. And even look at the off year elections in New Jersey and Virginia last year where, look, I expected us to do well in those elections. I didn't expect us to win by those sorts of Margins. So you see not only Democrats performing well with modern independent voters, but you also see, and I think this is really important going into a midterm election. You see turnout better than what we typically see it. And you're seeing it in primaries and you see Democrats turning out in these special elections. And not only that, but look, it's where Democrats are winning, right? It's not just, it's not necessarily even swing areas like that Mar a Lago district, that's not a swing area. That's not some place that Democrats will say, this is a swing district. And when you look at where they're winning in Arkansas and in Texas and even in Mississippi, and these are deeply red areas. And if Democrats are able to overperform in deeply red areas at the state level like this, I think you are looking at potentially a different kind of midterm, a perhaps sea change midterm if Republicans can't turn it around.
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Alicia Menendez
Molly, what do those numbers say to you?
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Molly Zhang
Well, I want to point out, I want to point out that Emily Gregory, first time candidate, run for something candidate. So shout out to Amanda Lippman. So if you're sitting here watching TV thinking, like, what could I do? Here's a woman, right, business owner, married to a veteran, decides why not me? And I do think, like the important point here about the local. You heard her have this line about property insurance that is a big deal in Florida, and that's because of the Republican governor, among other things. And property insurance has gotten crazy expensive. And so that was a good sort of pivot to like the local. But yes, Donald Trump is a drag on the ballot and that's what we're seeing. And he's underwater on the things that he has known, the things that he was not underwater on historically, the economy and immigration. And I saw polling today that was as low as Biden at his lowest post debate numbers. And so you do see he's gonna be a drag on the ticket.
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Alicia Menendez
Well, and you're seeing some of those numbers manifest. Mayor Landrieu, in polling about generic, when they talk about generic democr, Gay, Quinnipiac had this on the generic ballot. Democrats up by 11 points as of this week. Do you think that's a mirage?
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Mitch Landrieu
No, No, I don't, actually. You have a very interesting thing going on. And both Molly and Cornell are brilliant people where you have national issues that are affecting local issues in this sense, when people think the president has lost control, he's lost his mind, he's using his power in the wrong way. He's engaging in corruption. He's now making choices about foreign wars. If the impact is to increase cost on the local level, you have national issues and local issues converging and crashing against each other in a way that's negative for the president. And unfortunately, the president will not self correct because he always thinks he's right about everything when he's mostly wrong about everything. And the one thing that people can do is to vote. And I think that you're seeing this, as Cornell said, these are not just purple districts, these are red districts where white working class men who may have voted for Donald Trump two times have said, I can't believe he gave a tax cut to billionaires and he took away my Medicaid because I have a special needs child and is making my life impossible to manage because now I can't pay my rent, I can't pay my mortgage, I can't pay my note on my car and my kid's sick. I think you're having that sense out there. And I think they think the president has lost control, lost focus and that's self correcting, as Molly said.
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Alicia Menendez
Cornell, I mean, it seems like given all of these, the 30 and oh, given the polling that Republicans big play here is the Save America act, right? Like they're just going to mess with elections as much as they can in the interest that if they can't win the game, then they'll rig the rules and play the refs. I thought this in that context was interesting, Cornell. It's new reporting from the New York Times. President Trump and the Republican National Committee are strongly considering Dallas as the site of an unusual midterm convention later this year. That's according to two people with knowledge of the discussions. Republicans are working to finalize the plan as they seek to rally their voters in the face of political headwinds. Some details must still be finalized, including the exact dates. And officials said formal paperwork still needed to be signed. But Trump advisors who are looking to parade their candidates and rally the base are close to settling on Dallas over other options, which had included Las Vegas. According to the people who were granted anonymity to share the private planning information, the party is targeting a date after after Labor Day to try to maximize early voting momentum. Your sense of what it is that Republicans are trying to do here?
- [12:37]
Cornell Belcher
Well, first let me say this and let me underline something that the mayor talked about that's getting a little bit in the weeds. Typically you don't see a 11 point generic horse race open up. When you do see a generic horse race open up 11 points. Look the last when I was holster for the DNC under Howard Dean going into 2006, we finally saw 11 point horse race open up and you had a sweeping sea change election. So we're at the cusp of something really different happening in our elections here. When you look at Republicans wanting to do a rally in Texas, I think they're running scared. Right. If you want to do a rally in Texas to try to sort of energize and boost and boost your folks and you for to be going to Dallas and specifically to Texas, I think the upside for Republicans is probably larger than the downside because they're going to focus attention on Trump and his disastrous policies. And I got to tell you, if I'm the Senate Democrat candidate in Texas, I love the ideal that he's going to come there and he's going to highlight how the Republican Senate candidate is embracing and putting his arms around Trump and all of his wildly unpopular policies.
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Alicia Menendez
Right. Because this is the challenge for them, which is they need him for their base. Right. He repulses everyone who is not their base.
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Fast Politics Host
Yeah.
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Molly Zhang
And Texas the reason they're going to Texas cuz they're worried about Latino voters. Right. They know, they see those polls and that is a group that swung to Trump in 24 and is swinging away. I would add, I think they're a little worried about the Senate seat because remember, they're still in a Cornyn and Paxton are still in a runoff.
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Emily Gregory
Right.
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Molly Zhang
If Trump people in the Republican Party want Trump to embrace Cornyn because Cornyn seems like the more, less maga, more sort of normalish you might get indies. But here's the problem. Paxton is sort of has so much momentum because he's Trump, he's basically Trumpier than Trump that if Trump endorses Cornyn, he may lose some of the MAGA base that he desperately needs. But if he endorses Paxton, he then loses these indies. So he really is an impossible situation and that's why he hasn't done anything yet.
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Alicia Menendez
They are nervous. Mayor, I want you to take a listen to what the White House chief of staff Susie Wiles said back in December. This was after some special election defeats.
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Unidentified Guest (possibly a politician)
Typically you in the midterms, it's not about who's sitting at the White House. It's you localize the election and you and you keep the federal officials out of it. We're actually going to turn that on its head.
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Cornell Belcher
Good.
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Unidentified Guest (possibly a politician)
And put him on the ballot because so many of those low propensity voters Are Trump voters?
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Alicia Menendez
Yes, they are.
- [15:33]
Unidentified Guest (possibly a politician)
And we saw a week ago Tuesday what happens when he's not on the ballot and not active. So I haven't quite broken it to him yet, but he's going to campaign like it's 2024 again.
- [15:47]
Alicia Menendez
Mayor well, does that still hold?
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Mitch Landrieu
Cornell Belch is the great, you know, he's the guy that knows about this stuff. But let me, let me just make a couple of points. It is generally not true, what she said. That's really not the way that it works. Most of the polling data indicates that when you take the MAGA Republicans and the Democrats out and you focus on the and the non MAGA Republicans, they are speaking identically as Democrats are now, and they're saying the president's lost focus. He's engaged in chaos, corruption and incompetence. He's focused on foreign wars, and he's not focused on the things that we need to help us make a better living. That's why the crossover votes are so strong. And if the president insists on continuing on the path that he's on, he's going to continue to get the result that has been handed to him. 29, nothing. And it's going to be a big thing now. I think Cornell's right. You have to have great candidates. You have to have a message that is tailored to the community that you're in. Authenticity here is the coin of the realm. That's what people want. They don't want any more bullshit. They want you, straight up, somebody who's from there that talks in a way that they, you know, completely identify with because they're from the neighborhood and they understand what, what's going on in their life. They feel like the world is out of control and they want us to focus on their life. Whatever neighborhood you happen to be in, and if candidates do that, they are much more likely to win. Donald Trump's incapable of doing that. I think Susie knows it, and I think she's kind of starting to make an excuse already and saying it's really in the president's hands, but he's going to lose.
- [17:21]
Alicia Menendez
Mayor, could we just stick on this point for a second? Given these results, does that then change, if you were at the dnc, how you're thinking about where you put your money?
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Mitch Landrieu
Well, you know, I'm of the opinion that if I'm from a red state, I think you have to go everywhere. Like in Louisiana, we have parishes, not counties. There's 64 of them. I would campaign in every one of them because if it's a statewide election. Every vote in every parish matters. Sometimes Democrats have, like stayed focused just in the cities and the outer ring of the cities. You have to have candidates that can play everywhere. You'll see this in Georgia, you'll see it in North Carolina. You should see it in Texas. I think, I think Representative Talarico's done a great job of going places and, and making them defend in places they didn't think. So I think the DNC's got to be very smart about it. But I do think when you get away from just where you're going to spend your money, who you're going to spend your money on should be an authentic candidate that speaks to the pocketbook issues that people care about the most. That is not to say that national concerns shouldn't come into play whether we're at war or whether we're in peace, because it does affect local issues and you have to have somebody that can talk about those as well. But if you do that to the exclusion of what people care about the most and they're saying it loud and clear, focus on me. I need help. I'm drowning. I want to save democracy, but can you help me save a couple of bucks while you're at it? Because I can't make ends meet. And unless and until you do that, I'm going to throw you out and I'm going to vote for somebody else. And I think that we ought to take that message and run with it.
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Alicia Menendez
Cornell Belcher, Mitch Landrieu, thank you both so much for getting us started. Molly, you are sticking with me. When we return, what are the Republicans doing about all this winning by Democrats? They are looking to make voting harder so that fewer people can vote. Mark Elias is going to join us on his efforts to make sure that does not happen next. Also ahead, we've had more time to pour through the video depositions of two of Jeffrey Epstein's closest confidants. And among the things we have found, a stunning acknowledgment that has Epstein survivors and their allies once again accusing the federal government of a cover up. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.
- [19:28]
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- [21:24]
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a parent and want to help set up your child for success, then IXL is right for your family. As an effective and affordable online learning program, IXL covers math, language arts, science and social studies using interactive practice problems for kids from Pre K to 12th grade. Listeners can get an exclusive 20% off IXL membership when they sign up today at@ixl.com 20 Visit ixl.com 20 to get the most effective learning program out there at the best price.
- [21:56]
Alicia Menendez
Amid growing signs that November's midterms could be a wipeout for Donald Trump's party, Republicans are ramping up efforts to interfere in our elections. Donald Trump is urging Senate Republicans to skip easter and pass his highly restrictive voting bill, SAVE act, while Republicans at the state level are seizing ballots and handing over voter rolls to Trump's doj. The New York Times reports that, quote, a Republican sheriff who is running for governor of California recently seized more than 650,000 ballots cast in a 2025 statewide election. The investigation involves ballots cast in the 2025 special election over Proposition 50, which asked voters whether they wanted to allow Democrats to redraw the state's congressional districts to in response to the nationwide redistricting war Republicans sparked in Texas last year. Comes to States are increasingly caving to the Trump administration's demands to hand over voter data. Democracy Docket reports that Oklahoma is the latest state to hand over its full voter rolls to Trump's doj. Writing this quote, under a newly executed settlement, state officials will give the DOJ a complete copy of Oklahoma's statewide voter registration database, including voters names, birth dates, residential addresses, and identifying numbers, including driver's licenses and the last four digits of Social Security numbers. I want to bring in voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy Docket, Mark Elias. Molly is still with us. All right, Mark, talk to us about what we're seeing at the state level, both in Oklahoma and in California.
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Mark Elias
I mean, what we're watching is the part of this that worries me the most, right? We focused a lot on what Donald Trump is trying to force on blue states and on counties that want to do the right thing. But what about all the red states and the county officials that want to do the wrong thing? Right. We need a playbook that is not just protecting against bad actors taking on the good guys, but what happens when the bad guys show up and the bad guys in state are like, yep, we're here with you. So we've seen this. Now, as you point out, in both Oklahoma, where the state of Oklahoma initially refused to turn over its citizens most sensitive voter information, my law firm and I, we intervened to protect the voting rights of individual voters in that state. And notwithstanding that, the state of Oklahoma turned around and then settled the case and basically gave the information that DOJ wanted. And that is, that is a tragedy for democracy around the country and in particular for the voters of Oklahoma. You have, in my opinion, not been well served. And then in California, as you point out, you've got a Republican sheriff who's also running for governor in the state who seized 650,000 ballots. 650,000 ballots he seized. And, and, you know, look, we've talked before, you and I, Alicia and Molly and I have talked lots about the risk of the Department of Justice seizing ballots in places like Fulton County. But now we got to worry about every Republican sheriff around the country who's an election denier. And Democracy Doc had reported earlier today, this is a guy who posted on social media, quote, some people should never be allowed to vote. I mean, you know, this is, this is not some, on the, on the, on the level guy. This is a, this is a election. And so we gotta, we gotta all up our game.
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Alicia Menendez
Can you, can you, can you. And I stay on that point because there was a piece to that, and you can feel The Overton Window on this absolutely shifting. Let me read you this piece. In a fair world, 150 million Americans wouldn't be allowed to vote. We should do more than just require ID to vote. The SAVE act is the least we should do. It's rookie numbers. We should do far more the way fewer people should be allowed to vote. The next time the pendulum swings, and it will swing. Republicans ram through a new voting measure. Americans must meet two of three criteria to vote. Be a net contributor to tax revenue. Own property, be married with children. That, dear reader, is what they call skin in the game. Your sense of not only where they are right now, Mark, but where they're going next.
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Mark Elias
Oh, I'm so glad you brought this up, because the one thing that Donald Trump has been really good at is shifting the Overton Window. I mean, you know, if you start with what we, what we believed democracy was and is, and you look at how far it has tilted to the acceptable arguments that now are now treated in polite company as if they are, you know, they're worth debating. It's remarkable. And so we now have, as you see, the arguments that, that, you know, not, not every American citizen should be able to vote. This is not that different than, by the way, Donald Trump saying not everyone born in the United States should be a U.S. citizen. Right? I mean, the whole notion of doing birthright citizenship was a huge shift of the Overton Window. It is the next step there is to say, well, if married women can't prove that they are the same person as they were on their birth certificate, their name is, has, has changed, maybe they shouldn't be allowed to vote. Well, how far is that just saying, well, maybe only men should be allowed to vote. Right? This is. These are all notions that will sound really out, way outside the mainstream to the people listening to this audience. But if you pay attention to what it is that MAGA figures are saying, and not just fringe figures, but elected officials are saying and prominent supporters are saying, this is the kind of stuff they traffic in. It is dangerous, but it is equally dangerous for us to not take it seriously and to put up every fight we possibly can to make sure that we have free and fair elections and that every eligible citizen is able to cast a ballot and have it count.
- [27:28]
Alicia Menendez
Molly, tell me if you disagree, but it's hard not to see what's happening in Oklahoma, what's happening in California. This shifting of the Overton Window to have something to do with the conversation you and I were just having a few minutes ago about the Fact that Republicans are not winning on the merits.
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Emily Gregory Campaign Ad Voice
Yes.
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Molly Zhang
And in fact, you got Mike Lee, the senator from Utah, saying that the Save America act is the only way we can save the midterms. Basically, you had Mark Meadows saying that, and you've even had these people. And I think what Mark Elias was saying before is important, talking about how women voters are really, because remember, women voters have not embraced Trumpism. And they were sort of. And, and a lot of women voters did not go along with Trumpism. And they're saying, well, maybe women shouldn't. And remember, this Save act, part of it is that it would disenfranchise married women. Right. You'd have to get, if you had a name change, it would make it harder to vote. But I think one of the important points here which should not be missed is that Alaska Senator Lisa Murkowski even said today that a couple living in rural Alaska would have to pay to get other identification, and then they would have to bring your identification into voting. I mean, the whole point is voter suppression here. This is to make it harder to vote.
- [28:46]
Alicia Menendez
The whole point is voter suppression. I mean, you have to say, Mark, and you've been saying this from the beginning. It is remarkable, the number of fields they are playing this on, whether it is the redistricting fight, whether it is the SAVE act, whether it is this demand for voting rolls, as we've seen out of various states, or whether it's Steve Bannon calling ICE agents at airports a test run for the midterms. When he says that, do you believe he's socializing that idea with his base, with the American people? How far do you think they go? And do you think that the courts are going to be able to stop them?
- [29:24]
Mark Elias
Look, I wrote about this for democracy.gog yesterday. And since I know you're a subscriber, I know you read it. But the fact is, everything we are seeing them do right now is part of a test run. Right. Why did they seize ballots in Fulton County? Sure. Part of it's about continuing to tell the big lie from 2020, but part of it is a test run for how you seize ballots. Why did they subpoena ballot images from Maricopa County? Same thing. I would say the same thing, by the way, about what this Republican sheriff did in California. You know, Steve Bannon said a few months ago that, that there were going to be ICE agents surrounding the polls. Now he is saying that they will be used to check id. Well, just think about what he's saying here. They will not just in his vision be used outside of the polls. They'll actually be the person checking you in when you show up inside the polls. Right? So all of this is trying to normalize it. All of it is trying to make it seem reasonable. And all of it is a test run to see how far they can get away with in trying to undermine free and fair elections this fall. Now, will the courts hold? I hope so. I mean, look, you know, I was one of the people shouting at the top of my lungs in 2020 and people thought I was being alarmist and it turns out I was pretty spot on and the courts held and so now I'm screaming at top of my lungs again and I am hoping the courts hold. I'm doing everything I can. We're fighting in court in, you know, 90 places, my little law firm of 60 people and we're winning. And you know, Pam Bondi hates me and Donald Trump hates me and, and you know, we're going to keep fighting,
- [30:59]
Alicia Menendez
fighting in 90 places and still finding time to send those emails to your loyal subscribers. Mark Elias, Molly Jeanfast, thank you both so much for joining us today. When we returned, we are learning much more from the depositions of Jeffrey Epstein's longtime attorney and accountant. And while they say they did not have knowledge of Epstein's crimes, they also said something else that suggests government investigators truly dropped the ball. We're going to have that after a short break.
- [31:30]
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- [32:01]
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- [32:32]
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- [33:00]
Alicia Menendez
the release of the depositions of both Jeffrey Epstein's accountant, Richard Kahn, and his lawyer Darren Indyke, is leading to more questions about the Justice Department's handling of the Epstein case. Here's what they told the House Oversight Committee.
- [33:15]
Congressional Questioner
We've been talking about the investigation and prosecution of Jeffrey Epstein that were conducted in Florida. As you know, Mr. Epstein was subsequently investigated and prosecuted in the Southern District of New York. Were you ever contacted by the Department of Justice or the FBI in connection with that investigation?
- [33:35]
Richard Kahn / Darren Endyke (Epstein associates)
No.
- [33:37]
Congressional Questioner
Were you ever contacted by the Department of Justice or the FBI in connection with the investigation or prosecution of Ghislaine Maxwell in the Southern District of New York?
- [33:48]
Richard Kahn / Darren Endyke (Epstein associates)
I was not personally contacted.
- [33:50]
Congressional Questioner
Have you ever been formally questioned by any government authority in connection with Mr. Epstein? I've never been questioned by any government authority.
- [34:00]
Alicia Menendez
Absolutely wild. Neither Khan nor Indyke have been accused of wrongdoing, but they are two men who worked with the deceased sex offender for years. It's hard to believe the DOJ would not have interest in talking to either of them. As NBC News points out, their testimony directly undercuts the government's review of the case, which, quote, the Justice Department and the FBI called exhaustive in an unsigned joint memo in July announcing that the government would not disclose additional materials on the disgraced financier. I want to bring in our senior legal reporter, Lisa Rubin. And Tara Palmeri is with us. She writes the red letter on Substack and has hosted two podcast series on the Epstein case. It is good to see you both. That is really startling to me. Explain to me how it is even possible the doj, that SDNY wouldn't have reached out to them.
- [34:45]
Lisa Rubin
I have no idea why SCNY would not have reached out to them. I can explain why they might not have reached out prior to Epstein's death for two reasons. One, both of them were still in his employ. And to the extent that you don't want to tip off the subject of an investigation, you don't want to get to the people closest to him who are likely to be loyal to him and help perhaps with the subversion of evidence. That was something that was accused with respect to Jeffrey Epstein in the earlier Florida investigation, that they destroyed things that were at the Palm beach house, that they disposed of computer equipment and other evidence. If you thought that was likely to happen again, you might not ask Darren Endyke or Rich Kahn to come in. But the other reason is something that Michael Feinberg touched on with you yesterday, which is Darren Endyke, as a lawyer, is not typically the kind of person you bring in to talk to. Usually when the FBI wants to talk to someone like that, they have to establish that there is like sort of a higher threshold for talking to someone who behaves as a lawyer. That having been said, why they didn't talk to either of them after Epstein was found dead is stunning to me. They had lots of information that they could have provided that would have been helpful in the prosecution of Ghislaine Maxwell. And of course, some of their answers yesterday, Alicia, I believe, inculpate them and why they weren't investigated with respect to potential crimes they may have committed or at least were potentially aiding and abetting.
- [36:09]
Alicia Menendez
Which sound are you thinking of?
- [36:10]
Lisa Rubin
I am thinking about a number of things, but in particular, I'm thinking about immigration related crimes. So there are a number of pieces of sound where each of them were asked about instances in which they helped Epstein victims arrange for documents that would be helpful in immigration related proceedings. In Mr. Khan's case, he was asked, for example, about a letter that he wrote on behalf of two known Epstein victims, One an American citizen, the other a foreign born person, where he attested to the strength of their relationship and their passion for each other. He admitted on his congressional testimony that that was an embellished letter. I'd like to go further than that. One of the people in that relationship was Jeffrey Epstein's known girlfriend and his girlfriend at the time of his death. She is the largest beneficiary of his will. How a person who principally serves as his accountant and who knew each of these women, he said he knew both of them. I'm not naming them for their own safety and privacy, but he said he knew both of them. Why he didn't know one of them was Jeffrey Epstein's girlfriend at the time he was asked to write this letter is kind of baffling to me. Right.
- [37:19]
Fast Politics Host
Okay.
- [37:20]
Alicia Menendez
I want to stick on that point. Tara, here is another moment from Darren Endyke's deposition. Let's listen and then we'll talk about it on the other side.
- [37:29]
Richard Kahn / Darren Endyke (Epstein associates)
Mr. Endyke, with the benefit of hindsight, were there things you witnessed or observed about Mr. Epstein that could have significant suggested he was trafficking and sexually abusing young women? And girls. I mean, at what period of time during the entirety of your relationship? No, I had no knowledge of any allegations before 2006. And after 2006, when he ultimately went to jail and was back. My understanding was that the Ruchi was underage people, sex with underage people. And the understanding was that it was limited to Florida. And when I was in New York, which is where I spent my time, I never saw any underage people. I never saw any. Any sexual activity. He was, by all accounts, a very smart man. I couldn't imagine he would do anything to put himself back in that position again. So, no, there's nothing that I saw that would lead me to believe that he was engaging in misconduct.
- [38:51]
Alicia Menendez
Tara, based on the extensive reporting you have done on this case, does that seem plausible to you?
- [38:57]
Fast Politics Host
No, it's not plausible at all. It's incredibly. It's. It's baffling, frankly, to think that. I mean, he was literally withdrawing cash at 7, $500 each. He needed cash. What do you need cash for, if not for trafficking? He's paying off all of these settlements. For what? What are you paying settlements for? He claims he didn't know what the settlements were about. He says that, you know, wealthy people, they pay settlements all the time to deal with lawsuits. It's shocking to me that he would say that. I think he needs to be called back in, too, to answer questions about Jane Doe for one of the Epstein survivors who alleged that she was assaulted with Epstein and President Trump. And during the hearings, he said that he paid a settlement to this Jane Doe for, and then he retracted it. So he needs to be brought back in to answer further questions under oath. I think this entire hearing needs to be redone, frankly.
- [39:59]
Alicia Menendez
All right, I have more questions about that, and no one is going anywhere. We're going to sneak in a quick break, and then we're going to be right back.
- [40:10]
Representative Thomas Massie
I'm not satisfied until the survivors are satisfied. That's my benchmark. And obviously, you know, in my floor speech here in the House of Representatives, I said, men need to be. Perp walked in handcuffs to the jail. And until we see that here in this country, we've seen some of that in other countries, but until we see that here in this country, we don't have a system of justice that's working.
- [40:35]
Alicia Menendez
Representative Thomas Massie on the Epstein files. We are back with Lisa and with Tara. Let's talk about the money and the money trail here. Specifically, something we heard From Khan about $3 million he received in loans from Jeffrey Epstein, take a listen.
- [40:53]
Congressional Questioner
To be clear, you are still paying off those loans. When Epstein died, I was continuing to pay interest on those loans. And that's when advice of counsel said,
- [41:05]
Mitch Landrieu
don't say what it said. It stopped.
- [41:07]
Congressional Questioner
It stopped. Thank you. Payment stopped. And based on what the trust provisions had in him.
- [41:14]
Alicia Menendez
Put that in context for me.
- [41:16]
Lisa Rubin
Well, there's no doubt that working for Jeffrey Epstein was more lucrative than it seemed on its face. Based on the salary that both of these guys earned. As Rich Kahn admitted in his deposition and Darren Endyk admitted it, his both of them got sizable multimillion dollar loans from him and stopped repaying on those loans after Epstein died. That means that for some period of time, minus the little amount of interest that they paid, they've gotten multimillion dollar basically awards where they've not had to pay taxes on that. But in addition to that, Alicia, he made distributions to both of these men from trusts that he had and both of them testified to that as well again, and then multiples of millions of dollars. So you will hear from Con and Indyke's lawyers. Oh, they only made $250,000 a year. Oh, they're not being compensated for their time as co executors of the estate. That is true. But the financial picture in totality is far more complex. Working for Jeffrey Epstein was ultimately lucrative. And as the beneficiaries of his will. Next to that girlfriend we were talking about, the next two people in line are Darren Endyke and Rich Kahn. They don't expect to see any money, they say based on demands on the estate. They say new claims are being filed every day. But if anybody sees money after that girlfriend, who's it going to be? The two of them?
- [42:34]
Alicia Menendez
Tara, how's all of this landing with survivors?
- [42:38]
Fast Politics Host
I mean it's, it's horrific and it's disgusting. And these people represented Jeffrey Epstein for decades. And like Jen said, so many of the other people that worked for Jeffrey Epstein, they were really well paid. I went to their homes, the butler, the pilot, they are long retired now and you see where they live and they live in mansions in southern Florida. These are the type of positions that don't usually lead to this sort of retirement. I think that these people knew who they were working for and for that they could charge a premium. I mean, he was bequeathed with these two lawyers, 12 and $10 million from the estate. That is not normal for executors of estates. So I think they knew exactly what they were doing to pretend that they didn't know what the settlements were for the fact that he advised some of these girls to not speak to the feds, according to a survivor, and to, and to come to them if they needed a lawyer. And this is something that I heard from Jane Doe 1, the crime victims Rights act case, Courtney Wild. She said that when the, when the FBI was trying to reach her that she believed they were coming for her because Jeffrey Epstein told her when she was 16 years old that she was the one who, who committed a crime of prostitution and that he was willing to give her a lawyer. So she went to his lawyers and she went to his lawyer, she said she felt like a prostitute, essentially what he made this 16 year old feel like. And that that was the game, that was the manipulation and that and these men were part of it against with children involved.
- [44:24]
Alicia Menendez
So startling when you put it in those terms. Lisa Rubin, Tara Palmeri, thank you both so much for joining us and talking us through this. There is much more on the Epstein Files. On this week's episode of the Best People podcast, Nicole's guest is Miami Herald investigative reporter Julie K. Brown, who's led the way in helping understand and untangling the details of the Epstein case. To listen to Nicole's conversation, just scan the QR QR code on your screen or download the Best People wherever you get your podcasts. When we return, Bruce Springsteen takes the fight to Donald Trump. As Trump tries to revamp the constitutional right of what it means to be born in the usa, they're going to explain after a quick break, A point of New Jersey personal privilege. The Boss, Bruce Springsteen himself is lending his classic born in the USA to the ACLU's fight to protect birthright citizenship from Donald Trump. They say they have purchased airtime for this video during MLB Opening Day, American Idol and other programs. Take a look.
- [45:39]
Lisa Rubin
The Supreme Court will hear a case challenging birthright system citizenship.
- [45:47]
Alicia Menendez
The 14th Amendment guarantees birthright citizenship.
- [46:02]
Congressional Questioner
How many good grandkids you have?
- [46:33]
Alicia Menendez
Supreme Court oral arguments to defend birthright citizenship begin on April 1st. We're going to be watching that very closely. We're going to take another break and then we're going to be right back. Thank you for spending part of your Wednesday with us.
- [46:50]
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