“The role of a public servant”

Summary

Deadline: White House — "The Role of a Public Servant"

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC NOW
Date: May 29, 2026

Overview

This episode of Deadline: White House examines the escalating politicization and upheaval within America's civil service, especially within the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the broader federal bureaucracy under the Trump administration's second term. Through the lens of Maureen Comey's firing—a career prosecutor allegedly dismissed due to her family ties to Trump critic Jim Comey—Nicolle Wallace and a panel of experts dig deeply into the implications of a presidency asserting near-monarchical powers over public servants, the hollowing out of institutional competence, and the growing threats to foundational democratic principles and the rule of law.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Maureen Comey Case: Presidential Power, Political Retaliation, and Legal Precedent

• Trump Administration Admits Loyalty-Based Firing (01:00 – 04:30):
  Nicolle Wallace opens with the DOJ's extraordinary legal argument: that President Trump possesses authority to fire federal employees for any reason, including political motivation. This arose in pretrial hearings in Maureen Comey's lawsuit, where Comey (daughter of former FBI Director James Comey) claims she was terminated for her family name following social media attacks and pressure campaigns.

• The DOJ's "Breathtaking" Legal Theory:
  DOJ attorney Karen Les argued in court that the president may validly dismiss employees "even if there were political motivations." When pressed by the judge about whether this logic would extend to firing employees because of race or gender, Les failed to provide a clear answer. Comey's lawyer, Ellen Blaine, called the DOJ's position a "novel and breathtaking theory of presidential power."
  — Quote: “It both tells you the quality of the people that this organization typically has and the cost with Donald Trump at the top.” — James Comey (03:49)

• Impact on SDNY and DOJ Integrity (05:09 – 07:57):
  Ellen Blaine, former Civil Rights Unit chief and Maureen Comey's attorney, describes the erosion of DOJ independence:
  — Quote: “SDNY is hurting... under rules that they've never had to follow before. The rules seem to require loyalty and not following the law... That is no longer allowed in the Department of Justice.” (05:59)

• Maureen Comey’s Career and Performance:
  Ellen Blaine details Maureen’s exemplary record—prosecuting Epstein, Maxwell, P. Diddy—emphasizing she had no political context to her work and was recognized for her excellence.
  — Quote: “There was zero reason to fire Maureen Comey except for her family affiliation. That is unlawful and it is chilling.” (07:19)

2. Constitutional Stakes and Next Steps in Court

• The Constitutional Crisis in Focus (07:57 – 12:35):
  Blaine asserts the administration is openly arguing the president can override laws passed by Congress, court orders, and the Bill of Rights, putting millions of federal employees’ protections at risk.
  — Quote: “He can fire you if you're female, he can fire you if you're Black... That upends decades and in fact, centuries of this country's foundational principles.” (07:59)

• Merit Systems Protection Board (MSPB) & Administrative Capture (09:29 – 12:35):
  The administration allegedly manipulated the administrative review process for firings (e.g., by removing opposition from boards and directing outcomes by executive order). Judge ruled such firings must be reviewed by Article III federal courts, not just administrative bodies under presidential control.

• Discovery Phase Commencing:
  The government admits Comey wasn’t fired for cause or performance. Discovery will focus on who made the decision and the recertification of the firing under a new Attorney General.

3. The Human and Institutional Cost: "Article II" Firings and Expert Exodus

• Mass Exodus from DOJ/FBI and National Security Risk (12:45 – 15:41):
  Glenn Thrush explains how the administration’s political purges—now coined getting “Article two’d”—are not limited to liberals, but sweep away experienced, non-partisan law enforcement professionals, crippling core government functions.

• Loss of Talent and Institutional Memory:
  Most-experienced prosecutors and agents have left, directly damaging national security efforts (e.g., National Security Division “gutted” by Attorney General Pam Bondi); remaining staff lack the experience to pursue even the administration’s stated objectives.

• Personal Toll on Public Servants (16:27 – 19:41):
  Michael Feinberg, former FBI senior official, highlights the heartbreak of being forced out despite a lifelong calling to public service.
  — Quote: “There’s not a single one of us who, given the opportunity, would not rather be a public servant... that sort of nonpartisan motivation, that sort of patriotic sense of duty is now something that's actually being held against government employees.” (16:27)

4. Chilling Effects and Consequences for Federal Service

• Compromise and Morale (18:14 – 19:54):
  Feinberg criticizes those who remain and comply with politically motivated purges, calling it a “moral compromise” of their oath. He posits more resistance from careerists could have slowed or stopped the administration’s overhaul.

• What Maureen Comey Wants from the Case:
  Blaine says the goal is not just personal redress but a clear judicial rule that presidents cannot fire civil servants for illegal or discriminatory reasons, restoring faith and protections for all federal employees.

5. Ongoing Legal Struggles: DOJ’s “Slush Fund” and Policy Failures

• Trump DOJ Initiatives Stifled by Courts (22:45 – 25:06):
  Wallace and Thrush discuss the judicial blockage of Trump’s so-called “anti-weaponization” DOJ fund—a $1.8 billion account critics call a presidential slush fund. Some insiders quietly welcome the judicial intervention as an escape from defending bad policy, highlighting the dysfunction at leadership levels.

• Lack of Internal Resistance:
  DOJ officials reportedly wait for courts to block Trump’s initiatives rather than confronting him directly—a “pathetic” abdication (Wallace: 24:51).

• Maximalism and Psychological Surrender (26:07 – 28:50):
  Once leaders in DOJ accept Trump’s demands, resistance vanishes; the department is forced to pursue cases or policies even they know are doomed.

• Feinberg’s Rebuke:
  He contends that anyone welcoming court intervention—rather than standing up internally—should reconsider their personal and professional integrity.
  — Quote: “There is a much easier way for them to not have to defend those initiatives... At a certain point, you have to decide what's more important: your job title or your ability to look in the mirror or look in your children's eyes.” (27:25)

6. The Culture at the Top: Loyalty and Diminished Dissent

• Deference to Trump and Cabinet Subservience (28:50 – 30:34):
  Wallace remarks on the surreal displays of sycophancy at a Trump cabinet meeting, comparing it to authoritarian regimes and emphasizing the personal and institutional disgrace for those humoring the president.

• Rev. Al Sharpton on Moral Collapse:
  Sharpton underscores the long-lasting shame and lack of self-awareness among administration officials who enable or ignore egregious behavior. — Quote: “Do you really want in your life story that you did this kind of stuff...? You're sitting there like you’re in some old folks residence talking to grandpa, humoring him, but he’s the President...” (29:38)

7. Immigration Enforcement Abuses and Federal Overreach

• DHS Threats and NJ Immigration Detention Crisis (33:03 – 39:23):
  DHS Secretary Markwayne Mullen proposes diverting customs agents from airports to punish protestors at a New Jersey ICE facility, despite having no operational logic or justification.
  Dan Goldman, after a facility tour, reports on conditions: worms in food, medical neglect, and retaliation against detainees. Many detainees have no criminal record and lawfully applied for status.
  — Quote: “These people are paying taxes that are then turned around and being used to imprison them in a pretty brutal and horrific jail.” (34:54)

• Retaliation and Lack of Due Process:
  Trump administration purges immigration judges, installs loyalists, denies due process to detainees, and even blocks the NJ Governor’s inspection, exercising “nitpicky lawlessness” and stonewalling oversight.

• Sharpton: Moral Outrage:
  Sharpton describes the inhumanity and moral crisis:
  — Quote: “At some point, morality should kick in... This is happening and what we’re getting ready to celebrate the land of the free and the home of the brave. It really is a challenge to who we say we are.” (40:19)

8. Trump’s Political Decline and Leadership Vacuum

• Unhinged Leadership and Institutional Enablers (42:31 – 43:54):
  Sharpton and Wallace discuss Trump's erratic behavior, disengagement from key issues, and increasing incoherence, seeing those around him as complicit enablers who will someday have to explain their roles in undermining American values and institutions.

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Notable Quotes and Timestamps

• James Comey (on Maureen Comey's firing):
  “That's stupid. That's immoral. That's illegal in my view, and painful.” (03:49)

• Ellen Blaine (on DOJ’s new rules):
  “The rules seem to require loyalty and not following the law. The rules require pledges of acquiescence and not actually giving your client legal advice... That is no longer allowed in the Department of Justice.” (05:59)

• Ellen Blaine (on Maureen Comey):
  “She is the lawyer the office turns to when excellence is a must... There was zero reason to fire Maureen Comey except for her family affiliation. That is unlawful and it is chilling.” (07:19)

• Ellen Blaine (on the stakes):
  “He can fire you if you're female, if you're black... That upends decades and in fact, centuries of this country's foundational principles. And it should be chilling...” (07:59)

• Glenn Thrush (on Article II firings):
  “It's become a verb. You get ‘Article two’d.’ ...This isn't just in Civil Rights... We're talking about core law enforcement functions. So this is hamstringing these organizations.” (12:45)

• Michael Feinberg (on the calling of public service):
  “There’s not a single one of us who, given the opportunity, would not rather be a public servant... that sort of nonpartisan motivation, that sort of patriotic sense of duty is now something that's actually being held against government employees.” (16:27)

• Michael Feinberg (on DOJ's moral compromise):
  “What they're doing is very much a moral compromise of the oath they took. And if more careerists stood up... I don't know that the Trump administration would be able to do what it has done...” (18:14)

• Nicolle Wallace (on institutional weakness):
  “They're too weak to tell Donald Trump this is a crappy idea. So they waste the country's time. They gum up the judicial system so that a judge can knock it down. I mean, that's... pathetic. Wrapped in tragedy.” (24:51)

• Michael Feinberg (on why insiders should quit):
  “If people at the Justice Department are of the opinion, thank God the courts are stepping in to stop our initiatives, there is a much easier way for them to not have to defend those initiatives... At a certain point, you have to decide what's more important: your job title or your ability to look in the mirror or look in your children's eyes.” (27:25)

• Rev. Al Sharpton (on immigration detention abuses):
  “This is not only a legal issue, it's a moral issue... have we become so inhumane that politics and whatever policy you believes in allows us to treat human beings like this?” (40:19)

• Dan Goldman (on detained immigrants’ conditions):
  “It's as if these are serious criminals who have done some horrible thing, when in reality... most... have no criminal record whatsoever, but have lawful applications... These people are paying taxes that are then turned around and being used to imprison them...” (34:54)

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Timestamps for Major Topics

• Introduction and Maureen Comey case: 01:00 – 07:57
• SDNY exodus and DOJ dysfunction: 05:27 – 12:35
• Impact on U.S. government competence and motivation: 12:45 – 19:54
• Trump DOJ initiatives (slush fund, court interference): 22:45 – 28:50
• Trump cabinet culture and leadership: 28:50 – 30:34
• Immigration enforcement, DHS moves, facility abuses: 33:03 – 39:23
• Moral accountability and outlook: 40:13 – 43:54

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Conclusion

This episode presents a grim but urgent portrait of the state of U.S. public service under the Trump administration’s second term—a federal workforce demoralized or purged for “disloyalty,” the collapse of institutional checks, and the willingness of the political leadership to sacrifice competence, legality, and morality for raw presidential power. The panel’s insiders, legal experts, and advocates highlight the cost to civil liberties, national security, and the basic promise of American public service—warning that protecting the rule of law now depends on renewed vigilance, resistance, and urgent restoration of principle-driven government.

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. We made it to Friday. It's four o'clock in New York. The Trump administration admitting the quiet part out loud in a Manhattan courthouse Thursday, saying that they do indeed believe Donald Trump is king, that every public servant in the federal government is there to serve Donald Trump and Donald Trump only. That apparently includes those responsible for upholding the most fundamentally nonpartisan and small d democratic principle there is, and that is the rule of law. That stunning public admission came in a hearing in a lawsuit filed by Maureen Comey. She is a former federal prosecutor. She's also the daughter of former director of the FBI Trump critic Jim Comey. She alleges that she was fired illegally, either largely or entirely because of her family name. Politico is reporting this on that hearing Thursday. Quote, DOJ lawyer Karen Les parents said at the pretrial hearing that Maureen Comey's firing was valid, quote, even if there were political motivations. Even if there were political motivations. Okay, a reminder. Maureen Comey says she was fired after her dad posted on Instagram an image of beach shells that were shaped in the formation of four letters 8647. He took it down almost immediately, but Donald Trump and his allies jumped on it, claiming it was some sort of threat. Jim Comey was indicted for that post on your screen right now last month. But after the post, right wing influencer and Trump ally Laura Loomer started to beat the drum to pressure then Attorney General Pam Bondi to fire Maureen Comey. So in Comey's telling, political motivations are the entire reason why she was subsequently fired. And now Trump's DOJ is arguing that even if that's the case, it's somehow acceptable. Politico reports that the judge pressed DOJ on that claim. On the claim that Trump can fire anyone based on politics, quote. Could the president, for example, decide to fire people in order to achieve an all white executive branch or all black? He asked Justice Department attorney Karen Les. Parents stammered in response, finally saying, quote, I can't answer on behalf of the government. Furman replied, quote, you are here representing the government. An attorney for Maureen Comey, Ellen Blaine, said in court that the DOJ's position was a, quote, novel and breathtaking theory of presidential power. In former FBI Director Jim Comey's view, it's also stupid, immoral and tragic. Here's what he had to say about his daughter's firing on this program a couple weeks ago.

[Jim Comey]

Right My daughter was a superstar prosecutor in the Southern District of New York and was fired only because she has my last name. That's stupid. That's immoral. That's illegal in my view, and painful. She'll be okay. I mean, she got a job at a law firm and someday I hope she'll go back to the Department of Justice. My son in law, who was the deputy chief of National Security at that Virginia U.S. attorney's office, quit the day they first indicted me. Also. Just a tragedy to have that apolitical talent leave the department. God willing, he'll be back someday. But it both tells you the quality of the people that this organization typically has and the cost with Donald Trump at the top.

[Nicole Wallace]

Team Trump arguing in a court of law out loud that Donald Trump can fire whomever he wants for any reason he wants. In a case that has come to encapsulate and define his purge of the Justice Department is where we start today. New York Times Justice Department reporter Ben Thrush is back with us. Plus, former assistant special agent in charge of the FBI National Security and intelligence analyst for US Michael Feinberg is back. He filed an amicus brief in support of Maureen Comey. And here at the table with me for the first time, the aforementioned Ellen Blaine. She was chief of the Civil Rights Unit and an assistant U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. She now represents Maureen Comey. Thank you for being here.

[Ellen Blaine]

Thank you for having me.

[Nicole Wallace]

So just quickly, just to be on the record, how did you come to leave the office of the Southern District of New York?

[Ellen Blaine]

I left before the election. So I left for various reasons. I had been there a very long time. I love the office. I love the Department of Justice. But My decision had nothing to do with politics.

[Nicole Wallace]

But you have witnessed now, as someone who was once inside, what has been, I think, an unprecedented level or volume of departures from that office. Danielle Sassoon and her deputies and then Maureen Comey and others. Can you just speak? Because we try to sort of from the outside assess. And I think last time Glenn was here, I put him on the spot to try to quantify how hollowed out how, what the deficit is in terms of manpower inside some of the biggest offices. Can you speak to that at sdny?

[Ellen Blaine]

I mean, it breaks my heart is what I can say. SDNY is hurting the entire Department of Justice. Hurting. They are under rules that they've never had to follow before. And the rules seem to require loyalty and not following the law. The rules require pledges of acquiescence and not actually giving your client legal advice and explaining the litigation risks and the do's and don'ts, what the law requires, what the Constitution requires and what the law prohibits. That is no longer allowed in the Department of Justice. SCNY has seen a number of people, particularly in the civil division, which is where I worked, leave over the past 18 months in a wave that we have never seen before. And that makes perfect sense because this administration has made very clear that DOJ is not to do DOJ's job. And as an SCNY former AUSA, you know, it was very proud and clear that our goal was to do justice, to follow the law and the facts without fear or favor, no matter where they led. And that's exactly what Maureen Comey did for her decade in federal service. We leading some of the most high profile prosecutions in the office. And because her last name is Comey, she was fired. That is a different DOJ than we have seen before.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is there anything in the work she did or the cases she worked on that had any, any reasonable person could interpret as political?

[Ellen Blaine]

Absolutely not. She was a career civil servant. She served under Democratic administrations, under Republican administrations, under the first Trump administration. She, she prosecuted Jeffrey Epstein, she prosecuted Maxwell, she prosecuted P. Diddy. She received outstandings on every single one of her performance reports. In fact, the office said in one of her reports that she is the lawyer the office turns to when excellence is a must. And that is true. She is, as her father said, a superstar attorney. There was zero reason to fire Maureen Comey except for her family affiliation. That is unlawful and it is chilling

[Nicole Wallace]

what happened in court yesterday.

[Ellen Blaine]

So we are in court because Maureen Comey has brought this lawsuit, right, alleging that her firing is in fact Unlawful. And that's important. It's unlawful in various ways. It's unlawful because it violates laws passed by Congress 150 years ago and followed by every single president since Chester Arthur until today. It also violates the First Amendment and the Fifth Amendment. So it violates our fundamental Bill of Rights in the US Constitution. But her case is broader than that. Her case is actually about whether the President can do that. Can the President violate the laws of the United States? Can the president violate the U.S. constitution? And yesterday in court, we heard that answer loud and clear. The answer is yes. The answer is the president can exercise his article 2 power however he sees fit. So he can fire you if you're female, he can fire you if you're black, he can fire you if you're white, he can. He can fire you in order to create an all white federal service. He can fire you just because of your last name. That upends decades and in fact, centuries of this country's foundational principles. And it should be chilling not just to all the federal civil servants, and there are at least 2 million of them in this country who have federal civil service protections. It should be chilling to all of us because we no longer have the rights that we thought we did.

[Nicole Wallace]

What happens to the case now? Does it, does it go up to the, does it go to a higher court? Or is that the judgment? Is that the, are those the rules under which we live as long as Donald Trump is president?

[Ellen Blaine]

Well, this case, to be clear, is about whether or not he can fire an ausa, a federal prosecutor, and right now on the books, what we have is an order from the judge that, that dispute, that fundamental question about our separation of powers belongs in federal court and not in an administrative body, which is what the federal government tried to do. Just to back up for a second, normally when a federal employee is fired, they go to something called the mspb, which people really hadn't heard about, but now has sort of come to light. It's the Merit Systems Protection Board, another acronym. And you're supposed to go and have like a fair and impartial hearing about whether or not the government.

[Nicole Wallace]

And let me just interrupt and ask you, because we've covered with Glenn and with Michael, a lot of the fired FBI agents, a lot of, I mean, is that the kind of body that would look at all those firings?

[Ellen Blaine]

Yes.

[Nicole Wallace]

So they've been busy.

[Ellen Blaine]

They. Well, they should have been busy, but the president fired the only Democratic member to eviscerate a quorum. He then appointed a new member that is frankly his henchmen, it looks like. And he issued an executive order that said, you administrative body, you have to interpret the law the way that I tell you to. So now the judges, the administrative body who would normally oversee this type of case is in his back pocket. And this federal judge said, enough. That's not how the statute works. If you federal government are going to fire somebody citing a constitutional power, not a statutory power, your constitutional power under Article 2, then that fight does not belong before that body. That fight belongs before an Article 3 judge. So that's the decision we have on the books. Now we go into proving our case right. The government has now admitted that she wasn't fired for cause. They have said as of Tuesday in their answer filed on the public docket that she was not fired for cause, that she was not fired for her performance. So why was she fired? That's the question. And that's the question we're going to get answered through discovery. Hopefully it will take depositions. Of the people who purportedly made the decision. They now claim it's Attorney General Bondi. At the same time, Attorney General Bondi is no longer with the government. So they've recertified her decision with the current acting Attorney General, Todd Blanch, bringing up all sorts of thorny issues about how this works. But the reason this is important is because, just as a very quick reminder, a little civics lesson here in grade school, but there's Article 1 of our Constitution creates Congress. Article 2 of our Constitution creates the executive branch, puts the president in charge, and Article 3 creates the court system. And then you have the Bill of Rights. What this administration has said from day one is that Article two is more important than anything else. You can take that power, you can ignore laws passed by Congress under Article 1, you may be able to ignore court orders issued under Article 3. And now, as of yesterday, in open court, you can also ignore the Bill of Rights. You can fire somebody in violation of their First Amendment right to speech, their First Amendment right to association, equal protection, due process, all these things that we hold near and dear are no longer applicable to the President of the United States.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Glenn, I can think of dozens of people that you have covered over the last 18 months who are going to be watching this case very, very closely.

[Glenn Thrush]

Yeah, I mean, like in the Trump, in the Trump, I should call it the Trump Justice Department, it's become a verb. You get Article two. These are the letters and emails that dozens and dozens of employees at the Justice Department and at the FBI have gotten. The one thing I want to say is, you know, when I tweet some of these cases out, and a bunch of them have been FBI agents who are by no means liberals, okay? These are not deep state people. These are people who hate talking to reporters but were forced out because of their perceived work on. Because of their work on the Jack Smith case or for any other reason that Cash Patel or Dan Bongino, his former deputy, wanted. And people, people out there, seriously in the world out there, think that. That this is entirely appropriate and normal and that the Democrats did it when they were in power. Right. And that this is business as usual. It is really important for people to understand out there who are not. Who are not privy to these procedures, who are not particularly partisan, to know that this is extremely unusual and it has resulted in the gutting of competence in all of these agencies. And this isn't. This isn't just in the Civil Rights Division or in areas, you know, that are perceived to be populated by liberals. We're talking about core law enforcement functions. So this is hamstringing these organizations. And frankly, over the last six or seven weeks, I think it's finally hit the political appointees at the top of the Justice Department, particularly in the Civil Rights Division, just how detrimental all of these forced either transfers or Article 2 firings have had on their own capacity to competently pursue their own agenda.

[Nicole Wallace]

How has it done that, Glenn?

[Glenn Thrush]

Because essentially, you're taking this entire layer of extremely experienced people. And by the way, as Ellen I'm sure knows, the folks who leave first are the ones who have the most alternatives in the private sector. They have rich job opportunities. So immediately you eviscerate from your department the most experienced people. And a perfect example of that was in the National Security Division, which Pam Bondi decided relatively arbitrarily just to gut. And frankly, she redeployed them shortly after taking office on the Epstein files case because she did not value what they were doing. Well, now we're in an extraordinarily perilous situation in terms of our overseas conflict. Would be. It would be kind of nice to have a fully staffed National Security Division at the Justice Department that isn't present. So you're dealing with. In order for the Trump administration to pursue the 90% of their agenda, which is vanilla conservative stuff, law enforcement, things that most department employees would have no problem pursuing, they've gotten rid of all the people who are capable of expediting that, so they can't really even pursue their own core agenda.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, one such individual is on the panel with us, Michael Fiberg. I mean, your national security. We are greatly. We benefit every day, every time you're here from your national security expertise. But it is, I'll say it is a tragedy that we're the beneficiaries and not the American people, and that we even know about you. I mean, your work as an anonymous. I don't mean undercover, but just someone who did your job, wasn't talking about it, but was sort of on the line for the American people. Protecting our national security was something that I imagine you wouldn't have walked away from until and unless Donald Trump came in and politicized the department and gutted it of all of its experts like yourself.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, you know, people always think about the rule of law in terms of political philosophy or jurisprudence, but there's a real human element to it. And one of the tragedies of everything that's happened over roughly the past year and a half is that so many people, and I count myself among this group, who are motivated by nothing but a desire to serve their country and protect their fellow citizens, had that privilege ripped from that. And what makes it even more sorrowful is that I don't know a single one of us myself, senior executives, line agents, prosecutors. I'm sure Maureen Comey, despite having very much landed on her feet, would feel the same. There's not a single one of us who, given the opportunity, would not rather be a public servant. I like commentating on what's going on in the news, and I like being able to express opinions in a forum that was previously not open to me, but it wasn't my calling. My calling was to serve our country. It was to serve our flag. It was to ensure the safety of individuals who needed assistance. And it's amazing to me that that sort of nonpartisan motivation, that sort of patriotic sense of duty is now something that's actually being held against government employees.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, let me just ask you to pull the thread a little more tautly. What does it mean if people who were loyal to the country have been kicked out of the Bureau?

[Michael Feinberg]

It means that the Bureau leadership, because I'm talking largely about senior executives here, the Bureau leadership that has remained, unfortunately, whether by happenstance, unthinkingly or purposefully, are somewhat bending to Cash Patel's will. You know, you can't fire somebody from the FBI, just as you can't fire somebody from DOJ without involving a whole bunch of other career officials. Kash Patel can make the decision. Todd Blanch or before him. Pam Bondi can make the decision. But there are people in the Human resources division, in the security offices, in the field offices and U.S. attorney's offices who carry out those orders and allow the machine to work. And maybe I'm being overly judgmental of them, maybe I'm being too harsh, but what they're doing is very much a moral compromise of the oath they took. And if more careerists stood up, put their foot down, and put the people they were supposed to protect ahead of their own parochial interests, I don't know that the Trump administration would be able to do what it has done to the federal government.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I start to hear that more and more, mostly privately. Ellen, what is Maureen's hope for the outcome of this case? Does she feel that way? Would she like to go back into the department?

[Ellen Blaine]

She most fundamentally wants there to be a clear rule that the president of the United States cannot do this to federal employees, that those hardworking career men and women who have sworn an oath to the Constitution and who want to protect and defend this country can do that without being worried that they're going to be fired tomorrow because of their skin color. That is what she wants. And I hope that we will get that soon.

[Nicole Wallace]

Can I put you on the spot and ask you to come back and keep us posted as the case moves forward?

[Ellen Blaine]

Sure.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you so much for being here today.

[Ellen Blaine]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're grateful to you. When we come back, not so fast. A federal judge has pumped the brakes on the Justice Department's $1.8 billion slush fund for Donald Trump's use. And just in the last few minutes, another judge telling Donald Trump to take his name off of buildings where it doesn't rightfully belong. We'll tell you about that, too. Plus, six months after the suit, citizens of Minneapolis demanded that no one in this country look away from Donald Trump's immigration enforcement abuses. Another city is asking the same of us. We'll speak to one of the members of Congress bearing witness at a federal immigration center in New Jersey. And later in the broadcast, just how toxic has the Trump brand become? From artists to audiences, he's struggling to recruit anyone to attend his upcoming events. All those stories and much more when Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Your name is Donald J. Trump. The legal hits keep coming today. Earlier, a federal judge out of Virginia ruled that DOJ's so called anti weaponization fund must freeze and that no money can be dispersed until she hears a motion challenging the fund's very existence. Also coming down this afternoon, a judge has permanently blocked Trump from adding his name to the Kennedy center, ordering the administration to remove all physical signage and other official documentation that names the Kennedy center after anyone other than Kennedy. That has to happen within 14 days. The judge also temporarily blocked the center from being closed for two years for renovations. Joining me at the table, host of Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton. Glenn and Michael are still here. Glenn, there's the humiliating aspect to these stories, putting his name up. And now someone is going to have to climb on top of that ladder and unscrew the D O N and all the other letters of his name. But there's all of the losing. I mean, what is left in terms of legal acumen in the Department of Justice if they can't win a case?

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, I don't want to give the Trump administration any ideas, but is it possible they could save face by renaming it after the Louisiana senator? Just a thought. Look, I'll be honest with you on the weaponization fund thing. I would imagine I more than would imagine. I know that there are people, political appointees in the Justice Department and in the White House who are really, really happy or would be very happy if this thing died a quiet judicial death so that they were not forced to defend it. And that they were not forced to have a confrontation with the Senate Republicans in the Senate who feel newly liberated from Donald Trump and are very antithetical to this proposal. So this is one of those instances in which a court rebuke against Trump probably is viewed relatively positively by a lot of people at doj.

[Nicole Wallace]

But that's pathetic. They're too weak to tell Donald Trump this is a crappy idea. So they waste the country's time. They gum up the judicial system so that a judge can knock it down. I mean, that's, that's, that's pathetic. Wrapped in tragedy.

[Ellen Blaine]

What?

[Nicole Wallace]

Wrapped in a waste of everybody's time and money.

[Glenn Thrush]

Don't blame me. I'm just the messenger.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Nicole.

[Glenn Thrush]

I mean, I think the, I think the. I think it just reflects this whole dynamic that you see playing out every, everywhere else. This second term of Donald Trump is entirely predicated on the notion that the first term had too much pushback, really. Like the chief of staff at the White House, Susie Wiles, her main directive is that there be fewer leaks and much less dissension on some of these decisions. There is no dissension in the Department of Justice, as you said, and you're 100% right. So what are they forced to do? We're forced to, for instance, have a strategy of bringing cases in D.C. that are no true build that prosecutors know are going to get shot down by grand juries. So because Trump is an immovable force, they are looking to all these other modalities to do their dirty work for them so that they don't have to say no to him. You're 100% right. As you can see, they just walk

[Nicole Wallace]

around with, like, buckets of blue paint. So they just go paint the reflecting pool the color he wants. He's. I mean, what do they do all day?

[Glenn Thrush]

I think they try to figure out. Look, I think they try to figure out how to manage to. The psychology inside the administration is fascinating. I think there are people, and I think Blanche was one of them, though I'm not sure he still is thought that I am going to have to do X, Y and Z in order to keep my job. Because in my heart of hearts, I know that I support the institution and rule of law. And if I'm on the inside, I can do things to make sure that on some sense, it's functionally functioning nominally on a law and order basis. But I think Trump is a maximalist and he never runs out of demand. So I think once you have said yes to Trump and showed him that you are not going to resist. The game is basically over. And I think a lot of the people on the inside are just now. And maybe the specter of the midterms and being hauled before House committees might be changing that, but I think they are just now realizing that Trump, you know, that any notion that they had of being able to shape their world, shape the Justice Department, beyond what Trump wants, is a canard.

[Nicole Wallace]

Michael Feinberg, your thoughts?

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, I have to push back very strongly against the mindset that Glenn just described. If people at the Justice Department are of the opinion, thank God the courts are stepping in to stop our initiatives, there is a much easier way for them to not have to defend those initiatives. If you really care about the integrity of the Justice Department, if you really care about the independence of the Justice Department, if you really care about the rule of law, then you should be intelligent enough to recognize that you can't protect any of those things while bending to these people's will. There was a time at the beginning of this administration where there was an argument. I myself bought into it and it's why I stayed as long as I did, that we need good people of integrity inside the organizations to pump the brakes on the more extreme efforts. But it's become abundantly clear, not just in DOJ and the FBI, but in the whole of the executive branch that you can't pump the brakes. And at a certain point, you have to decide what's more important. Your job title or your ability to look in the mirror or look in your children's eyes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, I mean, I wish I still had it, but there was a cabinet meeting this week, and I. And I. I don't pretend to have an eye for AI. So I'm never sure if something's real or not. And I send to my much smarter, much younger team a million things a day. I'm like a grandma. Is this real or is this AI? The cabinet meeting? If I had to bet, I would have bet all the money I have that it was AI. I did not think grown ass men and women could talk to a president at 32% like he was Kim Jong Un and they all were in front of a firing squad. If they didn't tell him he was tall, thin, and hotter than hot. They. These people talked to Donald Trump in a way that I really would have thought was fake because they spoke as though the punishment would be death if they didn't puff him up.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

It is frightening that we're in that kind of environment and you could see it. And I agree with what was just said that yes, if you believe in the Justice Department and what you went to law school for and with worked your way into the Justice Department, you would therefore uphold certain standards. But if you have personal integrity, I mean how do you look at yourself there will be the day Donald Trump walks out. Do you really want in your life story that you did this kind of stuff and that if you're a cabinet member as you refer to that, you're sitting there like you're in some old folks residence talking to grandpa, humoring him, but he's the President of the United States that has ammunition world decisions in his hands. I mean they must have no self awareness that this is going to be part of their life that they will never be able to explain.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And all of the loudest critiques and the sharpest ones are now coming from the right. I mean they're coming from John Cornyn's Twitter feed and Senator Bob Cassidy and Thomas Massie and and the Republicans who've humiliated themselves for a decade now. Glenn Thrush I never mean to unload on the messenger. I'm always grateful to the messenger. Thank you. Michael Feinberg, thank you for starting us off today. The Rev sticks around a little bit longer. The Department of Homeland Security is threatening to pull customs agents from a huge international airport just ahead of the summer travel season as punishment for the protests outside of that city's ICE detention facility. We're just not sure who they're intending to punish, but we'll get to that reporting next.

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Michael Feinberg]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Jim Comey]

So since they won't respond and help protect the streets because we're not saying protect our building, we're saying protect the allow our employees to go in and out, allow these transfers to happen. If they're not allowing it, then we got to prioritize federal police officers and that may affect international flights coming in and out of their airport because I'm going to have to pull custom and border protection officers out of being able to process international flights and put them helping our ICE agents.

[Nicole Wallace]

That was Donald Trump, Secretary of Homeland Security, a man named Mark Wayne Mullen attempting in that interview to justify what many people find to be an utterly crazy and nonsensical policy proposal that he and the Trump administration have spent the week publicly road testing, which is to potentially bar cities they deem sanctuary cities from accepting passengers from international flights into the United States, as though the passengers on international flights have anything to do with anything. Mark Wayne Mullen has threatened to pull resources from airports like Newark Liberty International and New Jersey in response to what is happening outside of the Delaney hall immigration detention facility. What's happening there is that protesters and public officials have gathered after multiple reports have emerged of inhumane conditions and an ongoing hunger strike inside. Donald Trump's immigration agents have even barred New Jersey's Governor Mikey Sherrill from seeing what's taking place inside the facility in the state she runs. We should note DHS denies these reports of mistreatment at Delaney, but again, refuses to allow folks like the governor to go inside. I want to bring into our coverage Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York. He toured Delaney hall on Wednesday. Tell us what you saw, Congressman.

[Dan Goldman]

Well, it basically is a packed jail, a criminal jail with really, you know, barely sufficient conditions, not enough food, reports of food having worms in it, no medical attention. It's not even clear that there's a doctor on the premises with 700 people. Anytime there's an issue, they get Tylenol. I met with one woman who needed a mammogram from a lump in her breast a month ago and has not Received it. Yet another man has colon cancer and has not gotten any treatment. They are not allowed now, in retaliation for the protests, to use video tablets to speak to their families. They do not have visitation rights. They are not, in many cases, allowed to go outside. It is, it is as if these are serious criminals who have done some horrible thing, when in reality, by necessity, because it's a low security facility, no one there has a serious criminal conviction. And in fact, most of the people that I spoke to not only have no criminal record whatsoever, but have lawful applications to immigrate here and have been arrested nonetheless. A number or have work authorizations. And they pay taxes. So, Nicole, what that means is these. These people are paying taxes that are then turned around and being used to imprison them in a pretty brutal and horrific jail.

[Nicole Wallace]

And what is their. What is available to them in terms of getting out, getting health care, having their legal applications heard by a judge?

[Dan Goldman]

Well, that's another problem that we run into now. But because there are so many cases, the immigration system is overwhelmed. Donald Trump, of course, has already removed about 200 of the 700 immigration judges. And remember, immigration court falls under the executive branch. So Donald Trump has threatened that if any immigration judges do not do what he wants, they will be fired. And way over 100 have been fired. And the new people are just loyalists like everybody else who works in the executive branch. So there's no due process whatsoever, nor is there real due process for any of these people when they're arrested. One person I spoke to has been here 23 years as an American wife, three American children, citizens. He showed up to his green card interview, he got arrested, and he's been in jail for several months, having no idea when and if he will get out or if his case will be heard.

[Nicole Wallace]

Why? What is your understanding for their rationale for not allowing New Jersey Governor Mikey Sherrill inside? Like, how were you able to get in and others aren't.

[Ellen Blaine]

Right.

[Dan Goldman]

Well, the difference is I led 11 of my colleagues in a lawsuit against ICE to force them to members of Congress to conduct oversight because we have a statutory right to do that under the appropriations bills. Governor Sherrill is not a federal employee. She's a state employee. She would not fall under that statute. She, of course, runs the entire state and has certainly has jurisdiction over a good chunk of what is, at a minimum, surrounding the place. So it's kind of. It's absurd for them to have said that she cannot inspect it, given that it's in her state. But this is the Kind of nitpicky lawlessness that we're dealing with. ICE is trying to obstruct any and all oversight. They are putting completely arbitrary deadlines and notices just to make it harder for us to do oversight. I am able to go to 26 Federal Plaza here in New York City, and I do at least once a week. I've been to the MDC in Brooklyn several times where I've met with, with detainees. But other than that, they're making it as difficult as they possibly can because they don't want oversight, because they don't want anyone to uncover what is really going on.

[Nicole Wallace]

Congressman Dan Goldman, thank you for your work there and thank you for spending some time with us to talk about it.

[Dan Goldman]

Thank you.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring Rev into this conversation. I have to sneak in a quick break before I do that. We'll be right back on the other side. Don't go anywhere. Rebecca the rev Rev, There are no humans for whom the minutes and hours of the Trump presidency are ticking by more slowly than people who have been detained, people who have no criminal past, people who have done nothing wrong other than to be in process. As the congressman said there, what do we do to support them and help them?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Everything we can do. Because this is not only a legal issue, it's a moral issue.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I mean, when you hear people saying that there were worms in their food, maybe not a doctor with 700 inmates, have we become so inhumane that politics and whatever policy you believes in allows us to treat human beings like this and we look in the mirror at ourselves as decent people? I mean, at some point, morality should kick in. And you're right, the anxiety of sitting there. You know, I've led protests in life where we went to jail. I went for three months once when Bush was in on the Vieques protest. But we knew when we were getting out these people and we had visitors and we had lawyers. These people have no idea when they're getting out. No representation, no visits, sitting there. Imagine sitting there eating food that may have a worm in it. Don't have a doctor access and you don't know how long you're going to be there and what's going on. This is happening and what we're getting ready to celebrate. The land of the free and the home of the brave. It really is a challenge to who we say we are.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. In the United States of America. I want to ask you about the sorts of things that they're obviously trial ballooning and that is taking agents away from international airports there's absolutely no connection between an international traveler and the people inside the detention centers.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And no training. People that are trained to do international airports and to look for certain things coming in the country are not trained to go out in front of a facility. And if there's some disturbances, how you handle that? So it's absurd on his face and it's just moving things around like blocks or pieces on a chessboard with no thought, no strategy. How am I if I'm working at international arrivals at Newark Airport trying to handle a demonstration in front of the lady? It doesn't even make sense. But for them to stand up there and say it and we act like this is a normal statement, then something's wrong with us. Somebody should have said them. That doesn't even make sense. These people are not trained for that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. What do you make of this moment? I mean, we talked about the Cabinet meeting where they're obviously pumping him up with nonsense. His approval rating is somewhere between 30, 31, 32, 33. The things he says about the economy seem to run the numbers even lower. He says, I don't care. I don't care about the midterms. I don't care about their economic standing. What do you see in Trump right now?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think that Trump is unhinged, and I think that the people around him are going day by day trying to manage the fact that he is. He's really all over the place. He's unhinged. As I watch him and listen to him, he's becoming more and more not only incoherent, but he's not even consistent. We Trump one, we at least saw where he was going and he would go there and we disagree. Yeah, he's all over the place.

[Nicole Wallace]

He'd call it the weep and this. I mean, he doesn't seem to talk about anything in sentences except paint jobs

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

and building jobs and redoing the Kennedy center, which he lost. Yeah, construction doesn't make sense. So at nine in the morning, we're close to deal with Iran and 10 o', clock, you know, I'll run through there and take your. And then, I mean, I mean, there is a real problem there and the people around him at best are allowing it and coaching it, and it tells us a lot about them.

[Nicole Wallace]

Sure does. Rep. Thank you for being here today. Thank you. We're going to see you. We'll all be watching on Politics Nation. You're going to have Congressman Jim Clyburn fresh off the failed Republican effort to break up his South Carolina congressional district after break Yesterday we told you about the Justice Department's investigation of E. Jean Carroll at the top of this hour yesterday and the group that helped fund her lawsuits against Donald Trump. Well, today the head of that group is calling that investigation retaliation. Yesterday we began this hour with new reporting on Donald Trump's attempts to use the Department of Justice to target E. Jean Carroll and a nonprofit co founded by Reid Hoffman, which made a contribution to E. Jean Carroll's legal defense. Today. Hoffman is firing back, writing this quote, trump was found liable for sexually assaulting E. Jean Carroll, defaming her, and now he's going after her again. Trump cannot be allowed to use the full weight and power of the US Government to come after women who speak up or anyone who supports them in doing so. It is hard enough for women to come forward and seek justice, let alone do so against the most powerful man on earth. Donald Trump's newest accusation of me is absurdly false. The premise of the investigation would be laughable if the subject matter weren't so serious. He is investigating me because I supported E. Jean's lawsuit where a jury found Donald Trump liable for sexually assaulting her and a court of appeals upheld that decision. Instead of launching retaliatory lawsuits, demolishing the White House, obsessing over ballrooms, UFC fights and putting himself on our currency, I think we all would rather the president work to bring down gas prices and actually solve the real problems we are facing. Donald Trump hopes that these fraudulent investigations will silence those who stand up to him. He is wrong. I will not bend the knee after a break. Why no one wants anything to do with the increasingly toxic Trump brand. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break.

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