Nicole Wallace (2:40)

It would be insane and crazy and dramatic about face. But we do always have to remember that that is the person who now works for a guy he once called, quote, America's Hitler and, quote, cultural heroine. The New York Times reports this. Pope Leo has a native fluency in American politics and culture, and his leadership is supported across broad swaths of the American church. Pope Leo has growing support from conservative Catholics in pews across the United States as the anniversary of his election approaches next month. He has so significantly rebuilt the Vatican's relationship with the American Catholic right and that many in Donald Trump's own camp rushed to the Pope's defense on Monday. And if the attacks against the Pope are not enough, Donald Trump's posting of an AI image of himself as Jesus Christ was indeed the straw that broke the camel's back for some Christian leaders. One conservative writer who attended J.D. vance's Catholic baptism offered this blistering criticism in the Wall Street Journal, quote, not saying Trump is the Antichrist, but he's radiating the spirit of Antichrist, no question. And even a founder of Pete Hegseth Protestant denomination called Trump's image, quote, blasphemous. The outrage is also widespread among rank and file American voters. Watch. What do you make of this?

Simone Sanders Townsend (4:08)

Personally, it's disgusting. I talked with my wife about it earlier. I mean, Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior and that right there is. I mean, that's. I don't really have words for that. That's disgusting.

Eugene Daniels (4:19)

As a Christian, how do you feel

Anthea Butler (4:21)

when you see this image?

Simone Sanders Townsend (4:23)

Offended. Yeah, I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed that, that he would actually do that. A man I voted for and trust.

Eugene Daniels (4:31)

What do you make of this? As a Christian?

Cardinal Representative (4:33)

I don't agree with it, to be honest with you. Personally, if he truthfully boasted this, I, I don't really agree with it, honestly. Politics are one thing, but stepping into that area is a little bit different, you know, a little bit stings for me, a little bit.

Nicole Wallace (4:52)

Donald Trump failing to contain the outrage from some of his most important coalition members and some of his own voters is where we start today with Media Matters for America President Angelo Carazone. Also joining us, Democratic pollster and political analyst Cornell Belcher. And Anthea Butler is back with us. She is the chair of the Religious Studies department at the University of Pennsylvania. She's the author of the book White Evangelical Racism. Anthea, I start with You. This is one of those rare political stories that isn't political at all. Right. Those three voters were Trump voters, describing themselves as, quote, disgusted, quote, ashamed and jolted. That third voter said, if this really was Donald Trump, this was Donald Trump. He owned up to it. He tried to tell those three people and all of his voters that he thought it was a picture of a doctor, which is, frankly, on the insanity metric, just as crazy, but also not credible even to his own voters. What do you make of the fact that this story is still sort of picking up steam, picking up heat, and breaking through to the American people?

Anthea Butler (6:07)

Thanks, Nicole. The story is breaking through because it's blasphemy. And you know, you know it when you see it.

Angelo Carusone (6:12)

Right.

Anthea Butler (6:13)

And this is it. And I think that what Trump has done is basically, you know, it's. It's worse than jumping the shark. He basically shot himself in the foot because you don't depict yourself as Jesus. But I also think that this is something that has been brewing for a long time. If you recall, he depicted himself a few months back as the Pope. Right. He has a real problem with people who are authority figures who are also moral figures. And so the Pope is probably the highest you can get on a figure of authority who also is a figure of morality. Right. So this is bothersome for him. But I think that the disdain and the disgust that people are feeling right now is that they're fed up with the trolling. This is like, basically, like a teenage boy doing stuff just to get your attention. But it's quite worse because it's the President of the United States who. Who claims to be a Christian, who claims to have such Christian support, and he's completely eroded that support with these kind of antics. And I think yesterday when he took everything down was somebody had to pull him aside and basically say, you know, you stepped in a big pile this time, and you need to fix this. I mean, I will say one thing. When Bishop Barron, who is someone who has been very much a Trump supporter, says you need to apologize to Pope Leo, I think that's a moment where you have to take pause and say, even if you're conservative Catholic clerics are saying you are wrong, then you are wrong, and moreover, you are absolutely out of pocket.

Nicole Wallace (7:46)

Let me show you. Let me. Let this speak for itself. This is from a 60 Minutes piece over the weekend. Yeah.

Cardinal Representative (7:57)

We're the three American cardinals that are actively serving dioceses right now. So we listen to a lot of people as part of the job description, and I think we're Aware of the anxieties of people about the threats to peace at all different levels. This is a war of choice that we went to. And I think it's embedded in a wider moment in the United States that's worrying, which is this. We're seeing before us the possibility of war after war after war. We're dehumanizing the victims of war by turning the suffering of people and the killing of children and our own soldiers into entertainment.

Nicole Wallace (8:43)

Cynthia, that was specifically about the war with Iran. But what they're able to speak to, I think so, with so much authority and precision, is that we're seeing before us the possibility of war after war. It's coming from Donald Trump and Lindsey Graham. They're talking about doing Cuban next, like wars are things you do. And then they're also taking on this, the dehumanizing of victims of war by turning the suffering of people, the killing of children and our own soldiers into entertainment. Those are done in our name as the American people. US Taxpayers fund the propaganda videos made to intersplice video game footage with war footage, which we now know in the conduct of the war, we bombed a girls school in Iran. If, if, if not directly rebuking Donald Trump. I mean, what, what is this moment, you know, what is it leading to, in your view?

Anthea Butler (9:43)

Well, I can tell you what it's leading to, and, and Trump won't like it. It's leading to the closing of the ranks of the Catholic church. That's number one, I think these three cardinals, Cardinal Cupich, Cardinal McElroy, Cardinal Tobin, they are three very powerful cardinals in this country, over New Jersey, actually, also D.C. also Chicago. So there's a lot of things going on here, and I want to unpack this very quickly. One thing is, is that Cardinal Cupich had already said back in March that this use of AI to make these kinds of images was terrible. And so if you think about all the imagery that's come from the war and then this imagery of Trump as Jesus, this is just going back to exactly what Cardinal Cupid said, which is this gamification of suffering. And the gamification of suffering is not correct. It is not right, first of all. Second, what, what they've inadvertently done is get everybody together and understand what just war theory is, as opposed to these endless wars. You just. War theory very plainly says you don't engage in war unless it's for the betterment of people in. And you also have to protect the women and the children and innocent people in the midst of war. You go to War sometimes because you have to, but you don't do it for sport. What the Trump administration is trying to do is go to war for sport. And if we think about this in relationship to polymarket and all of these things where people are betting on whether somebody's going to die or whether you pull somebody out of the desert or anything like that, this is so against Catholic teaching right now that this is bringing together the Catholic bishops in a way that nothing else has brought them together before. Before, it was all about abortion. This time they're even coming together about this war where we couldn't get them all together about immigration. So I think that this is a very interesting moment that people are not really paying attention to, because it's not just Leo, it's not just Pope Leo that he is having to fight himself against. He's having to fight against the Catholic bishops. And once you bring together these two groups, which have kind of been at odds with each other, basically back from Pope Francis, and now you're bringing them together, I think he's going to find a formidable opponent in terms of speaking out against the war, speaking out about against immigration, and speaking out about this kind of gamification of war in every way.

Nicole Wallace (12:00)

Anthea, let me read one more development to you, and then I want to bring Cornell Angelo into this. This is Pope Leo's message today. Quote, God's heart is torn apart by wars, violence, injustice and lies. But our father's heart is not with the wicked, the arrogant, or the proud. God's heart is with the little ones and the humble. And with them he builds up his kingdom of love and peace day by day. Wherever there is love and service, God is there. It would be difficult not to wonder if the wicked, arrogant and proud include Donald Trump.

Anthea Butler (12:36)

Well, you know, as they say, a hit dog always hollers. And so I gotta say it in the Texas way and just say, basically, you know, what Pope Leo was quoting is basically the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It's not anything any different than any Christian would know, Protestant or Catholic or orthodox, for that matter. Okay, so that's number one. What we're seeing here is this. And I wanted to state this as plainly as I possibly can. Whenever Pope Leo says something like this and doesn't say any name, it's a tendency for everybody to want to read this as about Trump or about the administration or about Vance or somebody else. He's not even addressing them directly. He is just addressing the truths of the gospel in a time that is very violent and virulent. For many people, and I think that for the people that he's speaking to in Algeria and later on in this week in Angola and other places that he's going to in Africa, this is a really important message. But if that message is hurting President Trump and J.D. vance and. And the Secretary of War and everybody else, then I would say that maybe they should search their hearts and understand what kind of Christianity they've been promoting vis a vis what the gospel says.

Nicole Wallace (13:44)

Angelo, lest people think this is just a conversation happening among the world's Catholics or here in this country among American Catholics, this has broken through in a big way in media and politics. This is Jimmy Kimmel.

Angelo Carusone (14:05)

This little detour into Messiah status did not get Trump the reaction he was hoping for from the Christian community overall. They're not on board with the whole false idols thing, and a lot of people were upset. So Trump or his team deleted the post, which is notable because his count almost never deletes. His crazy post. Last week, when he threatened to kill a civilization that's still up. The Jesus post is down. So, you know, this one was trouble.

Nicole Wallace (14:31)

I went and checked. It is true. The threat that may actually. Just the words of the threat alone, that threat may actually constitute a war crime. That is still up. This one came down.

Wendy Sherman (14:43)

Yeah.

Eugene Daniels (14:44)

And I think that should tell you exactly where the winds are blowing here. Right. Because it was so significant for him to take action and sort of. It's very rare that he even backs into a corner. I mean, he never explains something. Right. He always immediately goes on attack, attacks the people for not understanding his point. And I think that that is a real reflection of this larger thing that's taking place underneath it, because as you noted, it's not just Catholics. I mean, this happened, and we shouldn't ignore the cumulative effect of a string of events that took place. Trump activated. They were already pretty active, but he activated a lot of Christian nationalists and evangelicals in this country in order to help support him with the Iran war by saying, look at this. This is the prophecy. I'm doing this. You know, this is a holy war. God's on our side. So he was already trying to drag and pull them into this. And they were going along a little, maybe some. Some of them more enthusiastically. And a couple weeks ago, we posted that video where that sort of, you know, reinforced that somehow he was. That this was, you know, he was a prophet acting on behalf of God. This is a prophecy come to life. So he was taking parts of the evangelical community, and they were willing to go along because it fit the story that they were pushing. But then he did something last week, as you noted that post, it's more than just the theoretical war crime. It, it, it actually traumatized a lot of Americans. It was a very upsetting, it was scary. And then the President went out there and basically threatened to destroy civilization. It did explicitly to use nukes or something like it to indiscriminately kill massive amounts of people in our name. And we're all sort of stuck, not just with the threat and hang over our heads, but the idea that there's this ticking clock around it and there's nothing we can do and our leaders aren't doing anything to stop it and we have to sort of grapple with the anxieties of that. Everyone sort of dealt with that. And then, you know, and this had happened on the tail end of Easter, right, where he makes that comment about Allah. It's sort of deriding religion. You know, people are upset already because there's something very unsettling there. So part of this takes place in this cumulative effect where he gets up there and does this one, two punch. He sees the CBS segment he doesn't like, he then attacks the Pope and then he goes one step further by, by sort of, you know, doing this thing that his own people now are describing as blasphemous. And some are even going further. You know, it's worth noting, and I'll put a bow on all of this, that, you know, as, as, as JD Vance is out there. Front loading. Catholicism. One of the things that has also been happening in this larger space is a real grappling with good and evil. And one of the mechanisms for that is a discussion of demons. You know, I've been doing this work a long time. There's a lot of discussion in major circles about demons. Tucker Carlson did a 90 minute show all about actual demons that did the Friday before Easter, that they're among us and they're here. J.D. vance, the Vice President of the United States, while he's simultaneously frontloading Catholics, says that demons are probably the ones responsible for the UFOs. That's what he thinks they are, the Vice president. And then Trump gets out there and does this thing and what are they saying today? They're not just saying that it's blasphemous. You have others like Candace Owens and other prominent figures saying that there is something demonic happening here, that Trump isn't just doing something bad, that it's evil. And I think that that is, you know, more than just a fracture within MAGA media. And his own people, they are trying to get closer to being able to call out something that is not just bad politics, but actually evil or wrong. And I think that's the one big significant long tail, aside from all the organizing that the Pope's gonna do in this fight that Trump picked that he probably can't win, is that his own people are trying to grapple with what they're now beginning to feel internally about him.

Nicole Wallace (18:09)

Cornell Belcher, Tucker Carlson described Donald Trump as a, quote, demonic force in emails that were revealed through the course of the Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit. But it is fascinating how quickly Donald Trump has inspired intense animosity toward himself from his own coalition.

Simone Sanders Townsend (18:34)

No, it is amazing, but it's also such a fantastic story and Elton Cole. We've been around politics a long time. I've never seen such a story, by the way, just personal note, I could listen to you and Professor Butler talk about the gospel religiosity all day long. I was completely fascinated by that conversation. It's absolutely so smart. And I learned and I've learned so much. But now I got to talk about politics. Sorry, I got to dumb it down now. You know, part of, part of the thing is, you know, what, what, what? No Republican on The ballot in 2026 wants to have continuation as a story. It's this one, right. Because it's even harder to combat. Look, you're in an environment right now where from a policy standpoint, what the President is doing and what Republicans in Congress have gone along with is really, really unpopular. But now you have this added dimension of a values, a much more deeper in values and meaning sort of aspect of this that is also breaking away from them. Look, if you go back to the early 2000s, through the, you know, actually the late 19, the late 90s to the mid 2000s at least, when, when I started doing polling, Republicans always had this really important advantage. And that was when you ask, you know, independent, moderate voters in the battleground states, which party more represented your values. Republicans had double digit leads on that. Right. It was a bedrock for Republicans. And so many of our progressive, so many of my progressive friends is something that we miss is that so many of Americans make sense of their lives and they organize their lives and they group themselves around values and beliefs and attitudes. Not more so than a set of five policy proposals which, my God, I mean, you know, so many Democrats think that you put out these five policy proposals that people like and they'll group themselves around it and they make so much sense of their lives through the prism of the religiosity and their beliefs and that holds them together. And part of what has been a key and baffling for me component of Trump's coalition is so many of these so called Christian voters and these Value first voters who have organized themselves around him because they see in him some shared values, at least the parroting of shared values. I think this, Nicole, undermines the president and his coalition, this position, his coalition, more so than any of the tax stuff, more so than any of the economic policies could ever do. Because quite frankly, we kind of know, we don't want to admit it, but we kind of know they weren't voting for economic policies in the first place. They were voting for something a lot more group and tribal.

Nicole Wallace (21:32)

Yeah, I mean, I also wonder if it's like Epstein where they realize that he was lying the whole time and they asked the next question. What else was he lying to me about? No one's going anywhere. We're just getting started. I too could listen to Professor Fowler the whole time ahead for us. We'll do more of that. We'll also tell you about Donald Trump's plan B. After those peace talks with Iran failed, a block blockade of Iranian ports is right now looking shaky. A key ally of the United States is pushing the Trump administration to drop the blockade altogether as Iran's so called shadow fleet of oil tankers is managing to make its way past the US Navy. Plus, six weeks into the war. And even Trump leaning voters are right now wondering why the candidate who promised an end to forever wars launched a war in the Middle east in the first place. There's some brand new reporting on that question and how Trump's political coalition is fraying fast and furious as he fails to come up with the justification or story for his war. And later in the program, the maga right is licking its wounds after their bestie on the world stage, Hungarian leader Viktor Orban, one of its heroes, frankly, is decisively swept out of power in a landslide. Many of Trump's buddies wondering if a similar fate awaits them here in our country. We have all those stories and much more. And Devlin Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.

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Cardinal Representative (24:24)

I'm proud to be partnering with my very good friend Lee Greenwood, who doesn't love his song God Bless the USA in connection with promoting the God Bless the USA Bible. I hear this is a major theme right here, but 2 Corinthians, right? 2 Corinthians, 317. That's the whole ball game. When we go in church and when I drink my little wine, which is about the only wine I drink, and have my little cracker, I guess that's a form of asking for forgiveness.

Nicole Wallace (24:54)

We're back with Angelo Cornell and Anthea. Anthea, I think Cornell does the best job explaining it to my brain. But what, in your view has kept this part of Trump's coalition from sort of seeing what's before their own eyes, that he does not share their faith system and their, and their, their moral values.

Anthea Butler (25:17)

Basically, access to power. One of the things I think that I tried to explain in my book is that morality is a shield. In other words, we used to have evangelicals who would say back in the 80s and 90s, you know, we didn't want anybody to be sexually immorality. We didn't want to see people who were divorced or whatever. And, and by the time you get to Donald Trump in the first election, they are ready for him because they're tired of losing and they want to see some things happen. And then, you know, he gets Roe versus Wade is defeated. They get what they want from the court and they have enjoyed a certain amount of prestige because of him. And now what has happened is that they found out that their, you know, quote unquote little G God is not the God that they thought they were. I mean, you have to remember back in the first, first term that he had, they basically called him King Cyrus. They had all sorts of names for him. It was very interesting to watch how they were sort of deifying him in one sort of way, not as has he's put himself Jesus, but to give him almost supernatural power in a way. And now, you know, I think that what they are finding is that he doesn't share their faith values. He doesn't share their values at all. They've had to think about this through various means and not just the war. You know, not just him projecting himself as Jesus, but also the Epstein files. I mean, sexuality is a big important part of morality for evangelicals, even though sometimes it doesn't seem like it is. So I think that what is happening now is that you're seeing an erosion of a part of his base. There are cracks there and that that basis crack. And I think that what is now happening is that a very big piece of his base which had been cap. You know, conservative Catholics are now questioning themselves as well as questioning what he's really doing.

Nicole Wallace (27:07)

Yeah, I mean, the Times writes it like this, Angelo. White Catholics who support help propel Trump to a second term remain one of the country's largest swing voting groups. Small shifts in their voting could have an outsized impact on competitive House and Senate races in Michigan, Ohio and Wisconsin, where they make up a significant portion of the electorate. And the Catholic vote could be important in parts of Arizona and South Texas where heavy concentration of Latino Catholics could influence contests. Thinking about Talarico there, if we're actually going to look at Texas, hugely consequential. To sort of build on your last point, look at this as another sort of sort of brick in the resistance to Trump to include a portion, even if it's not a majority of American Catholics.

Anthea Butler (27:51)

Yeah.

Eugene Daniels (27:51)

And I think the through line there too is that the Pope is. The Pope is American and so there is a connection to the Pope. Right. And. And the other part that is significant to your question is that he's also willing to push, you know, it is popes make pronouncements, but he is activating American Catholics and Catholics more broadly in this way. And that means that it doesn't this is not the we're not at the peak here. This is actually the beginning that ramps up. So that's where you start to then, you know, where it affects their behavior as not just individuals in society, but as political players, where they then go and vote based off of these things here. And then on the flip side, outside of the Catholic space. And this sort of ties in as well, because you have one people that could be voting against him. Right. You have another that may just decide to stay home entirely because that's what they deem as the moral thing. And, you know, it started with the Epstein stuff where you ask yourself questions and you say, okay, this is going to make me and I may not acknowledge it, but I may hear, I may think it, right. And so for a lot of these evangelicals, they've ignored a lot of this stuff. You know, they made this, they've made offsets. They haven't really press quest to press this question for themselves. You know, I've seen things circulating now that didn't break through the first time around. You know, there was Trump didn't put his hand on the Bible when he, when he swore in a second time, you know, and that didn't penetrate evangelicals. But now they're saying, wait a minute, hey, why didn't he do that? Does he not respect us? Does he not care? And so that's the same process that happened with the Epstein stuff that you're going to see play out. And that means that they may not show up. So it's, it's a, it's a double hit, I think, in the political context.

Nicole Wallace (29:20)

All right, we'll keep watching. Angelo Caracson and Thea Butler, thank you so much for starting us off today. Cornell sticks around for the hour after the break. For us, brand new reporting today on the diplomatic impasse between Iran and the US and how a defiant Iranian regime made the same offer to the Trump administration that it made before the war. Stay with us for that reporting next.

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And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

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Nicole Wallace (31:15)

Donald Trump decided to gamble that a U.S. blockade of the Strait of Hormuz would be worth all of its economic and military, diplomatic and security risk to try to put some pressure on Iran. But already there are signs of trouble. According to the Wall Street Journal, Arab officials say Saudi Arabia is pressing the United States to drop its blockade and return to the negotiating table, fearing Trump's move to close it off could lead Iran to escalate and disrupt other important shipping routes. Meanwhile, the blockade isn't even working to prevent Iran from crossing the Strait of Hormuz because again, as the Wall Street Journal is reporting, quote, Iran is using a shadow fleet of ships that employ various methods to avoid detection. Meanwhile, our colleague Jackie Alemani has some brand new reporting on negotiations over the weekend and how little the needle has budged. Seven weeks into the war, a senior administration official telling us that Iran rejected the 20 year proposal put forth by the United States to suspend all nuclear activity and countered with a three year proposal similar to what Iranian negotiators proposed in Geneva in February before Donald Trump decided to go to war with Iran in the first place. I want to bring in former Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman. She led the United States negotiating team that successfully reached an agreement on the Iran nuclear deal in 2015. Thank you so much for being here.

Wendy Sherman (32:38)

Good to Be with you. Nicole.

Anthea Butler (32:40)

What?

Nicole Wallace (32:41)

If you could just sort of tell me what worries you most, what keeps you up at night right now?

Wendy Sherman (32:47)

Oh, my goodness. The list is pretty long. But I would say. I would say two things. One, that the Trump administration doesn't realize they could get a deal, but it means actually digging in, bringing experts, putting in the time, putting in the work. It's really quite crucial. The second thing. Maybe there are three things. The second thing in terms of the blockade is exactly what the Saudis ostensibly are worried about, which is if this goes on for a while, Iran will feel it has to take some action rather than just suffering more economic harm, which was Trump's intention here, was to create an economic cost for Iran. And if Iran feels like it's getting too tough, they will attack our allies and partners. They will get the Houthis to close down the port in the Red Sea. That's what the Saudis are worried about. And the shadow fleet, as you point out, is really getting around all of this anyway. And then the third thing, and probably in some ways perhaps the most profound, is the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps is now in full control in Iran. The people I call the hard hard liners now really control everything. And as a result, at some point, they may decide that they must have a nuclear weapon to deter us and others from attacking them again. And if they decide to get a nuclear weapon, then so will several other countries. I won't name them, but you can probably guess who they are. Several other countries will want to get a nuclear weapon, and we'll be in a real bad place.

Nicole Wallace (34:39)

And what impact, if any, does Donald Trump's publicly stated threat to annihilate their civilization have on their grip on power?

Wendy Sherman (34:51)

I think it probably astonished even those that really hate the regime. This all began because the president said he would have the back of the protesters who were being slaughtered in the streets. That sort of has gone by the wayside. Everybody's forgotten about Iranians who are looking for freedom and to say, we're going to wipe out their civilization. For those protesters, they are Iranian. They believe in the many, many, many, many hundreds of years of their civilization and of their theology. And even though they hate this regime, they still love that they are Iranian and they want to preserve that. So it did not help. And of course, it said to the rest of the world that the president of the United States, even by saying it was committing a war crime.

Nicole Wallace (35:50)

What does the world see right now when it looks to America?

Wendy Sherman (35:56)

I think the world is not sure what they're supposed to do. The president has did not consult any of the allies and partners, and then he castigated them for not helping them out, but saying he didn't need to help them. So it's a little whack, a mole going on in terms of where you land, where you are. I think what it means is our European allies are trying to plot their own course. It means China is certainly plotting its own course. And it'll be very interesting to see what happens here because the president is due to go to China in May, as we all know. But if this blockade prevents China from getting the oil it needs, it may help Iran out even more. Now, I read a report today that UAE has gone to China to try to get China to put pressure on Iran to end this nightmare. But they didn't choose this war. The United States of America chose this war. And that puts us in a very strange position with the rest of the world. We've tanked the global economy. The price of oil is not decided by how much oil the United States has. We have a lot. It's determined by the world oil market. And therefore American taxpayers pay the price as well as the rest of the world.

Nicole Wallace (37:21)

It's so amazing. I mean, we sort of got to this at the end. It seems to be the only indicator. Not threatening war crimes, not alienating our allies, not suggesting ineffective or impotent measures to put off our adversaries. It's the last point you just made. It's the instability in the global markets. And its impact on the US Economy seems to be the only measure that even registers with Donald Trump. What does that mean to the world?

Wendy Sherman (37:53)

Well, many people have said that this is really about munitions markets and midterms and munitions. In terms of what's this doing to our defense capability, to the weapons we may need if there is another conflict, to the cost to our taxpayers, to the lives, the 13 soldiers who have died and what it means to everyday Americans in terms of costs to our farmers who can't get fertilizer accepted at a high price. Markets. The president certainly pays attention to what happens to the stock market and how he's doing. I'm not sure he cares about polls because as you've pointed out, they're pretty bad. And midterms, which certainly are having an impact as more and more races are seeing to sort of trend toward Democrats. And once the House is controlled by Democrats, that's going to create some accountability for President Trump. He operates in a totally different world than the last 50 years of the international rules based order. And the world is trying to figure out whether they can survive in the world in which he operates. The good news is Hungarians just decided that that kind of an autocratic approach that Viktor Orban demonstrated is not what they want to hold onto their democracy. And as your last panel discussed, that's what we all have to decide.

Nicole Wallace (39:34)

Yeah. Ambassador Wendy Sherman, thank you so much. Corona Belcher and I are going to turn to your third M the midterms on the other side of a very short break. Stay with us. Yeah. Cornell Belcher is back with me. Cornell, Wendy perfectly set up this conversation about the midterms. All of this is just a huge political loser. New York Times has a great story today about how in our country Trump has done everything wrong basically in terms of garnering support not just for himself politically, but for the war itself.

Simone Sanders Townsend (40:09)

No, I think he is making an already very difficult environment for congressional Republicans even tougher to navigate. And look, and you look inside, I think CNN's last poll had this war. 77% of independent voters disapprove of the Iran war. And a group of voters that I think if you're a Republican sitting in a swing district and relying on Trump's base and support to come back and help you out. The other numbers that I think is interesting in the polling right now is is his overall approval is going underwater with non college white voters. This is a group that he carried massively in the last election and had been key to hold on to power. And then the CNN poll, the Iran war is even underwater with non college white voters.

Nicole Wallace (41:06)

Do you think the overall approval of that group is tied directly to the war or do you think that's a cumulative.

Simone Sanders Townsend (41:12)

I think it, I don't think it's the one thing I think, I think it is a dismal tide. I think it's everything from Epstein to the gas prices to the economy. And now again, you know, and Nicole, you know this well, so much of the of sort of working class middle Americans and they make so much sense of their lives through the prism of their religiosity and their faith. And when he's behaving this way, that is, that is so abhorrent to the gospel, it does give them pause. And I'll go back to a point that I think Angela was making. Is that like, look, I don't suspect that a lot of conservative Christians are going to pull a ballot for Democrats in the midterms, but you and I both know that for midterm elections, turnout is one of the most Important things. And the turnout between an off year and on year can be anything from 10 to 12 points difference in overall turnout numbers. And I have. And you look at turnout by Democrats lately, it's been energized. And I think a lot of these places where Democrats have won in red areas, it's not simply that Republican voters are en masse moving towards Democrats. I think it's also a real hindrance to their enthusiasm to turnout.

Nicole Wallace (42:24)

So how are you feeling as you look ahead to not just the primaries, but the midterms in the fall?

Simone Sanders Townsend (42:32)

Well, Nicole, you want the truth? The truth is, I'm afraid as hell because they're looking at the same numbers that all of us are looking at, and they're only going to increase their attempts to interfere with the elections. And somehow, some way, he's already called a reelection. Rigged somehow, some way. I think when they look at these numbers and we get close to the election, I think they're gonna be looking for ways to stop the voice of the American people.

Anthea Butler (43:08)

So

Simone Sanders Townsend (43:10)

I don't take that for granted. I'm really quite afraid about what's gonna happen.

Nicole Wallace (43:15)

Yeah, I mean, you're one of the most conservative political analysts. Just why we like talking to you. Cause usually the voters exceed. Not usually, but sometimes. But I feel the way you do after watching the Orban defeat, because I think Trump's like, I'm not even as autocratic as he is. And if he can lose in a landslide and be humiliated, one, I don't know where they're going to stuff JD Vance for the next five months. And two, it's anyone's guess what they do to try to make sure the playing field is anything but even and fair. Cornell, it's a pleasure to have you for the whole hour. Thank you so much for spending it with me. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. One day after Congressman Eric Swalwell announced his resignation from Congress, a new accuser has stepped forward with allegations that he drugged and raped her in 2018. At a press conference today, the woman said she would be filing a formal police report shortly. An attorney for Swalwell has called the allegations false and fabricated. Shortly after Swalwell's announcement that he is leaving Congress, last night, Republican Congressman Tony Gonzalez announced he would also be resigning from Congress. Gonzalez has admitted to having an extramarital affair with a staffer who later died by suicide. In September, both Swalwell and Gonzalez face bipartisan calls to resign and the threat of congressional ethics probes. And according to reports, a deal to expel both members have been in the works over the last few days. We'll stay on top of these developments. Up next for us, the political downfall of a MAGA kindred spirit in Europe is setting off political alarm bells here in this country. That story is after a quick break, so don't go anywhere.

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