“The United States is responsible for the deaths of more than 100 children”

Summary

Deadline: White House – "The United States is responsible for the deaths of more than 100 children"

Date: March 11, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Key Guests: Wendy Sherman (former Deputy Secretary of State), Michael Crowley (NYT diplomatic correspondent), Steve Anderson (Ret. US Army Brigadier General), Max Rose (former Congressman & Iraq/Afghanistan veteran), Suhas Subramanyam (Congressman), Sarah Fitzpatrick (The Atlantic)

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the ongoing U.S. war with Iran under President Donald Trump, exploring the compounding humanitarian, military, political, and economic consequences—with a harsh spotlight on the U.S. military’s responsibility for the deaths of over 100 children in a single erroneous strike. Featuring experienced insights from key former officials, reporters, and lawmakers, the discussion traverses presidential decision-making, the shifting public narrative, and accountability, before pivoting in the final act to the continuing congressional investigation into Jeffrey Epstein’s network.

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Major Discussion Points and Insights

1. Current State of the War with Iran (00:00–08:42)

• Opening Context: The war is in its twelfth day, with eight U.S. service member deaths and over 1,200 fatalities across the Middle East, including at least 100 children. Gas prices have surged, and American farmers warn of broader economic fallout.
• Leadership Discord: Trump's administration has failed to articulate a clear rationale or objective for the war. Max Rose writes:
  • "There's a Bay of Pigs quality to all of it...the parallel is in the dynamic." (03:16, quoting Rose from “Vote Vets”)
• Strategic Miscalculation: A NYT report reveals Trump’s team ignored warnings about Iran’s likely response (seizing the Strait of Hormuz, hiking oil prices), resulting in conditions now faced worldwide. Iran remains empowered, exporting oil while regional rivals scramble.

2. The U.S. Strike on an Iranian School: Civilian Harm and Accountability (05:34–12:28)

• Wendy Sherman (Ambassador):
  • Over 160 children and 14 teachers killed in a U.S. airstrike from a targeting error—compounded by the gutting of the Pentagon’s civilian harm prevention office.
  • "We inadvertently killed 168 children and 14 teachers... [Pete Hegseth] gutted that office because he's all into this rah, rah, macho. Lethality is the way that we ought to conduct ourselves." (05:43)
  • The U.S. is not acknowledging or being transparent about the mistake, undermining credibility and the chance to win "hearts and minds" in Iran.
  • "For us to not be transparent about this, not to own it, is to really declare that we are not the country who we thought we were." (09:58)
  • Iran's demand for ceasefire: recognition of its nuclear rights, reparations, and no further aggression—a deal unlikely to be met.

3. Military, Technological, and Policy Failures (12:28–18:39)

• Michael Crowley:
  • The NYT confirms U.S. responsibility for the school strike; outdated intelligence was used.
  • Administration deflected blame, lacked remorse, and failed to signal procedural reforms. No evidence that targeting protocols are being reviewed or modernized.
  • Raises alarms about AI’s growing role in military targeting and the risks of scaling up automated decisions.
  • "If computers and AI are enabling a greater volume and potentially speed of targeting, this could be the kind of thing you see more of, not less of." (16:00)
• Steve Anderson (Brigadier General):
  • Transparency is a military value; mistakes should be openly addressed.
  • "These are human beings and sometimes we make mistakes...we should have complete and total transparency, honesty with the American people." (17:26)

4. Confusion Over U.S. War Objectives (18:39–20:37)

• "We've gotten 12 different answers to the question of what our objectives are in this war." (24:15, Michael Crowley)
• The rationale for the war keeps changing, with officials contradicting one another. The administration veers between talking about protecting Israel, the Iranian nuclear program, and supporting Iranian protesters—none with consistency.

5. Donald Trump’s Leadership and Legacy (25:21–34:00)

• Max Rose:
  • Trump is “scared,” having entered a war with neither a clear plan nor off-ramp.
  • "What we see here is the operational excellence of the United States military juxtaposed with the strategic incompetency of, of this administration." (25:35)
  • U.S. actions have damaged alliances and regional confidence in American leadership.
  • The administration’s approach: bypass Congress, no risk assessment, no planning for consequences; a “reckless race to war.”
  • "Decades of investment, sacrifice...just destroyed in a matter of weeks." (26:36)
• Steve Anderson:
  • Criticizes Trump for loyalty-over-competence appointments and regarding the military as his “personal militia.”
  • "These people are incompetent...when you have a president who looks at the military as his own personal militia and not America's military." (28:37)
• Wendy Sherman:
  • Trump’s instructions for oil companies to “just go through the Strait” are dangerous and will likely be ignored.
  • "It just brings to mind a little boy playing with his toy soldiers. And in this case, that little boy is the President of the United States..." (31:30)
• Respect for Veterans:
  • Trump reported as having little respect for veterans; the war will leave deep, long-term scars on service members.
  • "In the year 2055, we will see individuals walking into the VA talking about PTSD, horrific pain, God forbid, amputations, all as a consequence of these decisions." (33:34, Max Rose)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Wendy Sherman:
  • "[Trump's] drive by diplomacy didn’t get us to where we needed to be... instead, the President decided... guess we need to go to war." (07:13)
• Michael Crowley:
  • "The preliminary investigation finds officers at U.S. CENTCOM created the target coordinates for the strike using outdated data." (12:42)
• Max Rose:
  • "What we see here ultimately is the operational excellence of the United States military juxtaposed with the strategic incompetency of this administration." (25:35)
• Steve Anderson:
  • "We should have complete and total transparency, honesty with the American people. That's what they expect and that's what they should get." (17:26)
• Wendy Sherman:
  • "A little boy playing with his toy soldiers. And in this case, that little boy is the president of the United States." (31:30)
• Max Rose:
  • "Zero respect to service members and zero respect to veterans." (33:34)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 04:00–06:00: Reporting on school strike, failed messaging, and administration confusion
• 05:43 – 09:58: Wendy Sherman on civilian casualties, lack of transparency, and China's oil interests
• 12:28 – 14:08: NYT reporting on school strike, AI in targeting
• 17:26 – 18:39: Steve Anderson on military culture and owning mistakes
• 25:21 – 26:36: Max Rose on administration’s fear and strategic failures
• 30:57 – 32:50: Risks of Trump's goading oil companies through dangerous waters, lack of serious mitigation
• 33:04 – 34:00: Veterans’ treatment under Trump, dangers to military and future generations

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Segment: Epstein Congressional Investigation (36:00–45:04)

• Suhas Subramanyam (Congressman):
  • Richard Kahn, Epstein’s accountant, was grilled on hush money, offshore accounts, and high-profile Epstein associates.
  • Names of major Epstein clients surfaced: Leon Black, Les Wexner, the Rothschild family, Glenn Dubin, Ehud Barak. (40:19)
  • The DOJ never interviewed Kahn in a criminal context — oversight committee is leading the investigation.
• Sarah Fitzpatrick (The Atlantic):
  • Congressional inquiry is filling a void left by a paralyzed or politicized Justice Department.
  • Bipartisan effort signals erosion of Trump’s control over his own party on this issue.
  • Survivor advocacy and bipartisan activism are vital in pushing the investigation further.

Notable Quote:

• Sarah Fitzpatrick: "Sometimes when I talk about this story, I describe it as the women who made Congress do their jobs." (43:55)

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Conclusions & Flow

• War with Iran: The episode paints a portrait of chaos—military excellence at operational levels hamstrung by erratic, confused, and sometimes dishonest presidential and administrative leadership, with severe humanitarian and strategic consequences.
• Civilian Harm: The U.S.’s admission of responsibility in the deadly school strike is handled with deflection and opacity by the Trump administration, undermining American values and soft power.
• Public Backlash: Bipartisan and nonpartisan outrage is emerging—both over the war’s handling and accountability for the Epstein scandal—driven by survivor activism and, increasingly, by cracks in partisan lines.
• Veterans and Military: Repercussions for American service members and a lack of respect from leadership are underscored, predicting long-term social and personal costs.
• Institutional Accountability: With the normal mechanisms of justice hindered, congressional investigation—fueled by survivor and public pressure—is now the lead vehicle for accountability.

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Overall Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is urgent, at times somber, with participants relaying both anger and exhaustion at the high cost of unplanned war, strategic blunders, and failures of transparency and leadership. There is however, a noted sense of hope in the effectiveness of grassroots activism and a renewed bipartisan push for oversight and justice—especially illustrated in the context of the Epstein investigation.

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For listeners seeking a full spectrum—military, strategic, political, and moral—of America’s choices in the current war and in its justice system, this episode is a bracing, unvarnished, and essential breakdown.

Transcript

[Nicole]

Isn't home where we all want to be?

[Max Rose]

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[Nicole]

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[Max Rose]

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[Michael Crowley]

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[Nicole]

Hi everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. It's day 12 of the war with Iran. Here's where things stand. Quote, the president is scared. That is how one Democrat, former Congressman Max Rose, describes Donald Trump right now as he tries to spin a spiraling war that has led to the deaths of eight U.S. service members and more than 1200 people across the Middle east, including more than 100 children. Gas prices are right now $3.58 a gallon. That's according to AAA. And today, a leading lobbying group for American farmers is warning of a shortfall in crops and rising prices if the war continues. As for Donald Trump and his administration, they still have not settled on a single set of messages to explain why we're at war right now, what our goals are in the war, or how long they think it will take to achieve those goals and how long the war might last. Writing for the veterans group Boat Vets, Max Rose writes this quote, there's a Bay of Pigs quality to all of it. Not in a tactical sense. Our military is executing with extraordinary professionalism. The parallel is in the dynamic. A president surrounded by hawkish advisors who tell him, it'll be quick, the people will rise up, and you'll be a hero. JFK learned that lesson the hard way in 1961. Donald Trump is learning it now. There's brand new reporting in the New York Times today that reveals that Donald Trump and his team did indeed massively miscalculate how Iran would respond and react to the attack. From that report, quote. On February 18th, as President Trump weighed whether to launch military attacks on Iran, Chris Wright, the energy secretary, told an interviewer he was not concerned that the looming war might disrupt oil supplies in the Mideast and wreak havoc on energy markets. Some of Trump's other advisers shared similar views in private, dismissing warnings that the second time around Iran might wage economic warfare by closing shipping lanes carrying roughly 20% of the world's oil supply. That is precisely what we're living through. That is exactly what has happened. And what is happening? Oil prices have soared as Iran seizes control of the Strait of Hormuz. Iran today shooting at three ships near the strait. These pictures show the aftermath of a strike on a Thai ship. And there are indications that Iran is now placing mines in the strait to deter any ships from passing through it. CENTCOM said in a post on X yesterday that they struck at 16 mine laying ships. Team Trump's response to the threat to shipping has been shambolic at best. Energy Secretary Chris Wright, the one who, according to the New York Times said last month that a war with Iran would not impact oil supply, claimed yesterday in a tweet that the US Navy escorted an oil tanker through the strait, only to delete that post a little bit later. Donald Trump today threatened Iran with, quote, death, fire and fury, end quote, if the oil supply is threatened. Then today he told reporters that shipping companies should just, quote, use the strait. That's after he told Fox's Brian Kilmeade that ship should, quote, show some guts and just go through the strait. Does that sound like a president with a plan? The Wall Street Journal reports today that one unintended effect of the war is that the brutal, cruel and tyrannical Iranian regime that was sanctioned to the hilt and cut off from markets all around the world is now empowered in selling its oil. From that Wall Street Journal reporting, quote, Iran is exporting more oil through the Strait of Hormuz than before the war, showing it is in control of a strategic waterway that it has closed off to the rest of the region's oil producers. As Gulf Arab oil producers from Saudi Arabia to Iraq cut production and scramble for new routes that bypass the strait, Iran is conducting business as usual. Donald Trump facing the consequences of the war in Iran is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times diplomatic correspondent Michael Crowley is back with us. Also joining us, retired US Army Brigadier General Steve Anderson and former Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman is here as well. She led the US Negotiating team that reached an agreement on the Iran nuclear deal in 2015. Wendy, I start with you, Ambassador, or Wendy. I feel like I justice of everything.

[Wendy Sherman]

Wendy is just fine.

[Nicole]

Okay. Take me through what I missed and where things stand right now.

[Wendy Sherman]

I think you summed up a lot. I think there are a few things that people really need to be aware of. We not only have the soldiers who have died, but we have 140 at least who are injured because of an American mistake. I think old targeting data is the preliminary thought. We inadvertently killed 168 children and 14 teachers. And we did that at a time when Secretary Hegseth gutted an office that was looking at reforms for the Pentagon of how to not have civilian harm. And he gutted that office because he's all into sort of this rah, rah, macho. Lethality is the way that we ought to conduct ourselves, which is why this is the Department of War under his names, under President Trump's name. I think the other thing is indeed China is getting its oil. Iran has continued to go through the Strait and get China its oil. The President said he was going to make sure that China got its oil. He was trying to butter up China as he moves toward a summit with Xi in Beijing starting March 31. But China knows better. All that's happening is Trump is sort of going backwards. And I guess the final two things I would say, Nicole, is when this is over, whenever the president decides it's over, he doesn't just get to decide. Iran has a vote. They could continue to retaliate for what they see as harms. No one would disagree with the fact that Iran is a terrible regime, that it has done terrible things, that it has killed Americans over the years, that it's been really tough. I agree with all of that. But we had drive by diplomacy that didn't get us to where we needed to be. Instead, the President decided because Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner said this drive by negotiations, not getting what we want, guess we need to go to war. And then finally, the President of Iran today said he needs three things for a ceasefire. An acknowledgment of their need to have a nuclear fuel cycle, reparations for damages and no further aggression affirmed by the international community. I doubt that President Trump or Prime Minister Netanyahu will agree to that. So I don't see a ceasefire happening anytime soon because Iran gets to have a vote and we all will pay the price.

[Nicole]

Ambassador, let me ask you a question about your first point, the strike, and I've got the latest New York Times reporting on the strike on the school. An early investigation finds that US Was at fault if one of the objectives, and it's hard to tell based on the administration's public utterances, but if one of them is regime change, I guess one, the ayatollah son seems to be regime change in the wrong direction, perhaps someone younger, savvier and more brutal. But two, Donald Trump has even spoken directly to the Iranian people. It seems that the early messaging around the strike against the school and blaming Iran, I think Trump asked about it today, so he didn't know anything about it. That doesn't seem to support one of their stated public goals. If it really is a goal. I think we don't really know, but just talk about what it does in terms of the people and the hearts and minds of the civilian population who want a better future for themselves. If you don't transparently handle a mistaken strike on a child's school.

[Wendy Sherman]

United States of America has always held ourselves out to be a country that takes responsibility for the mistakes that we make in war. And we have made many. I grew up during the era of Vietnam and sort of My Lai was a horrifying, really, killing of an entire village, and we took responsibility for that. Colin Powell, who had fought in that war and became the secretary of state and also chairman of the Joint Chiefs, understood and discussed how important it is for us to be that transparent. And I know that Brigadier General Anderson was taught this when he became a soldier, and his people go through this. So for us to not be transparent about this, not to own it, is to really declare that we are not the country who we thought we were and are and certainly the country I want us to be. I'd say, too, Nicole, that there is no doubt that the new supreme leader is brutal. We haven't heard from him. I'm sure he's in a bunker somewhere. There are all kinds of reports about whether he was really devastatingly hurt or only minorly hurt in that first strike. I assume we will hear from him at some point, but we've heard from the president. We've heard from Ali Larajani, who many people believe is running the country at this point. And President Trump has said, we're almost done. We've done this and we've done this. We've gotten rid of their navy, their missiles, attacked their drone plants. But at the end of the day, quite frankly, Although our military has been spectacular, if that is what we have done, Iran can reconstitute that in a matter of months and years and we will have to be back into a mow the lawn strategy. Nothing about their nuclear program, nothing about the real reason that President Trump said he was doing this at the start, which is to have the back of the Iranian people. And instead what we're doing is creating a new nationalism in Iran where people feel they're being attacked. They don't like this regime, but they don't like the attacks either. And they don't like to see 168 kids and 14 teachers dead.

[Nicole]

Michael Crowley, let me read to you the Times reporting on the strike on the school, which I should say has been a flashpoint for some of Donald Trump's most prominent media backers on the right, Laura Ingraham tweeting about it days ago, Tucker Carlson posting about it as well. So there is bipartisan condemnation over the sort of the handling of questions about this. This is the Times reporting, quote, an ongoing military investigation has determined that the United States is responsible for a deadly Tomahawk missile strike on an Iranian elementary school. That's according to U.S. officials and others familiar with the preliminary findings. The February 28th strike was the result of a targeting mistake by the US Military which was conducting strikes on an adjacent Iranian base of which the school building was formerly a part. The preliminary investigation finds Officers at U.S. cENTCOM created the target coordinates for the strike using outdated data provided by Defense Intelligence Agency people briefed on the investigation said, what do we know about any reforms that have been made to double back and confirm that the targeting information, because Pete Hexa said the targeting hasn't really begun. Donald Trump has also indicated that while the war is completed also hasn't really started yet. So if Hegseth and Trump are accurate that there is more and increased bombing to come, what do we know about what may have been done to deal with the, quote, outdated targeting data?

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

Thanks, Nicole. I'm not aware of any changes to targeting procedures as a result of this. And you know, the US Government thus far, as you pointed out, is not eager to talk about this. And indeed the president in particular was initially trying to deflect blame, blame the Iranians said it could have, you know, very implausibly said it could have been any number of actors and you know, that just never held any water. And it was clear, I mean, there was a moment where Trump was essentially saying that he didn't believe the US had done it or that the US hadn't done it. Pete Hegseth was standing right there. And as a reporter pointed out to the president subsequently, you know, even Pete Hegseth wasn't willing to go that far and to support the president in what he was saying. I think Hegseth understood at that point that it was quite likely that it had been United States. So that has been the thrust of the response that we're hearing from the administration. I mean, initially kind of trying to throw smoke over this point to an ongoing investigation, change the subject. You haven't seen engagement with it. You certainly haven't seen contrition or remorse. And I'm not aware of any steps that are being taken to try to double check the data or change our procedures. And let me just add that, Nicole, I don't have a great understanding at this point of the role, for instance, that AI might be playing in American military targeting. But we know that that is where warfare is headed. And it does seem to me that to the extent that we now can feed mass amounts of data, whether or not it involves AI, you know, we have, there are thousands of targets being struck across Iran. Of course, that involves huge amounts of data. Of course, a lot of that is computerized. And increasingly, as computers are handling targeting data and potentially, potentially AI will begin handling targeting, you have to ask yourself whether the likelihood of these sorts of horrible tragedies will increase. And specifically, I'll say as a last point, we know that the Pentagon essentially kicked Anthropic out of its system and has threatened to impose punishments on the company because Anthropic would not approve autonomous lethal weapons that were run with its software. So I'm getting a little ahead of the specific story. I understand. But I want to point out that I think we need to be concerned that if computers and AI are enabling a much greater volume of targeting and possibly speed of targeting, this could be the kind of thing you see more of, not less of.

[Nicole]

Super important point. General Anderson, I want to ask you to take me through what it means for the military to have an error in targeting that results in a strike on a girls school.

[Steve Anderson]

Well, thank you, Nicole. What it means to the military is what Ambassador Sherman said originally, which is transparency. I mean, mistakes happen. These are human beings and sometimes we make mistakes. And I think that the Trump administration needs to come clean and just say, look, we screwed up, but these things happen. We think back as Ambassador Sherman related to My Lai. I remember that very, very well. And although there was some initial cover up that was ongoing initially, eventually became a Great teaching point for our military. It made us stronger, made us better. By showing that there is a problem internally within the command and control and that we were reporting falsely things like body counts and this kind of thing. We learned a lot from My Lai. I would submit to you that the Americans would also learn from the mistake that was made by bombing this school and that we should have complete and total transparency, honesty with the American people. That's what they expect and that's what they should get.

[Nicole]

Michael Crowley, just quickly, where is this heading in terms of the rationale being offered in closed door briefings on the Hill? Last time you were here, Rubio had said we were there because Israel was going to strike. I talked to Senator Chris Murphy at this time yesterday, who was listening to Ted Cruz do a press interview, who was talking about nuclear program, and he said that is not among the reasons being offered. What is the official line today while we have you about why we went to war 12 days ago?

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

Nicole, I don't know what to say in response to that. I mean, there's the Secretary of State, there's the President, there's the Secretary of Defense. It changes from day to day. I think Ambassador Sherman made a great point, which was that this all began with President Trump talking in January about the Iranian protests and coming to the rescue of the Iranian people who wanted to overthrow their regime. And that talking point is completely gone. I did see Senator Murphy's tweets. You know, I don't see how the administration can say that the nuclear program is not a main objective. It's been, you know, apart from the protests and indeed beyond and above the protests, it has been their number one complaint with the Iranians this entire time and the issue on which they have been most adamant. So I just think that they seem to be changing their message day by day. And you have to suspect that it is in response to what has been happening to events in the day prior to the articulation of what they say the goals are. Because they just keep changing and they seem to change in response to events on the ground and that should not be the case.

[Nicole]

They also change from one official to the other. And I think it was your colleague Sean McCree who said that Higsa standing behind Trump and the two of them standing shoulder to shoulder didn't have the same answer on the strike of the girls school in Iran. It is, it is one of the most disorienting aspects to covering this. And so we appreciate you, Michael Crowley, for pulling the curtain back on that and starting us off today. I'm going to ask General Anderson and Ambassador Sherman to stay with me. When we come back, we'll be joined by former Congressman Max Rose on what he describes as Donald Trump's fear and clear signs that that's what he's witnessing and the reason he and his the White House are in full panic mode, constantly doing what Michael Crowley is describing, shifting the public narrative about the war, plus from Joe Rogan to NFL players to an American archbishop. We'll talk about the growing public backlash to the war and the propaganda machine designed to prop it up. And later in the broadcast to the story that isn't going away anytime soon. Another close contact to Jeffrey Epstein testified to Card Congress today as another statue shows up around Capitol Hill spotlighting a relationship between Donald J. Trump and the convicted dead sex offender, likening it to the tragic love story of Jack and Rose in the Titanic. The very latest into that investigation and much more when Devin White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Michael Crowley]

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[Nicole]

Isn't home where we all want to be?

[Max Rose]

Reba here for realtor.com the Pro's number one most trusted app, Finding a home is like dating. You're searching for the one with over 500,000 new listings every month. You can find the one today.

[Nicole]

Download the realtor.com app cause you're nearly home.

[Max Rose]

Make it real with realtor.com Pro's number

[Michael Crowley]

one, most trusted app based on August 2025 proprietary survey. Okay, 500,000 new listings every month based on average new for sale and rental listings. July 2024 to June 2025. When you sit in the Situation Room before the president decides to send us men and women into harm's way in

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

war, you have to answer two questions.

[Michael Crowley]

The first question is, what are our objectives?

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

What are we trying to achieve?

[Michael Crowley]

And can we align our means to those ends? We've gotten 12 different answers to the question of what our objectives are in this war.

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

And so we're sitting here today, many days into war, and we can't answer the question because the Trump administration can't answer the question.

[Michael Crowley]

Second question you ask in the Situation Room is, what is our enemy going to do in response to our attack?

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

And then you game out how you counteract it.

[Michael Crowley]

And one of the things that was

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

very obvious from the outset here is that Iran would threaten the Straits of

[Michael Crowley]

Hormuz, shutting down energy supply to the

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

world, trying to drive up gas prices

[Michael Crowley]

for ordinary Americans and energy prices for people around the world.

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

And yet here, nearly two weeks into

[Michael Crowley]

the war, we seem befuddled by the fact that they have done that, and we have no answers for how to respond to it. So from my perspective, part of the reason that you have Caroline Levitt playing word games about unconditional surrender, meaning kind of the opposite of what unconditional surrender actually means, is because we backed ourselves into a corner.

[Nicole]

I want to bring in former Democratic Congressman Max Rose. He's a veteran who served in Afghanistan, is now a senior advisor for Vote Vets. General Anderson and Ambassador Sherman are still here. You pointed out that Trump seemed scared. Explain.

[Max Rose]

I'd be scared, too. You know, his administration was motivated and inspired by this perceived success in Venezuela, that they proceeded to engage in a full scale war where they had no clear justification, no clear sense for how they will actually engage the war and push back against the inevitable escalations that our enemy would undertake. And no clear plan for how the war will end. What is the off ramp? And so what we see here ultimately is the operational excellence of the United States military juxtaposed with the strategic incompetency of, of this administration and its leadership.

[Nicole]

The President addressed the country on Tuesday. The strikes happened late Friday. And the one economic indicator he brags about are gas prices. Do you think they're unaware of the impact on the global oil supply, or is that misdirection and propaganda?

[Max Rose]

It's impossible to not be aware of the impact that this will have on supply and price. I don't think that they are necessarily also considering the fact that this is putting money in Russia's pocket, I don't think that they are necessarily thinking about the ways in which this will set us back in the region. The very reason why countries in the Middle east wanted a United States base in the first place was because they believed it would make them safer, more secure. That very transaction has now been flipped on its head. And decades of investment, decades of soldiers, time and energy and commitment and sacrifice were committed to building what this administration has just destroyed in a matter of weeks. You know, for years, what they said is that the way that the Democrats dealt with Iran was rooted in cowardice. They just had the guts to go all the way. Like they've gone all the way. Things would be fine. And what we've seen here instead is a reckless race to war where they ignored Congress, ignored any process, ignored any risk assessment, ignored any planning for second and third order effects and consequences, and inevitable disaster has ensued. That is the only thing that should be of no surprise to anyone here.

[Nicole]

General Anderson, just pick up on that. We are, if we are to believe Marco Rubio, we are there because Israel was going to strike anyway. Not even a collaborative decision on timing, but in response and reaction to, I guess, the actions Iran would take in response to Israel. So Israel was going to act, Iran was going to respond. And we're the third party at that dance. But what about our other allies in the region? What is your sense of the strain or impact of the war on those relationships?

[Steve Anderson]

Well, Nicole, first of all, I absolutely agree with every word that former Representative Max Rose just said and has written. He's spot on target. But what we are seeing here, and I think what our allies in the region are seeing, is what happens when the people in key leadership positions are picked for loyalty and not competence. Because these people are incompetent. They don't know what they're doing. With the possible exception of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Dan Kaine, every single person involved in this is totally incompetent. The second thing I would point out is this is also what happens when diplomacy is given over to a couple of real estate tycoons, Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner. They don't know what they're doing. We tore up any agreements that we had with Iraq previously, and they're not executing any kind of diplomacy. And I'm sure Ambassador Sherman is as frustrated about this as I am. And the third thing I'd Say, is this also seen? This is what we're seeing is what happens when you have a president who looks at the military as his own personal militia and not America's military. He knows that if he tells these folks to jump, they're going to say, how high? And he's taking advantage of that. And as Max Rose said, you know, said earlier, I mean, I'm very, very proud as he is of the performance in the military, but it's at the behest of a president who don't know, doesn't know what he's doing and is taking advantage of their loyalties.

[Nicole]

Ambassador Sherman, let me just ask you about the public statements Donald Trump has made about the Strait of Hormuz today. He said, just do it, go through it. I think he said something to the effect of man up or something like that yesterday. What are the risks? I mean, companies have been very, very obedient. Tim Cook was there in a tuxedo with the gold bar the day after Alex Preddy was killed. I mean, we haven't seen corporations refuse many of his public demands. And he's now telling them to, quote, just do it, go through the Strait of Hormuz. Will oil companies obey?

[Wendy Sherman]

Don't think so. They've seen, as you noted at the beginning of this, the Thai ship that was hit by the Iranians today. We don't know the extent to which Iran has tried to mine the Strait of Hormuz. They're certainly capable of doing so. And our minesweepers, our four minesweepers have just been, Are in the process of being decommissioned because they're quite old. We'd have to go to France or to Great Britain to remove those mines. And it takes months to do that. You can lay them pretty quickly, but you can't remove them very easily. So, no, I don't think they will. I know that the President's trying to have the dfc, our finance corporation, put together a way to ensure ships, even talked about having American naval vessels help them through the Strait. I don't think anybody's going to take that risk, and I don't think anybody thinks that the insurance is good enough for them to take those risks. You know that. I think the points that both Max Rose and Steve Anderson have made are critical because this is an administration that has decided that we're not going to have military as a last resort. It's going to be the first resort, whether that's the special forces in Venezuela or our extraordinary military, our air force, our air assets, our tremendous capabilities in this instance, that's what we're going to do. And I think it just brings to mind a little boy playing with his toy soldiers. And in this case, that little boy is the president of the United States who wasn't willing to go to war for this country. And his sons haven't been willing to go to war for this country. His daughters haven't been able to go to war for this country. And yet here we are at war.

[Nicole]

He also does not have a history of publicly embracing those who do. The Atlantic reported that he described men and women who die in service of this country as losers and suckers.

[Max Rose]

Well, look, they started this administration by firing a bunch of veterans during Doge. Feels like ancient history. Now 50% of our federal workforce are veterans and they showed them absolutely no respect. They've continued on an absolute rampage of gutting the va and now with this reckless war that we have rushed into, just to put this into perspective, close to 200 service members seriously injured only

[Steve Anderson]

in a matter of weeks.

[Max Rose]

And that's what they're willing to tell us to report on. In the year 2055, we will see individuals walking into the VA talking about PTSD, horrific pain, God forbid, amputations, all as a consequence of these decisions. That represents zero respect to service members and zero respect to veterans.

[Nicole]

General Steve Anderson, Ambassador Wendy Sherman and Max Rose, thank you very much for this conversation today. To be continued. Will we come back? Switching gears, Jeffrey Epstein's longtime accountant, the man who oversaw his money, his private island renovations, now his estate, testifying before Congress today, one of the lawmakers he met with will join us next on what Epstein's money man says he knew and what he says he didn't know about the decades long crimes his boss allegedly engaged in. That's nuts.

[Michael Crowley]

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[Nicole]

Jeffrey Epstein's accountant and trusted confidant Richard Kahn testified today on Capitol Hill for a closed door deposition before the House Oversight Committee. Since Jeffrey Epstein's death, Kahn alongside attorney Darren Indyke have served as the co executors of Epstein's estate, which has given them broad authority over Jeffrey Epstein's remaining wealth, his estate records and documentation, along with authority over negotiations with victims seeking compensation. An attorney for the victims has likened the arrangement to a fox guarding the henhouse. In a statement provided to Ms. NOW's Lisa Rubin, lawyers for Kahn and Indyke deny any wrongdoing. Quote, Both Mr. Indyke and Mr. Kahn reject as categorically false the suggestion that they knowingly facilitated or assisted Mr. Epstein in his sexual abuse or trafficking of women or that they were aware of that abuse while they provided professional services for him. However, Khan previously testified in a deposition that cash was kept in a safe in his office intended to pay Epstein's female associates, who sources told the New York Times Kahn had described as being Epstein's, quote, assistants. I want to bring in a member of that House Oversight Committee who was at today's hearing, Democratic Congressman Suhas Subramayamyam of Virginia. Also joining us, staff writer for the Atlantic, Sarah Fitzpatrick, who has written about the congressional push to investigate and release the Epstein files. Congressman, I start with you. Just tell me what we learn today. I guess in the movies the money people always connect the dots in ways that few others inside a criminal organization can. Did we learn anything from the money guy?

[Suhas Subramanyam]

Yeah, you know, survivors have told us to follow the money and that's certainly why we had Richard Kahn in today. And it was very illuminating. We asked him a lot of questions about hush money paid to survivors, to women, and he was very shaky in his answers. He said, oh, I was just the accountant. I just paid the bills And I didn't know anything about what's going on. That's hard to believe, but certainly he was giving us a pretty good overview of the infrastructure surrounding Jeffrey Epstein. The accountants, the lawyers, and all of the accounts and offshore accounts. Everything you need to cover up for a billionaire and make sure that he can get away with crimes and get away with things that 99.9% of Americans can't.

[Nicole]

I mean, as you said, he was a billionaire, sort of ran around with fancy people. What did the accountant think the cash was for?

[Suhas Subramanyam]

He just thought that it was for paying employees and paying people. He didn't see that as a regular. He didn't see gifts to women as irregular either. He thought this was just a normal course of business. Again, it's very hard to believe. And he says that he didn't know of any wrongdoing. And if he'd known of any wrongdoing, he would have quit. But we know for a fact that even when he found out about convictions against Jeffrey Epstein, arrests of Jeffrey Epstein twice, in 2008 and 2019, he still continued working for him. He still continues to represent the estate and have the estate as his client. And so he clearly has no problem working for Jeffrey Epstein, even when he

[Nicole]

knows the crimes, were they involved? I mean, paying for flights. And you think about what the victims have filled in for us in terms of how many people were in and out of the mansion or the office spaces. Did they just think that there weren't qualified applicants for the jobs that were men or that were of age or like, what was their sort of degree of awareness or, or denial about all that is public now?

[Suhas Subramanyam]

He just thinks that any woman, any girl around Jeffrey Epstein was just an assistant and that he considered them all assistants and that he had no problem. He said that one of them should have come to him to tell him about abuse. But why would they trust him?

[Steve Anderson]

Right.

[Suhas Subramanyam]

He's working as a right hand man, the accountant for Jeffrey Epstein. And so the reality is he didn't want to know at best, or he did know and he's lying to us. It's one of the two things.

[Nicole]

Did he provide any leads to additional people that the committee will subpoena?

[Suhas Subramanyam]

Absolutely. He provided names of five people, five major clients of Jeffrey Epstein. People like Leon Black and Les Wexner, the Rothschild family, Glenn Dubin. And so he provided some of those names. And he also mentioned Ehud Barhat Barakht, the former Israeli prime minister. Remember, Virginia Giuffre had mentioned that a former Israeli prime minister had sexually assaulted her very brutally. And she was afraid of even naming him after naming others. And so that's a person of interest to me as well. And then he did mention that, you know, one of the accusers who accused Donald Trump as well did get a settlement from the Epstein estate. And so we're going to continue to follow some of those leads as well.

[Nicole]

Oversight committee, I believe you were the first to subpoena the estate. Right. The DOJ has never subpoenaed the upstate estate.

[Suhas Subramanyam]

The DOJ had never even talked to Richard Kahn, the accountant. He's only been interviewed in a civil setting, not in a criminal setting. I think that's outlandish. It's outrageous and it's why people are angry about this case.

[Nicole]

Well, it's why the oversight work is so important to the investigation. Congressman, thank you so much for joining us to talk about today. We'll bring Sarah in on the other side of a very short break. Don't go anywhere. We're back with the Atlantic, Sarah Fitzpatrick. Sarah, the Trump Justice Department seems totally comfortable defying Trump's own base of supporters who cared a lot about this issue, defying his high profile manosphere podcaster supporters who cared a lot about this issue. But the bipartisan matchup of Massie and Khanna at oversight seems to stay one step ahead of the Trump doj. Just talk about where the subpoena for Pam Bondi stands and how the committee continues to sort of out investigate doj.

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

Absolutely, Nicole. It's such a great point. I was thinking as you were talking to the congressman before, how outrageous it is that we have members of Congress essentially doing the job of the Justice Department today would have been, you know, this is an investigative interview. These are people who are not so many of them are lawyers, but they are not professional FBI agents or Justice Department prosecutors. And I think that speaks to just the dire, the dire position that our justice system is in and what has been required. I think the bipartisan nature of it speaks to what's happening behind the scenes, which is that Donald Trump has very much lost the support not just of his base for whom this was a real trust in government issue, but of Republican members of Congress, which are so central to his power and his ability to do anything, you know, his kind of omnipresent power that has been on display for so long. But there are cracks in that behind the scene. And so I think what you see in this bipartisan nature is Republicans who are willing to openly defy the president because they recognize that it is a winning political issue to be seen as trustworthy, to be seen as interested in crimes that have been committed. And unfortunately, that is rare. But we see out. You know, I've seen some recent polling that suggests this is a winning issue for both Republicans and Democrats. And I think both parties are paying very close attention.

[Nicole]

I mean, the survivors, I feel like, deserve the other half of the credit. They are not reflexively partisan. A lot of them include Trump supporters, self described Trump supporters. When they've gone to Washington, they seem to have spent as much time behind closed doors with Republicans and Republican staffers as Democrats. Just talk about their role, public and private, in keeping this issue moving forward and alive.

[Sarah Fitzpatrick]

Absolutely. I think you cannot. This is, sometimes when I talk about this story, I describe it as the women who made Congress do their jobs. And that's exactly what happened in this scenario. You had a group of women that for the first time recognized that there needed to be a very clear call to action and that it needed to be bipartisan and that it needed to be constant. And this, you had a really careful organization of women that were thinking strategically about which members of Congress how to, in what order to go. Some of them were even enlisting their own mothers who lived in certain districts to call in and kind of lobby for this. And I think it was a learning experience for these women. But more importantly for these members of Congress, they recognized that this was an important issue, that this was something that wasn't just a fringe issue. And, and these women, I think, deserve a lot of credit and bravery for demanding that they would not be ignored. And that is the job of Congress. The job of Congress is to listen to constituents. And, you know, I think this is the one bright spot of this administration and maybe in previous administrations, where you see the public actually having an impact on the law.

[Nicole]

It's such a good point. This is like, this is, this is sort of restoring our faith in how the process can work. When constituents without obvious partisan associations go to Congress, they walk the walk, they walk the steps, they show up in hearings, they show up in offices of Democrats, they show up in offices of Republicans and they win people over. And you actually see lawmakers saying, I had this view. I met with the survivors, now I have this view. So good to talk to you about this. We love your reporting on the story. Please come back. Sarah Fitzpatrick of the Atlantic, thank you for joining us today. After the break, some in the GOP might be speaking sounding the political alarms after Democrats flipped another Republican seat in an election yesterday. We'll tell you about that Next. In what should be a flashing red warning sign for Republicans politically, Democrats delivered a stunning and unexpected victory in New Hampshire's state legislative special election last night. Democratic candidate Bobby Bauman flipped the seat in a district that Donald Trump won by nine points in 2024. She had previously lost her campaigns for that seat in 2024 and 2022 by double digit margins, but this is starting to look like a pattern for Democrats. The Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee president pointed out that the win was actually just the latest in a string of 28 Democratic state legislative flips since Donald Trump's election. DNC Chair Ken Martin issued this warning, quote, no Republican seat is safe from now until November. Democrats are keeping our foot on the gas and organizing and competing everywhere. We'll stay on top of all those races, big and small, after a break. The public backlash to the war in Iran coming from many different places across our society. We'll get to that next when Deadline White House continues after a quick break.

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