“The U.S. is falling behind on the world stage”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The U.S. is falling behind on the world stage"

Deadline: White House - May 14, 2026
Host: Ayman Mohyeldin (in for Nicolle Wallace)
Guests: John Hudson (Washington Post), Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, Rick Stengel, Tom Nichols, Miles Taylor, Alex Wagner

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the alarming conclusion by U.S. intelligence agencies that the United States is losing ground on the global stage, particularly in the wake of Donald Trump’s war with Iran. Drawing from exclusive Washington Post reporting, the panel discusses the unintended geopolitical, military, and economic consequences of the conflict—including China’s increasing influence, strained U.S. alliances, depleting military resources, and troubling domestic trends stemming from the Trump administration. The episode also examines the administration’s controversial counterterrorism strategy and discusses recent embarrassing headlines about FBI Director Kash Patel’s conduct.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. U.S. Global Standing Undermined by Iran War

• Intelligence Community Conclusions:

  • U.S. Intelligence reports delivered to the Pentagon assess that the war with Iran has empowered adversaries and diminished U.S. influence (01:10).
  • China is filling the vacuum: selling weapons to U.S. Gulf allies, assisting with energy needs, using the crisis to position the U.S. as a rogue actor.
  • U.S. and Arab allies are rapidly burning through munitions needed for future crises, particularly any confrontation over Taiwan.

  “What this lays bare is the many geopolitical consequences of this conflict... Arab allies... have been buying weapons from China since the start of the war.”
  — John Hudson ([03:39])

• Energy Crisis & Chinese Resilience:

  • Iran closes the Strait of Hormuz, triggering a global energy crunch.
  • China, despite being dependent on energy imports, relies on large reserves and green tech to weather the storm.

  “China has been incredibly resilient as a result of its large oil reserves and the fact of its green technology which powers much of its economy.”
  — John Hudson ([05:33])

2. Failure of Strategic Planning & Quagmire Risks

• Anticipated, Not Surprising:

  • The intelligence community reportedly anticipated Iranian retaliation, including closing Hormuz and attacking Gulf states.
  • Past presidents avoided direct war with Iran due to risks of escalation and U.S. overextension.

  “These were absolutely anticipated by the intelligence community... It was known the Strait of Hormuz was likely something that Iran would try to shut down.”
  — John Hudson ([06:10])

• Disconnect Between Intelligence and Policy:

  • Joint Staff war planning involves complex “red team” simulations, but military advice and scenario-planning seem sidelined.

  “There’s just a disconnect between what we are doing versus what we know and the intelligence capabilities."
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling ([07:23])

  • U.S. is at risk of becoming bogged down, with military objectives at odds with unclear political end-goals.

3. Chinese (and Russian) Leverage on the World Stage

• China’s Strategic Patience:

  • Beijing views the U.S. as in “terminal decline." China passively benefits from U.S. mistakes—especially as the U.S. expends resources.

  “Xi Jinping and the whole China leadership look at the US as being a nation in decline, in terminal decline. Trump's role is that he's accelerating that.”
  — Rick Stengel ([09:27])

• Russian and Chinese Support For Iran:

  • Both are reported to have shared intelligence with Iran about U.S. bases, amplifying the effectiveness of Iranian attacks.

4. U.S. Military Readiness Compromised

• Draining Munitions Inventories:

  • The Iran conflict is depleting U.S. stocks of precision weapons critical for potential flashpoints elsewhere, especially in Asia.
  • Pentagon war planning always measures “risk” across global theaters—a point not lost on China or potential adversaries.

  “15,000 kinetic strikes means that there were 15,000 precision missiles launched. That’s a big part of the inventory.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling ([13:27])

• Vulnerabilities Exposed:

  • China and Russia exploit gaps, selling arms where the U.S. has left allies unsupported.

5. The Trump Administration’s Reaction to Scrutiny

• Attacks on the Press:

  • President Trump accuses journalists of “virtual treason” in response to critical reporting, mirroring historic wartime censorship but with his own misinformation twist.

  “The Trump administration is...the font of myths and disinformation. They are giving false reporting about the war.”
  — Rick Stengel ([15:13])

• Lack of Consistent Policy:

  • Trump wants out of the Iran war but fears looking weak; “appetite for resuming hostilities...changes by the day...or the hour.”

  “Trump is looking for a way out. This is a hugely unpopular conflict. It has really split up his MAGA base.”
  — John Hudson ([16:22])

6. The Counterterrorism Strategy: Politicized and Incompetent

• Strategy Lacks Substance, Reads Like a Grievance List:

  • Drafted by Sebastian Gorka, the new counterterrorism document redefines almost all political opponents and left-wing activity as terrorism.
  • Prioritizes "left-wing extremists, pro-transgender activists, Antifa" over real transnational threats.

  “It’s like they took a bunch of words from terrorism and counterterrorism documents and threw them together like a bag of refrigerator magnets...This isn’t a strategy, it’s a screed.”
  — Tom Nichols ([21:21])

• Weaponizing Government Against Political Enemies:

  • Miles Taylor (ex-DHS Chief of Staff): Strategy reorients federal focus to target the President’s opponents—“payback squad" in the FBI now a reality.

  “This is the most sweeping re-architecture of the US Federal government to go after political enemies that we have ever seen.”
  — Miles Taylor ([22:11])

7. Embarrassments and Ethical Lapses in the Administration

• FBI Director Kash Patel’s Conduct:

  • Patel took a VIP snorkeling trip at Pearl Harbor, a memorial and military cemetery, while on official business—described as sacrilege by panelists.

  “To have someone doing a snorkel trip around the Arizona would sort of be like...having a 5k race through a cemetery. It's just ridiculous, and it's sacrilege.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling ([32:36])

• General Atmosphere of Unprofessionalism:

  • Patel regularly in headlines for inappropriate use of resources; concerns raised about serious threats being neglected as the administration focuses on political vendettas.

  “This person is the head of the FBI at a time when...very real threats to the homeland...Who has their hand on the captain's wheel?”
  — Alex Wagner ([34:39])

8. The Vanity Ballroom and Public Outrage

• Billion-Dollar Ballroom Project:

  • The Trump administration is pushing for taxpayer funding of a White House ballroom—a move widely unpopular even among Republican legislators.

  “This is the kind of news that...has you calling your psychiatrist and asking for a refill on Xanax...”
  — Tom Nichols ([39:26])

• Political Optics:

  • As gas prices climb and ordinary Americans face financial struggles, images of construction on Trump’s ballroom complicate the GOP’s electoral prospects.

  “There’s almost nothing that Democratic operatives need to do other than just news boost these stories.”
  — Miles Taylor ([41:25])

9. Elite Influence and Legal Controversy

• Justice for Sale?
  • The Justice Department considers dropping charges against Indian billionaire Gautam Adani after hiring Trump’s lawyer and pledging investment—a story emblematic of perceived rule-bending for the wealthy and powerful.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Chinese Strategy:

  “Whatever the military is saying, when your enemy is falling, don’t get in his way. That is their attitude.”
  — Rick Stengel ([09:42])

• On Internal U.S. Policy Drift:

  “We operate based on the intelligence we receive. So if you’re making a willy-nilly suggestion and just saying using ad hoc-ism...you're gonna get in trouble. That's what we're seeing right now.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling ([07:23])

• On the Counterterrorism Strategy:

  “It’s meant to basically take everybody that Donald Trump doesn't like, anybody who opposes Donald Trump’s administration, and throw them all into a big basket that says left-wing terrorists that we can now go after.”
  — Tom Nichols ([25:18])

• On FBI Mismanagement:

  “Cash Patel is acting like this is rich kids’ spring break. That’s not what this is.”
  — Miles Taylor ([36:19])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• U.S. Intelligence Report & Pentagon Reaction: [03:39]
• Anticipated Consequences, Not Surprises: [06:10]
• Military/Political Disconnect: [07:23]
• China’s Strategic Calculation: [09:27]
• Trump on China/Iran Dynamics: [10:44]
• Intelligence Sharing with Iran: [11:26]
• Impact on Military Readiness: [12:41]
• Trump Administration vs. the Press: [15:13]
• Ceasefire, Appetite for War: [16:22]
• Politicized Counterterrorism Strategy: [20:52]
• Labelling Political Opponents as Terrorists: [25:18]
• Kash Patel at Pearl Harbor: [32:36]
• Fallout from the White House Ballroom Project: [39:26]

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Summary Takeaway

This episode offers an incisive and urgent look at the cascading consequences of the Trump administration’s foreign and domestic maneuvers. The U.S. not only faces new dangers abroad—most pressingly the rise of China and a resurgent Iran—but also alarming shifts at home as the administration turns federal power toward repressing opponents and rewarding loyalists.

Panelists outline how these trends undermine U.S. credibility and readiness, alienate allies, and embolden adversaries. The episode is peppered with scathing analysis and sharp, sometimes darkly humorous, observations about the serious risks posed by a government adrift and increasingly focused on grievance, spectacle, and vanity.

For listeners: This is an essential episode for anyone who wants to understand how short-term political maneuvering can inflict long-term damage on America’s global standing and the health of its democracy.

Transcript

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[Chris Hayes]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? The next episode of our special miniseries the AI Endgame, I'm speaking with author and professor Ethan Mollick about how quickly AI expansion is happening.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

It's gone from AI as productivity booster alone, which is you use it and you get answers and you do a bit better in your job to agentic work where it starts to actually do economically valuable tasks. And now we've got to figure how

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

people relate to that.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this happening? The AI End Game, a special miniseries. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Hey there everyone. It is four o'clock in New York. I'm Ayman Mohiuddin in for Nicole Wallace today. Well, Donald Trump's war of choice with Iran means that the United States is falling behind on the world stage. That is the alarming conclusion by US Intelligence delivered to the highest levels at the Pentagon as Donald Trump makes a state visit to China. A brand new report from the Washington Post reveals that the Chinese government is using the war with Iran to undermine the United States, stepping in where the United States has been falling short. Two officials who have read a report by U.S. intelligence tell the Washington Post that, quote, since the U.S. and Israel initiated that war with Iran on February 28th, China has sold weapons to Persian Gulf allies of the US as they struggle to defend their military bases and oil infrastructure from Iranian missile and drone attacks. Beijing has also assisted countries around the world to meet their energy needs after the US Israeli attacks prompted Iran to close the Strait of Hormuz. Now the report also notes that China is using the war Trump started to portray the United States as a rogue nation. More from the Post reporting. The report notes that Beijing has incorporated popular criticisms of the war into its public messaging, labeling the conflict. Now, in response to this report, a White House spokesperson told the Washington Post that the United States has, quote, decimated the Iranian regime's military capabilities in 38 short days and is now strangling what is left of their economy with one of the most successful naval blockades in history. But as we reported on this program just yesterday, US Intelligence has concluded that Iran's military capabilities remain significant. And an estimate from the CIA obtained by the Washington Post suggests that Iran can survive a blockade for at least three to four months, even as the oil supply crisis causes economic pain in the United States and around the world. Donald Trump's war with Iran dealing a blow to America standing in the world is where we begin today with Washington Post reporter John Hudson. He is bylined on that reporting we just read from. And joining us here on set, military analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe, plus former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs during the Obama administration. Political analyst Rick Stengel is with us as well. Gentlemen, it's great to have all of you with us. John, let me start with you. This is your reporting. What do we know about the reaction inside the Pentagon to this intelligence report?

[John Hudson]

Yeah, Eamonn. Well, this was created by the intelligence arm that reports to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. And what's so stunning about it is that we, of course, know about the tragic deaths and casualties of U.S. services members, the deaths of civilians in this war and the cost of the pump. But what this lays bare is the many geopolitical consequences of this conflict. And let me just go over some of the top lines that are included in this report on munitions. Obviously, the United States has expended huge numbers of missiles, bombs and interceptors in this conflict, weapons that would be theoretically quite important for a future war in China should Taiwan be contested. The United States isn't the only country expending a lot of munitions. So are our Arab allies. Those Arab allies, according to this report, have been buying weapons from China since the start of the war. And this isn't the only way that they are scrambling to react to this conflict. It's created an energy crunch across the globe, impacting a lot of US Allies and partners. China has tried to be there for those countries. In the short term, it has offered fuel for air fuel in some cases where they've run out of. And in the long term, it has offered its green technology that would help these countries wean themselves off American oil and other fossil fuel resources. So there are a number of ways that this conflict is maybe different than a lot of people had imagined it. One last point that I'll make is that President Trump has mentioned repeatedly that China is more reliant on the Strait of Hormuz than the United States is. The report makes clear that China has been incredibly resilient as a result of its large oil reserves and the fact of its green technology which powers much of its economy.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah, John, so much to unpack there. And I'm wondering, I guess the logical question that first comes to my mind is was this a set of actions that could have been anticipated or are these outcomes that were not planned for meaning? You know, for example, we've heard President Trump say that nobody anticipated that Iran would attack the Gulf countries, the Arab, Arab, Gulf countries. He, you know, has gone on to say they didn't think that Iran would close the Strait of Hormuz. So the question now is, were these actually anticipated by the intelligence community or has this also been a surprise to them?

[John Hudson]

These were absolutely anticipated by the intelligence community. This is why so many American presidents, when they have contemplated how to deal with Iran's nuclear program, have not made the choice that President Trump made in pursuing the decapitation of the regime and the all out war against the regime. It was known that the Strait of Hormuz was likely something that Iran would try to shut down. And it was known that for a long time, including by the Trump administration. If you look at its own national security strategy, that strategically, the United States getting bogged down in wars in the Middle east is not something that is advantageous to a global superpower like the United States, which has so many equities and interests across the globe and has so many nets negative experiences with wars in the Middle east that had so many unintended consequences.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

So, General, the question that I have for you, and then we just heard John say there the question of whether or not we are bogged down, are we in that phase of having uncertain outcome right now with the war in Iran, Are we in a quagmire, even if it's not in the kind of worst sense of the word militarily, but are we in a quagmire between the military objectives and a political outcome?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

I think we're in a diverse world between the military and the political outcome. And listening to John just now, every point that he made is important. Two of the things he talked about, the intelligence arm of the Joint Staff, I was just shaking my head. Having spent two years on the Joint Staff as a war planner, I know that there's a J2 element that is their intelligence staff officer who works through all these things. They have the Defense Intelligence Agency that reports directly to the chairman to feed intelligence to him. There are other intelligence agencies that I won't go into that all provide information and intelligence to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. So he can take all of those plans, put them together, and they do something called red teaming. And they say, how you know, what is the enemy going to do? How do we react to it? What's the action, reaction, counteraction? It is a planning and an execution process. Amen. That I don't think most Americans understand, but it's in detail. So when the Chairman goes before the President or the Secretary of Defense or the Secretary of State and says, here are the things you might want to consider, I would suggest they ought to consider those things, but it doesn't appear that that's happening right now. To your question about are we in a quagmire, I think there's just, you know, there's just a disconnect between what we are doing versus what we know and the intelligence capabilities. The US Military uses something called intel based operation. We operate based on the intelligence we receive. So if you're making a willy nilly suggestion and just saying using ad hoc ism to plan your next move, move, you're gonna get in trouble. That's what we're seeing right now.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

So all of this comes, Rick, as the President is in China for this critical meeting with Xi and so President Xi. And so it really also raises the question as to how different American administrations would be handling this precise moment. Being on the world stage with the leader of China at a time where our own intelligence is assessing that China is exploiting our foreign policy blunders.

[Rick Stengel]

Yes. Eamon, Xi Jinping and the whole China leadership look at the US as being a nation in decline, in terminal decline. Trump's role is that he's accelerating, that

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

they just get out of the way. They're just like, let's just get out of the way.

[Rick Stengel]

Well, that is right. Whatever the military is saying, when your enemy is falling, don't get in his way. That is their attitude. And of course they prize stability. I remember every meeting I ever had with the Chinese. They talk about superpower cordiology. You know, superpowers getting along. They look at the US and China as G2 and they get stronger. The more peaceful the world is, the less conflict. So when they see the US in conflict and using all of our weapons, they think, well, they can't fight a two front war anymore. They couldn't do anything about us if we're going to do anything about Taiwan, but we're not going to do anything about Taiwan because the US Is in terminal decline. They have strategic ambiguity about Taiwan anyway. So it's going to fall into our lap.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Eventually, General, let me play for you what President Trump said to Sean Hannity about how China is responding to this Iran war. Take a listen.

[Sean Hannity]

The issue, and you've been asked about it and you've spoken about it, and that is China's support of Iran. How big a discussion was that today?

[Donald Trump]

We discussed it. I mean, when you say support, they're not fighting a war with us or anything. No, he said he's not going to give military equipment. That's a big statement. He said that today. That's a big statement. Said that strongly. But at the same time, he said, you know, they buy a lot of their oil there and they'd like to keep doing that.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

So how big of an issue is this when you kind of juxtapose it with the timeline of some reporting that suggests both Russia and China were giving Iran intelligence about American military basis in the region? There was some of that reported early on, specifically with the precision in which Iran was attacking some of our bases with their cheap drones. And now with what the, with what the President is saying.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, the passing of intelligence from Russia and China to Iran is not unexpected. I mean, that's another thing you plan on. And you have to develop scenarios where you counter that. You know, I mean, we throw around the term asymmetric a lot, and a lot of people don't understand what that really means. What I'd suggest is it's every time you provide a vulnerability to your enemy, they're going to take advantage of it. And that's not just weapons systems or bases. It's things like allies and going into other countries that the US has deserted and has walked away from. The Chinese and the Russians are both taking advantage of that. They're, you know, selling arms to different nations. You know, it may even be arms dealers that are doing that. It's not necessarily the government of China. But those are the kind of things that thwart us when we don't have allies in different parts of the world, whether it's Europe or the Middle east or Africa. And, you know, I'm over a decade removed from commanding in Europe, but I will tell you that on a daily basis, we got intelligence in something called a black book that showed you where the Chinese and the Russians were acting in different countries in both Europe and Africa. And that's only been accelerated over the last couple of years.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Let me read a little bit more from John's reporting. He says the war has also drained the US of massive stocks of munitions that would be critical in a potential standoff with China over the fate of Taiwan. The Iran conflict, which has resulted in the damage or destruction of US Military hardware and facilities around the Middle east, has allowed Beijing to observe how the US Fights wars and learn how to plan its own future. Is there anything to suggest that the Pentagon prepared for this possibility, that it could find itself dealing with this war and also a potential tense moment with China? I know that the military plans for all kinds of scenarios, but I'm smiling

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

because I hate to keep going back to my experiences. But as the J says, that's why

[Rick Stengel]

we have you here.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

We want you to draw on those experiences.

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

The J7 on the Joint Staff during the Iran and Iraq war, the chairman charged me as the war planner to tell him where we were taking risk. So as we were providing different things to Afghanistan or Iraq, I had to report to the chairman, what's the risk level in North Korea? What's the risk level in South America? Where are we taking risk in different locations? That was my job. So when you talk about the Joint Staff planning, and they are not just focused on Iran or any specific place, Venezuela, there's someone in the Joint Staff who's pulling that all together and saying, hey, we're providing an awful lot of stuff to strike targets in Iran. 15,000 kinetic strikes means that there were 15,000 precision missiles launched. That's a big part of the inventory. So you have to take a look at the other war plans. What the other combatant commanders in Asia or in northcom. Hey, how's that affecting your potential war plan, your contingency plan? And if they raise the flag and say, ooh, we're at risk here because you're using all of our stuff in Iran, we can't execute our mission. And I think we had the Indo Pacific commander testify to that in Congress just about a week ago.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah, and it seems the administration, specifically Trump, is getting more frustrated with the reporting coming out of journalists like John and others who are doing this incredible job of kind of shedding a light on what's happening behind the scenes as opposed to the decisions that his administration has actually made. I mean, he's been calling accusing journalists of, quote, virtual treason as more and more of this reporting comes out. What do you make of that? I mean, you worked in that space of, like, public affairs and public diplomacy and understand the importance of the media, and you have now President accusing reporters of treason.

[Rick Stengel]

Well, when you're looking for leakers, that means there's actually something wrong with your policy, because if your policy was right, people wouldn't be leaking about it. The truth is, though, censorship in wartime is as old as human history. You know, Cicero said in times of war, the Constitution is silent. We've had many episodes in American history, Woodrow Wilson, Lincoln, where there's a repression of the press. But what I think is different now about the Trump administration is that they themselves are the font of myths and disinformation. They are giving false reporting about the war that's going on. And that's part of the reason that they're so upset about stories like those in the Times and the Washington Post that are saying actually what you're saying isn't true. I mean, Lincoln may have closed newspapers, but he didn't lie about losing battles.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

John, what do we know about the administration's appetite here for ending the ceasefire and resuming hostilities? There's been some speculation they may come up with a new name and for all variety of reasons to kind of renew the 60 day countdown clock for using or invoking the war powers or to avoid invoking the war powers resolution. But what do we know about the appetite for resuming hostilities within the administration?

[John Hudson]

Well, it changes by the day and in some cases by the hour. Big picture, Trump is looking for a way out. This is a hugely unpopular conflict. It has really split up his MAGA base. He obviously ran on taking the United States out of wars in the Middle east. But he's also frustrated and he's really struggling to find a solution that won't make it abundantly clear that the United States has come out the strategic loser of this conflict. You know, if he doesn't find a solution that reopens the strait, if he doesn't find a solution that somehow extracts much more concessions than Obama's Iran nuclear deal, then I think people are going to look at this conflict that resulted in civilian casualty that killed some U.S. service members that really had a drag on the global economy and said what? What were you thinking? Why did you do this?

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah, certainly a valid question. John Hudson, great reporting today. Thank you so much for joining us and helping us. Breaking it all down. Rick and General Hurtling, please stick around. We've got a lot more to discuss. When we come back, our next guest read the Trump administration's official counterterrorism strategy so you don't have to. Far from keeping the country safe, he says it shows the world just how unserious and dangerous this grievance focused White House has become. And later, Donald Trump told us this week when thinking about the war in Iran, he doesn't consider the financial struggles of everyday Americans at all, not even a little bit. Well, now voters are reacting to that sentiment. We're going to show you what they have to say. And another day, another embarrassing revelation about the perks Kash Patel seems to think belong to him in his role as FBI director. All those stories and much more when Deadline White House continues after this is don't go anywhere.

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[Chris Hayes]

Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Tom Nichols]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this Happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today. Wherever you get your podcasts,

[Donald Trump]

I always say so. We have two enemies. We have the outside enemy, and then we have the enemy from within. And the enemy from within, in my opinion, is more dangerous than China, Russia,

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

and the enemy within, by which Donald Trump means his critics and opponents here at home. For years now, Donald Trump has been pushing the idea that there are domestic threats that are as big of a challenge for the United States as its adversaries abroad. Now the Trump administration has released its official 2026 United States counterterrorism strategy, which reads less like an actual strategy and more like an effort to put Donald Trump's conspiracies, grudges and grievances to paper. In the Atlantic, Tom Nichols writes that it, quote, frames everything the administration doesn't like as terrorism and any actions it has already taken as counterterrorism. Its simplistic formulations loudly signal the Trump administration's incompetence to the entire world. Foreign adversaries are unlikely to be intimidated. Instead, they might even take some pleasure in knowing that the American government thinks drug dealers, transgender activists, and a bunch of street goons calling themselves Antifa are as much a threat as transnational terror organizations and their state sponsors. I want to Bring into the conversation staff writer at the Atlantic, Tom Nichols. He is a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the U.S. u.S. Naval War College. Also joining us, former DHS chief of staff during Trump's first term. Miles Taylor and Rican General Hertling are still with me. Tom, talk to us about, just as a reference point, what would a real counterterrorism strategy look like versus what we're seeing here?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, a real counterterrorism strategy would identify threats, prioritize them, explain to the reader where they come from, why they're dangerous, what instruments of national power we're going to bring to bear on those threats, which agencies will take, which parts of that, how we intend to counter their threats, the risks involved, the costs involved. Really, that's with.

[Rick Stengel]

With.

[Tom Nichols]

That's what you would do with any strategy. You identify a problem, how you bring your efforts to bear, what it would cost, what the risks are, and so on. This does none of that. This kind of was like, it's like they took a bunch of words from terrorism and counterterrorism documents and threw them together like a bag of refrigerator magnets and then made a counterterrorism strategy out of it. But this isn't a strategy, it's a screed. It's like, as I said in the piece, it's more like a bunch of notes for a campaign speech.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah, it's funny you say campaign speech, because the person who drafted this paper, Miles, was Sebastian Gorka, who worked in the first Trump administration. From your background, your expertise, is this someone who should be crafting our national security strategy?

[Miles Taylor]

No. I mean, there's a reason that Seb Gorka was fired the first time from the White House. As I remember when my boss, John Kelly, was DHS secretary and he went to the White House as White House chief of staff. The very first phone call I got when Kelly went to the White House was from Sebastian Gorka, who wanted to plead to keep his job at the White House. Now, he didn't keep his job at the White House because I think a lot of people felt like that was not the right person to be crafting America's counterterrorism strategy. Now, I was very involved in writing that first counterterrorism strategy for the Trump administration. And the irony is the White House refused to talk about domestic terrorism in the first counterterrorism strategy, even though we at DHS and the FBI said, said there was surging domestic terrorist activity, especially from far right militia groups. And now here we are. Fast forward to Donald Trump's second Term, look, they're talking about domestic terrorism finally because they've decided they want to politicize it. They don't wanna focus on where the threat's actually coming from. They wanna use this strategy to reorient the federal government to go after the President's enemies. I do not say that lightly. This is the most sweeping re architecture of the US Federal government to go after political enemies that we have ever seen. And we are talking about thousands and thousands of people who are being taken off actual threats and put on looking into left wing groups because the President has said so. That's really bad for our national security. I don't care if you vote Democrat or Republican or independent. This is very dangerous and this strategy cements that approach.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

And I'm going to pick up on that point that you just mentioned there, Miles, about the left wing, Tom, because you, in your piece, you write about this, you write violent left wing extremists, including anarchists and anti fascists. You say, who could these be? Communists, perhaps? Not quite. The document identified them as anti American, radically pro transgender and anarchists and promises to map them at home, identify their membership, map their ties to international organizations like Antifa and use, use law enforcement tools to cripple them operationally before they can maim or kill the innocent. What's the Trump administration actually saying here, Tom? Here? I mean, Chris Wray, the former FBI director said this about antifa in 2020. Listen,

[Sean Hannity]

so antifa is a real thing. It's not a group or an organization, it's a movement or an ideology. Maybe one way of thinking of it, it. And we have quite a number, and I've said this consistently since my first time appearing before this committee, we have any number of properly predicated investigations into what we would describe as violent anarchist extremists. And some of those individuals self identify with Antifa.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

So what do you make of what the former FBI, Trump's own FBI director said about that in 2020 versus what they're saying now in this report?

[Tom Nichols]

Well, what Chris Wray said in 2020 is reality that people use this as a label, as a brand, as a slogan. Yeah, there are guys, that's why I mentioned, you know, street goons. There are guys who say we're Antifa and they show up in, you know, balaclavas and you know, to street protests. But the idea of, you know, they notice in the report they capitalize Antifa like it's a thing, like it's specter or thrush or something, you know, that it's this or chaos. You know, it's this evil organization. When in fact, you know, you have, you know, grandmothers who say I'm antifa because I can't stand Trump. I mean, this is one of the reasons that I for years told people that this was a dumb word to use, that the administration would seize on it. Like it's some sort of huge transnational organization with tentacles everywhere. But what they're really saying is anybody who's, who identifies on the political left who uses that word, we're creating a predicate for somehow labeling them as a terrorist. It's a very weird document. You know, like pro, transgender, anarchist, antifa. You know, again, it's, it's kind of a Mad Libs approach. But I think Miles point is right. That it's meant to basically take everybody that Donald Trump doesn't like, anybody who opposes Donald Trump's administration, and throw them all into a big basket that says left wing terrorists that we can now go after. And I don't. I think it was done incompetently and stupidly. I think, you know, as Miles points out, you know, Seb Gorka is not exactly, you know, a sparkling talent in the counterterrorism field, but. But now there's an official US Document that at least lays down some kind of predicate for doing this.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah. And speaking of sparkling talents, let's combine this strategy with who's leading the FBI. That is Kash Patel, somebody facing alleg of unexplained absences after nights out, partying, emotional outburst. Miles, you have an Attorney General who's also now pursuing the people on Trump's enemies list. He boasts about that openly. And there is conflict with Iran. It's not a pretty picture if you are a national security official who is assessing threats across this country and thinking your leadership is really on top of things.

[Miles Taylor]

No, not at all. And according to recent reports, the team that's focused on these politically sensitive investigations has been dubbed internally the payback squad. I mean, it is like cash. Patel is auditioning to be the person who's recognized as the heir of Herbert Hoover. And, you know, it is taking our eye off the ball of very serious threats. I mean, we have seen prosecutor after prosecutor leave doj, agent after agent leave the FBI and say that their focus, their eyes were taken off the ball to things like immigration and away from actual counterterrorism, actual counterintelligence cases against the Russians and the Chinese, very important cybersecurity investigations, and forced to focus on the President's political priorities. That's not the type of law enforcement that the American people want to be paying for.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah. So, Rick, to pick up on that point, Russia, China, Iran, they're probably watching this and thinking America is consumed with, with this administration is consumed with transgender activists as the biggest threat to it. And they're probably sitting here figuring out how or where to carry out the next cyber attack against the US what infrastructure they could potentially target. And we're worried about antifa and transgender groups.

[Rick Stengel]

I couldn't be more delighted about that because we're taking the eye off the ball. But I want to pick up one thing about the document because I did have a look at it before the show and Tom noted this, too. In the first three pages, I found two grammatical mistakes and one spelling error. I'm sure there are other spelling errors and grammatical mistakes as well. If you look at all the spelling errors and grammatical mistakes that the White House has made since George Washington and put that compared to the number of spelling errors and grammatical mistakes that the Trump White House has made, the Trump White House is probably six times that. And what that also tells the Chinese and the Russians is, is they're not serious. Just because you make a spelling error doesn't mean you're necessarily wrong about your counterterrorism strategy. But it might make you think maybe you're not taking it that seriously.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Or reread and proofread.

[Rick Stengel]

Yeah. Because it is a very bizarre document and they should correct those mistakes online.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

That's the editor in you. I think that's coming up. Yes, exactly.

[Rick Stengel]

I have more credentials as an editor than a counterterrorist.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Rick Stengel, it's great to have you as always. Tom Nichols, thank you so much. Miles and General Hertling are sticking around for another block after a break. Drip, drip, drip. The head of the FBI taking another controversial personal excursion while on a government trip. We're going to tell you about that and more.

[Chris Hayes]

Artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes, and as part of my podcast, why Is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Tom Nichols]

We're right now in a situation where it's very difficult to understand what is real and what's not real.

[Chris Hayes]

Why is this happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now start listening today wherever you get your podcasts.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

FBI Director Kash Patel is facing a fresh wave of scrutiny over a new excursion while on official FBI business when he was in Hawaii last summer. The Associated Press is now reporting that Patel took part in what the government government officials described as a VIP snorkel around a Pearl harbor memorial in an outling coordinated by the military. It was revealed in government emails obtained by the Associated Press and occurred in one of this country's most sacred memorial sites. The AP reports this. With few exceptions, snorkeling and diving are off limits around the USS Arizona. The battleship, now a military cemetery reachable only by boat, has stood as one of the nation's most hallowed sites since Japan bombed and sank it in 1941. Marine archaeologists and crews from the National Park Service make occasional dives at the memorial to survey the conditions of the wreck. Other dives have been concluded or conducted. I should say to enter the remains of Arizona survivors who wanted to rest eternally with their former shipmates. Now the snorkeling session happened one day after Patel stopped in Washington to open the FBI's first standalone office in New Zealand. Patel's tenure leading the nation's top law enforcement agency has been littered with headlines about his use of taxpayer resources for travel. Like back in February when Patel generated controversy for appearing to chug beer with the U.S. men's Olympic Hockey team in Milan. Joining the conversation now, senior political analyst and contributing host on Pod Save America and host of the podcast Runaway Country. Alex Wagner is here and Miles and General Hertling are still with us. General, let me start with you on this one. Talk to about the significance of this site. Who, who manages this site? Who operates this site? I know you have personal experience with it. And, and how could something like this have happened?

[Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, I was at one time in my career a member of the American Battle Monuments Commission, which has 26 cemeteries around the world outside the United States. There is a cemetery in Hawaii, in Honolulu called the Honolulu American Cemetery. It is called the punch bowl. In slang, it's in the. In a volcano. The Arizona is different, though. That's run by the Park Service. And anyone that's been there knows that the sunken Arizona is still visible from the top of the water. And there is a platform over the top of it where visitors can go, lay wreaths, see the. And every once in a while, I mean, there's literal oil droplets that come up because it's still coming from the ship. But there are sailors in turn in that ship. To have someone doing a snorkel trip around the Arizona would sort of be like running or having a 5k race through a cemetery. It's just ridiculous, and it's sacrilege. These. These places provide homage to those who gave their lives. And to me, this particular event that Mr. Patel went through just shows how much he's lost contact with reality and thinks that. That his position allows him to do these kind of things.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah. Deeply offensive and disrespectful. Alex, let me share some more of the Associated Press reporting. The former FBI directors have visited Pearl Harbor. They've done so on official business. None going back to at least 1993 has gone snorkeling at the memorial, according to those familiar with their activities. And a former government diver who spoke to AP on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution. The divers said it was unusual for a director or anyone not connected to the memorial to be granted such access because the swims come with physical risks and present security, safety, and logistical challenges. His tenure, of course, Alex, has been different and has been defined by stories like this, but this one even feels different than chugging beers with the U.S. olympic hockey team.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah. There's something about very important person snorkeling around a mass grave that does not ring normal, even. And it also. I mean, independent of the sacrilege and the profound mismanagement of public resources and the taking advantage of his position, the corruption that's inherent in an activity like this, you have to wonder, like, when is Kash Patel working? He's snorkeling. He's drawing up batches of bourbon to give to his cronies. He's chugging beer overseas. I mean, this person is the head of the FBI at a time when the resources and the serious people in the building have been kicked out. There are very real threats to the homeland who. Who has their hand on the captain's wheel. I mean, we already knew that the DOJ was be clowning itself with these bogus investigations and weaponized attacks against Trump's enemies. But this is another level of unseriousness that I think actually might resonate with Donald Trump. I mean, the idea, first of all, just the image of Kash Patel and flippers and a snorkel mask is, like, disconcerting enough to be fired, but to be doing so at Pearl harbor is another level of comedic inappropriateness and utter, utter disqualification.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah, Miles, I mean, you've worked for the government, you've traveled with senior officials, you've been on trips where I'm sure people take a minute to pay respects wherever they may be in situations like this. But this.

[Rick Stengel]

This.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

This is different. I mean, how are your trips different than what Cash Patel is doing here?

[Miles Taylor]

Well, I. I've taken cabinet secretaries to that spot, to Pearl Harbor. I've organized that trip. I've let it. It never even occurred to me to say, bring your swimsuit. Let's pop on a snorkel and let's go swim through a cemetery, like the general said. Never occurred to me. Was also never offered up to me. And this is pure speculation, but I've got a suspect that this was something that Cash Patel himself suggested doing. Otherwise, I don't know how it would have come up. But you hear all of this, and anyone who's been in government, in any administration hears all of this and says, what the hell is going on here? The snorkeling, the chugging the beers, the taking government jets to see his girlfriend performing. Cash Patel is acting like this is rich kids spring break. That's not what this is. We are paying you to protect our interests. Doesn't seem like he's on the job very much, but when he is on the job, it seems like he's just focused on the President's retribution and going after his enemies and persecuting people and apparently sending agents to go investigate reporters who tell these stories, to go polygraph the FBI employees who are talking to those reporters to try to sound the alarm. This guy's got his priorities inside out. But it's not just him. This comes from the top. And I think that's what we have to focus here. Donald Trump is giving Cash Patel permission to do this, and we need to make sure that that is clear.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Yeah, it is a permission structure that starts at the very top. Miles Taylor. Alex, please stay with me. General Hertling, it's great to see. As always, thank you so much for your time, sir. I really appreciate it. Coming up, some Republicans in the Senate are having a hard time getting behind hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars for a ball room no one asked for. As the cost of living continues to creep up, we're going to look at whether they can really, really say no. In the wake of a proposal from the White House and Secret Service that has ballooned to $1 billion funding request for security enhancements that includes Trump's White House Ballroom. Ms. NOW's Michael Schnell is reporting that there is growing anxiety among Republicans over using taxpayer dollars to fund the project. Project, quote. Plenty of GOP lawmakers, from vulnerable Republicans to hardline conservatives, are expressing skepticism over the provision. Some don't like the price tag. Some don't like that it's being included in the fragile reconciliation package. And many just don't like the optics of approving a ballroom when gas prices and inflation are on the rise. The Trump administration has tried to claim that the ballroom will be funded by private donations. But this week, Homeland Security Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen told lawmakers that that ballroom security cannot be privately funded. We're back with Alex and Miles. Alex, The American public widely reject Trump's ballroom by 2 to 1 margin. According to a poll from the Washington Post and ABC News, just 28% of Americans support the project. And you got to wonder why the President is still hell bent on pushing this through and now potentially using taxpayer dollars for it.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, I feel like the theme of this year is let them eat cake. I don't think he really cares. Right. This is, I believe this is what you find in the encyclopedia under political disaster, the funding of a $1 billion ballroom at the same time that gas is like nearing $5 a gallon and the President's doing nothing about it. This is the kind of news that if you are Susan Collins in Maine or John Husted in Ohio or any number, or Dan Sullivan in Alaska, these are, this is the kind, this is the kind of information, these are the kind of maneuvers that have you calling your psychiatrist and asking for a refill on Xanax because there's no way to spend honestly. Like, these are vulnerable Senate Republicans who are now going to either have to vote on this or excuse away the fact that the President is utterly unconcerned in his own words about American financial situations and is doing nothing to alleviate affordability or alleviate rising costs and tackle affordability at the same time. I don't know if you know this. Amazing. Today, JD Vance is in Maine, a swing state, trying to tout the administration's focus on affordability, while Trump is asking for $220 million for the ballroom. And I think like 100 or $150 million. $150 million for high profile national events, which I guess is like a UFC fight on the South Lawn. It's like comic. It is totally Marie Antoinette level stuff that you have going on here. Stuff is a euphemism. But I know this is a family program.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

Brown Miles. The construction has already started, as we've seen in some of the recent pictures. How do Democrats use these images of Trump building a ballroom in his backyard in the midterms with him also saying he does not care about the financial concerns of Americans when so many Americans are struggling economically? I mean, it's a campaign slogan. And campaign commercials that basically right themselves.

[Miles Taylor]

Yeah, I agree with Alex. I mean, there's almost nothing that Democratic operatives need to do other than just news boost these stories. I mean, the more the American people become aware of this, the more disgusted they are. And this isn't just the left. I mean, we are seeing Donald Trump's numbers among independents cratering. We are seeing MAGA audiences breaking away from the president. And it's because of things like this. Now he's in the course of stealing from taxpayers to do this. He's handing a gift to the Democrats. I think we would rather he not misappropriate federal funds to do things like this. But I'll also add this. I worked in the Bush administration helping to oversee the Secret Service. I oversaw them on two congressional committees. I was in charge of their budget on Capitol Hill, and then again in the Trump administration. I can tell you unequivocally, from a security standpoint, there is no purpose to this. It is purely a vanity project. This is not a national security project. There is no need for it whatsoever. However, anything the president says about it should be couched in the fact that he wants a place to dance and throw parties. And that is what this is about. Oh, and by the way, he wants to put his name on something that lasts longer than him. But I can assure you of one thing. His name will come off that ballroom if it gets built. And there's a good chance that ballroom gets deconstructed if he goes forward with it.

[Ayman Mohiuddin]

All right, Miles Taylor, Alex Wagner, great to have both of you with us this hour. Really appreciate it. As always after a break, a billionaire indicted for corruption and and fraud was given an offer he just couldn't refuse after hiring a personal attorney of Donald Trump. We'll explain next. So the Justice Department is poised to drop fraud charges against India's richest man. And according to the New York Times, all it took was a new lawyer and a PowerPoint presentation. The Times reports that the reversal came after the Indian billionaire Gautama Dhan Adani hired a new legal team led by Robert Giffra, one of President Trump's personal lawyers and the co chairman of the prominent firm Sullivan and Cromwell. Jifra's efforts on Adani's behalf culminated in a previously unreported meeting last month at the Justice Department's headquarters in Washington, D.C. according to people familiar with the meeting, Jifra ticked through about 100 slides outlining why prosecutors lack basic evidence as well as the jurisdiction even to bring the case. One of the people said another slide also made an unusual offer. If prosecutors dropped the charges, Adani would be willing to invest $10 billion into the American economy and create 15,000 jobs, echoing a pledge he had made in the wake of Trump's election. Another completely normal transaction after a break, this quick one, is Trump handling the economy, finally driving away even his own base? The next hour of deadline, White House starts right after for a quick break.

[Tom Nichols]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.