“The White House and the spectacle of the war in Iran”

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The White House and the Spectacle of the War in Iran"

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC NOW
Date: March 11, 2026

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Overview

This episode centers on the political, cultural, and ethical controversy surrounding the Trump administration's war in Iran, focusing especially on the White House’s attempts to market the conflict through sensational media. Wallace and her guests dissect the backlash from across the political spectrum and American society, scrutinize the administration's fractured narrative, and explore how the war’s unpopularity is influencing broader democratic and electoral concerns. The fallout in battleground states like Arizona and the role of prominent figures—from athletes to online influencers to Barack Obama—in shaping public opinion are also examined.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Cultural & Political Backlash Against White House War Propaganda

• The marketing of war: The White House released videos intercutting footage of bombings in Iran with NFL highlights and movie scenes ("Tropic Thunder"), sparking outrage for trivializing war ([02:00–04:10]).
• Broad condemnation: Prominent sports figures (Ray Lewis, Ed Reed) and Hollywood voices (Ben Stiller) rejected their unauthorized use. Religious leaders decried the spectacle’s dehumanizing effect.
  • Ray Lewis: “I did not approve my image ... War is something entirely different. Lives are at stake. God bless our troops and their families.” ([02:30])
  • Ben Stiller: “Hey, White House, please remove the Tropic Thunder clip... War is not a movie.” ([03:20])
  • Archbishop of Chicago: "Our government is treating the suffering of the Iranian people as a backdrop for our own entertainment ... The price of this habit is our humanity" ([03:45]).
• National mood: The lowest popular support for a major war in modern U.S. history (41%), highlighting Trump’s failed narrative control compared with previous conflicts ([09:15]).

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2. Fragmentation & Loss of Narrative Control

• Disintegration of support: Unprecedented rejection extends beyond traditional critics—sports, pop culture, and even right-wing influencers have created a “permission structure” for public dissent ([04:54]–[11:47]).
  • Paul Rykoff: “You lost Joe Rogan. You definitely don’t want to piss off Ray Lewis and Ed Reed ... It's an entire spectrum of people from all political backgrounds who are saying no to this war in Iran.” ([05:10–05:32])
• Cascading impact: The breakdown in narrative dominance allows new voices and coalitions to form against the war and the administration.
  • Angelo Carusone: “If all these cultural figures were cheerleading it or ... saying nothing ... we’d be in a different place. Trump ... is not able to tell a narrative and ... shape the perception and the politics.” ([11:47–13:01])

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3. Political Implications & Questions for Leadership

• Weak White House messaging: Notable absence of a coherent case for the war stands in contrast to previous U.S. conflicts ([16:29–18:20]).
  • Michelle Norris: “[The President] is not willing to make any kind of coherent case. ... This is before the public opinion is as low as it is, before you see the normal drivers that will sink public opinion about a war.” ([16:29])
• Democratic political opportunities: Senator Tammy Duckworth, among others, urges a focus on protecting American interests and opposing the reckless use of military force ([20:53–22:19]).
  • Duckworth: “We are not going to waste ... the most important resource ... the men and women who wear the colors of this nation.” ([21:36])
• Challenge to Democrats: While message and messenger matter, guests argue Democrats must pair their opposition with specific, actionable plans to counter Trump’s war and undermine his attempts to subvert elections ([25:41–27:03]).

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4. Culture War, Militarization, and Religious Messaging

• Militarization of civil society: Guests note the Pentagon’s politicization as part of the culture war, with increased religious and right-wing overtones ([23:27–28:08]).
  • Paul Rykoff: "I've called [Pete Hegseth] the Acting Secretary of Culture War ... they've been waging the culture war within the Pentagon, banning books, removing rights for women, pushing Christianity, changing the way... religion is interwoven into everything." ([27:08])
• Religious narratives: The war is increasingly cast in apocalyptic, Christian nationalist terms—a trend with worrying implications for both policy and troop morale ([23:27–24:51]).

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5. Elections, Disinformation, and State-Level Resistance

• Arizona as battleground: The administration’s push to weaponize national security agencies against state elections continues, with Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs describing repeated efforts to undermine confidence in elections ([31:51–38:43]).
  • Gov. Katie Hobbs: “We’re seeing the same playbook that we saw in 2020 ... the President tried to sow doubt and undermine voters confidence in the systems ... And we’re back in that place.” ([34:45])
  • Election denial’s fatigue: Arizona voters, tested by years of conspiracy theories and audits, are growing weary—though the threat of election-denier candidates persists ([37:24]).

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6. Barack Obama's Activism for Democracy

• Coverage of President Obama’s active engagement in supporting democratic processes, especially in closely contested environments like Virginia and California ([39:34–42:57]).
  • Michelle Norris: “Where democracy has been the question, [Obama] seems a little more willing to engage and lend his voice to the fight.” ([41:46])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Paul Rykoff ([05:10]): “You lost Joe Rogan. You definitely don’t want to piss off Ray Lewis and Ed Reed ... It’s an entire spectrum of people from all political backgrounds ... saying no to this war.”
• Angela Carusone ([11:47]): “If all these cultural figures were ... saying nothing, ... we would be in a different place.”
• Michelle Norris ([16:29]): “War is something that people take very seriously. And this White House doesn’t seem to be taking this seriously.”
• Nicole Wallace ([09:27]): “It’s a real tragedy for the military who doesn’t have a say in when the country goes to war. But it is that number. That number is squarely because of Donald Trump’s conduct in taking the country to war.”
• Governor Katie Hobbs ([34:45]): “We’re seeing the same playbook ... the President tried to sow doubt and undermine voters confidence ... We are back in that place.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:00–04:10]: Overview of White House’s war propaganda and public backlash
• [04:54–07:14]: Discussion of the rupture in coalition and narrative control (Paul Rykoff, Nicole Wallace)
• [09:15–11:05]: War popularity numbers and comparison to historical conflicts
• [11:05–13:39]: Influence of cultural figures and online personalities on opposition to war
• [16:29–18:20]: Failure of the White House to justify the war; implications for public support
• [20:53–22:19]: Tammy Duckworth on the importance of messaging around real American concerns
• [23:27–28:08]: The militarization of culture and problematic religious justifications for war
• [31:51–38:43]: Interview with Governor Katie Hobbs about election protection in Arizona
• [39:34–42:57]: Barack Obama’s ongoing efforts to support democracy and election integrity

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Conclusion

This episode vividly captures a moment of national reckoning over the war in Iran: a widespread, cross-partisan repudiation of the Trump administration’s narrative and methods, shaking loose the usual coalition of right-wing and cultural influencers. The politicization of the military, rising religious rhetoric, and war’s deep unpopularity have stirred unusually broad engagement. Simultaneously, concerns about election subversion and democratic backsliding take center stage in states like Arizona, with former President Obama joining activists and officials to defend the voting process. The panel emphasizes that messaging alone is insufficient—real plans and alternative leadership are crucial for opposition forces to stop the administration’s dangerous course, both domestically and abroad.

Transcript

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[Paul Rykoff]

Which just seems so insane based on what he ran on. I mean, this is why a lot of people feel betrayed, right? He ran on no more wars and these stupid senseless wars. And then we have one that we can't even really clearly define why we did it. Well, but he said he's against endless wars. Listen man, they're all endless.

[Nicole]

I know, I know why. More Joe Rogan. I'll tell you why. Because no one, no one aided Donald Trump in the final weeks of his presidential run more than that guy. So to hear him articulate regret and remorse is something Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. Cause and effect. Go about an historic betrayal of your own political coalition, including Joe Rogan, and watch them reject you publicly. But that emphatic disassociation with Donald Trump's war in Iran isn't just a Joe Rogan thing. It isn't just happening in the manosphere. It appears to be a whole of American culture thing. Consider one slice of this story in particular the garish and grotesque montages published on social media by the White House lately. Most recent a video of bombs dropping in Iran spliced with big hits from the NFL, including hall of Famers Ed Reid and Ray Lewis. It's video we wouldn't normally show you here, but we do because of the outrage around the videos and the corners. It's coming from all corners of American life. From The Huffington Post quote A representative for Ray Lewis confirmed to the HuffPost that the White House did not reach out to him or his team for the video. Quote, I did not approve my image or football highlights being used to compare football to war, lewis said in a statement to HuffPost. Quote, the game I love is about discipline, brotherhood and respect. War is something entirely different. Lives are at stake. God bless our troops and their families. Ed Reid, on the other hand, posted simply, quote, I do not approve this message, end quote. In similar fashion, the White House cut up real life drone strike footage with movie scenes, including Tropic Thunder. That film's director, Ben Stiller, replied like this, quote, hey, White House, please remove the Tropic Thunder clip. We never gave you permission and have no interest in being part of your propaganda machine. War is not a movie, end quote. Outside of podcast world in Hollywood, the Archbishop of Chicago amplified that message as well in a statement that read in part, our government is treating the suffering of the Iranian people as a backdrop for our own entertainment, as if it's just another piece of content to be swiped through while we're waiting in line at the grocery store. But in the end, we lose our humanity. When we are thrilled by the destructive power of our military, we become addicted to the spectacle of explosions. And the price of this habit is almost unnoticeable as we become desensitized to the true costs of war. But the longer we remain blind to the terrible consequences of war, the more we are risking the most precious gift God gave us, our humanity. I know that the American people are better than this. We have the good sense to know that what is happening is not entertainment, but war and that Iran is a nation of people, not a video game others play to entertain us. The broad scope of America's pushback is no surprise, taking into account what the New York Times published this week. The historic unpopularity associated with Donald Trump's war in Iran compared to other conflicts over a number of decades. That is where we start the hour. President of Media Matters for America, Angelo Caracson is here. Also joining us, senior contributing editor Michel Norris. And with me at the table, hot off a fantastic turn on Stephen Colbert's program. Paul Rykoff is here. He's the host of the Independent Americans podcast and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. I want to ask you what you think of these condemnations of the efforts to market the war.

[Paul Rykoff]

It's really important. It's a breaking point, I think, and it might be even something better. In every crisis, there's an opportunity. This might be the most unifying moment that we can remember in America.

[Nicole]

You are never positive. You're blowing my mind right now. This is not what I thought you were going to say.

[Paul Rykoff]

I think. I mean, there is a lot of death and destruction, and this is very, very bad. But there's also a moment happening where you lost Joe Rogan. You definitely don't want to piss off Ray Lewis and Ed Reed on any level. Right. Newt Gingrich.

[Nicole]

Explain why. Explain why that's so important.

[Paul Rykoff]

Because it's so many different segments, and these all, they have so much reach that goes beyond politics. Right. When you talk about.

[Nicole]

Well, that's totally the other side of our civic life.

[Paul Rykoff]

Yeah. And people who are trusted. Right. Like people trust Ray Lewis. He won a Super Bowl. Right. You've got people, even Newt Gingrich today. Right. It's an entire spectrum of people from all political backgrounds who are saying no to this war in Iran and no to boots on the ground and no to more. I think it's important because it comes right after the stunning lack of popularity around ice. So it's like a one, two punch that's crossing all different partisan backgrounds. And I think it can be a moment for the country to come together, if not around Trump specifically, with some of his hard base, still has a problem with around the war in Iran, around ice and around American values. Because war reveals who people are, the best of you or the worst of you. And it's revealing how terrible Donald Trump is, how despicable he is and how shameless he is. I mean, he wouldn't accept responsibility today in that moment when they asked him, you know, will you take responsibility? He didn't do it. And a leader's supposed to be responsible for everything we do and everything we fail to do. And the buck stops with him. And everybody can see it.

[Nicole]

And what is it about, what is it that gives people newfound confidence to reject him?

[Paul Rykoff]

It's popular. I think that this has happened at the award shows and the Grammys. There were these moments where people kind of broke the ice. And that was important because it was tough to attack Trump. ICE was like a gateway. It was an on ramp. They could attack ICE without saying Trump's name. And that kind of built a level of popular support. And it became popular to oppose ice. It became popular to come out against the Iran war. And that gives people permission to enter the conversation, especially if they're only tracking on sports. And that's the real problem here, is he's crossed into sports. He's crossed into spongebob. He's crossed into everything. So the entire country is watching, and they don't like what they see.

[Nicole]

Yeah. I mean, Michel, I think that Paul hit on something really important. When the history of these times is written, two people will have put everything that we're covering today in motion. One, the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell's heinous abuse. And two, the citizens of Minneapolis.

[Michelle Norris]

Yeah. And you know, I do think Paul is right about this being an on ramp, but I'm not sure that people are standing up against this because it's popular. I mean, we're at war. War is something that people take very seriously. And this White House doesn't seem to be taking this seriously. I mean, we, you know, just two days ago the President was calling this an excursion, which I think he probably maybe meant incursion set of excursion. But you know, they're not even willing to explain this to the public. You know, as to that video, one of the European news outlets called it slopaganda. And I think that that's a pretty good word to describe the use of these intercutting videos to turn war into some sort of game theory, the gamification of war. It does not do anything to advance the work and the effort of the soldiers that are involved in this war right now. It does nothing to project strength or discipline. It does nothing to secure the homeland here on the ground where people are very worried about their own safety and security. And let's just remember that the person who's in charge of terror threats in the Department of Homeland security is a 23 year old who just recently graduated from college and has worked as I think a gardener at some point in the past and a grocery store clerk has no national security background. And most of the people who had national security backgrounds at the FBI have also been dismissed. So the public sees all of this. They saw what happened in Minneapolis and they saw the value in speaking up. They saw the country, they saw the President take us to war without an explanation about why we're there or what the objective is or what the game plan is. And I think more and more people are willing to speak out against this. And this is, remember, this is the public opinion is at the beginning. It has nowhere to go but down at this point. It's at historic lows.

[Nicole]

Let me put those numbers up, Angelo. I mean, there is no example of wars becoming more popular as men and women in the military pay with their lives. Eight service members have died, 140 have been injured. And 41% of Americans support the war at this point. In World War II, 97% supported it after 9, 11. At this point in the war in Afghanistan, 92% supported it at this point. The Persian Gulf War in 1991, 82% of Americans supported it. Panama in 89, 80%. The Iraq War in 2003. At this point, 73% of Americans supported it. Those numbers would drop dramatically. 1950, 75% of Americans supported the Korean War at this point, Kosovo, 58%, down to 41% right now. It's a real tragedy for the military who doesn't have a say in when the country goes to war. But it is that number. That number is squarely because of Donald Trump's conduct in taking the country to war. We've been tracking over the last 12 days. There are nine public explanations for why we're there. There are four timelines that have been articulated, and there is yesterday. It was, quote, almost completed and just beginning. So, you know, we've talked for years now about narrative dominance. There is no narrative grasp on the war in Iran. No.

[Angelo Carusone]

And I think a lot of our conversations sort of dovetail with those numbers that you pointed out, because when you have narrative dominance, you can affect people's perceptions and feelings about a particular issue. You can shape the vibes, and if you don't like you have right now, you get the opposite. People can actually. They can get. They can get their experience a bit unfiltered or unadulterated. You know, those numbers would be very different if all of these cultural figures were cheerleading it or at minimum, saying nothing. As Paul noted, it's created a permission structure for more people to talk about it. Or if Joe Rogan was out there explaining a rationale for why we really need to be doing this and we. Why you need to give the administration more time and space.

[Nicole]

Right.

[Angelo Carusone]

At minimum, it could help be a buffer for people say, okay, maybe I should hold off of a second. If all these figures were doing what they had been doing for Trump for all these years and backfilling his, you know, his policies, his claims with their own narrative reinforcement, we would be in a different place. And so it is reinforcing why it matters so much. And I was so glad you made that point in the opening. We know, because I do get it when people talk about Joe Rogan. I hear the so what? And the so what is exactly what you articulated. It has an effect on the perception, and then by extension, the hope is that it has a effect on the politics, which is how you get change that. Bottom, the perception that we're seeing in the public is so different now. It hasn't yet affected the way Republicans, who actually have the levers of power and checks here, can actually change the way or what the. What the President's doing or change the course and direction here. But it is brewing and it is simmering just Another example, as I was thinking about what you and Paul were talking about at the beginning about the wide scale culture. One figure who's been out against this is this guy Sneako. He's probably one of the most influential people that people in politics, in this audience have never heard of. He's a huge online influencer, did video games. Now he does right wing politics, so really far right politics. And his audience is huge and highly engaged. And he was out there calling those videos slop, criticizing the war, saying that the Trump administration had no plan. This made no sense. I mean, this is a far right online streamer who every other day is spouting nonsense, who is out there telling his audience that the current president and the plan is more ridiculous than the day to day programming that he provides. And that is a reinforcement of just how widespread this is. Yeah, sure, there are pockets that are all in on this war, but it is far and few between. And that means that Trump is not able to tell a narrative and this engine behind it is not able to backfill it and shape the perception and the politics.

[Nicole]

What's interesting to me, Paul, Angela saying is, so Trump beats Lindsey Graham in the 2015 Republican primary and sort of sides with the isolationism which Trump sees before the Republican his opponents in the primary do. And now he's siding with Lindsey Graham on foreign policy. Let me show you the hot war of words between Lindsey Graham and Megyn Kelly

[Angelo Carusone]

to our friends in Spain, man, you have lost your way. I don't want to do business with you anymore. I want our bases, our air bases out of Spain into a country that will let us use them to our Arab friends. I've tried to help you construct a new Mideast. You need to up your game here. I can't go to South Carolina and say we're fighting. And you won't publicly fight what you're doing behind the scenes, that has to stop. The double dealing of the Arab world when it comes to this stuff needs to end.

[Nicole]

I will send Lindsey Graham donuts for life if anyone in South Carolina actually walks up to Lindsey Graham and complains about Spain. But let me read Megyn Kelly's response. Quote, when did Lindsey Graham become our president? In the past 24 hours, he, Lindsey Graham has threatened Lebanon, Cuba, the Saudis, the wider Arab region, and now checks notes Spain. Let's get real. The problem with Lindsey Graham isn't just that he's a homicidal maniac. It's that Donald Trump likes him and is listening to him. And Trump's favorite channel is parading him around like a Hefner bunny in stockings on every show.

[Paul Rykoff]

I am in the rare position of agreeing with Megyn Kelly. Lindsey Graham is a spectacular, raging, aggressive, violent, hot mess. And he is bad for America. This is why I wish that Stephen Colbert would go back to South Carolina and run against him, because Lindsey Graham is bad for America. And he's also very bad for Donald Trump. I don't think he's helping. Even Meghan McCain called him out on that this week. I think it's also really important that Steve Bannon also has been aggressive in criticizing directly to camera Donald Trump. Look, the American people are not stupid. They're slow sometimes, right? We saw that on Iraq. We've seen that before. But they're not stupid. And they know when someone's lying to them and they know when someone's changing their position. And he promised the people no regime change wars. He promised them no new wars. He promised them no forever wars. So did Tulsi Gabbard and a cacophony of everyone around him. And they know that this is a lie. And I think that that's where I have faith in the American people to push back. But I'm also concerned because Donald Trump doesn't care about public opinion. He continues to go forward. So this is another moment for the Democrats and of course the Republicans. What's your strategy to stop him if he doesn't care about public opinion and he keeps going anyway?

[Nicole]

I mean, Tulsi Gabbard is an interesting case. Michelle Tulsi Gabbard and J.D. vance and Pete Hegseth, I think all rose to exist in Donald Trump's circle because they so agreed with him on his promise over the course of three presidential elections to never get the country embroiled in another war in the Middle East.

[Michelle Norris]

Well, we have an LBM candidate. Loyalty before merit. This Cabinet talks a lot about getting rid of dei. There are several people who are in positions that are beyond their reach in any other administration. And so the president is not surrounded by people who will tell him the truth, who will challenge him in any way. And he's not willing to then turn around and try to explain this war to the public. I was looking at the graphic that you showed the popularity of wars at the start. In previous administrations, presidents have had to bring the public along with them. In the 1940s, they had to sell World War II. The American public was battle fatigued after World War I, but there was a fear of fascism and democracies falling overseas. And so they made the case in the 2000s. They made the case after people were worried about terrorism after 9, 11. And so they made the case for Afghanistan and then later Iraq. The president here is not willing to make any kind of coherent case. He's not willing to make a case at all. And this is before the public opinion is as low as it is before you see the normal drivers that will sink public opinion about a war. When you see, as you know, the cardinal talked about the link between the battlefield and the living room. Before people start seeing images, we saw the images from Dover, Delaware. If war continues as it usually does, you will see much more of that. You will see images of things that will really turn public opinion and the other thing, you know, to bounce to a different war in Vietnam. One of the things that really drove public opinion there were the Vietnam veterans themselves coming back and speaking out against a war that they didn't understand and did not feel good to them. And so the public opinion is low at this point without those kind of drivers. And when that starts happening, you know, it has nowhere to go but down.

[Nicole]

All right, no one's going anywhere. Also had this hour, there's brand new reporting about how Donald Trump is not only using the FBI to investigate his debunked employees false claims about the 2020 election in the state of Arizona, but also a branch of the Department of Homeland Security usually charged with fighting drug cartels, all in a likely effort to undermine November's midterm election results. Arizona's governor will be our guest on what's being done to protect and safeguard democracy ahead of the midterms. That's later in the hour. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Senator Tammy Duckworth]

We can't just sit here and not fight for the American people. That's how Democrats lost the vote was because Americans did not think we were fighting for them, that we didn't care that their gas prices went up, that we were so worried about niche issues that we're not paying attention to the fact, you know, my farmers are just devastated. I have so many farmers who come to me like, you know, I'm seventh generation, but there's not going to be an eighth generation. The tariffs have taken away our markets. The tariffs have now made our input costs too high, and I'm looking at selling the family farm. They want us to fight for them, and we're going to fight for them. And when we get back into control, we're going to make sure that we not just fix the problems, that we make things better than they were before, and that we show folks that we are willing to fight for average families and that we're not going to waste our nation's resources, whether that is our natural resources or whether that is the most important resource, the most valuable resource, we have the men and women who wear the colors of this nation.

[Nicole]

That is a winning message. Whether Democrats can stick to that, whether Senator Duckworth can get all of her colleagues on that message or not, I think we'll see that play out in the coming days. But I mean, Angelo, that is the political battlefield on which the next eight months will play out. And that is the battlefield on which Democrats are winning over and over and over again in solidly red, solidly Trumpy legislative races and state races.

[Angelo Carusone]

Yeah, and I think that ties in in two ways with what we were talking about in the first segment. One is, you know, we talk about When Trump and the right has narrative dominance, they're projecting their message, they're controlling the story. One of the effects of that, though, is that it's very, very difficult for anybody else to get their message through because they've so crowded out anything else. And when you have this moment, like we were talking about all the disruption and the fact that they're all over the place and they don't have, you know, there's not, you know, there's all these spaces, all these cracks, which means there's a place for you to go. And so when you have a really good message now, as Senator Ducker was pointing out, and even if that's not the perfect message, if you have the impetus to fight, it actually has greater chance of being of rewards, of working, of building political will, of building wider coalitions and bases of support, because unlike in previous situations where they have total control over the communications landscape, they don't right now. So if you do a really good job, you have a good chance of getting something back politically ended working and building political power. That's how Trump built political power. He used the information landscape, built an organized power on the fringes, and then controlled the center as a consequence of it.

[Michelle Norris]

It.

[Angelo Carusone]

And he took advantage of the landscape. Well, this is a meaningful part of the landscape. And then the tie into something Michel was talking about, which is that as more and more of these. Of these people that are in the military either come back or start to speak up more, we're going to hear more about what's being said there. And one of the narratives that we don't talk about a lot in the national media that is sinking through, at least in the operational side of this, is that this is a holy war. I remember being on this show when, when Senator. When Pete Hegset was first appointed, and one of the things, because I remember he was a media figure, one of the things that was so clear at the time is that he saw the military as a flaming sword for Christ. And that is playing out in the way that they are talking about this at the front lines as one of the reasons why they're doing this, that this is. That this is somehow a bigger thing. And the rest of the Christian media is backing that up, that this is the prophecy that Trump has been put there by God. And we're going to start hearing those stories, not just stories of incompetent and all the terrible stuff that we're beginning to see. We're also going to see the ridiculous, crazy reasons why they're putting People on the front line and how they've been treating the troops and the soldiers that they're putting in harm's way and the things they're making them do for all these weird reasons. And that's going to further incentivize people. So when you're in the ring and in the arena, it gives you a chance to also use that information as it comes back to actually really maybe turn the tides here. I'm not an optimist, but this is a real opportunity and we shouldn't lose sight of that.

[Nicole]

I have a million more questions about the religious piece. I'm going to follow up with you on that, but I just want to put out a couple of names. I mean, what Senator Duckworth said is a message you hear from Senator Kelly, Senator Slotkin, Congressman Crow. I mean, they're, you know, one. It's, you know, it's one. But there is a group of Democrats, and those Democrats have gone toe to toe with Donald Trump of the video they made telling men and women of the military to disobey an illegal order. Senator Duckworth has always been a fighter. It's sort of her relationship with her constituents and her relationship with her country. I wonder if you see in them this sort of winning, front foot forward sort of political messaging.

[Paul Rykoff]

I see potential. And I have tremendous respect for Tammy Duckworth. I'm honored to know her. She sacrificed two of her legs for this country. She is the right kind of messenger. It's kind of a choose your fighter moment, right, where you got to put people up against Hegseth and Trump who are dominating the narrative. But they have to have more than messengers. They have to have a message which is starting to develop. But most importantly, they need a plan. They continue to criticize Trump appropriately for not having a plan on Iran. The question now for the Democrats is what is your plan to stop Iran? Is it just wait till November and we're going to win the election to

[Nicole]

stop the war in Iran.

[Paul Rykoff]

To stop the war in Iran, to stop boots on the ground, to stop him from going into Cuba. How are you going to get ahead of him and finally stop him from doing anything? And I think this is where the Democrats have to be more specific in their goals and their planning. They shut down the government over health care. They shut down DHS appropriately over ice. What are they going to shut down to stop the caskets from coming home? That's what I think the American people want to hear. And they can't assume that there are going to be free and fair elections In November. So what are you going to do to ensure that there are? Because Trump has made it clear he will disrupt the elections. He does not want an open and free election. And there is a danger right now, which is Trump's desperation. He is very low in the polls. He is very desperate. He's talking about the threats to the homeland, which are real, despite his messaging. The FBI is now reporting there could be drone threats to California. Those threats are real. So if a bad moment happens, we have to be able to offer an alternative narrative, but also an alternative plan.

[Nicole]

Talk about what? Angela's talking about the interconnectedness of religious messaging.

[Paul Rykoff]

I've said this from when Pete Hegseth was nominated. He is a culture warrior. I've called him the acting Secretary of culture war because he was put there first to make the Pentagon an instrument of the culture war. And they started there. They threw a Hail Mary. They got it through, and then everything else became easy after that. So they've been waging the culture war within the Pentagon, banning books, removing rights for women, pushing Christianity, changing the way pastors and the religion is interwoven into everything. And now they're turning the Pentagon as the tip of the spear for their culture war, not just in the US in the streets, and by extension, ice, but to the Middle east and to the world. This is in many ways the most dangerous course of action, with Trump and a group of culture warriors at the forefront. But now the challenge, not just for Democrats, but for Americans, and I think for independents especially, who are 45%. What is the alternative? What is the alternative plan for America? Who are the alternative leaders? Not just in politics, but especially around the outside of the military. Retired generals. This is a time for them to meet the moment, too.

[Nicole]

I mean, Michelle, we saw this at a state level, the state officials sort of responding or seeming to channel the energy and courage of their own constituents. Where are you seeing this across the country?

[Michelle Norris]

Well, I think you're seeing it at the state level. I think you're seeing it in some pulpits. It's interesting how people are now using their sermons. You noted the cardinal in Chicago. I think you're probably going to hear that in other places. You know, when Paul was talking about the message that people are expecting, I think people are also looking for reassurances now. I went back and looked at the messages that previous presidents have delivered to the public when they have led the country into war. We are in a really strange moment, Nicole. We are engaged in a war without a declaration of war. We are engaged in a war without an explanation for war. We are engaged in a war without clear objectives about what that war is supposed to to achieve. And I think if Democrats and independents, but particularly Democrats because they are in charge, can figure out how to step into that space and to provide assurances, but also a reality check on the very real threats that we face and other countries that are not directly involved in this, they're already communicating with the public about what they should be doing in matters of security to protect themselves and their families when they travel, about whether we might see some sort of cyber threat. And I think Democrats would be smart if they stepped into that space.

[Nicole]

Such a good point. It's such a weird moment. And it's so weird to have reporters on and say, what do they say to you? And they're like, well, it's nothing or everything. And to hear Donald Trump in one news cycle say the war is nearly complete and just starting, it's almost so convoluted, it's hard to believe it's really happening. Angelo and Paul, thank you so much for this conversation. To be continued. Michelle sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, the governor of Arizona, a state that is becoming ground zero for Donald Trump's efforts to make false claims of voter fraud as a pretext to taking control of the midterm elections. How Democrats are fighting those efforts after a short break.

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[Nicole]

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[Michelle Norris]

save

[Nicole]

as the Republican Party's midterm chances look increasingly dim with Donald Trump abandoning every single campaign pledge that helped propel him to the White House, Trump has turned to lies about the integrity of America's elections in order to bolster his party's chances in a bizarre sort of bank shot. The Associated Press is reporting that at a Republican retreat earlier this week, as members of Donald Trump's own political party begged him to focus on the economy and pocketbook issues, Donald Trump begged them to pass restrictive voting legislation instead, based on his lie that he didn't actually lose the 2020 presidential election to Joe Biden. Donald Trump calling for legislation to ban mail in ballots, saying this, quote, it'll guarantee the midterms. If you don't get it, big trouble, end quote, whatever that means. The Trump administration has also weaponized the federal government, including the national security agencies, to go after some of the states he views as most responsible for his electoral defeat in 2020. ABC News is reporting that a branch of the Department of Homeland Security known as Homeland Security Investigations, which is typically tasked with investigating drug cartels and human trafficking networks, has been diverted instead to investigate the 2020 election in Arizona. In response, Arizona officials are rushing to protect sensitive data warning counties not to hand over full, unredacted voter files to the federal government. Vote beat, writes this, quote, Attorney General Chris Mays and Secretary of State Adrian Fontes wrote in a joint letter to county recorders that disclosure of such materials to the U.S. department of justice would, quote, violate both federal and state law. They urged the recorders who control voter registration data to, quote, fulfill your oath by declining any such illegal demand. Mays and Fontes stopped short of promising litigation against anyone who gave voter information to the federal agencies, though they hinted at it. Quote, our offices are committed to upholding the sanctity of Arizona's elections and democratic process, the letter read. We will pursue to the fullest extent of the law all possible remedies to ensure the integrity of Arizona's elections and the privacy rights of our citizens. I want to bring in Arizona's governor, governor Katie Hobbs. Governor, thank you for being here.

[Governor Katie Hobbs]

Thanks for having me.

[Nicole]

How weird and surreal is it to be protecting an election result when literally all of Donald Trump's political allies were in office at every level? Not that that should matter, but it is a fact. And his close political allies came in and audited the election. I mean, he had political allies in the state legislature. What is this reach into Arizona's elections really about, in your view?

[Governor Katie Hobbs]

Well, I feel like I'm having deja vu. We're seeing the same playbook that we saw in 2020 where leading into the election, the President tried to sow doubt and undermine voters confidence in the systems. And then obviously we saw play out Arizona becoming ground zero for these election integrity conspir. Conspiracies. These election results were litigated multiple times. They were investigated, reviewed, audited, if you can call it an audit. So many times only to find out that the election results were actually the election results and Donald Trump actually lost. I was Secretary of State then. I stood up to defend the will of the voters over and over again. And we're back in that, in that place. We have to do that again, unfortunately, mentioned all of the issues that are facing Americans, people wanting the President to focus on the economy. And instead we're focusing on this election that happened five and a half years ago. And I think what's really concerning to me, I'm in a race for reelection right now. And my very likely opponent is not just an election denier, but one of Donald Trump's chief election deniers. He's in Congress. He helped organize January 6th. He sought a pardon for his role in that. He has defied congressional subpoenas and he said that on day one, he will get to work overhauling our election system. That doesn't need overhauling just to continue to gain Donald Trump's favor. And that is alarming. It means that this election is not just important for Arizona, it's important for the country. And I'm going to continue to stand up for democracy. I hope folks will join me in that to go to KatieHubbs.org to find out how to do that. But why are we back here? Why are we doing this again? If, if, if the President would just focus on the issues that matter to Americans, he wouldn't have to cheat at elections to win.

[Nicole]

It's interesting. I mean, Bill Barr, his hand picked Attorney General Liz Cheney, who supported him until the insurrection on January 6th. I mean, all sorts of prominent, nationally recognizable Republicans have attested to the fact that the election conspiracies are, you know, Bill Barr called them bs. What is it about Donald Trump's lies that has a grip on his supporters? And how tight is that grip in Arizona?

[Governor Katie Hobbs]

Well, you know, I was up against an election denier in 2022. I beat her then, and I'm confident I'll do it again this time around. But, but quite frankly, Arizonans are tired of these election conspiracies being played out in our state. We saw the aftermath of 2020 drag out well into 2021 with the cyber ninjas and their fake audit, only to find the results were the same as as they as they actually were. And, and that wasn't the only review. There's been multiple reviews and our elections are secure. We've had vote by mail here for decades. It was ushered in by a bipartisan legislature led by Republicans. 85% of our voters utilize it. And it's been incredibly successful and secure. And I'm going to continue to defend that by vetoing legislation that aims to curtail that and ensure that eligible voters Arizona are able to participate in our elections.

[Nicole]

Governor Katie Hobbs, thank you so much for your time today. Unfortunately for you, I think this conversation will continue over the coming months. We appreciate you being here.

[Governor Katie Hobbs]

Thank you.

[Nicole]

Thank you. When we come back, we'll bring Michelle back into the conversation and our friend and colleague Vaughn Hilliard will join us as well on what former President Barack Obama is doing today to help protect democracy. All that on the other side of a short break. Don't go anywhere.

[Paul Rykoff]

Virginia, we are counting on you. Republicans want to steal enough seats in Congress to rig the next election and wield unchecked power for two more years. But you can stop them by voting yes by April 21, help put our elections back on level playing field and let voters decide, not politicians. This is the responsible thing to do, help us chart a better path forward. Virginia, vote yes by April 21st.

[Nicole]

Joining our conversation, senior White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard. Michelle is still here. I mean, Vaughn, Donald Trump is making everything President Obama says there so urgent. I mean, Donald Trump saying the midterm strategy is to pass the SAVE Act. Donald Trump saying things about elections not needing to happen is only bolstering the urgency of not just the Virginia effort, which is what President Obama is talking about there, But California's Prop 50, which I think President Obama also did a message in support of. Is there anyone like, is there any cognizance that they're making the messaging against their efforts easier to convey and convince the public?

[Vaughn Hilliard]

I think it's A good question, Nicole, here. And I think that to each of those individuals you name point is that for five and a half years now, we have seen Donald Trump and his cadre of allies effectively lay down different variables of accusations, whether it be, you know, in Arizona giving Sharpies to voters knowing that they were going to vote Republican so that they wouldn't count when they were scanned, to claims of dead people voting, to claims of printing machines breaking for the purpose of hurting Republicans. The claims that they have made are so endless here. Undoubtedly we are going to see other efforts here over the course of the next months ahead. And I think that that is really where you see, I think the concern not just of Democrats but also one time Republicans who have the integrity of the democracy in mind because they have seen other Republicans. And if you use Arizona example, people like Mark Brnovich, who is the attorney general who did this vast investigation in 2022 into the election denialism, claims he issued a report in 2022 despite being an ally of Donald Trump, saying he couldn't prove vast fraud. And then you also see, you know, the likes of people like Rusty Bowers and different Maricopa County Board of Supervisors Republicans, Republicans who are no longer in office to stand in the way here. And so that pressure is going to exist on a great number of Democrats. But a lot of those one time Republicans that stood in the way in 2020, 2022, 2024, they're not around in 2026.

[Nicole]

Michelle, I might be wrong and I might be projecting what I want to be true onto this, but President Obama seems like if we were having just regular old Democrat versus Republican policy debates, he might not be as engaged. But I think he both cut an ad for California's Prop 50 and maybe did a call with organizers. And where democracy has been the question, he seems a little more willing to engage and lend his voice to the fight.

[Michelle Norris]

Well, he's done that in several elections, particularly where democracy is on the line. And that's something that's important to him. And he will continue to use his voice on the issue of Maricopa County. I just wanna remind people of the numbers. Joe Biden carried Maricopa county by 45,000 votes and carried the state of Arizona by 10,500 votes. So it's necessarily close. And this is a six year old story about a loss that has been examined and relitigated and the numbers have not moved. And so there are even people, to Vaughn's point, there are even people within the Republican Party that are advising Donald Trump that with everything going on, the war, the economy, oil prices, the upcoming election instead of the election in 2020, that he probably should be focusing on Once Upon a Time called Now.

[Nicole]

Well, let that be the last word. Michelle Norris, thank you for spending the hour with me. Vaughn Hilliard, thank you so much for your reporting from the White House. It's great to see both of you. When we come back after a very short break, we'll give you our last words. My guest in this week's episode of the Best People is comedian, actor, documentary movie producer, Tig Notaro. She spoke to me about everything, about the movie she's made, but also about her close friend, acclaimed poet Andrea Gibson, who died last year from stage four ovarian cancer. Tig and I talked about her Oscar nominated documentary, Come See Me in the Good Light. It chronicles the final years of Gibson's life. Take a listen to what she told me about her friend Andrea.

[Tig Notaro]

You know what it is? It's like everybody knows Andrea is a phenomenal poet, but to me, Andrea is also just a phenomenal laugh hang. And seeing how hard and deep Andrea is laughing in that scene like it is, and I love the lines on Andrea's face and when they smile and laugh and those lines get lifted up, I'm like, I can feel that Andrea is still here somehow. And I think that scene just really, really captures who Andrea Gibson is because I always say, Andrea, everything was so precious to Andrea, but also meanwhile, nothing was too precious and you could have the deepest conversation and then you could laugh so inappropriate with this person. And that's what that scene is to me is the depth and the, the silliness that was Andrea Gibson.

[Nicole]

Come See Me in the Good Light is available now. Please watch it ahead of the Oscars. It's a beautiful movie and it was a beautiful conversation. To hear the rest of it, just scan the QR code on your screen or download wherever you get your podcast. Let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

[Paul Rykoff]

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