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“The willingness to do whatever it takes”
00:43:35
Nicolle Wallace covers the latest on the Texas redistricting fight.
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- [00:01]
Chris Hayes
When work gets crazy, I like to.
- [00:03]
Nicole Wallace
Stop by the bar after, have a few cold ones.
- [00:06]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
I don't drink at all until 4 o'.
- [00:08]
Nicole Wallace
Clock. We limit ourselves to one bottle of wine a night.
- [00:12]
Eric Swalwell
Excessive drinking has a way of sneaking up on us. A few drinks, a few nights a week, it can add up and suddenly we're at greater risk for long term problems like heart disease, cancer and depression. Reason enough to rethink to Drink more@rethinktodrink.com.
- [00:29]
Nicole Wallace
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- [00:56]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Hi there everybody. It's four o' clock in the east on a hugely consequential day for the future of our democracy. It is 3 o' clock at the Texas State House in Austin, the burning hot epicenter today of the future of democracy right now following a marathon session crackling with fireworks, speeches and amendments and debate. At this moment it appears we are close to a final vote on those new gerrymandered district maps, the transparently partisan ones drawn up mid decade by Republicans at the request of Donald Trump attempting to gobble up more seats in Congress. Of course, the the truth of the matter is that today's long awaited result is all but certain. Barring lobotomy on the part of the Republicans or some sudden moral awakening, the GOP map in Texas will pass. But the victory for Democrats today may rest not on a near certain result in Texas, but in the fight and the grit and the awakening and the willingness to do whatever it takes now to save democracy and to be seen doing it. That's why images like this one from yesterday are so powerful. Texas Democr ripping up permission slips which amount to hall passes. They were made compulsory by Texas Republicans just for the privilege of leaving the building. Of course, the reason those passes were deemed necessary, and the reason Texas troopers are following Democratic lawmakers around everywhere they go, including to the grocery store, is because those Democrats made the decision to leave the state to leave Texas to prevent Republicans from having a quorum, a fact that has hung over today's debate watch.
- [02:39]
Ron Reynolds
We weren't asked any questions and or engaged in the process at all.
- [02:45]
Chris Hayes
You left 17 to 18 days.
- [02:47]
Ron Reynolds
You could have sat with me. Would you believe it would be a great process to include the public in a way that they could see what's going on? Or do we want to do the things in the cloak of darkness here? Well, you've been gone in the cloak.
- [03:02]
Chris Hayes
Of darkness for 18 days.
- [03:04]
Ron Reynolds
That's not germane. No, it is germane to what she said. I could have public input while you were gone. You prevented this from acting.
- [03:14]
Nick Corasaniti
So.
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Ron Reynolds
You keep interrupting me. The merits of the bill, sir. Merits of the bill.
- [03:19]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
No.
- [03:22]
Eric Swalwell
Members, please try not to talk over one another so everybody can hear your debate.
- [03:28]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Now, the tension wasn't limited to that chamber, the House chamber. Late this afternoon, State Representative Nicole Collier, a major figure in the Democrats resistance to redistricting in Texas, was interrupted while she was on a call with top Democratic leaders, a call organized by the dnc. She says she was told she was committing a felony. Here's that moment. You can see for yourself the conversations.
- [03:52]
Chris Hayes
I've had with Democratic governors throughout this country and all of our Democratic elected officials.
- [03:57]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
I have to leave. They said it's a felony for me to do this. Apparently I can't be on the floor or in the bathroom. Well, you told me I was only allowed to be here in the bathroom. No, hang on. Bye, everybody. I've got to go.
- [04:11]
Ron Reynolds
Hey, that, that's.
- [04:14]
Eric Swalwell
That is outrageous. And first of all, let me tell you something. Representative Collier in the bathroom has more dignity than Donald Trump in the Oval Office.
- [04:22]
Chris Hayes
There you go.
- [04:23]
Eric Swalwell
That is outrageous. What they're trying to do right there is silence. An American leader, silence a black woman. And that is outrageous. And I hope everybody took note of that. The fact that she can't even let her voice be heard is frickin outrageous.
- [04:40]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Cory Booker for the win with. She has more dignity in the bathroom than Donald Trump has in the Oval Office. A moment like that calls to mind something repeated again and again by the lawmakers who made that choice to leave the state. That this is a moment that seems to be lighting a fire, waking people up, something spreading all across our country right now to make people in all 50 states understand that the threats to democracy are real, they're happening right now, and that the pro democracy forces are not going down without a fight, if they go down at all. Just ask California. As early as tomorrow, Democrats in California will move forward with their response to what happened today. Their own redistricting plan. It'll be put on the ballot in front of voters. Unlike that Texas redistricting plan this November. It is no doubt a hardball political move, but it's also coming after and in response to what happened in Texas, Democrats all across the country showing some backbone in the bathroom and beyond is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times political reporter Nick Corsaniti is with us. Also joining us, MSNBC senior political analyst Texas resident Matt Dowd is here, and MSNBC senior political analyst, our friend Alex Wagner's here. Nick, I feel like it's been nine years that we've been talking about Republican efforts to rig the electorate who votes and rig the rules. This is obviously a natural step in that process. But I think you were first on after Georgia passed a voter suppression law predicated on the idea that there was fraud, something that the Republican governor, Republican secretary of state, vouched there wasn't any of. I think one of the Republicans is now a Democrat, the then lieutenant governor, former lieutenant Governor Duncan, how do you assess where Republicans have taken this fight to change the rules?
- [06:45]
Nick Corasaniti
Well, what we've seen with this battle to kind of redraw maps in the middle of the decade is it feels unprecedented. It actually has happened on occasion before back in Texas in 2003. But the breadth and the degree of it and the pure politics of it have kind of been a new step in where partisan warfare is. When this first started a few weeks ago, I did a story with my colleague Shane Goldmacher, and we asked a White House official or an ally of the president's, where do you see this? And they said maximum warfare everywhere, all the time. And they're not hiding that their goal here is politics. They are taking a ruling from the supreme court and from 2019 that said we're not going to be the arbiters of partisan gerrymandering that we're going to gerrymander and we're going to do it politically and we're protected legally. If you look at the debate on the House floor today in Texas, all these lawmakers are saying our goal is to further Republican political performance. So this is kind of taking the confluence of what's happened on the Supreme Court, what's happened with judiciary, what's happened with voting laws across the country, where the parties have gone regarding voting, regarding election. The mistrust and distrust in our very electoral process has kind of really come to a head in what is threatening to become a national war over the redrawing of maps ahead of a midterm election.
- [08:06]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Alex except the maximum warfare is on one side. I mean, there's been such an Extraordinary asymmetry since Donald Trump entered the political arena. And first it was all directed at Republicans. I remember Mitt Romney stomping up and down and drafting op eds. And I agreed with them about how unprecedented it was that Donald Trump wasn't going to release his taxes. That's like 47 rounds ago. The norms are gone. Voters have chosen Donald Trump and his smash mouth politics on the Republican side three times. And Democrats have largely clung to norms and institutions and their values, which is admirable, and that's an important thing. But a different debate in this moment. While Republicans are changing the rules, changing who gets to vote, changing who gets to be represented based on the rigging of the rules in terms of who gets to vote, it feels like something has happened this summer where Democrats seem to be contemplating playing by the new rules. How do you assess their awakening or whatever you want to call it?
- [09:11]
Alex Wagner
Well, I mean, I think first of all, we need to separate. Just even on the redistricting fight, like since 2010, the Republicans have been on the war path in a way that the Democrats never were in terms of redistricting, chicanery and really, you know, redrawing congressional maps for explicitly partisan gain. This is obviously a completely different level. And it represents states effectively kowtowing to the federal government. I mean, Donald Trump has now succeeded in co opting the power of the legislative branch. Congress is entirely in his pocket to some degree. The judicial branch, if you look at how the Supreme Court is ruling, and now red states themselves are effectively kneecapping them expressly at the service of the President of the United States. That is a line that we have not crossed as a democracy before. And I don't imagine that the framers of the Constitution ever envisioned that these independent branches, that the balance of power between states and the federal government would be so corrupted as it is today under the watchful eye of Donald Trump. Right. I think Democrats better start reacting, better start ringing the alarm bell, better start making this a national issue. I think what's happening in Texas, even if it isn't serving the ends of a fairer map and a real election in 2026 and a real rebalancing of power in the House of Representatives, has been incred, important because it has made this a national issue. These Democrats, through their bravery and their willingness to do whatever they can to show people what's happening in their home state, have made this part of a national conversation. And I think that's essential in this hour because, Nicole, it is very clear that Trump is going to try and do something to steal the 2026 election, whether through semi official means like asking red states everywhere to redistrict and give him more seats in Congress that are layups to win in novemb or whether he cancels mail in balloting through executive fiat or whether he just militarizes blue states and prevents Democrats from voting. These are all signals, very explicit ones that he is not going to have a free and fair election in the midterms. And that is something that everybody should be paying attention to.
- [11:23]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Matt Dowd it is not in the DNA of the Democratic party and that's a good thing to change the rules, to rig the elections and to abandon the norms. However, that is now not where the energy or the passions of the Democratic voters or the pro democracy voters, I would broaden it out beyond registered Democrats. That's not where the voters are. They see a frantic fight to save and preserve what's left of our democracy and they would like to see this fight in their leaders. What do you think the bus make of today's events and where do you think we're heading home?
- [12:04]
Chris Hayes
Well Nicole, I think you make a very good point. I mean the problem I believe in the I believe in the ideal of independent redistricting commissions. I think they're good for the country. I think they create more swing districts. I think they empower general election voters. I think they create an opportunity in legislative bodies, whether it's in Washington or in states to be more consensus building and compromise. And when you have gerrymanning and sort of stark gerrymandering like what's going on in Texas, that ideal is gone. That ideal is completely gone. And you can't have a situation where the good folks in Michigan have an independent redistricting board and the good folks in California have an independent restricting board and they're doing the right thing in blue states but all the red states are creating this power surge that's that doesn't allow an opportunity to have a representative democracy. And it's to me it's a lot like nuclear proliferation in the course of this. And you can't if the Soviet Union is building thousands and thousands and thousands of nuclear weapons, the United States can't sit there and say well that's a bad thing, that's not good. We're just going to sit back and let them do and let them allow to do whatever they want to do. Because in the end what this is leading to is sort of a mutual assured destruction of our democracy and holding onto your ideals and Watching representative democracy be abandoned isn't a good ideal. I mean, that's the problem, holding on a process ideal. And I think they have a good process ideal. But if you hold on that and watch democracy get flushed down the toilet, then you've abandoned the broad ideal of democracy in this. And I think the short, we have a huge short term problem. To me, the era of bipartisanship is dead. This is official. It's dead. The era of Republicans doing everything and anything possible to achieve power is here. And if Democrats sit there and say, oh man, remember the good old days of bipartisanship and can't we do that and all that? We're not working with an equal partner anymore and the Democrats aren't working with an equal partner in this anymore. And so they have to face that reality. But I would say, Nicole, I want to add something as I listen to this. It's not only facing that reality in Washington, but it's facing that reality in state by state by state by state. And governors and legislators have to realize the idea of like we do it right in Michigan or we do it right in Pennsylvania. Are we doing the right thing here? Washington is out of control, that the power now has to be exerted at the state level and in order to make Washington better. And that's the situation that we're in if we want to preserve democracy, community.
- [14:48]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
And Matt, let me just follow up. I mean, there is in everything everyone has said such reluctance to embrace the stronger medicine, the sharper tools to protect democracy. It strikes me that that had better change and that had better change quickly because voters smell fear in the eyes and in the moves of politicians.
- [15:11]
Chris Hayes
Well, this is, this is political warfare. I mean, we're in political warfare that our democracy is at stake in this. And it's. If the Republicans are showing up with machine guns and Democrats are like, we shouldn't be using machine guns. We're supposed to just be using bows and arrows. Bows and arrows is how we always done it. And why aren't we using bows and arrows? That's the problem in a power struggle. And politics is always about power and a power struggle. On how do you achieve that in order to accomplish good ends is obviously the goal in it, in this. But in a power struggle, you have to, you can't just seed territory based on ideals in this and think the other side is going to come to their senses. I think Joe Biden for a long period of time thought that the Republicans would come to their senses. I think Barack Obama for a long period of Time thought Republicans would come to their senses. I think Merrick Garland acted as if Republicans were going to come to their senses. We have 20 plus years that the Republicans are not going to come to their sentences. And so when you're in that environment, you have to realize we don't have a willing partner. We don't have a moral partner and we're going to have to do what's in the best interest of our democracy.
- [16:22]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Nick, let me bring you in on what's happening on the screen. This is the final point where they're debating before the final vote here we're going to be joined by a Democratic member of the Texas state legislature. What is your sense sort of in a mechanical level having followed all of these state by state efforts as long as you have for what will happen next? Is the action in California the next chapter here?
- [16:52]
Nick Corasaniti
Chairman Well, I think it is from a Democratic point of view. But one thing that I think is really important for everyone to understand is that California is not a pay to complete. This is not immediately going to happen. If Texas passes its maps as it looks like it's going to do, he made it here in the House and then, you know, eventually go to the Senate and then Abbott's desk, it's not automatically going to turn five seats blue in California. They still have to vote and voters across all parties hate gerrymandering. It's a bit of a different difficult thing to poll given the questions, but they don't like it. So California will be up next, but this is going to spill out elsewhere. So if California does go ahead and it'll be a prolonged process, Republicans have already indicated that they want to ask process Indiana and Missouri and possibly Florida. Governor DeSantis just a few hours ago indicated his interest in some kind of districting. So that'll be more seats on the Republican side, not to mention Ohio, a deeply Republican state, has to be district due to a failure in in 2021 to get bipartisan support for their maps. And they've threatened to go as nuclear as a 13, 2 delegation there, which would be a flip of three seats. So there's a lot more that's going to come and there's a lot more action that Republicans can take as opposed to Democrats just due to the power imbalance in state legislatures and state houses across the country.
- [18:11]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Everyone sticks around. There's a lot more on this story. Alex, did I cut you off?
- [18:17]
Chris Hayes
That is simply no.
- [18:19]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Oh, oh, I thought I heard you. There's a lot more on this at this hour. The Texas House is barreling toward this final vote, a map that would add five Republican seats, as everyone has indicated. We will be joined by a Texas Democrat who will talk us through the sights and sounds of what we're watching unfold on our screens. Plus, the Democratic governor of California isn't just taking on Donald Trump and Republicans when it comes to redistricting. He's taking the fight online to a place where Donald Trump understands it really, really well and clearly how Gavin Newsom Social media is catching fire, galvanizing Democrats and triggering Donald Trump. And later in the broadcast, quote, I work so hard for the president and party. That quote was not from an RNC staffer or a West Wing staffer or anyone that worked for Donald Trump anywhere. It was from then Fox News anchor Jeanine Pirro a stunning trove of text messages written by the folks themselves and released in the wake of a multimillion dollar settlement, showing again just how cozy that's even the right word for it at this point. Fox News has become with Donald Trump. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [19:41]
Nicole Wallace
MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Each week Nicole speaks with some of the people who inspire her the most. This week she sits down with podcaster John Lovett. The more you can make that big.
- [19:57]
Nick Corasaniti
Group of pro democracy Americans feel like.
- [19:59]
Chris Hayes
They'Re part of one big movement, the.
- [20:01]
Nick Corasaniti
More powerful that gets and the more success we'll have.
- [20:04]
Nicole Wallace
The best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.
- [20:11]
Chris Hayes
Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? China expert Bill Bishop. They position themselves as look, we are the country that cares about the most important existential issue most countries have, which is climate change. You know, we are the ones who are now in a position to help you deliver the goods and fix that. And it is very useful on several levels for them. It's also very useful in their ongoing long term competition with the U.S. that's this Week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now.
- [20:38]
Nicole Wallace
And follow start your day with the MSNBC Daily newsletter. Sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [20:56]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Joining our coverage is Texas State Representative Ron Reynolds. Nick, Matt and Alex are also still with us. Representative Reynolds, what is your wish and the wish of the Texas Democrats to have happen next?
- [21:13]
Ron Reynolds
Well, first of all, it's great to be on with you. My wish, first of all, is that this bill would die that is about to unfortunately pass. This is a racial gerrymander that's going to set back African Americans and Hispanics in this state pre voting rights days. It breaks my heart as a Texan, as someone who loves our state. I do not love the way that they're taking us back to dark days of this country. What I would love more than anything next is for California voters to level set and pass that constitutional amendment that Gavin Newsom and those Democrats are proposing for five Democrat seats. We have to fight five with fire. We can't keep bringing knives to gunfights, tying our hands behind our back while President Trump is not playing by the rules and doing everything he can to rig the system. So my wish is that more Democrats will grow a backbone and fight just like the Texas Democrats did by breaking form, raising the awareness, and not just stop in California, because they're not stopping in Texas. They're going to Indiana and other states. We need to make sure that blue states respond. So we have to fight fire with fire. And it is time for Democrats to stand up to fight to preserve our democracy.
- [22:25]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Representative Reynolds, I'm going to bring my colleague Alex Wagner in with a question for you.
- [22:31]
Alex Wagner
Thanks, Nicole. Representative Reynolds, thanks for taking the time in what is just an extraordinary series of circumstances for you guys. I wonder if Democrats in the State House are at all following up on some theories posted in the legal community that this special session may not even be legal for Governor Abbott to call. I mean, I think, I believe, I'm not an expert in any of this, but he's only allowed to call a special session under extraordinary occasion, and it doesn't seem like he meets that threshold at all. Could this all be moot if this is, if this is. You know, if you guys make the case that this special session isn't even legal under the Texas rules. Have you guys discussed that? Is that any line of argument or debate within the, within the party?
- [23:15]
Ron Reynolds
The rules are the Constitution allows for the governor to call a special session. He is the sole discretion to do that. We're looking at every single legal remedy available. We have some of the best legal minds and attorneys that you can get, specializing in voting rights and gerrymandering and civil rights and constitutional rights. So we're looking at every single thing. I can tell you that we're working right now. We were on the floor building a strong record to be able to file injunctive relief in the Court to stop this racial gerrymander. This bill violates the Voting Rights act of 1965 that was just passed 60 years ago by former president from Texas, Lyndon Baines Johnson. So we believe that this racial gerrymander violates section 2 of the Voting Rights Act. But we're also looking at other things as well. So, yes, everything's on the table. We're going to vigorously pursue every legal remedy to stop this racial gerrymander, this Trump Texas takeover. He can't win with his policies, so he's trying to rig the system to keep a slim majority of the House so he can keep passing bills to benefit the billionaires at the expense of the working families, minorities and LGBTQ everyone else that he's trying to assault. That is what we're. That's what is at stake. The stakes couldn't be higher because the balance of power for the midterms could come down to Texas and California and some other states. So, yes, we're going to do everything we can to stop this assault on our democracy.
- [24:50]
Alex Wagner
Do you. Representative, do you, Reynolds, do you think that this is going to end up at the Supreme Court? We know that John Roberts loves to dismantle the VRA piece by piece. And I wonder what your level of optimism, optimism is about this going to the highest court of the land, given in the makeup of the bench.
- [25:07]
Ron Reynolds
I'm very cautious based on recent rulings of the Supreme Court. But I am feeling a little bit better because of recent rulings from the Fifth Circuit, one of the most conservative jurisdictions in the country that has made some really strong rulings in Mississippi and Louisiana. And I'm very encouraged by that. But we know that this court is very conservative leaning and this court has made unprecedented rulings like gutting Roe vs. Wade, giving President Trump basically carte blanche immunity for acts, official acts, almost king like status. So this court, nothing they does surprises me. But I hope that they will not further gut one of the most fundamental constitutional bills that's ever passed in the Voting Rights act of 1965 that really erased Jim Crow in this country. So if they do that, they're really, really setting this country back and trampling upon the rights of African Americans and other minorities. So I hope and pray that this Supreme Court does not do that. But based on their current and recent rulings, it would definitely gives me pause. I don't put a whole lot of stock into their rulings of late.
- [26:25]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Representative Reynolds. What? Can you just take us inside? What it is like to need a permission slip to leave the chamber to have members locked in, to have threats of arrest. I mean, what have the last few days and weeks been like for you and your colleagues, Nicole?
- [26:44]
Ron Reynolds
It has been a living nightmare. And that is not a hyperbolic statement where I'm one of 13 Democrats that the Texas attorney general, who is should be behind bars himself, has filed a petition with the Texas Supreme Court to have me and 12 other of my colleagues removed from office. We have $500 a day fines. We have threats of arrest. We have the United States Senator John Cornyn, asking the Justice Department to hunt us down. This is a living nightmare. And the worst part was one of my colleagues, the former chair of the Texas Legislative Black Caucus, where I had the pleasure of serving as chair after she did, was literally because she refused to sign this permission slip, was literally locked up in the House chamber and couldn't leave. This is imprisonment as a legislator that's broken no law. This is ridiculous. So this is a nightmare. It is time for the American people to wake up. This is authoritarianism. This is not the America that we love. This is a military state. What we're seeing President Trump do in Washington, D.C. they're bringing it to Texas. So I hope this is a call to action for people to say, enough. This is not the America that we love. This is some dictator country that we rail against. Not a land of democracy where we protect and preserve even the minority party. But they're now trying to lock up members of the legislature. This is ridiculous. We have to get a snip to leave the chambers. We have to be escorted by dps like we're some kind of felons that are going to flee, like we committed some heinous crimes. This is ridiculous. And I hope that people are watching and paying attention and vote each and every one of them out. They're going to have to be accountable to the American people. And I don't think history would judge them well for what they're doing to our democracy.
- [28:37]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Representative Reynolds, thank you on a day like today for taking the time to talk to us. Please keep talking us through this moment. You guys have seen it up close and personal. Thank you for your time today, sir.
- [28:48]
Ron Reynolds
Thank you.
- [28:49]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Matt Dow, this is your state. You worked for a Democrat in the state. That was how you got to know the Republican governor at the time, George W. Bush. What has happened in Texas that the voters settle for men like Ted Cruz who leaves the state in the middle of a crisis and an emergency, leaders who nothing is the answer to what they can do about gun safety after UVALDE I mean, why do Republicans have such a vice grip on the state of Texas?
- [29:20]
Chris Hayes
Well, I mean, great question and I mean, I'll just take people back. I helped elect the last Democratic governor, Ann Richards, and the last Democratic lieutenant governor. Lieutenant governor in Texas, for people to know is an extremely powerful position. He runs the state senate, he's a statewide, he can serve. He doesn't serve at the pleasure of the governor. He's elected separately and all that. And I was actually put on the redistricting group in 1991 by Bob Bullock, who was the Democratic lieutenant governor, to sort of help in the process. And, and then that point in time, 1991, not that long ago, you know, the maps were drawn that they lean Democratic. They weren't overly, but they leaned Democrat because we had a governor speaker and a, and a lieutenant governor. But Bullock went out of his way, as he always did, as well as the other leaders, to sort of invite Republicans in to have be part of the process and help draw the maps. And they understood the struggle and all that, how that would work. And Ann Richards was actually very involved in that process as well in this. And George W. Bush, interestingly enough, when we think back in the days when he got elected and he worked with a Democratic lieutenant governor, he worked with a Democratic speaker of the house while he was governor. And part of his campaign, to Cole, as you recall, part of Bush's campaign was that I want to bring the good things we do in Texas and how we operate in Texas and how we cross party lines and how we come together to solve problems to Washington in the course of it. That seems like so long ago a campaign could be run that in the Republican primary it could. George W. Bush could not win the Republican nomination today. He could not win the Republican nomination today in the course of this. And I think Texas, though, hasn't become more Republican. What's happened is as over time, Republicans feel no sense of accountability because they haven't lost a general election statewide since 1994. And so over that time, even though some elections have been close than others, they feel no sense. They have to be responsive to their voters in the general election. The five or six or seven million people that vote in the general election, they think they only have to be responsive to the small group which is now MAGA base. That's all they have to be responsive to. They get elected in the primary and therefore they can, they can ignore anything that happens in a general election. That's the problem. And it's not only happening in Texas. As you know, it's happening in many other states.
- [31:42]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
And that lack of any direct accountability to the voters is a microcosm for what's happening all over the country. Nick, your reporting has always been important, absolutely essential right now. Thank you for joining us to talk about it. Matt and Alex, stick around. We're going to keep a close eye on what's happening live right now in the Texas House. If there's a vote or any development, we'll bring it to you right away after the break. For us, how California Governor Gavin Newsom thinks it looks when you fight fire with fire. We'll show you next. As the state of California responds to and fights back against the blatant political power grab in Texas with its own redistricting effort, that state's governor Gavin Newsom is fighting for a different kind of power in today's political landscape. Attention. Newsom's press office for the past week and a half has been flooding the zone by flooding social media posts that mimic Donald Trump's style and doing what no Democrat has tried for the last nine years in dealing with Donald Trump. Beating Donald Trump at his own game since Donald Trump posted a fake Time magazine cover of himself as king. Gavin Newsom's team did the same thing. In one post, Gavin Newsom calls MAGA Republicans, quote, snowflakes in all caps. In another, he says this, quote, donald is finished. He is no longer hot. First the hands, so tiny, and now me. Gavin C. Newsom have taken away his step. Many are saying he can't even do the big stairs on Air Force One anymore. Uses the little baby stairs now. Sad. Referring to a picture of Donald Trump alongside Vladimir Putin, he just wrote vaxxed. And Newsom has already captured the visual style of the quintessential Trump post. There's the retweet of buff Gavin Newsom holding an American flag, or maybe the real winner, a portrait of himself surrounded by Kid Rock, Tucker Carlson and Hulk Hogan. Newsom's social media campaign is clearly getting under the skin of many on the right.
- [33:59]
Chris Hayes
I don't know what he's trying to do, but it comes across as childish. And what are you're the governor of the biggest state in the union.
- [34:07]
Nicole Wallace
What are you doing?
- [34:09]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
This is a sitting governor. You know, those are congress people. And it feels like we're watching a summer camp skit. We're watching slam poetry. We're watching these attention seekers that are just so wrapped up in clickbait and they are supposed to be governing. Hypocrisy is dying. A sad and tragic death right now, say the anchors from the network that paid $800 million for their lies. Now, if the hypocrisy in all this isn't clear enough, if it doesn't smack you on the side of the head, here's what podcaster and radio host Charlamagne tha God had to say about Fox News reaction there.
- [34:49]
Chris Hayes
Have you ever told the 45th and 47th President of the United States of America to stop. Have you ever told the 45th and 47th President of the United States of America that they need to be more serious to act like it's cool when Trump do it, but it's a problem when Gavin does it? Knock it off.
- [35:04]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
It's good for the goose. You know how that goes. Joining our coverage, Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell of California. Matt and Alex are still here as well. Congressman, what do you think about this double standard from Fox and what do you think about what Governor Newsom is doing?
- [35:20]
Eric Swalwell
I freaking love what Governor Newsom is doing because that's what offense looks like. And we don't see enough Democrats, frankly, doing that. We have to be in more spaces, more places. And always on to voters means always honest. And Donald Trump, for all of his warts and all of his corruption and incompetency, he's always on. And so when he makes a mistake, he is on an hour later, two hours later, three hours later, and it diminishes how the public views him. If we were always on with our ideas and our values, it will project authenticity and who we really are. And so you're seeing Governor Newsom, I think, most effectively do that. And I also like Nicole, that he's on offense. You have to either put Donald Trump on his heels or he's going to put the most vulnerable in our community on theirs. And that's what this move is. And more Democrats, particularly governors, should model this and step up.
- [36:21]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
I agree with you. I have to ask you this, though. Like, how did it take nine years to decide to simply try, like, mocking him? I mean, south park figured it out. Gavin Newsom figured it out. But it's still a trickle compared to the fire hose from the other side.
- [36:37]
Eric Swalwell
It's our strength and our weakness that we stand on virtue and fight many of these fights with one hand tied behind our back. And often it's the upper hand. And I'm tired of being told when they go low, we go high. The way I see it, when they go low, we should bury their ideas below the Capitol. That's the only way we're going to protect the most vulnerable. Governor Newsom gets that. And yes, we can talk about, and there's great points to be made about how long it's taken us, but he's meeting the moment now, and it's just a matter of do others join him as he does?
- [37:14]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
Alex, the piece of this that is likely to trigger Trump the most is that it's funny and that it's sticky and that it'll get attention and that even his favorite network anchors at his favorite network are talking about it over on Fox News. Your thoughts?
- [37:33]
Alex Wagner
I mean, talk about snowflakes. Talk about owning the libs. I mean, here it is amazing that a party founded largely like in service of melting the snowflakes is melting snow quickly when one person actually lays a, you know, like manages to land one on Trump. And that would be Gavin Newsom. I mean, I will just say for the record, I have never wanted a piece of campaign merch as badly as I want that laying of the hands on Newsom with Hulk Hogan and Tucker Carlson and Kid Rock. I think he's having a great time doing this, Nicole. And I think, you know, not only is it time to sort of rethink the notion of self serious liberalism, and I'm not going to malign Democrats for being serious about it because we're talking about very, very grave issues and very, very real consequences for a number of people. Right? That's serious stuff. But the message is delivered through a joyful warrior, and I think that's really important. Humor, as you point out, is Trump's kryptonite, cultural currency is what I think has made the manosphere so popular, so prevalent, so much of a powerful sort of voting bloc, if you will, because it was rooted in culture. And this is going viral. And being memeable is part of a necessary strategy to succeed in being rooted in culture. So I think what Newsom is doing is broadly in service of Democratic goals. The other thing I'll say is Trump has rendered so many important concepts meaningless by taking what is really legitimate criticism about his corruption and his authoritarian tendencies and throwing it back at his critics. Right? And that's changed the way Democrats can even describe what's happening to us as a country. This is an opportunity for Democrats to take back one of Trump's biggest and maybe only selling points, which is his unvarnished real talk. The fact that a Democrat can successfully mimic that really takes that arrow out of Trump's quiver. I think in the last couple days, Trump has stops, has ceased tweeting in all caps. That is indicative of a man who upon self reflection is like, oh, maybe this doesn't have the same resonance as it used to. And that to me is really telling about what a winning strategy this is on the part of the California governor.
- [39:52]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
It's such an important point about culture. I have to sneak in a break, but I want to press all of you on this because it feels like not only were Democrats, to quote you, congressmen, fighting with one hand behind their back, but they were almost, you know, at the racetrack while Trump was in, you know, the mud pit. And I want to ask you if you think there is sort of a face off right now at this moment with Donald Trump so weak in the polls on every issue, including his strongest ones, the economy and immigration, that puts some wind at the back of Democrats. Everyone sticks around. We'll have that conversation next.
- [40:29]
Nicole Wallace
Saturday, October 11th. From New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steen, Chris Hayes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this happening? Happening, Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [41:32]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
We're all back. Matt Doubt everything. I know about meditation. I learned from the app on my phone. But I do know that the only way out is through. And so let me take everybody through the Kid Rock fight with Gavin Newsom. So on Monday, Kid Rock. So Kid Rock is invoked because Gavin Newsom tweets this picture out. It's on your screen. If you're in your car. It says Kid Rock wants you to support Gavin Newsom. Kid Rock wrote back about Deez nuts, phonetically speaking, I guess. Here it is on your screen again if you're in your car. The only support Gavin Newsom will ever get out of me is from D E E Z N U D Kid Rock. Classy, dude. But we're not going to be classy because Gavin Newsom got the last word on this one. He writes, quote, I hate Kid Rock. And then he says, does Anyone notice that since I said I hate Kid Rock, he's no longer hot? I mean, again, I'm not endorsing or criticizing the strategy, but back to my meditation app. The only way out is through, and you have to go through Kid Rock and deez nuts. I mean, here we are, Matt Dowd. But the only way out is to drag Kid Rock down with us. What do you think?
- [42:42]
Chris Hayes
I have to say I love what Gavin Newsom is doing for many different reasons. In the course of this is, first of all, that the Fox News and the Republicans don't understand what's going on. They can't get a handle on one hand.
- [42:55]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
That's my favorite part of the story. They're like, this isn't classy. I'm like, you think you don't think it's classy? Under a rock.
- [43:05]
Chris Hayes
They simultaneously say, this isn't classy. This isn't horrible. He's a governor. He should be more respectful. They say that. Then the next thing they say is he's copying Donald Trump. They say those two things simultaneously and they don't understand. It's a complete parody. It's complete parody of that and of them and of Donald Trump in this. And I, you know, Nicole, you remember in 2004, I just as we're having this conversation, when we had a press briefing and the press came over, you know, they wanted like, who was going to win, who was going to lose. And I said at that briefing, I can give you a bunch of polls and all that, but just do one thing. Go to our, come to our campaign and go to the Kerry campaign. And who's ever having the most fun is going to win. Who's ever having the most fun? And Democrats have forgotten that. Democrats have. They take, one of the great things Democrats do is they take policy and politics very seriously. But sometimes they take themselves too seriously. They don't understand that voters want to laugh at this. And if you're laughing at a politician, you're winning. If you can get voters to laugh at somebody else, you're winning in the courses. And that's, I think, the cultural moment that we're in is how do you relate to where people are? It gets overly serious. And I understand policy matters and all that kind of stuff matters, but you can't take yourself so seriously that and you be in your head. And I think too often what your meditation does is how do you get out of your head and into your heart and into your gut? And Democrats have to spend a lot more time as David Newsom is getting into his gut and getting into his heart and presenting a campaign and presenting issues that come from the heart and the gut and out of their head.
- [44:48]
Nicole Wallace (Anchor)
It's also like just a feat and an accomplishment to turn the conversation where you have to read these things on the air because this is the exchange, right? I mean, we can laugh. I'm sweating just a little bit. But it's, you know, I mean, I think Sarah Palin was friends with Kid Rock, been around a long time. Like it's about time someone, you know, spoke to him in language he understands. Congressman Eric Swalwell, I'm sorry. Maybe I don't know. Sorry, not sorry. Matt Dowd, Alex Wagner, thank you so much for having this conversation, the whole thing with us. One more break. We'll be right back. A rather jarring moment in the nation's capital today when Vice President J.D. vance, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and White Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller walked into a bar. I'm just kidding. They weren't in a bar. They went to visit the National Guard troops stationed at Union station in Washington, D.C. today, attempting to capitalize with the photo op on the show of force the Trump administration has brought to the nation's capital. But whatever they said was hard to hear over the decidedly mixed reaction they received, including more than a few loud jeers from protesters in the station. Here they are at Shake Shack, the crime hub of the city. I'm sure buying burgers for the troops and thanking them for, quote, actually keeping this place safe, end quote. Again, this place is Shake Shack at Union Station. We'll keep you updated on any more public reaction to the DC Takeover. Coming up next for us, a judge calling out the Trump administration for creating a diversion to avoid accountability in the Jeffrey Epstein case. We'll bring you that news after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [46:41]
Nicole Wallace
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- [47:53]
Nicole Wallace
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