“There will be consequences”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: “There will be consequences”
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Date: December 16, 2025

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Overview

This episode revolves around two major news stories:

1. The ongoing controversy over the U.S. military’s boat strikes in the Caribbean, the lack of public transparency regarding video evidence, and the investigation of Senator Mark Kelly for reminding military personnel to obey only legal orders.
2. The aftermath and response to the mass shooting at Brown University, with a focus on the law enforcement investigation, public anxieties about campus safety, and broader political and cultural ramifications.

Nicolle Wallace and her guests—political figures, legal analysts, and journalists—offer in-depth analysis on these complex stories, highlighting government transparency issues, escalating political intimidation, and the current American climate of violence and political division.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Caribbean Boat Strikes and the Withholding of Evidence

• Defense Secretary’s Statement
  [00:00–01:14]
  Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth announces that the unedited video footage from the September 2nd boat strike (which included a controversial follow-up strike on shipwrecked survivors) will be shown only to members of the House and Senate Armed Services Committees—not to the public or the rest of Congress.

  • Contradictions and Opacity:
    Nicolle Wallace points out the contradiction in denying public access while escalating military actions: "It's a tangled knot really, of contradictions in desperate need of unraveling."
    [01:14]

  • Public and Congressional Exclusion:
    Only select committee members will view the full video, while new assaults continue: “The total number of people killed in the midst of this ongoing military campaign now stands at 95.”
    [01:14–02:20]

• War Crime Allegations and Policy Ambiguity

  • The second strike on survivors is alleged by some (both Democrats and Republicans) to amount to a war crime.
  • The Trump administration denies these strikes are part of a regime change in Venezuela, but internal commentary (by Chief of Staff Susie Wiles) suggests otherwise.

• Investigation into Senator Mark Kelly

  • The Defense Department is investigating Senator Mark Kelly after he reminded service members to refuse illegal orders.

  • In a notable moment, Kelly asserts: "I'm not going to stop doing my job because Donald Trump said I should." [04:30]

  • Analyst Tom Nichols frames this as “all about escalation and intimidation.” [04:26]

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2. Brown University Shooting: Law Enforcement and Community Response

• Press Conference Coverage
  [05:05–21:33]
  The show carries the live press briefing from Providence, including remarks from the Mayor, Police Chief Colonel Oscar Perez, FBI, Rhode Island Attorney General Peter Narona, Governor Dan McKee, and Brown University President Christina Paxson.

  • Video Evidence Plea:
    Authorities release enhanced videos and urge the public to examine surveillance footage, focusing on movement patterns to help identify the suspect.
    "We're looking for a moment that is shorter than somebody taking a breath. It's incredible hard work..." – Chief Oscar Perez [07:21]

  • Public Tips Crucial:
    “We have been receiving hundreds of tips. However, we're about close to 200 actionable tips that we still conduct investigations on, which is incredible and is important." – Chief Oscar Perez [07:21]

  • Safety Measures and Anxiety:
    Updates detail the increased police presence at schools, mental health initiatives, and the community's emotional toll, with poignant stories of teachers and students supporting each other.
    “Our educators…are being asked to go to school right now…putting on a strong face for the sake of others.” – Mayor of Providence [14:24]

  • Health Status of Shooting Survivors:
    Seven remain hospitalized (one critical, five critical but stable, one stable), one discharged. [17:49]

  • Ongoing Investigation Details:

    • Suspect described as a "person of interest" (not definitively identified as the shooter yet).
    • Evidence suggests the suspect surveilled (“cased out”) the area the morning of the attack. [18:46–20:03]
    • No apparent connection to an unrelated shooting of an MIT professor. [19:35]

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3. Expert Analysis: Community Role in Criminal Investigations

• National security analyst Michael Feinberg emphasizes the essential role of public cooperation in solving complex cases:

  “A much greater percentage of cases than people realize actually do depend on public tips. … The fact that they're asking for this sort of help doesn't actually shake my confidence in them.”
  [22:17] – Michael Feinberg

• On parental anxiety and campus safety:

  "Shootings are no longer an anomaly...that fear and suspicion is totally natural...Until we know a motivation, until we get some sort of manifesto...it's impossible to say that it's not going to happen again."
  [24:23] – Michael Feinberg

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4. Transparency, Legal Authority, & Political Intimidation

• Senator Dick Durbin's Perspective
  [28:35–32:54]
  Senator Durbin criticizes the selective secrecy over the boat strike video, calling it “just unacceptable”:

  “We want to do it the legal way, the right way, and we want to do it with the kind of reputation the United States has earned over the years."
  [28:35] – Durbin

  • Durbin raises constitutional concerns about the Trump administration's approach, drawing historical parallels to My Lai and questioning the real motives behind possible regime change in Venezuela.

  • Durbin calls out the hypocrisy of pardoning foreign drug kingpins amid the supposed war on drugs:

    “President Trump, in the midst of this war against drugs, ends up pardoning [the president of Honduras]...how is that a consistent message to the rest of the world about how serious we are?”
    [32:11] – Durbin

• Investigation of Senator Mark Kelly

  • Lt. Col. Dan Maurer describes the investigation as “headed nowhere good,” characterizing it as tyrannical and a chilling message to critics:

    “If you're going to do it to a sitting senator, then you could do it to anybody.”
    [33:24] – Maurer

  • Tom Nichols reinforces that the attacks on Kelly are about sending a signal of intimidation:

    “It's meant to basically harass...this is has a chilling effect not just on trying to suppress Senator Kelly, but...to anybody in military life...We can reach out...if you criticize this president.”
    [35:50] – Nichols

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5. Debate on Policy Rationale and Legal Justification

• Tom Nichols and Dan Maurer sharply question the rationale for the strikes and the administration’s refusal to be transparent with Congress and the public.

  “Hegseth and some folks at the White House [are] playing war because it makes no sense...They just won't give an answer...Their answer is, well, we can't show you classified films. That's not the question they were asked.”
  [37:39–39:21] – Nichols

  • On the legality of the second strike:

    “There is no legal authority to do that, period...It's use of deadly force without due process to kill people as punishment for what they're allegedly doing. That's a crime. That's murder. Under our own law...an extrajudicial killing under international human rights law.”
    [39:40–41:45] – Maurer

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6. Political and Cultural Fallout: Trump’s Comments on Tragedies

• Coverage shifts to the reaction to Donald Trump's comments about the murder of Rob Reiner and his wife, with widespread condemnation from both sides.

  • Jimmy Kimmel’s Response:

    “Just when you think he can't go any lower, he somehow finds a way...”
    [42:58] – Kimmel (as recapped by Wallace)

  • Michelle Obama’s Rebuke:

    “What they have always been are passionate people. In a time when there's not a lot of courage going on."
    [44:20] – Michelle Obama

  • Media Analysis:

    • Michel Norris: “For a president to say something like this was just like taking an open can of salt and pouring it onto a communal wound.” [45:22]
    • Angelo Carazone points out: growing condemnation from Trump’s own supporters weakens his political power.

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7. Concluding Reflections: Mobilizing the Public

• Comedian Leslie Jones shares thoughts on public complacency and the potential for collective action:

  “I don't know why we're scared of this guy. We the people. ... We can control this narrative. We are just too scared and complacent to do it.”
  [50:16] – Leslie Jones

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Nicolle Wallace:
  “It’s a tangled knot really, of contradictions in desperate need of unraveling.” [01:14]

• Senator Mark Kelly:
  "I'm not going to back off. I'm not going to stop doing my job because Donald Trump said I should." [04:30]

• Chief Oscar Perez:
  “We're looking for a moment that is shorter than somebody taking a breath. It's incredible hard work to do that.” [07:21]

• Michael Feinberg:
  “The fact that they're asking for this sort of help doesn't actually shake my confidence in them.” [22:17]

• Senator Dick Durbin:
  “This notion that the Secretary of Defense is going to pick and choose those who see the evidence of this war is just unacceptable.” [28:35]

• Dan Maurer:
  “By investigating him...what clear example do you need of...tyrannical, unmoored, unlawful behavior from the administration?” [33:24]

• Tom Nichols:
  “It's meant to basically harass...and it has a chilling effect...on anybody in military life.” [35:50]

• Michelle Obama:
  “What they have always been are passionate people. In a time when there's not a lot of courage going on.” [44:20]

• Leslie Jones:
  “We can control this narrative. We are just too scared and complacent to do it.” [50:16]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [00:00–04:51] Boat Strikes Controversy & Senator Kelly Investigation
• [05:05–21:33] Brown University Shooting Press Briefing and Q&A
• [22:17–26:37] Expert Analysis on Public Role and Campus Safety
• [28:35–32:54] Senator Dick Durbin on Secrecy & Regime Change Concerns
• [33:24–41:45] Legal/Ethical Review of Senator Kelly Investigation & Boat Strikes
• [42:58–47:45] Trump Comments on Reiner Murders & Michelle Obama’s Rebuke
• [50:16–51:24] Leslie Jones on Collective Action

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Conclusion

The episode offers a sobering snapshot of American politics in crisis—marked by escalating state secrecy, political intimidation, tragedy, and fracturing public confidence. It highlights not only ongoing and unresolved questions about the legality of military actions but also the deepening anxieties over safety, leadership, and the future of civic engagement. The call for transparency, accountability, and the power of collective action resonates throughout, framed by voices both in power and on the ground.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

MS now presents season two of the Blueprint hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 All episodes available now. So we're proud of what we're doing, able to lay it out very directly to these senators and soon to the House. But it's all classified. We can't talk about it now. We're also going to Tomorrow allow the HASC and SASK to see the unedited video of the September 2nd alongside with Admiral Bradley, who has done a fantastic job, has made all the right calls and we're glad he'll be there to do it. But in keeping with long standing Department of War policy, Department of Defense policy, of course, we're going to release a top secret, full, unedited video of that to the general public. Haskins, Sask and appropriate committees will see it, but not the general public.

No, he just does that before he goes on Fox and Friends. Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in New York. Before we address the substance of what Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth just said there, we want to let you know that we are monitoring a news conference on the shooting at Brown University. It begins in a moment. We'll bring it to you when it gets underway. As for what Pete Hegseth was saying, it's a tangled knot really, of contradictions in desperate need of unraveling. It starts with what Defense Secretary Hegseth just said before he walked away without fielding any questions in the midst of a briefing of lawmakers on boat strikes in the Caribbean earlier today. As you heard, there does not appear to be any plan, at least right now, to allow the American people to watch with their own eyes what has been done in our names as Americans. In fact, we learned today that only members of the House and Senate Armed Services Committee will be allowed to view the full unedited version of the video of that September 2 strike on alleged drug smugglers and survivors of the first strike that'll happen tomorrow, including that infamous now follow up strike on those shipwrecked survivors. Some people, Democrats and Republicans, have suggested that that second strike amounts to a war crime. Other than those two committees and their members, that video remains shielded from the public and the rest of Congress. This is a reality that clashes with another new brand new Footage of a series of new attacks. According to US Southern Command, the military hit three more boats yesterday and killed eight people suspected of carrying drugs in international waters. The total number of people killed in the midst of this ongoing military campaign now stands at 95. In the same way that the unedited video is being shielded from the American people, for that matter, the majority of the members of Congress, so too perhaps is the reason or the purpose or the policy aim undergirding these strikes in the first place or the legal rationale that protects the men and women of our military from the get go. The Trump administration has denied up and down that what it is doing in the Caribbean has anything to do with regime change in Venezuela. And yet Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, when she was asked about it by Vanity Fair reporter Chris Whipple, suggested Trump, quote, wants to keep blowing up boats until the president of Venezuela, Nicolas Maduro, quote, cry's uncle, end quote. So what are we doing? What is the country doing? Well, here's something they are doing. They are investigating Senator Mark Kelly. The Defense Department today confirmed that it is escalating a review of Senator Mark Kelly, a decorated Navy fighter pilot and astronaut, to what is called a command investigation over that video that he made featuring a number of Democrats simply reminding men and women of the military of their obligation to refuse any order that is illegal. Late this afternoon, two sources familiar with the matter confirmed to msnow that Senator Kelly and Hegseth actually got into a back and forth during this morning's classified briefing on the topic of legal versus illegal orders. Before that, though, Senator Kelly had this to say on Morning Joe.

[Tom Nichols]

This is all about escalation and intimidation.

[Nicole Wallace]

But in this case, they got the wrong guy. I'm not going to back off. I'm not going to stop doing my job because Donald Trump said I should.

[Tom Nichols]

Be hanged and executed. And Hegseth says, you know, there's going to be an investigation under the Uniform.

[Nicole Wallace]

Code of Military justice for, by the.

[Tom Nichols]

Way, saying what is in the ucmj.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're going to have full coverage of the developments of the Trump administration's investigation into Senator Kelly, their ongoing strikes in the Caribbean. We want to show you though, what is happening up in Providence, Rhode Island. Let's listen.

[Mayor of Providence]

On the press distribution list to be advised of future announcements. At this time, I'll introduce Providence Police Chief Colonel Oscar Perez.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Thank you, Mayor. As the mayor stated, we're about to show you a video if we can have the IT officer.

[Nicole Wallace]

Pay.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Thank you, Joe. So, as the mayor stated, if you don't have these videos, please let us know. And the reason we have shown these videos, there's a purpose, right? So as you can see, they're enhanced photos. There's enhanced video footage. And so we're asking the public to ensure that they can see them. They can see here that you want to focus on the body movements, the way the person moved their arms, the body posture, the way they carry their weight. I think those are important movement patterns that may help you identify this individual, which is extremely important. Another thing that we're going to ask the public is if you have any type of camera system, including Teslas, in your property. In this video that you just saw behind me, it all comes from the residential block of Waterman Avenue, Power Ice and Hope Street. And it's those residential areas that we're asking the public to look. If you have any camera systems or any Teslas, like I mentioned, that you look at that footage and that you can reach out to us and please provide us anything that you have. And we're asking you to go back at least a week to do that. And the reason for that is because on Saturday night, the date off, we actually learned that this individual was in that neighborhood around 10:30 in the morning. We also know in this profession that many criminals will case out an area weeks and days prior. And so it's important for us to ensure that we can have you look at that and help us. And the reason for that is because our offices, our agents, are looking at terabytes of data, and we're looking for a moment that is shorter than somebody taking a breath. It's incredible hard work to do that. And so we're asking the public to assist us with that. The other thing is the Tip Center. We have been receiving hundreds of tips. However, we're about close to 200 actionable tips that we still conduct investigations on, which is incredible and is important. Again, keep in mind that this video footage is extremely important to us. And one more thing here that as a reminder, please remember that the number that we need you to call is 401-272-3121, as well as the link that the FBI provided, which is FBI.govgov Broad University students, thank you very much.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you, Colonel.

[Mayor of Providence]

Now we'll hear from FBI Special Agent in Charge Ted Docks.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you, Mayor, and good evening. My name is Ted Docks. I'm the Special Agent in Charge of FBI Boston. On the heels of this tragedy, the strength and resilience of the people of Providence is a powerful reminder of the bonds that Unite us. The men and women of the FBI, along with the law enforcement team standing before you, carry the victims with us as we work around the clock to bring the individual responsible for their injuries and deaths to justice. Today, the FBI is working with Brown University to do everything we can to provide services to those impacted by this horrific shooting. The FBI has almost 30 victim specialists, special agents and analysts from all over the country who are here in Providence to support our survivors, the victims and their loved ones. The FBI Victim Services Response Team is one of the many specialized FBI assets that have been deployed here to assist. The toll of this type of tragedy takes on victims and their families is immeasurable, and we ask everyone to respect their privacy at this difficult time.

[Mayor of Providence]

Thank you. Thank you, Special Agent. Next, Attorney General Peter Narona.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you, Mayor. I don't have a lot to add other than that. From my perspective, I think the investigation in a case like this, which is a challenging one, is going really well. The on the third floor of this building, there are dozens of agents, detectives, led by Providence police, prosecutors from my office working to put together. And what you're seeing is just a portion of what they're working on right now. So they are, literally, because I have seen at least part of it. The shift changes late at night. I think Rhode Islanders should take confidence in their work. They are veterans of what they do. They're smart, they're professional, and they're getting the resources from the mayor and the governor that they need the state police as well to get this job done. And I'm confident they're going to be able to do that. Just need a little bit of patience, as hard as it is to say that in this really horrible context. Thank you.

[Mayor of Providence]

Thank you, General. Governor Dan McKee for an update now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thanks, Mayor. And right off the top, we're just making sure that we're. The state is supporting Providence, Brown University, and then working with the FBI as well as our state police and the attorney general to continue to provide information to the people in the state of Rhode Island. My information is that recently we, this morning, today, we've met with all the university presidents in the state of Rhode Island.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

We know that we want to start.

[Nicole Wallace]

A working group that will talk about enhancing the safety issues. And you'll see shortly that we'll be doing the same thing in terms of the mental health issues. And I think that's important. As I'm out and about, we're hearing a great deal of anxiety coming from families and students and the general public. And that's One of the reasons why our state police has supported the Providence schools with presence as school begins and school ends in support of the mayor.

[Governor Dan McKee]

And his efforts to support the school.

[Mayor of Providence]

Thank you, Governor. We're also joined tonight by Brown University president Christina Paxson.

[Nicole Wallace]

Thank you, Mayor. I want to begin by thanking the many law enforcement agencies who continue to work around the clock on this case. It's very impressive. I also want to thank the mayor and the governor for their continued support. The primary point that I wanted to address before we get to questions is, is that Brown is deeply committed to the safety and security and well being of our community. And I've been deeply saddened to see people questioning that. We understand that as time goes on, there is maybe a natural instinct to assign responsibility for a tragic event like this. Anxiety and fear is very natural, but the shooter is responsible. Horrific gun violence took the lives of these students and hospitalized others. And it's deeply sad and tragic that schools across the country are targets of violence. Brown is no exception. We are cooperating fully with law enforcement, and again, we thank the multiple agencies that have been working so hard day and night with increased patrols to keep our campus safe and to investigate this horrific shooting. Thank you.

[Mayor of Providence]

Thank you, President Paxson. I'll give a couple updates on behalf of the city, and then we'll take your questions first. As has been discussed many times, we continue to have enhanced police presence throughout the city of Providence to help bolster the confidence and provide a sense of additional security to our residents. Today we were aided by neighboring municipalities in Central Falls and North Providence with supplemental officers. We're grateful to our neighbors for sticking up and standing up with Providence. The state police continues to be an incredible partner, and I thank the governor and Colonel Weaver for their partnership. Providence Public schools remain in session. Friday is the last day of school before winter break. Spent some time at our schools again today. As has been the case in the past, the schools in the area of Brown are having regular police presence. And because of the assistance of the Rhode Island State Police, we've been able to provide additional police presence and coverage to other schools in Providence. And we thank them for that. When I was at one of our elementary schools this morning, the faculty were having a brief meeting before kids started to arrive. And in discussion with some of the teachers, I asked how they were doing. One of the teachers said, what I think a lot of us are feeling. She said, you know, it's hard, but I'm putting on a good face for the kids. We need to be here for them. And I think that's how a lot of our residents feel right now, which is that we are taking very tentative steps forward, but we're doing it for one another. And so I do want to thank our educators at this time. They're being asked to go to school right now. Our principals are asked to be going to school right now for the sake of the families and the kids. And at that same school, there was a second grader literally skipping to the front door because he's a second grader and he doesn't know everything that's going on in this scary world right now. And so the strength of the adults has allowed that little kid to skip to school this morning. And so I want to thank all of my fellow residents of Providence for putting on a strong face for the sake of others at this time. There were questions yesterday, and so I'll also just give a brief update on the health status of the survivors. If folks will recall, there had been eight hospitalized, one has since been discharged. There had been nine, eight hospitalized, one has since been discharged. The seven that remain in the hospital, one is in critical status, one five in critical but stable status, although healthcare providers report that they are improving, and one in stable status. Those are the seven. One in critical, five in critical but stable, one in stable status, and one discharged. Since the last time we made comments about their safety and recovery. From the podium now we'll open it up to questions.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

So the question was if I could just repeat what I stated earlier in English as far as the. What occurred here, the reasons of the video and what I was requesting from the public.

[Nicole Wallace]

You believe this person was in the neighborhood at 10:30?

[Governor Dan McKee]

Clarify.

[Nicole Wallace]

You believe that was at 10:30 the morning of the shooting, and what do you believe he was doing there at that time? Correct.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

And we have, we have video footage of that, and we believe that he was actually casing out this area to commit the crime. That's a pattern that criminals do, and that's what he was doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

Chief, yesterday the FBI described the person that we've been seeing these images as a suspect. Today, the language seems to be a person of interest. Can you clarify, do you believe that this person that we're looking at is your shooter, is your shooting suspect?

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Definitely. He's still a person of interest, and we're still investigating that to be able to get that answer. But we strongly believe definitely that's suspected in the incident, in a person of interest.

[Nicole Wallace]

An MIT professor died early this morning from gun job. Does that incident have any potential connection to this Investigation?

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Not at all, no. In the back, sir, ask you yesterday.

[Nicole Wallace]

We were wondering about this person's age. Now that we've seen more video again.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

A couple days ago, I know you're.

[Nicole Wallace]

Saying 20s, there was some talking about 30s.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

But just to help people at home, people seeing this video.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do profilers or anyone in your department has any better understanding a closer idea on his age?

[Governor Dan McKee]

And the second part of that question.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is, can you not confirm that he has no connection as a past student or as a past staff member at the university?

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

So the first question, I'll tell you that the first, when it happened on Saturday night, obviously it was chaos and there was a witness that stated that he might have been in his 30s. At this point, we're still just looking at the picture. We haven't identified ages or anything to that point. And as far as where he's a problem student or anything, we don't have any illuminations.

[Dan Maurer]

No.

[Nicole Wallace]

Carl, in one of the new videos prior to the shooting, this person's interest is seen running. At this point, do you have any.

[Tom Nichols]

Inkling why he's running?

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

Yeah, we're still investigating that, but we do know definitely that he was casing the area. And again, that's what criminals do prior to committing a crime.

[Nicole Wallace]

Chris, it appears that the FBI and.

Pd, according to what I'm looking online.

[Dan Maurer]

Looks like they're releasing separate videos at a separate time.

[Tom Nichols]

But are you guys still coordinating or.

[Providence Police Chief Oscar Perez]

You got to understand that there's a lot of people upstairs, as the general stated earlier. And we're trying to ensure that we do this right job and collect the evidence and that we need. And we want to make sure that everybody has the. Especially you guys in the public. One thing I want to make sure is that the community safe, well informed and stay confident in the work that we're doing. So, yes, there was a video that was released. We also were working on another video. And the purpose of this, this press conference is to ensure that the public can see those videos showing movements like I stated earlier. The way the person walks, the way they carry their weight, that's the importance. And so our video. I'm sorry, the second video that we showed was the one that we did to show the public.

[Nicole Wallace]

Just please, in terms of cameras inside. We've been listening to local and state officials in Providence, Rhode island, an update on the investigation, the shooting at Brown University. I am joined by my colleague, national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg. He was an assistant special agent in charge at the FBI. He's now also a Fellow at Lawfare Michael, this seemed to be going through the motions with the exception of this new enhanced video. What does it say to you that so much of this is still a plea to the public to watch that video, circulate that video, and call with any tips to the tip line?

I hate to sort of pierce the myths of law enforcement, but a much greater percentage of cases than people realize actually do depend on public tips. The FBI and state and local law enforcement, they're all excellent at analyzing data, extrapolating patterns, figuring out motivations, but they can't do that without the raw material they gain from the public, whether it is through voluntary interviews, anonymous tips, or as they were asking for here, surveillance footage. You know, Brown University. I saw some reporting, I think, in the Atlantic today that there's not a super heavy surveillance camera system on the campus. So to the extent this happened in that sort of environment, it's going to be natural that we need to ask for the public's help. You know, and it's important to remember that in a lot of big cases involving mass shootings, law enforcement does only crack the case, only with the assistance of members of the community who come forward. So the fact that they're asking for this sort of help doesn't actually shake my confidence in them.

Michael a mass shooting took place at a prestigious American university. Parents are terrified. Kids don't know if it's safe to be there. And there doesn't seem to be any communication around whether it's safe and if the answer is yes, why it's safe, other than that they have neighboring police departments patrolling the area. And I detected some defensiveness from the university president. I wasn't sure if it was a question asked or a local news report. I hadn't seen it. If it was about people worried about their safety. What would you tell a parent who's scared about having their kid on a college campus right now?

Well, I think the most, the foremost and most human thing they need to know is it's normal to be scared. You know, there's a student at Brown for whom this was her second mass shooting. We need to let that sink in, and we need to recognize that this generation of students is growing up in an environment that none of us did. Shootings are no longer an anomaly. They're unfortunately, something that entire swaths of American society are willing to accept as a normal occurrence. So that fear and that suspicion that they're not being told everything they need to is totally natural. And I honestly don't know whether we can say they're safe right now. You know, there have been no follow up attacks. There have been no follow up shootings. This appears to have been an isolated incident. It's been a significant period of time since this initially occurred. And so, you know, until we know a motivation, until we get some sort of manifesto or inkling of why this occurred, it's impossible to say that it's not going to happen again. But the more time that elapses from the initial incident to the present should give people comfort that they are out of immediate danger. You know, if anyone, anything positive, and I hate to even use that word, can come out of this, it's maybe that people will be reinvigorated to fight for common sense safety solutions to protect our youngest members of society. Because this is just happening. I mean, this is a tautology. For me to say like one time of this happening is too much. For it to happen with the alarming frequency with which it does in a modern industrialized democracy is patently insane. And it is also a choice based on policy decisions.

Michael Feinberg, there's no one to bring all these threads together as you do. Thank you very much for doing that and for doing it with us again today. We're going to sneak in a break. When we get back. We'll return to our top story this hour, the developments in the boat strikes. Defense Secretary Pete Hegsa saying today that controversial second strike video will not be made available to the American people as the Defense Department presses ahead with an investigation into Senator Mark Kelly for telling the men and women of the military not to follow any illegal orders. Senator Dick Durbin will be our guest next. Devin Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Stay with us. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more voices you know and trust.

[Dan Maurer]

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[Nicole Wallace]

The truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news.

[Dan Maurer]

Ask the tough questions and explain how it impacts you.

[Nicole Wallace]

MSN now, same mission, new name. Learn more at Ms. Now we want to get back to developments in the Trump administration's campaign in the Caribbean and strike some alleged drug smuggling boats. News today that the American people will not see the unedited video of that highly controversial second strike on the suspected drug boat in the Caribbean while the Defense Department moves forward with its investigation into Senator Mark Kelly for telling the men and women of the military to only follow orders that are legal. I want to bring into our coverage Democratic Senator Dick Durbin of Illinois. Senator, your reaction to news today from the secretary of Defense that the video will not be made available to all members of the Senate or House or the American people?

[Governor Dan McKee]

Well, I can just tell you I was surprised and disappointed. If you ask the American people in Illinois or other states, do you want to do everything you can to end this war we have with drugs and narcotics, of course they're going to say yes, and I would join that chorus. But we want to do it the legal way, the right way, and we want to do it with the kind of reputation the United States has earned over the years. This notion that the secretary of Defense is going to pick and choose those who see the evidence of this war is just unacceptable.

[Nicole Wallace]

This may seem like a basic and silly question, but because the public won't see the video, can you describe the video? What would the public see if they did see the video of the second strike on September 2nd?

[Governor Dan McKee]

I haven't seen it other than what television has shown, clips and such. I'm not on one of the key committees, Intelligence and Defense. But the fact of the matter is I'm in leadership. And in the past, this was never a question. All the members of the Senate, both political parties, got to see this kind of evidence. This administration takes a different approach. They'll pick and choose those senators they trust to see it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is it? I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but how. What are the conversations behind closed doors around this? I mean, as a story that we are covering, we only have what is before our eyes. And obviously we haven't seen it, but we did, I guess, perk up is the right way to describe the sound of the bipartisan reaction to the Washington Post story and the questions about whether or not a war crime had been committed. Have you been through a moment where there's a bipartisan concern that potential war crimes are being committed and there's no transparency?

[Governor Dan McKee]

No, I haven't. I haven't seen that in my time. You have to go back in history, My Lai, and other situations in previous wars where these questions were raised. And in this situation, we are clearly preparing to invade Venezuela. Most Americans don't know where Venezuela is or why we would do this. The reason is to stop the drug cartels, certainly a good reason. But the object is to use warlike approaches and procedures to accomplish this end without the approval of the American people or Congress. I don't know why this Trump administration continues to defy the law and the Constitution and take it as a fight in court. There are ways to do this properly and legally and constitutionally.

[Nicole Wallace]

Do you believe it's about drugs or would you want to see a policy that included stopping the flow of illegal drugs from China and Mexico, which is where more drugs come from than this region?

[Governor Dan McKee]

Well, I think it's about drugs, but I also think it's about Maduro. I met with him about six or seven years ago. I felt that he didn't have any future in that country if he wouldn't allow inspectors in for international observation of his elections, and he refused to do it. I'm convinced he lost the last election and that's why his political opponents end up in jail, are removed from the country. That's the reality when you look at it. You say to yourself, we are trying to achieve regime change, and that can involve a lot more than sinking 20, 25 or 30 boats.

[Nicole Wallace]

You voted to confirm Senator Marco Rubio, I believe. Are you surprised that he's going along with us so far?

[Governor Dan McKee]

No. I'm disappointed in some respects. But 99 of us voted for Marco Rubio. I've known him for years. I've worked with him on important legislation. I respect him. But the role he's playing with this president is hard to explain. I asked him today how he would explain the president's pardon of the president of Honduras, who was convicted as a drug kingpin and sentenced to 45 years, and President Trump, in the midst of this war against drugs, ends up pardoning him and releasing him from prison. I said, how is that a consistent message to the rest of the world about how serious we are? He couldn't answer that.

[Nicole Wallace]

Senator Dick Durbin, thank you for your time today on this.

[Governor Dan McKee]

Thanks, Nicole.

[Nicole Wallace]

Joining our coverage, staff writer at the Atlantic, a contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter, Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the U.S. naval War College, where he taught for more than two decades. Also joining us, retired U.S. army Lt. Col. Dan Mauer. Dan, let me start with you. Let me turn to the investigation into Senator Kelly. In your view, where's that heading?

[Dan Maurer]

Nowhere good. And it was headed nowhere good from the moment the administration announced that they were investigating Senator Kelly for a non crime. What he said, as you've mentioned before and other people have mentioned many, many times because it's absolutely true, is that telling soldiers, service members to obey lawful orders and to not follow unlawful orders doesn't undermine good order and discipline. It is the fountain of Good order and discipline, to follow lawful orders and to disobey unlawful orders. If anything, he was reinforcing good order and discipline within the force, not undermining it. So he wasn't committing a crime. So by investigating him, by threatening to investigate him, by, by threatening punishment of a sitting senator who's known to be a political opponent of this administration. I mean, I, I, what clear example do you need of, of tyrannical, unmoored, unlawful behavior from the administration? It's scared about being publicly criticized by an opponent. This is not a lawful investigation. When you, when investigating non criminal activity and what, you know, where does this end? You know, hopefully it ends with a, with a public announcement that says no wrongdoing was uncovered. End of story. Hopefully it never happens again. But the fact that this is sent to a sitting senator, a retired senior officer, sends a chilling message down to all the other ranks that have retired, who might have a public opinion that's critical of this administration. And if you're going to do it to a sitting senator, then you could do it to anybody.

[Nicole Wallace]

Tom Nichols, let me show you how this sitting senator, Senator Kelly, responded today.

The last thing I heard from DoD regarding me personally was in 2011 when I retired from the United States Navy and was given the Legion of Merit for my service to this country. So again, yeah, this is all a bunch of bullshit.

[Tom Nichols]

And the reason why I think is because this is just about sending a.

[Nicole Wallace]

Message to retired service members, active duty service members, government employees, do not speak out against this president or there will be consequences.

Tom Nichols.

[Tom Nichols]

Yeah, I mean the, I saw Senator Kelly struggling with the word and it went through my mind. And that's what it is. It's BS and it's meant to basically harass, it's meant to send a message. But it's also just harassment. And you know, there's not, you know, Dan just said there's not a crime here. And this is, has a chilling effect not just on trying to suppress Senator Kelly, but it's basically a way of saying to anybody in military life, we can reach out and even after you're retired, if you criticize this president. But Dan used the word that I want to come back to. He said scared. And I think the thing that strikes me about this campaign against Mark Kelly is how much reeks of panic and insecurity and fear, you know, from a guy like Pete Hegseth, who, you know, is not a patch on a guy like Mark Kelly. And I think it really shows, you know, you don't do this when you think you're strong, you do this when you're weak and you're trying to intimidate people from criticizing you, and the whole thing is just ridiculous.

[Nicole Wallace]

Tom, what are they doing? I mean, can I ask the bigger question? I think Democrats are generous in crediting a real intent to deal with the flow of illegal drugs, but I'm not sure about where the questions are being fielded and answered and where the conversation is happening. So, okay, it's about illegal drugs. What is the plan to deal with the flow of illegal drugs into the United States of America from Mexico and China, which is where far more drugs come that kill far more American people? What is your sense of what is actually happening?

I don't know.

[Tom Nichols]

I mean, it looks like, you know, Hegseth and some folks at the White House playing war because it makes no sense. And the argument, by the way, you know, earlier that, well, we're not going to show you. We can't show the American people the top secret films. Fine. I was a government employee. I had a security clearance. You don't need to show the American public top secret films to actually explain why you're killing people every day on the high seas. And they just won't give an answer to that question because I don't think they really know. I think it's something Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth feel makes them look strong, you know, giving orders and blowing up boats out in the middle of the ocean. But, you know, there's a simple. The Congress of the United States, the people in the United States are saying, why are you doing this? And their answer is, well, we can't show you classified films. That's not the question they were asked. The question they're being asked is, what are you doing? What is the authority for doing this? What is the goal you're pursuing here? And the reason they're not answering it is I don't think they know. I think they thought that this would be military theatrics that would help them. You know, that's really a tough thing to say about a campaign where people are being killed. You know, even if they're bad guys running drugs, I mean, you basically blow. You know, our guys are being told to kill people on the high seas. And I think it's simply they thought that this would make Trump look tough, it would distract from the president's many other problems and give them some kind of COVID And I don't. And it's not working. People are just asking the basic question of what they're doing, and they can't answer it.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Dan, what is the way that the American people will understand the legal authority by which shipwreck survivors of an initial strike were struck a second time and killed?

[Dan Maurer]

Well, there is no legal authority to do that, period, really, under any body of law. I heard it mentioned by Senator Durbin earlier. You discussed this is a war crime. And to be technical about it, it's not a war crime because there's no war happening. There is no armed conflict within the meaning of how we interpret that under our own domestic law or under international law. It's not an armed conflict with these. With these cartels or these individual organized groups. They're just not. And so what it is, it's use of deadly force without due process to kill people as punishment for what they're allegedly doing. That's a crime. That's murder. Under our own law. It's an extrajudicial killing. Excuse me, an extrajudicial killing under international human rights law. There is no basis for it. It goes back to the original boat strike on September 2, just the first one. And everyone since then has been unlawful. The second strike on the first boat was doubly unlawful because you have, literally people who are not hostile in any way. Were they criminals?

[Michelle Obama]

Maybe.

[Dan Maurer]

But even if they were, if it were bin Laden himself clinging to the side of a shipwrecked boat, unarmed, not able to engage in any kind of hostile action, not posing any imminent threat to anyone, is supposed to be rescued and protected. That's. That's the law. And what you're going to see in a video that they're so adamant about, about hiding from the American public, is precisely that you're going to see people who do not appear to be unarmed. I'm sorry, who do not appear to be armed, who appear to be no threat to anybody, who then get obliterated by a missile strike. And it's. It's ironic and, and a little bit sad, really. Quite sad that you see all these videos with this unclassified green banner at the top showing the moment of killing all these other individuals. That's not classified, that's not top secret. They've released it willingly and, and almost enthusiastically, and yet they won't show the second strike because it will so obviously turn people away, as it should.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. Tom Nichols, Lieutenant Colonel Dan Maurer, thank you very much for waiting through that press proving for us and the breaking news to get to the story. Really important. We appreciate you. When we come back, the blowback over Donald Trump's vile comments about the murder of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle is only growing louder. What former first lady Michelle Obama told Jimmy Kimmel last night. We'll show it to you next.

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Dan Maurer]

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[Nicole Wallace]

The Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the.

[Dan Maurer]

Briefing with Jen Psaki and more Voices.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know and trust.

[Dan Maurer]

Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world.

[Nicole Wallace]

Learn more at Ms. Now.

Just when you think he can't go any lower, he somehow finds a way to his description of what happened, of course, is not at all what happened. And this is exactly what I've spoken about before, this rush to pin the tail on the donkey in pursuit of the Trump friendly narrative. Not to mention blaming his death on the fact that he is an outspoken liberal, insulting someone who's just been murdered, who leaves children behind without having any idea of what actually happened. It's so hateful and vile. When I first saw it, I thought it was fake. My wife showed it to me this morning. I was like, well, even for him, that seemed like too much. But nothing is ever too much for him.

Nothing is ever too much for him. That was Jimmy Kimmel last night. On Donald Trump's willingness to politicize everything, even moments that typically bring our country together in mourning and sadness and empathy sinking to the lowest of lows. Even for Donald Trump, his response to the horrific and tragic deaths of Hollywood icon Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle has even many people in Donald Trump's own political coalition drawing a line in the sand, if you will, and showing what moral leadership looks like. Here's Jimmy Kimmel's guest last night, the former First Lady Michelle Obama. Here's what she had to say about the Reiners. We've known them for many, many years.

[Michelle Obama]

And we were supposed to be seeing them that night last night and we got the news. And let me just say this.

[Nicole Wallace]

Unlike some people, Rob and Michelle Reiner.

[Michelle Obama]

Are some of the most decent, courageous people you ever want to know.

[Nicole Wallace]

They are not. They are not deranged or crazed. What they have always been are passionate people. In a time when there's not a lot of courage going on. I want to bring into our coverage. Media Matters President Angelo Carazone and senior contributing editor at msnow, Michel Norris is here. Michelle, the first lady, speaking candidly and from the heart and drawing a. Well, frankly, rebuking Donald Trump for the things he said about the Reiners and rebuking all of those who would remain silent about what we're witnessing in this White House.

[Michelle Obama]

Well, I just want to agree with her in that Rob Reiner and Michelle Singer Reiner were extraordinary people who used their power and their platforms to lift up not just their work in Hollywood, but to support American democracy and people who were fighting for it. I'm kind of torn about this continued focus on Donald Trump because he managed to try to turn the story about him, to turn it into something that was about him, and yet he sunk to new lows, as Jimmy Kimmel said. I mean, Michelle Obama is the voice of conscience at a moment like this, and she will be forever remembered for saying that when they go low, we go high. But I don't think that she ever imagined that a sitting president would excavate the depths of several sub basements of decorum. And so she realized that there's a new game plan and she started to use her voice to stand up to a bully. And she did that in her convention speech and she did that on the campaign trail. And she's willing to do that to remind Americans, Americans, what decency looks like and to remind Americans what we should not be hearing from anyone who's sitting in the Oval Office, particularly at a moment like this and a moment that really, I think, you know, we're numb because we're seeing so many things that are questionably, that are usually dubious, questionably legal. And it becomes like a steady drip of novocaine and you become numb. But I think this weekend, this steady drip of horrific news at a Brown University and at a beach in Australia, and then the murder of Rob Reiner and his wife Michelle really, really touched a lot of people because because of the cadence of this and because a lot of people felt something for Rob Reiner because of his role in all of the Family, because of the films that he produced that were so beloved. And so for a president to say something like this was just like taking an open can of salt and pouring it onto a communal wound. And I think it's a powerful thing that the first lady decided, our former first lady decided to rebuke him. I'm glad that she did, and I'm glad that Many Republicans are doing the same thing. Will it get through to Donald Trump? Probably not. But at least people are standing up and drawing a line and saying, this is just, you've crossed one line too many here, Angela.

[Dan Maurer]

I agree with Michelle. We go through these cycles of just indignation and condemnation of Trump and eventually it gets a little tired. I agree. I hate the way people breath with, you know, with his breath on it. But in this case it's, it's interesting, you know, because it's who's condemning him. And we saw this in the first time in the spring with Epstein stuff where people, where if you listen to what the callers were saying on talk radio, you got a keyhole view into a large part of MAGA and how they felt about Trump. And that's happening again, all happening all over again. There's a large contingent of the audiences there that are pushing back, but they don't like it. And I think their condemnation of Trump is significantly more interesting and compelling right now than Michelle Obama's. Not because, you know, they're better necessarily, but because it tells us about where we're going. And it's an illustration of the fact that Trump is losing his grip on the political power, the engine that has given him political power, which is the right wing media. And the more he has these slip ups, the more people that were following him see the truth. And I don't really care how they feel about Trump and I certainly don't have an expectation that Trump's behavior changes. But the one thing that is a guarantee is that the more these cracks continue to expand, the weaker that he gets politically. He is still not being treated the way he needs to be treated by standard rank and file Republicans. But increasingly you're starting to see some of the loosening up in the space for that, for him, for that treatment to actually take place and for his power to be diminished.

[Nicole Wallace]

And downstream from that diminished power, you hope you see fewer institutions capitulating to him, fewer esteemed universities paying millions and millions of dollars to him, fewer businesses funding his destruction, literally of the West Wing. I mean, it is the most consequential thing to watch. So thank you for bringing that into focus. Angelo and Michel, thank you both so much for being here today. We want to let our colleague let you know that our colleague Jonathan Capehart sits down for an exclusive interview with former first lady Michelle Obama. They discuss her new book, the look and Its Message for Society. That conversation airs Thursday night at 8pm Eastern. Quick break for us. We'll be right Back talking to this week's guest on the Best People podcast has been on our wish list since we started the podcast. The brilliant, the hilarious, the iconic Leslie Jones made our wishes come true. Listen to what she told me about the power of standing up in this political moment.

I think everybody is starting to go, okay. I don't know why we're scared of this guy. We the people. We the people. We the people. I tell people all the time that we've become so complacent that we don't understand what we have to do. No one wants to lose their Netflix. No one wants to stop ordering from Amazon. No one wants to. You know, I tell people it's not that wouldn't have to last long. We shut Target down, what, two weeks? We shut them down. They still can't recover from what we did.

Kimmel. Four days. Four days of people playing Hulu and Disney.

Dude, if you didn't buy cigarettes for a week, I mean, it's just little like that that we can do to start showing. Hey, like, the fact that Starbucks is still filled amazes me. It really is a very big show of we don't give a. Like I. The way that they turned DEI into something that is just so blatantly racist, you didn't even know what it meant. And it's just, we can control this narrative. We are just too scared and complacent to do it.

She's brilliant. She is hilarious. She is. Must see that conversation is out now on YouTube. You can watch the whole thing by scanning the QR code on your screen right now. Or listen wherever you get your podcast. We want to thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

Ms. Now presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to come Congress, and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki Season 2 all episodes available now.