“There's no grey line"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode Title: "There's no grey line"
Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

---

Overview

This episode dives deep into the contentious political, legal, and moral questions swirling around the ongoing controversy of the Jeffrey Epstein files. Host Nicolle Wallace draws on her political and communications experience to analyze the latest developments: Donald Trump’s shifting public and private posture, the bipartisan push for transparency, survivors’ demands for justice, and how these stories intersect with broader questions about the Department of Justice, presidential power, and America’s immigration enforcement.

The program features in-depth interviews with Congressman Robert Garcia (CA), legal analysts Andrew Weissmann and Mary McCord, and on-the-ground coverage of a dramatic protest led by faith leaders against Trump-era mass deportation policies. The phrase “There’s no grey line” (spoken by an Epstein survivor) emerges as a central motif, highlighting the episode’s focus on moral clarity and accountability.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Two Trumps on Epstein: Public vs. Private Postures

(Timestamp: 01:06–04:21)

• Wallace frames the week as dominated by Donald Trump’s conflicting roles:
  • Public Trump: Brands the Epstein story as a “Democrats’ problem” and dubs it the “Epstein hoax,” calling for investigation into high-profile Democrats like Bill Clinton.
  • Private Trump: Reportedly scrambling to convince House Republicans to block the release of the Epstein files, reflecting a “losing battle.” (White House official to MSNBC)

Notable Quote:

“There are two Donald Trumps, God help us, the public one and the behind-closed-doors one.”
— Nicolle Wallace [01:06]

---

2. Survivor Voices & Demand for Clarity

(Timestamp: 03:04–03:45)

• Epstein survivors make forceful appeals for recognition and transparency:
  • One survivor says, “You are either protecting pedophiles or children and victims.”
  • Another: “There’s no gray line. It’s only one or the other. And you can’t ride the gray line.”

Notable Moment: “There’s no grey line”

“There’s no gray line. It’s only one or the other. And you can’t ride the gray line.”
— Epstein survivor [03:35]

---

3. Congressman Robert Garcia on Congressional Action & Revealed Documents

(Timestamp: 03:45–14:03)

• Garcia details the committee’s efforts to force file disclosure, emphasizing transparency for victims.
• Points out discrepancies in Trump’s statements, cites direct testimony and photographic evidence of Trump-Epstein ties.
• Strong commitment to pressuring both parties for continued investigation and to stop any potential commutation/pardon of Ghislaine Maxwell.

Highlights:

• Transparency Push: “Our commitment is to be transparent and to ensure that we center and fight for the victims.” [04:21]
• Trump-Epstein Relationship: “Epstein called Donald Trump his best friend … there was a relationship there.” [04:57]
• Call for Action: “We need every Republican on record to assist us in getting those files from the Department of Justice.” [07:33]
• Political Impact: 81% of Americans believe Trump is “hiding something” in the Epstein file. [05:51]

---

4. Political and Legal Analysis: The Cover-Up and Its Consequences

(Timestamp: 14:03–30:05)

Panelists:

• Andrew Weissman (MSNBC Legal Analyst, former DOJ official)
• Mary McCord (former Acting Assistant AG for National Security)
• Rev. Al Sharpton

Discussion Themes:

• Trump’s popularity plummets, with “releasing the Epstein files” polling about 26 points higher than Trump personally. [14:17]
• The rationale for White House resistance: ongoing investigation cited as reason for nondisclosure, panelists view this as a stalling tactic or cover-up.
• Pam Bondi (AG) and Jay Clayton’s roles scrutinized; skepticism aired on credibility of an “internal investigation.”
• The segment draws parallels with previous Trump-era scandals, notably “the perfect call” with Zelensky.

Notable Quotes:

“If there is nothing to hide, you would release things—this is just common sense.”
— Andrew Weissman [17:28]

“Every move that they’ve made so far only intensifies it…”
— Rev. Al Sharpton [25:49]

“It is just apparent from everything that we’ve been seeing … that [DOJ] is his tool to torment his enemies and to protect his friends.”
— Mary McCord [23:12]

---

5. Cultural Impact & Public Pressure

(Timestamp: 25:13–26:42)

• Discussion of a provocative “Best Friends Forever” Trump/Epstein statue appearing in D.C., symbolizing the issue’s inescapability in public discourse and resistance to attempts to distract from or downplay the scandal.

---

6. Immigration Enforcement Protest & Faith Community Backlash

(Timestamp: 31:12–41:51)

On-the-ground update:

• Interfaith protest at Chicago’s Broadview Detention Center leads to police violence, multiple clergy and protester injuries and arrests.
• Rev. Quincy Worthington (on scene) recounts brutal police response: “shoving, beating,” “knees on necks,” “smashing with batons.”
• Judge’s order for release of over 300 detainees challenges the administration’s defiance and underscores judicial oversight being resisted.
• Catholic bishops release a rare statement condemning “indiscriminate mass deportation” and the dehumanization of immigrants.

Notable Quotes:

“Our neighbors are being abducted off of the streets in the absence of due process, with people just being snatched without any cause, except for … being brown.”
— Rev. Quincy Worthington [32:56]

“We oppose the indiscriminate mass deportation of people. We pray for an end to dehumanizing rhetoric and violence.”
— Statement from American Catholic Bishops [39:50]

“To bring both the issues we’re dealing with this hour, we’re going to hide what’s going on with a child trafficker but we’re going to push around clergymen that merely want to give people that are detainees some spiritual strength. This is not the United States.”
— Rev. Al Sharpton [41:31]

---

7. Broader Consequences: Rule of Law and Department of Justice

(Timestamp: 29:13–30:05)

• Mary McCord: Warns of lasting damage to DOJ’s reputation.
• The new norm of “utility to Trump” determining prosecution or pardon, undermining institutional legitimacy.

“Degrading the Department of Justice...hurts justice across the board. It hurts the relationships with the courts … and it hurts the rule of law.”
— Mary McCord [29:13]

---

Notable Quotes — At a Glance

• “There’s no gray line.” — Epstein Survivor [03:35]
• “Our commitment is to be transparent and to ensure that we center and fight for the victims.” — Rep. Robert Garcia [04:21]
• “If there is nothing to hide, you would release things—this is just common sense.” — Andrew Weissmann [17:28]
• “Best friends forever” statue: Pop culture pushback keeps issue alive in D.C. [25:13]
• “This is not the United States.” — Rev. Al Sharpton [41:31]
• “Degrading the Department of Justice...hurts justice across the board.” — Mary McCord [29:13]

---

Key Timestamps

• [01:06] – Introduction: Trump’s dual posture on Epstein files
• [03:35] – Survivor’s direct message to lawmakers
• [04:21] – Rep. Garcia on transparency and oversight action
• [07:33] – Push for DOJ file release and bipartisan vote
• [14:17] – Public opinion: Trump vs. file release
• [17:28] – Legal analysis: Cover-up and transparency
• [25:13] – Cultural impact: Trump/Epstein “BFF” statue
• [31:12] – Chicago: Faith leader protest and police violence
• [39:50] – Catholic bishops’ condemnation of mass deportations
• [41:31] – Connecting issues: accountability and compassion

---

Tone and Style

• The tone is insistent, urgent, and clear-eyed—there is little patience for obfuscation or political gamesmanship.
• Survivors and faith leaders speak with moral clarity, framing events starkly as a matter of protecting victims versus abetting perpetrators.
• Analysts, including Wallace, express alarm at the institutional decay of Department of Justice procedures and the threatening erosion of the rule of law.
• Moments of dark cultural irony (e.g., the satirical statue) underscore both public anger and the depth of the controversy’s entrenchment in national consciousness.

---

Conclusion

The episode paints a grim but clear picture of an America struggling to live up to its own professed values—whether in the search for accountability regarding Epstein’s crimes and alleged coverups, or in the treatment of immigrants and those who protest in their defense. The message: “There’s no gray line.” On these issues, transparency, justice for victims, and adherence to the rule of law are not matters of negotiation but of national conscience—and the public is watching closely.

---

Transcript

[A]

Deadline. White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're.

[B]

Not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have.

[A]

To don't know the difference between matte.

[B]

Paint, finish and satin or what that.

[A]

Clunking sound from your dryer is.

[B]

With thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see.

[A]

Price estimates and read reviews all on the app.

[B]

Download today Mr. President, can you respond.

[C]

To these Epstein emails that were released today?

[D]

Well done, Mr. President.

[E]

Must have been the audio. Hi again everybody. It's now five o' clock in New York. The tangled knot of Donald Trump's competing positions or postures on the release of the Jeffrey Epstein documents in the government's possession can be difficult to track with. So think of it like this. There are two Donald Trumps, God help us, the public one and the behind closed doors one. The public one spent his day posting on social media about what he has now branded the, quote, Epstein hoax actually being the, quote, Democrats problem. And he said he would be asking the Justice Department to investigate people he says were somehow involved, including Bill Clinton. But where this particular version of Donald Trump projects aggressive transparency, the other one, the private Donald Trump, is in the midst of what one White House official described to MSNBC as a, quote, losing battle with Republican lawmakers. With a vote on the release of the Epstein files expected next week, that official said it's likely that Trump aides will meet with House Republicans to try to convince them to vote against the legislation, reflecting the same strategy failingly employed in the lead up to the discharge petition. Perhaps it's a losing battle because Republicans recognize the political reality of the moment that what Trump wants and what the MAGA base their constituents want are now completely different. Here's Republican Senator John Kennedy.

[B]

My people want to know who else.

[C]

If anyone, did Epstein traffic young women to and if they were punished, how.

[B]

Were they punished and if they weren't punished, why?

[C]

I just don't think this issue is going to go away until that issue is addressed and answered to the American people's satisfaction. And I may end up with a sombrero on my head for saying that, but that's the way I see it.

[E]

With votes expected next week, survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's crimes are expected to return to the Hill. But in the meantime, they're making their views perfectly clear. Watch. We have felt at times so unheard by the people in our government. We're real people. And at this point, I just don't know what more you need to show that it is not a hoax. You are either protecting pedophiles or children and victims.

[C]

There's no gray line. It's only one or the other. And you can't ride the gray line.

[E]

It doesn't exist. That is where we start the hour with one of the Democrats keeping his foot on the pedal, Congressman Robert Garcia of California, the ranking member of the Oversight Committee. Congressman Garcia, thank you so much for starting us off. How long were you aware of what was in the newly released emails from the Epstein estate? And what is your analysis? How do you read them? And how do you process all of the new information the country learned for the first time this week?

[B]

Yeah, I mean, obviously it's still shocking. I mean, there was really, that was a bombshell of information, 23,000 pages. We received that batch of documents from the Epstein estate just a few days before we actually released those emails, which of course, we believe then forced the hand of Republicans in the majority to then release additional batches. And that's always been our goal, is to ensure that every piece of evidence of information that we get as a committee, we're gonna get it out to the American public. And that is our commitment to be transparent and to ensure that we center and fight for the victims. Now, look, I think these emails really raise me more questions. I mean, the questions around what was the relationship between Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein? Donald Trump claims to kind of not know him or he wasn't very involved in his life. And we know that's just not true. I mean, Epstein called Donald Trump his best friend. I've heard directly from survivors who saw a photo of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein on Jeffrey Epstein's desk every time they would come over to Epstein's apartment. And so we know there was a relationship there. And now looking at the behavior of the President in the last few days, it is crystal clear to anyone that he is guiding a massive White House cover up and that he is now obsessed with ensuring that those files do not get released to the public. Well, the news for him is that we're not going to stop until the files are released and we get justice for the survivors.

[E]

Not to try to navigate his own political peril. But it seems that time is his enemy. And it seems that in the time that the Oversight Committee has had, the Republican support for the discharge position became more solid, not less, because the public is now more suspicious of what you just articulated. 81% of Americans think Donald Trump is hiding something in the Epstein file. He's also becoming more unpopular. What do you think is in there that is worth taking on all this political water?

[B]

Well, look, first, obviously, I think it's really important for folks to understand that the reason we have any disclosure is because we've had to fight to get what we have right now. A few months ago, I became ranking member of this committee. We immediately kind of put together a plan to. To force Republicans to vote on a subpoena to initially begin getting those files from the DOJ to our committee. And then we also pressured Republicans to begin investigations to Alex Acosta and so many other folks that were involved in this. And almost as importantly, to get also these documents from the Epstein estate, which is very different than the DOJ and what they have. Now that we've been getting documents from the Epstein estate, it's clear that, crystal clear that there was a relationship between Epstein and Trump, that there are serious questions about what Trump knew, what he knew about Epstein's activities and other coconspirators. It's also important for folks to know that what we've received pales in comparison to the documents that actually exist in the Department of Justice, of which we have a subpoena to receive. And why that vote that's going to happen next week is so important is we need every Republican on record to assist us in getting those files from the Department of Justice. It is an enormous amount of documents and photographs, possibly videos. And we've talked to folks that have been involved in the collection of these documents, and I'll tell you that there's a lot of information in there, and it's got to become available to the public.

[E]

What is your understanding of how intimate Todd Blanche's knowledge was of Ghislaine Maxwell's ongoing relationship with Epstein and the fact that they discussed Donald when he interviewed her?

[B]

Well, I think first we have to remind ourselves that Todd Blanche was Donald Trump's personal lawyer. So as far as, you know, before he went to the Department of Justice at W. A.G. i mean, Donald Trump and him are friends. They're colleagues. He's been working with the President for a long time, and so he's already very aware of the president and his relationships. And then to go and meet with Ghislaine Maxwell, who is monstrous in what she has done to children and to and to women in this country, and to move her to this facility, this less secure facility. And apparently now there are meetings happening that people aren't aware of. She's getting special privileges. It's clear she wants a partner. Commutation. It's very concerning. And look, we think that Todd Blanch clearly has a lot of information, and he had information prior to going into that meeting. Those are questions that we have. And what's also apparent is that Ghislaine Maxwell wants that pardon. She wants a commutation. She is a known liar. She's a known trafficker of girls and women. And the committee which we have a commitment from James Comer to bring Ghilaine Maxwell in front of us to answer our questions has been stalled. We're again calling on Chairman Comer to get Ghislaine Maxwell to come to our committee, which she's already committed to do. And by the way, her lawyers and her team have committed to do as well.

[E]

I've been the privilege of interviewing survivors and to a person, they are not seeking revenge, and they don't seem to have a political outcome in any of the things that they say. They only want transparency. They only want to know everything that the government gathered and investigated about the monsters who traffic them and abuse them. And I think sometimes people forget that Ghislaine Maxwell participated in the assaults, the sexual assaults of these girls. She's been described as removing their clothes and engaging in the sex acts. What is your. What is available to Democrats, or if it's bipartisan, to Democrats and Republicans on oversight, to stop a commutation of the sentence of a convicted child sex trafficker.

[B]

And this is difficult, but we know that the powers of a president when it comes to pardons and commutations are strong. And which is why it's so important for us to continue to pressure and demand that the president do not pardon Ghislaine Maxwell or give her any additional treatment. Which is why these investigations that we're launching and that others like Jimmy Raskin in Judiciary are launching, why survivors speaking out is so courageous at this moment. I just spoke to one just yesterday, and I'm trying to talk to as many as possible, and they're horrified about what's happening with Ghislaine Maxwell. They know how, how horrific of a person she is and what she has done. And this moment in getting this vote next week, we need a strong Republican group of folks are going to break with the president to vote yes. And that will send a signal to the Senate to also move this forward and vote yes. This is, we're at a very important moment. Look, Donald Trump is clearly at the White House now panicking and trying to cause all sorts of distractions as it relates to these files. He's now, of course, announced he's launching his own investigation into Democrats. My message to the president is we don't care what political party people are in, how powerful they are. We just want the truth. And the president right now at this minute could bring justice for the survivors and end all of this if you would just release the files. He's the only person in the country that has the power right now to end this and bring justice. He should just release the files and get it over with.

[E]

Pam Bondi today responded to, I don't know why they don't all just call each other, but they seem to do all this business on social media, talking to one another through social Trump posting about asking Pam Bondi to appoint a special counsel to investigate Bill Clinton, Larry Summers, Reid Hoffman, JPMorgan Chase and, quote, many other people. Pam Bondi responding on social media by saying, thank you, Jay Clayton's going to do it. Pam Bondi went on television and said that the names, the quote, files are on my desk. Should Jay Clayton start with Pam Bondi or do you have any faith that Jay Clayton is going to do a real investigation?

[B]

I don't have any faith in the work of the Department of Justice or anything that Pam Bondi launches. She should be investigating the president. She should be investigating the actions of her own department of what Cash Patel is doing. I mean, the, what's, what's crazy about this message from Donald Trump today is he's saying we want to launch investigations to all these people, you know, the names you just mentioned, whether it's Larry Summers or Clinton or whoever, they've all their names are all in the files that we've been releasing. We could care less if they're a Democrat or how powerful they were or if they were a former president. We're going to put it all out. That's what matters at this moment. And this, you know, whose name appeared the most in the documents we released yesterday, that 22,000 pages, you know, whose name actually appeared the most in those pages of all the folks that we're discussing? Donald Trump. And so if you're going to investigate anyone, it should be the president of United States. And the fact that Pam Bondi is stopping the release of a legal subpoena from the US Congress is outrageous. And we're going to continue to push, and I've told everybody as well, we're just getting started. They think that we're causing them headaches and making the president panic. Now, just stay tuned because there's a lot more information that is going to be released, more documents that we're going to get, and we're going to continue to demand that they do the right thing and get us that release from the Department of Justice.

[E]

Congressman Robert Garcia, how busy you are. Thank you for starting us off on this. I want to bring in our panel. Former top official at the Department of Justice, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman is here. Also joining us, former actor, acting assistant attorney general for national security at the Justice Department. Mary McCourt is here. And with me at the table, the Reverend Al Sharpton, President of the National Action Network, the host of Politics Nation on msnbc. I just want to button this with a political question. You know, Trump is now less popular than releasing the Epstein files by about 26 points. Releasing the Epstein files, that's like 81% support among the American people. High 70s, low 80s. Donald Trump is down to about 36%. I mean, that's, that's a huge gap. He is far less popular than releasing the files. Why do you think it's gotten to this point now where the Democrats and this bipartisan committee, which has a real echo to the January 6th select committee in the fact that they have the public support behind them. They've, in Massey, they seem to have found a Republican who's unafraid of doing the right thing on this issue. And the White House seems delusional in all of its efforts to slow this down.

[F]

Well, they're either delusional or they're not because they may know what we don't know. And that is what's in the files. Because no one can see this kind of lopsided poll that says that most Americans overwhelmingly wants to see them released. And your response is, go investigate somebody else. Well, why would you want anyone investigated if you don't?

[E]

But to which the Democrats say, fine.

[F]

Right, we investigate everybody, but let's put the stuff out that we have from the investigation on you that doesn't answer that question. And I think the American people are seeing that. When I was taken aback when American voters didn't respond to a tape with him talking about grabbing women's privates. But here we have people saying, wait a minute. Even though I make allowances, you're talking about my little girls, my daughters. We can normalize this. I think it's a bridge too far. And you and I have been around long enough to know. If Donald Trump felt there was nothing there, he would not be dismissing the press out of events. He'd be on the road, on tour saying, look at what they're trying to do to me. He'd be doing every interview. His silence, and he's trying to shift it to investigating others is really something that is out of character for him other than he knows what we don't know. And the question becomes, how can you ask to investigate others while at the same time you're telling Republican members of Congress don't release the investigations on me or on Epstein.

[E]

Yeah. I mean, it has some echoes. Andrew Weissman, to the Perfect Call and the transcript that he wanted released of his call with Zelensky, where when he thinks he's done nothing wrong, even when the political universe insists he has, he's the one demanding transparency. What do you make of this doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on not releasing something that the most senior law enforcement official in the country, Kash Patel, promised would be released if Trump was elected?

[C]

Well, I start with the same thing that the Rev has talked about, which is if there is nothing to hide, you would release things. I mean, this is just common sense. And you would not take this battering if there was nothing to hide. It's, you know, there's a cover up that is going on right now. And the issue is, you know, why? And you know, they know very well. And the fact that we had the release yesterday of all of these documents that are quite damning and they're still doing it, makes you think it's, it's gotta be even worse. But why is this going on? I think the strategy from the White House is, remember the House now has the votes to sort of force the release and have this go up to the Senate, but there's an exception if there is an ongoing investigation. And so you see the President and now Pam Bondi, who had said there's nothing to see here and issued a memo saying this is all over, suddenly saying, oh no, there is something to see here. And that is so that they can can say there's an ongoing investigation so we cannot release the files, which is just a continuation of the COVID up. And it is forcing Kambandi to take a completely different position than she had taken, you know, a New York minute ago by saying, there's nothing to see here. The case is closed, and now saying there's something open. One little point I'd like to make, which is if I am James Comey and Letitia James and John Brennan, right now, I am augmenting my selective and vindictive prosecution memo to point out the president is saying only go after Democrats. If you want proof of sort of selective and vindictive prosecution, it is from the president's mouth in this situation where he is, you know, weaponizing, you know, directly the, you know, the Department of Justice, hoping that the Democrats are going to have cold feet and say, wait, we'll back off. But as you heard from the congressman a minute ago, that's not going to happen.

[E]

Yeah. And I mean, no victim of child sex trafficking says get to the bottom of the crimes that I was victimized by, but only look at the people in one party or the other. I mean, this is now centered around the victims. It's a ludicrous, it's a ludicrous directive from Donald Trump. All right, the panel sticks around. We'll have much, much more. We'll bring Marion on the other side of the break in our conversation and coverage of the continuing fallout from the release of these emails and the call for releasing the full Epstein files. We'll also talk more about Donald Trump's desperate attempts to make questions about the files and his relationship to Jeffrey Epstein just poof, go away. Also ahead for us, the Trump administration's cruel detention and mass deportation agenda has been met with fierce resistance again today as protests led by faith leaders erupt outside an ICE detention center in Chicago. It comes after rare rebuke by America's Roman Catholic bishops condemning the, quote, indiscriminate mass deportation of people and dehumanizing rhetoric and violence against immigrants. We'll have that conversation later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[A]

MSNBC presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki, Season 2. All episodes available now. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddows original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter Each morning. Read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[E]

The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.

[A]

Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up [e-mail].

[E]

We'Re back. Mary the Wall Street Journal writes it like this, quote, as is so often the case, Trump has been his own worst enemy here as a candidate, he found the expectations of the Epstein conspiracy theorists who think government is protecting the rich and powerful once in power. Attorney General Pam Bondi and FBI Director Kash Patel teased explosive fin findings, but later said there's nothing to see. Meanwhile, Trump has resorted to his usual default that it's all a hoax. Even as he strong arms Republicans to oppose the discharge position. He looks like he has something to hide, even if he doesn't. This was apparent to me covering it this week that if they succeed by saying it's an ongoing investigation and not turning things over, they have that 81% of Americans becoming more mad, not less mad. And if they turn it all over, that seems to be the one thing they won't do. I mean, this is now a lose lose for him.

[F]

It is.

[D]

And it's remarkable how at every twist and turn, every different change of position, how stupid he thinks the American people are. I mean, really, does he think that they have no memory? And I think that's why you are seeing people, you know, his own base, who are upset about this. That's also why you're seeing members of Congress, Republican members of Congress saying enough is enough. You know, you cannot promise something, pull it back, promise it again, pull it back again, and then distort everything to say. Now, I'm going to use this as an excuse to direct my attorney general to launch investigations into my political enemies. I mean, what you get out of this Department of Justice right now, and I know I've said this, I think on your show and elsewhere, I mean, it is just not even recognizable to me anymore. But the predictability that you have is that whether you are investigated or prosecuted, just like whether you are pardoned or have your sentence committed is all based on whether you are useful to Donald Trump. Are you in his camp or are you not? And that is, that is they are not even trying to hide that. Right. It is just apparent from everything that we've been seeing now for the last several weeks and months that it is his tool to torment his enemies and to protect his friends. I heard reporting today from Bloomberg and maybe, and maybe MSNBC as well. I'm sorry, I've been meeting meetings all day.

[G]

That's okay.

[D]

Today that the Department of Justice is negotiating a civil damages settlement with Michael Flynn. Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty twice, then had the Department of Justice under AG Bill Barr dismiss his case, sued the government, the government defended against that suit, and now is is negotiating a settlement to pay him money for frankly having lied to the FBI. So the, the self dealing here is just, you know, it's like it's on a billboard and it's just shocking and disgusting to me.

[E]

Well, I don't know if I've seen the billboard yet, but there is a statue. Can I show it to you? This is Trump and Epstein, but BFFs forever. This first emergency emerged in Washington D.C. several weeks ago. It's a 12 foot statue that says Best friends forever. It depicts Donald Trump and the dead convicted sex offender skipping and holding hands. I think this is important because so much of Trump's political dominance seemed to intersect with cultural dominance. And the fact that something like that keeps showing up in Washington D.C. of all places, where Trump has got the National Guard out there patrolling the streets is fascinating.

[F]

No, it is fascinating. It's right there where he made his first occupy of a city or a district around deportation. And they can't stop the reemergence of this statue, which really says you're not going to get rid of this Epstein issue no matter what he does. And I mean, I'm looking. Is he going to try to do something in Venezuela this weekend? Is he going to try to do something somewhere else to distract. But I think the public is saying, including his, that wait a minute, this is not tolerable. We need to know the truth. And every move that they've made so far only intensifies it to say, now go look at this one and that one, the other one, but I'm not giving you anything, only hardens the people as saying there's something there. I want to know what's there. Congress needs to deliver on this.

[E]

So Andrew Weitzman. Jay Clayton is the U.S. attorney for SDNY. I guess my question for you is, is he more Danielle Sassoon, who resigned over the corruption of the Eric Adams case, or Eric Siebert, who was pushed out and left over, refusing to bring weak evidence to a grand jury, or is he, Emile Beauvais, willing to bend the rule of law to Trump's image?

[C]

Well, we will see. But remember, he did not stand up for Danielle Sassoon. He did not resign. And so I don't have a lot of faith. I should note that Donald Trump, while he's saying a special counsel should be appointed to investigate Democrats, that's not what Pam Bondi did. She kept it within the department completely. And a person who was a US Attorney who was appointed by Donald Trump, not getting an independent special counsel. Contrast that with what happened under the Biden administration where you had special counsels appointed to investigate not only Joe Biden, but Joe Biden's son. But just to footstep on what the Rev said, we are talking about the rape and sexual abuse that has been alleged and proven that has gone on with respect to minors. And so we're not talking about some minor infraction here. And we are sitting here where Pam Bondi and the president could turn over these documents. It does not take a law degree or a rocket scientist to know if there is nothing to hide, why are you not turning those over? And these are just additional shenanigans to cover that up. All of this could be disclosed and we're talking about the most serious heinous crimes. And just final point, Mary McCord, I've known her now for a long time. We do this podcast together every week. You do not hear Mary McCord say these things with that kind of vehemence and that passion, unless it is something that at core is really rotten. Goes to fundamentally changing what it means to be a country based on the rule of law. And so people really should, you know, this is not somebody who engages in hyperbole ever.

[E]

Mary, you get the last word.

[D]

Well, I appreciate that. We do spend a lot of time together, Andrew and I, and I do, I think this degrading of the Department of Justice, this is going to have really, really long term impacts. In fact, you know, why would victims of these heinous crimes even want to work with the Department of Justice when they see this is the way that their matters might be handled in the future? And this, the degrading the Department of Justice, that hurts, you know, that hurts justice across the board, not just in these high profile cases. It hurts the relationships with the courts who no longer have faith that what the Department of Justice attorneys say is true and it hurts the rule of law. And people might say, rule of law, what does that even mean? That's what our country's built on. And when that is gone, it takes quite a while to build that back.

[E]

Mary McCordon and Andrew Weissman, I mean, to that point, we'll be covering that if we're lucky enough to see it built back together for years to come. Mary and Andrew, thank you so much for starting us off today. The Rev sticks around. When we come back, there's growing pushback against Donald Trump's mass deportation agenda. And on the front lines of the fight right now, America's faith leaders, including a very unlikely group that is today condemning the Trump administration's crackdown as a, quote, attack on God given human dignity. We'll bring you that reporting next.

[A]

MSNBC presents season two of the Blueprint, hosted by Jen Psaki. In each episode, she talks to leading Democrats about how they plan to win again, including Texas Congressman Greg Cassar, who chairs the Progressive caucus, Congresswoman Sarah McBride of Delaware, the first openly trans person elected to Congress, and more who are helping to shape the future of the party. The Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Season 2, all episodes available now.

[E]

A dramatic clash today outside of Broadview Detention Center. That's the notorious ICE facility in suburban Illinois. It happened during an interfaith vigil led by religious leaders calling for an end to ICE arrests in and around Chicago. Approximately 21 protesters and including religious leaders were arrested during the protest. And four police officers were injured during effort during the scuffle. The vigil was entitled God Demands Freedom. Faith leaders say no more abductions. Law enforcement said that the protesters were unlawfully assembled in the roadway. One faith leader said this to MSNBC about why they were there protesting. We recognize that we have this common understanding that what has been happening is just plain evil. This is, you know, oppression on steroids. This is ridiculous. Our neighbors are being abducted off of the streets in the absence of due process, with people just being snatched without any cause, except for most of the time just being brown and then being lost within a system with no documentation and being in terrible conditions. We're out here because of that. Across faith lines, all of us recognize that to be just plain wrong. It is part of a growing opposition and outcry against Donald Trump's mass deportation policies by faith leaders in America. Earlier this week, America's Catholic bishop, in a rare move, issued a public statement condemning Trump's mass deportation campaign. It's the first of its kind since the year 2013. I want to bring into our coverage pastor of Highland Park Presbyterian Church, the Reverend Quincy Worthington. He was at the protest earlier today. The Reverend Al Sharpton is still here here as well. It's a privilege to be here with both of you. Reverend Worthington, if you could just first take me through the events of what happened today and tell me, help me understand how it escalated in your view. Yeah.

[H]

Thank you, Nicole, and thank you for having me on. I think I'm still trying to process what happened today. Essentially, faith leaders from all throughout the Chicago region, from several different denominations and several different faiths came out today to worship, to witness, to lift our voices and hearts to what we see as a grave injustice, and to deliver a letter to the Broadview Processing center pleading for the ability to give spiritual care to the people inside. That letter was refused and not allowed to be delivered. At that point, clergy took to the street to try to try to deliver that letter by hand. And at that point, they were met with just brutal force by the state police and sheriff's department and multiple police departments.

[E]

Can you describe the brutal force?

[H]

Yeah, there was no chemical munitions this time that I saw, but there was a lot of shoving, beating, protesters, throwing them to the ground, multiple officers on them, knees on necks. I saw a lot of people bloodied. It was kind of hard for me to see what was going on in the midst of the fray. But from watching the videos and talking with people who were more on the outside while it was going on, it was just horrific. People being smashed with batons, repeatedly ripped over barriers. It was. It was devastating.

[E]

Were they saying anything?

[F]

Who?

[E]

The police, the law enforcement? The assault on the protesters, Were they asking protesters to do something that they didn't comply with, or was it just an assault?

[H]

They were trying to clear the road, and once the road was cleared, they kept on wanting us to push back. But at that point, there were so many people there that, at least from where I was standing, there was no room for us to push back any further without trampling or smothering other people. And so we were kind of trapped between a fence and the Illinois State Police, which is one of the problems with this very small, very narrow free speech zone that they've erected for us to exercise our First Amendment rights peacefully in is that oftentimes they give us commands that even if we. That we can't obey because there's not enough room for us to back up any further than where we already are.

[E]

And what kinds of injuries did protesters sustain?

[H]

I've seen a lot of very bad bruises. I've seen people who essentially had their faces smashed in. Like I said, police standing on their, kneeling on their neck and yeah, a lot of bruising and beating. I haven't heard reports back yet from how people are doing or how severe those injuries are, but some of them look pretty substantial from what I saw.

[E]

Unbelievable events taking place in the streets of American cities. A judge has actually weighed in on this facility and the detainees there. I want to talk to both of you about that. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be back on the other side. We're back with the Reverend Worthington, the Reverend Al Sharpton. So rev, this is the legal status as of the detainees kept there. This is in Politico. Judge orders release of more than 300 Operation Midway Blitz detainees. Quote, U.S. district Judge Jeffrey Cummings ordered the Department of justice to release 13 detainees who were rounded up by Immigration and Customs Enforcement in Operation Midway Blitz on Bombay Friday and wants some detailed reports about more than 600 others also being held. Attorneys say as many as 300 of those immigrants are being wrongly held and could be released within days if they have no criminal histories. So it's the brutality of the treatment of protesters. It's the defiance of what seems like a judge's order to release these detainees, at least all of them that he says are being wrongly held and the conditions under which those who are rightly or wrongly being held. It just feels like a stain on.

[F]

Our country and it's really a playbook that we've seen in American history. You know, the civil rights movement, the generation ahead of me, they used the moral leadership of clergy like the clergyman here to demonstrate and dramatize what was going on. And then even in my time, which we're still doing these kinds of things and getting arrested, I've spent nights in jail. But it only heightens people's attention if you do it non violently. If you look at carefully what Reverend here is showing, the violence is coming from law enforcement against ministers that just want to have prayer or just want to do some clergy like or faith based counseling of people. I mean we're talking about we're the United States of America and people can't even get prayer, can't get visits from ministers. And I think the more they are seen doing this to clergymen and defying judges, the more they will say, well wait a minute, who are the illegal people here? If they're saying some of these detainees are not illegal if they're saying people are being profiled just because they're brown or black or speak a different language. And you have our ministers who bring us to God being accosted because they want to come and be clergymen, Catholic bishops. I mean, it's almost becoming too much. And that's where movements usually start working.

[E]

Let me show you the video statement from the American Catholic bishops.

[B]

We are disturbed when we see among our people a climate of fear and anxiety around questions of profiling and immigration enforcement. We are saddened by the state of contemporary debate and the vilification of immigrants.

[C]

We are concerned about the conditions in.

[B]

Detention centers and the lack of access to pastoral care.

[F]

We lament that some immigrants in the United States have arbitrarily lost their legal.

[B]

Status to our immigrant brothers and sisters. We stand with you in your suffering. Since when one member suffers, all suffer. You are not alone. We oppose the indiscriminate mass deportation of people. We pray for an end to dehumanizing rhetoric and violence.

[E]

JD Vance dehumanized all immigrants today when he did an interview and accused them of being to blame for the price of housing in America. They don't seem moved by this plea. What does that do inside our politics when the party in power seems indifferent to a plea from Catholic bishops?

[F]

I think when their indifference is shown, it hardens people's hearts that there's something immoral here, because these are people that stand up for what is moral and what is right. You can't just say it's those of or those that are known, like me, to be activists. You talk about bishops in the Catholic Church. You're talking about people that don't normally go out to any kind of protest. And these are people being mistreated like this, and they're not even being talked to. You're discounting the Vance and the Trump administration is not meeting with faith leaders saying, no, let me explain my position or let me understand what your concern is. They're pushing them around and arresting them. So you are not supposed to do your clergy duty now. What is the country coming to? So to bring both the issues we're dealing with this hour, we're going to hide what's going on with a child trafficker, but we're going to push around clergymen that merely want to give people that are detainees some spiritual strength. This is not the United States, and.

[E]

That'S what people are out there exercising their First Amendment rights to convey. Reverend Worthington, thank you for joining us. Reverend Sharpen, thank you for being here. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Heather Cox Richardson has more subscribers on Substack than anyone else in the world. And you talk to her for a second and it is not hard to understand why her newsletter makes sense of today's political moment better than just about anything else I can consume. She looks at current events as they're happening through a much needed historical lens and wisdom. She is the very best at explaining the world around us as we find it, not as we wish it were. She's a voice of reason. She's an absolute pleasure and delight. And she is my guest on the next episode of the Best People podcast. Take a little listen to our conversation.

[G]

I do like to point out that people forget who Gatsby was, and I think this is really important going forward. Gatsby was a criminal. I mean, yeah, he's the hero of the book in many ways, he's a sympathetic character in the book, but he was a bootlegger during Prohibition. People were dying in that. And he was an acquaintance of the man who in the book reflected the real life version of the man who was alleged to have fixed the 1919 World Series. And they had that party on World Weekend. And so perhaps it was just coincidence that Trump threw a Gatsby party on that weekend. But it certainly seemed to me like if you put that in a novel, the lesson that people were supposed to take from it was that Trump is a gangster. And that considering all the information that is coming out about the way money has been used about the Epstein files, as I say, if that was an accident, it was a hell of an accident. But it certainly seemed to be a message saying, yeah, I'm not just the dictator doing things for you little people, I'm a criminal.

[E]

The rest of our conversation is available for premium subscribers today. It's available for all listeners on Monday. You just scan the QR code on your screen right now to subscribe to MSNBC Premium. As as always, let me know what you think on Blue sky or Instagram. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you all so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are grateful.

[A]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with professor, author and podcaster Scott Gallagher away, I.

[B]

Think there's an opportunity to reframe masculinity in an aspirational way and help young men lean into it.

[A]

The Best people with Nicole Wallace. Listen now for early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple podcasts.