← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"They have shown America what it means to stand up for your neighbors"
00:43:26
Nicolle Wallace on it has been the teachers, the retirees, the clergy, the doctors and nurses of Minnesota who have been the ones to set Trump and his administration back on their heels.
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- [00:00]
Tyler Reddick
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- [00:30]
Alex Wagner
Home to the Rachel Matt Oce Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Learn more at Ms. Now.
- [00:51]
John Heilman
So you're not hopeful that things are.
- [00:52]
Andrew Weissman
Going to be better now?
- [00:53]
Tyler Reddick
Not because of Homan, but because of us, because of Minnesotans.
- [00:57]
Michelle Norris
When they get pissed off, there's no going back. They're pissed off, they're angry.
- [01:03]
Tyler Reddick
You know, you've heard the Minnesota Nice.
- [01:05]
Andrew Weissman
When do we want it?
- [01:08]
Tyler Reddick
They're nice and angry.
- [01:14]
Nicole
Hi again everybody. It's five o'.
- [01:15]
Michelle Norris
Clock.
- [01:15]
Nicole
In New York, our own Alex Tabitt with just one of those many, many nice and angry Minnesotans. My experience is they're nice until they're angry. After a year of humiliating capitulation by the country's richest and most powerful people and law firms and businesses and tech titans to Donald Trump and his authoritarian whims, it has been the Minnesota Nice. The teachers, the retirees, the clergy, the former veterans, the doctors and nurses of Minnesota who have been the ones to set Donald Trump and his entire project back on its heels, providing a roadmap for the rest of all of us and the world really to follow. They have shown America and Americans and the world what it means to stand up for one another, to stand up for their neighbors. They continue to take to the streets even as two of their neighbors, Renee Nicole Goode and Alex Preddy, were killed for doing it. Killed during peaceful protests and as ICE agents have threatened others with the same fate. They have managed to shut down the city with the general strike as hundreds of businesses have stayed closed, workers and students refusing to show up, and thousands of people taking to the streets in sub zero temperatures, the kind that give you frostbite in a matter of minutes to exercise their First Amendment right, to protest that courage, that bravery, that determination seems, thank God, like it might be contagious. Organizers calling for a national general strike shutdown set for this Friday, January 30th. Calls that have been amplified finally by celebrities and athletes, people who have been increasingly breaking their silence and speaking out against Donald Trump's ICE in the wake of what has been happening in Minnesota. Even members of Donald Trump's own political party who have for nine years now marched in lockstep behind him even when it would hurt them or their constituents. They have started the process of breaking with Donald Trump over the killings in Minneapolis. It has all caused Donald Trump, at least publicly, to back up a little bit, a little bit from his hardline tone, his seeming indifference to the loss of life, claiming that agents will now be, quote, more relaxed in Minneapolis, whatever that means. As Adam Serwer puts it, writing in the Atlantic, this quote, every social theory undergirding Trumpism has been broken on the steel of Minnesotan resolve. The multiracial community in Minneapolis was supposed to shatter. It did not. It held until Bovino was forced out of the Twin Cities with his long coat between his legs. In Minnesota, all of the ideological cornerstones of MAGA have been proved false at once. Minnesotans, not the armed thugs of ICE and the Border Patrol, are brave. Minnesotans have shown that their community is socially cohesive because of its diversity and not in spite of it. No matter how many more armed men Donald Trump sends to impose his will on the people of Minnesota, all he can do is accentuate their valor. No application of armed violence can make the men with guns as heroic as the people who chose to stand in their path with empty hands in defense of their neighbors. That is where we start the hour with my friend and colleague, senior political analyst, contributing host on Pod Save America, host of the podcast Runaway Country, Alex Wagner. She is currently in Minneapolis. Also joining us, Puck News senior political columnist, national affairs analyst, our friend John Heilman. And still with us, Minneapolis native senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is still with us. Alex, I start with you. You're there. Does this piece ring true for you in terms of what you're seeing and reporting?
- [05:09]
Alex Wagner
So much so, you know, I started today, Nicole, walking with a parent of a one year old and a four year old who has taken it upon herself to organize a network of over 100 other parents who, who drive teachers to school because they feel that's a bilingual school. A lot of these teachers, all of whom are here legally, feel so threatened by the ice environment in Minnesota, they have developed a parent chauffeur network effectively to get these teachers to school, in some cases to help take care of the children that those teachers have to leave behind at school, at home. They have figured out a way to get Groceries for the teachers. They have figured out a way to have parent patrols on the corners so that if ICE comes once again to this preschool, that the teachers inside, the staff inside, and the students inside are safe. The amount of citizen led safeguarding of the social compact that I have seen in the last 24 hours is extraordinary. At the same time, we're talking about children who now can no longer go outside to play, not just because it's cold, but because teachers do not feel safe outside and they're worried about the safety of students outside. We're talking about classrooms where, where the shades are drawn all day, every day because they don't want ICE agents or border patrol agents peering inside the classrooms. The way in which these raids and these targeted assaults and attacks have changed the life for children, for Christians going to church, for people just trying to go to work, I mean, it is all pervasive in residential neighborhoods and downtown areas of the city alike. You cannot not feel the presence of ICE and Trump's dragnets at the same time. The binding together of this society as a cohesive, united whole in the face of all of this is absolutely exhilarating.
- [07:01]
Nicole
And Alex, where does this feeling that a simple gesture of sort of putting your body between a woman being pepper sprayed or a small child who's afraid because of this law enforcement presence, that you could pay for that act with your life? Where does this, this sort of courage, this action, in spite of the fear, come from?
- [07:26]
Alex Wagner
I think, first of all, there is a sense of community in and around these actions. Nobody feels like they're alone in any of this, right? There are signal chats that are happening all the time. There are text messages and spreadsheets. I mean, there is real organization that people have just developed on their own. And I do believe that gives them strength and courage. But I also think, you know, they think of this as the fight of their lives, right? This is their ability to go worship at a church unencumbered. This is the ability of their children to learn in school, in freedom.
- [07:57]
Nicole
Right?
- [07:58]
Alex Wagner
These are, these are freedoms we took for granted, I think, until Donald Trump was inaugurated again for the second time. And this is the essential fight of our society right now. And so I don't think anybody goes in here half stepping, if you will. You know, they understand the stakes to be as extraordinary as they ever have been in American life.
- [08:18]
Nicole
Michelle, I read from your piece in the last hour. Let me read a little bit more from Adam Sera's piece in the Atlantic. He writes, the federal surge into Minneapolis reflects a series of mistaken MAGA assumptions. The first is the belief that diverse communities aren't possible. Social bonds form among people who have something in common, vance said in a speech last July. If you stop importing millions of foreigners into the country, you allow social cohesion to form naturally. JD Vance's remarks are the antithesis to the neighborism of the Twin Cities, whose people do not share the narcissism of being capable of loving only those who are exactly like them. A second mega assumption is that the left is insincere in its values and that principles of inclusion and unity are superficial forms of virtue. Signaling and in Trump's defense, this has turned out to be true of many liberals in positions of power university administrators, attorneys at White Shoe law firms, political leaders. But it is not true of millions of ordinary Americans who have poured into the streets in protest, spoken out against the administration, and in Minnesota, resisted armed men en masse at the cost of their own life.
- [09:29]
Michelle Norris
Nicole I want to add to what Alex had just said about the spirit of Minnesota. You know, leading up to this, there's some under beneath that, there's a foundation that I think led to what we're seeing flourish in the state of Minnesota. And part of, part of that is Minnesotans have opened their arms to refugees for decades now, going back to World War II. Part of it is its history of union organizing and progressive political movements. Part of it is it's just so cold in the state of Minnesota that you just have to rely on mutual aid in some way. And, you know, surviving a Minnesota winter is not a solo game, so people naturally look out for each other. And we're talking about what's happening in the city, in the cities. I just always want to remind people that this is happening all throughout the state. And the rest of the state of Minnesota is fairly conservative. Donald Trump won 80 of 87 counties in Minnesota. And even in places like that, where people supported Donald Trump and maybe supported his immigration policies, are really rethinking this now because of the tactics that they're using. And instead of dividing people, it is forcing people to realize how much they rely on the fellow employees at the meatpacking plants in the southern part of the state and the people who work in agribusiness who pick the corn, corn and the beets, the sugar beets and the wheat and everything else that is grown in Minnesota. Instead of dividing people, it has really united people. And there is when Alex talks about a spirit of joy, there's something else there. Minnesota's really the winners in Minnesota are long and hard and they're often lonely. And that's why they have so many festivals. They have a real festival culture to get people to step outside and, you know, zany sledding contests and ice sculptures and things like that. This is. This taps into that kind of energy. You know, people who normally would be spending a lot more time inside are outside now and are stepping up in all kinds of ways. And most of it we don't see on social media. Most of it we don't see on the news because it's this very granular patchwork of signup sheets and text messages and people who decide on the way home. I was at a church and there are people who were working at a food bank and their parents, you know, when the kids are in the corner doing homework on the floor because they decided before they go home after picking up the kids, they're going to stop and package a few packages that then can be delivered to somebody who's too afraid to go outside. Some of this is just, you know, spontaneity that's at work where people are just deciding that they want to become part of something that they will be telling their kids and their kids will be telling their kids, and history books will be recording this moment because the people of Minnesota in some ways are helping to determine the kind of America that we all will live in.
- [12:04]
Nicole
John Heilman. We are hard on powerful people who don't use their power to speak up for our democracy. Bruce Springsteen is an example of the opposite of that. He always has chosen to speak out when others were silent. He's used his performances and his platform to speak out against this administration since the beginning. He has written a song for Minneapolis. He said this quote, I wrote the song on Saturday, recorded it yesterday, and released it to you today in response to the state terror being visited on the city of Minneapolis. It is dedicated to the people of Minneapolis, our innocent immigrant neighbors, and in memory of Alex Preddy and Renee Goode. Stay free and let me play a little bit of it for you.
- [12:57]
Tyler Reddick
Trump's federal thugs beat up on his face and his chest. Then we heard the gunshots and Alex pretty laying the snow, dead. Their claim was self defense, sir, just don't believe your eyes. It's our blood and bones and these whistles and foams against Miller and Gnome's dirty lies O' er Minneapolis I hear your voice crying through the bloody mist we'll remember the names of those who.
- [13:44]
John Heilman
Died on the streets of Minneapolis.
- [13:51]
Nicole
You know, importantly, he pulls out this piece that has really seeped into culture and now seems immune from their lies. People are being asked to quote, don't believe your eyes, your thoughts.
- [14:05]
John Heilman
Well, first of all, that's my guy. I love it when Bruce steps up and how many of us could. I wrote it on Saturday. I recorded it yesterday. And here it is. Brill testament to ability. He's. I mean, there's ways in which he's just an unfathomable genius. But I find myself as a fan, thinking about the fact that Bruce has done. Is known for doing social commentary and songs and has done some protest songs in the past. You know, there. And they've been typically been more kind of oblique and more general in the sense that you do a song like Youngstown Born in the USA is the classic example, is a howling protest song about. About Vietnam that people thought was a celebration of America. That's how oblique it was. He did a song when. When, when. When Diallo was shot in New York City, did a shot called. A song called American skin, 41 shots. That was about the most direct, really identifiable, pinpoint kind of protest song. So I was sort of stunned. I knew this. I heard the song was coming. I turned it on. And the fact that he's name checking Donald Trump, he later in the song name checks Stephen Miller. It tells you about how much Bruce's passion is stirred and how. And how he. The depth of his feeling about this that he has decided to come out not with just a song from Minneapolis, not just a song about this issue or. Or the times we live in, but a song that's such a direct broadside on. On this administration, on the people who are in it, obviously foremost Donald Trump, but even the people who work below him. And I think it's. It's a sign of the times that. That he's. That he's taken. That he's been this direct with his voice about this song. And I do think that it gets into this moment we're having here, Nicole, where it is. You know, I think maybe a little bit too early to say it's a turning point in the administration's policy. We've seen some cosmetic changes. We don't know what this means for tomorrow, let alone for the days, weeks, months ahead for other cities, other states that could be in the crosshairs of the administration. But in terms of the broader cultural picture, you know, you've been talking about it on the show the last few days. We're seeing now a kind of. This has permeated the culture in a way that nothing else has in Trump 2.0, where people who normally are very loath to speak out or speaking out, I don't want to call that courage because compared to what people are doing on the streets of Minneapolis every day, it's not courage. It's really just speaking the truth. But it's certainly to be commended. And if we have finally crossed some kind of Rubicon of the culture now where there's going to be more of that, it can't help but help. How much I don't know, but it can't help but help.
- [16:47]
Nicole
Yeah, I mean, Helmut, I just think it's our job to chronicle it. Right. And people will decide on their own if it's courage, if it's following. And like you, I don't care what it is, if it helps. I think it's an important thing to chronicle and to note. But this and Eric, I interviewed Eric Holder today and he said we are slow to arouse, but we are aroused. And it may be that also that people are alert now. They are paying attention, they are calling it out. And again, Bruce is in a different category because he always has. But I wonder what you make of, you know, I interviewed Doc Rivers about eight months ago and I said, is the league, are the younger players less passionate than LeBron and Steph Curry were about things like voting rights? He said, no, they're young and they haven't seen an example yet of where politics affects them. NBA Players association was, I think, the first professional sports league out with a statement almost in the immediate aftermath of the killing of Alex Preddy. You've now got sports and athletes using their platforms, using it thoughtfully, rooted in the facts, things that people can see with their own eyes. I wonder what you think the next move is from Donald Trump who seems to be under the either delusion or honest belief that he's the guy winning culture.
- [18:06]
John Heilman
I don't, you know, he always me ask me to predict things. Nicole. I'm always kind of quoting my, my, my league, my most favorite political plus for Yogi Berra, who said it's that prediction is always difficult, especially about the future. But so I thought predicting Donald Trump is a real suckers game. I do think that, you know, the words that Trump says more often than any other words in the White House, literally any other words in the White House to his, the aides and people around him is how's it playing? He's constantly checking in with people about how things are playing. And, and, and you think that that means he's checking into what the broader culture is saying about him. It's, it's not usually what he really wants to know is how it's playing with his people. He wants to know how it's playing with, in his, in his, his corners of the media, his corners with social media. And I think one of the things that you've seen telling this week was Stephen Miller starting to. Trying to. He's throwing people under the bus on his ways, but he decided, put that statement out that basically said, well, maybe this I didn't have all the facts about, about whether this person was in fact a domestic terrorist or not. Again, throwing others under the bus in the process. But that's a sign that someone who's not usually affected by mainstream political opinion is starting to feel it. And I think some of that is because it's starting to come from the right, because you're starting to see people like Thom Tillis and people like Senator Murkowski calling for Kristi Noem to step down. You're starting to hear, you know, the rumblings of the, of the, of the gun rights movement. All of that is still not as deafening as we would all like it to be. But you can, you can see cause and effect. The Trump is not, does not have his footing on this issue right now. And I think it's because, not just because we didn't care about Bruce Springsteen, but, you know, you'll remember he put up a tweet at one point with someone like hitting Springsteen in the back of the head with a golf ball. That was an AI thing. So he doesn't care about Bruce Springsteen. He doesn't care about, about Scott Galloway. He doesn't care about Ed Norton. But he does care about this kind of gathering sense that that is seeping out of what he thinks of as the liberal opposition in blue America. It's seeping out into red America, too. And, you know, here's when he hears Sean Hannity or here's Joe Rogan, that registers with Trump. And I think that we're seeing some signs not of dramatic reversal, but that he's attuned to the fact that the part of the culture he thinks he understands is in modest ways at least starting to back away from him on this particular issue.
- [20:40]
Nicole
Yeah. And it deserves some more reporting. But I think back away is an understatement in terms of sort of Shane Gillis and Joe Rogan and Theoban. Some of the folks in the manosphere, he may think are still with him, are very much mocking him. Not behind his back, but on their airwaves. Heilman sticks around. Alex Wagner, thank you for starting us off today and thank you for for being there and joining us from there. Michelle, thank you for joining us across two hours. When we come back, the Trump administration, as John said, is under increasing pressure after federal agents shot and killed Renee, Nicole Good and Alexander Petty on the streets of Minneapolis. This pressure comes as Democratic senators are now digging in and feeling the wind at their backs in terms of public opinion. They're now refusing to fund the Department of Homeland Security, even if that means another government shutdown. We'll talk to Senator Tim Kaine about that. Also ahead for us, Donald Trump is still trying desperately to prove to anyone who will listen to him that he didn't lose the 2020 presidential election, which he lost bigly. It might explain why the FBI under Kash Patel today is searching the election office in Fulton County, Georgia. We'll bring you that story later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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- [23:30]
Nicole
Kristi Noem, the country's homeland Security secretary, appears to be pulling out all the stops to save her job. As bipartisan criticism mounts and calls for her resignation grow louder after backlash to Noem's callous remarks calling Alex Preddy a domestic terrorist. Democrats are threatening to shut down the government if major changes are not made at DHS. Nearly 2/3 of House Democrats have signed on to impeachment proceedings of Kristi Noem. And Arizona Senator Ruben Gallego has gone a step further, threatening to vote to withhold funding of DHS if Trump does not fire Stephen Miller. We're back with John Heilman. John Heilman, I thought one of the sort of mile markers into our descent into madness and sadistic politics were that shooting a dog in the face used to be the fodder of oppo research, something someone would have known about, sought to verify, and then deployed against someone. The sign that sort of Trump had changed our politics was that Kristi Noem wrote that anecdote in her own book about herself shooting her frisky puppy in the face. As a sign of what? I don't know. But I remembered Mitt Romney having to deal with weeks of bad press because they had put Seamus in a crate on the roof of a car. Yeah, yeah. Your thoughts about the character of the people running this agency?
- [25:01]
John Heilman
Well, my thoughts are, Nicole, you and I, both dog lovers. And so I was one of those people who thought that putting Seamus on the roof of the car was probably disqualifying. But I can understand some people say maybe not disqualifying, maybe not just quite. I understand those who say, well, you know, Seamus was, was having fun up there in the, in the, I mean, I, look, I thought it was horrible, but, but I understand that for some people, it didn't rise to the level of disqualifying for president, but people treated it like it was, you know, you remember Romney, like, if you think about things that beat Mitt Romney or that were most focused on in advertising by both his Republican rivals and by his Democratic opponent, Barack Obama. There was a lot of discussion about Seamus on the roof of the car, along with the, the car elevator and a few other things from that 2012 campaign. You know, and then you have Kristi Noem. I think she put it, it wasn't a mistake. And I think she put that anecdote in her book because she thought it signified that she was tough and that she was a hard ass and that she wasn't overly humane and that she was the kind of person who was willing to, quote, do what it takes to deal with the problems and the unpleasant things that we need to deal with. I'm putting all of that in kind of scare quotes and in the most sardonic voice I can muster. And look, you know, it did not deter Donald Trump from putting her in the job that she wanted. In fact, it got her the job that she wanted. And she's been running around the country for the last year, you know, in these highly protected environments where she claims that she has threats against her. And so she's living high on the hog in Washington, D.C. in some very expensive taxpayer funded housing, is my understanding. And so I think the fact that the anecdote about shooting your puppy in the face was not something really that was that she was proud of. She thought it would be a credential. It was a credential. And everything about how she's run the Department of Homeland Security suggests that what that promised is what she was going to deliver. And until Minneapolis, it looked like Donald Trump was well pleased with it. Maybe not so much now, though.
- [27:08]
Nicole
John and I are joined by Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. He serves on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Senator, you join a conversation in progress about the sadistic nature of a person who would feel so proud of the act of shooting a puppy in the face that she or he would write about it in their own biography. That is the character of the person in charge of the agency whose agents have shot and killed two US citizens 17 days apart. What is the status of that vote on Friday for DHS funding?
- [27:47]
Tyler Reddick
The vote will fail because every Democrat is going to oppose the funding bill that's currently pending before the Senate until the Republicans agree to strip the DHS bill out and move forward on the five funding bills that will get enough votes to go to the president's desk. This can be done if the majority leader, John Thune, just offers an amendment. We can split the bill and then we will both pass the funding for the Pentagon, for education, for health care and critical priorities, but then focus on the need for the dramatic reforms of the abuses that we're seeing within dhs.
- [28:27]
Nicole
Why wasn't the story that Kristi Noem tells in her own voice, in her own writing, about shooting her own dog enough to give you pause about her character? Why did you vote to confirm Christine Ohm?
- [28:38]
Tyler Reddick
Anybody who's been a governor, especially a governor who's elected a couple of times can be a Cabinet secretary. I knew she was going to be confirmed. I have eight and a half million constituents that need services every day from the Department of Homeland Security. I wish it were not the case that Cabinet secretaries Hold it against your constituents if you vote against them. But this is real life. I sure wouldn't vote for her now. She's done a horrible job. And I think I have some credibility in making that claim because I was willing to vote for her as a governor. As you know, I was a governor. I think governors often make really good cabinet secretaries. I did cast that vote for her. The administration would be doing itself a huge favor if they got rid of her and Steve Miller right now. They would really help themselves out if they ditched both of them.
- [29:30]
Nicole
Trump has turned immigration into a vulnerability. It was once viewed as a Republican advantage issue. His approval rating, I think, on immigration is as low as or lower than his approval on the economy, which is also in the mid-30s. How are Democrats now thinking about turning this issue into an advantage for them?
- [29:58]
Tyler Reddick
Well, I think the issue, before we get to the politics, is we just want the abuse to stop. You know, you don't have to be a spiritual person that when somebody named Good is shot and killed on the streets in cold blood, it should make the nation step back and ask themselves the question, what the hell is going on? And so before we think about how Democrats should deal with this, let's just deal with the abuses that are right on the, on the page, right before us. I was a mayor and I had a police force. I was a governor. I had a Virginia state police force. This is not the way law enforcement should operate under any circumstance. There needs to be accountability. There needs to be clear rules and training. Why are federal law enforcement agents now subject to standards lower than town police forces all across Virginia and all across the nation? Why does the administration immediately, when there's an instance of violence like this, start to lie dramatically about the victims, calling them domestic terrorists or would be assassins? The scale of the lie is proportionate to the depth of the shame or the guilt you feel when something like this happens. I think a dam has broken with this administration's incompetence and cruelty. And I think it's not only the American public that sees it, but people around the world are seeing this and thinking, this isn't just Donald Trump, this is America. Unless we do something to demonstrate otherwise, and I believe that we will.
- [31:33]
Nicole
Speaking of governors, Governor Josh Shapiro was on this program yesterday and said he believes that state attorneys general should be charging federal agents. Do you agree with that and do you support that? And which ones would you like to see charged?
- [31:47]
Tyler Reddick
Well, absolutely. Anybody who breaks the law should be held accountable. And, you know, here's standard operating procedure Nicole, in most communities in this country, if there's an officer involved in an officer involved shooting, they get put on administrative leave right away. Not as a prejudgment that they want are wrong, but until an independent investigation is done. The Trump administration has instead immediately tried to come out and vindicate the officers before there was an investigation and spread the most scurrilous lies about the people that they have killed or shot. So let's insist upon standards that hold these officers to the same standards that local and state officials. Officials have. Yeah, I don't think I can just freelance the name six people that should be prosecuted, but absolutely, state and local prosecutors should have the tools at their disposal to go after anybody who violates the law, including officials of these DHS agencies.
- [32:49]
Nicole
Senator, thank you for joining us on these stories today.
- [32:52]
Alex Wagner
Absolutely.
- [32:53]
Nicole
Continue and we appreciate you. When we come back, the latest example of the FBI under cash flow Patel's leadership acting on Donald Trump's long list of political grievances. What we know what is being reported about today's FBI search of the elections headquarters in Fulton County, Georgia. That's next.
- [33:20]
John Heilman
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- [34:13]
Alex Wagner
Month home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more voices you know and trust. Msnow is your source for news, opinion and the world. Our name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress and the truth that you've relied on for decades. We'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions and explain how it impacts you.
- [34:38]
Nicole
Ms. Now. Same mission, new name.
- [34:41]
Alex Wagner
Learn more at Ms. Now.
- [34:45]
Nicole
Another sign today that the FBI under KASH Patel has been remade to serve Donald Trump's political missions and to eke out revenge for his grievances. The FBI executed a search at Fulton county elections offices near Atlanta earlier today. An agency spokesperson confirmed that they were carrying out a, quote, court authorized law enforcement action. The search appears to be in connection with Donald Trump's claim that Fulton County's handling of the 2020 election was somehow riddled with fraud, despite the fact that his fraud claims have been investigated over and over and over again, including by Trump, supported Republicans in the state and repeatedly debunked Donald Trump's fraud claims were based on election night security footage from State Farm Arena. But as the Atlanta Journal Constitution pointed out, quote, investigators found the video showed only normal ballot counting. And two Fulton county election workers featured in the video won a $148 million defamation verdict against former Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani, who played a central role in spreading the false allegations. I want to bring into our coverage former top DOJ official legal analyst Andrew Weissman. John is still here. Andrew Weissman, the confounding part of the story is that a judge approved this search. What do you think it's about?
- [36:07]
Andrew Weissman
Well, one thing I think people need to remember is that to get a search warrant, it is true that a judge has to sign off on it. But the standard is very low. It is probable cause. That is, there's no exact percentage, but say roughly 20% chance that you will find evidence of a crime at that location. So it's a relatively low standard. And also the presentation to the judge is one sided. It is only the government that's able to be heard. What we don't know is what evidence was presented and we don't really know why. Now, if it relates to the 2020 election, I at least am quite skeptical about why is it coming up now. What is new that would lead them to have any sort of evidence. And it's worth remembering that the people who are doing the voting of the counting of the votes and overseeing that were Republicans. In other words, starting with Brad Raffensperger on down, the people who were doing this were sort of Republican loyalists. So it's not like they, you know, wanted to see Trump lose. They just had a duty to their oath of office not to, if you remember, find votes for Donald Trump. And so the real issue here is whether there's any bear there. But there's lots of reasons to be very skeptical if this relates to the 2020 election.
- [37:49]
Nicole
I mean, Andrew, the other thing that is happening right now in this very news cycle is that Attorney General Pam Bondi seemed to link agents leaving the state of Minnesota in exchange for Minnesota's voter file. I think there are 20 states that DOJ, they're suing DOJ because they've asked for the voter information. This seems to be an aggressive, aggressive DOJ move to access sensitive voter information.
- [38:16]
Andrew Weissman
Absolutely. That is right. And it is being reported in the New York Times two other things that there was a civil effort by the Department of Justice to get those records that have been rebuffed and also a civil effort to get access to the ballots that have been rebuffed. And it this may or may not be related, but it's also been reported in the New York Times that the head of the FBI in Atlanta was fired just in the last few days. All of that seems, you know, these could be coincidences, but there really is a substantial question about we're in 2026. This is supposed to be something about a 2020 election where we're supposed to believe that something just came up. And this is not an administration, as we have seen, where judges accord them the presumption of regularity. That would be the case for any normal Republican or Democratic administration because the administration has been found repeatedly by judges, Republican, Democrat, including judges appointed by Donald Trump in his first term, have been found, to put it politely, as one of the judges appointed by Donald Trump said, say things that are untethered to the facts. That's a polite way of saying that.
- [39:48]
Nicole
They'Re lying or as Bill Barr calls it, bs. I want to ask both of you what I was asking Senator Kaine about there. Governor Shapiro on this program yesterday said that if he was attorney general, he was attorney general before he was governor, he would charge, he said he'd charge voluntary manslaughter of the federal agents who killed Alex Preddy. I want to ask you about that. On the other side of a break. Andrew Weisman, stay with.
- [40:28]
John Heilman
I base this only on publicly available.
- [40:31]
Andrew Weissman
Video and information I'm seeing.
- [40:33]
John Heilman
I do not have the background that.
- [40:36]
Andrew Weissman
General Ellison has in Minnesota, but based.
- [40:39]
John Heilman
On what I saw of the killing of Mr. Peretti, I charge voluntary manslaughter. In that case, I would charge obstruction of justice. And if the federal government was coerced, coordinating the effort to obstruct justice and to destroy the crime scene, I charge conspiracy. I mean, I think we have to.
- [40:58]
Andrew Weissman
Be very serious about not only a state investigation, but to follow that where.
- [41:04]
John Heilman
It leads and to bring charges even.
- [41:06]
Andrew Weissman
Against federal officials if they are warranted.
- [41:10]
Nicole
We're back With Andrew and John, I mean, Andrew, there is this sort of jolt of people waking up in terms of the public's reaction to Donald Trump that to me felt like a jolt in terms of, of the prerogatives and authorities of states attorneys general. Do you agree with Governor Shapiro and would you charge the officers involved in the killing of Alex Preddy with involuntary manslaughter?
- [41:37]
Andrew Weissman
Let's also add in Renee Good, because I think you have to look at both of them. Look, I'm not going to prejudge a full investigation. We don't have the full autopsies, we don't have the ballistics. But let me not of duck that because I do think that the governor is right to be focused on obstruction and a conspiracy to obstruct. And with respect to what could be not just involuntary, but sort of an intentional killing, there's these are the two things that I would really focus on in the Renee Good matter. There were three shots fired. There is no good reason that's been offered by anyone as to why there was the second and third shot as she is already past Agent Ross. There's no danger to him whatsoever. And according to the one autopsy we know about, it's one of those second or third shots that killed her. So that to me is, I don't see a defense to that. With respect to Alex Preddy, we all have seen the video where he's shot multiple times even as he's lying defenseless on the ground. Again, just like with respect to Ms. Good, don't see any basis whatsoever at that point for that to be going on and it could be even earlier. So I think there's substantial reasons to be investigating. I do agree that federal officers commit state crimes. They should be held to account just like anyone else.
- [43:10]
Nicole
Heilman, you get the last word on the moment we're in. It does feel like these, you and I have been having these conversations for years, but about Donald Trump and his second presidency on at least a weekly basis. This moment does feel markedly different from any other in the second term.
- [43:31]
John Heilman
It does, Nicole, and for the reasons we were talking about before where the torpor. I guess people get mad at me sometimes when I say that after the 2024 election there was a period, and I would say that period has gone on for quite a long time, in which a lot of people who were very active members of the self styled Trump Resistance and Trump 1.0 decided in their state of disappointment and exhaustion, decided that they were going to tune out Trump 2.0 and some of them paid a little bit of attention and they knew things were getting worse and they understood that Trump 2.0 was worse than Trump 1.0. A lot of people were kind of beaten into submission a little bit. And what I think what we're seeing now is that moment is over. And I think if there's a metaphorical corner that's been turned, it's that a lot of the people who have never been pro Trump but were kind of sent into a fit of despond over what was happening in Trump 2.0 are now awake again and are back and they're off the metaphorical couch and they're ready. They understand the stakes and what it requires them requires of them if they're going to beat the moment. I think that's, that's the Rubicon that's been crossed, I think in the broader culture. And I won't predict where it get where it's going to go, but I'll tell you that an engaged resistance to Donald Trump is essential if we're going to get through this.
- [45:02]
Nicole
Yeah. And that the example is decidedly off the couch, in the streets, in the cold is important too. John Helman, Andrew Weissman, thank you both my friends for joining me here today. An update on a story we brought you last hour about that five year old Minnesota boy named Liam being held at an immigration detention center in Texas. We'll be back in a moment with that. An update to story we brought you in the last hour. Congressman Joaquin Castro and a group of Democrats held press conference moments ago after visiting the immigration detention center where 5 year old Liam Ramos is being held with his father. Here's what Castro said about his visit.
- [45:53]
John Heilman
He said his father said that Liam has been sleeping a lot, that he's been asking about his family, his mom and his classmates and saying that he wants to go be back in school with his classmates. He's asked about his backpack and his cap that he was wearing when they picked him up in Minnesota. I let him know that his school and his community, his family and our country love him and we're praying for him.
- [46:25]
Nicole
Five year old Liam Ramos there another break for us. We'll be right back. Susan Rice is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. She offers insights you won't hear anywhere else on everything that we cover here on the show. What is happening in our country and in our world. You can watch the conversation on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen right now or you can listen to it wherever you get your podcast. Thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
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