“This inflection point for America”

Summary

Podcast Summary: “This Inflection Point for America”

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Date: October 8, 2025
Episode Theme:
This episode unfolds against the dramatic backdrop of former FBI Director Jim Comey’s arraignment on criminal charges, an event that Wallace and her guests frame as symbolic of a profound shift—and threat—to the rule of law and American democracy. The conversation tracks the legal maneuvers, the unprecedented nature of current events, and the wider, chilling implications for U.S. institutions, culminating in an urgent discussion about the erosion of foundational democratic norms.

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Main Theme Overview

Nicolle Wallace anchors an urgent discussion about the unprecedented arraignment of Jim Comey, exploring the case’s legal nuances, the political climate under Donald Trump, the dismantling of institutional safeguards, and the acute pressure facing American democracy at this pivotal "inflection point."
Throughout, guests provide historical, legal, and moral context, culminating in a reflection with Ken Burns and Jeffrey Goldberg about the American experiment’s fragility and unfinished promise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Jim Comey Arraignment—A Legal and Political Earthquake

• Defiance in the courtroom: Jim Comey, represented by renowned attorney Patrick Fitzgerald, pleads not guilty to charges of lying to Congress and obstruction, as Acting U.S. Attorney Lindsey Halligan leads the prosecution, following a controversial appointment by Donald Trump.
• Legal strategy: Comey’s team signals intent to challenge Halligan’s appointment and claim malicious, selective prosecution.
• Unusual prosecution dynamics:
  • Glenn Thrush reports a stark experience/legal imbalance in court:

    “If you were uninitiated and didn't have a roster to look at, you would think that the defense was the prosecution and the prosecution was the defense.” (05:40)

  • Fitzgerald requests details still missing from the indictment, underscoring the irregular nature of the process.
• Judicial skepticism:
  • The presiding judge (a Biden appointee) is described as “extraordinarily skeptical” of the prosecution’s case and eager to fast-track proceedings to avoid undue cloud over Comey.
  • On attempts to introduce classified evidence, the judge pushes back:

    “Why? This doesn't seem like it's that complicated a case.” (06:54)

2. The Substance (or Lack Thereof) of the Case Against Comey

• Allegations: Glenn Thrush clarifies that both counts center on whether Comey lied during Senate testimony regarding authorized leaks to the press. Penalties carry up to 5 years, but actual jail time deemed unlikely. (07:47)
• Lack of particulars: Comey’s defense claims they still lack specifics about the core evidence and individuals referenced in the indictment.
• Prosecution as retribution: Trump’s public calls for Comey’s indictment, firing of previous prosecutors, and Halligan’s controversial installation are debated as evidence of the case being motivated by personal vengeance over legal merit.

3. Institutional Retaliation and Its Consequences

• Purging expertise:
  • Wallace and guests describe a systematic, loyalty-driven cleansing of the DOJ and FBI’s top ranks, including the firing or reassignment of experienced agents to lower-priority duties (like immigration enforcement).
  • Alex Wagner underscores:

    “I do worry, even if this case goes nowhere, what are the long and medium term effects over at the FBI and the Department of Justice?... There's a chilling effect... That's not good for the country.” (19:39)

• Impact on rule of law:
  • The consensus is that these moves "decapitate" institutional expertise, deter future accountability, and weaken national security, leaving the country exposed to both domestic and international threats.

4. Republican Party Complicity and Political Culture

• Willful abdication:
  • Guests lament Republicans’ refusal to act as a check on Trump, allowing an ethos of “man over country” to dominate.
  • Wagner bitterly observes:

    “They've chosen a man over country, and this is the clearest example of that yet.” (27:50)

• Broader consequences:
  • Selective prosecution and politicization of law enforcement send a warning to career officials: loyalty counts more than law, discouraging them from holding power to account.

5. The Democracy–Autocracy Tipping Point: Context from Ken Burns & Jeffrey Goldberg

• America “crossing a line”:
  • America is experiencing a “profoundly different” moment, with democratic institutions under attack, troops on the streets, and Trump’s consolidation of power.
  • Rachel Maddow (quoted):

    “We now live in a country that has an authoritarian leader in charge.” (35:45)

  • Ken Burns:

    “We have a consolidating dictatorship in our country.” (35:51)

• Reverence for founding principles—but urgent warnings:
  • The episode discusses the Atlantic’s special issue on the unfinished American experiment, highlighting the founders’ intent for legislative oversight—a role Congress is now shirking to existential peril.
  • Ken Burns:

    “If the founders miraculously arrived here, [...] they would be shocked that Congress had abdicated theirs [power].” (44:31)

• Suggestions for repair:
  • Both guests urge citizens not to succumb to despair, but to “act in the places where we can act” (Burns), including voting, peaceful protest, and civil engagement.
  • Burns, quoting Frederick Douglass:

    “Agitate, agitate, agitate.” (51:25)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the spectacle and imbalance at Comey’s arraignment:

  “Comey came into court with Patrick Fitzgerald, his attorney. He's not just any attorney... And at the defendants’ table was Lindsey Halligan and these two fellows… If you were uninitiated [...] you would think the defense was the prosecution.”
  – Glenn Thrush (05:17)

• On the tenuousness of the independent judiciary:

  “I believe in our judiciary… That independent judiciary is alive and well and gives me great comfort.”
  – Chris O'Leary (14:02)

• On the likely weakness of the perjury charge:

  “The reason you don’t charge it that often is it’s often a he said, she said… When you read the indictment, there is no substance to it.”
  – Chris O'Leary (17:06)

• On the broader threat to U.S. governance:

  “He wants to punish these people and set an example. And I do worry, even if this case goes nowhere, what are the long and medium term effects over at the FBI and the Department of Justice?...”
  – Alex Wagner (19:40)

• On the loss of meaning for the rule of law:

  “They've chosen a man over country, and this is the clearest example of that yet.”
  – Alex Wagner (27:50)

• On Congress’s abdication:

  “They would be shocked that Congress had abdicated theirs.”
  – Ken Burns (44:31)

• On the job of the legislature:

  “Why would you want a job and then not do it? Especially when it’s outlined for you in the Constitution... Make sure the executive doesn’t become a tyrant.”
  – Jeffrey Goldberg (46:10)

• On what’s needed now:

  “Our work right now is in repair and restoration. That’s what we need to be dedicated to.”
  – Ken Burns (45:48)

• Call to action:

  “Agitate, agitate, agitate.”
  – Frederick Douglass, quoted by Ken Burns (51:25)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:40: Wallace introduces the Comey case, sets up stakes for the rule of law.
• 05:17: Thrush details the courtroom dynamic, prosecution’s inexperience.
• 07:47: Thrush explains specifics, or lack thereof, in the indictment.
• 09:02: Pathways for legal challenges outlined; judge splits motions (validity of Halligan’s appointment and selective prosecution).
• 13:51–14:45: O’Leary discusses trust in the judiciary and the foundational importance of the independent courts.
• 17:06–18:00: O’Leary on the rarity and fragility of the “false statements” charge.
• 19:39–21:06: Wagner elaborates on purges and long-term consequences for agencies.
• 24:44–32:35: Discussion about the purging of FBI expertise and lack of Republican dissent.
• 35:29: Wallace, Burns, Goldberg start broader reflection on democracy’s “inflection point.”
• 38:08: Burns on repair, national narrative, and drawing inspiration from history.
• 40:23: Goldberg discusses the founders’ pessimism, checks and balances.
• 43:55–47:05: Further analysis of military deployments in domestic affairs and Congressional inaction.
• 50:43–51:33: Final reflections, optimism, and the need for agitation and active citizenship.

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Conclusion

This episode is steeped in alarm but also in historical perspective, capturing a nation at a crossroads. From the Comey arraignment and the evident politicization of justice, to purges within the FBI and the open erosion of checks and balances, the conversation paints an urgent picture of democracy under siege. Burns and Goldberg urge faith in civic action, history, and, above all, the continuation of the “unfinished project” that is American democracy.

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For More:

• Atlantic’s “The Unfinished” issue
• Ken Burns’s PBS documentary “The American Revolution”
• MSNBC’s and NBC’s continuing coverage

(If you missed the episode, this summary provides a comprehensive, timestamped overview of the urgency, stakes, and moral questions discussed by Nicolle Wallace and her expert guests.)

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. Defiance today from a lifelong public servant and former director of the FBI turned criminal defendant whose very case symbolizes the perversion of the rule of law in America under Donald Trump. This former FBI Director Jim Comey pleaded not guilty in court today to two criminal counts, one for lying to Congress, the other for obstruction. The judge scheduling his trial expected to last two to three days for January 5, 2026. But before that happened, Comey's attorney says expect a flurry of motions. Comey's lawyer saying that he plans to challenge every aspect of this case. They even plan to challenge the appointment of Acting U.S. attorney Lindsey Halligan. She was put in place by Donald Trump after her predecessor, the previous acting U.S. attorney, Eric Siebert, refused to bring a criminal case against Jim Comey and against New York Attorney General Tish James, New York Times reporting this quote the issue is that when there is a vacancy in the position. The attorney general is able to install someone as an interim U.S. attorney for 120 days. But after that expires, the law says a federal court can decide who next serves as interim. If the indictment is thrown out on the grounds that Halligan is not a valid US Attorney, it is hard to see how the case could be revived. Her appointment is central to the other argument that Comey's legal team intends to make, that his prosecution is a case of malicious and selective prosecution by the Trump administration. Donald Trump's push to prosecute Jim Comey didn't take place behind closed doors or over texts or signal messages or hushed private conversations. It was done in public. It was out there for everyone to see. On September 20, Donald Trump posted this quote, what about Comey? Adam Shifty, Schiff, Letitia, three question marks. They're all guilty as hell, but nothing is going to be done, end quote. Then Trump said he fired the prosecutor who refused to bring the case against Jim Comey. Then he suggested a new US Attorney, his former personal attorney, Lindsey Halligan. She was sworn in two days later. Halligan then had to present the case against Comey on her own. No one reportedly went with her. Halligan is now bringing in assistant US Attorneys from other offices to help her prosecute the case against Jim Comey. New York Times reports that Comey's attorney, Patrick Fitzgerald, told the court that they have very few details still about what the case is. Quote, we still have not been told who person three and person one are, he said, referring to the indictment. He later added, quote, we still haven't been told precisely what is in count one or count two, end quote. But Trump's public and furious push for an indictment may be the set of facts that matters most to what happens next. The arraignment of former FBI Director Jim Comey, marking the start of a hugely significant turn for our country, as well as a legal battle with enormous stakes for the rule of law in America. That's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times Justice Department reporter Glenn Thrush is here, my friend and colleague MSNBC senior political analyst and contributing host of podsave America, Alex Wagner is here. And with me at the table, retired FBI agent MSNBC national security and intelligence analyst Chris o' Leary is back. Glenn, take me through the reporting on what transpired this morning.

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, if President Trump and his allies had intended to humiliate Jim Comey and humble him, it didn't work out the way that they had expected. Essentially, what happened is Comey came into court with Patrick Fitzgerald, his attorney. He's not just any attorney. Patrick Fitzgerald is one of the most storied ex prosecutors in the history of the Justice Department. He's brought and won major terrorism and corruption, public corruption cases. And at the defendants table was Lindsey Halligan and these two fellows that got brought in yesterday from North Carolina. And the dynamic was extraordinary. If you were uninitiated and didn't have a roster to look at, you would think that the defense was the prosecution and the prosecution was the defense. You had at one table you had Comey, who is not only the FBI director, people forget that he also ran sdny, the most powerful, the most powerful office in theoffice in the Department of Justice against these two guys who have been in the department for less than five years each, and Halligan, who did not, I think, rather wisely say a word in this hearing. So it was this very strange juxtaposition of these two very confident and competent veteran Justice Department people against their inquisitors who had very little experience. And I want to just add one other thing. The judge in the case, while he didn't go out on a limb or express any personal opinions on stuff, seemed extraordinarily skeptical of the government's effort and indicated that he didn't want to see the Justice Department drag this thing out in order to keep the cloud over Comey. He indicated, for instance, when the government wanted to introduce classified evidence, he said, why? This doesn't seem like it's that complicated a case. And he said, I'm going to deal with these issues as fast as you have ever seen. So one gets the sense that the judge, who is a Biden appointee, shares the general sense that he wants to move this along and some larger skepticism about the validity of the case.

[Nicole Wallace]

Glenn, do we know what I mean? Comey's lawyers indicated that he doesn't know anything more than we do about the indictment. What was Jim Comey indicted for doing?

[Glenn Thrush]

He was indicted for allegedly lying during testimony with Ted Cruz before the Senate Judiciary Committee. The question concerned whether or not he had a cutout, an official in Thean official in his orbit who was leaking stuff to reporters. Comey had claimed in that interaction that he had not ordered his subordinate to do that. And the second charge is really just iterative of the first charge. It's really just that one charge. They both carry five years potentially in prison. Even if convicted. He'd be very unlikely to see that. And it would be only one of those Charges.

[Nicole Wallace]

What is the next opportunity to adjudicate the plan that Pat Fitzgerald telegraphed today, which is to question the legality of Halligan's appointment?

[Glenn Thrush]

Well, the judge Nachman off in, I didn't want to say Rachmaninoff, who I really like as a musician.

[Nicole Wallace]

I think it's Nachman.

[Glenn Thrush]

I'm trying to train myself all afternoon. Yeah, that's right. Nachmanov, sorry, set out a general roadmap. He said he will in his courtand we're going to start by the end of the month to have discovery, which means a roadmap for what evidence the department is going to hand over to Fitzgerald and Comey, but also motions by the end of the month to put together these motions that he was talking about. So the judge said that he will hear the motions about the vindictive and selective prosecution himself. But then, interestingly, he said he would outsource to someone else in the 4th Circuit this question of whether or not Halligan was legally appointed. So what has now been created already are these two separate legal pathways to determine both of these claims that Fitzgerald and Comey have made.

[Nicole Wallace]

What are the prospects that if this proceeds John Durham and Bill Barr called as witnesses, who have both been on the record and written about Barr in his book and Durham and his report, the lack of evidence to bring a criminal case against Jim Comey.

[Glenn Thrush]

There's a lot of people that can be deposed in this case, including Eric siebert, the former U.S. attorney who was kicked out by Trump. Essentially, he was forced to resign. My reporting showed that when he was asked if he would bring some of these cases and said no, and then told he was going to see the door, he said that quitting was, quote, the easiest thing he had ever done. Subsequently to that, two of Siebert's top deputies, really, really respected people in that office were canned for no reason other than the typical citing of Article 2 in presidential authority. All of these people could theoretically be brought to show their process product, including declination memos that were apparently written by one or more people explaining why these things should not have been brought in the first place. And then the other, which is a broader question, is making this case about the president ordering up this prosecution. I was talking with some attorneys today and also some other reporters who've covered this beat for a really long time. And you know, they were bringing up, do you have to subpoena the president? Do you have to subpoena people close to the president? And Nicole, as you said at the top of the hour, you Don't. The stuff's out there. You basically have to, you basically have to cut and paste URLs. The President of the United States made his intentions known. And in addition to that, in addition to putting out that extraordinary Saturday nightit was either a direct message or a truth social or both, essentially calling on Pam Bondi to go after these people. He then told reporters a couple of days later that he wanted to see Siebert out of there. So the president's own public statements and posts are likely going to be playing a very significant role in this without having to subpoena senior administration officials.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, and to your point about Pat Fitzgerald, he interviewed a president and a vice president in the course of the Valerie Plame investigation for both of them. So in terms of the teams, the way they've lined up, you could imagine if that is part of the case, you've got someone there that has done that before. And that would just be a remarkable, I mean, there's no privilege to what you posted on social media. To your point, why wouldn't he depose Donald Trump?

[Glenn Thrush]

You know, I don't know how far up the road this needs to get. I mean, if the judge is convinced by, by the public evidence, you know, he may not need to go that far. And the point that you made about we'll see how the Halligan thing plays out. I've heard mixed things on that. But if that invalidates the grand jury indictment, you know, that's another whole ball game altogether. The one thing I would push back on is, you know, I don't think that that would necessarilyagain. I might be ignorant of the laws of criminal procedure here a little bit, but because I don't think it's double jeopardy to bring it to the grand jury. T.W. but I don't. I think the White House would push for whatever they could do to revive this if this was thrown out on some sort of a technicality. But I think your other guests might know a little bit more about that than I do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Let me show you some. I'll let you field Glenn's question and then I but I want to start by showing you what Jim Comey himself said about how he'd be treated if this moment came to pass. Do you worry that his people will not treat you fairly now that you're under scrutiny?

[Chris O'Leary]

Sure, but we live in a reality based world where people, if they're going.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

To make accusations, have to make them.

[Chris O'Leary]

In front of judges, have to put.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Evidence forward, have to swear that things are true.

[Chris O'Leary]

I believe in our judiciary.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

I believe in that one remaining leg of our three legged stool. That independent judiciary is alive and well and gives me great comfort.

[Nicole Wallace]

Is that what you think will backstop whatever comes at you from the Trump Justice Department?

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[Jeffrey Goldberg]

I wouldn't expect anything to come at.

[Chris O'Leary]

Me from the shell business, but anything.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

That did come at me, if I.

[Chris O'Leary]

Get more audits, more investigations, yes.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Our saving grace, we still have a leg on our stool. If we lose that, I don't know where we are. But we have judges appointed by all.

[Chris O'Leary]

Different presidents of different parties who believe in the rule of law. And if you come into their courtroom, heaven help you if you're not telling the truth.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

That still exists in this country and should be a source of great comfort.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's eerie listening to him. That was right after the Secret Service followed him on a drive from North Carolina back to his home, I think in Virginia after he posted a picture on Instagram with seashells spelling out I think it was 86. But I don't know that we knew about this case being revived at that point. But that was his belief about what would protect him.

[Chris O'Leary]

Well, I think that'll turn out to be true. First of all, as the previous guest was alluding to, if you look at who was in the courtroom on Director Comey's side, between Director Comey and Pat Fitzgerald and his co counsel, there's probably about 100 years of experience there compared to less than 10 with the Acting U.S. attorney and the two AUSAs brought in from North Carolina. I do think this will fail pretty quickly. I think Pat Fitzgerald will move towards a dismissal and he's got a good argument for that. And I will also say that this charge, this providing materially false information, I've used it, the FBI uses it. You can't lie to an FBI agent. It's title 18, section 1001. But rarely will a U.S. attorney's office support your efforts. You have to be very specific about it. And usually you won't bring somebody in for an interview until you've established all the facts, all the information that you know and how you know it. And you have to be able to demonstrate before you even interview this individual how they know it as well. And then here's the tricky thing. When they provide you information that's different, they have to, you have to somehow establish that they're knowingly doing that, that they're not misspeaking and the reason you don't charge it that often is it's often a he said, she said very hard to prove, which is for a variety of reasons. Why when you read the indictment, there is no substance to it. Number one, because the person who brought the indictment didn't have any experience doing it. But number two, there's no particulars to put in there because there's probably not any substance that supports this actual charge. So I do think it's. Even if you put aside the selective prosecution, which seems pretty glaringly apparent, the foundations of the charge are going to be very weak. And if it gets past the motions hearings. The other part that's worth noting is the prosecutors wanted time for classified information. I can't see where classified information would come into this based on what they're alleging that the false statements were about. If you're trying to make this more complex than it needs to be, this could go on for a long time. You have to get everybody clearances. Everything else, it's not really needed unless you're trying to make this more complex and drag it out.

[Nicole Wallace]

For Director Comey, Alex Wagner, one of the things that Barr writes about in his book is how this was Trump's white whale. All he wanted was for Chris Wray to investigate Hunter Biden and for Bill Barr to prosecute Jim Comey. And he writes about why that didn't happen, that there nobody, I think he's. Nobody at the department thought there was anything there. John Durham also writes and has this rare For John Durham paragraph about how wanting conduct to be charged is not the same as having evidence that a crime took place. So two titans of MAGA World 1.0 knock out every underpinning for whatever the specifics are, that there's still sort of a mystery around the indictment itself. Two figures who loomed pretty large and pretty sycophantic in Trump 1.0 are the biggest detractors of a prosecution of Jim Comey on the record.

[Alex Wagner]

And I think rightfully so. I mean, because they understand that it represents a real crossing of the Rubicon to indict the FBI director for completely personal and partisan reasons. I mean, on one hand, you know, I think there's a tendency, an instinct that's totally natural to dismiss this as just a fool's errand in service of a small handed autocrat's ego. Right? At the same time, this is a red line. I mean, Trump wants to do this because he's all ego and very little brain and he likes punishing his enemies and seeking comeuppance and retribution. I think genuinely and perhaps, you know, subconsciously, he also knows that he and his family have been using the White House like a brick and mortar qvc, and that they are incredibly corrupt and that once they're finally out of office, whenever that is, there could be all kinds of investigations into the behavior of him and his family and who knows what they'll find. And so kneecapping anybody who has a record of holding him accountable in our American judicial system, whether that's Jim Comey or Tish James or Adam Schiff, is something that Trump wants to nip in the bud. He wants to punish these people and set an example. And I do worry, you know, even if this case goes nowhere, what are the long and medium term effects over at the FBI and the Department of Justice? Kash Patel has purged some of the most capable people. There is a chilling effect we know from reporting we have both in, you know, here at NBC and then also elsewhere more broadly. And today, the Washington Post is reporting that a quarter of the FBI agents have been reassigned to immigration enforcement, taken off of counterterrorism, drug trafficking, real national security concerns, so they can be part of Trump's immigration dragnet. That's not good for the country. That's not good for the American people, and that's certainly not good for our American justice system, which is only as good as the people that serve in it. So I find the whole thing incredibly alarming.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, that last point, Alex, is the part of the story that he wants us to ignore in favor of the optics of Jim Comey being in court today. So on that note, we will now spend as much time talking about that as we have about what happened in court today. I have to sneak in a quick break first, but we'll have that conversation on the other side. Also ahead for us, Ken Burns and Jeffrey Goldberg, two vitally important voices to help put in context today's events and what's happening on the streets of American cities. They've both written some must read pieces of journalism in the Atlantic on the extraordinary pressure America itself is under right now. They'll tell us why there is still so much worth fighting for. Ken Burns and Jeffrey Goldberg will join us in a few minutes. And later in the broadcast, Trump escalating the already tense situation on the ground between the federal government and the city and residents of Chicago threatening both the mayor and the governor of Illinois with jail for getting in the way of troops on the streets. We'll have all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

We'Re back with Glenn, Alex and Chris. Alex, let me stay on your point and read you this reporting from NBC News. FBI fires special agents who worked on Jack Smith's probe into Trump. Quote, the FBI has fired at least three special agents who worked in connection with former special counsel Jack Smith's probe of now President Donald Trump. All three agents were previously named in documents released by Chuck Grassley about Arctic Frost, an FBI probe that was a precursor to the Smith investigation, which resulted in two federal criminal cases against Trump, one for his handling of classified docs, the other for involving his attempts to overturn the 2020 election loss which ended in the January Six attack on the US Capitol. I would argue that it didn't end at all. It's very much ongoing in the fact that the lie about his loss is the predicate for the purge that you were talking about. And the thing that they don't want discussed. Right. Is FBI minus its entire top tier of expertise and leadership. Isn't just the FBI promoting a young crop of leaders which across the board at institutions can have benefits. It's decapitating all of its expertise in service of loyalty. And I wonder what your theories are about why there isn't more outcry from Republicans about handicapping and limiting the capabilities of the FBI.

[Alex Wagner]

Well, I mean, I think Trump owns a Republican Party and anybody who, I mean, the Republicans, Republicans can't admit that Trump lost the 2020 election anymore. I mean, it's like a party line that it's, you know, it's unclear there was some fraud somewhere. That's the best case scenario for getting any Republicans to admit what actually happened is casting doubt on it, let alone just, you know, suggesting that Joe Biden actually won fair and square. I mean, the co opting of the truth by this administration is staggering and the willingness of the Republican Party to go along with it is appalling. You know, I think Republicans have made peace with the fact that the rule of law that was once the sort of bedrock foundation of the party and the notion of upholding that law and coloring within the lines and, you know, abiding the Constitution. They've made peace that power is paramount to everything and Donald Trump holds the power and so they kneel at his ring. I mean, I guess I'm noti've become so cynical about the GOP and its ability to act as any kind of check on Trump's worst impulses, that I'm not particularly surprised that they would rather forego America's national security and the pursuit of actual criminals who threaten our society. Because some of the same people might actually want to investigate Donald Trump and hold him accountable. I mean, they've chosen a man over country, and this is the clearest example of that yet. The fact that. That they are indicting the former FBI director who has served the country and upheld the rule of law and, by the way, also helped Donald Trump win the 2016 election. So, like, the notion that somehow he's a partisan actor who needs to be punished to feed the ego and the sort of fears of the commander in chief is just, you know, that's where we're at. I mean, I think there are real questions about what all this purging and decapitation is going to do to our ability to fight off real threats, both domestic and international, and what it does to holding those in power accountable and administrations well past that of Donald Trump. I mean, if you're a career prosecutor at the FBI who hasn't yet been fired, do you really want to stick your neck out after Trump's out of office? I mean, look what's. Look what's happened here. It's like America's allies saying, do you really want to enter in a pact with America right now? We are such a destabilized and morally fluid country with a code of ethics that seems to change with every election. It's really hard to do business with America. It's really hard to uphold principles just for the sake of upholding principle.

[Nicole Wallace]

I wish I could quibble with a single word of a single sentence from Alex. I can't, and I won't. What is the thinking inside the FBI? I mean, Trump is not done with FBI directors, even in that category. He has stated publicly that he would like to bring his next case against Chris Wray.

[Chris O'Leary]

Yeah, so I also think that case will go nowhere. You know, the president.

[Nicole Wallace]

Alex's point, even going this far is somewhere.

[Chris O'Leary]

It is. And I don't think there's any limits to what he will try. But alleging that The FBI had 274 agents stirring up the crowd on January 6, patently false. Just another conspiracy theory, no basis in fact. But to pick up where Alex left off, I think people who were equally culpable in all of this Republican leadership, it's really. They're negligent in their duties right now. And Their duties are supposed to be to their constituents and the American people and the protection of our Constitution, not only for ourselves, but our posterity. For those of us who have children, we have an obligation to make sure we're passing on something that is seemingly similar to what the founders intended and, you know, moving in the right direction and not in the beginning of a death spiral where we find ourselves, but the course of nature of the FBI, as Alex was highlighting, if we continue down this path, something will happen. Something catastrophic could happen. The threat from international terrorism, global jihadist groups is higher than it was before September 11th. Director Wray was talking about that before he was pushed out of office. You know, al Qaeda before September 11 was roughly 500 individuals. The global jihadist movement is in the tens of thousands in two dozen different countries around the world right now, and they're still intent on doing us harm. The lead agency for countering terrorism and preventing the next 911 is the FBI. But if you have 25% of agents, as the Washington Post just reported, working on immigration matters, and you're culling the ranks and, you know, having all this intimidation and coercive approach towards the employees, you could get hit. Additionally, on foreign counterintelligence. The FBI are the lead spy hunters. So when our adversaries, the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, pick a country when they sense weakness, blood in the water, that's when they're going to try to go after our people and gather information and intelligence. We've also fired countless federal government employees who may have had access to sensitive or classified information who are now thrown out on the street. They might have a grievance, they might have a financial need. All of these things are what intelligence officers look for. Somebody who's in a compromised situation. Cyber. The FBI's lead in cyber defense. But then public corruption, going after corrupt public officials, going after financial crimes to make sure our system is solid, and none of those things are happening the way they traditionally do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Glenn, you get the last word?

[Glenn Thrush]

Yeah, I think. Look, I subscribe to the diner theory of everything. The reason why diners in New York are great are because the customers are jerks. Right? So if you gotyou have Republican senators who are not using their leverage and holding Trump accountable on stuff, what's the use? They're throwing away their own power. So maybe if they were being more rigorous and obstreperous, it would rein in Trump without necessarily sacrificing anything that the Republican senators want to do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, I mean, to your point, what Trump's doing isn't popular. We talk about his power, one, like it's a steady thing. It's like a heartbeat right up and down. And two, his popularity is actually more like a, you know, a line that goes only in one direction. 62% of Americans believe that Trump implies properly encouraged federal investigations of his political opponents, including 40% of Republicans. 85% of Democrats believe that to be the case. So it's, it's terrible politics as well, which I guess inspires a totally different conversation that we'll have, we'll have tomorrow. Glenn Thrush, Alex Wagner and Chris o', Leary, thank you so much for starting us off on what's a stunning, stunning day when we come back. As we've been discussing, American democracy has been tested. We've been working overtime to keep Trump's quest for absolute power at bay. Some of us at least Ken Burns and Jeffrey Goldberg are among them. And they join us next to talk about how we get back to the ideals and the great American experiment and how that can help move us forward. That's next.

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[Nicole Wallace]

We have crossed a line.

[Ken Burns]

We are in a place we did.

[Nicole Wallace]

Not want to be, but we are there. The thing we were all warning about for the last few years is not coming. It is here. Life in the United States is profoundly changing, is profoundly different than it was.

[Ken Burns]

Even six months ago because we do.

[Nicole Wallace]

Now live in a country that has an authoritarian leader in charge.

[Ken Burns]

We have a consolidating dictatorship in our country.

[Nicole Wallace]

As our friend and colleague Rachel Maddow on the previously unimaginable things that any host or anchor would say the current crisis point for our democracy, for our country. As Donald Trump works overtime to do just what she describes to consolidate power, to undermine and taunt and threaten members of the judiciary, and to place American troops on the streets of American cities. Amid alarming warnings that Americans may be losing faith in the great American experiment at large, 63% of all Americans say in a recent poll that our political system is too divided to fix our problems. In this inflection point for America, the Atlantic takes us back to where it all began. The idea, the American experiment, where that began. The special issue ahead of our nation's 250th anniversary called the Unfinished Examining the History and Lessons of our Founding. In a letter, Editor in Chief Jeffrey Goldberg writes this we recognize that the American experiment is under extraordinary pressure at the moment and we think it important to do anything we can to illuminate the challenges we face. Jake Lundberg, the Atlantic's in house historian and archivist, writes about Lincoln and the way in which he called upon the spirit of 1776 to remind his fellow Americans of the work still before them. Quote as the nation fractured, Lincoln summoned the revolution as neither empty hypocrisy nor mindless triumph, lundberg writes, quote, but as an unfinished project whose noblest values could redeem the past and heal the present. The project is still unfinished and troubled, but it remains a project worth pursuing. That is the argument of this issue. Joining us now, Editor in Chief of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg, an Emmy Award winning filmmaker and documentarian and special friend of this program, Ken Burns. He drew on what he Learned making his latest series, the American Revolution, to contribute to this special issue as well. It's an honor to have both of you here. I Wish we had 11 hours with the two of you. Ken, I want to start with you because I remember on this show when you said ahead of the election, I'm not sure we make it to this, to this moment that we turn 250. Where's your head?

[Ken Burns]

It's a little bit better. I think that it's dicey. It's what Jeffrey wrote, what Rachel was talking about, in a really terrible, terrible position. But I do think we still have the courts, we still have this ability to talk about it. I think when you're in trouble as an individual, you go to your pastor, you go to a professional, and they want to know, where did you come from? Who are your parents? What was it like growing up? And that kind of re establishing of the narrative can be extraordinarily helpful in putting people back, Humpty Dumpty back together again. And I think that's what we've tried to do with our series. But I think Jeffrey's done magnificently with this issue of the Atlantic that really sort of draws its arms around all of it. Remember one of the signers of the Declaration, Benjamin Ross, said, the American War is over, but the American Revolution is still going on. If we see ourselves as a nation in the process of becoming, that is to say, a process story, then we're in pursuit of happiness after a more perfect union. And there's obviously at this moment, a lot of work to do. And the kind of reflective genius of all of the contributors to this extraordinary, unprecedented. I don't know, Jeffrey. It may be the biggest issue you've done is amazing and I think will help bring people together. We're asking ourselves, what can we do? The answer is not to sit in a fetal position and play Chicken Little, but to act in the places where we can act. And I think this is what the net effect of this narrative here in this extraordinary issue, and I hope our film is also doing Jeffrey.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, when I look at the polls, I mean, everything from releasing the Epstein files, 81% of Americans want that, to not prosecuting one's political enemies. 70% of the Americans want that, to not imposing tariffs. I think it's 67% of Americans do not want goods to be tariffed. The persuasion part is over. Americans don't want what Trump is doing. And I think the conclusion people draw is that democracy is already broken. If that's the case, what's your answer to that?

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Well, the, the system in theory works beautifully, right? The founders, many of the founders. And we deal with this in this issue. And Ken, of course, deals with it in his wonderful documentary, which will be on PBS next month. I'm here to flack for him, too.

[Nicole Wallace]

We all are here to flack for him and for pbs.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Everybody, you know, where, you know, everybody's got some work to do here. The look, look, one of the arguments about the founders is that they were pessimists, right? They devised, first of all, they opposed tyranny, obviously, which is why they wanted to be free. But they, they also understood that, that human beings are imperfect and seize power and hold on to power when they shouldn't and impose all kinds of punishments on their fellow CIT citizens when they gain a little bit of power. That's why we had a bunch of brilliant men at the initiation of this experiment who, who said, let's divide up government. Let's separate the powers. Let's, let's invest equal power in all, make all branches dependent on the approval of the other branch. And what we have now, look, you know, you, we can have an argument about the Supreme Court and how it's been stacked. Obviously, some people feel that, many people feel that. But let's focus on the legislative branch. If the legislative branch today were doing its job, its job as mandated as described by the founders of the United States, we wouldn't be in this position. If they were engaged in active oversight of the executive branch, we wouldn't have the firings of prosecutors who have investigated the president. You wouldn't have the FBI turned into a partisan football. You wouldn't have the politicization of the military.

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Right.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

If the leaders of Congress today followed the pathway set up by the very, very smart men who created this country, we wouldn't be where we are. So, I mean, a lot of 70% of people can be opposed to this. 80% of the people can be opposed to that. If the legislators of the 535 legislators and if the dominant party right now in the legislative branch doesn't listen, there's not a lot that people can do in a legislative democracy except wait for a next election or actually engage in civil dissent. And the dissent that is allowed and encouraged, allowed by the Constitution, encouraged by the people who wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to ask all of you to turn your lens on this issue to today's news cycle on the other side of a quick break. We'll all be right back. We're Back with Ken and Jeffrey. Ken, everyone, from the founders to John Kelly last November warned that troops should not be deployed to American cities. And I guess they weren't cities at the time of our founding, but to the streets of America to take up arms against the American people. And that is exactly what Donald Trump wishes. It is what has come to pass. What do you make of that other Rubicon Crossing development?

[Ken Burns]

It's a big deal. We did have cities, a handful of them. When General Gage, the commander of the British forces in North America, dispatched ships from Halifax, Nova Scotia, a big base, to to Boston, not to protect them, but to police them, it caused unbelievable furor and accelerated the beginning of the revolution. Having standing troops was beyond the pale. And if you begin to read the founding documents and the comments in the Declaration elsewhere, they're about that. I mean, we're at a place where, as you were Speaking about on January 6th, we've forgotten Alex was talking about. We just forgotten the actual facts of it. And there's a lot of facts that we have to go back to and hold. Like here's one inconvenient fact that I carry around with me called the Constitution. And as Jeffrey was saying, and I want to elaborate a little bit about this, the first article, I was at a luncheon today and I asked people, what's the first article? No one knew what it was about. And it is about the legislative branch. And so the founders, if they miraculously arrived here, would not be shocked that someone was trying to expand their authoritarian power. They would be shocked that Congress had abdicated theirs. And that's something that we can do. And obviously, as Jeffrey said, the first thing you do is vote and not be intimidated by those troops in the various streets and not be intimidated by all the ways that gerrymandering and making it harder and harder to vote and to go there and voice those opinions and change the legislature. So it reflects people who believe in the ideals that you said in those polls and begins to hold the executive branch accountable. That's the only way out of it. But it begins with facts. January 6th happened. This happened. This is our operating manual. This is the guide to the way back. And I think our work right now is in repair and restoration. That's what we need to be dedicated to.

[Nicole Wallace]

Jeffrey, reverence for the men and women. Oh, go ahead.

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

No, no, no. It's just so interesting because there's a lot of unfathomable things that are happening right now, but to me, maybe the most unfathomable, again, it's not an executive trying to seize more executive power. That's human nature. I mean, we've been blessed in this country by having presidents who understood that one important job of the president modeling after George Washington was to go home. But people still like power. The unfathomable thing is that the people who are elected to exercise legislative power don't seem to want to do it. I mean, they're mandated to check executive power. Why would you want a job job and then not do it? Especially when it's outlined for you in the Constitution, as Ken says, the operating manual. Here's the instructions. Make sure the executive doesn't become a tyrant. That's not.

[Ken Burns]

And the executive. And the executive can't fire the Library Librarian of Congress, which is what took place.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to ask you, Jeffrey Goldberg, because you've been part of the story of these nine months. I'm going to sneak in a break, and I have one last question about your reflections. At this moment, having been sort of in the center of one of the hinge points that really revealed what Donald Trump thinks of the military. And the through line is not as envisioned. It is not noble. Donald Trump doesn't love the military as much as the American people do. It's a through line, through losers and suckers to you will not have beards or be fat, and you will deploy the cities from which you hail. Is that something you ever thought you'd cover?

[Jeffrey Goldberg]

Look on the beards and the fat. I mean, maybe there's, you know, that it's important to have high physical fitness standards and it's important to have high grooming standards. You know, the argument there is that that could have been issued as a directive. You know, that could have been an email, as the joke goes. Those are, those are basic, basic functions of a proper military. What's surprised. Look, we have deployed other presidents, have deployed the military in situations of domestic violence, domestic disturbance. I don't think we've seen a president seeking to do that. When the local and state law enforcement officials could handle the situations that the president is trying, quote, unquote, trying to fix. Quote, unquote. Right. And so that's the alacrity with which they're trying to do this makes me suspect that they're trying to normalize the presence of troops on the street. And this leads to Our soldiers should be fit. Our soldiers. That's great. Super. Our soldiers should be directed at protecting the United States from its external enemies. That's what our soldiers are for. Remember, our soldiers are not trained as police officers. Quite the opposite. Our soldiers are trained and we have the best soldiers in the world. They are trained to bring maximum lethal force as quickly as possible, to close with the enemy and destroy the enemy. The police, the policing function is to try to bring calm and a crime free life and safety to fellow American citizens. That's a different mission. And so I don't know why you would want to put troops on the street unless it was the most dire of emergencies, except if you were looking to politicize the military, military and turn the military into an arm of your political movement rather than the defenders of our Constitution, our way of life, our people.

[Nicole Wallace]

Ken, I saw you waving around the Constitution. Do you have any doubt that it is the latter or do you see evidence that it's the former?

[Ken Burns]

Well, you know, I think that what happens is that authoritarians need to have an enemy, and apparently we have an enemy within. I, I've always thought that there was no them, particularly in the United States. There was only us. And we can see the promotion of the idea of only us, even in our motto, e pluribus unum. But here we have a situation where we're told that there's an enemy, people who disagree and do it peacefully. And this is a very important moment in the history of our opponents is how we get through that notion that we could have a standing army here on the streets of cities of the United States of America.

[Nicole Wallace]

You optimistic, Ken?

[Ken Burns]

Always optimistic, Nicole. I try to be. It's pretty rough these days. It's pretty hard. But I really think that if we stop with the hand wringing and the chicken little and begin to say, where is it that I can do something besides vote? Obviously, everybody should vote and have access to the vote and not be intimidated from voting because you come from a particular place or your skin is a particular color. And then we have to see what we can do. Somebody asked Frederick Douglass at the end of his life what the advice was, and he said, agitate, agitate, agitate. And that's still here in the First Amendment, you know, agitate, agitate, agitate.

[Glenn Thrush]

Peacefully.

[Nicole Wallace]

I love it. I love getting to talk to both of you and the two of you together. Thank you. Ken Burns and Jeffrey Goldberg, it's an honor. Check out the issue. We'll do a little bit of flacking for the Atlantic here, too. It's called the American Experiment. You can read it while you are watching Ken's doc on pbs. One more break for us. Up next, we'll head to. Welcome to Chicago. My friend and colleague Jacob Sobref is there live for us. Once again, the next hour of Dayline White House starts after a quick break.

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