← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“This is all just a show of force”
00:54:38
Nicolle Wallace on the continuing national guard presence in the nation’s capital, with rolling coverage of Illinois Governor JB Pritzker’s forceful speech against reported Trump administration plans to send troops to Chicago.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
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- [00:31]
MSNBC Announcer
11Th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhl and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.
- [01:05]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. Maybe you are familiar with it, the frog in boiling water metaphor that seeks to illustrate the difference between sudden and gradual peril in one particular context. It prompts an important question. When will we know? When will we really know that we are officially under authoritarian rule here? Remember that when you consider all of the breaking stories and headlines we woke up to this morning. As we speak, there are more than 2,000 armed soldiers, military patrolling the streets of our nation's capital, Washington, D.C. the federal task force managing the D.C. takeover says that the majority of those troops are carrying their service issued M17 pistols while a number are packing M4 rifles at the moment. Orders are to use those weapons, quote, as a last resort in response to an imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm to troops. Are not making arrests. Not yet at least. We should be clear. Members of the United States military are among the finest and bravest, most noble men and women our country has to offer. Period. Full stop. The fault in everything we discussed today does not lie with them, but with the person giving them their orders. The country's elected commander in chief, Donald Trump today, in the midst of signing executive orders ending cashless bail and criminalizing flag burning again, suggested he'll send troops to Chicago and maybe also Baltimore, potentially putting nearly 4 million Americans under this dark new rule of law, law and order regime in America. Then he said this.
- [02:47]
Governor J.B. Pritzker
As you all know, Chicago is a killing field right now. And they don't acknowledge it. And they say we don't need them.
- [02:54]
Bill Maher
Freedom.
- [02:54]
Nicole Wallace
Freedom.
- [02:55]
Governor J.B. Pritzker
He's a dictator. He's a dictator. A lot of people are saying maybe we like a dictator. I don't like a dictator. I'm not a dictator. I'm a Man with great common sense. And I'm a smart person. And when I see what's happening to our cities and then you send in troops instead of being praised, they're saying you're trying to take over the republic.
- [03:18]
Nicole Wallace
Quote, I'm a smart person, says not so many actually smart people. But okay, is the water hot enough for you yet? Just so you know, Illinois Governor JB Pritzker is expected to address the potential for troops arriving in his city, the city of Chicago, at any moment. We're monitoring that for you. But just as important as the what in these matters today is the why. Because while the Trump administration will publicly, in statements like that, say that these drastic, unprecedented measures are designed to fight crime, the reality is that as far as we can tell, so far, it is not about that. It's a show of force. New York Times tracked incoming defendants to a federal courthouse in Washington, D.C. people appearing before a magistrate judge who would otherwise be dealt with at a local court level if charges were ever filed against them at all. Quote, one man had been arrested over an open container of alcohol. Another had been charged with threatening the president after delivering a drunken outburst following his arrest on vandalism. And one defendant's gun case so alarmed prosecutors that they intend to drop the case to defense lawyers and even some prosecutors. Many of the cases that have landed in court have raised concerns that the takeover seems intended to artificially inflate its effect because government lawyers have been instructed to file the most serious federal charges, no matter how minor the incident. Which brings us back to where we started. When will we know? When will all of us know we've crossed into something new, into authoritarianism. Bill Maher, of all people this weekend had a theory about what comes next.
- [05:07]
Bill Maher
Let me just describe some of the steps and you tell me if I'm being paranoid. First, create a masked police force. Get people used to looking at that. Normalize snatching people off the street. Get them used to that. Normalize seeing the car, the National Guard and the military on the street. Then start talking about crime in the capital, which is basically, you know, has always been a fairly crime ridden city. This is our nation's capital where elections are decided. And then have, because the crime is so bad, have other states start sending their troops, not just the national guard there in D.C. but now at least six other states are sending their troops, which then Trump can then federalize. So you're having many states troops on the ground there. And now they're under federal control. So you have in the Capitol a sort of permanent police presence. So when an election dispute might come up, just hypothetically, I mean, I don't want to be a big pessimist and I'm going to pretend for the rest of the duration that the Democrats do have a chance of winning and they might win the next election election. I just don't think they're ever going to take power because this is what's going to happen because I think this coup is going to go off a lot smoother than the last one.
- [06:32]
Nicole Wallace
That that slow moving coup finally uttered out loud by Bill Maher is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former adjutant general for the Illinois National Guard and former Illinois Democratic congressman. Retired Major General William Enyart is here. Also joining us is staff writer for the Atlantic, author of Autocracy Inc. Anne Applebaum is here and former Democratic senator MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill is here. Ann Applebaum, I start with you. We tried to focus in on the idea that authoritarianism could happen here. And we debated internally behind the scenes whether it's authoritarianism in America, it could happen here, question mark. Or authoritarianism in America, it could happen here, no question mark. And I guess my question for you today is authoritarianism in America is here, right?
- [07:32]
Anne Applebaum
So it's been here for a while in the sense that authoritarian behaviors that we are used to thinking of belonging to different kinds of countries or different eras are already with us. So, you know, for example, election officials in Arizona being hounded out of their jobs by mobs, you know, that's something that you would only see in a state where organized mobs can hound officials out of their jobs. And that's something that has already happened in America or the, you know, Congress holding fake hearings over events that didn't happen in order to create public indignation over something non existent. So the creation of using politics to create fake spectacles, for example, these are authoritarian habits and practices. Kleptocracy, the use of public office to hide or steal money or to gain money. Also, Artie, with us, it's been with us at a low level for a time now. It's exploded. It's, it's a, it's at a level never imagined before. The president has a cryptocurrency company into which people openly pay money. They don't get anything for their payment other than the fact that the president knows they paid them and they can do so anonymously. All these kinds of behaviors have been building for some time, even before the election. And now they're simply coming to fruition. There isn't going to be a moment. It's not like there's going to be a red flashing light that goes off. I mean, maybe something will happen at the midterms or maybe not, but the increasing use of authoritarian tactics and the corresponding answer of authoritarian behaviors is here. And it's really important that Americans recognize it and name it and understand it. You know, we are a people who are used to the idea of our own exceptionalism. We are used to the idea that we live in a long tradition and we're right to have those feelings, but that can also make us blind to the possibilities. And it's very useful to actually to have somebody like Bill Maher or you speaking about this, at this change of system as something that could happen. It doesn't mean that it will happen or that we can't fight it, but it's useful to begin to stretch our imaginations.
- [10:00]
Nicole Wallace
Are there things that in other countries that have crossed all these lines? Like Friday, a raid of an outspoken political critic at the home of John Bolton, A court approved search of the home of John Bolton seemed to cross a threshold. For a lot of people watching closely, I'm sure that they will be savvy enough to manufacture a narrative about something he did wrong. But I wonder if there are lines that are getting crossed in active duty armed military on the streets of American cities, of political opponents having their homes searched, of people in the media bending a knee. Are there lines that we're crossing that in other countries have woken up the general population to the threat?
- [10:52]
Anne Applebaum
I mean, you know, in another country, yeah, I think having armed military on the streets of the capital would feel alarming. One of the things that's happening here is that the Trump administration keeps pretending that it's doing something else. So I actually got in an argument on a podcast a few days ago with somebody who wanted to have an argument with me about crime in Washington. And I was confused by the conversation because of course, the issue isn't crime in Washington. I mean, whether there is or there isn't or whether it's going up or not, it's absolutely irrelevant. The reason why troops are on the street in Washington has nothing to do with crime. You know, the military, the National Guard aren't trained to deal with crime. They're not the right tool to use if you have crime. If there were a crime emergency, they wouldn't be the right thing to send. But the administration by continually, as you said, supplying these fake narratives and by getting people to argue about crime in Washington, or whether John Bolton did something right or something wrong means that people are, as you say, missing the point. We're missing the milestones. You know, we aren't seeing what's happening. We aren't paying attention to what the consequences could be of having armed troops on our street. We get used to them, they're there. The next time power changes hands, maybe they prevent that from happening. All those things are now possible. And it's important again that we begin to name things by their real names.
- [12:19]
Nicole Wallace
So, General, I've had one of the similar arguments about crime. Crime, as an ex Republican, crime is a powerful political issue. And if Donald Trump cared about crime, his first act wouldn't have been to pardon dozens, maybe hundreds of people who carried out violent acts against cops, would have actually taken the side of the cops who protected Democrats and Republicans. So no one can argue with a straight face that Donald Trump is committed to fighting crime in the nation's capital. No one who lived through January 6th. But this, the role of the military, is something that General John Kelly seemed to go to excruciating and extraordinary lengths to try to warn the country about in his own voice. Let me play some of that one interview he does right before last November's election.
- [13:08]
Bill Maher
And I think this, this issue of, of using the military to go after American citizens is one of those things I think is a very, very bad thing. Even to say it for political purposes to get elected, I think it's a very, very bad thing, let alone actually doing it. When I was in the White House, for that matter, dhs, I was, you know, I originally conversation would be, you know, Mr. President, that's outside your authority or, you know, that's, you know, that's a routine use. You really don't want to do that inside the United States. But now that he's talking about it, as I'm going to do it, is again, it's disturbing.
- [13:57]
Nicole Wallace
General, I want to hear your thoughts on this. Governor Pritzker just started to talk, so let's listen for one second to what he's saying about this.
- [14:05]
Governor J.B. Pritzker
Over the weekend, we learned from the media that Donald Trump has been planning for quite a while now to deploy armed military personnel to the streets of Chicago. This is exactly the type of overreach that our country's founders warned against. And it's the reason that they established a federal system with a separation of powers built on checks and balances. What President Trump is doing is unprecedented and unwarranted. It is illegal. It is unconstitutional. It is un American no one from the White House or the executive branch has reached out to me or to the mayor. No one has reached out to our staffs. No effort has been made to coordinate or to ask for our assistance in identifying any actions that might be helpful to us. Local law enforcement has not been contacted. We have made no requests for federal intervention. None. We found out what Donald Trump was planning the same way that all of you did. We read a story in the Washington Post. If this was really about fighting crime and making the streets safe, what possible justification could the White House have for planning such an exceptional action without any conversations or consultations with the governor, the mayor, or the police? Let me answer that question. This is not about fighting crime. This is about Donald Trump searching for any justification to deploy the military in a blue city in a blue state to try and intimidate his political rivals. This is about the President of the United States and his complicit lackey, Stephen Miller, searching for ways to lay the groundwork to circumvent our democracy, militarize our cities, and end elections. There is no emergency in Chicago that calls for armed military intervention. There is no insurrection. There is no insurrection. Like every major American city, in both blue and red states, we deal with crime in Chicago. Indeed, the violent crime rate is worse in red states and red cities. Here in Chicago, our civilian police force and elected leaders work every day to combat crime and and to improve public safety. And it's working. Not one person here today will claim we have solved all crime in Chicago, nor can that be said of any major American metro area. But calling the military into a US City to invade our streets and neighborhoods and disrupt the lives of everyday people is an extraordinary action, and it should require extraordinary justification. Look around you right now. Does this look like an emergency? Look at this. Go talk to the people of Chicago who are enjoying a gorgeous afternoon in this city. Ask the families buying ice cream on the Riverwalk. Go see the students who are at the beach after school. Talk to the workers that I just met taking the water taxi to get here. Find a family who's enjoying today sitting on their front porch, and ask if they want their neighborhoods turned into a war zone by a wannabe dictator. Ask if they'd like to pass through a checkpoint with unidentified officers in masks while taking their kids to school. Crime is a reality we all face in this country. Public safety has been among our highest priorities. And since taking office, we have hired more police and given them more funding. We banned assault weapons, ghost guns, bump stocks, and high capacity magazines. We invested historic amounts into community violence intervention programs. We listened to our local communities, to the people who live and work in the places that are most affected by crime, and asked them to what they needed to help make their neighborhoods safer. Those strategies have been working. Crime is dropping in Chicago. Murders are down 32% compared to last year and nearly cut in half since 2021. Shootings are down 37% since last year and 57% from four years ago. Robberies are down 3. 34% year over year. Burglaries down 21%. Motor vehicle thefts down 26%. So in case there was any doubt as to the motivation behind Trump's military occupations, take note. 13 of the top 20 cities in homicide rate have Republican governors. None of these Cities is Chicago. Eight of the top 10 states with the highest homicide rates are led by Republicans. None of those states is Illinois. Memphis, Tennessee, Hattiesburg, Mississippi have higher crime rates than Chicago. And yet Donald Trump is sending troops here and not there. Ask yourself why. If Donald Trump was actually serious about fighting crime in cities like Chicago, he, along with his congressional Republicans, would not be cutting over $800 million in public safety and crime prevention grants nationally, including cutting $158 million in funding to Illinois for violence prevention programs that deploy trained outreach workers to de escalate conflict on our streets. Cutting $71 million in law enforcement grants to Illinois. Direct money for police departments through programs like Project Safe Neighborhoods, the state and local anti terrorism Training program, and the Rural Violent Crime reduction initiative. Cutting $137 million in child protection measures in Illinois that protect our kids against abuse and neglect. Trump is defunding the police. To the members of the press who are assembled here today and listening across the country, I am asking for your courage to tell it like it is. This is not a time to pretend here that there are two sides to this story. This is not a time to fall back into the reflexive crouch that I so often see where the authority authoritarian creep by this administration is ignored in favor of some horse race piece on who will be helped politically by the President's actions. Donald Trump wants to use the military to occupy a US City, punish his dissidents and score political points. If this were happening in any other country, we would have no trouble calling it what it is, a dangerous power grab. Look at the people assembled before you today behind me. This is a full cross section of Chicago's leaders from the business world, the faith community, law enforcement, education, community organizations, and more. We sometimes disagree on how to effectively solve the many challenges that our state and our city face on a daily basis. But today we are standing here, United States, in public, in front of the cameras, unafraid to tell the president that his proposed actions will make our jobs harder and the lives of our residents worse. Earlier today in the Oval Office, Donald Trump looked at the assembled cameras and asked for me personally to say, Mr. President, can you do us the honor of protecting our city? Instead, I say, Mr. President, do not come to Chicago. You are neither wanted here nor needed here. Your remarks about this effort over the last several weeks have betrayed a continuing slip in your mental faculties and are not fit for the auspicious office that you occupy. Most alarming, you seem to lack any appropriate concern as our commander in chief, for the members of the military that you would so callously deploy as pawns in your ever more alarming grabs for power as a governor. I've had to make the decision in the past to call up members of the National Guard into active service. And I think it's worth taking a moment to reflect on how seriously I take that responsibility and on the many things that I consider before asking these brave men and women to leave their homes and their communities to serve in any capacity for us. As I've said many times in the past, members of the National Guard are not trained to serve as law enforcement. They are trained for the battlefield, and they're good at it. They are not trained to arrest people and read them their Miranda rights. They did not sign up for the National Guard to fight crime. And when we call them into service, we are reaching into local communities and taking people who have jobs and families away from their neighborhoods and the people who rely upon them. It is insulting to their integrity and to the extraordinary sacrifices that they make to serve in the Guard, to use them as a political prop where they could be put in situations where they will be at odds with their local communities, the ones that they seek to serve. I know Donald Trump doesn't care about the well being of the members of our military, but I do. And so do all the people standing here. So let me speak to all Illinoisans and to all Chicagoans right now. Hopefully, the president will reconsider this dangerous and misguided encroachment upon our state and our city's sovereignty. Hopefully, rational voices, if there are any left inside the White House or the Pentagon, will prevail in the coming days. If not, we are going to face an unprecedented and difficult time ahead. But I know you, Chicago, and I know you are up to it when you Protest. Do it peacefully. Be sure to continue Chicago's long tradition of non violent resistance. Remember that the members of the military and the National Guard who will be asked to walk these streets are, for the most part, here unwillingly. And remember that they can be court martialed and their lives ruined if they resist deployment. Look to the members of the faith community standing behind me today for guidance on how to mobilize. To my fellow governors across the nation who would consider pulling your National Guards from their duties at home to come into my state against the wishes of its elected representatives and its people, you would be failing your constituents and your country. Cooperation and coordination between our states is vital to the fabric of our nation and it benefits us all. Any action undercutting that and violating the sacred sovereignty of our state to cater to the ego of a dictator will be responded to. The state of Illinois is ready to stand against this military deployment with every peaceful tool we have. We will see the Trump administration in court. We will use every lever at our disposal to protect the people of Illinois and their rights. Finally, to the Trump administration officials who are complicit in this scheme, to the public servants who have forsaken their oath to the Constitution to serve the petty whims of an arrogant little man, to any federal official who would come to Chicago and try to incite my people into violence as a pretext for something darker and more dangerous. We are watching and we are taking names. This country has survived darker periods than the one that we're going through right now. And eventually the pendulum will swing back, maybe even next year. Donald Trump has already shown himself to have little regard for the many acolytes that he has encouraged to commit crimes on his behalf. You can delay justice for a time, but history shows you cannot prevent it from finding you eventually. If you hurt my people, nothing will stop me, not time or political circumstance, from making sure that you face justice under our constitutional rule of law. As Dr. King once said, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice. Humbly, I would add, it doesn't bend on its own. History tells us we often have to apply needed to make sure that the arc gets where it needs to go. This is one of those times. I look forward to taking your questions in a few minutes, but first, I'd like to hand over our podium to Mayor Brandon Johnson. Thank you, Governor. Good afternoon, everyone.
- [28:36]
Nicole Wallace
We're going to continue to monitor this. I think we just saw the first speech, the first public official recognizing what Ann Applebaum just articulated at the top of the hour that autocratic practices and behaviors are here. They're not just here. They're emanating from the country's commander in chief, Donald J. Trump, who hours ago sat behind a desk and said, quote, I am smart as an explanation or as the governor of Illinois might say, a pretext for sending armed troops to the streets of American cities. A barn burner of a speech from Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker, who told the people of Illinois in no uncertain terms that what Donald J. Trump plans to do in his city is, quote, unprecedented, illegal, unconstitutional and un American. Urging him publicly with the city's business faith and elected officials, quote, do not come to Chicago. He pointed out the strategy, which is to, quote, target blue states and elections. He described crime in his city as something that he and other elected officials are aware of and working on, but made the salient, indisputable fact that, quote, 13 of the top 20 cities in terms of homicide rates are led by Republicans, end quote. Eight states in America with the top homicide rates, also Republican led. General, your reaction?
- [30:14]
Major General William Enyart
Well, I think Governor Pritzker made a spot on speech and I think Ann Appelbaum is certainly spot on with what she's saying. Trump desperately needs to cling on to power. And I think that the reason that he is taking these actions is distraction, distraction, distraction. The governor talked about some statistics, crime statistics. Let me read you a couple of statistics. Price of hamburger a year ago today, $5.35 a pound. Hamburger today, $6.98 a pound. That's a 33% increase. Coffee, 632 a year ago today it's 841 a pound. Another 30 plus percent. Food prices have gone up every single month but one since Trump took office. Now, Trump said he was going to drive prices down, food prices down the.
- [31:16]
Governor J.B. Pritzker
Day he took office.
- [31:18]
Major General William Enyart
Yet another lie. He can't afford to face truth and that's why he has to have distraction. The use of these national guard in Washington, D.C. and proposed in Chicago is simply that he is doing it in order to provide a distraction to his base and to frankly to most of the news media so they'll chase that catnip. Trump's tariffs have been a failure. His negotiations with Putin a failure. Corn prices have cratered. Corn prices are 40% down from what they were under the Biden administration. Soybean prices for farmers, the money that farmers make, those are down more than 50% since Biden. China used to buy 60% of their soybeans from the United States farmers. Today, 20%. Brazil took those. Why? Trump's tariffs. His policies are incredibly unpopular, and so he needs to put on a show. He is a mastermind at showmanship, and that's what he is doing.
- [32:33]
Nicole Wallace
General, let me get you to address specifically and bluntly something that the governor said about the men and women of the National Guard. He said, quote, when you protest, do it peacefully. And remember, members of the military and National Guard are mostly here unwillingly, following orders. Is that your assessment of how most military men and women feel about being deployed to the streets of American cities?
- [33:08]
Major General William Enyart
I, in my 30 years of experience in the National Guard and then my active duty time on top of that. But during that period of military service, I found that service members really loved being called up for active duty, for real emergencies, for tornadoes, for hurricanes, for blizzards, for ice storms. That was what we were there for. That was our mission, and that was appreciated by the community. It served the community. This is a political stunt. Soldiers don't like to be misused for political stunts. That is not what they're about. They are not a prop for a television camera for a president who is seeking to distract the public's attention from more serious issues. Now, is crime as serious issue in Chicago? Of course it is. It's a serious issue many places. But the National Guard, as has been pointed out, is not a law enforcement tool. We are trained, and a lot of generals in the PR department of the DoD hate it when I say this, but let's face facts. Soldiers are trained to break things and kill people, not to police the streets of Chicago or Washington, D.C. or places that really need it, like Little Rock. So the misuse of the National Guard or the active duty military for that matter, is a real problem. And additionally, I don't see where the legal authority for Donald Trump to do this comes from. You know, he used a very narrow section to call up the California National Guard, and of course, that's been litigated, and we're awaiting the decision on that. Title 32 clearly doesn't apply because the governor retains control of National Guard forces, and we know what Governor Pritzker is going to do with that. And the Insurrection Act. Where's the rebellion? There is no rebellion here. There is no invasion by a foreign country. So what is the pretext that Trump is using here? I'd certainly like to see. You know, they fired all the top Jags, and I'd like to see what legal justification the Jags can come up with for mobilizing either the Guard or bringing in active duty forces.
- [35:39]
Nicole Wallace
Claire McCaskill, we are monitoring this. We're going to dip back into this. I want to come to you, though, on this really perhaps most direct attack and articulation of exactly what we started the hour talking about, authoritarianism in America and a real rebuke of efforts on the part of folks like myself, people in the media, to, quote, cover the politics, who's up and who's down, cover the horse race and look for both sides. This is a leader who has read the room and understands where the heat is in this country. Donald Trump is a president with an historically low approval rating. Not everyone who would have supported him last November supports his economic policies, his tariff policies, his handling of inflation or his handling of immigration interactions with Russia or the Epstein manner. So here we are. Your thoughts?
- [36:43]
Yeah, listen, I think this president is not only violating the Constitution, he is also abusing the military and he's kneecapping states rights. That's quite a trifecta for a Republican president. I don't think that's what most Republican presidents would want on their resume. I agree with the general. I don't see the legal basis that he can go in. People need to understand DC Is much different than the states. The authority of the National Guard there, where it comes from and where it lies versus the states is much different. DC Is controlled by the federal government. That's why they don't get to vote for president. That's why they don't have the power that most American citizens have, because they are, in fact, a district of the federal government. So I do think he's going to run into obviously popular disagreement in terms of how people feel about this. But he's also going to run into real legal problems. And I cannot underscore more what Ann said about this not being about crime. This has nothing to do with crime. They are loading up the courts in Washington, D.C. with low level offenses and immigration offenses. They're doing nothing for violent crime in D.C. and when you load up the courts with low level crimes, there's no place for people to go. He wants to do away with cash bail. He wants to to put that Amazon delivery guy who got arrested on a federal crime for an open container of liquor. He wants to make sure he stays in a federal prison. I mean, it's crazy. This is not what America is. I do think it is what the general said. He is losing the economic war in terms of affordability. He is losing the war on why he will not release the Epstein Epstein. He is losing in his inability to get peace around the globe. I mean, Netanyahu just killed a bunch more citizens in a Gaza hospital today. You know, so this is his way of trying to say, look over here. Because if you look over here, I've made a mess. And the only thing I would say that I disagree with the general about is whoever said, ignores Ann or the general said that Stephen Miller is a lackey. He's not a lackey. I believe Stephen Miller is the mastermind behind all the immigration cruelty. And behind this plan. I think Stephen Miller has been let loose. I think Stephen Miller is in control. And that should scare you down to the marrow of your bones.
- [39:18]
I think it was Governor Pritzker who invoked Stephen Miller. And I want to come back to you on this topic of crime. The New York Times reported this on the topic of Donald Trump and his record on crime. Quote, trump ordered the government to stop enforcing the laws that make it illegal for US Companies to bribe foreign governments. As part of his effort to root out dei, Donald Trump told government offices to stop enforcing many civil rights provisions. Trump has ordered federal agencies to stop fighting climate change, which means ignoring the statutes that mandate such efforts. A direct order is not the only way to curb enforcement. Trump has also slashed budgets and headcounts, which has a similar effect. He called a quarter of the IRS workforce wants to reduce its funding by 40%. He moved staff members responsible for enforcing crypto regulations at the SEC into other roles. Since Trump installed the White House budget director as acting head of the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau, the agency has halted nearly all its enforcement actions and tried to fire 90 of its workers. All those people enforce laws, and when those laws were broken, those were crimes. Donald Trump has perhaps the worst record on crimes ever. I mean, I don't know that we've had an American president that's dismantled law enforcement in such an elaborate way like Donald Trump has.
- [40:41]
Anne Applebaum
No, and you haven't mentioned yet, the evisceration of the FBI attempts to take apart US Intelligence services so that we know less about the world and we're less aware of it. You could also add to that a whole long list of attempts to lift penalties for bribery of foreign officials. All kinds of rules created to cut back on kleptocracy and prevent the corruption of the federal government, the removal of ethics advisors and so on. I mean, you're right, the list is very, very long. It's why crime is the. It's the language that he's using as an excuse. But as you correctly say, it's hiding something deeper. I was Very struck, actually, by something the governor said when he talked about. He quoted the famous Martin Luther King statement about history bends justice, bends the. Sorry, history bends the arc of justice anyway, that justice is somehow natural and will come upon us, and whatever we do, things will come out right in the end. And he made a very, very important comment where he says, you know, it doesn't bend on its own. So if we want. If we want this to change, if we want this, you know, if we want this to, this situation to be altered, people will need to do something. People like the governor, people like the mayor of Chicago, people like other mayors, other governors will have to begin to speak up. And, of course, it's my hope that Republican governors and Republican mayors who understand how, what kind of precedent is being set will begin to speak up as well. Nothing is inevitable about what Donald Trump is doing, but nor is it inevitable that what he's doing will fail. The question of what happens next depends on what our leaders do, what ordinary citizens do, how people react to these momentous changes.
- [42:47]
Nicole Wallace
I wrote down a lot of that section, too, because there's a lot of being sort of captive to the threats and intimidation, whether it's to law firms, universities, businesses, media organization organizations that we talk about. But we don't go where he went, and he went to the future. He said, we have survived darker periods. We will survive this. And if you hurt my people, nothing will stop me from protecting them. He made a point, too, that we will get your names, basically, if you're an enabler. This period will end, the fever will break, and we will hold you accountable on the other side. And I think, Ann, it's an important piece that's been missing from the vast majority of elected Democrats to say on the other side, we will make damn sure that history bends back toward justice, back toward democracy, back toward the vision that our founders had, back toward three branches of government, back toward something normal. And it felt very important to me. I sort of scribbled all of that down because he's the first person I've heard give voice to that.
- [43:54]
Anne Applebaum
Yeah, I mean, of course, the disturbing thing is that that's not what happened before. And one of the reasons we are where we are is that Donald Trump didn't really pay a price for assaulting the elections, assaulting the Constitution on January 6, and the failure of our system to hold him to account gave a lot of people the feeling that, ah, okay, we can get away with anything. Now, I don't want to go backwards in history. We are where we are now. But I hope that Americans remember that lesson.
- [44:25]
Nicole Wallace
We're going to do two things. One, we're going to ask you on live TV to stay with us, which wasn't our original action to any of you, but I hope you're able to do that. We're also going to play for you some of what has happened since we've been sort of dealing with the breaking news there at the top. Show you more of what's been said. We're going to sneak in a quick break before we do all that. We will all be right back. I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.
- [45:09]
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- [45:56]
Nicole Wallace
The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [46:02]
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- [46:19]
Governor J.B. Pritzker
So in case there was any doubt as to the motivation behind Trump's military occupations, take note. 13 of the top 20 cities in homicide rate have Republican governors. None of these Cities is Chicago. Eight of the top 10 states with the highest homicide rates are led by Republicans. None of those states is Illinois. Memphis, Tennessee, Hattiesburg, Mississippi have higher crime rates than Chicago, and yet Donald Trump is sending troops here and not there. Ask yourself why.
- [47:00]
Nicole Wallace
We are back with General Enyart and Applebaum and Claire McCaskill. Claire McCaskill the crime issue is salient when Republicans lie about crime, use it against Democrats. Democrats don't seem as willing to take the facts as Governor Pritzker just did and wield them with the same political acumen that Republicans do. Why not?
- [47:22]
I think, I think we have really fallen down as Democrats in terms of realizing that we can believe in the rule of law and prosecuting people who violate our laws and prosecute criminals and that we should talk about it as a priority. But that doesn't mean we can't go after Trump for abusing the Constitution like this and abusing states rights. I mean the other thing that he's doing here, Nicole, and that's why, you know, it's self serving for me to say this on our network, but it's really important that our viewers understand that more viewers who are watching news outlets that are reporting on these facts is important to our country because Donald Trump is doing something else very insidious. He is shaping the news people that are covering him. He is controlling who gets access to the Oval Office. He's controlling the type of questions that are being asked by giving certain outlets access and denying other outlets access to say nothing of what he's doing to try to intimidate news organizations from reporting the facts and getting away from both sides. You know, let's, let's put it in context. Both sides. So it is really important that everyone reach out to their family and friends and make sure, sure they understand that using our military against American citizens as a photo op is dangerous for our country and he should be held accountable for doing it. And by the way, guess who's the frog that's in the boiling water right now and not saying anything. That's Republican office holders in Congress and Republican governors. Mike DeWine sent National Guard to D.C. what was he thinking? Mike DeWine has shown some spine from time to time. I don't know where it went when he got the call to send his National Guard to do photo ops in D.C. with guns on their hips. It's bizarre.
- [49:18]
I mean I think the point about crime though general, is that what Pritzker is showing, what Anne Applebaum is saying, what is important politically for Democrats right now is to say we care about crime. This isn't about crime because as the governor just said, 13 of the top 20 cities reside in Republican led states. Eight of the states with the top homicide rates are led by Republicans. And it's not to urge military to go to those states or those cities. It's to point out the rank hypocrisy. It's a proof point for what everyone has been saying to Ann's point for many years now that this is, this isn't about what Trump says it's about in the moment. This isn't about anything other than carrying out, frankly, what was put in black and white in Project 2025 ahead of the election.
- [50:17]
Major General William Enyart
Well, that's exactly right. And, you know, it's not just Stephen Miller who's guiding this particular journey, but it is indeed the people who wrote Project 2025. And I didn't read all of Project 2025, but I can tell you I read the part about veterans and veterans benefits and what they want to do to slash veterans benefits and veterans care, and it's absolutely abhorrent. These people have no concern for soldiers. They have no concern for veterans. All they care about is cutting taxes for wealthy people and cutting the federal budget and eliminating positions that serve this nation, serve our people. The this is not about crime. If it were about crime, then Trump would be asking Congress to provide more funds to support law enforcement, to provide additional training, to provide additional resources for law enforcement and for cities, whether they be Republican cities or Democratic cities, whether they're Republican states or Democratic states, that's. That's the way to do this. The military is a blunt tool. You know, it's a sledgehammer. It is not. It is not a fine tool that's trained to deal with law enforcement issues. We don't deal with gangs, and we don't deal with domestic disturbances, and we don't deal that much with drugs, really. And the leading cause of murder, the leading cause of crime in this country is drugs, gangs, and domestic violence. So those are not problems that the military is really trained or set up to answer.
- [52:05]
Nicole Wallace
And Appelbaum, let me come back to you on this moment, and let me start with the two men who seem to be the most relevant at this hour. The first I showed you at the beginning, Bill Maher. Bill Maher isn't just a person who sort of straddles news and comedy satire. He dined with Donald Trump and he came out of it and spoke to his charm. And a lot of autocrats, I've learned from folks like yourself, a lot of autocrats face to face can put on a charm offensive. Just talk about the impact of someone who was inside the room, inside the coalition, and very much the same same way that Joe Rogan is inside the MAGA coalition. What is the impact of someone like that breaking with these authoritarian practices?
- [52:53]
Anne Applebaum
It's really important that people who have been affiliated with Trump or who have expressed admiration for Trump or who have been part of his coalition come to recognize what he is and say so clearly. And actually, we had quite a bit of that in the. After following the last Trump administration. I mean, actually, during this whole episode, I've been thinking about John Kelly, who famously is the source of the quote from Donald Trump where he described American soldiers as. Who died in combat, as suckers and losers. So he was someone who, you've quoted him, who has been saying, you know, look, I told you this would happen. You know, he's somebody who has a. Has a. Has a very sick idea of what our military is supposed to do. And I think it was very important that John Kelly said that. And we've had a number of other people, actually, John Bolton is one of them. You know, there have been a handful of others, some of whom who broke with the president during the first administration. Every time someone does this and every time they are able to bring with them, you know, a few friends and a couple of voters. And by the way, that's true of people who don't know Donald Trump, but who voted for him or believed him. Every time one of them is able to break away and. And testify, it's important. You know, look, nowadays people mostly don't get their news and their information from television or programs like this one, or from newspapers. They get their information from their friends, from things they see on social media, from people, people they trust. And if you're someone who did vote for Trump or did believe what he was saying, and you have people who trust you around you, then it's very important that you tell them now what you're seeing that's going wrong. And actually, that's the way we would change the culture of our country is if people would say honestly what it is that they see and communicate that to their friends and colleagues.
- [54:50]
Nicole Wallace
Let me show you on that point that Anna's making. What Governor Pritzker said about Donald Trump's, I think the quote was, Faculties.
- [55:01]
Governor J.B. Pritzker
Mr. President, do not come to Chicago. You are neither wanted here nor needed here. Your remarks about this effort over the last several weeks have betrayed a continuing slip in your mental faculties and are not fit for the auspicious office that you occupy.
- [55:29]
Nicole Wallace
Anne Applebaum. It seems like a very direct attack to the thing Trump is most vain about. I played the, quote, top of the hour. Trump, quote, I am smart. This is. Is a Democratic governor of a big, important blue state with a big, important blue city basically calling into question his, quote, faculties.
- [55:52]
Anne Applebaum
Look, we're all watching Donald Trump in real time, and he hasn't ever made a lot of sense. He was incoherent during the election campaign. He continues to be incoherent now. And maybe he's incoherent in new ways. I mean, there are clearly some, some, he has clearly health problems. And we've all seen his, the way he walks and his ankles and so on. I mean, I won't go into those details, but we're what, he's a very elderly man. He's not in control of the situation around him. That's pretty clear. And yeah, I think it's probably useful for the governor of Illinois and for others who are in a position to say so to make that clear.
- [56:33]
Nicole Wallace
I think that you have to have faith that in the end it'll all be okay. That no matter who wins a presidential election, we will live in a democracy. The First Amendment will govern what journalists can say and do. The Constitution will protect the rights of everybody, if you can agree that most people want those things. Our show is about trying to bend the arc toward that end result.
- [56:54]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [57:02]
Nicole Wallace
Anne Applebaum, Major General William Enyart, Claire McCaskill, thank you. I feel like we watched something potentially really important together. Thank you so much for staying for the whole hour with me after the break. From deploying troops to Washington, D.C. and now threatening the city of Chicago, to opening investigations and repeating threats against his political critics, Democratic and Republican alike, Donald Trump is clearly agitated and ramping up his takeover of the criminal justice system. The next hour of Deadline White House starts after a quick break.