“Time to get on offense”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode Summary: “Time to Get on Offense” Release Date: June 26, 2025 | Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

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Nicolle Wallace delves into a series of pressing national issues in the episode titled “Time to Get on Offense.” From the controversial U.S. military strikes on Iran’s nuclear facilities to Republican efforts to dismantle Medicaid, and the ongoing turmoil within immigration enforcement, Wallace provides a comprehensive analysis enriched by expert insights and firsthand accounts.

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1. U.S. Strikes on Iran’s Nuclear Program

The episode opens with a critical examination of the recent U.S. airstrikes on Iran's nuclear sites. President Donald Trump's unwavering claim that the strikes “obliterated” Iran’s nuclear capabilities is met with skepticism from military officials and lawmakers.

• General Dan Kaine, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, expressed caution regarding the extent of the damage:

  “It would be way too early for me to comment on what may or may not still [remain].”
  [02:53]

• Congressman Jim Himes, House Intelligence Committee Ranking Member, highlighted the uncertainty surrounding Iran's nuclear stockpile:

  “Obliterating the sites means nothing if the Iranians moved enough 60% uranium centrifuges and other weaponization tools to build a bomb at some possibly unknown location.”
  [03:10]

• Senator Chris Murphy echoed these concerns, noting:

  “To me, it still appears that we have only set back the Iranian nuclear program by a handful of months. … the allegations that we have obliterated their program just don't seem to stand up to reason.”
  [07:52]

Courtney Kuby from NBC adds depth to the discussion by differentiating between the success of the strikes in hitting intended targets and the actual impact on the nuclear program’s overall capabilities:

“It is very possible that two things can be factual here. The mission was carried out exactly the way it was intended. … But it's still not clear whether it actually destroyed … the knowledge within the program.”
[15:17]

Julian Barnes, New York Times National Security Reporter, emphasizes the need for accountability and transparency:

“Why was this needed? What did this do? Can we trust that this peace is lasting? … Why was this needed, and how do we get the real story here?”
[63:50]

2. Republican Efforts to Gut Medicaid

Wallace shifts focus to the Republican push to overhaul Medicaid through what is dubbed the “big beautiful bill.” The proposed legislation faces significant backlash due to its potential to strip millions of Americans of their health insurance.

• Senator Mitch Lander criticizes the bill's impact:

  “The bill will reduce the number of Americans with health insurance by 11 million and [unrelated] 16 million. ... If you have a mama having a heart attack … she's going to stroke out.”
  [35:03]

• Pete Hegseth, former senior adviser, vehemently opposes the legislation, stating:

  “This bill essentially does one very simple, cataclysmically bad thing, which is basically give a tax cut to the wealthiest people in America in exchange for hurting people by taking away their health care and taking away food.”
  [38:57]

Senator Alyssa Slotkin presents a counter-strategy focusing on an offensive economic plan:

“We need to offer a different vision and demonstrate an affirmative positive plan for the country. ... How do we bring back jobs to the United States?”
[52:04]

3. Immigration Raids and Detention Center Conditions

A harrowing account of immigration enforcement practices is discussed through the story of Donna Kashanian, a long-time New Orleans resident unjustly detained by ICE agents. The segment underscores the human cost of aggressive immigration policies.

• Pete Hegseth recounts Donna's ordeal:

  “She was picking figs with neighborhood children … she was gardening. … targeted her intentionally … sent her to a jail … tearing her community apart.”
  [40:38]

• Andrea Flores, writer and editor for Protect Democracy, highlights systemic issues:

  “We have a lot more … What we are at a really scary moment … they're designing a system to detain the people that Americans are very clear they do not support the detention of.”
  [85:45]

Jacob Soborough, NBC News correspondent, adds context by comparing current practices to past detention policies:

“Detention centers are consistently overcrowded … humanitarian issues … horrific audio … consistent with what we've heard about the inside of ICE detention centers for years.”
[77:46]

4. 10-Year Anniversary of Same-Sex Marriage Legalization

Marking a decade since the Supreme Court’s landmark decision on same-sex marriage, former President Barack Obama reflects on the progress achieved through grassroots activism and personal courage.

• Barack Obama states:

  “This was because of a whole series of individual acts of courage by individual citizens … willing to suffer, being ostracized … culminated in this important ruling.”
  [46:16]

He draws parallels to current Supreme Court deliberations on birthright citizenship, emphasizing the importance of continuous advocacy and judicial prudence.

5. Democratic Economic War Plan vs. Republican Agenda

Senator Alyssa Slotkin introduces a comprehensive economic war plan aimed at revitalizing the middle class, contrasting it with the Republican’s policies that, according to critics, exacerbate economic hardships.

• Senator Slotkin outlines key focuses:

  “Job creation, housing, health care … How do we bring back jobs to the United States? … How do we make critical supply chains here in America?”
  [56:38]

She underscores the importance of proactive measures over defensive politics to address the economic concerns facing American families.

6. Reflections on Leadership and Institutional Integrity

The conversation extends to the broader implications of leadership styles on national security and institutional trust. Julian Barnes and Amanda Carpenter discuss the dangers of personalized power and the erosion of professional standards within the military and intelligence communities under the current administration.

• Amanda Carpenter criticizes the administration’s approach:

  “They are building up an infrastructure to disappear people at a mass scale without due process … designing how do they really finally carry out mass deportations.”
  [85:45]

• Julian Barnes emphasizes the necessity of accountability:

  “What obligation do we think our leaders should have when we are talking about using these tremendous and terrifying amounts of force … Trust but verify is what Ronald Reagan said.”
  [66:30]

7. Human Stories and Personal Testimonies

Interwoven with expert analysis are personal stories that humanize the broader policy discussions. The heartbreaking account of Narciso Barranco, father of three Marines, detained in the harsh conditions of Adelanto detention center, serves as a poignant illustration of the human impact of current immigration policies.

• Alex Soborough reports:

  “He was at work outside of California IHOP … detained brutally … pushed into a car … accused of trying to assault agents, though accounts suggest he was merely protecting himself.”
  [79:45]

• Andrea Flores adds:

  “Population is being ripped apart … communities being torn apart because of arbitrary deportation targets … policies designed to maximize harm.”
  [87:51]

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Conclusion

In “Time to Get on Offense,” Nicolle Wallace navigates through complex and contentious issues shaping U.S. politics and society. By presenting multifaceted perspectives and incorporating personal narratives, the episode underscores the urgency for informed discourse and proactive policy-making in addressing national security, healthcare, and immigration challenges.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to specific segments within the provided transcript.

Transcript

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[News Anchor]

Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in the East. A masterclass from Team Trump today in deflection and confusion and gaslighting on an issue that seems to be haunting the Trump administration in the wake of Saturday's airstrikes in Iran. The question is, has Iran's nuclear program been, as Donald Trump asserted Saturday night and has repeated every day since, obliterated? As they keep using that word over and over again. At a press conference this morning, Fox News Weekend host turned America's Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, tore into the news media for daring to report on a preliminary assessment from the Defense Intelligence Agency that claims that the bombings may have set Iran's nuclear program back by only a few months at best. We'll spare you a replatforming of all of his aggressive attacks on the media for a second, because real news was made. We did learn some new stuff at this press conference. We just didn't learn it from Pete Hegseth, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Dan Kaine, refused to say that the strikes, quote, obliterated Iran's nuclear facilities, as Donald Trump keeps saying. Watch.

[General Dan Kaine]

On Sunday, you said, final battle damage.

[News Anchor]

Will take some time.

[General Dan Kaine]

And you also said, I think BDA is still pending and it would be way too early for me to comment on what may or may not still.

[News Anchor]

Be there at nuclear facility.

[General Dan Kaine]

That was just over three days ago. So what has changed? Would you use the term obliterated as well?

[News Anchor]

Sure. Like I said, we don't do bda. I'll refer that to the intelligence community. And that right there is actually the whole, the whole issue that's being debated. Were the strikes successful in terms of hitting targets? Yes. But did the strikes deliver the result that the administration says they did and says they wanted? As ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes puts it, quote, the only question that matters is whether the Iranian regime has the stuff necessary to build a bomb, and if so, how fast. Obliterating the sites means nothing if the Iranians moved enough 60% uranium centrifuges and other weaponization tools to build a bomb at some possibly unknown location. The regime may be vile, but they are not stupid. And this stuff can be relatively easily relocated. So let me show you more from this press conference. Here's what happened when Fox News Pentagon reporter Hegsest's former colleague Jennifer Griffin asked the incredibly important and respectful and relevant question whether the Iranians move uranium out of the Fordo site. Do you have certainty that all the highly enriched uranium was inside the Fordo Mountain or some of it? Because there were satellite photos that showed more than a dozen trucks there two days in advance. Are you certain none of that highly enriched uranium was moved?

[General Dan Kaine]

Of course.

[Pete Hegseth]

We're watching every single aspect.

[News Anchor]

But, Jennifer, you've been about the worst.

[Advertiser]

The one who misrepresents the most intentionally.

[News Anchor]

What the President says. I'm familiar about the ventilation shafts on Saturday night. And in fact, I was the first to describe the B2 bombers, the refueling, the entire mission with great accuracy. So I take issue with that. Jennifer, you're the worst. If you missed the first part of that statement, that was America's Secretary of Defense saying to fox's highly respected, highly credible, highly experienced Pentagon correspondent, quote, jennifer, you're the worst. And you saw her there take issue with the assessment and go on to defend her reporting. None of which has been disproven. It's just a taste of what happened today at the Pentagon from the Secretary of Defense, whose salary is paid for by all of our taxpayer dollars. Now, a different line of questioning from a different reporter. Hegseth did something different. He said he was, quote, not aware of any intelligence suggesting, quote, things were not where they were supposed to be, end quote, whatever that means. Buried in what was a mountain of details about the mission from Cain and an onslaught of attacks on the press like the one we just played for you by Pete Hegseth is an alarming question. Why does the Trump administration respond to questions from reporters or lawmakers trying to ascertain the success of the mission in striking Iran's nuclear program by attacking everybody asking those questions, forcing the press and the American people and lawmakers with oversight responsibilities to go other places for key facts. New York Times is today reporting that the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency said this, quote, there was no escaping significant physical damage, but that it would be, quote, too much to assert that Iran's nuclear program had been, quote, wiped out after the Israeli and American bombing campaign. The source, Mr. Grassi, noted that not all of Iran's nuclear sites have been struck and said Iranian officials had told him that they would take protective measures for the uranium they had already enriched. Still, he added, the nuclear program has definitely suffered, quote, enormous damage. Breaking in just the last few minutes, senators are emerging from a classified briefing given to them by Trump administration officials on this big question, on this big issue of how effective, what the consequence of the airstrikes are, whether they succeeded in taking out Iran's nuclear program or, quote, obliterating it, as Trump keeps claiming. Question everyone's trying to sift through and find a true answer to after the briefing. There's a dispute now in the readout between Republicans and Democrats. Here's Democratic Senator Chris Murphy's takeaway from the briefing.

[Chris Murphy]

To me, it still appears that we.

[News Anchor]

Have only set back the Iranian nuclear program by a hand of months. There's no doubt there was damage done to the program, but the, the allegations.

[Chris Murphy]

That we have obliterated their program just don't seem to stand up to reason.

[News Anchor]

Doing our own job at ascertaining the facts about US Airstrikes on Iran amid a cloud of confusion from the Trump administration that includes chaos and spin and deflection is where we today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. NBC's Courtney Kuby will join us in a couple of moments. Also joining us, New York Times national security reporter Julian Barnes is here, and retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling is here. Mark, you sent us some some really smart thoughts and Reflections about both the substance and the conduct of this press conference. Let's start there.

[General Dan Kaine]

Yeah. First, I'd like to say, Nicole, Jennifer Griffin is not only a great reporter, but I got to know her in a couple of days. We invited her to go along with us on a staff ride of the Normandy battlefield back when I was commander of US Army Europe. And she was not only a professional reporter, but she was just a good human being. And the question she asked of Secretary Hegseth is a question I would hope that the Pentagon would be asking themselves. Okay, great. We hit the target. Terrific event. You know, wonderful synchronization of weapons systems against the target that the Air Force and the navies were supposed to hit. But the secondary question of all military personnel is, what were the effects? What happened when you hit the target? Was there anybody there? Was there equipment there? Was it removed? And that was the question that Jennifer asked. So that was, number one, something that stood out for me. The second thing was General Kane's presentation I thought was excellent. He did the thing that most military folks want to do. He pumped up the airmen, the sailors, everyone who was involved in the mission, talked about their professionalism, gave a great, detailed account of what they did so the American public can know how well trained and how competent our military forces are in doing what they're asked to do. But he refused to answer the question about BDA because, as he said, I don't do BDA that belongs to the Defense Intelligence Agency and the other intelligence community asked them about it. All I'm asked to do is strike a target that I've been told to strike. It was on the other side of the podium where Secretary Hexseth seemed to have quite a bit of hubris, quite a bit of condescension, quite a bit of insulting of different people, and a great deal of anger on points that really he should be interested in as the Secretary of Defense. It's great from the military standpoint that you hit the target and you conducted this operation in a very professional way. But part of the strategic implications is, did you hit what you aimed at? So those are my initial thoughts, and I have many more if you want to talk about them.

[News Anchor]

I do. Keep going.

[General Dan Kaine]

Well, the other thing, it brought me back to my last time in combat in 2007 and eight commanding forces in northern Iraq. We had a very big area of operations, and every night we were connected to the Joint Special Operations Command. Every night they would conduct targeted raids against terrorist organizations. And the next morning after I got the report, during the nighttime, the next morning, their liaison officer to my headquarters would come in and say, hey, sir, we had three jackpots and five dry holes. Now, in military speak, that means they captured three individuals or had very good success at three locations. And in five locations they didn't find anything. And that was because of either faulty intelligence or the people who were supposed to be there didn't show up. I treated all those missions as very successful because we had special operations soldiers going into locations that were very dangerous. Their operations were very synchronized. Their command and control was magnificent. They were well trained and they thought they were going to get a target to have effects. But in the case I just gave you as an example, three received or actually found terrorists, five did not. But I'm not going to, you know, get all huffy about the fact that five of them were reporting back to me that they didn't hit their target. So that's the thing I don't understand is why this has become such a big deal. The other piece that Secretary Hexa seemed to beat on the table about is the post strike intelligence, which is something that always happens. That's the initial intelligence report from diagnosis saying, here's what we assess happened. I haven't read that. I don't have a top secret clearance anymore, so I don't know what it said. But he was very proud of holding up that one piece of paper that said marginal confidence or low confidence in the results. That's what it always says on the post strike results until you get more intelligence. And General Kaine was very correct in saying, hey, I don't have the intelligence yet. It's going to take a while because all assessments, all intelligence analysis takes days, weeks, even months to determine if the strike was good, what did it do and what effects did it have. Those are all the important aspects of any kind of combat operation. And it seems that Mr. Hegseth and the president himself don't want to go there and conduct a proper after action report and look for intelligence that gives them feedback that will help their next steps in dealing with Iran and Israel. So those are some additional things that troubled me watching that press conference.

[News Anchor]

Courtney has joined us. Courtney, I need someone to rewind the tape and explain to me where the strawman came from. Because no one. I was on the air Saturday night. I was here when Donald Trump addressed the nation. Barry McCaffrey called the mission bold and successful the next morning. I mean, no one person that I have identified, identified has called into question the competence, the skill, the courage of the men and women who carried out the strikes, there aren't really questions about hitting the targets. It's clear that what they were told to strike, they struck. What has happened? Where did this thing get so perverted and twisted that Hegseth is screaming at Pentagon reporters? What seems to be at issue is whether or not the thing that we're told the strikes were dissolved, designed to deal with, which is Iran's nuclear program. We're all trying to ascertain the facts of where that program stands. What am I missing?

[Courtney Kuby]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's the instinct that we have now seen over the last several months with Secretary Hegseth to respond to questions with an immediate attack. And that's what we saw play out here today. And I think that one reason that it was just so on display was we had the juxtaposition of the secretary of Defense attacking reporters next to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General Dan Kaine, who presented this thoughtful, detailed presentation of what happened not only at those strikes last weekend by the US military, but also he provided a little bit more color and context into the attack on Al Udid, the US the base housing Americans in Qatar, earlier this week. I think what's lost here is the nuance between the notion that there can be a mission that was carried out successfully, with tremendous precision, with tremendous courage by the men and women, men and women who were involved in that. And still the ultimate objective may not have been met here. And that's what's under question still, that we simply don't know, because all the intelligence, if it's come in, we don't know about it yet. And how that would work, Nicole, is exactly what General Kaine laid out today. He explained that this was years of research looking into the Ford Owl facility, years of testing and research into creating this specific bomb that would have the ability to blast through the reinforced concrete and the granite that was, you know, 2 to 300ft deep above the facility to actually just reach it. And the chairman laid out exactly how they tested, how they specifically targeted the vulnerabilities at Fordo in the ventilation system, how many bombs were used, the. And the way that they believe that they hit, the exact aim points at the exact angles that the bombs needed to go in. And then the evidence that he said about the explosions actually happening, the pilots seeing the explosions happen, where he stopped short was saying, and because of that, we have evidence from people on the ground, from intelligence, from whatever it is, saying that we know with confidence that the facility was not only destroyed, but. But that it also destroyed any kind of elements of the nuclear program that were held there. So that's the difference here. It is very possible that two things can be factual here. The mission was carried out exactly the way it was intended. They hit all of their targets. They got out without being detected by the Iranians. It was a complete, from a military perspective, that was all carried out perfectly. But it's still not clear whether it actually destroyed not only Fordo, which is the only one we're talking about here, but the two other facilities that the United States targeted in the strike strikes last weekend.

[News Anchor]

Julian Barnes, I feel like we would be having, we'd be covering, we'd be leading with Medicaid and the president's big, not so beautiful bill if the Trump cabinet wasn't screaming, obliterated over and over again and foaming at the mouth about the impact on Iran's nuclear program. What are the facts as we understand them today about the state of Iran's nuclear program?

[Advertiser]

I think you frame this at the top really well, right? Because for days we've been talking about the damage to these sites, right? How badly damages Fordo, Estefan Natanz. But that's, as Courtney was saying, only half the program problem, right? There's the damage on the sites and then there's the damage to the nuclear program. And then there's a third question about like, even if the nuclear program itself is damaged, even if they can't make fuel in the future, how much of their stockpile is left over and could they use that to race to a bomb? Even if their overall program is damaged, is their ability to make a bomb only delayed by a few months? And so we've kind of been debating the wrong thing. You know, Jennifer Griffin's question, what happened to the stockpile is the right question to be asking, you know, where is it? Do we know how much was destroyed, how much remains? We don't know the answer to those questions. There are European intelligence officials there is the IAEA suggesting that a lot of the stockpile was saved by Iran. We've known for a long time that was the Iranian plan. So that's what US Intelligence agencies ought to be looking at. Hopefully they are looking at it. We believe that's their mission. They're looking at it. But, but the president's comments about this, his very broad comments kind of limit everybody's ability to talk honestly about it. And that's the difficulty we're having right now into getting at the truth of how much this set back the program, how much this set back a quest for a bomb in Iran. And where do we go from here?

[News Anchor]

Well, and I want to ask all of you to explain to me why that matters, because as someone put it to me, this isn't the last time Israel is going to appreciate America's role there. But if we're asked to go back, what will we be asked to do if Donald Trump has told the world that we have, quote, obliterated Iran's nuclear program? So that'll be the thought experiment on the other side. Also ahead for us, a major blow to Donald Trump and the Senate Republicans rather cruel plan to gut Medicaid in the president's great big bill. They're all at the White House hashing it out, scrambling to keep this incredibly unpopular political titanic together for some reason. Plus, new reporting about life inside an ICE detention center as workplace raids around our country continue. My friend and colleague Jacob Soborough will be here with new reporting. And later, Senator Lissa Slotkin will be here on all of this, as well as what what she's doing to help push her party forward in the face of the many growing threats to US national security and economic security. We'll have all those stories and much more. And deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Chris Murphy]

Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes this week.

[News Anchor]

On my podcast, why Is this Happening?

[Chris Murphy]

Gia Tolentino, staff writer at the New.

[News Anchor]

Yorker, on what this news cycle combined.

[Chris Murphy]

With social media together are doing to our brains.

[Courtney Kuby]

The things that are fake look extreme. The things that are real are almost unbelievable.

[News Anchor]

And then the result is this slurry.

[Chris Murphy]

In our mind that causes this permission.

[Courtney Kuby]

Structure to detach from the material reality of the world.

[Chris Murphy]

That's this week on why is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now.

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And follow start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter, sharp insights from voices you trust, standout moments from your favorite shows, and fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. Sign up [e-mail].

[News Anchor]

We'Re back with Courtney Julian and General Hertling Julian, let me start back with you, because we just learned from Senator Lindsey Graham. This, this is his readout after the briefing. Quote, the program was obliterated in those three sites, but they still have. I don't know where the 900 pounds of highly enriched uranium exists, but it wasn't part of the target set. So U.S. senator Lindsey Graham, as close of an ally as Donald Trump has, is saying that the 900 pounds of highly enriched uranium wasn't targeted. This feels new.

[Advertiser]

Yeah. No, we know that the enriched uranium wasn't at Fordo. Right. It normally would be moved from Fordo to Estefan, where the Iranian nuclear reactors are. If you want to do something with their enriched uranium, that's where you would do it. And the IAEA lost track of it in days before the strikes. Right. So that they don't know exactly where it is. And so what we don't know is how much the US Knows where the secret sites the Iranians moved it to, how much they moved it to. Is it the entire stockpile? Is it part of the stockpile? So these are pretty big questions. And I think it's telling that Lindsey Graham came out and said, you know, said what has become obvious, that these strikes were about centrifuges. They were about metallization. They were about different parts of the nuclear process. And we do think the centrifuges were damaged, very badly damaged at Fordo. We do believe that there is damage to the overall program. But the question about the stockpile is enormously important, because if you were going to make a bomb, that's what you would make a bomb with. And if you were going to look for leverage in diplomatic negotiations, that's what they would use. That's why this stockpile is important for the Iranians, whether or not they were to make a bomb.

[News Anchor]

I mean, Courtney, let me ask a dumb question. What is the downside of the White House and Pete Hegseth just moving onto the Lindsey Graham message, you know, that we still, I mean, and if not, move on to the Lindsey Graham readout, what on earth does Trump think he's negotiating with Iran? Over and about.

[Courtney Kuby]

You know, it's one thing that I have been trying to get an answer to and had hoped to get one actually, at the briefing today is. Was the mission of what's known as Operation Midnight Hammer, this U.S. military mission in Iran? Was the mission the destruction of three sites, or was the mission the destruction of the Iranian nuclear program? Because the two are being conflated as if they were the same thing here. And it Seems as if the US Military was told, go in and take out these three sites, destroy the infrastructure. But as Julian points out, and as you know, we've been talking about here, if they're not destroying the stockpile, and frankly, if they're not destroying the know how within the program, and they're not destroying the will to create a nuclear weapon, then you have not destroyed the program. And the reality is, I don't know how you would do that with military strikes unless you just take out everyone who's involved in the nuclear program and the leadership all at once and you take out the stockpile. And that would be a nearly impossible undertaking, if not a long term one. So the uranium is the key here. That's one of the reasons that it became such a contentious part of the briefing here today. And that is because it is a essentially, what is the fuel for a nuclear weapon? If Iran still has this highly enriched uranium in a stockpile, even if many of their facilities have been damaged or destroyed, they could still, depending on what still exists in their infrastructure, they could still have the ability to produce that weapon. And that is really another one of the things that has just been the crux of the issue here that's not clear. The reality is President Trump and then everyone after him in his administration came out and talked about the program being obliterated. And that was what really started us down this path of people questioning the intelligence and what they actually know and what actually occurred here.

[News Anchor]

I mean, General Hartling, the other consequence of this, it's really been a debacle of confusing information, and that's the most generous thing you can say about it, has seemed to take some of the attention away from the actual authority and practice of carrying out these strikes without any congressional authorization or notification. How do you see the broader set of issues that have been raised by the last 72 hours?

[General Dan Kaine]

The broader set? I think Courtney summarized it very well. She's been at the Pentagon too long. She understands the essence of strategy. It is the difference between what you're asked to do and what you do. Again, if the President and the Secretary of Defense had come out and said, hey, the Israelis could not damage these three facilities, so we had to bring in B2s with the MOP projectiles and we did it for them. Mission accomplished. We love it. But like Courtney just said, there was a conflation into something different than that about ending their nuclear capabilities from inside of Iran. So the wider issue, in my view, is the fact that intelligence should drive operation and political masters of the military establishment should give orders to the military that are very precise and very direct in terms of what they want us to do. The reason mission creep occurs and there's these kind of contentious issues that go on is because there is conflation of an end state. What do you want the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines to do for you? And how does it contribute to national strategy? And the fact that the intelligence community has now been drawn in and there's insults going toward different intelligence agencies and some people are saying some things and others are saying others and we're now depending on outside governments to tell us what our intelligence should be. That to me is extremely dangerous. And the fact that everybody is defensive about it as opposed to saying, okay, what do we do to make this right and how transparent can we be with the American public and how do we help reporters understand so they can give the citizens of our country the right information? That's where we're seeing a loss of cultural dynamics, in my view. And it and it's troubling and it's dangerous because there's going to be a next step. This is not a one and done. It depends on what the intelligence drives for the next steps, how the diplomacy comes out of it and what the president, Secretary of Defense, Secretary of State, Dr. To continue this successful military operation to bring it to a diplomatic close.

[News Anchor]

Courtney Kuby, Julian Barnes, Lt. Gen. Mark Hartling, the best of the best. Thank you for a really nuanced and smart conversation. I'm grateful to all of you. After the break. For us, Donald Trump pushing ahead with his so called big beautiful bill event at the White House this hour. Despite a big beautiful setback today for Republicans and quickly plunging poll numbers for the Republicans who are going to have to pass it. That story's next. Donald Trump is turning up the pressure on Washington Republicans to pass his disastrous and deeply unpopular domestic agenda, what he calls the, quote, big beautiful bill through Congress and for him to sign it by the Fourth of July holiday. This hour he is holding an event to tout the bill and sway Republican holdouts. The bill is right now stuck in the Senate and Trump is getting impatient. This week on Truth Social, Trump told Senate Republicans this to quote, lock themselves in a room if you must, in all caps, going on to say, quote, no one goes on vacation until it's done, end quote. Just one problem. The Senate parliamentarian has dealt a major blow to the bill which could result in some of the key health care provisions being stripped out of the package. The move has sent most Republicans in the Senate back to the drawing board to get a bill that is in compliance with the Senate rules. But some, like Senator Tommy Tuberville, think the answer is firing the parliamentarian, calling her, quote, woke and saying she, quote, should be fired asap. Joining our coverage, NBC News White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard and former senior adviser to President Biden and Vice President Harris. Mitch Lander is here. Von Hilliard, we had Sarah Longwell on yesterday who was going over some of the focus group reactions to the big, not so beautiful bill. She said that the only thing more unpopular than this bill is maybe Mitch McConnell, who's now taking a lead role and getting his colleagues to grin and bear it or swallow it or whatever we want to say about it, which is an interesting role reversal for Mitch McConnell. He used to be so protective of Republican electoral prospects. This bill is an electoral loser. What's going on?

[Vaughn Hilliard]

Right. And especially when you take into the context here, Nicole, that look, Democrats had to do this too. And I know the mayor was a part of this process of trying to make sure you can get Kyrsten Sinema, Joe Manchin on board. And this go around. You have Mitch McConnell as part of Republican Senate, where you've got Lisa Murkowski, Kriski, you've got Susan Collins, but you also have Thom Tillis, who's up for re election next year. You have Josh Hawley, you have Ron Johnson out of Wisconsin, Rand Paul in Kentucky. There are still some question marks there. And ultimately, we have seen Republicans over the last eight years, consistently outside of the vote to save the Affordable Care act back in 2017, rally legislatively behind the president's agenda. And that is what we are watching unfold actually in the White House right now. Speaker Mike Johnson is there. He just praised him as a legend, the president did, of the speaker. And so by and large, here you are looking at a parliamentarian who could become an increasing target here. She's the one who essentially goes through the bill passed through the House and well through the Senate and says this doesn't relate to spending, this doesn't relate to the budget. Right. Some of the cuts to SNAP funding, some of the cuts, including for gender affirming care to, to Medicaid, some of the cuts to the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, essentially she's thrown all of those out. And now it's up to this administration to get some of these other Republican senators to sign on board, even without some of these parts of this bill that are, that are, that are a part of it.

[News Anchor]

Vaughn, why does Donald Trump think he.

[Vaughn Hilliard]

Wants the bill why does the president think he wants the bill and why does he want to buy July 4th? I think that this is somebody here who, so I think under questioning about the specifics of it has not been explicit. And so I have reservations about whether he is fully aware of the exacts of within it when he's been asked about Medicaid funding. He, Josh Hawley walked away, for example, and said that he was assured by the president that they would not take cuts to Medicaid. But that's exactly what is happening in this bill here. And so the president is literally here in the West Wing right now having this event here where he is talking and touting the reasons that it should be passed. But in the first half hour that I had been listening, I actually hadn't heard much in terms of specifics outside of saying that this is part of a, this is the Republicans one opportunity to, once in a generation, opportunity to pass this magnificent legislation which would also extend some of the tax cuts. So I don't know honestly, to answer, Nicole, your exact question here, other than the president views this and is acknowledging that come next year it's going to be tougher to get some of this through. And so this is a moment here where he needs John Thune and Speaker Johnson to get this across the finish line and he wants it by July 4th.

[News Anchor]

Mitch, I don't root for any legislation that will harm any human being. This legislation will harm a lot of people. I'll read the reporting in the New York Times. The bill will reduce the number of Americans with health insurance by 11 million and 16 million. If you take into account the fact that Republicans refuse to extend expanded tax credits for private health insurance in the Obamacare marketplaces, that 16 million is eerily close to the number of people who were projected to lose coverage under the skinny ACA repeal bill that failed to pass the Senate in 2017. The political consequences are as cataclysmic as the human toll of the passage of this bill. And where does that leave your thoughts this hour?

[Pete Hegseth]

Well, sometimes, you know, those of us that are interested in politics day to day worry about the X's and O's, what the parliamentarians said, whether people are going to put votes together. At the end of the day, it obscures the entire point of why somebody should want to be president or somebody should be, want to be in the Senate and Congress, and that's to help people, not hurt them. This bill essentially does one very simple, cataclysmically bad thing, which is basically give a tax cut to the wealthiest people in America in exchange for hurting people by taking away their health care and taking away food. That's essentially what it does. There are lots of other things and bells and whistles in it, but it is the largest transfer of money from the middle class and working class to the wealthy that was seen in a very long period of time. The reason why Josh Hawley and you see some other Republican senators against this bill is because they live in rural, they represent states that are rural, much like Louisiana. And they know that if this bill passes, they're going to close rural hospitals, that if a mama is having a heart attack and she calls and there's not an emergency room, thereby she's going to stroke out. And they understand that. They know that emergency services can't get the people that they needed. They know that a lot of children that have gone to public schools that are in their states are going to go hungry. And why, I mean, like, really why, why is the president using so much of his power to transfer wealth to the wealthiest people who don't need this particular money nearly as much as the working class folks? That's why in the polling data, you see people that voted for Trump twice kind of scratching their head, wanting to kind of trust the president, although they know that when his lips are moving, he's lying, hoping that he's got something else coming out of his pocket. But when you put in line raising tariffs, hurting the economy, taking away health care, taking away food, people are starting to go, you know what the hey is going on here. And so I hope they don't pass the bill. I hope a couple of courageous Republican senators stand up and say, as a matter of policy, this is bad for the country, for all Americans, red and blue. And I hope the president stops using his power to hurt people and one day starts to use his power to help people.

[News Anchor]

Mitch, what does it say to you that Trump has totally reoriented his presidency in the first term? He had people around him who helped him keep an eye on working class Americans that he viewed as maga. Steve Bannon was the public face in terms of advocating for that part of his base, but he seemed to at least try politically to not hurt working class people he saw as being for him. This bill will hurt Americans. I mean, they won't wait to ask you who you voted for before you're denied health care in so many parts of this country.

[Pete Hegseth]

Of course, it's so hard to understand why Donald Trump does anything, why he lies when he could just as easily speak the truth. And put us in a position of doing some good things in this country. But for some reason, the man, the man just can't seem to do that. But to be clear, not everybody who's working class is maga. Some working class folks are conservative, some of them are moderate, some of them.

[News Anchor]

Are liberal, of course.

[Pete Hegseth]

But you know what they know? What they know is that their pocketbooks are hurting and they, they took a chance on the president. Some people who had voted for Biden switched over and voted for Trump because he said to them, if you give me power, I'm going to help you. And what he's doing here is hurting them in the most painful, damaging way. Many, many people that live in rural areas have special needs kids that desperately need what these health care bills give them and they know that he's taken it away from them. I don't know what his political calculation is. It's not a wise one. But the point, bigger point, is it's not good for the health and the well being of the American people.

[News Anchor]

Yeah. And my point wasn't, I mean, there are millions of working class voters who vote for Democratic officials. Trump seems to always think he can take a sifter or sieve and save his voters. You can't go out and save people based on political affiliation.

[Pete Hegseth]

No, I was making the point that not all working class people are maga. Some of them are Trump voters necessarily maga. There's a group of people out there that just kind of float in between, don't like Trump, don't like Biden, don't like anybody but looking for somebody to take care of the things that they worry about every day, which is making ends meet, taking care of their kids and giving their kids a better life than they had. And they're not feeling it right now.

[News Anchor]

Mitch, I'm going to ask you to stick around. We want to ask you about the ICE raids that have hit very close to home for you. Vaughn, thank you for your reporting. Please come back if anything develops where you're standing today on this story or anything else. Thank you for being with us. Quick break. We'll be right back with Mitch Landrieu. Mitch, tell me the story of Donna.

[Pete Hegseth]

Well, you know, we have an immigration crisis in America and the president has gone on TV saying we have all these criminals crossing our border and we got to get the bad guys and the criminals away, which nobody disagrees with, by the way, but the White House is lying to people. Stephen Miller and Tom Holman have basically said we're going after the bad Folks, if you happen to be around when we get the bad folks and we pull you up into our net, we might get you out, too. But just the other day, the day of the Iranian hit on their nuclear facilities, a bunch of ICE agents went to a woman's house. Her name is Donna Kashanian. She lives in the city of New Orleans. She's a New Orleans citizen. She's been here for 50 years. She's married. Her husband's an American citizen. Her daughter's an American citizen. She worked for the Lakeview Civic Association. She worked in the Teachers Club. She helped do the fairs for her School for 50 years. I showed up at her house and took her out of her front lawn where she was gardening. They targeted her intentionally because somehow somebody in the White House decided to take away any permit of status that she had, which made her technically illegal. And they went and got her and they took her and they sent her to Hancock County. Then they took her over to Gina, Louisiana, and she's now sitting in a jail in South Louisiana in a place called Basile. And her husband and her daughter are on the way to see her and are desperately trying to find a lawyer. Now, this woman doesn't fit in any category that the president or Stephen Miller or Homa ever talked about. And they are actually not only doing this here, they must be doing it across the country because they targeted her. They knew who she was. They knew where she lived. They went to her house and they ripped her out of a garden, ripped her family apart and tore her community apart. And that's just a damn shame. That is just not who we are as a country. And I think most people in America, even if they support reform of immigration, do not support that abuse of a power by the president and his henchmen.

[News Anchor]

Mitch, let me read a little bit about what you've described. Donna Kashanian was taken into custody Sunday morning in front of her home on Woodland Place. According to her family, she was picking figs with neighborhood children when three unmarked vehicles pulled up around 10am and officers handcuffed her without saying word. Her daughter, Caitlin Milne, said the arrest happened within 60 seconds while she and her father, Kashanian's husband of 35 years, were inside the home unaware. She says she's okay. She's more worried about us, Melnie, her daughter said, fighting back tears. She's our support system. The first thing she said on the phone was to make sure the homeowner's insurance is paid, which stressed me out. Sorry, what does it say to you? About. About Trump and Stephen Miller, that this is what they're doing to reach some arbitrary deportation target.

[Pete Hegseth]

I just can't. I can't fathom why the president or Steve or Holman or anybody thinks that this. It's in America's interest to rip apart American families. So let's. To be clear, she's been here since 1979, and she's been here with permission. Now, when they took her away, they just didn't hurt her. They completely tore apart her family. I mean, they basically eviscerated her family and, by the way, all of her friends in her community. She is part of the fabric of our community. And I defy even the most conservative congressman or senator, Mike Johnson. Please call me Steve. Please call me John Kennedy. Please call me Bill Cassidy. Please call me and tell me what benefit it is to the people of the state of Louisiana, the people of the city of New Orleans, to take this woman and sent her to a country we're not even sure they're sending her back to Iran because the president can now send them anywhere she wants. What benefit is it to us to do that? And what did we lose by this very cruel act? It's okay to be tough on crime and tough on immigration, to make sure that we keep our streets safe, but can't we be smart? Can't we have some level of compassion? Can we think about something that's bigger than ourselves? Please explain this to me and stop telling me that what you're doing is just going after gang members, which, by the way, every mayor in America would help you do. There's no mayor in America that's not going to help you go after a gang member. But when you're going after mamas who are actually just doing their garden and picking figs, who have been here for 50 years now, we got a problem. And Donna is an incredible story, you know, that we should not have to tell in the United States of America on the dawn of our 250th anniversary. That is not what July 4th is about.

[News Anchor]

Will you do me a favor and help us keep up with Donna's story and her legal plight and her family's plight? And if her daughter or husband would like to join us, they're welcome to anytime. Mitch Lander, thank you very much.

[Pete Hegseth]

I just got off the phone with them five minutes ago, and they asked me to please, you know, extend their thanks to people in the country for looking out after her and the American people, by the way.

[News Anchor]

All right, well, let's look out for Donna together. Please come back.

[Pete Hegseth]

Thank you.

[News Anchor]

Up next for us, it has been 10 years since the landmark Supreme Court decision making same sex marriage the law of the land. After the break, former President Barack Obama reflects on that moment. Now that happened because of a whole.

[Advertiser]

Series of individual acts of courage by individual citizens, starting with gay and lesbian couples coming out of the closet, being.

[News Anchor]

Willing to suffer, being ostracized and discriminated against and harassed and bullied and in.

[Andrea Flores]

Some cases, physically assaulted.

[News Anchor]

What seems like this thunderbolt coming from.

[Advertiser]

The Supreme Court is actually this accumulation.

[News Anchor]

This, this culmination of all these individual citizens doing what they think is right. That's former President Barack Obama reflecting on this day in history. Ten years ago today, the Supreme Court made same sex marriage the law of the land in a hugely consequential ruling guaranteeing more rights to Americans under the 14th Amendment. And now today, 10 years later, the U.S. supreme Court is set to rule on a case that once again hinges on the Constitution's 14th Amendment, namely, Donald Trump's attempt to end birthright citizenship. It's one of half a dozen cases the court has left to decide on the court's final day of the term tomorrow. If you want to stay up to date on all things Supreme Court, just scan the QR code on your screen right now to have the Deadline Legal newsletter delivered straight to your inbox every Friday. Quick break for us. Up next, Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin joins the conversation. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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As President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda, follow along with MSNBC's newest newsletter, Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how their effect affecting the American people.

[News Anchor]

The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.

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[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

I know this is a fractious time in our economy and in Washington. It seems like we can't move forward. Democrats are stuck playing constant defense against what's coming out of the White House. But defense is simply not enough. No team in history, on the field or in Washington, D.C. ever won a damn game without going on the offense. We need to offer a different vision and demonstrate an affirmative positive plan for the country. That's our responsibility and what this moment demands of us.

[News Anchor]

Hi again, everyone. It's five o' clock in the East. Hear that, Democrats? That's what offense sounds like. That was Senator Alyssa Slotkin today, not just talking the talk, but clearly willing to walk the walk as she announced her new economic war plan for our country. We'll get to exactly what is inside the plan in a second, but right now we make note of the the fact that the Senator made a deliberate choice where to announce her plan. She decided to come together with people, in this case speak at a think tank where agreement is not always guaranteed. Slotkin told the Washington Post about her choice for the venue, the center for American Progress. Quote, we need to be able to have tough, real conversations about the way forward as a party. And we can't do that by only talking to people who agree with you. But, and so I went right to a place that in I think many ways we have big agreements on things, but in other ways we just really disagree. The bridging of divides and disagreements, or at least efforts to do that, are a rarity at this moment in our politics, in our government. Right now, everything, even down to national intelligence documents and national security, has been hyper politicized. Donald Trump has sown deep divisions in the country and he amplifies them around the clock with a right wing ecosystem. He hardens those divisions every chance he gets. So when things like an extremely significant and consequential military operation take place, assessments are only viewed through a partisan lens. On one side of the political divide, honest questions are framed as attacks from legislators or reporters. Earlier today, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth held a press conference with the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Dan Kaine, to discuss the impact of the US Strikes on Iran. Hegseth started off by aggressively attacking the journalists in the room, some of them his own former colleagues. Meanwhile, the press was doing its job, asking questions, trying to assert facts about the full impact of the military strikes on Iranian nuclear sites, which at this hour remains unclear. We do not know the extent of the damage to these sites. We do not know if Iran moved its uranium before the missiles struck those sites. Even Trump's own Chairman of the Joint Chiefs did not use Trump's favorite word, obliterated, like Trump has done repeatedly, to describe the impact of the strikes of the weekend, the politicization of everything, including things that used to be off limits, like our military and its work, is where we start the hour with Michigan Democratic Senator Alyssa Slotkin. She's a member of the Senate Armed Services and Homeland Security Committees and a former analyst at the CIA. Senator, thank you for being here today.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Sure. Thanks for having me.

[News Anchor]

Let's start with what, you know, the facts to be about the strike Saturday night. What, what, what do you know that we might not know yet? And what can you share with us?

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Well, we did have the official Senate briefing on the Iran strike from Secretaries Hegseth Rubio, the director of the CIA and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs. So that was good. That should have been earlier this week, but it happened and that was important and a lot of senators participated. I mean, obviously I can't go into the details of the briefing. It was classified. But I think, I think there's no way around it. I think the damage was significant. And as someone who was at the Pentagon in a previous life, who worked on some of those same Iran war plans, you know, when the US Military gets involved, there's going to be significant damage done to these facilities. So I don't think there's a doubt about that. I don't think there's a doubt about the fact that there's no air defenses above Iran right now, which is kind of unprecedented for the last 30, 40 years. So there's definitely big change happening right now. I think the president is not taking his cues from his intelligence community and from his military leaders. He's obviously playing to the rafters on what he's saying about the strike. But there's no way to get around the fact that it was a significant, had a significant impact.

[News Anchor]

What do you make of the White House doubling and tripling Dow on the word obliterated to describe not just the physical structures that were targeted by the very capable men and women of the military, but the Iranian weapons program itself.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah. I mean, like I said without going into details, there was significant damage done. I don't the word obliterated, I can't speak to that word. I think, honestly, just so everyone understands, when the military takes, you know, action, there's an operation, it's not the military that assesses the battle damage.

[Julian Barnes]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

It's the intelligence community that assesses that. And that takes a long time. It takes information from human sources, from all kinds of other sneaky squirrel places where we get information. It takes a minute. And I say that as a former CIA officer. So anyone who says, we know exactly what happened, we know exactly the extent of the damage is just not understanding how our system works and what's factual. So I don't think the president is using language based on any intelligence report. He's using language that are. That's around marketing of these strikes. And. But that's not to say it wasn't an important strike.

[News Anchor]

Let me read you something that Trump has announced his new policy on Truth Social. Today. He said, quote, the Democrats are the ones who leak the information on what he's now calling the perfect flight to the nuclear sites in Iran. They should be prosecuted. Are you concerned about efforts to, in his words, quote, prosecute lawmakers who had access to intelligence?

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah. Again, that was described to me as someone, someone, whoever leaked it read a DIA report and then called a reporter. I have no idea how that got out. I will just, just tell you this. As a former CIA officer there. If you get a security clearance, there are certain responsibilities that you take with that. And you shouldn't be leaking classified information. It doesn't matter if you like the president or don't like the president. It doesn't matter if you like the operation or don't like the operation. There are rules around having access to classified information. And we've had Republicans that are leaky. We've had Democrats that are leaky over the past 25 years that I've seen this town. So, so I've always said, like, if you are leaking classified information, you should be held accountable.

[News Anchor]

What is, what are you able to share with your constituents or with the public about your understanding today, if you have one, about the damage done to Iran's nuclear weapons capability?

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Again, I just, I know, I'm a senator, and I know a lot of people, you know, talk after these briefings. I'm a senator who's a former CIA officer. That was a classified briefing that I went to. The damage was significant. The skill that was required by our military to pull off that kind of a strike was significant. And, but the administration, I think, is, you know, to me, being a little bit cavalier with sort of the response options. The day after planning that really wasn't done on this kind of a strike.

[Julian Barnes]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

That's the thing to me is that you can have a great strike, but what comes next?

[Julian Barnes]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

If they had fired at our base in Qatar, which was an unprecedented thing for them to do, and instead of hitting nothing, they had hit a chow hall full of American soldiers and killed 50 people, where would we be right now? What would we be doing right now? Would Donald Trump have felt the need to dig in his heels and respond and suddenly you're in a cycle of escalation that you can't stop. So I think they're being they were a little lacking in the day after planning, which is what a generation of us who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan, we saw that miss in the last series of wars, we did not plan for the day after. So I think that's certainly happening. But in terms of the actual strikes, there was significant damage. Did it end any potential of the program? It's too early to know now. I don't think so. But I also want to say it's not just about the nuclear activity or the nuclear materials. It's also the psychology of the regime.

[Julian Barnes]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

This regime did sign up to a cease fire very quickly after the U.S. the U.S. acted, and they are in a very vulnerable position and that is very different than where we were five years ago, eight years ago, 10 years ago with the.

[News Anchor]

I want to ask you about the speech you gave today. I want to play a little bit more of your message about the economy.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

It's extremely important to understand and and like focus ourselves as Democrats, as Americans on this issue of the economy and of costs. Because this is what the president ran on. Yeah. This is the lead foot in any pushback on him. You know, a Qatari jet, we can talk about all that all day long. But what he's doing is distracting us from talking about the very thing he ran on, which he said he was going to put more money in people's pockets and in every single category, your groceries, your insurance, your utility bill, like go down the list of how a family does their their budget and he's making them pay more, not less. And we should be relentlessly talking about that.

[News Anchor]

I mean, to your point, we have relentlessly covered the costs on I have a one and a half year old, so I get the alerts and the price differences with everything I have bought over the last 19 months. And it is stunning. Things are going up. How do you stay on that message, stay on that plan as a party?

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah. Well, this is what I tried to do by laying out, you know, my best stab at an economic war plan is that the president ran on lowering your costs. He's not doing that. But you can't just play defense. You actually have to play offense and lay out your own plan. And so I literally sat down over the past month and figured out, based on me being from Michigan and hearing from people all the Time what they're most concerned about and what they want out of their elected leaders. That's a focus on job creation, on housing, on health care, which every single single American I know thinks is broken. It's getting at those big things that every single family in America cares about and not getting distracted. And I wanted to put that out there. How do we bring back jobs to the United States? How do we make critical supply chains, make them here in America and not elsewhere? How do we get prepared for artificial intelligence and how our education system has to change? You can't beat something with nothing. So I put something out. But I think one of the things that's an important message, especially this week, is that whether you're a moderate or a progressive, wherever you are in the spectrum, the economy and costs and preserving a strong middle class is something that should unite us. And so let's focus there and punch back at the president on those issues.

[News Anchor]

Well, and the idea of an economic war plan is inherently offensive. You know, I mean, I wonder how much you are placing your training and your not just political DNA, but professional DNA into the politics of the moment.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Well, it's the only thing I know how to do.

[News Anchor]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

We're all prisoners to our experience at the CIA and the Pentagon. You know, doing war planning was part of my job. I would just say it's also very clarifying though, right. What problem are we trying to solve? The middle class class in America is shrinking and that is pissing people off. They feel like the American dream isn't working. They feel like that idea that if they work hard and play by the rules, they get ahead and their kids do better, that is not a believable thing for a lot of people. And it pains me to say that.

[Julian Barnes]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Our young people, middle class families, blue collar workers, they're not sure whether the American dream is a real thing anymore. And so I just, you got to attack that. That is existential to who we are as a country. But so, yes, I treat it when something's an existential threat at the Pentagon, you throw some elbows in order to deal with that problem because it is so important to who you are.

[News Anchor]

Senator, what is your best advice or thought or sort of mission statement or bumper sticker on the non reality of Trump making America great again in terms of the economy? I mean, I think you get at it in your speech that this is his greatest political weakness because this is his greatest betrayal. People voted for him despite all the criminal convictions, despite all the baggage, despite the deadly insurrection, because they thought he would make life. They thought they'd be able to breathe a little easier financially. And that was all a lie. How do you convey that on offense?

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

I mean, I think the easiest thing in the world is people know their own family budget. They may not know policy. They may not know this place, you know, Washington, the Capitol, but they know their own family budget and how much they save or don't save every single month. So keep book. Just keep book.

[Julian Barnes]

Right.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

You know how much the price of milk and eggs are. You know, your insurance, you know, your health insurance costs, which are about to spike after January 1st. Right. Because of this bill. He wants to pass the this week. Keep book on how much money you had before he started and how much money you're keeping now that he's in. And you don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the prices are going up in people's lives.

[News Anchor]

Thank you so much, Senator Alyssa Slogan, for being here on this day. It's always great to talk to you. Thank you. Joining our coverage professor of history at New York University, Ruth Ben Ghiat. Also joining us, writer and editor for Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter is here. Amanda, I want to start with with the senator's response. Just plays it straight down the line. Said less than both Lindsey Graham and Senator Chris Murphy, a Republican and a Democrat, about what they learned today. But it's clear from Senator Slotkin, from General Kaine that there is a distinction to be made between a successful military operation intended to strike planned targets and the state of the Iranian nuclear program. And the reason we're here is because Donald Trump, I was sitting in this chair, I was live on the air, came out and said that we had obliterated Iran's nuclear program. Where do you think we are in that slowly unfurling ball of twisted and contradictory information?

[Julian Barnes]

I'm sorry if that was for me, I'm sorry. Thank you. Always good to be here. You know, it was really good to hear from Senator Slotkin because I do feel somewhat reassured that we are getting somewhere along the straight story, because here's what happened. I mean, Donald Trump launched a unilateral strike on a foreign country without seeking congressional approval, which, you know, is not unlike other presidents. But the word here so long has been, well, take our word for it. It was a historic, amazing accomplishment. And we aren't taking any questions. And indeed, it was a great accomplishment for our military. But it does not mean that it is not patriotic to ask questions about the intelligence and what the effects of that bombing was going to be in the press conference that we saw from Pete Hexseth this morning did not instill confidence. You know, when I was watching that, all that was going through my head is that this is another data point that the more politicized an official or an agency becomes, the less professional it is. I mean, these hyperbolic statements and the smearing of the press and the cutting out of Democratic lawmakers who might be suspected of leaking intelligence, I mean, those are all indications that they don't want to have anyone near the products of intelligence who might have some degree of pushback. And that is not something that is going to make America safer. And so, you know, it was good to hear the story from Senator Slotkin where she confirmed that there was significant damage. But, you know, I still have a lot of questions, and I think a lot of Americans should in the fact that the story is still. Well, we did the strike. It was successful, by the way. Our air base was struck. And now there's a ceasefire that's going to hold and have lasting peace forever. I mean, I don't. I hope for the best. I sincerely hope that is true. But this is not an administration where they have earned the ability, where Americans should just take their word for it, especially when it comes to these kinds of dangerous foreign interventions and the track record this country has had in the Middle East. And so I still think it's incredibly hard to accept. And I just want people to really think about this. Politicization of the military makes it less professional. You see it with the way that peak headset acts when dealing with these important national security matters. You see it with ice. You see it with these campaign speeches at West Point and Fort Bragg. You see it with the military parades. And what I really worry about is that these are all signs that Donald Trump sees the military as his personal tool to advance his agenda however he sees fit without seeking any kind of authorization from anybody. And you can. We're just left to be in the dark without the data crossing our fingers and hoping for the best.

[News Anchor]

It's such an important point. Tying all those stories together is so vital. I want to bring Ruth in on just that point. I have to sneak in a quick break before I do that. Also ahead for us, how Donald Trump and his administration continue to dig in on this, this claim that Trump made Saturday night that Iran's nuclear program has been, quote, obliterated. Also ahead for us, brand new reporting about the brutal conditions inside ICE detention centers and the horrors facing the men and women the Trump administration is sending to them, including someone we found first introduced you to on this program earlier this week. Our colleague Jacob Sobroff will join us later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Chris Murphy]

To me, it still appears that we.

[News Anchor]

Have only set back the Iranian nuclear program by a handful of months.

[Chris Murphy]

There's no doubt there was damage done to the program. But but the allegations that we have obliterated their program just don't seem to stand up to reason.

[News Anchor]

We're back with Ruth and Amanda. Ruth, just help me understand. No one in America has criticized the men and women of the military. No one has described the military conduct as lacking or inadequate or anything less than heroic. What is this about in the mind of a strong man that you're fighting about something on the margins that takes over and consumes the entire conversation? Well, in part, it's about his ego. And I've actually been very worried. Before the strike took place, I saw him getting into, I call it being in the zone when a strongman has had some setbacks and is feeling threatened and yet has surrounded himself by loyalists, including his secretary of defense. It's very interesting that we're now at 23 members of the administration who were on air talent at Fox News. And many of them have been hired for their ability to be loyal and say the truth as Donald Trump is wants it to be heard. And so the press conference was very interesting because you had Secretary of Defense Hegseth, who meets those criteria. And then you had chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Lt. Gen. Kaine, who is serving this administration but is still anchored in a military culture that respects professionalism and valor and accuracy, accurate information. And so he did not want to say the word obliteration, but it's become like a loyalty. The strongman always needs loyalty tests. And so to use his language that it be a perfect strike because he thought of it and he wanted becomes this kind of megalomaniac drive to have everything the way he needs it to be. Amanda, I've said this off tv. I'm sure I've said it on tv. The Trump story makes you dumber. Covering this incredibly consequential moment with global implications and possibly a great military achievement in the middle of it. The way we have to cover it because of the dynamic Ruth just articulated makes you dumber. And I wonder what you see as an antidote to this moment.

[Julian Barnes]

You know, I think we have to be willing to ask the common sense questions. And one of those common sense questions I have when left at this why was this imminent. I understand Iran having nuclear weapons is dangerous. I don't understand where the rush came from in such a quick amount of time that Donald Trump couldn't even give a heads up to Congress that this was coming. And somehow we're caught by surprise, literally in a matter of hours that we did this. You know, we had to do it. I don't know why. I don't know what the intelligence says. Apparently, you know, you can't question the intelligence at this point. They're smearing reporters who have gotten any bits and bobs that they could, and they're going after leakers who kind of tamp down on that stuff. And I understand, of course, there's laws where you can't leak national security information. But how do we get the real story here? That's what I'm wondering. How do we understand when this really matters? Like, we know Donald Trump lies a lot. Alyssa Slotkin mentioned that maybe he was talking sort of marketing speak, invoking the use of obliterating these facilities. But what obligation do we think our leaders should have when we are talking about using these tremendous and terrifying amounts of force that could take us in all kinds of unforeseen directions? This is where accuracy matters. This is where it's different than lying even about an election. When you were talking about deploying US Troops who are putting their lives on the line to execute the mission. You know, I grew up with a lot of people who joined the military not because they thought, oh, I love this president. They did it to serve the country. And they thought whatever the president that asked of them, they would do unquestioningly. And so, again, I am glad that they executed this mission. I hope it makes the world safer. But I know from everything I've observed of this president since he came down that golden escalator in 2015, that you cannot take his word for it. And this is a conservative principle. Trust but verify is what Ronald Reagan said I want to trust, but it is not, is not denigrating the military to ask for that verification. And, you know, this is something that we really need to have going forward. Why was this needed? What did this do? Can we trust that this peace is lasting? What does it mean for international relations? These are basic questions. We cannot be afraid to ask them.

[News Anchor]

Ruth, To Amanda's really astute points and appropriate, I think, outrage at the way this is being handled and the way questions are being criminalized. I will just add to the record that the only person in the mix at all who's been reckless with national defense information, actually criminally charged for his mishandling of it. Is the current commander in chief.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

Yeah.

[Chris Murphy]

Yes.

[News Anchor]

And so part of what Amanda is describing is the personalization of power. And this is in my book, Strongman, I work with this idea of personalist rule when indeed the military and all other institutions become the personal tool of the leader. So the judiciary becomes, you know, for his revenge on his imagined enemies, and the military serves him, but in a very personal manner in his head. And so the timing, and this is where the timing, you know, we don't know what the timing was in terms of military intelligence, the why, and that's what Amanda was saying. But I saw him getting into a state that other leaders like him where they have had setbacks, as I said, and they feel threatened and they want to do something that makes them feel glorious and so that you can never underestimate the personal needs of the leader, even if it puts people in potential harm's way. Yeah. The Wag the Dog phenomenon. Ruth Bengiot and Amanda Carpenter, really important conversation. Thank you both. When we come back, there are new developments to tell you about. In the case of the landscaper and father of three United States Marines, he was brutally and violently arrested while doing his job. He was at work outside of California, ihop. Our friend and colleague Jacob Soborough will be our guest after a very short break. Stay with us. I've never seen him like this. He's still wearing the same clothes that they got him in.

[Andrea Flores]

He still has blood on his shirt from the beating.

[News Anchor]

His eyes are still burning. He hasn't been able to shower. He hasn't been able to wash his face. He says he's in a.

[General Dan Kaine]

In a.

[News Anchor]

In a cage, you can say, with at least 70 other people. No privacy, one toilet. He's received water maybe once a day and very, very little food. That you may remember was alejandro Barranco, the U.S. marine veteran whose father, Narciso, was brutally arrested by ICE agents. He was with us this week telling us about the hell his father has gone through since his arrest. The video of Narciso's arrest is shocking and deeply disturbing. While at work doing his job as a landscaper, he was beaten by ICE agents and shoved into an UN unmarked car. It shocked millions of Americans. Alejandro now tells NBC News that his dad has been transferred to Adelanto, a private prison in the desert outside of Los Angeles. It is a prison notorious for its terrible conditions. An inspector general's report from the first Trump administration cited concerns about, quote, untimely and inadequate Detainee medical care and nuisance in detainee cells that does not appear appear to be an outlier. A brand new investigation by wired into 10 of the nation's largest immigration detention centers, including that one at Atlanto, found that serious medical incidents are rising at many of the sites. The data shows that at least 60% of the centers analyzed had reported serious pregnancy complications, suicide attempts or sexual assault allegations. Wired obtained audio of 911 calls coming from these facilities. We're going to play it for you, but a warning. They are disturbing. Take a listen. Are you an employee? Yeah, I'm an employee. I'm the nurse. Okay, tell me exactly what happened. Our patient, he's on suicide watch, level one. So he hit his head and he bleed from the mouth. Okay. Did he fall or how did he hit his head? On the wall. Taking us to the wall. He hit it. Did he hit his head on the wall on purpose or. Yeah, okay. Okay.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

All right.

[News Anchor]

One second here. Yeah, I'm calling the 91 1. Yeah, I'm calling the 9 1. I started. Okay, you know what? Never mind.

[Senator Alyssa Slotkin]

You want me to cancel the call?

[News Anchor]

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Joining us now, NBC News correspondent Jacob Soborough and Vice President for Immigration Policy and campaigns at Forward us Andrea Flores. Jacob, do we know anything about that incident? We should say that is reporting from Wired. Do we know anything about that detainee and that call?

[Chris Murphy]

All we know is what Wired has reported so far, Nicole. But just reading that article, listening to the audio and going through the reporting, the extraordinary reporting that they've done, it's consistent with what we've heard about the inside of ice cream facilities for years, and I should say under both Democratic and Republican administrations. You'll remember overcrowded conditions during the beginning of the Biden administration of unaccompanied children that came to the border under the bridge in Del Rio, Texas. When these facilities are overcrowded, no matter who the president is, you run into humanitarian issues. And obviously we have one there in that audio, I mean, horrific audio from Wired Adelanto, where our colleague Suzanne Gamboa is reporting that Alejandro Barranco's father, Narciso is being moved. Is actually a facility that I have been inside in. I went to Adelanto during the height of the family separation policy to meet with a detainee at the time. And they actually let us bring cameras inside the facility when we went inside. And I will never forget what I saw inside Adelanto if I could. And I don't want. We don't have like a full screen to put up. But while we look at the footage on the screen, I just want to read to you some of what I wrote at the time. I wrote about it in my book. I said as we passed through an area of the detainees in isolation, I saw one man lying on the floor in a fetal position, locked behind the glass and metal door of a cell, alone on bunk beds and in recreation areas in solitary confinement within the medical unit trauma, just as Juan the father had described to me. It was visible everywhere. And that's the facility that Narciso Barranco has been transferred into. One that wouldn't by court order be able to accept new detainees during COVID because a federal judge decided it was unsafe to put new people inside there.

[News Anchor]

And just to rewind the tape and not lose any context. Why has Narciso been detained and moved to Adelanto again?

[Chris Murphy]

Jacob Zebra I think it's such an important point to make. He was approached by what appeared to be, I mean obviously federal agents looked like they were border patrol agents or might have been ICE agents there with him as he was doing his job as a landscaper, trimming up bushes trimming up bushes outside an IHOP in Santa Ana, California. And as he trimmed those bushes he was approached by federal agents who by the way were recording this with their own camera because subsequent subsequently CBP DHS has released some of their footage and chased and as Alejandro said to us, he was scared, terrified for his life. Masked agents who don't identify themselves running after him as he's trying to do his cotidian activities, his daily job of just making beautifying Santa Ana, California. And they took him down and they violently, as you can see in the video, detained him. Looks like they punched him in the face. They pushed him into a car with what appears to be a baton. And DHS alleges that he tried to assault or attack with his weed whacker those federal agents. And I'll let our viewers make up their own mind when they see the video from multiple angles themselves. But what Alejandro has said is he was just running and he was scared and he was trying to protect himself. He wasn't trying to hurt anybody.

[News Anchor]

And he is the father of three Marines, one a veteran, two active duty Marines. He's been in this country for decades. That's right, Andrea. 9, 12 and 15%. That's the number of Americans who support detaining people who have American born children, who are married US citizens or who have a job. He checks all those boxes. But has been here for decades, long enough to have three sons born in America who would grow up in his house with him as a father and decide to serve their country as Marines. And now he is at Adelanto.

[Andrea Flores]

Yeah, it's a complete outrage and it's a complete misuse of every single one of our taxpayer dollars. So, you know, first of all, we need to start talking about the fact that the public is seeing the results of the promised mass deportations. I think a lot of people hoped that they would be maybe targeted towards maybe people with certain criminal convictions. But DHS has released the number of who isn't people of who's in detention. And what you look at is that they're like Narciso, right? They might just have one civil. A civil infraction, an immigration violation or a traffic violation. Those numbers are skyrocketing in detention. And what I think every American is thinking about and realizing is if you get a traffic ticket, should you be subject to those conditions that we just heard about, where you cannot even get medical care, where there is not enough staff to ensure that you have food? And what really scares me, Nicole, is the fact that the administration is asking for over $40 billion to massively ramp up these private and government run detention facilities. So what they are doing is designing a system to detain the people that Americans are very clear they do not support the detention of. And so we are at a really scary moment right now where we're about to see, you know, it's just an enormous expansion of the abuses of the detention system. And I want to go back to the video as well. Can you imagine in a community having, you know, unidentified law enforcement approach you in that way? And that, I mean, this is one video that we have. And what I think about every day is how many videos we're not seeing and how scary it is to be a Latino American, to be a black American, to be someone who is perceived to be an immigrant. That could happen. Now it feels like it can happen to any of us. And as a former DHS official, the fact that they are unidentified, the fact that they do not have adequate training, the fact that these are some of the largest federal law enforcement agencies in the the entire world operating in our communities. I think we're going to see the polling continue to plummet and public opinion turn against us.

[News Anchor]

And the polling really only had majority support for deporting adjudicated criminals. New York Times Siena poll had 87% of Americans supporting the deportation of adjudicated violent criminals. Yeah, Absent due process. I think about 6% think that's a good idea. No one's going anywhere. We have a lot more to talk through with both of you. We'll do that on the other side of a very short break. Stay with us. All over the place, we saw with our own eyes, with our own bodies, 2 year olds, 3 year olds, 4 year olds who are being walked into court, sat down at the front by themselves, sometimes in booster seats so that they can see with earphones on because they're in this place that they don't know where they are. Many of these kids, when a person finally gets to them and asks them if they know where they are, they say they're on their way to America. They do not believe that they're there because they've been told they will be treated with respect and kindness in America. So they don't believe they're here defending themselves. There's a Homeland Security lawyer at the next table and a huge, a big judge. The whole scary, intimidating situation. And the two year olds are representing themselves. And that is what is happening right now. That's Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach. I interviewed them for Monday's episode of the Best People. But Jacob, it just brought me right back to something you've been saying since the fall before the campaign, that mass deport, you said it at the Republican convention when they were waving mass deportation signs and mass deportation is family separation. And they were in court, immigration court for children. And that was what they witnessed. Tell me what is happening now.

[Chris Murphy]

I was just looking at the numbers that, that Laura Strickler, our colleague, and Julie Ainslie have obtained and just reported about the number of people who have been detained in Los Angeles since all of this kicked off on June 6. And the number is 1,618 undocumented people who are in the Los Angeles area or as part of this operation have been detained. And what it made me think is how many of those are family separations? How many of those are narciso, how many of those are people who have nothing but an immigration violation on their record? As Andrea said, Julia and Laura also reported that going back to October, of the known undocumented people in this country who have been convicted of a homicide, 6% of them, 06, not 60, have been picked up as part of any immigration enforcement operations and detained. I think it's 125 of 185,000 people picked up since then have had any criminal record beyond without. Sorry, the 125,000 of the 185,000. They don't have criminal records. They have civil immigration violations. And that's what they're picking up. They're picking up people with family members, many of them mixed status families, US Citizen children like the three Marines in the Bronco family. Mass deportation is family separation. We knew it would be. President Trump said today we're going after the criminal aliens of which we have plenty to work with. But the data doesn't appear to bear that out.

[News Anchor]

You know, Andrea, the family separation policy that Jacob covered and wrote about and that we've all I think witnessed was so awful that it turned out to be too awful in the end or too politically unsustainable in the end for Donald Trump who reversed it. It's now happening. Are we different or is Trump different?

[Andrea Flores]

I think there are things happening in this administration that feel more extreme than the first administration to me. Whether that is the fact that they are trying to disappear and they have disappeared over 200 individuals and that they're incarcerating them in a foreign prison, that's extreme. The fact that they asked the Supreme Court and won the ability to send nationals of any country to a third country, so say a Mexican national could be sent anywhere in the world without due process or adequate notice. They're building up an infrastructure, really. It's not just a diplomatic port, but to disappear people at a mass scale without due process. So it's actually far more dangerous than what was a family separation was so insidious and so damaging. But now they're building something much bigger. And so it's, you know, President Trump has brought together staff that has been thinking about and designing how do they really finally carry out mass deportations. And so I think it's the immigration system is so broken, but they have found every single way to maximize the harm this time. And they are so bearing no immigrant, regardless of legal status.

[News Anchor]

Jacob Soveroff and Andrea Flores, thank you for bearing witness with us. We appreciate you guys. Another break for us. We'll be right back. If you haven't seen it yet, you can catch my conversation with the Midas Touch masterminds Ben Brett and Jordi Meisellis. They are my guests on this week's episode of the Best People Podcast.

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[News Anchor]

Just scan that QR code on your screen right now to watch our conversation on YouTube. Or of course, you can listen to this week's episode wherever you get your podcasts. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.