← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Trump does what he wants, whenever he wants"
00:42:48
Trump’s repeated rallying against other members of NATO set the tone for a tense summit, where world leaders will have a balancing act to play -- either pander to him or potentially reevaluate their relationship with the US.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
Join me Cyndi Lauper with chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.
- [00:15]
Cyndi Lauper
Cosentic secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis 300mg dose and adults with active psoriatic arthritis 150mg dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections, some are fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen, serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentyx or cosentyx.com Cindy
- [01:00]
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Nicole Wallace
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Nicole Wallace
It's like I can't stop.
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- [01:33]
Donald Trump
We weren't treated well because we did something in Iran. We don't need anybody's help. I didn't even want their help. But before I asked, they said they wouldn't be there. And we've invested trillions of dollars in NATO. In a way, I was testing people. I was testing to see whether or not they'd be there. Because I've long said that we help them, but I'm not sure that they'd be there for us.
- [01:59]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again, Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the East. Donald Trump does what he wants, when he wants, wherever he wants to do it. And that is no truer than on the world stage, where Donald Trump has for years slammed about too many obvious reasons for doing so. The very military alliance that keeps us the safest that we turn to as Americans. In the wake of the attacks of September 11, Donald Trump has repeatedly railed against our NATO allies, saying that its European members are not doing enough for us. And now in Ankara, Turkey, for the NATO summit, Trump isn't holding back with his latest complaint about NATO. As you just heard, Trump feels that NATO countries, our allies, should have helped more when it came to the war with Iran. Mind you, Donald Trump did not consult any of our European allies before he launched the war with Iran. He only looped them in after the war was underway. Donald Trump's frustration set the tone for a tense summit where world leaders will have a balancing act to play. Either pander to Donald Trump when they see him or potentially reevaluate their country's relationship with the United States. All of this happening while the international community is still digesting slash processing Donald Trump's latest foray on the world stage, inserting himself into the World cup because whether it is a global military alliance or a soccer game, Donald Trump, as we said, does what he wants, when he wants, wherever he wants to do it. Trump called FIFA's president. He asked for the suspension of USA player floating Balogun to be reviewed. FIFA ended up overturning the suspension. It was an unprecedented move, something that hasn't happened in decades. It motivated USA's opponents, based on all the reporting from yesterday and last night's game against Belgium, even more. Nicholas Raskin, a Belgian midfielder, said this quote, there was a sense of injustice within the squad and we were determined to respond on the field. Belgium ended up beating the US 4 to 1 in their victory. Belgium mocked the man who intervened after their team scored its fourth goal. A handful of Belgian players did the Trump dance, the one where he pumps his fists in the air. It's a move he does frequently when dancing to the song ymca. After the game ended, the official Belgian team account on X posted a simple taunt quote, overturn this. End quote. A trolling of Donald Trump on the world stage as he strains relationships with our allies and is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Staff writer for the Atlantic and political analyst Ashley Parker is here. Also joining us, political analyst and host of the Bulwark podcast, Tim Miller is here and former under Secretary of State for public diplomacy and public affairs during the Obama administration. Political analyst Rick Stengel is back with us. Rick, let me start with where we started with NATO. I feel like this has been going on since 2017 where Donald Trump desperately wants to blow up Naito and advisers like HR McMaster and Dina Powell and others kept him in Naito. What's keeping him and us in Naito now, do you think?
- [05:20]
Rick Stengel
I think he's sort of a lame duck now in the sense that back in the day, in the first term his criticism of Naito was that NATO, remember, wasn't paying its dues, as though they were a tenant for the U.S. now, his critique is that they didn't help in the Iran war. Now, you know, I have news for the president. NATO is a defensive alliance and you attacked Iran. You can't enlist the aid of a defensive alliance for something that's offensive. And the irony here, too, Nicole, which no one seems to note, is that he's embracing Mr. Erdogan, the head of Turkey, and it was Turkey, which shares a border with Iran, that said to the U.S. do not invade Iran. We're not going to support you. We think it's a terrible mistake. So part of it is just this animus that he has against the Europeans and why that is, you know, that's. Future historians will have to figure that out.
- [06:17]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Ashley, you've been watching him for so many years and writing your incredibly deeply sourced stories about all the people around him thinking he's, you know, bat bleep crazy. And he just sort of does what he does. Let me show you what it might be about. It might be about what he's telling us. It's about. This is Donald Trump on Greenland.
- [06:40]
Donald Trump
Well, that's my relationship with NATO, because Greenland doesn't help Denmark. Denmark doesn't spend money to really help Greenland, but it's an important part for the United States. And it's surrounded by China ships and Russian ships, and that's not going to happen. We could remove all of our soldiers out of Europe because as you probably noticed, Europe's a very different place than it was 20 years ago. A lot different. Much different. They're much different. And they better be careful with immigration and energy. If they're not careful with those two things, you're not going to have a Europe anymore.
- [07:22]
Nicole Wallace
It's a typical Trumpian soundbite with a little bit of stealing another country's territory mixed in with a little bit of, I think that's some racism there in the middle over immigration and a little bit of Trump specific thuggery. I don't know what he's threatening to do there, but maybe it is about this feeling that he can't just take what he wants because these are sovereign nations that won't give him Greenland. I mean, is that really what's eating him up?
- [07:52]
Tim Miller
Well, his antipathy towards NATO, as you point out, goes back to his first term. I can remember going on foreign trips with him to Brussels for NATO meetings and other places. And the suspense truly was, is he going to stand outside NATO headquarters and sort of set the charter on fire. Right. Is he going to reaffirm or disavow Article 5? But at its core, and I think Greenland fits into this, this is someone who, in every area of his life, including the presidency, including the NATO alliance, is purely transactional. Right? So some of his earliest objections was that the United States was getting a bad deal when it came to NATO because allies weren't paying their fair share. And now he said, I also am old enough to remember his first term when the Wall Street Journal broke the idea that Trump might want Greenland. And it felt kind of like a lark, one of these crazy stories that wasn't really actionable. And so it's been fascinating to see, now that he's come back, that this is a real wish. And he's been told, look, Greenland will let you use it for whatever military wants you have. They'll share their minerals and their resources. And he sort of said, psychologically, it feels better to me if I own it.
- [09:12]
Donald Trump
Right.
- [09:13]
Tim Miller
He's a builder and a developer, but again, he's also the President of the United States. And therein lies the problem. Greenland, in this transaction of wanting it, of wanting ownership, is certainly a part of his frustration, but I wouldn't say it's the only part.
- [09:32]
Nicole Wallace
The builder piece is so blown up in his mind. I mean, he could not reline the Reflecting Pool. Tim Miller. So let's just dispense with the. He wants all of it because he has to own it, to turn it into what he wants it to be. He can't fix things like that. You could throw a stone to from his bedroom. The idea that we are considering blowing up our relationship with allies that have kept not just us safe, but have kept peace since World War II is one of these insane things that makes me feel like we're watching the Republican zombies, right? Sort of just watching him march the country off the cliff. And other than, I think one senator, one of the people that got primaried or someone retiring, got mad when he took troops out of Europe. But that's like a standing threat that he makes, and it barely gets any coverage. But I think he threatened to do that again today.
- [10:24]
Ashley Parker
Yeah, he did threaten to do it again today, particularly on the grounds of Greenland. And his arguments around Greenland start to not make sense. I think you did everybody a favor by cutting up that very long ramble that he was doing today. But there was some nonsensical stuff in the middle there as he was trying to explain why we need Greenland because of The Chinese ships, et cetera. When Greenland has said we can do militarily what we want, what we need to do as far as putting military resources there. To your point about him not being able to actually build things, there is something that he was pretty good at, we should just say, which is just putting his name on other people's stuff. And to me, I think that is the summary of what is happening in Greenland. Donald Trump wants to put his name on new things. He's got this new airport in Palm beach he's happy about. He wants to put his name on a new country. He wants that to be in the history books. That's it. Doing things is hard. Putting your name on other people's things is easy. He's made a career for it out of it. Kudos to him. And I think that's part of what's happening. And then the other thing, I guess I would just throw out here why to your question to Rick about why he hasn't got out of NATO. I think a lot of it is the fact that Mark Ruda, the head of NATO, has been sucking up to him. I mean, Trump is a child and like that's where we're at. Why was he in Ankara? Ankara today? Did he say? Well, because Erdogan's been so nice to him and there have been some reporting, you know, that we haven't really found out the truth actually from the first term about some suspicious financial transfers from Turkey to Trump and maybe that will come out. But also we know that Erdogan sucks up to him. Mark Rude has been the head of NATO really sucks up to him and, and called him daddy. And I think that it's like that kind of like he's a child, that kind of base suck upper y is why we're in NATO. And the fact that a lot of the other European countries won't do that to him is why he's mad at them. I mean, I think it's as simple as that.
- [12:15]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Tim, speaking of being mad, I mean, do we think he's seen people laughing at him? I mean, if he's going to be mad at anyone, he's going to be mad at the mockery. I think I have some more of the sort of celebrations in the locker room and, you know, sports, we've had a lot of sports content to chew on just as fans of the Knicks. But I can't imagine there's anything more psychologically motivating than to try to defeat a team where the American president has involved himself in a way that I don't think FIFA has overturned a call like that since the 1950s. Here's the team that won. What do you think about the Trump curse?
- [12:59]
Maya Wiley
Yeah.
- [13:00]
Ashley Parker
Small country Belgium there kind of dunking on Trump. This is fun. It's funny when you take back the clock on this. As Trump kind of came into our lives in 2015, a big complaint on the right was this idea that sports leagues had gone too liberal or whatever had gone too woke, and people should. Politics should stay out of it. This was the big critique over on Fox for a long time. And you probably remember Laura Ingram talking about how LeBron James should shut up and dribble. And I don't know, in some ways, I feel like that Belgium dance is the Belgians telling Trump to shut up in President. Shut up and do your job. He keeps getting involved in this stuff. He got himself involved in the only game the Knicks lost was the one he showed up to. Belgium just absolutely shames us. Last night in soccer, after Trump gets involved in it, he wants to be involved in everything, to try to get himself involved in our lives and in every corner of society. And a lot of what he's touching is doing the opposite. The opposite of the Midas touch, I guess.
- [14:09]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And I mean, it's a huge stage. It's a hugely sort of visceral piece of people's identity, and Donald Trump didn't enhance it at all. And I guess that's the point that Belgium's making their Rick Stengel.
- [14:28]
Rick Stengel
Yeah. So it's, it's, it's a gigantic own goal for what is the greatest soft power opportunity that any country has over a period of four years to not only host the World cup, but to be in the quarterfinals. And he's just blew it. He just jumped on it. And what he did, instead of this welcoming country that is a kind of emerging soccer superpower, he's gone back to the image of America as the ugly American. I mean, it's. Everything he's done has been an example of that old cliche of the bumbling, narcissistic, obtuse American who can make the rules, do whatever he wants to do. The difference, by the way, is at least the ugly American in the 1950s and 60s talked about democracy, and he doesn't. And it's just a shame because there've been the statistics about the downturn in tourism during his second term. I mean, tourism is, is one of the foundations of the US economy. It brings in $1 trillion a year. And then the. And the Year of the World cup should be the year where the US Economy is shining because of all of these foreign visitors. And instead he's rebuffing them. It's a tremendous missed opportunity where he's really kibosh. Something that could have really helped the US in the long term.
- [15:49]
Nicole Wallace
You know, Ashley, I wonder though, watching this and watching sort of the mockery of Donald Trump personally, this wasn't just on egg on. This was egg on Donald Trump's face when you look at him and sort of the body of reporting that you've done term one compared to term two and the reporting that Maggie and Jonathan Swan do in their new book, it's not clear that he knows that people are laughing at him this time, is it?
- [16:16]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that's a very good point. And some of my reporting, one thing, a point someone made to me, is that the information flow from the first term to this term has changed both. I mean, Nicole, I can remember coming on your show in the first term and talking about these people who, quote unquote, claimed to be guardrails. And there was some well deserved mockery of them and rightfully, but those guard, but they were guardrails and they are gone. And he has a young aide who follows him around with a printer on a golf cart and everywhere else and prints out adoring, fawning coverage. And someone also said to me, look, in his first term he was on Twitter and that was a two way street. He was blasting things out to which we all responded to, but he was also consuming from a kind of normal algorithm at that point. Now, the Twitter algorithm under Elon Musk, a Trump acolyte, has changed in terms of what's in a feed. And Trump's not really on Twitter. He's using his own platform not to get incoming, but really just to send out press releases. So he is a lot less aware of these things as he was previously. And the last thing I'll add, just jumping off of Tim's point made me think, you know, in his first term, Tim was talking about getting politics out of sports. But another one of Trump's promises was we're not respected on the world stage and I will make us respect it again. People will stop laughing at us. And obviously we saw, you know, the realm is perhaps a bit more trivial. It's sports. But as Rick pointed out, sports is soft power. It's that sort of easy diplomatic win. And you had the teams on social media and in their dances mocking him, whether or not he was aware of it.
- [18:06]
Nicole Wallace
Tim, this this has been on my brain since, I think, before the State of the Union, where it's clear to me that the quality of him, it came from some of the folks who went and saw him that day. And he wanted to show everyone the renovations of his bathroom. Like the obsession, like true obsession. I mean, I'm not really good at these things, but even when I have been involved in minor home renovations, they have not been something that I've talked to friends about. He is the President of the United States of America and cannot stop talking about paint colors for plastic linings, repairs to his bathroom. Wants to show journalists the bathroom he renovated. There were pictures out there. I mean, this was the day of his State of the Union address. I mean, what do you make of the absence of any attachment to crisis, not just for the country, not just for the world, not just for NATO, but to his own political coalition?
- [19:02]
Ashley Parker
Yeah, and I think there are a couple things at play here. Some of this is what Ashley just laid out. He's like not getting a lot of the same information. He has this human printer who, according to the Haberman and Swan book, is also leaving him some mash notes around the White House. So there's that kind of weirdness going on, I think we discussed on last week's show. I fundamentally think he doesn't care that much about the mid terms. I think if you just gave him truth serum and it's like, what do you care about more? That the ballroom turns out great and that people talk about how great the ballroom is or that the Republicans hold the house? I think he would say the ballroom in a second. So I think that is part of it. And again, I just don't. He's always been kind of a power of positive thinking guy, but when you're not getting bad information, I think this is what happens. You start to delude yourself. I mean, every president gets in a bubble. Rick had talked about this historically, but I think he's in about the thickest bubble we've seen in a while. And one anecdote that sticks with me is I had somebody tell me that they brought, you know, they were working for a principal, they brought them to meet the president for, you know, for business. And he like went around and introduced this person to like, Marco Rubio and was like, hey, Marco, how are things going in the world? Great, right? Marco said, great. And then he goes to Scott Bessant and says, hey, Scott, how are things going in the economy? Great. Right? And Scott's like, great. And you think this was a real thing that happened. Like, the president is just taking strangers around the White House getting praise, asking people to praise him. And so I do think he is in just sort of this bubble, this kind of narcissism bubble that is preventing him from reckoning with some of these crises.
- [20:42]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, I think, we think because they're so unbelievable, that these Cabinet meetings that he sleeps through are the performance and that what happens behind closed doors is Rubio's like, hey, we need to get in there. You know, the Iran peace deal is falling apart. Or Besant is like, hey, we need to do something. The tariffs are really jacking up the prices of a cart full of stuff from Walmart. No, like, the Cabinet meeting is real life. And the fact that we get to see it is just a window into it. All right? No one's going anywhere. There's more. There's this bizarre codependent relationship with another American ally. I'll show you what he had to say as well as the consequences of the United States of America being increasingly isolated from our allies. And again, I'll show you the fight he's escalating with. One world leader who used to be a very good friend of his also had. Donald Trump's assault on American history took another dark turn as the Trump White House drags the ice iconic Smithsonian Institution into Donald Trump's misguided culture wars. What Trump's latest attack signals to historians and how the Smithsonian is responding today. Also ahead, as Trump attempts to rewrite history. A cultural icon. Cultural icons from Bruce Springsteen to Larry David are fighting back against his brand of autocracy using what Rick Sangle described as their soft power. We'll show you what that looks like. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Join me, Cyndi Lauper with chef Michelle Bernstein and Dr. Panico to talk about psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, the potential connection and risk of developing permanent joint damage.
- [22:31]
Cyndi Lauper
Cosentic Secukinumab is prescribed for adults with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. 300 milligram dose. And adults with active psoriatic arthritis, 150 milligrams dose. Don't use if you're allergic to Cosentyx. Before starting, get checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur like tuberculosis or other serious bacterial, fungal or viral infections. Some were fatal. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms like fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or cough, had a vaccine or planned to, or if inflammatory bowel disease symptoms develop or worsen serious allergic reactions and severe eczema like skin reactions may occur. Learn more at 1-844-cosentix or cosentyx.com sendi
- [23:17]
Tim Miller
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Nicole Wallace
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- [23:50]
Nicole Wallace
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- [24:18]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Ashley, Tim and Rick. So Rick, Donald Trump's I don't even want to call it a feud or a fight. It seems very one sided. But Donald Trump's attacks and smears on Prime Minister Meloni are ongoing. He took to his social media platform and posted restraining order needed about her. He's so sort of over the edge of anything rational that Italy has stopped responding to the President of the United States. I'll read you Reuters reporting on that. Quote, the Italian government chose not to respond to the latest attack on Truth Social from Donald Trump with ministers pledging to avoid fueling tensions that could harm bilateral ties. Quote, Trump speaks for himself. We have a US President who loves to provoke, especially on social media. We have decided to stop responding to these remarks. That was Italy's Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani to the newspaper La Stampa on Tuesday. So this is where we are. The President of the United States States, who is trailed by a human printer who prints out things about Donald Trump said on social media, not even necessarily in articles, is now trolling the leader of an American ally to a degree that is so beyond the pale that the country has stopped responding officially, according to Reuters.
- [25:46]
Rick Stengel
Yes, Italy is behaving like a grown up Nicole. I mean, you know, the fact that she's a woman and an attractive woman obviously has something to do with this. I mean, Trump historically, even before he was president, hit this sort of disdain and misogyny, not believing in the value of women leaders. The fact that he's taking her to task specifically was something that he's blamed the other European leaders for not allowing US overflights for the invasion of Iran, something that Italy wasn't the only country to not allow. And by the way, Ms. Maloney, I believe, was the only European leader to come to his 2025 inauguration. She is by far the most conservative and right wing leader and represents this kind of turning away from progressiveness that we've seen in Europe over the last couple of decades. I mean, in so many ways, she's the most natural ally that he has. Not as authoritarian as Mr. Erdogan, but someone whose politics should be sympathetic to his and his treatment of her. Again, another soft power own goal.
- [27:00]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I mean, Tim, he basically describes his abusive conduct toward her in this soundbite. Let me play this for you.
- [27:12]
Donald Trump
I think she's a nice person, actually. We've had a good, we had a bad relationship, but it became a little bad because she refused to help us. Again, I didn't put a heavy press on her, but she refused to get involved with the hormones training or you could also say just go around. She refused to get involved. So it soured my relationship with her a little bit. But I like her.
- [27:40]
Nicole Wallace
I like her. I just trolling her on social media. And we know that his words, you know, have a lot of pickup and a lot of people watch them. He called for again a quote, restraining order being needed about her and then says, I mean, this is hard to even read back to you, but I will she refused to get involved with the Hormuz straight. Or you could just say Iran. She refused to get involved. So it soured my relationship with her. But I like her. Just this toxic mix of mayhem and bad behavior.
- [28:16]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
Yeah.
- [28:16]
Ashley Parker
Look, I think there are a couple things at play here. First, just on the Strait of Hormuz and on the Iran situation, this was another case of just Trump's brazen as a megalomania. He didn't consult the allies. We've been through this a bunch and there's a playbook for how you do this. And presidents in the past have gotten countries on board even for international missions or wars that they weren't fully on board with because they did the diplomacy on the front end. And Trump doesn't do that. And so he starts this war. He can't explain it. It has no real purpose. There's no plan. We're still not really out of it. We're worse off than we were when it started. And he's like, now I'm mad that Italy won't go along with it. Well, it's like, well, that's your fault. And so then his treatment of Meloni after that is, I think, a combination of one. He doesn't really like it when women stand up to him and say no to him. That's true in his personal life. It's also true in his professional life. And so what does he do? He trolls them on social media. He's also kind of personally a coward, so he's not as willing to do that at a press conference or in person with her, which is why he kind of does, though. I like her still at the end. And then he gets. Becomes a keyboard warrior and gets on Truth Social and talks about how she's really obsessed with him. Again, it's childish, it's a hint of misogyny, and it's just. And it's unserious. And, you know, I think that there was this big. One of the other big ideas of the Trump term was that we had all these pencil heads, you know, that were doing diplomacy in the past, and they all did stupid deals and they all did dumb deals. And what we should really do is just kind of deal like we're a car salesman on the lot and just shoot by the hip and have no, you know, and like. And that's not working. You can see why.
- [30:02]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, yeah, well, we can see why. It's not clear that they can see why. And it is like one of the seven wonders that Marco Rubio, who's in charge of all of this, is the favorite for the 2028 nomination. Next time, you have to explain that to me. Ashley Parker, Rick Stengel, thank you for starting us off on all of this. Tim sticks around. When we come back, Donald Trump's attempts to whitewash our history is running into roadblocks again. This time, his attack on one of the most prominent and respected historical museums in our country, the Smithsonian Institution, is facing some fierce blowback. We'll bring you that reporting next.
- [30:46]
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Ashley Parker
ones kinda like him. Are you shaking a maraca?
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Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
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- [30:56]
Ashley Parker
Nice disclaimer.
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- [31:13]
Ashley Parker
There's a pill version of ozempic.
- [31:16]
Donald Trump
Mississippi now presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace.
- [31:23]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
This week, Senator and Pastor Raphael Warnock. Our country goes through these moments, these fits and starts, and I take my cue from the likes of John Lewis. When you don't know what else to do, keep walking. Keep walking across that bridge.
- [31:36]
Donald Trump
The Best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to Ms. Now premium on Apple Podcasts.
- [31:48]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
I think the Smithsonian in some ways is the glue that helps hold the nation together.
- [31:52]
Donald Trump
Right? You look at who visits the Smithsonian.
- [31:55]
Rick Stengel
Everybody.
- [31:56]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
Red states, blue states. Whatever your politics, you come to the Smithsonian.
- [32:00]
Maya Wiley
Why?
- [32:00]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
Because you want to understand who you are, right? It's about celebrating, but also understanding.
- [32:10]
Nicole Wallace
That is the secretary of the Smithsonian Institution on its mission, the mission of the 21 Smithsonian museums to offer an unbiased, nonpartisan, honest account of our history and a celebration of who we are. Naturally, that represents a threat to an aspiring dictator. In a bizarre and dangerous new report, Donald Trump's White House is branding the leaders of the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History as radical, extreme political activists. This is just the latest step from Donald Trump's campaign to control the museum's leadership and attempt to Whitewash and Rewrite America's Story. The report, released on Saturday, the country's 250th anniversary birthday, attempts to accuse the museum of presenting the American story not as one of the victory of freedom and genius of our country, but one of regret, tragedy and shame. They allege that the museum's director avoids a, quote, unified national narrative, or as American historians call it today, quote, another example of executive branch overreach seeking to coerce Smithsonian leadership to shape its presentation of US History so that it serves the administration's political agenda. I want to bring into our coverage civil rights attorney, president of a leadership conference on civil and human rights, Maya Wiley. Also joining us, executive editor@deadline.com, dominic Patton. And Tim is still with us as well. Maya, this is so shocking and galling, but I wonder what your thoughts are. And let me just add another layer to this. You know, the last cultural institution he thought to take over, he just had his name unceremoniously scraped off of. And that would be the Kennedy Center. One, what do you think of the attempt? And two, how would you prepare for it?
- [34:06]
Maya Wiley
Well, first of all, let me Just say the attempt was unsurprising, even as it was outrageous. Unsurprising because this is a president and administration since the beginning of its term, that even spent its first day in office seeking to end what it called diversity, equity and inclusion, I would argue, and accessibility, but literally the celebration of the diversity of this country. It went after and targeted schools with its dear colleague letter from the Department of Education that was trying to control teachers and students and curriculum. It did everything in its power, even to threaten research institutions of higher education because it didn't like what it was researching if it felt it was diverse and equitable and inclusive. Which really comes down to trying to whitewash American history and to whitewash it in order to, as the letter from historians said, you know, as a way of really advancing its own, I would argue, anti democratic power and to abuse it. Because we are a country that is founded on the premise that we have a freedom to learn, that in fact, we fought a whole civil war in order to have the freedom to learn. I think we need to remember that, and that literally, we have been spending all these past centuries as a country working towards ideals that we share, but have not always been real. And so the only way this administration seems to seek to hold on to power is by trying to divide us and to deny the very history that we have, the progress we've made and the work we still need to do so that it can hold onto its own power. And that's despicable.
- [35:49]
Nicole Wallace
The offense to our most revered cultural institutions seems to have awoken the public in a way that some of the other things that we cover here every day, that we track here every day, haven't. I want to show you a couple of things. This is Bruce Springsteen on Friday on the PBS NewsHour about the very definition of patriotism, in his view.
- [36:17]
Donald Trump
Well, I believe in critical patriotism. I believe, because that's the definition of a patriot. You know, that you love your country so much that you are willing to look at it clearly, recognize its faults, encourage it to be a better place, and believe that you carry in your heart the country that is waiting.
- [36:47]
Nicole Wallace
Dominic, you know, my fascination and the close attention I've paid to Bruce Springsteen over the last 18 months, I think that this is. These are the battle lines, right? You're either going to erase the facts of our actual history or you believe that patriotism is loving something so much that you love it, flaws and all. And I sort of looked at everything that was said this weekend, and I feel like that boils down this conflict, this tug of war, as well as anything else out there.
- [37:21]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
I think in many ways you're right, Nicole. I mean, I think there's a supreme irony here. Look, we haven't quite got to the stage of the Trump MAGA administration putting together a museum of degenerate art, but they're getting close, clearly, and it'll be very popular. I know. But more importantly, I think here, more importantly is on July 4th in the mall, when the weather got so terrible, where did all those people go? Into the lobby of the African American History Museum. It was a maybe somewhere they didn't intend to go. But as a metaphor, it was a protective place in American history. American history is complex. It changes all the time, our notion of what it was and what it wasn't. Look at the Japanese interment horrors and look at the way we look at that now. There's a beautiful museum here in Los Angeles that delves just into that particular horrible part of our history, and it delves into it to tell us the truth of who we are and who we can be. The search of the more perfect union. I know how much you love the boss, and I'm not that far behind you, but I think part of what that notion is that some would have once said that patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel. Critical patriotism is exactly what our flawed founding Fathers, and they were all flawed, like all of us, are exactly what they intended coming out of the Age of Enlightenment. The history of the writing of the Declaration of Independence alone is a study of the conflicts of early America that resonate through the time that we live in now. And yet now, I think you're right. I think there are battle lines. History is complex. History is full of flawed characters. History is full of evolution of what the nation is and the Trump people. And the term whitewash has been used a lot. Let's be clear. White nationalists watch this. But to that extent, I would say one thing, and this might be very controversial, but one of the greatest things about America was that image we saw of those masked cowards walking around D.C. during the holidays. Because in America, we can let them do that. We might think they're fools, they're wrong, they're racist and all that, but they have a right to do that. That is the history that actually these guys in the White House want to erase.
- [39:30]
Nicole Wallace
It's a complicated point. I'm going to let everyone jump in on it. Larry David has also entered this chat. I'm going to show you what that looked like first I have have some breaking news to tell you about out of Iran. The United States has just launched, quote, a series of powerful strikes according to US Central Command saying that the strikes were, quote, in response to Iranian attacks on three commercial vessels that were transiting the Strait of Hormuz. CENTCOM adding this quote, Iran's demonstrated aggression was unwarranted, dangerous and a clear violation of the ceasefire. The attacks again spark fears of an all out war breaking out in the region again and fears that the Strait of Hormuz will close once again. We will be right back.
- [40:19]
Ashley Parker
Anyone who would accept the results of a free and fair election is a sociopath, a madman. A man like that could even foment an insurrection rather than just admit that he lost.
- [40:31]
Rick Stengel
What a.
- [40:34]
Donald Trump
He could use the presidency to enrich
- [40:36]
Ashley Parker
himself and his family.
- [40:38]
Donald Trump
No, no.
- [40:39]
Ashley Parker
He could send troops into American cities to terrorize and even kill American citizens, all to distract from the fact that he's friends with a pedophile. He could attack universities, even the free press, silencing anyone who dares to criticize him.
- [40:59]
Rick Stengel
Ah, come on, that could never happen.
- [41:02]
Ashley Parker
That's what you think.
- [41:03]
Donald Trump
Are you suggesting that the President would taketh the time to challenge anyone who dare make fun of him as if he were a big baby?
- [41:12]
Nicole Wallace
A big baby?
- [41:14]
Ashley Parker
I don't see it.
- [41:18]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Maya, Dominic and Tim. So, Tim, you know, because you've been on the, all of you have been on this journey with, with me, this is sort of the response that I've been waiting for for 18 months. And they were all there. I mean, Rob Reiner and Jimmy Kimmel and Larry David. What'd you think?
- [41:37]
Ashley Parker
Typically subtle from Larry David there, trying to figure out who he's talking about. But no, it's good. You have to laugh at him. Pointing and laughing is important and I think that it is a much more effective way of getting at Trump than, you know, kind of getting on the high horse. So sometimes it calls for getting on the high horse. So I hadn't watched that little HBO show. I'd seen it on my scroll and so now I'm more intrigued to go click on it. So that was a good promo.
- [42:04]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, it's funny.
- [42:05]
Ashley Parker
If you don't mind, I just want to say one thing about Lonnie Bunch. Yeah, I want to say one other thing about Lonnie Bunch, who mentioned the last segment, who was the secretary of the Smithsonian. I had Clint Smith, who's at the Atlantic and wrote this amazing book about American history through the eyes of what happened to Slavery called How the Word Has Passed. I added him on for the Fourth of July podcast over the weekend, and he had interviewed Lonnie Bunch, and it's like, this is such an amazing person. And the just amount. He was the first person to run the African American Museum, and then just the amount of commitment to trying to protect our history in the face of Trump. And this is somebody that could have retired but decided he wanted to stay. And Clint's interview with him is just wild. It's like, how is this real life? He had this lunch with Trump where. Where Trump's talking to him about whether to move Dulles and to name Dulles after himself, and took him to the museum and showed him an exhibit about Dutch slavery. And Trump's response to that is, the Dutch loved me. The whole thing is preposterous. But it's important that we have people like that who are suffering Trump's incompetence and have the dignity to do it and who care about all that, who are out there doing it. And so I think that what Larry David's doing is probably reaching more people. But what Lonnie is doing is really important.
- [43:26]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Maya, what's amazing and what we can't lose sight of is that it shouldn't be hard to protect the truth of America's history. This should have been an anniversary, right, where we've come far enough that we could agree on our history, and we are instead trying to dismantle it. And if you take Dominic's point about the images that went around the world in about 15 seconds of the members of, I think, the Patriot Front group on the D.C. metro, who in this country today have the freedom to go and espouse their message juxtaposed with Donald Trump's attempt to erase the history of how we have those very freedoms. Yeah.
- [44:14]
Maya Wiley
I so take Dominic's point about one of the things that matters about the United States and our history is freedom, and that includes the freedom to be hateful, sadly. But I think what we're seeing is something very different from that. We're not just seeing the protection of free speech because it's free speech. We're seeing the effort to rewrite history, to say these people are okay, that this is okay. And one of the things we want and one of the things that Lonnie Bunch has spent so much of his stellar career doing is reminding us exactly why it is and exactly how dangerous it is, because those same masked men were on the D.C. metro with a Filipino man and a black woman. And I have to tell you, we're in a country where literal hate crimes are at historic highs because this is an administration that has given it permission and actually said that its speech is more important than the rest of ours and is using the Department of Justice to criminalize groups for using the same free speech to call that hate out, like the Southern Poverty Law Center. So what we're really saying is we don't want to just erase history. We want to flip the script and say that our foot soldiers are actually the ones that are enabled to run this country and to control it. And the rest of us should not only get in line, but it's okay if our safety is what is sacrificed for it. That is significantly more dangerous than I think just celebrating or arguing over what our history is is.
- [45:48]
Nicole Wallace
Maya Wiley, Dominic Patton, thank you for joining us for this conversation. Tim Miller, thank you for spending the hour with us.
- [45:55]
Maya Wiley
One more break.
- [45:56]
Nicole Wallace
We'll be right back.
- [46:01]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
The power is in the people. Yeah, it's not the people in power. The power is in the people. And I think whether you look at the citizens who stood up bravely night after night in the blistering cold in Minneapolis or the folks who stood up in my own state of Georgia two weeks ago when they were getting ready to gerrymander those maps, it makes a difference when you, when you push back and stand up. So, so don't give in to those who are trying to weaponize despair. For those of us who are people of faith, I call upon us to renew our faith. But if you're not given to that kind of language, I'm also calling on us to renew our faith in one another as an American. People, people.
- [46:46]
Nicole Wallace
That was just part of my conversation with Senator Raphael Warnock for this week's episode of the Best People podcast. It's important and deeply connected to the conversation we were just having. Scan the QR code on your screen to watch the rest of it on YouTube or download the Best People. Wherever you get your podcasts, let me know what you think on Blue sky or Instagram. We're going to sneak in one more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.
- [47:16]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
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- [47:18]
Ashley Parker
Kind of like him. Are you shaking a maraca?
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Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
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- [47:25]
Ashley Parker
Nice disclaimer.
- [47:26]
Shopify Advertiser / Ozempic Advertiser
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- [47:43]
Ashley Parker
There's a pill version of Ozem Bank.