← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Trump doubles down on threats to Iran”
00:43:14
Nicolle Wallace covers the latest headlines from the war in Iran. In a press conference today, Donald Trump addressed the rescue of an American pilot who went missing last week when Iran shot down a U.S. F-15 fighter jet. Trump also double downed on his threats to Iran that he posted on Truth Social, and he attacked reporters and news outlets for asking him about those threats, specifically whether he was worried about committing war crimes.
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- [00:52]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Hi there everyone. It's four o' clock in New York. It is day 38 of the war with Iran. Here's where things stand. Donald Trump chose Easter Sunday to reveal the fullest portrait to date of his instability and lack of self regulation and self control. Trump forcing Republicans to either give voice to the reality that most Americans, including Marjorie Taylor Greene and Alex Jones among them, can see with their own eyes, or, politically speaking, go down with a ship. Exceedingly large majorities of Americans disapprove of Donald Trump's war with Iran and and reject his shifting reasons for waging it. The war has caused an historic disruption to energy markets, and gas prices here continue to soar against that backdrop, or maybe because of it. Donald Trump threatened Iran with what would amount to war crimes over the weekend in a profanity laden post Easter morning because he's the only president we have. We're going to read it to you. Quote, Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day all wrapped into one in Iran. There will be nothing like it. Three exclamation points. Open the fucking straight, you crazy bastards, or you'll be living in hell. Just watch. Praise be to Allah. It was a post that was so crazy it was sent by the President of the United States. It was sent on Easter morning, so a lot of people had to check to see if it was real, yours truly included. But Trump made sure we knew that it was real and that he wrote it by doubling down on the things he said in that post. In a series of interviews, including this one with ABC News on Sunday, he said, quote, if no peace deal is reached with Iran in the next 48 hours, quote, we're blowing up the entire country, end quote. And then today he said these things.
- [02:40]
Donald Trump
The entire country can be taken out in one night. And that Night might be tomorrow night. We're giving them till tomorrow and 8 o' clock eastern time. And after that, they're going to have no bridges, they're going to have no power plants. Stone Ages.
- [02:58]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Stone Ages, stuff like that was really the tip of the iceberg in terms of the things that the President of the United States said today. Trump threatened to jail the journalist who revealed that a service member, an American service member, was missing after a fighter jet was shot down in Iran. When Trump was asked by a New York Times reporter whether Trump was concerned about committing war crimes, he said no. And then he attacked the New York Times for saying that Trump was going to lose an election. It is safe to describe it as erratic and unhinged, and we'll get to all of it over the course of the next two hours. But as for those strikes Trump keeps tweeting about and talking about against Iran and what Trump may soon order the men and women of the United States military to do. According to Trump, as early as tomorrow night. Former military lawyers warn that what Donald Trump is publicly calling for, if it is followed through, would, quote, amount to the most serious war crimes. And thus the President's statements place service members in a profoundly challenging situation. Iranian power plants and other critical civilian infrastructure are protected from attacks by the law of war of the United States that we helped craft after World War II. Despite those well settled legal parameters, Trump has repeatedly threatened to obliterate such infrastructure without regard to the law's high demands. His comments are blatant expressions that he is willing to turn the US Into a rogue state like Iran and Russia, one that rejects the fundamental legal restraints that protect innocent non combatants like children and the Iranian civilian population itself. There is also the problem of how Trump's threats could further prolong and extend this now very unpopular war with Iran. Not to mention the damage Donald Trump is doing to our reputation on the world stage. New York Times reports this quote, the Trump administration's language and actions could have far reaching consequences within Iran. It's likely to galvanize opposition to the US including among some ordinary Iranians who have protested their own government. On the global stage, it could further diminish America's standing and weaken norms of state conduct in wartime that are intended to protect civilians. An unhinged Donald Trump threatening potential war crimes as he fails to find a clear way out of the war with Iran is where we start today. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is here. He served as the commanding general of the US army in Europe. Ann Applebaum joins us as well. She's a columnist for the Atlantic. She's the host of the podcast Autocracy in America. General Hertling, I asked you on Wednesday, before I was down sick for a couple days, if Trump was sane. I want to re up the question. Do you view him or do you think men and women of the military view him as completely sane?
- [05:51]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Not really, Nicole. I'll answer that timidly. But based on the rantings over the weekend, based on the press conference today, based on the things he's saying, which are obviously against the law, I think two things are happening. First of all, the president is becoming increasingly enamored with the power of American military. And secondly, he believes that he can use it in any way he wants without regard to international law, the laws of land warfare, the Geneva Convention, or just straight out morality, being a moral person with values. So it's increasingly concerning that he is stating some of these things, and the way he's stating them are true indicators that something is amiss in his personality or his approach to the presidency, the greatest power in the world.
- [06:51]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Let me read from Just Security about what it does to the military. When the rhetoric includes threats of carrying out war crimes, asking our military professionals, lawyers and commanders alike, to grapple with the president's erratic behavior is enormously consequential. US Military commanders have sworn to obey the Constitution and only those orders from their superiors that are lawful threats to bomb Iran back to the Stone Ages and to show no quarter, no mercy are plainly illegal. Trump's outrageous statements gravely threaten our military professionals bedrock moral and legal principles, ones enshrined in the law of war that they've been trained to follow their entire careers. So we're post these trespasses, right? So these things have already happened. People warned that they could happen during the election. People warned that Hegseth might not be a good person to be on the wall for the rule of law inside the military. He's there anyway. And Trump is now threatening to bomb Iran to the Stone Ages. And Pete Hegseth has said that in his view, the theory of war in Iran is to give no quarter. What does that mean inside the military, General?
- [08:10]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
It means you use any means possible to kill people. You know, you're not going to let people escape. You're not going to take any prisoners. You're basically going to rape, pillage and plunder, taking it back to the 17th century. And Nicole, what we're talking about is behavior that modern societies have condemned and said we ought to at least pose provide guidelines for those who have to execute violence. Those are soldiers. And I'm going to go back to something you said a minute ago, because I've trained for 40 years as a soldier and as a commander. And when you're an officer in the United States army, you're loyal to a couple of things. You're primarily loyal to, to the Constitution. You are also loyal to your superiors if they give, as you said, lawful orders. When they start giving unlawful orders, you find a way to push back on them and to make sure they adjust their approach. But you also are loyal to the soldiers that are under your command. So those three loyalties sometimes are conflicting. So I'm sure there's a lot of military commanders right now, a lot of senior officers who are saying to themselves, I can't obey an unlawful order. I can't do things that I know are absolutely wrong. But they also feel like they have to provide support for their soldiers who don't just get to quit. They have to stay in the military and potentially see an uprising in all of these things. So the senior military officers are in a real quandary on this one because they know they can't do some of the things that the President is asking them to do, that they have a Secretary of Defense who has continually said lethality is better than legality or words to that effect. So it's really causing some dynamics within those who are thinking soldiers saying, how do I continue to serve my Constitution and live by the rules that are in law and still conduct these kind of actions which are horribly immoral and illegal?
- [10:24]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
What rationale that could serve what you just described as the sort of men and women of the military could possibly be conjured for the purge that is ongoing inside the military at the highest levels. By Pete Hegseth Right now?
- [10:42]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I think it's because people are doing exactly what I described. They're pushing back on them. There's been reports of General George, the Chief of Staff of the army, has pushed back on several decisions, decisions that the Secretary of Defense makes, which is his requirement as a senior officer to protect the army, protect his soldiers. And he is telling him about, hey, you can't just pull people from promotion list who have served a lifetime of service just because you want to, or, hey, you can't do. Well, I mean, I won't go into the various details of things that I think the army has been asked to do that I that I believe the Chief of Staff of the army, being the kind of moral character that I know Randy George to be, should push back on but there's others now. And we talked about last Friday. You had general four star General Dave Hodney, who was also relieved. I have no idea why he was relieved other than the fact that he may have served with someone like General Milley, who Secretary Hegseth doesn't like. But the one that I really was floored by was the request for retirement of two star general Major General Bill Green, who is the chief of army chaplains. I know Bill Green. There is no finer chaplain, there's no finer spiritual advisor or officer than him. He served as my chaplain on two different occasions. So I know him personally. And the fact that he is the chief of chaplains of all the chaplains in the army. Tell me, tell me, tells me something caused him to be chosen for that position a couple of years ago. And it was his character and his moral judgment. So when you take these three people together, you know, I can understand the relief of one or two people. But you're talking about, as I understand it, 14 different people that the president that Secretary Hegseth has relieved and has not given a reason for any of them. Those are the four stars and there's been many more, three stars that he's relieved. But you can only conjure it up by saying what positions did they hold and how were they influenced the force and what were they saying about the moral approach to the kinds of orders they were receiving and what kind of combat they were expecting to deliver?
- [13:04]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Anne Applebaum we have a tendency, I think, to think that we're the first or that we're new or that a purge of the most senior ranks of the military men and women of character as they're described by other former military leaders is unique, but it is not. It is a hallmark of a lurch toward autocracy. Just talk about what you see from that perspective.
- [13:33]
Anne Applebaum
I want to say two things. One is you're right, control over the military, control over the police, control over the use of the politicization of the arms, that parts of the government that are allowed to use violence and putting them at the service of one man or one political party as opposed to the service of the American people. This is a sign of political deterioration. You can point to. Look at Stalin's Russia. Stalin famously destroyed his general staff. You can look at other actually modern China, where you see the Chinese leadership removing people who are in the way of Xi Jinping. So the idea of removing top people who might object to the will of the leader is something that you can see in lots of autocracies But I'd also like to add something to what you were discussing before, namely, is the president crazy or is he insane, or is there something wrong? I would say I would look at it a little bit differently. This is a president who doesn't make connections. And whether it's to do with deterioration or illness or this is just the way his brain has always worked, I'm not equipped to say. But he's somebody who doesn't connect what he does in the present to consequences in the future. He doesn't connect things that he says today with how other people will react tomorrow. And so when you talk about something like the laws of war, why do we have laws of war? What was the reason why the international community came together over the last century or so and, and wrote them down or tried to create rules of engagement? That's because we also care about how our soldiers will be treated, how our prisoners of war will be treated, how our civilians might be treated. And the point of us adhering to a set of rules or a set of norms is that it then benefits us in the longer term. And what Donald Trump is not able to do is see that broader strategy. So he doesn't understand that the law has uses for us. It's not just something, as Pete Hexseth seems to imply, that binds us or controls us. You know, we need to break out and be really violent and ugly, and that's how we'll win. No, these rules have been useful to Americans. They've been important to the way America has fought wars. They've been important to the image of America, which also has all kinds of consequences down the road. You know, the United States, if it's seen as a law abiding power, as a country that tries to hit military targets and not civilian targets in any given conflict, and leave aside the question of whether this war is even legal. But those things have an impact down the road on our reputation, on our diplomatic capabilities, even on our military capabilities. And what's really disturbing about Donald Trump and what links him to really, what more profoundly links him to the world's authoritarians is is this inability to see that the norms are useful to everybody, including us. And neither he nor the Secretary of Defense seem to understand that.
- [16:41]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Well, I mean, and it's Hegseth and Trump's origin story, right? They meet because when Hegseth is a weekend Fox News morning show host, he's championing the cause of two men who went through the military justice system. He didn't like the outcome that the military meted out for those men on its own. He asked Trump to intervene. And that's how Hegseth and Trump know each other. I mean, everything about justice and the rule of law is repellent to Donald Trump. And at some level, it reeks of weakness. But I guess my question, Ann, about not connecting and crazy or not crazy, whatever the rationale, he's threatening to annihilate the laws of war while an American soldier is on the ground in Iran. I mean, it suggests that no one can connect to him either.
- [17:37]
Anne Applebaum
No, he, no, he doesn't connect even between, as I said, actions he takes in the White House and things that happen in Iran. He doesn't think about how the things that he says and does are interpreted and perceived. I mean, you can see a similar problem with American allies. American allies have been insulted. They've experienced tariffs. They see the president ignoring or minimizing their own security issues. They hear him from one day to the next, changing his rationale for the war, his strategy for the war, saying one day he needs allies, the next day he doesn't need allies. And then on the third day, he wants to destroy NATO because nobody is helping him. They can all hear that. And they are also drawing conclusions and hearing, you know, hearing the instability. And that has an impact on how they'll react, not just now, but even a few years down the road, even if there's a different president, this is not a moment that will be forgotten either by America's allies or by America's enemies.
- [18:39]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Yeah, I mean, his comments, I'll play his comments about NATO. I mean, also, you know, loose lips sink ships. He can't stop talking about the technical and operational aspects of the rescue operation, which, thank God, was successful. I'll show all that to you. No one's going anywhere. Also ahead for us, the US Military may very well be at an inflection point as the Trump administration publicly muses about violating the rules of war in the conflict with Iran. One of the six Democrats who put out a video calling on the men and women of the military to refuse any illegal orders. Congressman Jason Crow will join us to talk about all of this. Plus, Donald Trump's Easter rant has once again sparked Talk in the 25th Amendment. Even one time ally Marjorie Taylor Greene, as we said, is questioning Donald Trump's fitness for the office he holds. We'll talk about all that as well. And later in the broadcast, Attorney General Pam Bondi is no more. But it's still very much Donald Trump's Justice Department we'll talk about the push for justice by the survivors of Jeffrey Epstein as another Trump loyalist takes the wheel at doj. All those stories and much more when Deadly in White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere today.
- [19:52]
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- [20:00]
Anne Applebaum
My refund though.
- [20:01]
Congressman Jason Crow
I'm freaking out.
- [20:02]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Don't worry, I can fix this.
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- [20:09]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
I'm so relieved.
- [20:10]
Congressman Jason Crow
No problem.
- [20:10]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I'll be with you every step of the way.
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- [21:09]
Congressman Jason Crow
Was everyone on board with the operation or were there people that were trying to talk you out of going through with the operation this weekend?
- [21:15]
Donald Trump
Not everybody was on board.
- [21:16]
Anne Applebaum
Somebody else within?
- [21:17]
Donald Trump
No. There was military people, very professional that preferred not doing it. These two were totally on board, which was very important.
- [21:27]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
They weren't.
- [21:27]
Donald Trump
I would have a little difficulty, but no. There were military people that said, you just don't do this. You don't go into the heart of a very powerful military. How many men did you send altogether, approximately, for the operation?
- [21:41]
Congressman Jason Crow
I'd love to keep that a secret.
- [21:43]
Donald Trump
Okay, well, we are. But I will tell you the number. I'll keep it a secret. But it was hundreds and hundreds of these people.
- [21:55]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
That is not a secret. I want to bring in Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado to our coverage. He's a member of the Armed Services and Intelligence Committee. He's one of the six Democrats in that video we just showed you, General Hertling and then Applebaum are still here as well. Congressman, your thoughts on the state of public rhetoric from the commander in chief?
- [22:19]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, Nicole, he continues to put our military in very dangerous, very risky situations. And thanks to the heroism of our special operators, of our aviators, of our military generally, they have had tremendous tactical success in a lot of operations. But let's not confuse tactical success with strategic failure.
- [22:41]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Right.
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Congressman Jason Crow
This administration still does not have a plan, does not have an off ramp, has not been able to articulate to Americans and to Congress what he's trying to achieve, how he's going to achieve it. Right. So it is good, it is great, actually, to applaud and uphold the heroism and the incredible success of our military. But what remains true is this president continues to put them in untenable, very dangerous positions, and the American people are paying for it.
- [23:10]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
What do you. Trump today also said that his message to people who do not support the war, which just 8% of Americans would support, putting boots on the ground in Iran, and just 28% of Americans strongly or somewhat support the war, 60% oppose, 67% oppose sending boots on the ground. He said to all those people that, quote, they're foolish and that the war is about one thing. And I thought that one thing might be the thing that Rubio keeps talking about or the thing that J.D. vance has talked about or the thing that Lindsey Graham has talked about, but it's actually a different thing. It's, quote, iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. It's not their ballistic missile capability, as Rubio has suggested. It's not that they need to, quote, rise up, as Trump had suggested, toward the beginning of the year. It's about, according to Donald Trump, quote, one thing. Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. What is your current understanding, or is that it, that that is what we're doing there?
- [24:13]
Congressman Jason Crow
Yeah. Well, it has changed by the week. At one point, it's ballistic missiles and Nexus drones and nexus nuclear weapons. He has sprinkled regime change in there numerous times, and he continues to. Here is the bottom line. For me, the bottom line is we have spent over 20 years, five to $8 trillion, 7,000American lives in what is now an endless cycle of conflict in the Middle east. And Americans are over it. I'm over it. We have to find a way to extract ourselves from the cycle of endless conflict. Now, let's not be confused here. That doesn't mean that we don't keep ourselves safe, that we aren't strong and willing to use force when our adversaries threaten Americans or American interests. But that was not the case here. Right? This president and the administration completely failed to show an imminent threat. In fact, they have actually come out recently in the last couple of weeks and admitted that there is no imminent threat, that this was a long term play by the president and it's got to end, right? Americans are over this perpetual state of conflict when they can't afford rent, they can't afford their mortgage, they can't afford groceries. We have to end this cycle.
- [25:26]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Congressman, what do you make of the high level defections from deep inside the MAGA coalition? People like Marjorie Taylor Greene basically calling Trump nuts. Alex Jones calling out his physical, what Alex Jones describes as his physical maladies. Joe Rogan, every episode of late pointing to what a betrayal the war in Iran is. Megyn Kelly teeing off on the blind support for Israel that this administration shows. Now, these are not members of a political coalition that I assembled or would be a part of, but they are really important members of Donald Trump's political coalition and they are now publicly rebuking him for the first time in 10 years. What do you make of the political opportunity for Democrats to speak to a broader swath of Americans right now?
- [26:17]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, here's what's going on. It's actually very simple. Well, what's happened is the political elites, you know, wealthy executives, energy company executives, defense industry executives, made tons of money over the last 20 plus years while it was working class folks and folks largely from rural areas, not entirely, but largely from rural areas that did the fighting, did the dying, had to pay for these wars. Right? And let's not underestimate, you can never underestimate the anger and the resentment of folks like me and like those who I grew up with that saw this endless cycle of conflict and we had to bear the burden of it while the elites got all the benefit from it. Donald Trump actually noticed that. He saw that a couple of years ago, which is why he actually campaigned on ending the cycle of conflict and reining in military adventurism. But now as president, he's completely turned his back on those folks, completely turned his back on those promises. And he's become one of the most interventionist pro conflict presidents of our lifetime. Right? Seven now countries bombed in the first year of his administration alone. And now here we are in a war that nobody has approved, nobody in Congress has debated and voted on, and it's running amok.
- [27:36]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
He has threatened Iran publicly with acts that if the military carries them out most legal experts believe would amount to war crimes. You and five of your colleagues sent a direct message to the men and women of the military reminding them of their obligation not to follow an illegal order. Do you believe illegal orders are being given?
- [28:01]
Congressman Jason Crow
It's hard for us to tell because we're not getting the briefing and then the information that the Intelligence Committee, the Armed Services Committee, and Congress needs to receive to make that determination. I am gravely concerned by this President's comments about bombing electrical infrastructure, desalinization plants. I mean, that would be, on its face, a violation of the laws of war and would be a war crime. He is continuously threatening to commit war crimes, whether it's shooting protesters in Lafayette Square, which would actually be a crime against US Federal law, sending troops to polling stations, which also would be a violation of US Federal law. He has said he's going to kill the families of terrorists, which would be a violation of the laws of war. And of course, now with Iran, this is a president that has shown a complete disdain for the rule of law, for the Constitution, for the laws of war. And we have to stand up with unbelievable voices, Republicans, Democrats, Americans of all stripes, and condemn what the President is saying and say we will not tolerate it and we will seek accountability if he moves forward with it. And at the same time, I stand by that video that we filmed last year in telling our service members they have an obligation to the rule of law and to the Constitution, and that must always be their North Star.
- [29:21]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
General Hertling, let me bring you in on that point. Do you believe the men and women of the military have been given illegal orders?
- [29:30]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
I'll go with the Congressman on that. Unless you see exactly what the orders are, Nicole, you can't say for sure 100%. You also have to see what the lawyers say about those orders. But I got to tell you, as the Congressman just said, if you're talking about bombing desalinization plants and energy facilities and, and things that more civilians than military rely on, and it will cause chaos within the population, then, yes, that is an illegal order. As I read the various articles of the Geneva Convention, number 47 through 58, there are a bunch of different articles within the Geneva Convention that address this, and they are pretty clear. In terms of understanding how different strikes, kinetic strikes against objectives, will cause more harm against civilians versus the military capability to conduct their operations, then, yes, that's an illegal order.
- [30:25]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
I'm going to ask all of you to stick around with us. I'm going to sneak in a quick break. When we come back. Trump has attacked NATO today again. We'll show that to you. Well, I'll be right back.
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- [31:57]
Donald Trump
NATO is a paper tiger. Putin's not afraid of NATO. Putin's afraid of us. Very afraid of us. And he's explained it to me a lot of times. I got to know him very well. I know him very well. NATO's a paper tiger. NATO is us. And when we needed them, we didn't need them. By the way, we didn't need them, obviously, because they haven't helped at all. Just the opposite. They've actually gone out of their way not to help.
- [32:25]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
We're back with Congress Foundation Crow drummer Hartling and Ann. I feel like I finally understand Putin explained NATO to him. That is why he is the most anti NATO president the country has ever seen. I mean that to me, and that is the word that Putin uses in all of his domestic propaganda to his own country about what NATO is. If NATO didn't freak the you know what out of Vladimir Putin, you wouldn't be going berserk in Ukraine. I mean, just talk about what a pile of baloney Donald Trump has swallowed from Vladimir Putin. When it comes to NATO,
- [33:05]
Anne Applebaum
there are two very weird Things about that statement, several weird things, but two in particular. One is that Trump is talking as if the US did not create and lead NATO since the 1940s. That NATO.
- [33:19]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Do you think he knows that?
- [33:22]
Anne Applebaum
He seems to not know that. He talks about NATO as if the US Is not a member, as if NATO is. Europe also, by the way, often forgetting Canada and NATO is somehow separate from the United States and wasn't an integral part of American defense. You know, if you talk to any American general or admiral and they will talk about their war plans, they will all talk about how America will work with allies. Even right now, the NATO bases in Europe are in constant use in the war in Iran. So this is a. It's a fan fantasy that NATO isn't, you know, is somehow something else and somewhere else and nothing to do with the United States. That's one thing. The second thing is in the war in Ukraine, the United States has given almost no weaponry and no financial assistance at all to Ukraine since Donald Trump was elected. For the past year, the war is now 100% supported by Europe and other allies in Asia and elsewhere. Canada and the Ukrainians themselves now make a huge percentage of their own weaponry. They make their own drones. They now have the world's best drone industry. In fact, they're selling drones and doing drone deals right now all over the Middle East. You've maybe seen pictures of President Zelensky with various Arab leaders in the past several days and weeks. So this is a. This is a. You know, this is a. The Europeans have been conducting and running this war, which the Russians are not winning, despite the absence of the United States. I mean, it may be that Trump imagined that if the US Disappears, Ukraine will collapse. It didn't collapse. And that's because the European part of NATO, plus the Ukrainians, plus other allies, turns out to be very powerful. So it's almost as if he's. You're right, he's listening to Putin. He's getting this information from Putin. He's not looking either at American history, which of course, he doesn't know, nor is he paying attention to what's actually happening on the ground. I mean, it's as if he has no information from Ukraine and from Europe at all.
- [35:17]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
I mean, General Hartling, to Ann's point, it's like he has no intelligence agencies. I mean, Mr. Ratcliffe should be able to explain a classified version of what Ann just explained, that Ukraine's drones are so good, in part because necessity became the mother of ingenuity, in part because that is who they've been, they've been at war for so long. But to say something that will be, I would bet any amount of money that the domestic consumption of this statement, Putin explained it to me. NATO is a paper tiger. Will be all over Russian state media. What on earth, what on earth does that reveal in an American president at a time of work?
- [36:05]
Lieutenant General Mark Hertling
Not only Russian state media, but there were some things in his speech this afternoon that are going to affect Chinese state media as well. The comments about Japan and South Korea being dependent on us and how many forces we have there, which both numbers were wrong. But going back to NATO and you know, Nicole, I spent 12 years of my life in Europe in uniform. It is a body that compromises. NATO is a body that brings 32 other countries together and compromises. The president doesn't like to compromise with anybody. He just wants to have things his way. And what I saw also in that presentation today, the president's part of the press conference today. Both he and CIA Director Radcliffe and even Secretary of Defense Hegseth are enamored with the actions of the US Military. What the US Military did on Saturday and Sunday was magnificent. It was brilliant. But you know what? They're trained to do that all the time. This was not something out of the ordinary. It was a tough mission. They executed it. I would also like to question which general said we shouldn't do that because all of us military people grow up with the dictum of we will never leave a fallen comrade. So they may have said, hey, we've got to do a better risk assessment and how we're going to do this. But there was no general, I guarantee. I dare him to give me a name of someone that said we shouldn't do that mission. But again, I digress. I'm going back to NATO. NATO is a body that coordinates, provides resources when other nations can't. And we are as beholden to them as they are to us. It is a security alliance that works very well, sometimes very slowly, sometimes with a lot of bureaucracy, but it certainly has held together for almost 80 years, and it does a pretty good job in securing various things. And we have worked with all of the countries, the other 31 countries of NATO in a very fine manner. And President Trump is now finding out what happens when you dis those allies, call them names, try and intimidate them, and even threaten to invade them.
- [38:24]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
We want to get the congressman to weigh in on this. We have to get a quick break before we do that. One more break. We'll all be Right back. We're back with Ann Applebaum, General Mark Hurtling, and Congressman Jason Crow. Congressman, your thoughts about saying that everything he knows, well, that Putin explained it to him when it comes to NATO as well as the profanity lace tweet over the weekend. Open the effing straits, you bastards. Some of your colleagues have talked about the 25th Amendment. Miles Taylor wrote an anonymous op ed in the first term about invoking the 25th Amendment. Amendment. I guess the question is who, who, who would be a yay. Certainly not, you know, Pam Bondi or Pete Tegseth. What are your thoughts about where we are in this country with the conversation around the sitting president and how that reads around the world?
- [39:17]
Congressman Jason Crow
Well, Nicole, on the, on the NATO front, first of all, the combat veteran part of me gets pretty damn angry when a billionaire like Donald Trump, who's lived his entire life in luxury, maligns the partners and the allies that I serve with, that I fought with in Iraq and Afghanistan, that bled and died with us and fought with us in our hour of need. And now he's going to turn around and he's going to malign them and attack them. I mean, it's atrocious. It's atrocious and everybody should feel that way. Then the congressman part of me looks at the fact that here you have a bully who has spent his life trying to threaten people and intimidate people, whether in business or now in politics. And what he's doing is he's isolating us and he's making America lonely. Right. And an isolated, lonely America is a weaker America. It means we have fewer options, we have fewer friends, we have fewer alliances to call upon, just like we've seen in Iran the last 30 plus days. And just like we will see in the future unless we stop it and we reverse course on his isolation of this country.
- [40:31]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
I mean, as you're speaking, it strikes me that there's been reporting in the Wall Street Journal that Russia's aided Iran since this war has been underway in the last 38 days. And there he is today quoting Putin in maligning NATO. What do you take from where the war is being germinated or who he's sort of turning to as he, if he thinks it through? I mean, these sound like dumb questions. It's not clear he thinks much of anything through. But what is your sense of what sort of counsel he keeps? Congressman?
- [41:07]
Congressman Jason Crow
Yeah. We have a president of the United States right now that picks fights that America doesn't want and need. And then he pulls his punches on our real adversaries who really are threatening us every single day and our partners right now. Don't get me wrong, Iran is a threat and has been a threat. But does that mean that we needed to start a full out war with him? No, it does not mean we had to do that. And here you have Vladimir Putin, who he continues to have this affinity in love affair with at the same time as you have Ukraine, which is a real partner who wants to strive towards democracy, to sovereignty. That would be an unbelievable security and economic partner for this country. And he continues to malign them just like he maligns NATO. So he gets it all wrong. And the unfortunate part is it's Americans that have to suffer the consequences of that.
- [42:00]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Anne, what do you hear from your European sources about how here at the 38th day of the war, it's been publicly reported? I believe the Wall Street Journal reported it first, that Russia was offering some aid to Iran, that he's still there at a press conference Today on the 38th day, 13 United States service members are dead. And he's quoting Vladimir Putin and parroting his comments about NATO saying, quote, putin explained it, NATO's a paper tiger.
- [42:26]
Anne Applebaum
So I'm asked almost constantly to explain the relationship between Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. And all I can say is there's 10 years worth of report on Trump's long term business relationship with Russia, on his affinity for Putin personally, on and on and on going back to 2016 and even before that. I mean, Trump's first visit to Russia was when it was still the Soviet Union in 1987. He came back and he took out full page advertisements saying that the U.S. system of allies was a waste of money. So these are very, very old stories. And it's funny, Europeans of course, know them and they've known it since 2016, since the, since the Russians intervened in our election at that time in order to support Donald Trump. And yet it's true, people still find it hard to imagine. Think of it from the European perspective. Almost every European country is under constant cyber attack from Russia. So they're constantly thinking about how to parry cyber attacks. Many European countries have had sabotage attempts organized by the Russians. In Poland, there was a train track that was nearly blown up. There have been supermarkets and other military storage sites blown up in different parts of Europe. There have been murders of people who live in the uk, in Spain. So Russia is a constant problem and a constant security threat for everybody in Europe. And that's even leaving aside the open military threat to Ukraine and to the countries that border Ukraine and maybe even further. So for them, this is a even though everybody intellectually knows about this because they've been reading about it for a long time and it remains very, very hard to digest and understand. It's one of the most difficult problems for all European leaders today. Understanding why is it that Donald Trump retains his affinity for Putin despite his attacks on Europe and, as you say, despite his clear support for Iran, which goes back, by the way, not just to this war, but goes back many, many years.
- [44:28]
Nicole (Host/Anchor)
Yeah, it is remarkable and that it's a feature, not a bug. You know, that it came up today really unprovoked. No one was pressing him about where he got his information or views about NATO. Congressman Jason Crow, thank you for your time today. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling and Applebaum, thank you so much for being so generous with your time today as well. After the break, Donald Trump plans cuts to scientific research and disaster relief to pay for the war with Iran and for more gilded renovations to the White House. We'll bring you that story next. JP Morgan warned today that gas prices could top $5 a gallon if the war in Iran keeps the Strait of Hormuz closed. Don't worry. Donald Trump is not giving up on building his $400 million ballroom. So you know he can still dance. His administration just went back to court to argue that being asked to stop building his ballroom is, quote, threatening grave national security harms. On top of that, Donald Trump is now asking taxpayers to be on the hook for renovations to the executive residence to the tune of $377 million. That is according to the new White House budget request for next year. It marks a more than 800% increase from last year. As Politico points out, the same budget request, quote, proposes slashing domestic programs to help fund a $1.5 trillion bump to defense spending. Those programs on the chopping block include relief from natural disasters and research to cure diseases. The Marie Antoinette administration that says let them eat cake and pay for my Reno will stay on top of that. Coming up for us, quote, he has gone insane, end quote. A once loyal Trump ally raising the alarm about the direction Donald Trump is heading in. We'll bring you that reporting after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [46:31]
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