News Anchor / Interviewer (2:15)

I think that's a better attitude to go in with. But we're ready to go. I mean, the military is raring to go. They are absolutely incredible. I expect to be bombing, said Donald Trump on a morning TV show this morning. Hours later, though, now an extension of the ceasefire. But on the chaotic nature of the Iran ordeal, what about gas prices? Donald Trump predicted they'd be the same, or maybe, quote, a little bit higher by the midterms in November. Then he scolded his own energy secretary for saying they would not drop below $3 a gallon until the year 2027. The Strait of Hormuz, it was said to be closed, then it was said to be opened, then it was closed again. Politico today describes what appears to be an acceleration in what some see as a, quote, U.S. breakup with much of the rest of the planet. Quote, Trump's constant vacillation on what he wants to accomplish in Iran has not inspired confidence. Some former U.S. officials say allies do not know what to believe, adversaries do not know what to fear, and his own cabinet does not know what his strategy or intentions actually are. Said Thomas Wright, a former National Security Council official in the Biden administration who focused on long term strategy. Quote, the long term prognosis isn't terminal, but the question is what China, Russia, North Korea and Iran do with the next two years and nine months if this drift continues. In other words, uncertainty for our allies, uncertainty for the American people, and a high degree of uncertainty for the future at a critical and fraught moment for the entire world. That is where we begin the hour with Democratic Senator Lissa Slotkin of Michigan. She's a member of both the Homeland Security and Armed Services Committee. Senator, thank you for being here.

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (4:02)

Thank you.

News Anchor / Interviewer (4:04)

What is your sense of what's happening right now?

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (4:08)

Well, look, I mean, I think obviously this is incredibly complicated and delicate negotiations and it's hard and kind of where this on again, off again, will they, won't they thing goes on, as you said, in the Strait of Hormuz with ships, whether we're going to, you know, shoot at ships or board ships. But it also is happening on high level negotiations. And, you know, this kind of stuff does happen. But I think that the fact that it's kind of all playing out in public is what's different, right? The fact that the president, like you said, can say one thing in the morning and a different thing in the afternoon, it just makes it, you know, a bit chaotic for anyone to follow, but certainly sends a kind of strange set of messages to both our allies and our adversaries that they don't know, you know, are they having a conversation, are they going to be bombed? So it just, it's, it's a complicated thing to be doing it kind of

News Anchor / Interviewer (4:57)

over Twitter, a new poll from Pew asked the question, if people have confidence that Trump can make good decisions on U.S. policy toward Iran, 64% of all Americans have no confidence that he can do that. What are your conversations like with your constituents in the state of Michigan.

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (5:17)

You know, it's interesting. I think the biggest thing I hear is just kind of like, hey, you know, I hear we're spending all this money over there. I'm worried about, you know, my son or my nephew who's over there. And I just worry, like, what we should be doing is focusing at home. And I certainly think when it comes to the spending of the money, right. The president has signaled somewhere between 90 and $200 billion he's going to need for, for this operation, potentially more. And so, you know, people at home say, well, why can't we focus that here and, you know, figure out our schools or health care or whatever. On top of that, they're paying the price. I mean, you know, there are few costs as visible and as in your face as gas, right. And Joe Biden was on the receiving end of this in his term. You drive by a gas station, what, 20 times on your way to work. So you, you know, nearly $4 for gasoline, $5 for diesel every five minutes when you're driving. So there's this constant reminder that they are paying for the confusion that's going on in the Middle East. So it's not that anyone kind of follows the day to day of the negotiations. It's just they know that we're spending a lot of money and that people are coming back, unfortunately wounded and killed from the conflict that goes on.

News Anchor / Interviewer (6:40)

People seem to have internalized the betrayal that Donald Trump isn't doing any of the things he said he was going to do. You've been out front. You're someone who Democrats look to in terms of effective. Well, on two fronts. One, making the video, going toe to toe with Donald Trump, speaking directly to the men and women of the military, telling them it is their duty to disobey an illegal order, something that got you investigated by his Department of Justice. But also talking to the country and in this moment, when Democrats could have the attention of 75% of Americans who in one way or another either distrust or are turned off by something Donald Trump is doing, what is the conversation with 75% of Americans right now?

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (7:23)

I think the people feel like, look, you know, I look, I often feel like Trump has the wrong answer to the right question. And I think on cost of living and this threat to the middle class, you know, he ran on that and people felt like, hey, man, even if I don't like him, I feel like that's my issue that's keeping me up at night. I don't know If I can provide for my family, I don't know if I can send my kid to summer camp. I don't know if my kids are going to have a better life than me. And I want someone who's going to focus on that. I think that's why he got a lot of swing votes, for instance, in the state of Michigan. But then what he's done in the year since he's taken office is the exact opposite. He's taken military action in nine different places in 14 months, more than any president in American history. He's basically become a foreign policy president and kind of ignored the domestic emergencies that people feel in their normal life, housing, health care, childcare. And I think people are like, how come I can't get that bold action on the things that he said he was going to do? And, you know, I think that that sentiment has really seeped into the meat of the public, at least in the Midwest, because that is still the kitchen table issues are still the predominant issues that people are stressed about. And they just see him doing virtually nothing and in fact raising their costs.

News Anchor / Interviewer (8:40)

Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Greene are vomiting out all the good things they said about Donald Trump over the last 10 years. How do you see the political climate shifting ahead of the midterms?

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (8:51)

Well, look, I mean, it is very interesting again as an observer to watch kind of the intra maga fights and the battles. I give credit to the people who, you know, maybe thought one thing and then say something differently now when faced with reality, I think that's what we want and we have to give people an off ramp. I'm not sure those two folks are quite where I am. But I think the thing that, you know, heading into the midterms is it's often a referendum on the party in charge. And I think even my Republican colleagues are kind of preparing for a win, at least in the House and hopefully also in the Senate. You know, they just proposed a budget to fund ICE for the next three and a half years so that they never have to come through a potentially Democratic House or Senate to pay for things again. And that is an indication that they think they're going to lose the midterm elections. We have to see that through. But I think that's where the mood of the country is. I will say, though, and I think this is important for everyone to hear, just because you win in a midterm doesn't mean you're going to win in a general election. And that's where ideas and thought leadership and communication is really important. So we're going to have, I think, a good midterm, but we shouldn't take that. A win in the midterms does not necessarily mean we win at the ballot box in 2028. And if we don't work for it and don't think about lessons learned from the last election, we're not going to win in 28. And that is, to me, the most important thing.

News Anchor / Interviewer (10:22)

Well, and I mean, I think whatever happens, you know better than just about anybody that Donald Trump will be the, the president for the four years, barring some extraordinary activists, own party, I guess, could decide to grow a backbone and vote to impeach. You can't even imagine the scenario where he's not. So I want to ask you about the world in which we will all have to live. This is Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney on Sunday.

Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney (10:53)

The world, as I said earlier, is more dangerous and divided. The US has fundamentally changed its approach to trade, raising its tariffs to levels last seen during the Great Depression. Many of our former strengths based on our close ties to America, have become our weaknesses, weaknesses that we must correct. There are some who say there's no need for a comprehensive plan. They believe we should wait it out in the hope that the United States will return to normal, that the good old days will come back. But hope is in the plan. And nostalgia is not a strategy.

News Anchor / Interviewer (11:27)

How much has the world changed in 15 months?

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (11:31)

Well, just the fact that a Canadian prime minister can give that speech is, you know, if you would have told me 10 years ago that I'd be watching that on TV, I would have said there's no frickin way. I mean, I'm, I'm from Michigan. I mean, we are a border state. We are, we have family ties and property ties and cultural ties. And, you know, these are our Canadian cousins. And so it's painful, particularly as a Michigander, to hear that kind of a thing. But this is, to me, a result of the strategy that President Trump uses, which is kick allies and friends in the teeth and cozy up to adversaries. That seems to be his consistent theme. And we see the price for that. Right? We see what happens when he does that. You have our nearest closest neighbor sitting there talking about divesting from the United States and trying to diversify their supply chains after we basically worked alongside them for years. And then you see, like when we're going to war in the Persian Gulf, you know, if you don't tell them on the front end that you're doing something, it's hard to expect them on the back end. And given the way that he's treated them, they're seeing it as a liability to come to our aid. And so kicking our allies in the teeth has very specific economic consequences, military consequences, and to me, just represents a really a strategic approach from this president. And, you know, I hope that when we're done with this administration, you know, we're never going to snap back to the world the way it was. And I understand and take the point. This is not about nostalgia and all that. We are going to have to, from the ashes, figure out a new way forward. And this is why, again, I'm interested in thought leadership. I'm interested in people who have ideas on a new way of doing things. Because the old way didn't work, Trump's way doesn't work. So we're going to need something new.

News Anchor / Interviewer (13:18)

You're an intelligence officer. We started the broadcast today with former Director of the CIA John Brennan, who was in the political crosshairs of the Trump administration. They've hauled out Joe digenova now to try to investigate him when career prosecutors said there was no factual basis for doing so. What is, what is your theory? What is your theory of the case in terms of what the desired impact is on the current intelligence community to so doggedly harass the former director of the CIA, who simply assessed what John Durham bore out with the IG at doj, bore out that the original investigation into Russia's attack in 2016 was properly predicated.

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (14:00)

You know, I don't think it's targeted just at the intelligence community. I think it's targeted at who Donald Trump believes are his perceived political enemies. And it's a tale as old as time. I mean, it goes on in autocratic countries that I've studied as a CIA officer my whole life. Right? You use physical intimidation and legal intimidation to get your perceived enemies to shut up and then to send a message to all your potential adversaries, you better not try me, because I'm going to come for you. I'm either going to Sicily, you know, a bunch of dangerous people on you by saying, you should be hanged in my case and Mark Kelly's case, or I'm going to bleed you dry by making you pay tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees by coming after you in a frivolous lawsuit. And we hope that you be quiet when that happens, and that it sends a message to everyone else to be quiet. And I experienced this when they tried to criminally indict me for a 90 second video this is the strategy. The pain is the point. And I think what they're doing to John Brennan and so many other people, John Bolton on the Republican side is just that. And I think we need to call that out again, because if you do it today to a US Senator or to a former head of the CIA, imagine what they can do to a local clerk, to a mom who goes viral on TikTok, whatever. It just shows you the level of intimidation and it's out of an authoritarian playbook.

News Anchor / Interviewer (15:30)

Senator Alyssa Slotkin, thank you for fielding a wide range of questions today. We appreciate your time.

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (15:36)

Thank you.

News Anchor / Interviewer (15:36)

Thank you. I want to bring in staff writer of the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic Daily newsletter, Tom Nichols. He's a professor emeritus of National Security affairs at the US Naval War College. And with me for the rest of the hour, political analyst, host of the Bulwark Podcast, Tim Miller is here. She's so clear about the moment. But I think most interestingly, when you call out the authoritarian's playbook on the heels of Orban's collapse, is it just wishcasting, Tom Nichols, that I hope we're heading in the same direction?

Pin Verification User (16:08)

I don't think it's wishcasting. I think I've surprised people by saying that I'm less concerned now than I was a year ago because

Energy Secretary Chris Wright (16:19)

a lot

Pin Verification User (16:19)

of the people that should have that you would have thought and in this scenario should have been the people leading these charges are people that are just coming apart. Kristi Noem is gone. The Department of Homeland Security, I think, was supposed to be kind of a private police force for the president. At least the creation of these ICE units were. Kash Patel is the director of the CIA and has his own problems. Pete Hegseth, you're talking about using the military for political purposes. Pete Hegseth can't get out of his own way.

Angelo Carusone (16:58)

Now.

Pin Verification User (16:58)

That doesn't mean that, you know, all is well and that everybody should relax. But, you know, this is a White House that's characterized by chaos and infighting and incompetence and a certain amount of paranoia. I mean, they're, you know, they're kind of too busy keeping watch on each other to do some of the things that I think the president was hoping for in his revenge tour. And they're also running into and this is the place where I think we can be optimistic. They're running into the same problem over and over and over again in the courts where the judges of appointed by presidents of both parties are really holding the line.

News Anchor / Interviewer (17:37)

The public weighs in. And every time they weigh in, they reject this. The polls, Americans who say Trump's mental sharpness has gotten worse. It's 54% of independents, 51% of all adults confidence that Trump can make good decisions on U.S. policy toward Iran, 64% have no confidence, trust in Trump to make the right decisions about nuclear weapons. Only 27% of Americans, that is a small subset of his actual people who voted for him 15 months ago, have confidence that he can make decisions about nuclear weapons. Just so people know he is the sort of ultimate decider, if you will, on nuclear weapons. And a paltry number of Americans trust him with them. That is an extraordinary indictment of a president just one year and a smidge into his second term. Tim?

Tim Miller (18:35)

Yeah, the nuclear weapons thing is pretty concerning. I do have to say, you know, many of us made the case to some of those voters that the tail risk of Trump, you know, was so great that it probably wasn't worth betting on him, even if you did like his policy on grocery prices or whatever he sold you on the border. But we are where we are, and so definitely concerning to have his diminishing capabilities and the nuclear button. I think that would be the good counterpoint to, to Tom's point, which I agree with, which is that he has less support for his authoritarian ambitions than he did a year ago. One thing that I think was striking to me from the Alyssa Slotkin conversation is it's hard to imagine two people that would have more opposite views than Marjorie Taylor Greene and Alissa Slotkin. Kind of like the isolationist America first wing of the Republican Party, with Greene and Slotkin being more on the hawkish centrist wing of the Democratic Party. And they both have basically the same assessment of the Iran war, which is that this is really stupid, that we can't trust the people in charge, that it's doing more harm to Americans and our security than it's doing good. And I think that's pretty telling. And that speaks to Trump's declining political standing. And why we're seeing his approval rating get into the low 30s is that you kind of have this people. It isn't as. It isn't as if he is just angering kind of one group. Right. It isn't like the immigration raids where he was angering the college educated Harris voters that already opposed him, plus some Hispanic voters. Right. Or it isn't just one of these, the Epstein thing, where he was really angering the people that cared about that issue across the board. People are assessing this as a disaster. And I think to have someone like Slotkin from the Democratic side be so clear eyed and strong on this, given the fact that like you could imagine a different, you know, a different world where Nikki Haley was the president, where she'd be, whatever, more open to robust use of American power, and for her to be raising the alarm on this, I think is pretty telling.

News Anchor / Interviewer (20:36)

Tim and Tom, stick around with us ahead. Much more this betrayal of the MAGA Movement by Donald Trump Tucker Carlson is now apologizing to all of his listeners and all Americans for helping Donald Trump come to power as the war in Iran, the sputtering economy and the botched handling of the Jeffrey Epstein files splinters Trump's base spectacularly. Plus the utterly laughable claim the White House press secretary is making about her boss as he breaks promise after promise after promise. Then White House continues after a quick break. Don't Go Anywhere.

Uber Announcer (21:16)

With ShareMyTrip from Uber, you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most. Like Dan and Hannah, who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room. Or Tiffany, who's running late as usual and her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way.

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (21:31)

Look, she's right there. She's three minutes away.

Uber Announcer (21:33)

Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with ShareMyTrip on Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app.

OnDeck Advertiser (21:47)

OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow, Gaps on Deck's loans up to $400,000 help make it happen fast. Rated A by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five star Trustpilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes@ondeck.com depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic Bank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans in amount subject to lender approval.

Simone Sanders Townsend (22:16)

Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (22:24)

reported on it and now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

Simone Sanders Townsend (22:33)

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it too.

Eugene (Co-host of Clock It Podcast) (22:39)

Clock it with Symone and Eugene.

News Anchor / Interviewer (22:41)

All episodes available now. Foreign.

Energy Secretary Chris Wright (22:48)

I would Say gasoline prices looks like they peaked about a week or so ago, a dollar a gallon cheaper than they peaked during the Biden administration. Yet we're in the midst of ending a 47 year conflict in the Middle East, a major energy producing region.

Pin Verification User (23:03)

It is over $4 a gallon. Is that a reasonable, do you think that's a, a good price for people to pay at the pump?

Energy Secretary Chris Wright (23:12)

Well, in contrast to the last administration, our goal is as low of possible of energy prices. And yes, we were proud to have gasoline prices below $2 a gallon earlier this year and we look forward to getting them back there.

Pin Verification User (23:25)

What are they right now?

Energy Secretary Chris Wright (23:26)

Just over $4.

Pin Verification User (23:28)

And what is diesel?

Energy Secretary Chris Wright (23:30)

Diesel's over $5.

Pin Verification User (23:33)

It's closer to six in my state,

Energy Secretary Chris Wright (23:37)

to over eight in California.

News Anchor / Interviewer (23:41)

We're back with Tom and Tim. This was a cabinet secretary. Three have been fired, I think in the last, I don't know, two, three weeks. This Cabinet secretary, this is Energy Secretary Chris Wright, for folks who haven't seen him before, apparently was in trouble with Donald Trump, who came out publicly and called him, quote, totally wrong for predicting that gas prices wouldn't come down until 2027. But Senator Slotkin pointed out that the price of gas is an actual economic hardship for many American families. It is also a psychological blow. It makes people feel crappy about the economy. You see it everywhere you go. It is one of the things sort of that it feels like is breaking all of the mythology around Trumpism. Tom, talk about the things that they can't sort of fabricate a lie to cover up in this moment.

Pin Verification User (24:43)

Well, you can't, you can tell people all day long that things are great, but when it costs them more to fill their tank, they don't feel like things are great. And, you know, having Secretary Wright say, but Joe Biden doesn't, doesn't fix that. I mean, it's amazing. You know, when you talk to anybody who's, you know, a really fervent Trump supporter, the challenge is always try to explain what you like about Trump without mentioning Joe Biden or Barack Obama or Kamala Harris. You know, just do it on its own terms. And of course, you always get this. Well, they were higher under Joe Biden. Yes. Well, and, you know, inflation was higher under Ronald Reagan and, you know, Richard Nixon and Gerald Foot. Doesn't matter right now. These gas prices are higher because of a decision that Donald Trump made. And I think that, Nicole, that's the thing that's really jamming up the Trump administration because for the first time, people can see a Distinct decline in their economic circumstances that is directly tied to something Donald Trump did. Even with tariffs, you know, they could kind of wish it away and say, well, prices of this or that went up, but things always go up or down. Gas is a problem for them. Because there is no doubt that Donald Trump decided to do something and something, by the way, that no one wanted him to do. Even his own supporters didn't want him to do it. And that decision, that choice, led directly to an economic effect that really hurts and that is simply cannot be blamed on anybody else. And I think that's the thing that they're all wrestling with. We have a direct one to one, Trump did something, gas prices went up. There is nobody else to blame for it.

News Anchor / Interviewer (26:30)

Yeah, I mean, Tim, the chaos around the Strait of Hormuz can't be spun either. Here's a small business owner in Florida talking about the impact on his business.

Dr. Amarjeet Kaur (26:41)

You know, we are affected and we are, of course, very small that I feel like there isn't anybody listening to the small businesses. I feel like money is being squeezed here and big companies, of course, are surviving. But we are getting away from the personalized care. The access that we provide to the community right now is, is eventually going to go away if we don't help the small businesses survive.

News Anchor / Interviewer (27:15)

I'm sorry. That's Dr. Amarjeet Kaur. She's a pharmacist in Orlando, Florida, talking about the impact of all the uncertainty, to say nothing of the on again, off again closures of the straight of hormones.

Tim Miller (27:29)

Yeah, I had Tracey Alloway on the podcast today. She has her own show called Odd Lots. And they look at kind of these niche economic things. And so every time the economy gets bad, I start turning into odd Lots, kind of like a reverse signal of that, how things are going. And, you know, they've been covering this stuff. You know, it is, it's oil and gas, of course, but that, that goes into plastic, which goes into everything that we, that we, you know, consume basically, you know, this. It also is urea, which goes into fertilizer, which is going to affect food prices. It's also helium, which is very important in a lot of these data centers. And the parts of the economy that was actually growing, creating jobs right now, there are all these little examples of people that have disruptions. We saw this after Covid. This is what Biden went through in 2022. There were disruptions you couldn't predict from supply chains. This is what is going to happen here. What I keep going back to is a Lot of times when you think about the MAGA voter who's unhappy with Trump, you think about the person that shows up to the rally. But there's another category of people that voted for Trump that just don't follow the news that much. And this showed up in all of the data. Right. Like Kamala Harris did much better among people that follow the news closely. And so imagine you're one of those people that don't follow the news closely, and it's either because you're busy or because you're checked out and don't care. Whatever the reason, you woke up one day and went to the gas station and it cost you 10 more bucks to fill up your tank. And then you go to the grocery store and it's costing 10 more bucks. The next week, it costs 20 more bucks. And it's like, why is this happening? It's like the guy that you voted for didn't even tell you why, didn't even make the case. It wasn't like there was a terrorist attack here. It wasn't like he went to the public with a big speech and something that could break through to regular people and say, hey, the threat from their nuclear whatever is so great that we had to do this. He didn't even explain it. So there are a lot of people that voted for him who are having their lives disrupted by this, whether they be small business owners or just struggling working people trying to fill up their tank, and they can't even come up with a rationalization to give them an excuse. And so I just think that's why this is so different than a lot of his other failings and the way that it's not just impacted people, but it kind of sideswiped them. They didn't even see it coming. Their life got worse because of something Trump did, and they don't even know why.

News Anchor / Interviewer (29:46)

Yeah. The consequences are inescapable and the rationale is nowhere to be seen. It's amazing. Tom Nichols, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. Tim sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, Donald Trump's war in Iran is causing a major case of buyers remorse from all sorts of Americans across the political spectrum. They now include Tucker Carlson. He's apologizing for his role in helping to get Donald Trump elected. That's not all he's saying. We'll just show you what he said and ask you if you buy it. That's next.

Uber Announcer (30:26)

With Uber's new women preferences, women riders can request a woman driver whenever they want. Like Amy, who's traveling solo in a city she's never been to before, or Danielle, who works night shifts at the hospital, or Kelly and Jana, who were way overdue for a night out because sometimes comfort comes from having another woman with you. Request women drivers with women preferences on Uber. Learn more on the Uber app.

OnDeck Advertiser (30:56)

Need to restock inventory, cover seasonal dips, or manage payroll? OnDeck's small business line of credit provides immediate access to funds up to $200,000 exactly when your business needs it. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and full control over repayment, you can tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. Apply today at Ondeck and funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic bank on Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

Simone Sanders Townsend (31:26)

Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House and I reported on it.

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (31:35)

And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

Simone Sanders Townsend (31:43)

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it too.

Eugene (Co-host of Clock It Podcast) (31:49)

Clock it with Simone and Eugene.

News Anchor / Interviewer (31:51)

All episodes available now.

Tucker Carlson (31:58)

My campaign forum. I mean, we're implicated in this for sure. Yes. It's not enough to say, well, I changed my mind or like, oh, this is bad, I'm out. It's like in very small ways, but in real ways. You and me and millions of people like us are the reason this is happening right now. Yes. So I do think it's like a moment to wrestle with our own consciences. You know, we'll be tormented by it for a long time. I will be. And I want to say I'm sorry for misleading people in it was not intentional.

News Anchor / Interviewer (32:36)

I don't know. I don't know. I just don't know. Like, what did he not know before 2024? What was not known? Donald Trump had already grabbed women between the legs. Donald Trump had already incited a deadly insurrection. Tucker Carlson had already concluded that Donald Trump was a quote, demonic force. So I don't buy it. I don't believe you, Tucker. But that was Tucker Carlson for Vinny Suckers still watching him, apparently experiencing or at least projecting a brand new Persona that embodies this regret and torment and self loathing for helping Donald Trump. Three times. Tucker helped him. Three times. Trump has run three times. Tucker was there all the way. It is interesting though, because a lot of people still watch him and listen to him. And other right wing podcasters seem to follow him, people like Megyn Kelly. It's another thing that Trump has to grapple with. It's another symptom of the public displays of buyer's remorse that we are now seeing from key members of Trump's winning coalitions. And the waves of rebukes for Donald Trump as his MAGA base splinters and grapples with what is very much in the public behavior so erratic. Large majorities of Americans find him temperamentally unsuited for the job he has, as well as Trump's failures to make good on his campaign promises, largely to keep America out of wars or to release all the Epstein files or to lower the price of anything. The list goes on and on. I want to bring in Media Matters for America President Angelo Carazone. Joining me at the table, political analyst Molly John Fast. She's the host of Fast Politics and a New York Times contributing opinion writer. Tim is still here. Angela, what do you think?

Angelo Carusone (34:31)

So I think you're right to pick up on something is off there. I think there probably is buyer's remorse, but I think the reasons are actually very unsettling and scary. And I think that there's sort of two things happening at the same time here. There are these things happening in the larger right wing ecosystem that is sort of undermining Trump's political power. These sort of fault lines that are turning into full blown cracks and fractures that are not going repair. And that's going to be something that is going to plague Trump now for the foreseeable future. And then the second layer to this is what is actually being said here. Because if you listen to the dialogue between Tucker and Buckley, the remorse that they're expressing is not that Trump is being unreasonable, it's that Trump is being weak. They start, they go in and discuss how he didn't do enough to crack down on the riots after George Floyd. They say that was the first time that we knew something was maybe off because he wasn't aggressive enough. Or they attacked him for saying that he didn't exercise his power after the 2020 election to essentially overturn it and stay in power, that he was too weak to do it or that he didn't defend the January Six rioters enough. So their list of gripes and grievances sort of, you know, this is this moment, this catalyst because it is about the Iran war. But it's not that that is just, that's the catalyst that starts to get them to think, okay, here are all the things that he has not done enough of. This is our bloodlust. This is the story that they're telling. This is the direction that they're trying to bring Trump's base, post Trump. And that's the scary thing for all of us to come to terms with. To put it simply, they're basically mad that Trump is doing foreign wars as opposed to using all of his time, energy and capital at home, grinding immigrants and political opponents and Democrats with his boots. That's what they're fundamentally mad about. And that's really different than some of these other fault lines like we've talked about in the past. The broadcast, the manosphere that probably really just did both. They wanted no new wars and they didn't necessarily want full blown fascism. The way that Tucker Carlson and Buckley are talking about, and I think that's the thing to keep in mind here, is that they're giving us a keyhole view for where they're trying to take things and so we can take both things to be true. They have remorse, but they also have an agenda that is trying to steer the ship in a much scarier direction.

News Anchor / Interviewer (36:45)

Well, I mean, speaking of the manosphere, Tim Miller Joe Rogan crawled back to the Oval Office and stood about as close as you could physically stand to Donald Trump in every picture. He attended an announcement about regulations around psychedelic drugs and their treatment of depression anxiety. Here's Jon Stewart's take on that.

Eugene (Co-host of Clock It Podcast) (37:13)

I bougaint because it's so important and experienced an 80 to 90% reduction in symptoms of depression and anxiety within one month. Can I have some, please? I'll take it. I'll take whatever takes. Oh, my God, he's depressed. Hey, don't be depressed, sir. Trump won't be president forever. And to be frank, I don't think Donald Trump should treat that with hallucinogenics anyway. But if he did, would we even notice if he took hallucinogenics, he'd be like, they're eating the cats and dogs. Right. Right near my beautiful ballroom. By the way, did you know I'm Jesus?

News Anchor / Interviewer (38:16)

It's been years since he's done anything that made me laugh. Trump, not Jon Stewart. But the point is a serious one. Like, what would shock anyone anymore? Like posting a picture of himself as Jesus and instead of saying it was doctored, saying, I meant I was a doctor. I mean, we're there.

Tim Miller (38:33)

Yeah, I don't want to roll the dice with Trump on mushrooms, so let's just not do that. I do think there's like an important difference between Rogan and Tucker that I just, I think it's important to share. I do believe that Joe Rogan genuinely believes in the healing power of hallucinogenics. And I think that he thinks he's using his influence for good. Plenty to criticize Joe Rogan about. I think that continuing to nudge him along, away from Trump is useful. Is he ever going to go have the scales fall from his eyes and go full resistance? I don't think so, but I just, I think there's something to be said for it. The Tucker thing is different and malicious, and it's malicious in all the ways that Angelo brought up, but it's much just in one other way. I just want to be clear about. Tucker is a liar and a fabulous and a very convincing one. And he's very good. He's very good at podcasting. It's compelling. Like, if you watch it, he's entertaining. You can believe him. He's good at faking his feelings about things. But as you said, Nicole, we know from his private text, he said Trump was a demonic force. He saw everything clearly. This is all part of his game, part of his modern day Father Coughlin gang, which is extremely pernicious. And he's trying to advance horrible views and ideologies into the public sphere. And so I'm begging people, I think there are certain cases where there are right wing folks who are coming around on him and criticizing him, even Marjorie Taylor Greene at times, and certainly Thomas Massie and others who it's worth elevating them. But if I had a dollar for every person who's come up to me recently and said, you know, I just had to share this Tucker Carlson clip on Instagram because he was really making sense and it's just public service announcement, don't do that, don't do that. You're playing into his hands. Yes, he can be a compelling demagogue, but just because he happens to agree with us on the Iran war does not mean that putting him into the feeds of people who are susceptible to persuasion is a good idea. Psa.

News Anchor / Interviewer (40:34)

All right, I need to hear more about that. I want to bring Molly into this conversation as well. I have to sneak in a quick break before I do that. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Angelo, Tim and Molly. There's more Tucker, but I'm going to take Tim's editorial note and not play it. Your thoughts?

Molly John Fast (40:53)

Yeah, I mean, I think every. I agree with everyone on this panel, but I think that this idea that Tucker has had some kind of moral clarity is really wrong and also really deceptive. I mean, he's dangerous and he's. And, you know, the problem with Tucker, which is not the problem necessarily with Joe Rogan, is that he's very smart. So he's clearly put together.

News Anchor / Interviewer (41:14)

Right.

Molly John Fast (41:14)

He's put together some kind of plan. And you see, I mean, Donald Trump is 79 years old. He's polling as low as he's ever polled.

News Anchor / Interviewer (41:22)

It's a lame duck, right?

Molly John Fast (41:23)

So Tucker's thinking, like, what comes next? And we know that a JD Vance on his humiliation tour, back and forth, trying to reopen the Straits of Hormuz, like, this is not gonna be the thing. And, you know, Trump doesn't wanna necessarily crown an heir apparent because it makes him even more lame duckier. And so I think Tucker Carlson sees an opening for Tucker Carlson presidential campaign. And that's what we're seeing. And we see him using the religion, using Easter. Remember, he's so offended by this Easter tweet. He's doing that because he sees an opening for religion. And you have Trump fighting with the Pope. And so you do see a place for Tucker to try to run sort of to the right of. Sort of cheerful, but to the right of Trump. And so that's what I think we're seeing here.

News Anchor / Interviewer (42:10)

Yeah. I mean, Angelo Trump. Trump's conduct on Easter Sunday came under scrutiny by Tucker Carlson, where he, you know, I can conflate the SNL spoof on, you know, what are we doing with the actual Tucker. But his indictment was about how could Trump do these things on Easter. I mean, Trump incited a deadly insurrection. Trump on Access Hollywood talked about grabbing women between the legs as women are people's daughters. Tucker never had any compunction about backing him again. Not once, not twice, but by his own telling, three times, and maybe making the difference. Yeah.

Angelo Carusone (42:49)

And there's no doubt about it. And that I think in Tamales Point, there is an intentionality here, and it's not just purely about ratings or what's going to get him the most engagement. It is a very deliberate, calculated effort to build political power in a larger movement that is experiencing all these fault lines. You know, a year ago, Trump had total control over the. This coalition of coalitions, of all these individual constituent parts. As that fractures, it's like a pinata burst. It's up for grabs. And that's why, you know, it's not just that Trump gets weaker, it's that that audience becomes up for grabs. They themselves need a story. They need something to latch onto. And so Tucker weaving together these various themes is just like what Trump did in 2015 when he hijacked the Republican Party right out from underneath Fox News.

News Anchor / Interviewer (43:34)

He leapfrogged.

Angelo Carusone (43:34)

He leapfrogged. Roger Ailes took over the Fox News audience and by extension took over the rest of the Republican Party. That's how he was able to defy the odds and steamroll through. And in a way, that is what Tucker is doing now, whether it's to run for president or be the kingmaker himself. That's, that's the real story here, from my perspective is the direction in which he's trying to build and take that base. And, and, you know, that's the key. And he's making a play on something much scarier, much darker, and that has this veneer of palatability to it. And think about how quickly people are willing to Tim's point to say, wow, gosh, Tucker is making a good point. That's like Trojan horse stuff. Poison pill. We gotta be careful.

News Anchor / Interviewer (44:11)

Last word.

Molly John Fast (44:12)

And if you think, if you, if you think about Tucker Carlson and how he's watched a guy who was a reality television host who wasn't even in politics, sort of block out the sun, you could see how Tucker might see a path for himself. You know, he was actually, you know, he had a lot of power in the Mago universe, and he continues to. So you could see where he's trying to consolidate his power for whatever he thinks comes next.

News Anchor / Interviewer (44:40)

Unbelievable times. Angelo, Molly, Tim, thank you so much for joining me today. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. My guest this week on the Best People podcast is an essential voice in this moment, and especially when it comes to anything related to this Supreme Court or to voting rights or to the state of our very democracy. Civil rights lawyer and former head of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, Sherrilyn Ifill. You can watch the Entire conversation on YouTube by scanning the QR code on your screen right now, or you can listen wherever you get your podcasts. Be sure to let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful.

Uber Announcer (45:28)

On any journey using Uber, it helps to know you're getting into the right car. Pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins. Your app gives you a unique pin. Just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app. Before the ride can start.

Pin Verification User (45:42)

Hey, what's your pin?

Senator Alyssa Slotkin (45:44)

2538.

Uber Announcer (45:45)

That way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip, and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber Apple.