← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
"Trump has made mail in voting his boogeyman"
00:41:55
June 12, 2026, 5pm: Nicolle Wallace on mail in voting being safe and secure enough for Donald Trump -- just not anyone else -- especially not anyone who wants to vote against him.
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- [00:00]
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- [00:36]
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- [00:37]
Nicole Wallace
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- [01:04]
Donald Trump
Mail in voting means mail in cheating. I call it mail in cheating and we got to do something about it all. I'm President of the United States, and because of the fact that I'm President of the United States, I did a mail in ballot for elections that took place in Florida because I felt I should be here.
- [01:25]
Nicole Wallace
Do as I say, not what I do. Hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. I kid you not. Those two clips were not from years apart or like one when he was president and one when he was just a reality TV guy. They were three days apart. Mail in voting is of course safe and secure, even for Donald Trump, just not any of the rest of us, especially anyone who might want to vote against him in a battleground state. In his massive effort to undermine our elections in America, Donald Trump has made mail in voting his new delusional, phony boogeyman. He's railed against it for years now, saying without any evidence that it is ripe with fraud and is taking steps to undermine it severely. Back in March, he signed an executive order creating a national list of voting eligible citizens. Now, the United States Postal Service, a federal agency, but one that is supposed to be independent, is making a move in line with that. Eo. New York Times reports this quote. The U.S. postal Service has proposed a new rule that would allow it to refuse to deliver mail ballots in states that do not turn over voter rolls to the federal government. The rule proposed Last week is vaguely written, but appears to establish broad authority for the agency to intervene in the mail voting process. It calls on states to compile lists of mail voters that Postal Service employees would use to screen ballots for eligibility. If states refused to comply, the agency could refuse to send their mail ballots. As for the significance of this new rule, the New York Times adds this reporting, quote, screening mail ballots for voter eligibility, meanwhile, would amount to an unprecedented and potentially unconstitutional involvement of the federal government in the administration of elections. This being just one piece of the Trump administration's larger effort to. To exert more federal control over elections. As we spoke about in the first hour of this program, Donald Trump has his Justice Department sowing deep distrust in the voting process and inserting itself where it isn't allowed to be. He installed election deniers in positions of power in his second cabinet. He championed Republicans to redraw their congressional maps. And last week, he claimed, without evidence that there's fraud in California's elections, the defenders of democracy are not giving up this fight. Lawsuit after lawsuit has been filed against these efforts. And just yesterday, quote, a federal appeals court expedited a bid to block Trump's sweeping attack on mail in voting, a hopeful procedural sign for voters as the administration pushes ahead with plans that could upend how mail ballots are cast for the 2026 midterms. The Trump administration's attempts to interfere in our elections is where we begin the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. National voting rights correspondent for Mother Jones, Ari Berman is back with us. Also joining us, voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy Docket, Mark Elias is back. And with me for the hour, political analyst, host of the Bulwark Podcast, Kim Miller is back with us. Mark Elias, I know you're on the front lines legally fighting all of these efforts, like whack a mole. Just tell us about this. This feels like an audacious move, even for them. Just take me inside the post office piece of this.
- [04:47]
Mark Elias
Yeah. So that case that's expedited to the D.C. circuit, that's actually my lawsuit. And look, there are two things going on simultaneously. The first is that Donald Trump and the Department of Justice are trying to get access to every state's complete voter file. Okay. The second thing going on is that they are trying to use the Postal Service to say that if states don't pre clear with them who it is that they want to send mail in ballots to, then the Postal Service won't send the ballots to them. So, in other words, on the one hand, the Department of Justice says, give us all your data on the other end or not. On the other hand, in addition, they are saying if you don't share in advance who you want to give mail in ballots to, and we don't look at that list and remove anyone who we don't think should be on it, then we will not mail anyone in your state a mail in ballot and anyone not on that list won't get a mail in ballot. This is not, as the New York Times reported, potentially unconstitutional. This is wildly unconstitutional. I mean, the fact is that Congress or the Constitution gives the states the power to set the time, place and manner of elections. It lets Congress override that by legislation. This is not legislation. This is Donald Trump and a pen and a piece of paper masquerading as an executive order that is just a screed of a press release claiming powers he does not have. In addition to that, Nicole, the U.S. postal Service is in the U.S. constitution and it is not under the control of the Commerce Department, which Donald Trump also seems to have not realized. So, like, everything about this is cockeyed. Everything about this is wrong. It's unconstitutional. He's not gonna get away with it. But in the meantime, he is sowing a lot of confusion and he is laying the groundwork for when he loses to claim it was all fraud. If that sounds familiar, it's because it's what he does. Every time he does something, he claims a position that's not legal, he loses in court, and then he uses the fact that he's lost in court as somehow evidence to then go a step further.
- [06:57]
Nicole Wallace
Mark, he's also saying the political piece out loud, not that you need any help with any of your legal briefs, but he's admitted this. This is in the New York Times. There are vanishingly few instances of illegal noncitizen voting. Democrats have repeatedly accused the of trying to give Republicans an electoral advantage in the name of improving election security, and Trump has not denied it. At a gathering of Republican lawmakers in March, he framed support for legislation that would in part crack down on mail in voting as a way to hold the GOP majority in Congress. Quote, it'll guarantee the midterms, he told them, warning that failure would bring big trouble. I mean, he's saying that without fraud, he wants to do these extraordinary and unconstitutional things to tip the scales in the midterms and the Republicans advantage. How do you take that and stomp out all of these maneuvers in court?
- [07:54]
Mark Elias
Yeah, this is kind of the interesting thing, is that the Republicans went from the this is all about fraud to this is all about winning. I mean, Donald Trump also said something essentially to the effect of, well, Steve Hilton won the second slot in the California race because I made a fuss and therefore I changed the outcome. Like, I'm sorry, what the President United States is claiming. I mean, it's a lie, obviously, but he thinks he can just decide who wins or loses elections by his own decree. But that's what Donald Trump's always been about. Like, Donald Trump has not been about fair process. He just wants the outcome he wants. I mean, you know, when he was caught on tape in 2020, he didn't say, go find lawful votes. He was just like, go find me 11,000 votes one way or another, and I'll take care of the rest. And that is how he views all of these things. None of this is about making sure there's not fraud. None of this is making sure people can vote. None of this is about making sure that the rules are followed. This is all outcome determinative. And that is why he is attacking California, because he wants to go to California for the same reason Willie Sutton went to rob banks, which is that that's where the seats are. And so he is setting up a structure where he can decide that when he is eight or 10 seats short of a majority in Congress, he can, oh, look, you know where I found eight or ten Democratic seats? California.
- [09:16]
Nicole Wallace
How do you. We haven't talked to you in a couple days, so I'm sorry to hit you with all these headlines, but how do you take the FBI raid or investigation into pro democracy and civil rights leaders and organizations in Ohio? The refusal to put in writing that they are killing the $1.8 billion slush fund for the foot soldiers of January 6th up to and including the violent insurrectionists. The constant, constant talking about fraud in California, not just from Trump, but from Jay Clayton, the new Director of National intelligence and the U.S. attorney out there in California. I mean, just. I mean, if they're related, how do you see that relation?
- [09:59]
Mark Elias
Yeah, on the Clayton thing, I mean, he was just auditioning. I mean, it's now clear what was going on. All of a sudden, Jay Clayton, a federal prosecutor, winds up on CNBC in the morning talking about the possibility of fraud in California. And originally I was like, what the hell is that? And now I get it. Like, he needed to clear one last hurdle to get his job as the dni, and it was making sure he was a made man on election denialism. So I think that's, like, off to Itself. I think, Nicole, it's interesting I was on with you. I happened to be in the studio the day of the Tish James indictment in Virginia. And I think one of the things that has happened is that we have tended to view the weaponization of government through the prism of going after high profile opponents of Donald Trump, people like James Comey, people like Tish James. And that's important. I mean, that's an important story to cover. But what's been going on beneath the surface, whether it's this situation in Ohio, whether it's the U.S. attorney, as you say, in, in California, saying that, you know, they're going to try to find some evidence of fraud and prosecute, whether it's, frankly, the prosecution of the Southern Poverty Law center, like what's going on is a different kind of weaponization and it doesn't involve these high profile individuals. So it doesn't necessarily rise to the of everyone's attention. But there are two ways to destroy an opposition movement. One is to abuse political power to go after high profile leaders. The other is to abuse political power to go after the organizations actually doing the work on the ground. And I think that it is important that we pay as much attention to that second weaponization as we do the first.
- [11:35]
Nicole Wallace
Ari, you do a good job, keep me a better job than I do keeping those two things in balance. The, the second, though, these are not the people who are going to set up legal defense funds and have millions of dollars to protect them. These are not necessarily beneath the leadership positions, folks with the ability to recruit the former top lawyers who worked in normal justice departments to defend them. These are people who could be not intimidated away from the work, but perhaps intimidated in a manner where they don't necessarily complain about the subtle acts of intimidation. And I wonder if you could speak to Marc Elias's point about harassing the sort of infrastructure of our democracy.
- [12:22]
Ari Berman
Well, thank you for having me back, Nicole. And you're absolutely right. I mean, this is a now broadening power grab. And the FBI raid in Ohio is so disturbing because it directly relates to groups that are doing work on this election. I mean, the raid in Fulton County, Georgia, where they took 700 boxes of ballots for 2020-20-20 was extremely disturbing. And yes, it was aimed at much about this election as the 2020 election, which was the balance they wanted to seek. But now they are directly going after groups that are working on the midterm elections, groups that are doing voter registration work, groups that are doing get out the vote activities, groups that are opposing gerrymandering and other things that the president is trying to do. And so it sends a signal that they are going to directly interfere with in the election system in even more tangible ways. And they're going to go after groups that may not be able to defend themselves in the same kind of ways, but may actually be having a more tangible impact on people's ability to vote. And there's a lot we still don't know about this investigation. But, I mean, Ohio is a major Battleground State in 2026. It has a competitive Senate race. It has a competitive governor's race. It may be thought of as a red state, but is very much a battleground in terms of the midterms. And I expect more of these things to happen. We've already heard the FBI director, they are going to prosecute election officials. And again, that's as much about the current elections as the past elections, because what they want election officials to do is the same thing they're trying to do with the post office, which is fall in line and follow our policies or face the consequences. And that has really dangerous ramifications for free and fair elections.
- [14:01]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Miller, I made this point yesterday, and I'm curious your thoughts on it. I mean, Bill Pulte, I don't know much about him, but he seems like someone who might actually be like Inspector Clouseau looking for this fraud that Trump keeps talking about. But Jay Clayton knows there isn't any fraud. So does Todd Blanche just talk about the, you know, weaponization? Doesn't quite get at it. It's the absolutely fraudulent deployment of federal law enforcement assets to investigate crimes that the people at the top know don't exist.
- [14:36]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that's right. I mean, it's the state telling you not to believe your lying eyes. Right. You know, they, of course they know it's a lie. I think that's mean. And sometimes I wonder if that's true. Right. Does it matter if they believe what they say or not, if the outcome is the same? But I think it's meaningful, at least as an insight into what their strategy is going forward. And to Mark's point about Jay Clayton, feeling, I guess, like he had to, or maybe he was asked to, I don't know. Maybe we'll find out in a book in many years, go on to CNBC to discuss, like to throw out an obviously cockamamie theory about California vote fraud, like based on nothing, and then a few hours later being told he's going to be the head of dni. That's very telling. Right. It's very telling. Trump wants to use the government and the long arm of the state to investigate this stuff, to go after foes and to create doubt. And the other thing that Mark said that I just really agree with is looking to California as the example and why it's important they keep calling him California. Similarly to California, Maine takes way too long to count their votes. Maine is having ranked choice voting. We still don't know who the nominee is. And one of the congressional districts there, because they're still counting. Regardless of what you think of personally, any viewers or anybody about whether that system makes sense, be it ranked choice voting or the system that both have where you can mail in ballots later and they still count as long as they're mailed in by Election Day. What that has done is created this environment where they could not be more obvious about what their plan is. They are laying the groundwork to challenge the mail in ballots in California. And because there are so many seats, as Mark said he offered, if they lose by eight or 10, maybe they'll find eight or 10 districts. Who knows? If they lose by 20. There are 20 districts in California, there are 50. So it kind of doesn't matter how close it is. You can try to challenge the California mail ballots. And I just think that this is a blaring red light that everybody needs to look at. I personally think California should just should change the rules for how they count votes, not because they're doing anything wrong, but because it creates this long period for bad actors to do shenanigans. If you don't believe that, there has to be other preparations, which I know Mark and others are working on, to think about how to combat this, because this is what's coming. The fact that the head of TNI went on to make a fabricated claim about California is because they know what's going to happen in November, and they know that California is the place where they can try to make it seem like there's fraud. And then who knows what happens? Then maybe Mike Johnson decides not to seat the California delegation. I mean, we could speculate, but that
- [17:17]
Nicole Wallace
is, he did that to some.
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Tim Miller
Those are the things that they're at least thinking about. And it's all right in front of our eyes right now.
- [17:23]
Nicole Wallace
Right? And anyone who thinks that Mike Johnson wouldn't do that, he did it to stop the vote on the release of the Epstein files, which is a bipartisan vote. I mean, he'd already lost Thomas Massie. So the idea that he's going to be some bulwark of and after probably. I mean, like the California maps, like the points all of you are making, that's where the seats will be.
- [17:42]
Ari Berman
All right.
- [17:43]
Nicole Wallace
No one's going anywhere. For better or worse. There's a lot more on this story to tell you about. Also ahead, why Donald Trump thinks he has to steal the midterm elections in the first place. It has a lot to do with how, frankly, pissed off his own voters are at him just 15 months after electing the guy. Many of them are saying out loud and in front of TV cameras enough. Show you what that sounds like and why. Trump's lame duck phase of his presidency is already very much here. Plus, it's being described as vulgar, violent, commercial, grandiose and tacky and something that dishonors a place once thought worthy of care and respect. We're not just talking about Trump, but about the birthday party he's hosting this weekend and the incredibly crass and tasteless move he's making tonight to get it underway. We'll explain all that later in the hour. And we're keeping an eye on the Kennedy center where workers are preparing to remove Donald Trump's name from the side of the building. We'll bring you live pictures when his name starts coming down. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [18:57]
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- [19:23]
Nicole Wallace
Prices and participation variable supplies last not
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Mark Elias
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- [19:28]
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- [20:29]
Nicole Wallace
We are all back. Mark Elias, your account says that you're tracking 157 active voting rights cases, 41 active redistricting cases, 79 active anti voting cases, 74 pro voting cases and 32 DOJ lawsuits. It's, you know, a veritable anti democracy circus with, you know, five rings. What do you need need to prevail on the pro democracy side ahead of November?
- [21:02]
Mark Elias
So look, I think that the biggest number in that list that people should pay attention to, I mean the one that jumps out at a lot of people are the redistricting numbers, which are bonkers given where we are in the middle of the election cycle. But the one I want to focus people on is that there are more active anti voting cases right now than pro voting cases. Now this is an important distinction because if you ask yourself if all of those cases prevailed or all of those cases lost, what would the net effect be? The net effect would be bad. Right? And this is ahistoric. There has not been an election cycle where we have ever seen there be more use of the courts to restrict voting rights than to empower voting rights. Historically there were no anti voting cases. If I had been on your show 10 years ago and I said that there were anti voting cases, you might very well have said, Mark, can you give me an example of what that is? Right, because like nobody litigated to make voting harder. Now anti voting litigation is a staple not just of the Republican Party, not just of a vast right wing network, but also of the Department of Justice. So the reason why that number is so big relative to the past is that for the first time we have the Department of Justice bringing anti voting litigation. And that has never happened before. It didn't happen under George Bush. It didn't happen under the first George Bush. It didn't happen under Ronald Reagan. Like it didn't happen under Richard Nixon. That just like wasn't a thing, but it is decidedly now. So what do we need? Look, we need more people to be in this fight, particularly as big law has retreated from this fight. We need more people to be in it. We need more attention brought to it. We need more lawyers willing to stand up. We need more journalists to be willing to shine a spotlight on it. We need more podcasters and YouTube superstars like Tim to have people like me and Ariane to shine a spotlight on it. We just need more of everything.
- [23:00]
Nicole Wallace
You know what's interesting though, is that voters have a way of understanding this, I think. I mean, you see it in Hungary, right? It took 16 years. Heaven help us if it takes us 16 years. But there is a thing where if people think you're trying to take something away, it is a voter incentive in and of itself and it should never come to that. I mean, that's the asymmetry. Something that I think has been a feature of the 11 years of Trump in the first place. But Ari, when you look at the efforts to combat this, there is an asymmetrical fervor around what Mark Elias is talking about. I mean, there is no fraud, right? Bill Barr was more than willing to go look for it. He didn't find any. And it culminated in him calling it bullshit and quitting because he wouldn't fabricate fraud. But he was happy to go look for it. He didn't find any. After the 2000 election, Jim Baker and former President Jimmy Carter went and looked for. There wasn't any then either. Voting fraud isn't a crime. That happens. And when it does, the criminal justice system deals with it. But there are now voter suppression laws, hundreds of them, in 8, 49 states, I think predicated on the lie. How do we clean out all of the corrupt conduct predicated on something that isn't even real, the lie about fraud?
- [24:18]
Ari Berman
Well, I think the people who are doing the vote suppression, the people that are doing the illegal gerrymandering, they need to be held to account. And it's very clear that the system is unfair right now. I mean, we would have no debate over whether Democrats would take back the House right now if not for the unprecedented mid decade gerrymandering done by Trump. The Supreme Court's destruction of the Voting Rights act, and Republican dominated state supreme courts putting their thumb on the scale to approve maps in places like Virginia where Democrats not only pass them, but voters approve them. But then allowing discriminatory maps in places like, like Florida and Missouri and Ohio that blatantly violate state constitution. So we know the system is unfair, but it was also unfair in Hungary and voters overcame it. There were 50,000 election monitors in Hungary on the ground to make sure that Orban's party didn't steal the election. I just saw a poll today that black voters named the Supreme Court as their number one threat to democracy, even ahead of Donald Trump. So that's evidence to me, the destruction of the Voting Rights act is motivating people, particularly black voters that are outraged about the revival of Jim Crow, to make sure their votes matter, to make sure their votes count. And so it's terrible what's going on in terms of the voter suppression, in terms of the gerrymandering. But I do think it could have a backlash effect. I do think that people are paying attention and I do think we could see people say, I'm so mad about the efforts to restrict voting rights, I want to make sure that I vote in record numbers like never before in this midterm election.
- [25:52]
Nicole Wallace
All right. Well, we're going to put the two of you on notice that we need you. Let's continue having this conversation. Ari Berman, Mark Elias, thank you so much for starting us off this hour. Tim sticks around. When we come back, ousted Republican Senator John Cornyn says Donald Trump's in for a, quote, miserable two years. Once loyal voters have turned on him, there must see rebukes of the president they voted for. After a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [26:32]
Tim Miller
I voted for Trump all three terms. To be honest with you. I'm not a big supporter of him at this point due to the economy and due to gas prices, due to Epstein files and some other things.
- [26:44]
Nicole Wallace
You said you'd bring down the grocery prices, literally. I must be the most angry person when I grocery shop because I buy the same things every week and I see it jump every week.
- [26:56]
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- [27:01]
Tim Miller
The gutter. The gutter. It's in. It's in the gutter.
- [27:05]
Mark Elias
What would you, if you could talk
- [27:07]
KFC Advertiser
to President Trump directly right now, what would you tell.
- [27:10]
Mark Elias
Do you want me to really say it on air?
- [27:13]
Ari Berman
I said you
- [27:17]
Nicole Wallace
f you and your economy is in the gutter. Those are not my words. Those are not the words of anyone with a Biden or a Harris lawn sign in their yards over the last 10 years. Those are people who voted for Donald Trump 18 months ago. And it is not a good sign when your very recent voters and your political base starts to sound angrier than anyone who thought Democrats should have impeached you. Ms. Now, Alex Tabitt spoke to now ex supporters of Donald Trump's. As anger continues to grow over Donald Trump's second term as president, it's not just his base that's angry, though. Elected Republicans are increasingly finding the, I don't know, spine or something else to break with him publicly over his handling of the economy, his handling of the war in Iran, his handling of the Epstein files, and his insistence on backing candidates in Republican primaries who seem very unlikely to win in November's midterms. Texas Senator John Cornyn sat down with the New York Times after losing the Texas Republican Senate primary. Donald Trump backed his embattled, to put it politely, challenger in that race, Texas's Attorney General, Ken Paxton. Cornyn told the New York Times this, quote, if that's the way friends treat you, you wonder about his enemies, adding, quote, I think it's going to be a pretty bumpy ride for the next seven months. I don't say that with any sort of desire for vengeance. I just think that's the way it's going to be. He's going to have the most miserable two years of his life in the last two years of his term, I think, because I think November is going to be a disaster. Joining our coverage, Media Matters for America President Angelo Carazone. Tim is still here. Tim. I have to sort of put a pin in all my disgust with all these people who are saying now what a lot of us have been saying for a decade. I'll deal with that in therapy. But you do see elected Republicans in public interviews articulating the true political reality, which is sort of the other half of the rigging of the elections. That I think is important because you have to get in front of Trump's own voters that he's cheating because Republicans are telling him he's going to lose in a catastrophic political way.
- [29:41]
Tim Miller
Yeah, well, I'm going to do something nice for you here. It's a Friday. I don't think you got to put a pin in your disgust for John Cornyn. I think that you can embrace that and you can enjoy the schadenfreude and you can continue to mock him for the voters. I get it. I think that's smart and prudent because it's important to win people over. But John Cornyn said he's gonna oppose Trump in that same interview. He was blunt about how Trump's gonna have a bad two years, though. I don't know. I think maybe John Cornyn's misassessing Donald Trump and what he cares about. Donald Trump might have a fine two years just golfing and redesigning the East Wing and building a big arch, and I don't know. We'll see. He's gonna have a bad two years in the traditional political sense. Things that people John Cornyn care about, like they're not gonn in Congress. He's going to get investigated. He won't get impeached again. So I just, I thought it was pretty striking in that Cornyn interview, though, that he says basically, well, you know, now I have a little bit more freedom. But the nice thing about being an ex senator, I'm paraphrasing, but he says this, is that ex senators make more money. And it's just like, it's just so gross. You can see these guys now, they can like say a little bit of truth, right? And they're like, I can get a little bit of distance for Trump. I can pick a couple things now, or I can finally be my own man instead of just being Trump's doorman.
- [31:00]
Nicole Wallace
That.
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Tim Miller
But I can't do too much still because I want to be able to lobby when it's over. I want to be able to make money still after it's over. It's just, you can understand why Donald Trump so easily ran over the husk of the establishment Republican Party. So, look, I think that there's a lot of anger out there. I think there's a lot of things that voters, that Democrats should be able to channel with voters. I mean, you've got Donald Trump's buddy becoming the first trillionaire today, Elon Musk. They're going to have the birthday party for him on the lawn. And all of this out of touch, French Revolution style behavior from Donald Trump, I think will be manna for the Democrats politically. But I'm not expecting much heroism from John Cornyn.
- [31:44]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, well, thank you for that, my friend. That's why we're here.
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- [31:48]
Nicole Wallace
You see me, Angelo, let's go back to the voters. F you. I'm so conflicted about bleeping out and sanitizing anything when it comes to Trump. Right. The conversation inside his coalition is never sanitized inside sort of MAGA media. But for anyone with kids at home, we believe that it's obvious what he was saying. And his own voter describing himself as a three time Trump voter, which means he voted for him 15 months ago, saying the economy is in the gutter, asked to sort of stand by that, he comes back and says, yeah, it's in the gutter. So this is the reality, this is the lived reality for people. Trump used to care about his own voters. You know, he was in a sort of monogamous communication loop with them in the first term. And throughout his four years out of office, he has broken that covenant.
- [32:39]
DSW Advertiser
Right.
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Nicole Wallace
And it seems that the only people he's in a chat with now are people like the guy NPR reported on, the convicted child molester, who somehow knew before Todd Blanche, says he knew about a $1.8 billion slush fund for the insurrectionists. How do you assess the intimacy which used to be really sort of a political phenomenon which has turned into distance between Trump and his voters?
- [33:04]
KFC Advertiser
Yeah, I mean, look, that was a source of his strength. I mean, obviously the apparatus around him that he could use, the media apparatus that he could use to amplify, but his connection to that zeitgeist allowed him to then, you know, amplify stories and messages and sort of capture that gut feeling that then enabled him to build power on what used to be considered the fringes and also pull in people that maybe wouldn't have been there in the first place. So you're right, that is a really important part of this story, and it sort of speaks a lot to what his political power is going to be going forward. And then there's the larger question, which is, what does this mean? And the first thing I'll start with is, and this is where the tension comes in in these discussions, is that. Or at least is that it's true. The regrets are piling up amongst Trump's. Amongst Trump voters, they are just consistently piling up. And we're hearing this in some places of talk radio a little bit here and there, obviously in focus groups and polls. But regrets don't equal defections. And I think sometimes people will say, well, then that it doesn't matter, but it does, because they don't have to defect, they don't have to become Democratic voters for it to make a difference. They just have to be. To not participate and continue to politically support Trump and those that are enabling Trump. And that's an important part of regrets. It makes a really big difference. The other thing that makes a big difference is that is the narrative. That is another piece of Trump's thing. We've talked about this a lot, his narrative dominance. And when you have so much regret amongst Trump voters, amongst MAGA voters, amongst MAGA audience, MAGA media doesn't have a plan. They don't know how to deal with regretful Trump voters. So what they end up doing is ignoring them. And that gets back to the core of your question, which is, what does that do? Well, if you're being ignored, you just get more mad. And then everything that gets said gets further and further detached. That gap becomes wider and wider and wider. This is a trend we've seen going all the way back to the way they handled the Epstein stuff at first they turned a crack into a full blown frisure. And that's the feedback loop that he's in now with his audience. And so these cracks, then these regrets with the audience, they get more mad because Fox and the host, they just ignore them. They make them mad and so does Trump. But then the effect is it just continues to brew up and then the personalities have to start to slowly start to shift. You heard Jesse Waters say something negative about Trump this week. That is insane. That's incredible.
- [35:14]
Zazzle Advertiser
That never happens.
- [35:15]
KFC Advertiser
I'm not gonna give him any credit. That's a big deal though. He's like the sycophants sycophant. I mean, it's, I mean the fact that he was saying something critical and not caveat is a big deal. Cuz it is a small reflection of that audience. Because when Trump's gone, was it these people need jobs. He was criticizing about Iran just like Mark Levin is doing it. And Benny Johnson said the same thing. You know, A month ago, 30 days, Benny Johnson said, don't worry, gas prices are going to be $2 by the midterms. He was heralding Trump's power and his success and his skills. This week, 30 days later, he's saying that he's good, that he was sort of lamenting how bad everything is and saying that, you know, if gas prices do not return to pre war levels as we get closer to the midterms, he's gonn very upset and fearful. That is a big shift to happen in 30 days. Now it's just a one off. These comments themselves don't add up to a lot, but it does have an effect on the larger story that Trump is telling.
- [36:09]
Nicole Wallace
Angelo, I love that you monitor Jesse Waters so that I don't ever have to really feel seen by both of you today. Angelo, thank you for joining us for this. When we come back, it's one of the most sacred places in our country, certainly in Washington D.C. it's the very site where Martin Luther King Jr delivered his iconic I have a dream speech. And we'll tell you what's happening there. Tonight, Donald Trump is transforming the Lincoln Memorial into something pretty gross. We'll tell you about it next.
- [36:52]
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Nicole Wallace
It's a girls girl.
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- [38:24]
Nicole Wallace
this weekend will mark a brand new low for America in the eyes of the world also marks a new low for Donald Trump and his now well documented record of showing disrespect and glee for destroying the country's most iconic and historic symbols and pretty much everything the country has stood for. Trump is hosting a tragically tacky UFC cage match on a massive stage that he constructed on the South Lawn of the White House. We've reported that here on this show late today a federal judge is allowing the fight to proceed. Tonight Donald Trump is kicking things off with a UFC and tomorrow an official weigh in where the fighters have to get on a scale, I guess to make sure they make weight and that'll happen in front of the Lincoln Memorial, the site of Martin Luther King Jr. S iconic I have a Dream speech in one of our nation's most hallowed and storied and visited locations. Bill Kristol writes this in the Bulwark Today about Trump's UFC fight. Quote, I do think it's an event that captures something about this moment in our history. After all, it's vulgar, it is violent, it is commercial, it's grandiose, it's tacky and it dishonors a place once thought worthy of care and respect. In other words, it's Donald Trump. I want to bring in staff writer for the Atlantic, Sally Jenkins. She's covered the importance of sports in American life in the magazine's issue on the country's 250th anniversary. Tim is still with us. Sally, what do you make and what are Americans to make of this event?
- [40:05]
Sally Jenkins
Well, about 30 million Americans watch ultimate fighting. You know, it's an enormously popular. I wouldn't call it a sport. I'm not sure it's a sport when the rules allow for choking an opponent to the point of blackout. You know, one of the things Donald Trump has said about why he likes it so much is because of the. The element of punishment. And I think that. That there's something bigger than mere dishonor going on here. I mean, I think that. That unfortunately, there's a taste for this stuff. And I think that one of the things that the Trump administration likes to do is to sort of raise the threshold over and over and over again. And so, you know, it's a tried and true sports strategy to commit so many fouls that the referees can't call them all. I mean, that's a little bit of what we're seeing here, I think, Tim,
- [40:53]
Nicole Wallace
it is like every chapter of the Trump story. He goes to UFC fights, and a lot of people are happy to see him there, but he takes everything to sort of the perverted extreme in erecting a cage match, a cage, an octagon. I still don't understand exactly what it is that he's built on the South Lawn of the White House. And sort of perverting all of these spaces that used to represent the whole country was something that's very specific to his taste.
- [41:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's the claw. I think it used to be the beta stage and at a music event. I don't know, something to that effect. I think that's appropriate. Look, Bill's article at the Bulwark this morning. I ask people to read because he was so good on this, and he brings in the historical perspective and the manner in which this is vulgar and the manner with which this insults all the public servants and leaders have come before it. And I'm not sure how much more I can add to that. It's gross, and I think it's corrupt, I guess would be the thing that I would add to it. It's not just the vulgarity, but it's the corruption. And Dana White, the head of ufc, was a supporter of Trump's got to speak at the convention. This is unbelievable publicity. There are brand sponsors on the White House lawn, and all of it is a perfect encapsulation of the Trump era with the corruption and the vulgarity. I would add one caveat, I think, though, to my Democratic friends, I do want to say this, which is you would never do things exactly like Trump, and I would never call for it. But I do think it's important to have fun in politics. And I think that sometimes as we head into a weekend, I'm going into pride weekend here in New Orleans, I'm going to go have fun after this. And I think that we can criticize them and mock them, but sometimes I think they can veer into wagging your finger at people and saying, don't have fun. And I don't think that served the pro democracy movement that well. So I think that I hold those two thoughts together while fearing for the direction of our democracy.
- [42:54]
Nicole Wallace
Well, here in New York, everyone is off to watch the Knicks this weekend. I mean, Sally, I guess it's important, and I should have been more specific. It's not just about a sporting event at the White House. It's about the completely corrupt nature of this one. I mean, this is for profit. Donald Trump didn't pay for it out of his personal riches and invite the countries underprivileged, who happen to be UFC fans, he is grifting off the entire event.
- [43:20]
Sally Jenkins
Right. I mean, there's crypto.com literally on the steps mounting up to the stage. There's sponsor logos all over the claw and the stage itself. And yes, Tim is right. Dana White is an old, old, old ally going back to the 1980s when Donald Trump was running casinos. Donald Trump was hosting Ultimate Fighting events at a time when they were illegal in most states and John McCain was trying to have them federally outlawed.
- [43:46]
Tim Miller
So.
- [43:47]
Sally Jenkins
And yes, the question of whether the President is profiting off of this event is a big one that needs some, some getting to the bottom of for certain. I also, you know, this is an event with. That's based on no rules. Okay. And so the appropriateness of that is one question. Certainly there don't seem to be any economic rules with this, with this White House, you know, and to pick up on one thing Tim said, there have been hijinks on the South Lawn of the White House before. I mean, the Lincoln Boys ran pet goats all over the place and George W. Bush had horseshoes and T ball games out there. I mean, it is supposed to be a place to have some fun at the White House. That is true.
- [44:30]
Nicole Wallace
I was there for the T ball. Nobody sold sponsorships and nobody had the military measure their bicep to waist ratio or whatever ridiculous body type had to be met for the military to attend. Sally Jenkins, thank you for joining our conversation. Tim Miller, thank you for spending the hour with us. One more break. We'll be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People podcast is independent journalist Don Lemon. This is one of my favorite conversations I've had since we launched the podcast podcast exactly one year ago. We talked about everything in extremely blunt terms, including the future of cnn, Barry Weiss's potential leadership of it, striking out on his own as an independent journalist, and how he sees the Trump story and the people around Donald Trump. Right now. You can listen to the whole episode right now. If you are a premium subscriber, it drops tonight. You scan the QR code to sign up for full access. The episode will be available to everybody first thing Monday morning. One more break. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.
- [45:55]
Zazzle Advertiser
The most memorable gifts aren't found, they're made. Zazzle is a custom marketplace where you pick any product, a mug, a card, a tote, a phone case, and make it personal. A photo, a name, an inside joke.
- [46:09]
Sally Jenkins
Joke.
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Zazzle Advertiser
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