“Trump’s war on truth”

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: “Trump’s war on truth”
Host: Nicolle Wallace (MS NOW)
Date: June 22, 2026

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Overview

This episode explores Donald Trump’s ongoing conflict with the press, his disregard for factual reporting, and the implications for American democracy and global stability. Host Nicolle Wallace and a panel of experienced political and military analysts—Tom Nichols, Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, and former Senator Claire McCaskill—discuss the dangers of Trump’s “war on truth,” the impact of the Iran war, the fracturing of the Republican political coalition, and the new energy among Democratic leaders and voters. The episode also highlights how adversaries are exploiting America’s internal divisions, the shifting dynamics of political alliances, and the urgent need to defend democratic institutions and norms.

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Main Themes & Key Insights

1. Trump’s Escalating War on Truth

• Obsessed with Image: Trump’s focus on self-image has driven his approach to the media and public discourse, escalating his fight with the First Amendment to dangerous new lows.
• Attack on Press: Trump lashed out at The New York Times for a factual analysis of the Iran conflict, denouncing their reporting as “treason” (a capital crime) and threatening further lawsuits.
  • “All Donald Trump cares about is how he looks in the stories about the war with Iran and controlling the narrative to make himself look good, not even clear what that means anymore…” – Nicolle Wallace [05:05]
• Deliberate Disregard for Facts: Trump equates any bad news with lies, reshaping reality to fit his narrative: “A man who only believes good things about him to be true, and anything else that is true about him must be a lie.” – Nicolle Wallace [05:34]

2. Asymmetrical Warfare and American Vulnerabilities

• Military Not Enough: Adversaries now use asymmetric strategies—targeting America’s societal cohesion, institutions, and alliances rather than direct military confrontation.
  • “The defining lesson of modern asymmetric warfare may be that America’s adversaries have stopped trying to defeat us where we’re strongest. Instead, they seek to weaken the relationships, confidence, cohesion, institutions, and even the government that amplifies American power.” – Lt. Gen. Hertling [08:26]
• Trump’s Damaging Diplomatic Moves: The Iran war has permanently harmed American alliances and global standing, per McCaskill and Hertling.
  • “The permanent damage that the Iran war has done to our relationships… hurting our standing. That is where the most damage has been done…” – Claire McCaskill [06:53]
• Delusional Leadership: Trump’s unwillingness to listen or accept facts further undermines US strength.
  • “Donald Trump simply refuses to accept [facts]. He thinks if he goes out and says, ‘nuclear weapon, I’ve solved everything, the world is safer. I’m fantastic,’ that millions will go along with that. The Iranians have figured out that millions of Americans will not.” – Tom Nichols [14:36]

3. Domestic Political Fallout

• Republican Defections & Fractures: Increasing defections from Trump’s coalition suggest limits to his “war on truth” and manipulation of the narrative.
  • “Polling numbers show that the majority of the country is rejecting his stilted version of the world…” – Claire McCaskill [06:26]
• Tucker Carlson’s Break: Carlson declares he can’t support the GOP, signaling cracks in the MAGA alliance.
  • “I would not support the Republican Party. There’s no chance I would support the Republican Party…they’re not loyal to the United States…” – Pablo Torre, quoting Carlson [19:48]
• Republican Survival Instincts: Discussion of JD Vance and Marco Rubio jockeying as Trump’s position weakens.
  • “Marco is maybe standing by and the president looking awkward, but he’s grinning inside.” – Claire McCaskill [17:18]

4. The Democratic Response: Energy, Organization, and Institutional Defense

• Voter Enthusiasm: New primary data reveals historic turnout and momentum among Democrats.
  • “In more than 90% of Democratic House primaries held this year, voters cast more ballots than they did during 2022.” – Nicolle Wallace [29:28]
• Energizing the Base: Leaders like Gov. Wes Moore highlight concrete achievements and readiness to defend democracy.
  • “We’re actually working on delivering for the people of our jurisdictions. And they’re seeing that as a stark contrast from the type of actions and slash inactions that they’re seeing from Washington.” – Wes Moore [31:42]
• Fighting Back on Redistricting & Voter Suppression: Moore discusses steps in Maryland to counter Republican gerrymandering and resist DOJ attempts to access voter files.
  • “…inaction and doing nothing is not a viable alternative.” – Wes Moore [34:31]
  • On DOJ lawsuits: “It’s not just unwise what they’re doing. It is illegal.” – Wes Moore [37:21]
• Maintaining Broad Appeal: McCaskill challenges the “split” narrative in the Democratic Party, predicting unity in the face of existential threats to democracy.
  • “When all the dust is settled after the primaries, I think the Democrats are going to come together in a very strong way…” – Claire McCaskill [41:12]

5. Global Perceptions and America’s Standing

• America on the World Stage: The episode touches on how Trump’s approach has compromised America’s moral authority and global relationships.
  • “A compliant autocracy…willing to do business with the most corrupt governing body on planet earth—in sports, which is FIFA.” – Pablo Torre [43:12]
• Erosion of Democratic Norms: Attacks on election workers, threats to First Amendment rights, and normalized corruption are highlighted as severe dangers.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s Reality Distortion:

  • “Just remember what you’re seeing and what you’re reading is not what’s happening.” – Nicolle Wallace, quoting Trump’s infamous 2017 statement [05:44]

• On the Damage to Institutions:

  • “Alliances don’t like those kind of things. So we have taken a devolution in our standing…” – Lt. Gen. Hertling [26:09]

• On Delusional Leadership:

  • “In the past, Trump has tried to conjure new circumstances by speaking them out loud and attempting to wish them into existence… Now I think he’s deluded.” – Tom Nichols [12:08]

• On Defending Democratic Process:

  • “It is something that the Constitution lays out is a state function. You know, I’m the chief executive of the state of Maryland and we have an independent election commission… So neither should the President of the United States…” – Wes Moore [37:43]

• On Essential Unity:

  • “That power will not come just by punching back them in the face. The power will come by winning elections.” – Claire McCaskill [41:12]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• [01:02–05:38] — Nicolle Wallace’s opening monologue on Trump’s war with the press
• [06:25] — Claire McCaskill on political exhaustion and the real-world damage to alliances
• [09:04] — Lt. Gen. Hertling explains asymmetric warfare and American vulnerabilities
• [11:11] — Tom Nichols on Trump’s delusions and governance failures
• [16:11] — McCaskill on J.D. Vance’s political troubles and GOP maneuvering
• [20:58] — Nichols and panel discuss Tucker Carlson, anti-Semitism, and the MAGA crack-up
• [22:51] — Wallace and Hertling on the weaponization of “treason” and asymmetrical threats
• [29:28] — Data: Democratic primary turnout and redistricting
• [30:53–36:02] — Interview with Gov. Wes Moore on party energy, legislative fights, and democracy
• [36:18–39:52] — Moore on resisting DOJ voter suppression and current political “vibes”
• [43:12] — Pablo Torre on global perceptions of America’s conduct

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Conclusion

The episode paints a stark picture of Trump’s unprecedented assault on truth, democratic norms, and international standing. Experts warn that his approach enables foreign adversaries and weakens vital institutions. However, growing Democratic enthusiasm and leadership—embodied by figures like Wes Moore—signals a vigorous defense of democracy and a renewed push for accountability and real-world results. Amid threats to American norms, the episode underscores unity, turnout, and clear-eyed vigilance as the nation’s best hope for a democratic future.

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Transcript

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[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

We knocked out everything. Now some of the fake news would say, oh, we didn't do it fast enough. You're from abc, you're fake news.

[Military Analyst (Lieutenant General Mark Hertling)]

Go ahead.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

The fake news media treats me very, very badly. Look at all the fake news back there.

[Governor Wes Moore]

What?

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

That's a lot of fake news. The news, the fake news has no credibility.

[Military Analyst (Lieutenant General Mark Hertling)]

You know who's drunk of the big game?

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

The fake news media. Hi again Everybody. It's now five o'clock in the east. As long as Donald Trump has been in the public eye, Donald Trump has been obsessed with how he's seen by the public and through that he sees himself and how he's covered by the press. As thin skinned and narcissistic as they come, Donald Trump is taking his decades long war with the First Amendment to new lows. Today, a battle that started with smearing journalists as enemies of the people culminated over the weekend with a comical but dangerous war on the truth. In the same way, Donald Trump is going after people who exposed his no big contracts and failed refurbishments of the Reflecting Pool. He's doing that now with the press who dare to cover the debacle with Iran accurately. Last night he went on a tirade against journalists at the New York Times, calling out a news analysis piece with the title, quote, unquote, what changed after almost four months of war? Analysts say not much. Here's a little bit of what is in that piece of reporting. Quote, neither the war nor the agreement ended what U.S. and Israeli officials regard as the main threats emanating from Iran. That country's nuclear program, while heavily damaged, was not eliminated, its fate punted to future negotiation. The same goes for its ballistic missiles, which the deal does not address. By Saturday, even the most significant immediate result of the deal, Iran's reopening of the Strait of Hormuz, which Trump had identified as essential, seemed at risk. End quote. Trump had his usual criticisms of that piece of analysis by saying it was fake and corrupt, but then went further than that, accusing the New York Times of, quote, treason. Treason is a crime punishable by death, and then said he would add this reporting to his already existing lawsuit against the New York Times. Now, nothing that they reported in that segment I read you. Has been disproven by the Trump administration. But what's on display here is that facts don't matter to Trump. He's a man who only believes good things about him to be true, and anything else that is true about him must be a lie. It's an extremely dangerous trait to have in any human being that anyone's in a relationship with, but absolutely, absolutely unprecedented in any sort of leader or public official, because this is not a real estate deal that you can just, you know, change the numbers on or a new golf course opening or a party at Mar a Lago. This is a war with another nation. Thirteen members of the US Military have died. More lives are at stake. The global economy hangs in the balance, and a country's nuclear future will be determined. That's why it's such a big deal. That's why it's covered the way it's covered, accurately, aggressively. All Donald Trump cares about is how he looks in the stories about the war with Iran and controlling the narrative to make himself look good, not even clear what that means anymore, with his own coalition turning so dramatically against the war. And Trump couldn't care less what is actually true. We mentioned in the last hour his public declaration to his supporters. It happened in the year 2017. He told them to ignore the truth. And that statement remains as significant and frightening today as it did when he first uttered it. Just remember what you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening. I think the context there was tariffs, but you could now take that and lay it over tariffs and the war in Iran and the Reflecting Pool and the Dead Duck and on and on and on. Donald Trump's ongoing war against the truth and why it matters to every one of us is where we begin the hour with some of our Favorite experts and friends. Staff writer at the Atlantic, Tom Nichols is here. He's a professor emeritus of national security affairs at the U.S. naval College, Naval War College. Also joining U.S. military analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertlingsbach. He served as the commanding General of the U.S. army in Europe. Also joining U.S. political analyst former Senator Claire McCaskill is here. Claire, I want to start with you and the political pushback to someone so addicted to lies. We've talked a lot about his coalition, but I want to talk about the other side for once, because what seems interesting to me is that you have high level defections from Trump that show that this strategy had a ceiling and a floor. And I wonder what you think that presents in terms of opportunities for the other side, Democrats and pro democracy advocates and independents and literally Everybody else, the 69% of Americans who aren't approving of the job Trump's doing as president.

[Former Senator Claire McCaskill]

Well, it all, it's very, you know, first of all, it's exhausting for everyone, especially people who are paying close attention. It's very exhausting. The polling numbers show that the majority of the country is rejecting his stilted version of the world, his false information that he puts out on a daily basis. And he is like in a hole and he can't quit digging. So really, the Democrats just need to keep stressing the things that people really care about. And Trump is kind of making it worse every day. And I listen, I read Mark's article in the Bulwark about the Iran war and it is so insightful. And he's right. We talk about asymmetrical warfare all the time and nobody knows what it means. This is a classic example of asymmetrical warfare. And what he stresses in that article that's so important that Trump has done and what most Americans don't realize he has done is the permanent damage that the Iran war has done to our relationships, to our relationships with the good guys and the way he has handled himself with Putin and Xi and Kim Jong Un. This is all about hurting our relationships with the good guys in the world, hurting our standing. That is where the most damage has been done, as Mark did a brilliant job of pointing out in his article today. And I certainly hope I know you guys are going to talk about it, but I had to jump in there and praise it because I want everybody to read it that is paying attention because it's incredibly important, the things he talks about. It is a new world when it comes to military success because of the success of asymmetrical warfare by Putin in Ukraine and interfering in elections. And now with this debacle in Iran.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

General Hartling, I'll read from your piece, which Claire has set up perfectly for us. Quote, one thing is clear. Most of America's adversaries have largely concluded that defeating the United States militarily is unlikely. Because of that, decades ago, they began shifting the competition toward the very things that make American power effective. The defining lesson of modern asymmetric warfare may be that America's adversaries have stopped trying to defeat us where we're strongest. Instead, they seek to weaken the relationships, confidence, cohesion, institutions, and even the government that amplifies American power. Explain.

[Military Analyst (Lieutenant General Mark Hertling)]

It's interesting. I got my first swipe at this, Nicole, back in 1998 when, when I was in the War College, the kind of place that Tom teaches at. And first, I ought to say thank you to my former Missouri senator and current only cardinal fan on Ms. Now, but we're the only two holding up that particular banner. But what I'd say is I got my first taste of this in China. I was there in 1998. We were at the Chinese War College in Nanjing, and we asked them about what their operational exercise was in the War College. And the answer we got was they were portraying a reaptake of Desert Storm, but they were playing the Iraqis to defeat the Americans, and they were using methods that the Iraqis had not used in that particular conflict. And what we've since come to know, those as are asymmetric approaches. And it's the application of strategy, tactics, capabilities and methods to negate an opponent's strength while exposing his weaknesses. This is what we're seeing going on in Iran right now. You know, some people think asymmetric attacks are like the planes on 911 or the IEDs in Iraq and Afghanistan. But this is a pretty large example of asymmetric warfare. And it seems like people like Secretary Hegseth, the president, don't value places like the War College, where Tom taught for so many years to talk about how military operations are evolving for the future. If we don't get it right, it's going to come back to haunt us. You can have the greatest military in the world, but if you don't do the other things that our government needs to do, you're going to be evaluated on how poor you are as a nation and how you're not coming together and other nations are going to threaten you. And in a world of complex threats, it puts us in a really bad position.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Tom, this all the general's piece and your piece as well. I think if people really stop and linger on it, it's perhaps the most harrowing look at Donald Trump. So I want to add your analysis to this conversation. Then we'll take it from there. You write this in the past, Trump has tried to conjure new circumstances by speaking them out loud and attempting to wish them into existence. His tired garble in France, however, is something different. It suggests that Trump more than ever is unable to fathom what is happening in the world around him and has been reduced to turning all of his previous statements upside down. A regime that was once the epitome of evil is now a reasonable partner. Nuclear material that once represented an existential threat to America might now sit in Iran forever. Syria and Iran and Israel and Lebanon will now do things that they would never do just because he wants them to. This is something that comes through in some of the Reporting and Regime Change, the new book by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan, where he's got and I wondered this around the time of the State of the Union when he kept talking about how hot the country was and his economic numbers have been in a precipitous slide since Independence Day, the big tariff unveil. Before the war in Iran, his numbers were cratering on the economy and thus overall because of the tariff regime. And I wondered, I said, I wonder what kind of information he's getting. Regime change reports out that he's got this person who sits there and finds like very obscure little corners of posts from people that aren't even right wing journalists, which used to be sort of his happy place and they are creating this artificial reality for him. So when you hear him say our country's so hot, I always, I used to think he was lying. Now I think he's deluded. And your piece pulls this onto the world stage. Talk about the delusions of Donald Trump as sort of a threat to global stability.

[Staff Writer Tom Nichols]

Delusion is the word I was going to use when you were asking about this because he is self deluded. I have said many times on this show that I think his cognitive abilities are decaying rapidly. But he has people around him who have spoken the truth to him, at least before this war was launched. And he doesn't want to hear it. I mean, now we're just seeing a more extreme version of the problem that Donald Trump has always been uneducable and unbreakable. He doesn't listen. He's a narcissist. You can't tell a narcissist that they're wrong about something when they've decided that they're right. And, you know, I really appreciate Mark shouting out the war colleges here because our enemies have figured out something that we used to teach all the time, which is the relationship between the government, the army, and the people. Donald Trump is obsessed with the military. He thinks as long as the military's strong, it can do anything, can work miracles. But war is a cooperative effort and a joint or a unified effort to between the people, the civilians, their uniform military, the government that leads them. And our enemies have figured something out that we rely too much on military excellence, which is a great thing to have. But if you don't have the people behind you, if you don't have a unified government that knows what it wants to do, then in the end, you've blown up a lot of stuff. But they're striking back at things that we care about. And, you know, frankly, the Iranians broke the code on this, that two months of high gas prices, you know, was going to hurt us more than depleting our stocks. I mean, they knew something about us. That Donald Trump. This goes back to your question about delusions that Donald Trump simply refuses to accept. He thinks if he goes out and says, nuclear weapon, I've solved everything, the world is safer. I'm fantastic that millions of Americans will go along with that. The Iranians have figured out that millions of Americans will not go along with that. And now we're in the situation where he feels like he has to end this war and get out of it at any cost. And unfortunately, it seems like that's exactly what he's doing, is being willing to pay almost any cost just to get out of this mess now.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Well, what's interesting about the Iranians is that they would not have as much power if Donald Trump hadn't surrounded himself with such feckless people. You know, their operations against Pete Hegseth, these Lego videos, where they go after things that are publicly known. I mean, they exploit what is in the public record about the weaknesses of all the people around Donald Trump. And what makes it so fascinating to me is that they've obviously determined that J.D. vance is disposable. So they've sent J.D. vance into the breach. And I wonder, Claire, what you think comes back,

[Former Senator Claire McCaskill]

well, he's in trouble. JD's in trouble. First of all, what's sad to me is he had a press conference today where he was bragging about the International Atomic Regulatory folks coming back to Iran to check to see what's going on with their nuclear program. All he's announcing is they're going to do what Obama accomplished with the jcpoa. This is what Obama got done. The only thing he's bragging about is we're going to bring back what we tore up. We kicked the inspectors out of Iran. Iran didn't do it. We did it by tearing up that agreement. And then he has a press conference knowing that most people in America won't know that, trying to pretend that they have somehow accomplished anything. So he's bragging about bringing back inspectors they kicked out. And secondly, they're bragging about opening the Straits of Hormuz, which they caused to be closed. And that's it.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Right.

[Former Senator Claire McCaskill]

And gas prices are still high. Everybody's still in trouble in terms of their monthly bills. Health care is through the roof. And so I really do think that as every day goes on, JD Is in more and more trouble. And Marco is maybe standing by and the president looking awkward, but he's grinning inside.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

We'll see. I mean, we'll see how wide the blast radius is of the political slop. And to that end, when we come back, we'll talk about how the Iran war has shattered Donald Trump's political coalition. Tucker Carlson, for his part, is done with the Republican Party. So he says. We'll get to that reporting next. Also ahead, Democrats are gaining steam in key races across our country. They're also standing up to Donald Trump and the Republican Party and their push to rig the midterms. We'll tell you about that. One of the party's brightest stars, a new generation of leaders. Maryland's Governor Westmore will be our guest on how his party is fighting back and energizing voters all across our country. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Political Commentator Pablo Torre]

I would not support the Republican Party. There's no chance I would support the Republican Party. How could I or any American voter support a political party that's not loyal to the United States, that puts the interests of a foreign country above those of its own citizens? Like that's, that's, you know, it's not possible to vote for people like that. And I'm not going to. There's no defending this because it's immoral and it's exactly the opposite of what a political party in a democracy is charged with doing, which is representing its own voters, its own citizens, its own nation. And they're not doing that. So no, I'm out. And if I'm out, then I think a lot of other people are out.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Again, the decision to platform Tucker Carlson isn't one I take lightly. And if he's out, the point I think is that so are many of his followers because he's in a for profit media relationship with his listeners and viewers, a subscription service. And so I wonder, Tom Nichols, what you make of whether that indicates something about the MAGA coalition to Claire's point, that if JD's out, then Rubio's in? I'm not sure.

[Staff Writer Tom Nichols]

Well, let's not, you know, read too much into Tucker Carlson because he didn't have any problem with the Republican Party when it was bending the knee for a foreign power as long as the foreign power was Russia. So, you know, this is about embracing that, that ever widening streak of anti Semitism that's overtaking the gop. And so I, you know, I think on this Carlson is becoming kind of political nihilist to say that, you know, nobody gets it except me, which is great for branding for his show. But as far as, you know, Claire's point about if not JD then Marco, look, the Republican Party isn't going anywhere. They're going to have a fight for the nomination in 2028. And I think I Kind of laughed when Claire says, but I have to agree with her, I think, Mark, I was asked in another context today, someone said, where's Marco? And I said, standing in the back with a big smile on his face, you know, while JD Gets out there and has to, you know, take. Take the hit for this. So, you know, does that mean, I mean, a lot of Tucker's people are not the most reliable voters. You know, he. This is a fandom issue, but also this is not about some principle where they're going to leave because the Republican Party no longer serves American interests. They've had. That whole group has had no problem with the Republican Party serving foreign interests under Trump when it comes to places like Russia. So I'm not sure. I think that the Republican Party itself, will it hurt them for voters in the midterms and in 28, perhaps. But in the end, you know, I think most of those voters are going to realize they have nowhere else to go if they were going to vote at all.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

My thoughts about Carlson were around regrets he may feel about being part of Trump's war on the First Amendment. I mean, he's going to really need his First Amendment rights if he's going to wage this campaign as whatever he is. I agree. Nihilist is a good description. Tapping into this anti Semitic streak at a time when Trump is waging a war against the First Amendment could create some interesting cross pressures for people who were once his stalwart allies. These are Trump's legal efforts, financial ones, against news organizations. He refiled a $15 billion defamation lawsuit against the New York Times on Thursday against the Times and several of its reporters. He's accused that news organization of seeking to undermine his 2024 candidacy and disparaging his reputation as a businessman. He named the journalist Sue Craig as someone who's familiar to all my viewers who covered his company's finances and the lack of taxes he'd paid. He is an open war against accurate coverage of the war with Iran. When a lot of what people know about his erratic conduct is from his own postings where he says peace is close, for some reason, the markets agree with him. They go up, and then he threatens to start bombing people, quote, on their heads. Again, General Hartling to your piece about the asymmetry of it all, it seems that exploiting our political divisions is something that Russia may have pioneered in 2016, but our subsequent adversaries are really fine tuning now.

[Military Analyst (Lieutenant General Mark Hertling)]

Yeah, the Russian little green men, the asymmetric warfare they used, that was the beginning of some interesting dynamics. And I think all of us in the military started watching that very closely, the so called gray zone fight, which has received a lot of desultory comments. But what we're seeing now is something very different. Nicole, going back to the beginning of this segment when you were talking about treason, I mean, that really gets to something that Tom just said, and that is President Trump doesn't like to be critiqued at all. And yet there are so many things to critique and, and to offer advice. But the people who are in there as his advisors either are not doing it or they're afraid to do it or they're not being listened to. You know, and one of the things, if I can, when I was commanding in Europe and traveling around to the 49 different countries that were in Europe, and here's a little dirty little secret, we used to measure their capability literally on an order to merit list from 1 to 49. And it was based on not just the strength of their military, but their government institutions, how they adhered to the rule of law, who were the elected officials and what expertise did they have. What was the connection between the military and the government, as Tom and Claire were both saying earlier. And as a former commander, I could evaluate that. That's why when Russia invaded Ukraine, there were many of us that saying they're not going anywhere because they might have a big army, but it sucks and their government is bad and their people don't support it. Those are the kind of things you evaluate when you look at the strength of a nation and then some. And again, President Trump seems to think it's all about the military and he can do anything he want. And if they don't open the strait, then he's going to drop bombs on their heads again. One of the things too, as part of that evaluation is the confidence in your alliances. And we've got a president that's not only assaulting the prime minister of Italy, he's also giving notice of what's going on with the prime minister of the UK before he's able to announce his resignation from the office. Alliances don't like those kind of things. So we have taken a devolution in our standing. I would guess if there are other countries doing the same things we did to them, I would say we've probably slipped quite a bit because of the dysfunction in our government and in our institutions.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

And just, I mean, I remember looking at the I'm so old that I remember when elections ended and Republican staffers used to go to young democracies and help them with their elections. We now have the need to protect our election workers because Trump is attacking them. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling Tom Nichols this is a conversation that is very much to be continued. Thank you for starting us off this hour. Today. Claire sticks around a little bit longer when she and I come back. There is big energy and big vibes among Democrats and Democratic voters are saying so as a new generation of leaders looks to fight off threats to our democracy by Republicans and Donald Trump. One of those leaders is Maryland's Governor Westmore. He'll be our next guests. Don't go anywhere.

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[Staff Writer Tom Nichols]

Why have I asked my electrician I

[Governor Wes Moore]

found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster? I was so moved by how carefully

[Staff Writer Tom Nichols]

he buried my electrical wires, I knew

[Governor Wes Moore]

I could trust him to bury my sweet nibbles after his untimely end.

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[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

New data collected by the Washington Post highlights a major enthusiasm gap between the two political parties. And if early voting turnout data is an indicator, it reiterates the feeling that Americans nationwide have had enough. They are fed up with what they're seeing from Donald Trump and his MAGA Republicans. In more than 90% of Democratic House primaries held this year, voters cast more ballots than they did during 2022. In 2022, Republicans flipped the House. So far this year, people cast 12.6 million ballots in Democratic House primaries compared to 8.6 million in GOP primaries. Washington Post's report also highlights how Republican efforts to rig the midterms through a mid decade redistricting campaign may also be backfiring. Post reports this quote, Democrats received a majority of votes in the primaries for three of the five districts redrawn in Texas to benefit Republicans. The share of ballots cast for Republicans in primaries grew in two of them. In California, where voters approved a new congressional map designed to net five seats for Democrats, redistricting appears to be paying off. In each of the five new blue leaning districts, the share of ballots cast for Democrats exceeded the number cast in the 2022 primaries. Joining our coverage of all this is Maryland's Governor Wes Moore. Governor, thank you for being here.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Thanks so much for having me.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

I wanted to get your take on something that I think people cover as sort of a soft art as opposed to hard polling data and turnout. And that's the vibe shift. Donald Trump has obviously given Democrats a lot of opportunities, but a lot of polling and political horse race reporting suggested, well, Democrats have their problems. Democrats seem to have been throwing the better party. They seem to have broadened their tent in all the ways that pundits and analysts wanted them to. It's now the party of David Jolly running for governor in Florida and Mayor Mamdani in New York City. And I wonder what you make of, of where Democrats are in terms of taking this Democratic Party, this brand to the voters and really yielding big wins and results in November and beyond?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Well, I think what people are seeing was that, you know, they were told by the president that he would focus on things like bringing prices down and releasing the Epstein files and, and being able to keep us out of foreign wars. And they've seen that everything he has said the opposite has happened. And I think the thing that we've been really focused on, I know here in Maryland is making sure we're actually delivering on our promises and not turning our backs on them where, you know, where while we are seeing the type of, you know, the type of backtracking from the White House that in the state of Maryland we've been able to add over 55,000 new businesses, small and large businesses that were having the fastest increase in population in Maryland that we have seen in a decade, that we've been able to have the fastest drops in violent crime amongst the fastest drops anywhere in the United States of America that we've been able to give a tax cut to the middle class and raise the minimum wage for our people. So we're actually working on delivering for the people of our jurisdictions. And they're seeing that as a stark contrast from the type of actions and slash inactions that they're seeing from Washington,

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

D.C. the Republicans seem to be somewhat cognizant of this, at least in a reptilian sort of political survival mode, which many people think is behind the efforts to rig the midterms. And there are two developments in your state I want to ask you about. One is Democrats in the legislature appear to be moving forward with something that last time we talked wasn't really in focus and that is redoing your maps. What do you know about that and do you support it?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I do. And I'm very encouraged by the movement that we have seen. You know, we know for us, our House of Delegates has already voted on this. They've already voted and they passed and they passed maps where we saw the stall was in, was in the Maryland Senate. Now looks like, as we've heard from the Senate president, that they are moving. And that is very encouraging because it's just the same thing that I have been saying since January that we are watching a unique threat to our democracy that is taking place in broad daylight. And when I consider, and when I think about what people who came before us, how they had to fight and bleed in order to give us the right to vote, we saw what they were willing to do to give us the right to vote. Now they are looking down at us and they're asking us now, what are you willing to do to keep it? And that is why I just think when we are watching the type of assaults on democracy that we are seeing from the president of the United States, where he is doing things, you know, such as trying to eliminate mail in balloting, which is illegal, when he's trying to do things like talking about putting federal troops and federal agents around ballot boxes, which is voter suppression. And when you're talking about saying the Republican states should do mid decade redistricting when Democratic states should just sit on their hands, you know, I have said I refuse to be punched in the face while I'm sitting on my hands. And that's why I think this is, this is a statement we're ready to make here in Maryland.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Is it fair? Complete? Do you need to call special session? Have you done that? Will you do that?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Yeah. So we're working with, with leaders in both the House and the Senate and The plan that we have is that post the primary that Maryland lawmakers will be coming back and we will then be going through the process of determining what this is going to look like. And I'm very clear, I'm not dogmatic about this. But what I am saying is inaction and doing nothing is not a viable alternative.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Are you looking to Governor Newsom, successful Prop 50 in California, where, I mean, California voters had weighed in on this and they were not interested in redoing their maps. But as a reaction to the rigging that the Republicans did in Texas, they went in to level the playing field. And that was the message around it. Is that your message to your constituents?

[Governor Wes Moore]

No. Well, you know, one, I know that every state is going to be different. California is gonna be different from Virginia, which is going to be different from, from Maryland. And so this is something that has to go in front of our, our General assembly and our general. And our General assembly will be able to determine what that, what that structure is going to look like. But the thing that we, we also know is that getting the voice of the people does matter in all of this. And the reason that we are, you know, that we're talking about moving is not because it's, it's modeling off of another state. It's. I'm looking at what is happening when your democracy is under assault right in front of your face and the people are asking, what are we going to do about it? And I just think there needs to be a response and not just simply saying, well, you know, it's unfortunate the way things are turning out.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Well, and that's certainly where Democratic voters are. They're looking for the fighters, and this is a fight they seem enthusiastic for. I want to ask you about the fight with the Department of Justice over the state's voter rolls. I have to sneak in a break before I do that. Will you stick around to the other side?

[Governor Wes Moore]

Of course.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

All right. Well, I'll be. We'll be right back. We're back with Maryland's Governor Westmore. Governor, let me read you this story. We cover the weaponization of DOJ more closely than perhaps any other story. And this is an astounding record of defeats. This morning, a federal judge in Maryland handed DOJ its ninth defeat in a series of 31 cases the Department has filed to gain access to state voter files. DOJ has yet to win a single one. The court wrote that it, quote, joins every court to have addressed this issue in concluding that a state voter file is not a record or paper that A state must produce to the United States. I know this is a little inside insight, but in terms of the Trump administration's efforts to rig the midterms, this is absolutely essential to them. What is your sense of how seriously the Trump DOJ threatens the personal voter information of your constituents in Maryland?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I think they definitely attempt to threaten it. But the reason that I am so encouraged by what we saw today is it's showing that it's not just unwise what they're doing. It is illegal. They are not authorized to have, you know, have, you know, redacted voter files. There's no reason for them to have it. That is something that the Constitution lays out is a state function. You know, I'm the chief executive of the state of Maryland and we have an independent election commission right now in the state of Maryland. I cannot ask them to break the law. So neither should the presidents of the United States that they. We are responsible in making sure that we can have free and fair and safe elections within our state. It is something that we are very proud of inside of the state of Maryland, that for all eligible voters, their votes will be casted, their votes will be protected, and their votes will be heard, and that we will have this, a peaceful transition of power and all democratic values will surround our elections. And so regardless of what the President of the United States is trying to do, and I'm encouraging that also with all of our other governors. Remember, it's governors, it's, it's attorneys general, it is secretaries of state and its independent voter commissions. They are in charge of our elections, not the Presidents of the United States.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

What is. I know you're out on the campaign trail in high demand. What are you hearing around the country? What is your sense of the vibes of the country right now?

[Governor Wes Moore]

I think people are looking for fighters. I think people understand the type of threat that we are under. If you look at my state, you know We've had over 31,000 Marylanders fired in the process of the past year, federal workers. That is more than any state inside this country. We have seen how in our state, we have watched how energy prices have spiked, that in our state, we've seen how inflation are now at a. It is at a three year high. We have seen how we're now paying $200 billion for a war that nobody understands what it is that we're doing. We've lost over a dozen service members inside this country. And I think people are frustrated and they're angry and I think people want people who can not just fight, but deliver that people who are not just pushing back on Trump, but pushing forward and showing what an alternative looks like. It's why we feel very strong and confident in our election prospects. And I know, you know, we're up for reelection in November, but I know that there is an energy that people are feeling right now who don't just appreciate people who are showing that the president is not in charge of everything, but also showing that we have an opportunity to demonstrate what right is supposed to look like.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Thank you for taking some time to field our questions about all this, all these wild headlines. Governor Westmore, thank you.

[Governor Wes Moore]

Thank you so much,

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Claire. Let me bring you back in on this. These sort of twin tensions, right? The people in a fighter, they're also, I mean, I feel like you wrestle with this tension all the time. Having been elected and sort of successfully represented the heartland, they want to be reassured about the things that they spend 90% thinking about if they're a swing voter. And that's their sort of personal priorities, feeding their family, making sure their kids can move out someday, affording the things that families want to afford, groceries, housing, vacations, whatnot. But increasingly, people also see the brazenness of the attempts to completely alter our democracy. I think Governor Moore is interesting because he seems to hold those two things rather effortlessly and is able to make the connection between, you know, in a democracy, you get to throw people out who don't deliver on that first big bucket of things. What are your thoughts about how that conversation with the part of the electorate that's going to determine not just control of the House and Senate, but the next presidential contest?

[Former Senator Claire McCaskill]

Well, there's certainly a tension there. The tension is, do we, you know, what they're doing is so bad, and how much do we want to emulate that versus if we all pay attention and stay united, we can win. And then comes the power to change the trajectory of what's going on. That power will not come just by punching back them in the face. The power will come by winning elections. And that's why I think some of the media is overblowing this split in the Democratic Party. Sure, we have primaries going on, particularly in very blue places. Sure, we have people that are, quote, unquote, outsiders that want to take on incumbents because they don't think they're doing enough, they're not fighting hard enough. But at the end of the day, when all the dust is settled after the primaries, I think the Democrats are going to come together in a very strong way because I think in our guts, our party and I think many independents now understand what's at stake.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

Yeah, no, I totally agree with you and I'm allergic to that kind of sort of horse racy coverage. We'll continue to have that conversation. Thank you so much my friend for sticking around for the hour. Quick break for us, we'll be right back. My dream is to spend the whole two hours of this show talking about my favorite sports stories. But in lieu of that, this week's episode of the Best People podcast is a conversation with our friend, Pulitzer Prize winning podcaster Pablo Torre. He ties together so many of the stories that we cover here. Take a listen to part of our conversation. Pablo. The World cup stories about America's look on the world stage are not good. From rejecting one of the most highly regarded and respected referees to harassing teams with onerous drug inspections and whatnot. What does America look like around the world?

[Political Commentator Pablo Torre]

I mean, it looks like what FIFA has long preferred, which is a compliant autocracy that has the characteristics of third world government that is willing to do business with the most corrupt governing body on planet earth. In sports, which is the aforementioned FIFA, it's not surprising, but it is a bummer, I would say, to see America not sort of stiffen its spine enough to say that like, hey, what FIFA wants here, we don't quite need like this. So we don't need to expend public money like this. We don't need to perform like we are desperate because we're the United bleeping States of America. But it's not just that. It's the fact that of course under this administration they found a kindred spirit.

[Show Host (Nicole Wallace)]

To hear more about kindred spirits, FIFA and Donald Trump, scan the QR code on your screen or download the Best people wherever you get your podcasts. Pablo is brilliant on all sorts of topics and very funny. You don't want to miss this episode. Listen to it and let me know what you think on Instagram or Blue Sky. One more break. We will be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes tonight. We are grateful Ford is here for

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