“Unanimous calls from the public to release the files”

Summary

Deadline: White House – “Unanimous calls from the public to release the files”

Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC
Date: August 14, 2025

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Overview

This episode confronts the ongoing Epstein files controversy, focusing on the Trump administration's refusal to release all related files. Nicolle Wallace leads a powerful conversation with Alicia Arden, one of Epstein’s early public accusers, and her attorney Gloria Allred, alongside expert analysts. The discussion centers on the overwhelming public demand for transparency, the experiences and needs of Epstein’s victims, and the deeply political maneuvering occurring in Congress and the DOJ.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Epstein Files: Public Outcry & Political Deadlock

• Unprecedented Consensus: Recent polling shows near-universal public demand for full release of the Epstein files—over 90% of Democrats, 86% of independents, 83% of Republicans, and even 82% of self-identified MAGA Republicans agree (04:37).
• Congressional Stalemate: Bipartisan efforts—led by Reps. Ro Khanna (D) and Thomas Massie (R)—are emerging to force action, including a forthcoming press conference with survivors (03:34).
• Host commentary: “At any time in our nation’s politics, especially right now, it is extremely difficult to find anything that nearly everyone in the country agrees on. But across the board, there are near unanimous calls from the public for releasing the files.” (04:37)

2. Voices of Survivors: The Need for Truth and Justice

• Alicia Arden’s Story & Motivation: Arden recounts her 1997 assault by Epstein under the pretense of modeling work and her persistent, largely unsupported attempts to report the crime to police (07:12–10:34).
  • “I’m just there to show you my portfolio. … And I ran out of the room and I just felt I have to go to the police and I have to file a police report, because what if he’s doing this to other girls?” (08:34)
• Enduring Trauma and Closure: Arden describes continued trauma and sees file release as a step toward closure for herself and others.
  • “Releasing these files I feel would help myself and I hope would help them as well because I don’t think anything should be hidden from us and I don’t think any kind of a cover up should be occurring.” (05:21)
• Failures in Law Enforcement Response: She details being dismissed by police, feeling unsupported, and how earlier action could have prevented more victims:
  • “If the police would have just followed him and taken my police report seriously … I could have saved the girls from any trauma, if they would have looked at my report and taken me seriously.” (09:32)
• Empowering Other Victims: Arden urges other women never to be discouraged from reporting assault—“We should not be scared … they should never be discouraged, ever.” (11:02)

3. Systemic Accountability and the Maxwell Factor

• Disproportionate Consequences: Both Arden and Allred question why Ghislaine Maxwell is the only one to face substantial legal consequences.
  • “Why is Ghislaine Maxwell the only one in prison serving time … if other people sexually abused the women and girls?” (06:22)
• Maxwell’s Prison Transfer: Wallace and guests express shock over Maxwell’s move to minimum security after an important DOJ interview—seen as suspiciously convenient (17:05–19:01):
  • “It doesn’t pass the laugh test to suggest that somehow this is a coincidence.” (19:12, Allred)
• Demand for Transparency: Allred insists all related information—especially depositions/interviews with Maxwell—must be made public, including indications of corroboration or rebuttal.
  • “It seems like it has to be a battle, Nicole, to get the information out. We just want the information out. As Alicia has said … she’s tired of the battle about this. Just do it.” (15:43)

4. Accountability Blocked: Institutional Barriers

• Firing of Prosecutor Maureen Comey: Allred discusses the abrupt sacking of one of the senior prosecutors on the Epstein files, calling it “very, very disturbing” and a major setback for victims seeking justice (25:19).
• Redactions and Excuses: Allred notes the DOJ will likely use “privacy” rationales to keep names secret, unless individuals waive their privacy—challenging Trump and others to do so if they have “nothing to fear” (27:31).
  • “President Trump could also say, I have nothing to fear. Just release it with my name and whatever they said and then I will rebut it because I did nothing wrong … public wants to know who else may have enabled, may have assisted, may have been involved.” (27:31)
• Role of DOJ Under Trump: Analyst Christy Greenberg contends that instead of using media to kill damaging stories, Trump is now “using the DOJ” to hide information damaging to him (42:02).
  • “What is the message you are sending? The message you are sending to victims is that there is not going to be accountability for the rich, for the powerful, for the famous who commit these heinous crimes.” (41:34)

5. Media, Politics, and the Manipulation of Victims

• Victims Used as Political Pawns: Journalist Tara Palmeri fears the issue is devolving into a political weapon, rather than focusing on victims’ justice (33:09).
  • “They become just like pawns in these political power games. And that’s why we have to keep hearing them, hearing their testimony, remembering that they are real people, that there are real broken lives because of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.” (33:16)
• Conservative Media Confusion: Palmeri points out that right-wing personalities built their audiences by promising the files would expose Democratic elites—now, with Trump blocking release, their narrative is undermined, causing silence or confusion:
  • “It’s really confusing for people like Joe Rogan, Charlie Kirk … because the list was supposed to be all Democrats, right? … No, this is actually really messy. This is a lot of elites from all different spectrums.” (36:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Alicia Arden (Survivor), on closure:

  “Releasing these files I feel would help myself and I hope would. Would help them as well because I don’t think anything should be hidden from us and I don’t think any kind of a cover up should be occurring.” (05:21)

• Gloria Allred (Attorney), on accountability:

  “There are real survivors. They’re real victims here. And if Alicia had been taken seriously and if there’d been a prosecution in the first place, and attention to what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, perhaps some of them might have been spared from now a lifelong trauma.” (15:19)

• Nicolle Wallace, on bipartisan support:

  “Across the board, there are near unanimous calls from the public for releasing the files.” (04:37)

• Christy Greenberg (Former SDNY), critiquing DOJ:

  “Now he [Trump] has the Department of Justice to do that for him. And that’s what we’re seeing. … The message you are sending to victims is that there is not going to be accountability for the rich, for the powerful, for the famous who commit these heinous crimes.” (41:34)

• Tara Palmeri (Journalist), on media complicity:

  “…They become just like pawns in these political power games. And that’s why we have to keep hearing them, hearing their testimony, remembering that they are real people, that there are real broken lives because of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.” (33:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:33] — Congressional battles over Epstein files; upcoming press conference with survivors
• [05:01] — Nicolle welcomes Alicia Arden and Gloria Allred
• [07:12–10:34] — Arden recounts her experience with Epstein and the police
• [15:43] — Allred on need for complete file release; battle for transparency
• [17:54] — Discussion of Maxwell’s suspicious prison transfer
• [25:19] — Allred reflects on firing of Maureen Comey (lead prosecutor)
• [29:42] — Arden: “If nobody did anything to these underage victims … then no one has anything to fear or to hide so that we just don’t keep having to talk about it.”
• [33:09] — Tara Palmeri: Victims as political pawns
• [36:54] — Palmeri on confusion in conservative media and the shifting narrative
• [40:26] — Christy Greenberg on what’s likely in the files and the damage of burying victim stories
• [41:34] — Greenberg: Trump “has the DOJ to do that for him”

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Flow, Tone, and Takeaways

The episode maintains a determined, survivor-centered tone, pairing empathy with outrage at institutional failures. Wallace’s approach is sensitive yet direct. Arden’s testimony is raw and compelling, illustrating why transparency is vital. Allred and analysts underscore why the pursuit of justice must remain a bipartisan, victim-focused issue, not one lost to political gamesmanship or media distortion.

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Bottom Line

The episode lays bare both the breadth of public support for releasing the Epstein files and the depth of institutional resistance to doing so. By foregrounding survivor testimony, exposing bureaucratic and political maneuvering, and scrutinizing the media’s shifting role, it makes a forceful case: real justice demands transparency—for the victims, and for the country as a whole.

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Transcript

[A]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte, paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app. Download today, Saturday, October 11, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scar, Mika Brzezinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Rule and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. I think it seems pretty clear to the vast majority of Americans, as you're pointing out this evening, Lawrence, that Donald Trump's got one major interest in this whole this point, which is burying any information that reveals the connection between him and Jeffrey Epstein. We know that they had more than 1,000 FBI agents working 24 hour shifts looking for mentions of Donald Trump's name in the Epstein files and looking for photographs of him, video snippets of him, whatever it might be. And then when that process was completed, that's when Donald Trump quickly moved to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

[B]

Hi again, Everybody. It's now 5 o' clock in the East. That was the top Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee speaking on this network last night, reiterating the eyebrow raising conduct from the Trump administration when it comes to what is in the Epstein files and the decision not to release them, there are files that, as you heard Congressman Jamie Raskin say, Donald Trump is trying desperately to distract from now that he's decided not to release them. But no matter how much he tries to hide from the facts due to the conspiracies that he ginned up years ago and now the further questions he's prompting, the actual tragedy and the scandal around it shows no signs of abating. Republicans in the House already tried to run away from the issue by taking an August recess early, like in July, to avoid voting on this matter. The lawmakers have to come back eventually and they're due back in Washington next month. Already, some are making clear that they're determined not to allow this to be swept under the rug. Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna and Republican Congressman Thomas Massie will hold a press conference at the Capitol the day after House members return from break the press Conference will include survivors of Jeffrey Epstein, several of whom they note will be speaking out publicly for the very first time. Many survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's horrors, women who have, women who were girls in a lot of instances at the time and have already been through so much, have been publicly calling in recent weeks for the release of all the files. They've been slamming and criticizing the Trump administration's effort to unseal grand jury testimony, saying only doing that is cowardly and, quote, smacks of a cover up. There's new reporting in the Hill that reminds us that the battles in Congress are set to revive as House committees will be forced to address them. Quote, the House Rules Committee, which was brought to a standstill in July over Democratic efforts to force votes on the Epstein affair, will likely be compelled to revisit the issue if Republicans want to move any piece of their legislative agenda next month. And bipartisan motions in the House Oversight and Government Committee that forced chair James Comer to issue a flurry of subpoenas related to the Epstein matter could reignite public interest in the saga. At any time in our nation's politics, especially right now, it is extremely difficult to find anything that nearly everyone in the country agrees on. But across the board, there are near unanimous calls from the public for releasing the files. A recent Washington Post survey found stunning numbers on this. 90% of all Democrats, 86% of all independents and a whopping 83% of all Republicans. Even 82% of self described MAGA Republicans want the files released. So as Republican Thomas Massie put it when announcing his upcoming press conference, quote, the survivors deserve justice and Americans deserve transparency. And that is where we start the hour with Alicia Arden. She's one of the first accusers of Jeffrey Epstein and her lawyer, Gloria Allred, who has represented more than two dozen other Epstein survivors. Thank you both so much for being here.

[C]

Thank you for having us, Nicole.

[B]

Thank you, Alicia. Thank you for talking about what I imagine was one of the most awful days of your life. And I want to just ask you if being here is additional trauma on top of trauma for you.

[D]

It is, Nicole. It continues to be traumatic, but I feel speaking out for me is somewhat of closure. And I've always wanted to help myself and the other victims. So releasing these files I feel would help myself and I hope would. Would help them as well because I don't think anything should be hidden from us and I don't think any kind of a cover up should be occurring. I'm not speaking for them, just myself, but I feel like Coming out for me is. Is just somewhat of a closure. And releasing the files would. Would be a closure instead of everyone just talking about it.

[B]

Alicia, has anyone from the Trump administration been in contact with you?

[C]

No.

[D]

No one from any administration has been in contact with me.

[B]

And what, in your view, would. Would justice look like at this point?

[D]

Well, I feel releasing the files would. Would be justice and not anyone trying to cover. Also, I've always felt, why is Ghislaine Maxwell the only one in prison serving time for 20 years for her sexual abuse crimes? And if other people sexually abused the women and girls like myself when I was in the hotel room, then. And I feel that they should be brought to justice and. And serve time. And why is Ghislaine Maxwell the only one serving time? I can't imagine other people not agreeing with me.

[B]

Alicia, are you comfortable telling us what happened to you, what Jeffrey Epstein did to you?

[D]

Well, at the time, you must remember, Nicole, in 1997, at the time, I was a working model and actress, and I really have been in films and work my entire life. And I was under the impression that he was going to provide me with a photo or two in the Victoria's Secrets catalog, which was extremely important to me. I was coming off of Baywatch. I was a working model and actress. So if you mention that I can get in Victoria's Secrets, I want that. And he was mentioning that, and he already saw my portfolio from New York, and he flew in, and I got a phone call from his secretary saying, jeffrey wants to meet you based on your beautiful modeling portfolio. And that's what always my experiences were. And then he saw it. I went in the room, he started attacking me. He gave me $100. I said, I'm not a prostitute. I just want to be in Victoria's Secrets. I'm a working model. And he started having me come over to him, touching me, taking off my clothes, telling me that he wanted to manhandle me. And that's the most upsetting thing I've ever heard. I never heard, and I've said this for years, Nicole, I've never heard anyone say that to me but him, let me manhandle you. And all my clothes were coming off, and. And it was just becoming so traumatic and upsetting that I was even in that position. I'm just there to show you my portfolio. And what is my call time for photo to be in Victoria's Secrets. And that's all I wanted. And that's all I wanted. And I ran out of the room and I just felt I have to go to the police and I have to file a police report, because what if he's doing this to other girls?

[B]

And what did the police say?

[D]

They weren't very helpful. I had originally, and I have stated, and it's. It's on tape, I wanted a female police officer to take my report, not men who didn't believe me. And this is the time in 1997 that I filed the report. And what happened to the MeToo movement, was that around then? Is it still around to help women that really feel they need to file a police report on people taking advantage of them? So they made me. They actually told me to leave and think about it. So I went back to my job in. In Beverly Hills and thought about it, and I said, I'm so uncomfortable with this. The police aren't helping me. I'm going to go back and demand that they file a report against this person, Jeffrey Epstein. So. So they did. And I filed it. And I felt. And I was very discouraged by the police department and my family. And I'm so happy that I did it. And to this day, I feel I did it for the other girls and myself. And also, if the police would have just followed him and taken my police report seriously, I have said for years I felt that I would and could have saved the girls from any trauma, any trauma, if they would have looked at my report and taken me seriously.

[B]

Alicia, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. And I think that so many people don't do what you did. So many assaults go unreported. I wonder what it was like when Jeffrey Epstein was ultimately indicted and so many of his victim stories had a similar narrative and fact pattern to yours.

[D]

Right. And we should not be scared. That's the one thing I want to say. We should not be scared to go into the police department. If other women and girls of any age feel that they're being assaulted by someone and they want to file a report, they should never be discouraged, ever.

[B]

Let me ask you, Gloria, what I think you have represented 27 victims. Can you say something?

[C]

Jeffrey Epstein and some of Ms. Maxwell as well.

[B]

Can you just talk about the patterns and the stories that have so many awful, harrowing similarities?

[C]

Well, I also have represented many underage victims of Jeffrey Epstein. Alicia was very courageous to go and file with police and very persistent to go back and file that report. She's the first one we know of that has documented proof that she filed a police report in 1997 with the Santa Monica Police Department. But many of my clients are also underage or were underage girls. And they, you know, they suffered under Jeffrey Epstein, and they continue to suffer today because, you know, they sometimes some of them shame, feel shamed and blamed, and some of them have not come forward. Some may in the future come forward because now they understand that they're not to blame. It was very difficult. They were reeled in, many of them. In other words, they were recruited by perhaps another woman, maybe Ms. Maxwell, maybe other girls that also had been victimized, but then were being paid to recruit others to go to Jeffrey Epstein. And some of the recruiters perhaps didn't know what was going to happen. Maybe they hoped it wouldn't. And these girls, for some of them, it was their first sexual experience. And really their sexual experience was actually an experience of sexual abuse. Let's talk about child sexual abuse. I never call men like Jeffrey Epstein pedophiles, because in Greek that essentially means a lover of children. And I think those who sexually abuse children are really sexual predators and they are child molesters, and we should emphasize the child and not what may or may be wrong psychologically with the person who is abusing them. So in any event, you know, I'm looking forward to more victims speaking out, more survivors. I would like to see change. And so truth, transparency, accountability, justice, if it can be achieved in some way, that's what we're looking for. I think that's what the American people are looking for right now. They're getting their runaround, getting just pieces of this. What happened is not enough because you can't tell the whole context of it from just pieces. And I do think that Todd Blanche should release the questions he asked of Ms. Maxwell, the convicted sexual trafficker and predator, which she is. And underneath the transcript, if as and when he is forced to release it, which I think he will have to be forced to release it or testify at some point, there should be a caption saying that there's corroboration of what she said or rebuttal to what she said, or proof that she's lying if she is, and or any inconsistent statement she made. So because she was indicted twice for perjury, although it was ultimately dismissed, we have to really be careful about hearing what she says or seeing it and accepting that as the truth, which it may or may not be, there's reason to suspect it. But right now, it seems like it has to be a battle, Nicole, to get the information out. We just want the information out. As Alicia has said at the press conference, we did. You know, she's tired of the battle about this. Just do it. And I think those were very wise words. So I'm glad that we're going to hear from more survivors in the future. It may be that some of my clients may also speak out in addition to Alicia, hopefully inspired by her courage. And that's the way we get it. We can't just accept that this is going to go away. It's not going away. And yes, there's going to be a lot of politics involved, but everyone should remember they're real survivors. They're real victims here. And if Alicia had been taken seriously and if there'd been a prosecution in the first place, and attention to what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, perhaps some of them might have been spared from now a lifelong trauma if they were especially underage when they suffered it.

[B]

Let me show both of you someone who isn't with us anymore and can't speak for herself, but. But did before she died. This is Virginia Jaffrey on Ghislaine Maxwell. She is a monster. She's worse than Epstein. She. She did things even worse than Epstein did. Epstein was Pinocchio and she was Gesto. She was the guy controlling the strings. Yep, she was pulling the strings. She had his money. He had her contacts.

[D]

But Ghislaine was much more conniving and.

[B]

Smart than Epstein ever was. As you both know, Ghislaine Maxwell was moved from a low security prison to a minimum security prison where she can't participate in all the programs I had the head of a canine training program on. And they forbid child sex offenders from participating in their program because they're unsuitable to care for a puppy. And I wonder, Alicia, how you feel about the current administration meeting with someone so heinous in her criminality, the crimes for which she's been convicted, that she's not even allowed to really be at the prison she's been moved to.

[D]

Well, I just have such a disturbing issue, Nicole, on why she was moved in the first place. She should serve out her sentence of 20 years for sex trafficking of children at the other prison. Why should she be moved to have more freedom or lower security, minimum security, in a different prison? Why? I just never have understood that she needs to just go back to the one that she was in and serve the 20 years there and stay there. I just have such a hard time hearing the word pardoned for anything. Why should she be? I mean, that would be the worst thing ever for myself and probably the other victims. Because it's like it's not necessary. She needs to serve her 20 years for sex trafficking of children. It's a terrible crime and it should be where she was before.

[C]

And Nicole, I'm really glad that there are senators and members of Congress who are asking the tough questions which should be asked. For example, what was said in the interview between Todd Blanche and Ms. Maxwell. Questions and answers. When's it going to be released? Will it be released? And of course Todd Blanche will be a witness if in fact he is subpoenaed, which he should be, I believe by the Congress to testify on this Epstein matter. In addition to that, you raise the issue, why is she in that? They call it a camp minimum security prison rather than where she was. And why is it just a coincidence that suddenly she gets transferred after she is interviewed by Todd Blanche? I think, you know, it doesn't pass the laugh test to suggest that somehow this is a coincidence. And you know, it's unusual for a sexual predator to be there in the so called camp, which is supposed to be a prison in Texas. It's unusual to do it essentially without a waiver from. And that's why I believe that members of Congress, senators are asking, was there a waiver? What did it say? How did this transfer come about? It's disturbing to a lot of the prisoners who are in that minimum security camp because they didn't expect a sexual predator to be in there. That's not the place for sexual predators, sex traffickers. And it's disturbing to those who were in the prison in which she first was placed because they're wondering, hey, why does she get to have special treatment and how did that come about? And why is she getting special treatment? Why can't they be there? So these are all legitimate questions. You don't have to be a lawyer to ask these questions. Alicia's asked some of them wisely so. And the public is wanting to know answers. And I don't care if they're distractions by the administration. You know, wave a red flag over here, look over here, don't look over here at the Epstein issues. It's time that this be addressed. It's not going away. The public, Republicans and Democrats and independents, as you showed on your program, they all want answers. The public is not stupid and they're not going to be distracted. The public cares about child sexual abuse and sexual trafficking of children and that's what was involved as well as adults being trafficked. And we've got to have answers. If there are third parties that were involved in this, we want to know who they are. We want to know, was there evidence such that they could have been prosecuted? If so, why weren't they prosecuted? Why are their names being hidden? All of these questions have to be answered and we're all looking forward to those answers. We deserve those answers. And children, you know, children, this can't, this should not be able to happen again to children. The only way we're going to be able to prevent it is to make sure that we really know the truth of what's going on and hopefully pass some laws that are going to help children victims in the future or laws to prevent that from happening in the future.

[B]

Can I ask both of you to stay through a short break? I want to ask both of you what role you think Donald Trump's very public, longtime friendship with Jeffrey Epstein and d' Elaine Maxwell plays in the reluctance to turn over a full accounting of all the files. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll continue our conversation with Alicia and Gloria on the other side. Don't go anywhere.

[A]

Saturday, October 11th, from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Bruszynski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit msnbc.comlive25 to buy your tickets today. Start your day with the MSNBC daily newsletter. Each morning, read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott.

[C]

When you think about the history of.

[D]

Baltimore and gun violence, this issue has.

[A]

Really been the issue that has made.

[D]

Or broken the careers of mayor after.

[C]

Mayor after mayor and really been the.

[D]

Centerpiece for all discussion around this city.

[C]

For more than 50 years, longer than I've been alive.

[B]

That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever you're listening right now, and follow.

[A]

It was practically instantaneous. And of course, that then speaks to the irregularity of the process leading up to it. Remember that this was preceded by the sacking of Maureen Comey, who was one of the senior prosecutors leading that prosecution, and they simply fired her. And then that's when Todd Blanche decided to take matters into his own hands. We want to know what exactly transpired between the two of them.

[B]

We're back with Alicia and Gloria. Gloria, I want to ask you if you, having been involved in so many of these cases, if you've ever seen the firing of a prosecutor like this one, like Maureen Comey, sort of in the middle of a call for transparency, and if you have any insights from any, any of the victims about what kind of prosecutor she was on these cases.

[C]

I'm so glad you asked. Nicole. I have met Maureen Comey because I have represented two alleged victims in civil lawsuits against Sean Diddy Combs. Of course, she was a lead prosecutor in that. And I've represented many others alleged victims of Sean Diddy Combs who spoke to law enforcement with my assistance. In addition, I represented many, many victims of R. Kelly in the criminal case. And so I met her in that context. In any case, what I want to say about her, she was a very sensitive, very professional, very smart, very well prepared prosecutor. And the fact that she was just basically given the death penalty from the Justice Department, poetically speaking, just fired without giving any cause is very, very disturbing. They've lost a real asset. I don't know why, except for her name, that she might have been terminated, but nobody should be terminated because, you know, the employer doesn't like their father, so to speak. So that's, that's my feeling about her. But I do want to say something about President Trump and others who may have been mentioned in the files that the public, including us, would like to see released. You know, there are a lot of third parties in there. Besides President Trump's name being in there, there are many other men who, whose names are in there. And that's my strong belief. In any event, a lot of those names are redacted. If and when the files are released, the government may say they're redacted. We're not going to let the public see them because they have a right of privacy and we're going to protect that right of privacy. That may be true, except they could waive their privacy and say, I don't have anything to hide. Let's see what it says about me. You can publish my name. They can give that up. So President Trump could also say, I have nothing to fear. Just release it with my name and whatever they said and then I will rebut it because I did nothing wrong, if that's what he chooses to say. In fact, I don't know what he's going to say because I'm not going to make that prediction. But what I'm saying is public wants to know who else may have enabled, may have assisted, may have been involved, constrained, conspiring with Jeffrey Epstein, conspiring with Ms. Maxwell, or not involved in a conspiracy, but in some other way that might be criminal. We need to know that. And we need to know some of them may also be in videos. The government has, my understanding is thousands of videos, and some of them are of children being sexually abused. They had no knowledge, no consent that. And they couldn't consent, of course, because they're children. But being, you know, sexually abused by Jeffrey Epstein and maybe by others, because we don't know if Jeffrey Epstein was somehow making videos to help to blackmail others. This is very disturbing. And those videos should never be released. And even if they're of adults, that's pornography. And neither the Congress nor anyone else should be able to view that because many of these victims have not even viewed it themselves. And some know that they exist, but some don't know. So I'm very concerned about this issue as well.

[B]

Alicia, I want to give you the last word and I want to ask you what those of us that talk about these heinous crimes carried out by Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell and any other men who were involved, what we should know or what we need to know or how we can show the most respect for the victims.

[D]

Well, allegedly, if there is this list that's supposed to be coming out, Nicole, that Pam Bondi was talking about since February, and if no one has anything to hide or fear, then it just should come out already that we don't have to keep talking about it. And what Gloria said before the break, it's not my fault, it's not the victim's fault. None of it's our fault. We just would like to see who's on the list allegedly and come to some terms for it. If nobody did anything to these underage victims and other victims, then no one has anything to fear or to hide so that we just don't keep having to talk about it. And it upsets me and the other victims. I'm sure that it just keeps going on and talking about it. So if no one has anything to hide and no one did anything wrong, then just let's release the list. I don't. I still see why they should be keep talking about it.

[C]

And subpoena transparent. Mr. Acosta, who was the United States attorney in Florida when the sweetheart deal was made by the state attorney, not by him. Instead of all these 60s so called charges in a possible indictment that he could have filed as a United States attorney, he sent it over to the state, the county, and that's when the sweetheart deal was made. So there's. Yeah. You mentioned eyebrow raising earlier, Nicole, in your remarks. All of this is eyebrow raising and we need to get to the bottom of it.

[B]

I think that's a nice generous.

[D]

He just kind of didn't do any time in Florida, Gloria.

[C]

He did sometime in Florida for soliciting an act of prostitution with a minor, but it was minimal. He was allowed to go to work outside of the jail during the day and just sleep there at night. So if that's not a sweetheart, I don't know what is.

[B]

Alicia and Gloria, thank you so much to both of you for having this conversation at all and for having it with us. I'm really grateful.

[C]

Thank you, Nicole.

[D]

Thanks.

[B]

We're going to get reaction to our conversation with Alicia and Gloria and the mounting political peril for Donald Trump after a very short break. Joining our conversation is podcast host, author of the Red Letter on Substack. Tara Palmeri's here. She also hosted two investigative series on the topic called Broken Jeffrey Epstein and Power the Maxwells. Also joining us, former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, our friend MSNBC legal analyst, host of the YouTube show Courtside, Christi Greenberg's here, Tara Palmieri. I have to say, just, you know, I've listened to all of your content and your great conversations and interviews and I've, I've read everything Julie K. Brown has reported on this. But to actually talk to any victim of sexual assault, but a victim of Jeffrey Epstein's is just horrifying. Your thoughts on where this whole slow motion sort of train wreck stands?

[E]

You know, it's sad to me, Nicole, because the more and more I hear from people, the more I hear, oh, you know, does it make Trump look bad? Is it going to just, you know, what is the political reason for all of this? Right. And it's all about trying to slime one person or another instead of remembering the victims, the survivors of Epstein and what this is really about justice. And I think, you know, these, they become just like pawns in these political power games. And that's why we have to keep hearing them, hearing their testimony, remembering that they are real people, that there are real broken lives because of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. And, you know, they are demanding justice like so many of them. They want to know what's in the files, and there's information that is going to make people look bad on both sides of the aisle. And I think the problem is, is that when there's a feeling like, oh, this is no longer interesting in terms of a political story, it loses. It loses the interest of the powers that be. Right. I mean, I think it's amazing that you have stayed on this story day after day, week after week, and I really commend you for that. And you've shown such sensitivity to it. But I worry that over time, people will just forget about them again and forget about the justice that they never were able to get to begin with and that they'll just have to continue moving on and feel like they were just pawns, placeholders on top of the Capitol Hill step to make Trump look bad. And they'll never really actually be able to put together the pieces of their broken lives, frankly.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I guess on the political piece. I don't even understand the political piece. Donald Trump talked about grabbing women in the, you know where. And he won. Like, I don't even. I don't have any. I have no gut on the politics of anything relating to. And he's an adjudicated sexual abuser. I mean, I have no idea about the politics of these issues. And as a woman and as a mom, I find that totally depressing. So not only. I mean, I don't care about the political pieces. What I think is fascinating is that this is such an fu to Trump's base and to sort of the MAGA adjacent manosphere that more than pushed him over the edge in November. To all these prominent men, this feels like I'm almost more interested in the politics for Joe Rogan and Andrew Schultz than I am the politics for Donald Trump. Donald Trump seems to, like, be like a guy in space. There's no political gravity for Donald Trump, and he's a lame duck. Anyway. What confounds me is for all these people who made the truth, which is ostensibly about the truth for the purposes of the victim, central to their rise in new media, where are they going to say, oh, never mind? I mean, that to me, Tara, is the part of the story where I have just sort of. I have insatiable despair for the victims who, to your point, have done these interviews, it has to be horrible. I mean, I had waited to do an interview until I just had too many questions not to, and had seen Alicia so many other places. But the idea that people who rode this to some sort of fame in the manosphere how could they ever drop it after all that? This story sort of paid them out in terms of viewership and listeners and stickiness and trust. Like, how does Joe Rogan, or how do they say, oh, never mind, I really never cared about that anyway.

[E]

I mean, that's the political angle, right? I mean, that's the. To me that. That's the us versus them part. And if you're saying that they're no longer the enemy, we're the ones holding back the information, it just creates this entire confusion. And if you're suddenly covering for the person who doesn't want to release the files, you're showing that you're the lapdog, right? I mean, it's really confusing for people like Joe Rogan, Charlie Kirk, Cash Patel, Dan Bongino could. Because the list was supposed to be all Democrats, right? Like, that was what the story was all along. But now you've got a very prominent Republican, the leader, the person that unites them all, the MAGA base, saying, I don't want this out there because there are innocent people. You know, it's just very confusing. And so what are they supposed to do? Are they supposed to turn on Trump and say, trump, you have to release the list. You have to release the files. Excuse me, you have to release the files. No, because it's a confusion for their audience, who they've been telling all along, that it's a bunch of. It's a cabal of Democratic elites. It's like, no, this is actually really messy. This is a lot of elites from all different spectrums. And when you only look at it as a cudgel, as a tool, you've missed the plot. And that's why I think they're drowning in the story. And suddenly you don't hear it anymore. You really don't. It's getting quieter.

[B]

I mean, J.D. vance said on Sunday that a bunch of Democrats went to Epstein Island. So where are those names? I mean, what's amazing to me is because they can't even decide what they want to say about it. And they know everything. I mean, arguably, J.D. vance knows everything that's in it. Elon Musk must know what's in it. He tweeted about it, about Trump being in it. I have to sneak in a break. I want to bring Christie into this conversation. On the other side. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

[A]

MSNBC presents the chart topping original podcast, the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This was this week. She sits down with legal scholar Melissa Murray.

[D]

If you're a person who's ambitious or you're a person who thinks there's something in the world to be solved, it's really hard to dial it down and sit it out.

[A]

The best people with Nicole Wallace listen now. For early access and free listening and bonus content, subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts.

[B]

Tara and Christy are back. Christy, I wonder what your thoughts are in terms of what could be in the files. I mean, there is this faith that eventually the answers will be known and that people who have nothing to hide shouldn't worry about it. A lot of choices about redactions, but oddly there's almost more faith that ultimately this is bending towards some revelation from Alicia and Gloria than I've heard from anyone in the political arena. What do you think?

[F]

Well, I certainly think one thing that is certainly in the files are the victims stories, their accounts, hours and hours of prosecutors sitting down with victims hearing what happened to them and the fact that, you know that we're not going to hear from these victims and we're not going to hear their stories. And yet the number two at the Department of Justice, Todd Blanche, Trump's former lawyer, is committing to releasing information at some point. He said about what Ghislaine Maxwell said that is incredibly troubling. We don't need to hear from someone who is a convicted child sex trafficker, who is a pathological liar who lies like she breathes and who has not accepted any responsibility for what she's done. She claimed in a recent filing she, she was a scapegoat of Jeffrey Epstein. She has not shown any remorse to the victims. I have not heard her lawyer or her say I'm sorry for what happened, for what I did. Remember, she abused these girls, too. And you know, the fact that we're not, we're going to potentially get some information from her but not hear from the victims is deeply, deeply troubling. I commend Alicia for the tremendous courage she showed coming on your show and speaking out about what's happened by but I really worry that the message the Department of Justice is Sending here is for victims not to speak out, for them not to trust law enforcement, for them not to trust prosecutors. Because when the number two of the Department of Justice says, I'm going to sit down with a convicted sex trafficker and then after that meeting, I'm going to reward her with a country club prison stay. But yet, and before I was going to commit to releasing the file that would tell you what the victim said, but now, once Donald Trump's name is found in there, now I'm not going to. What is the message you are sending? The message you are sending to victims is that there is not going to be accountability for the rich, for the powerful, for the famous who commit these heinous crimes. And that instead, the victim stories will get buried. And the person who actually did this, there's only one person who is alive who is convicted for abusing. There are thousands of victims, and that person is now being rewarded. It's a terrible message to send to these victims. So again, I suspect not only is in the file their stories, but corroboration for their stories in the form of videos, in the forms of other victim statements that corroborate what they would say, photographs, physical evidence from search warrants, all kinds of corroboration that that could potentially make cases. And yet we're not going to see all of it because essentially what Donald Trump has done is he used to have the National Enquirer to catch and kill any stories that were damaging to him. Now he has the Department of Justice to do that for him. And that's what we're seeing. And unfortunately, I think what we will hear from Ghislaine Maxwell, whatever comes out is going to be something that is adverse to Donald Trump's political victims and something that supposedly exonerates Donald Trump, which is a sad state of affairs when he is the president is relying on a sex trafficker to somehow exonerate him for something. But that's the state that we're in right now. And I think it is a very, very sad state for victims of sex crimes.

[B]

Christy Greenberg and Tara Palmeri, thank you for hanging out for the whole hour with us through the interview and through this conversation. I'm really grateful to both of you. One more person break for us. We'll be right back.

[E]

A critical question that I asked myself over and over again is, you know, can you put Humpty Dumpty back together again? We are breaking a lot of things.

[D]

And mistakes are being made and I.

[E]

Don'T know if they can be fixed easily.

[D]

It will likely take 20 years to undo what we've seen done in the space of six months. I don't know where we're gonna be in 20 years. I mean, I honestly don't know if we're gonna have midterm elections.

[F]

Like, I don't think.

[C]

I don't think.

[D]

It'S a foregone conclusion.

[E]

I mean, all you got to do.

[D]

Is come up with some national emergency.

[E]

Send in the National Guard, suspend the midterms.

[B]

Like when someone with Melissa Murray's legal acumen sends up a flare for democracy like that one, we pay attention. This week's episode of the Best People is chock full of moments like those. Scan the QR code on your screen to watch it on YouTube or download the conversation. Wherever you get your podcasts, I hope you'll listen and let me know what you think. One more break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.