Senator Bill Cassidy (2:52)

Phenomenal Let me ask you. But you just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than Covid. Wait, that was a statement.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (3:03)

I did not say that.

Senator Bill Cassidy (3:05)

Okay, then let me ask, because you also.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (3:07)

Senator, I just want to make clear I did not say that.

Senator Bill Cassidy (3:10)

We'll check the record. That's a question of fact. You also said that you were also, as lead attorney for the Children's Health Defense, you engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when, as an attorney, you attempted to restrict access.

Nicole (3:33)

Yeah, it's funny, right? If only it weren't so deadly. In other words, why would Donald Trump deserve the Nobel prize for something RFK Jr has spent years publicly calling dangerous, if not deadly? That contradiction is something other senators asked about as well. Watch. So, Mr. Secretary, was operation Warp Speed a monumental national achievement, as President Trump said?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (4:03)

For the reason that I already said, and I assume you won't let me repeat, but I'm happy to if you want. Yes, it was good.

Nicole (4:16)

Assuming it is a monumental achievement. You've said it was. Is it true that, as President Trump.

Senator Maria Cantwell (4:23)

Has said, he saved millions of American.

Nicole (4:25)

Lives with the COVID 19 vaccine? Because you've just expressed great confusion about that to Senator Warner.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (4:31)

The only confusion I express is exactly how many lives were saved. I don't think anybody knows that because of the data chaos.

Nicole (4:38)

So multiple studies have shown that the vaccine reduced infections and severe diseases and saved at least 3 million lives in the United States and millions more abroad in the first two years of the pandemic.

Senator Bill Cassidy (4:50)

President Trump, who I don't usually agree with, called Covid vaccines, quote, one of the greatest miracles in the history of modern day medicine that saved tens of millions of lives worldwide. Scientific community agrees with Trump. Lancet's study found that it prevented almost 20 million deaths during their first year of use. Secretary Kennedy, are President Trump and the medical community right, or do you still believe that the COVID vaccine was, quote, the deadliest vaccine ever made?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (5:23)

First of all, I didn't say that. I said that in terms of affairs reports a while ago. I said today I think that President Trump should get the Nobel Prize.

Senator Bill Cassidy (5:34)

So who's right? Is Trump in the medical community right, or are you right?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (5:38)

President Trump did an extraordinary piece of leadership.

Senator Bill Cassidy (5:42)

Is he right or wrong? Did Covid save millions of lives?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (5:47)

As I said, he got Americans back to work at that time. That particular vaccine was perfectly matched. The virus that was circulating then, I.

Dr. Jeremy Faust (5:54)

Can'T conclude from the discussion today. Where you are on warp speed. So I would like a definitive statement on exactly where you are. Was it good? Was it bad? Were the things that worked? Were the things that didn't work? I can't discern that from what you said here.

Nicole (6:15)

On the defensive, RFK Jr. Accused the CDC and the senators of ignoring the scourge of chronic disease, something that he says is going to stop with his clear leadership on that, the New York Times reports this, quote, Kennedy plans to eliminate the center at the CDC that focuses on chronic diseases. And here's Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell again calling out RFK Jr. For using a focus on chronic disease as a smokescreen for eliminating vaccine research and Access.

Senator Maria Cantwell (6:50)

You canceled $500 million of research because the MRNA technology is about continuing the research to be ready for the next flu, influenza, the next pandemic, and you have to do the research.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (7:07)

I'm happy to have a detailed discussion with you about it. You're so wrong on your facts.

Senator Maria Cantwell (7:12)

You're interrupting me. And, sir, you're a charlatan. That's what you are. You're the ones who conflate chronic disease with the need for vaccines. The history on vaccines is very clear. This is the 20th century. That's how many people had vaccines and had illnesses. This is the 21st century. This is the decrease. 99% down to 100%. This is what was delivered with vaccines. And you don't want to support that. You don't want to support that evidence.

Nicole (7:43)

We will have a chance to speak here on this program with Senator Cantwell in a couple minutes, but we start with Donald Trump's leading public health official unable to defend his own conspiracy theories in front of Democrats and Republicans in the United states Senate today. Dr. Jeremy Faust is here. He's an assistant professor of emergency medicine at Harvard Medical School and an editor in Chief of MedPage. Also joining me at the table is opinion writer for the New York Times, MSNBC political analyst Margay. Everything from this charade, Dr. Faust, was disturbing, frankly, to have a health secretary mouth breathing through the whole thing. I spent the whole time wondering what his ailment is in terms of a respiratory or, you know, I don't know. The whole thing was distracting. It was rude, it was nonlinear. In terms of his responses, within one question and answer, he seemed to take multiple positions. What happened today in the United States Senate?

Dr. Jeremy Faust (8:56)

Nicole, thanks for having me. What happened today was that the American people saw that our nation's top health official cannot seem to say directly in a clear way that vaccines save lives. That all the vaccines in the pediatric series that have been long recommended by the CDC and other expert groups are safe and effective through actual gold standard science. He can't say it because he spent his entire career undermining vaccines. And now that he's in control, he's spending the time that he has to make the vaccine apparatus that has kept this country safe for decades disintegrate. He has installed members of the CDC's voting panel on vaccines who share his view about vaccines. And they've already made scientificthey've already made recommendations that aren't scientific. But what's coming up in the next couple of weeks is probably going to be worse. He spends time on X trying to debunk science that is actually showing that vaccines are safe. Why would he do that if he's pro vaccine? And on top of that, he surrounds himself with people who don't know the science. He says, I'm not a doctor, don't trust me. Okay, who does he trust? And he never took any briefings from the top CDC officials on these issues. And he seems to be ill equipped to read the data, the science. So what's going to happen is we are going to see what the anti Vax segment has wanted for generations, which is a dismantling of an infrastructure that's kept us safe. This is like trying to plan a mission to Mars, but having it led by someone who's a flat Earther. That's what we're seeing. That's the behavior. And as someone who is a clinician, I will be in the ER today. I'm floored because it's very clear that he's. Secretary Kennedy has never had the responsibility of making choices that directly impact people's lives. In fact, he's making choices that will do. So. Millions of lives are in the balance here and it's coming from the federal government, which is alarming.

Nicole (10:53)

Just untangle the complete incompatibility. Saying Donald Trump deserves the Nobel Prize and all of the things he said about the COVID vaccine being, quote, dangerous and deadly.

Dr. Jeremy Faust (11:11)

He said that there's no safe and effective vaccine. He said that's true, which is remarkable because it's so false. President Trump did something extraordinary. He oversaw a federal government working with industry to in 10 months get safe and effective vaccines through phase three trials, meaning that there were randomized blinded studies, 30,000 people in each study to show that this was safe and have a long enough safety tail that we would actually people would take it. And they did. And we went from A country where a lot of people said, oh, I'm not sure if I would ever take that vaccine to a country where people, most people took it willingly. Yes, there were mandates in some places, but most people, by the time the rollout happened, were lining up. You couldn't get a vaccine unless you waited. So for him to say that this vaccine didn't save lives or is dangerous or is the most dangerous is so infuriating. And it's justit's a discredit to the president. Look, President Trump, in the future, they will have one sentence about this decade and pandemic will be in there. And I would think that President Trump would want it to say President Trump oversaw a vaccine effort that got us out of the worst part of that pandemic. And RFK is a liability to that. He's a threat to that. And if I'm the president, I wouldn't want that as my legacy. I'd like credit for what I did. Right.

Nicole (12:35)

And I think the best way to articulate how out of the mainstream RFK is is to show you that Bernie Sanders was aligned with Donald Trump today, not RFK Jr. Let me show you more of Senator Sanders.

Senator Bill Cassidy (12:52)

You know what I find a little bit weird in this discussion? I'm hearing it over and over again this morning, Mr. Chairman, is we've got the entire medical community on one side. You got the AMA representing hundreds of thousands of doctors, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Public Health association. All of these organizations are telling us that COVID vaccine and vaccines in general are safe and effective. You are casting doubt on that. Who are your scientific, who are the organizations that are agreeing with you and casting aspersions on vaccines?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (13:37)

The primary advisors are Marty McCary, Jay Bhattachara, Dr. Oz Vinh Ipras.

Senator Bill Cassidy (13:45)

You got a few doctors who agree with you.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (13:47)

What I'm giving you the name, not a few doctors. What you're talking about is there's a big difference, Senator, between established science and the scientific establishment which has been co opted by the pharmacy.

Senator Bill Cassidy (14:00)

So you're telling me you're telling the American people that the American Medical association representing hundreds of thousands of people have been co opted and that they should not trust their doctors.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (14:11)

And I'm the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Nicole (14:15)

What's the answer to that question? I mean, I think today, right now, I was at the pediatrician this morning. I trust my pediatrician and I sure as hell don't trust that guy. But what should people, what should people do?

Dr. Jeremy Faust (14:29)

Well, what I want people to understand Is this is not academic. When the American Academy of Pediatrics makes recommendations because they say that the CDC's vaccine panel is no longer trustworthy, that's helpful in a way, but it's not legally binding. And that's what I want people to understand is at stake is vaccine access for their children. The CDC's Advisory Committee on Immune Immunization Practices, by law, when it makes a recommendation for a vaccine, insurance companies must cover those vaccines cost free. That is thanks to the Affordable Care act and then a couple of other laws that were changed around it, including for kids. So the aap, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the ama, they can make recommendations, but it is only the CDC that can make legally binding recommendations that make those vaccines available. So I don't know. Look, they can argue on who's right or who he trusts, but he is installing people who are literally making it harder to get vaccines. Look, Dr. Makary, Dr. Bhattacharya, they stood by him while he made COVID vaccine changes without the usual transparent process that is required. And there may be some nuance here, but when we actually see that what's happening is people can't get vaccinated, including six month babies who have some of the highest hospitalization rates of anyone. Six month or six month infants get hospitalized from COVID at about the same rate as people in their 50s and 60s in this country. Okay? So they need to see a COVID vaccine before the virus. And nothing that this administration has done has made vaccine access easier. It's made it harder. And so the debate that Senator Sanders is having there is an important one. But I want people to understand they're coming for your vaccines. And I am very grateful that my children are vaccinated, but I'm worried about other people's children.

Nicole (16:13)

Margay, our politics are so broken that this happened, right? I think that in seven months, there may not have been a day where the stakes of what happened last November were more clear and obvious and underscored than that single chart by Senator Campbell of how many people died in the last century and how many people survived because of vaccines. That's where we are in terms of public education.

Margay (16:46)

I mean, I think we don't even have to go back that far for reasons that I can certainly relate to. It can be painful or difficult for some of us who lived through the pandemic to think about the worst of what happened before these vaccines were available. But just to remind America, we did lose over a million people to the pandemic. And you know, as someone who got sick very early on in April 2020, before these vaccines were available, and then developed severe and then long Covid. And even though I've recovered, a lot of people haven't, by the way. That's if Secretary Kennedy does care about those who are suffering with chronic illnesses. 20 million Americans plus have been diagnosed with long Covid. We know that the MRNA vaccine helps prevent not only deaths, but severe Covid and long Covid cases. So that's just one small example of why he cannot be trusted when it comes to public health. But I think the point, the bigger point here is that we lived through that. It was a tragedy. People have different experiences from the pandemic. But these vaccines saved lives. We know that. We know that they are overwhelmingly safe. And so I think this is really disturbing because, you know, much like those early days of the pandemic, when the public was misled early on by Donald Trump about the true threat posed by the virus, we no longer can trust. We've been told today, we have been put on notice. We cannot trust this administration with the public health. And so that means that the states are going to have to step in and do everything that they can to preserve access, especially for the most vulnerable people. And that's expensive. And not every state is set up to do that. Americans, I hope, should do their own research from trusted sources and should obviously talk to their own doctors. You know, the relationship that Americans have, and you hinted at this, you said you went to the pediatrician this morning. The relationship that we have with our own doctors, we know them, they know us. There's trust there. So ask your doctor. And you know, don't listen to Secretary Kennedy. The other thing is that these MRNA vaccines that several weeks ago Secretary Kennedy had gutted, he gutted the pipeline for research. This is not just about COVID This technology has the capability to prevent not only future pandemics for things like bird flu and other viruses, but also to prevent people from developing chronic illnesses we believe like cancer, diabetes, and can even stop potentially hiv. So this is devastating and there is no excuse. And I think Senator Sanders really revealed that today the Secretary Kennedy does not have credible sources because he doesn't want to listen to the science. And that's what Americans should know today.

Nicole (19:34)

Dr. Faust, just real quickly, I mean, not everybody has access to a pediatrician that they can just call. A lot of people rely on sort of the gaps in our health care. If their kid's sick, they end up in an emergency room or a walk in clinic. I mean, the idea that we're all going to have to go DIY it on vaccines is absurd and asinine and dangerous. What other safety nets are there for people in this emergency moment?

Dr. Jeremy Faust (20:04)

Well, I think the most important thing we always do in the emergency department is to stop the bleed. When a patient is hemorrhaging, we try to stop that, or when their heart is stopping, we try to resume it, if that's appropriate for that patient and that's in alignment with their goals. And we need to stop the bleed. Senator Cassidy is a physician. He took the Hippocratic oath, or the modern version of that. He talks about that. And he made a vote that laid the groundwork for the confirmation of Secretary Kennedy. And that vote is Senator Cassidy's legacy. And so if the vaccine infrastructure that we have continues to be threatened, as is currently occurring, that is on Senator Cassidy. And I call on my colleague, Dr. Cassidy, Senator Cassidy, but Dr. Cassidy to lead the way. So there's hope here. Senator Cassidy clearly is not happy with Secretary Kennedy. We saw that in the hearing today and in other statements that Senator Cassidy has made, including saying that this new CDC panel is not even trustworthy and can't even be valid. So my hope is that Senator Cassidy casts an even more important vote, which is one to get rid of Secretary Kennedy. It's time. We need someone who is either an expert or who surrounds himself with the correct experts. Stop the bleed. That's what needs to happen. And I think that Senator Cassidy has the ability to do that. It's would be. It would be historic. But that is the moment. That's the moment where we are.

Nicole (21:27)

Dr. Faust, thank you so much for starting us off today. Mars sticks around with us. When we come back, the senator who called Kennedy a charlatan to his face today. Senator Maria Cantwell will be our next guest. Also joining us, a new and rare rebuke of the United States Supreme Court from other federal judges. Calling out the Supreme Court justices for not doing enough to stop Donald Trump and his allies from slamming and threatening our judicial system. And later in the broadcast, the story that just won't go away, thanks to even some of Donald Trump's closest allies and biggest political supporters. His panic over Jeffrey Epstein is showing no sign of Quell being quelled. All those stories and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. What's poppin, listeners? I'm Laci Mosley, host of the podcast Scam Goddess, the show that's an ode to fraud. And all those who practice it. Each week I talk with very special guests about the scammiest scammers of all time. Wanna know about the fake errors? We got em? What about a career con man? We've got them too. Guys that will wine and dine you and then steal all your coins. Oh you know they are represented.

Margay (22:41)

Cause representation matters.

Nicole (22:43)

I'm joined by guests like Nicole Byer, Ira Madison, I, Conan o' Brien and more. Join the congregation and listen to Scam Goddess wherever you get your podcasts.

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Nicole (23:53)

As RFK Jr. S anti vaccine conspiracy theories took center stage at today's hearing, the Health and Human Services Secretary was asked if he could tell between what was a real hoax and what was not. Once again, here's Democratic Senator Maria Cantwell.

Senator Maria Cantwell (24:11)

Do you think the women on the steps of the Capitol were a hoax yesterday?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (24:15)

I don't know about any women on the steps of the Capitol.

Senator Maria Cantwell (24:18)

The women who were talking about Epstein, do you think they were a hoax yesterday?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (24:21)

Do I think they were.

Senator Maria Cantwell (24:22)

Do you think they were perpetrating a hoax yesterday?

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (24:25)

Perpetuating a hoax? Yeah. I have no idea what they were saying. This is the first I'm hearing about it.

Senator Maria Cantwell (24:31)

You're first that you're hearing about the women on the Capitol steps saying that they believe that the Epstein information should be made public. That's the first you're hearing about it? What I'm saying is you are perpetrating hoaxes. You as the Secretary of Health. So you're undermining the whole health care delivery system. And you keep trying to point to chronic disease, but you're not putting solutions on the table to cover more Americans. And you're taking away the science and technology that has made us the leader that has saved, according to the first Trump administration surgeon general, millions of lives. And you don't want to keep that going.

Nicole (25:10)

Joining us now is the aforementioned Senator Maria Cantwell from Washington. Thank you so much for being here.

Senator Maria Cantwell (25:17)

Thank you.

Nicole (25:19)

Today was extraordinary and I think a real inflection point in just how dangerous the second Trump term is. He serves at the pleasure of Donald Trump. Donald Trump could end it today. What are your thoughts coming out of today's hearing?

Senator Maria Cantwell (25:34)

Well, I think if you actually went back to his nomination hearing, you would see that a lot of people ask this very question, what do you really believe? And what are you going to follow? And are you going to follow science? So a lot of people on my side of the aisle didn't buy it when he said he was going to create the gold standard for science. We didn't believe it. Some people on the other side, you know, took him at his word. But now here we are many months later, and we see the effects of him gutting really 100 years of science when it comes to vaccines. Literally saying, you know, things about measles that are not helping us fight what is. A growing number of measles outbreaks in the United States of America, confusing parents and certainly taking money away from one of the most successful vaccination efforts ever by getting a speedy response, as your last guest just articulated in why the technology that was the basis for the COVID response was so important in saving millions of lives.

Nicole (26:36)

Senator, Republicans have gone along with all sorts of things that as an ex Republican, I know they don't believe in when it comes to tariffs, to pandering to Vladimir Putin, to all sorts of things. But going along with RFK to was next level. Let me show you some of that regret that came through today. This is Senator John Barrasso.

Dr. Jeremy Faust (27:05)

So over the last 50 years, vaccines are estimated to have saved 154 million lives worldwide. I support vaccines. I'm a doctor. Vaccines work. Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks. Leadership in the National Institute of Health questioning the use of MRNA vaccines. The recently confirmed director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on.

Nicole (27:40)

So unlike folks like yourself, Mr. Barrasso, could do something. I mean, they could commence impeachment hearings. They could go to Donald Trump, Trump and say Hamas. Do you think they will?

Senator Maria Cantwell (27:51)

Well, I think the jig is up. You know, we had two Republican doctors today questioning Secretary Kennedy and basically saying, you are not following the science. And obviously as physicians, they know very well the role the vaccine has played in the history in saving American lives. And so they are questioning him. I hope, I hope that more of my Republican colleagues will join in, in that questioning. They too could send a letter to the president saying they are concerned about the cuts in vaccinations and backing away from this kind of health care. So I hope that they do. Look, we do not want an undermining of our entire health care system. We do not want, okay, you don't want to implement Medicaid expansion, You don't want to support the aca, you don't want to support vaccines. You know, it becomes an ever increasing burden on the health care of the American public by not standing up in support of these important initiatives.

Nicole (28:52)

What do you have to say to Donald Trump directly about someone who he appointed who undermines and obviously doesn't believe in what is his crowning achievement of his first term of president, the development of the first COVID vaccine.

Senator Maria Cantwell (29:09)

Your secretary could not defend you today. He didn't defend you. He didn't defend you on a warp speed effort by your first administration to get an action plan, which is really quite remarkable in the research that led to a vaccination that yes, a million people died, but 3 million people could have died. And so that is what's remarkable about what happened. And he could not say that that was also a remarkable accomplishment. So we should be proud of that science. We should be supporting more of that science. We are not done with flu pandemics. We are not done with other types of issues that could affect the United States or globally. And why would we want to be sitting around in a few years going, gosh, we don't have any sort of solutions here. Let's call up the Europeans or the Canadians or somebody else and get the solution because we didn't invest. So I come from a great technology state and a great investor in NIH research and cooperation together. And that's the kind of leadership that we want to see nationally. We don't want confused parents sending their kids to school wondering if their kids are going to get the meat.

Nicole (30:24)

Can you explain what happens when vaccines are undermined? It's not just that they're not mandated, it's that Once doubt is cast, a parent with a very young child maybe misses a couple in a series, and then that child is not fully protected at a very young age. It's not just that they're not available for purchase, but people who can't afford them or maybe aren't sure if it's worth it don't have access to covered vaccines. Can you just explain the long line of what happens after someone like RFK calls them into question?

Senator Maria Cantwell (31:05)

Well, it didn't take a lot during COVID for people to put some crazy ideas on the Internet about what you could take to deal with COVID And people actually did it and died. So we don't need somebody in a key health care position basically misinforming the public about the risks of not getting a vaccination. And he's promulgating a notion that somehow you don't have to take it and we could underinvest and that that underinvestment is somehow going to meet the challenge of the next disease. And so, again, we have 100 years of history, as I pointed out in that chart. We have what happened in the 20th century and we know what's happened in the 21st century, and we've eradicated some of these diseases. But now he's opening the door for them to potentially be another sizable event and have a healthcare expert on talking about the unbelievably harsh outcomes of measles. It's just, it's so sad and to think that you, we don't have to live through this, but now we're seeing a rise even in my state. And we had the last measle death several years ago in my state. So I do not want to see doubt permeate an environment and have a huge increase in the measles cases, which we are seeing a rise in in the United States.

Nicole (32:27)

Senator Cantwell, thank you for confronting RFK Jr. With the truth and for joining us to talk about it. We're grateful.

Senator Maria Cantwell (32:36)

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Nicole (32:38)

Just ahead for us, Donald Trump pressuring the United States Supreme Court to save his unpopular and costly and unlawful tariff regime. One of our next guests says it amounts to blackmail. We'll bring you that story next.

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Nicole (34:31)

Selling today the fate of Donald Trump's likely illegal and politically inexplicable tariff regime, which amounts to tax hikes on thousands of goods Americans consume daily, is now in the hands of the United States Supreme Court. The Trump administration late yesterday evening asked the Supreme Court to overturn an appeals court ruling preventing the Trump administration from implementing Trump's tariffs using emergency powers. Politico is reporting that the Trump administration's public comments and filings to the Supreme Court border an attempt to pressure the court. No matter how weak the Trump administration's legal arguments are, Politico reporting this quote, the desperation is both palpable and warranted given the conspicuous weakness of the Trump administration's legal arguments, as underscored by a series of lower court rulings against him that has in turn led the president and his aides to make increasingly histrionic public claims. This should all be seen for what it is, a tacit admission that the administration is on very weak footing as a legal matter. A less generous read at the situation is that this is an effort to politically blackmail the court into giving Trump what he wants, even if it is clearly unlawful or unconstitutional. The Trump administration's emergency tariffs have been on weak legal footing from the start, and the government's arguments have not gotten any better over time. What is less clear is whether the Supreme Court, which has shown Trump's stunning deference again and again, will care. This alarming warning comes as federal judges in an unprecedented interview are speaking out about their frustration about the deference as the Supreme Court overturns their rulings over and over and over again with little to no explanation. The justices warn that the practice has undermined the entire judiciary. NBC News reports this quote, a dozen federal judges appointed by Democratic and Republican presidents, including Trump and serving around the country, pointed to a pattern they say has recently emerged. Lower court judges are handed contentious cases involving the Trump administration. They paint research the law to reach their rulings. When they go against the Trump administration, officials and allies criticize the judges in harsh terms. The government appeals to the supreme court with its 6:3 conservative majority, and then the Supreme Court in emergency ruling, swiftly rejects the judge's decisions with little or no explanation. Joining us now, David Frum. He's a staff writer for the Atlantic. He's the host of the video podcast the David Frum show and Politico magazine, senior writer and author of the Rule of Law column, Ankush Khadori. Mark Gay is still with us. David Duphrome, we worked with Brett Kavanaugh, one of Trump's picks of the Supreme Court, and we've all watched as his other picks and a couple of the folks that George W. Bush appointed to the court seemingly nod along with some of the most excessive things that Donald Trump does. What do you make of these judges speaking out in this new interview with NBC News?

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Well, this tariff case involves maybe the most extreme thing that Donald Trump has ever done in this way. If there's one idea that runs through the American legal tradition and before that the English legal tradition, is that the executive cannot impose taxes without the consent of the legislature. When Charles I in England did it in the 1600s, the English cut off his head. When George III tried to do it in his own way, the United States started the American Revolution. This is the foundational idea. It's an article one of the Constitution, one for a reason. No taxes have to be approved by Congress and tariffs are taxes. Donald Trump has invented this completely ludicrous theory about how he is entitled to impose this massive tax. And to give you an idea of how big the tax he's imposed illegally is you've heard a lot about this no tax on tips promise. Now, most people don't know that promise expires at the end of 2028, but the total value of the no tax on tips commitment is about $32 billion before it expires at the end of 2028. The Trump administration has taken that much money in illegal tariffs just in the month of August, $30 billion in illegal taxes in August, which entirely offset the holiday they claim to have given to working Americans. And so there's a lot at stake here. One of the foundational principles of Anglo American law. If the court lets Donald Trump get away with this, you just might as well take tear Article 1 out of the Constitution because Congress has lost control of the taxing power.

Nicole (39:22)

What is seems like it is also, David, a really good illustration. If you wanted to do a political science experiment and say, what happens to the country if Congress goes away? Let's take them off. Let's take away all the things they used to do. What would happen? I mean, how much of the pressure on the judiciary is because of the absence of a functioning Congress?

Podcast Advertiser/Host (39:50)

That's probably very true. It's also true that Donald Trump has created a huge, huge mess and is now defying the courts to do something about the mess. And let me just give you a concrete example. On August 22, I happened to place a small purchase with a company in the United Kingdom. My good look, I did it on August 22nd. That's the last day packages were able to come from Europe on DHL to the United States. Dhl, Europe's largest carriers, won't do business in the United States because who knows what the laws are in that crazy banana republic over there. So I paid for my small purchase and a week later I get a note. I owe$26.5 in taxes. So that's the illegal tax that my 2605. Now, it happens in that case that if the law wins, that DHL can try to get its money back from the United States government and pay me back my $26.05 in illegal taxes. But most of Americans are paying taxes. They don't even see you buy a new car. It's just riddled with illegal taxes. How do you disentangle that mess? How does everybody get back their money? And even if the person who paid the tax till the government somehow gets his or her money back, the ultimate consumer who is cheated because of the illegal tax, they're not going to get a break on $26 off the price of their new automobile. Whatever it is, you just can't disentangle it. So someone is going to be wrongfully enriched. And Trump is saying that wrong person unwrongfully enriched should be the United States government because, well, why not?

Nicole (41:21)

It's insane. And it is worth freeze framing on all of this and really understanding the nonsense in terms of the arguments being made before this goes to the Supreme Court. Everyone sticks around. I have to sneak in a quick break. We'll bring in the rest of the panel on the other side. We're back with David Ankish and Mara Ankish's headline today in Politico. Trump is trying to blackmail the Supreme Court, writing that the legal arguments for Trump's tariffs are so weak, he's trying to make the case that rejection would bring ruin. Ankish, let me read a little bit more from your piece. Quote, the Trump administration's arguments about the impact of a loss on foreign relations are in a way almost precisely backwards. It may be true that a Supreme Court ruling against the administration would hurt its diplomatic standing, and that is because foreign governments may have been the victims of a global policy initiative that was illegal all along. If Trump officials end up being embarrassed, they will have earned it for themselves. Republicans on Capitol Hill have let Trump have his way pretty much all year. The fact that they will not bail him out here is telling. Will the Republican appointees on the Supreme Court do it instead? We're about to find out. Explain.

David Frum (42:34)

Well, look, I mean, this whole tariff exercise, whatever you want to call it, has just seems to have massively disrupted our diplomatic relations and these foreign governments are upset about it. And the administration has sort of said, well, look, if you take this power away from us, you know, our standing in the world is going to be reduced. I'm not even sure that's true. I think actually a bunch of foreign countries might welcome it and might welcome it as an affirmation of this country's commitment to the rule of law. But beyond that, we also have a situation where, you know, the Republicans in Congress have been effectively on the sidelines, intentionally on the sidelines throughout this second term, letting Trump get away with, you know, slashing whole swaths of the federal government, terminating grants, confirming people like RFK Jr. To be the head of the HHS. And on this particular subject, they have been conspicuously silent and not willing to bail Trump out. All they it would be a very simple matter either to codify the tariffs that Trump wants or to pass a law that would give him the authority the wide ranging authority that I think he needs to do what he's been doing. And they haven't done that. And the reason, I suspect, is because the tariffs are very unpopular. They're hurting people financially. And the Republicans probably don't want to take a vote on this because they know it'd be extremely unpopular. And they've been taking a series of votes already this year that I think a lot of them are going to have to reckon with in the 2026 midterms. And this would be another one. And so the question to me is, you know, they're not going to do it for him this time. The Supreme Court has been very deferential to Trump over the course of this year, handed him a series of pretty robust serious victories in his effort to sort of fire people at all levels of the government, from the most senior people and independent agencies to the rank and file all the way down. And this is one they're not willing to touch with a 10 foot pole in Congress. But the Supreme Court may ultimately side with him, it remains to be seen. I mean, I'd like to believe that the strength of the legal arguments against the tariffs, I have to say I think these arguments are unusually strong. We do not normally see a situation where you can easily map out the conservative path to the result and the liberal path to the result and that they converge on the same conclusion. But at the same time, I always just hearken back to the Trump immunity decision last year when folks want to sort of think about, oh, are the justices going to do what they say? Are they going to be textualists, are they going to be originalists, as they say? And you know, in the Trump immunity decision, we saw six conservative justices who claim to be textualists and originalists issue a decision with no basis in the text of the Constitution and no credible basis in the country's founding or the framer's expectation when they drafted the Constitution. So, you know, I always got to keep an open mind. I encourage other people to keep an open mind because I just, you know, you look at that decision and you just have to say that these six justices are prepared to toss aside their purported methodological commitments under the right political circumstances.

Nicole (45:40)

And they don't stand before the voters ever. But there are consequences to their really historic low views in terms of the public's trust and confidence in them. And I'll tell you about that from Gallup on the other side of a very short break. We'll be right back. Margaret Gallup has the lowest approval rating for the Supreme Court since it's been asking the question for the first time in the history of the Gallup Poll, public approval for the supreme court is under 40%. Yeah.

Margay (46:19)

Because Americans have seen time and time again that unfortunately, the Supreme Court seems more interested in giving deference to this particular president. Just this president.

Nicole (46:30)

Right.

Margay (46:30)

Just this president. Than standing up for the Constitution. And this is an inflection point, too, with the tariffs. It's a chance for the Supreme Court to show that it is an institution that still matters in American life and democracy and isn't just one more institution that's willing to corrupt itself or to be weaponized against democracy.

Nicole (46:51)

That's amazing. To be continued. David from Ankish Kadori Margay, thank you for being part of our coverage today. Up next for us, why some of Donald Trump's biggest backers will not let the Jeffrey Epstein story and questions around it go away. The next hour of Deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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