Podcast Summary: "Under Withering Questioning"

Podcast: Deadline: White House
Host: Nicolle Wallace
Date: September 5, 2025

Overview of the Episode

This episode focuses on a dramatic Senate Finance Committee hearing where Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.)—a known vaccine skeptic appointed by former President Trump—faces intense bipartisan scrutiny over his stances on vaccine safety, public health policy, and the contradictions inherent in his public actions and statements. Host Nicolle Wallace is joined by Dr. Jeremy Faust (Harvard Medical School), Margay (New York Times opinion writer and MSNBC analyst), and, later, Senator Maria Cantwell (D-WA), who directly challenged RFK Jr. in the hearing.

The second half of the episode shifts to a discussion about former President Trump’s controversial emergency tariff regime, now before the Supreme Court, and considers the broader implications for constitutional governance and the public perception of the judiciary.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Senate Grilling of Secretary RFK Jr. on Vaccines and Public Health

Political and Scientific Contradictions (01:21 – 07:43)

• RFK Jr.'s Senate Testimony:
  • RFK Jr. struggles under questioning from both Democrats and Republicans. Senators pointed out the contradiction between his public statements attacking vaccine safety and his new praise for Trump’s "Operation Warp Speed."
  • Senator Bill Cassidy (R) draws out the contradictions:
    • “You just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than Covid… But you support Operation Warp Speed?”
      — Cassidy (02:51)
    • RFK Jr. repeatedly denies having said the most inflammatory anti-vaccine statements, but senators challenge him with his own record.
  • RFK Jr. alternates positions:
    • When pressed, he equivocates, at times praising the vaccine rollout, other times reiterating skepticism about its benefits and safety.

Data and Science vs. Conspiracy (04:03 – 07:43)

• Senator Maria Cantwell (D) accuses RFK Jr. of smokescreen:
  • Cantwell exposes that Kennedy is proposing to "eliminate the center at the CDC that focuses on chronic diseases," using chronic disease as an excuse to gut vaccine programs.
  • “You’re interrupting me. And, sir, you’re a charlatan. That’s what you are. You’re the one who conflates chronic disease with the need for vaccines." (07:12)

Expert Reaction – Dr. Jeremy Faust (07:43 – 16:13)

• Failure to Defend Science:
  • Dr. Faust: “...the American people saw that our nation's top health official cannot seem to say directly in a clear way that vaccines save lives.” (08:56)
  • He laments RFK Jr.'s undermining of the vaccine infrastructure and the gold-standard scientific process that has kept Americans safe for decades.
  • "This is like trying to plan a mission to Mars, but having it led by someone who's a flat-earther.” (09:55)
• Trump vs. Kennedy Legacy:
  • Faust points out that Kennedy threatens to undermine the one major public health achievement of Trump’s first term.

Bipartisan Alarm (12:35 – 14:29)

• Bipartisan Consensus Against RFK Jr.:
  • “I was at the pediatrician this morning. I trust my pediatrician and I sure as hell don't trust that guy. But what should people do?”
    — Wallace (14:15)
  • Faust explains the CDC’s legal role in vaccine access for children and the threat of Kennedy’s policies to public health, especially for the most vulnerable.

The Stakes and Historical Context (16:13 – 19:34)

• Margay draws a direct line from the pandemic to today’s risks.
  • “As someone who got sick...before these vaccines were available...a lot of people haven't [recovered]. If Secretary Kennedy does care about chronic illnesses, 20 million Americans plus have been diagnosed with long Covid.” (16:46)
  • Advocates trusting personal physicians and laments the endangerment of chronic disease prevention research.

2. The Political Fallout & Senate Reaction

Senator Maria Cantwell’s Response (25:10 – 32:36)

• Cantwell reflects on Kennedy’s confirmation:
  • “If you actually went back to his nomination hearing, you would see...what do you really believe? Are you going to follow science? So a lot of people on my side of the aisle didn’t buy it...now…we see the effects of him gutting really 100 years of science when it comes to vaccines.” (25:34)
• Republican Regret:
  • “We had two Republican doctors today questioning Secretary Kennedy...I hope more of my Republican colleagues will join in.” (27:51)
• Direct Message to Trump:
  • “Your secretary could not defend you today…He didn’t defend you on a warp speed effort by your first administration to get an action plan…He could not say that was also a remarkable accomplishment.” (29:09)
• Consequences of Vaccine Doubt:
  • Cantwell warns of rising measles cases, the resurgence of preventable diseases, and confusion for parents when vaccine access is limited and public health authorities are undermined. (31:05)

3. Judicial Showdown: Trump’s Emergency Tariffs and Supreme Court Power

Trump’s Tariff Regime Before SCOTUS (34:31 – 46:51)

• Host Nicolle Wallace puts Trump’s “likely illegal” tariff regime in context:
  • “This amounts to tax hikes on thousands of goods Americans consume daily...the Trump administration’s public comments and filings to the Supreme Court border an attempt to pressure the court...a tacit admission that the administration is on very weak footing as a legal matter.” (34:31)
• David Frum and Ankush Khadori Analysis:
  • Frum explains the constitutional gravity:
    • “If there’s one idea that runs through the American legal tradition...the executive cannot impose taxes without the consent of the legislature.” (37:52)
  • Khadori connects Congressional abdication to judicial overload and the risk of the Supreme Court becoming a political actor.
  • Both highlight how the legal arguments against Trump’s tariffs are unusually strong and enjoy both conservative and liberal legal support—but with little confidence the current Court will act objectively.

Erosion of Public Trust in the Supreme Court (46:19 – 46:51)

• Gallup poll revealed historic lows in public confidence in the Supreme Court (<40%), which guests attribute to the perception that justices have bent the law to suit Trump’s interests.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Nicolle Wallace:
  • “On Capitol Hill today, an explosive collision between reality and science and logic on one side and, on the other, a conspiracy theory peddling crackpot accused of being a, quote, predator, by a member of his own family.” (01:21)
• Senator Maria Cantwell (to RFK Jr.):
  • “You’re interrupting me. And, sir, you’re a charlatan. That’s what you are.” (07:12)
• Dr. Jeremy Faust:
  • “This is like trying to plan a mission to Mars, but having it led by someone who's a flat-earther.” (09:53)
  • “He is making choices that will...Millions of lives are in the balance here and it's coming from the federal government, which is alarming.” (10:44)
• Margay:
  • “We did lose over a million people to the pandemic...These vaccines saved lives. We know that. We know that they are overwhelmingly safe.” (16:46)
• David Frum:
  • “If the court lets Donald Trump get away with this [tariffs], you just might as well tear Article 1 out of the Constitution because Congress has lost control of the taxing power.” (39:22)
• Ankush Khadori:
  • “The question to me is...the Supreme Court has been very deferential to Trump over the course of this year...But at the same time...I always got to keep an open mind...when you just have to say that these six justices are prepared to toss aside their purported methodological commitments under the right political circumstances.” (44:14)
• Margay:
  • “Unfortunately, the Supreme Court seems more interested in giving deference to this particular president...than standing up for the Constitution...it's a chance for the Supreme Court to show that it is an institution that still matters in American life and democracy.” (46:19)

Segment Timestamps

• Opening & Setup: 01:21 – 02:44
• RFK Jr. Hearing & Testimony: 02:44 – 07:43
• Dr. Jeremy Faust and Margay Analysis: 07:43 – 19:34
• Senator Maria Cantwell Interview: 25:10 – 32:36
• Tariffs and Supreme Court Segment: 34:31 – 46:51
• Closing Reflections: 46:19 – End

Tone and Language

The episode swings between incredulous, urgent, and fierce, with Wallace, her guests, and especially Senator Cantwell and Dr. Faust speaking with exasperation and alarm about what they view as clear and present dangers to public health and constitutional order. The language is direct, unvarnished, and at times scathing—reflective of the stakes and the sense of exasperation among both policymakers and experts at the direction of federal governance under Trump and RFK Jr.'s stewardship.

Conclusion

This edition of Deadline: White House illuminates the increasing collision of politics and science in American governance, underscoring the dangers posed by elevating conspiracy theories to the highest ranks of public health and the perilous risks to legal structures when executive power is left unchecked. The episode ends with a forecast that both legislative and judicial branches are at critical junctures—with democracy and public health hanging in the balance.