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Deadline: White House
“Unprecedented crackdown”
00:43:52
Nicolle Wallace on Trump's announcement to send the National Guard to Memphis, his impact on the economy, and Missouri passing a new Congressional map.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
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- [01:09]
Nicole Wallace
Hi there everyone. It's now five o' clock in New York. The announcement this morning by Donald Trump that law enforcement in Utah had apprehended the suspected shooter in Charlie Kirk's murder was the biggest headline he made this morning on the Fox and Friends couch. But it was not the only headline he made. The President also announced that he will be sending National Guard troops to another American city as part of his administration's unprecedented crackdown. Democratic led cities this time it is a city in a red state. It is the city of Memphis, Tennessee. Here is what he said about that this morning.
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Ron Insana
We're going to Memphis. Memphis is deeply troubled and the mayor is happy. He's a Democrat mayor. The mayor is happy and the governor Tennessee. The governor is happy, deeply troubled. We're going to fix that just like we did Washington. So we're going to Memphis. I'm just announcing that now and we'll straighten that out. National Guard and anybody else we need. And by the way, we'll bring in.
- [02:06]
Nicole Wallace
The military too, if we need it. This afternoon, Memphis Mayor Paul Young held a press conference in which he makes clear that he did not ask for the National Guard to be deployed to his city and that he did not believe it is the way to bring down crime in his city. Young also said that as mayor, he does not have the authority to stop troops from being deployed. So his goal is to make sure that as they come that he has an opportunity to work with them on how they engage in his community. The state's Republican governor, Bill Lee, seemed to indicate support for Donald Trump's plan, saying this quote, I have been in constant communication with the Trump administration to develop a multiphased strategic plan to combat crime in Memphis, leveraging the full extent of both federal and state resources. The next phase will include a comprehensive mission with the Tennessee National Guard, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Tennessee Highway Patrol, Memphis Police Department and other law enforcement agencies. And we are working closely with the Trump administration to determine the most effective role for each of these agencies to best serve Memphis. If the plan goes through, it would be the first time the Trump administration would be sending federal resources to a state with a Republican governor since Donald Trump's return to office. Memphis has the highest violent crime rate of any American city with a population of 100,000 residents or more, according to an Axios analysis of 2024 FBI statistics. That is where we start the hour. Some of our favorite experts and friends, Tennessee State Representative Justin Pearson is here. His district includes parts of the city of Memphis. Also joining us, the host of the Bulwark Podcast, MSNBC political analyst Tim Miller is here. And with me at the table for the hour, host of Politics Nation, right here on msnbc, president of the national network, the Reverend Al Sharpton. Rev, it's been a week. We wanted to lift up this news as well. What does this mean for the residents of Memphis?
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Reverend Al Sharpton
I think that Mayor Young of Memphis said it right, that he did not request it. How will it be coordinated? I talked to a couple of people that National Action Network has a chapter there, and some had just come up for the Wall street march who don't welcome those in the civil rights community. You have to remember just two years ago, Tyrese Nichols was beat to death by police in Memphis. So we're going in with National Guard or whoever, where the police department in and of itself is under question. So the coordinating of that and the fact that we're dealing with a new trial, possibly on the policeman that beat Nichols also plays into this. So for the governor to be saying one thing, another city with a black mayor, another, and the fact is, yes, all of us want to see crime dealt with, but how do you do it? And who do you do it with? And do you look the other way when you have policemen who become criminal themselves, as happened in the case of Tyre Nichols?
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Nicole Wallace
How do you take all those issues on in a way that serves the community?
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Reverend Al Sharpton
I think the way you do it is you have the community speak up and organize and mobilize, as I'm sure some of the leadership there that I talked to today is planning to do. And I'm sure that there will be those that will resist. Let us remember there was a lot of resistance in Chicago. And all of a sudden he's not going to Chicago, he's going to Memphis. So you can't always believe that Donald Trump cannot be moved certain ways. 2020, when we had the biggest demonstrations we've seen since the 60s, he was president. We had 1, 200,000 people in Washington during COVID And so I don't understand why people are afraid to organize against somebody that they've successfully already organized against before. The reason he's not going to Chicago.
- [06:03]
Nicole Wallace
It works.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
It works.
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Nicole Wallace
Representative Pierson, take us inside. Your reaction to this news made this morning. Did you know about it before you heard the president make this announcement publicly?
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Representative Justin Pearson
Yeah, a lot of people across the city had heard rumors that this was a possibility. But look, let's just call this what it is. It is the overreach of the President of the United States into another major black city. This is a perpetuation of authoritarian actions that we have seen happening in Los angeles, in Washington D.C. threatened in Chicago. We are seeing the playing out of white supremacist ideology against black led and majority black cities all across our country. And it is deeply worrisome. No one here is excited about it or happy about it. It is devastating, it is harmful, it's anti democratic and it is un American. So we are organizing, we are meeting, we are determining what our next steps and our actions can be. But we have to be vehemently opposed to the overreach and the overarching actions of this administration into our communities, especially black African American communities that are overwhelmingly being targeted by Trump, by Governor Bill Lee, and we cannot stand for it. And so I am grateful to all of the organizers and leaders in our city who are standing up and speaking up and fighting back. But we also have to recognize today, he says, that he's sending the National Guard because of crime in 14 months is going to be to protect the midterm elections in a few years is going to be about the presidential election. These overreaches in power scare all of us because our democracy is at stake.
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Nicole Wallace
Representative Pierson, they deploy an issue that since the beginning of politics is powerful and it is the issue of crime. And this is just some of the reporting about the statistics. And I just want to ask you to contextualize this for us. This is from Axios. The latest numbers show Memphis had a violent crime rate of 2,501 per 100,000 residents last year, nearly seven times the national average. And Axios analysis found that Memphis also had the country's fourth highest homicide rate of 40.6 per 100,000 residents, six times the national average. What is your message from Memphis about your ability to deal with this without the military?
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Representative Justin Pearson
Does their report mention poverty? Does it mention the lack of economic opportunity? Does the report mention that in our state, Governor Bill Lee, the Republican supermajority have passed laws consistently that have weakened gun restrictions and regulations that have made our communities less safe. You can't have a conversation about crime or criminality without talking about poverty, the lack of economic opportunities, the lack of educational resources. And this administration and Governor Bill Lee and the Republican Party in Tennessee have consistently prevented Memphis and Shelby county from getting resources to actually deal with the root causes of poverty. And again, we are seeing the idea that black cities and criminality are somehow always commingled that perpetuates a racist narrative that has been a part of the Trump administration but a part of the American political dialogue for much too long. We have to be honest about the root causes of the problem and invest billions of dollars into that. We don't need militarization. What we need is investment by the billions of resources into our community. And if you address education, economic opportunity, give people good living wage and thriving wage jobs, you won't have issues that we have had with crime. We know that it is concerned. It is a problem. It has to be addressed. But you can't address it with military occupation. We need to address it with real investments.
- [09:38]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Reb, I mean, the rest of the Trump agenda is moving in the other direction. I mean, the big beautiful bill takes funds away from just about every category the representative just described.
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Reverend Al Sharpton
No, it is not only not moving in the direction to deal with these issues, they're defunding present issues, which happened in Washington, D.C. which happened in Chicago. So I think that clearly to try and act as though that these problems that exist, exist in isolation without the social context of the city is absolutely erroneous. I think that we've got to do both. And I don't know anybody that supports crime, but I also don't know anybody that doesn't understand their underlying issues that you want to deal with. And again, you have to deal with the problem of policing in Memphis and in other cities because to say you're coming after crime, you want to come after criminals in blue jeans and blue uniforms and the underlying issues that cause crime in the first place.
- [10:45]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Miller, I want to bring you into this. I think it was the mayor of Chicago, who said in a live press conference there after Donald Trump had threatened to go into Chicago, he said, I think the quote was something like chicago will have a crime problem as long as red states have a gun problem. That problem is in our faces as folks in the political arena and as folks in the news business almost every day, obviously with the high profile shooting this week of Charlie Kirk. But on the same day there was a school shooting. Back to school ushers in a tragic season of school shootings. And I wonder what your thoughts are about any opportunity in this moment to include a conversation about guns.
- [11:34]
Tim Miller
Well, I think we have to include a conversation about guns. Whether or not it goes anywhere, I don't know. But you know, this is a uniquely American crisis. It's a uniquely American problem. In some of these cases, you know, gun laws might not have made any addition difference. And the case in Utah was a bolt action rifle and it was somebody that's over 21 and they only fired one shot. And I think there's probably a lot of other things about our culture we could get into with that assassination attempt. But a lot of these other ones, that has not been the case. And there have been common sense gun laws that could have stopped this. And I think that there was a period of time in the past where both parties had much more healthy responses to this kind of violence that were politically popular. And the Democrats, I think were really in the sweet spot when they were talking about supporting more funding for police and getting and simultaneously getting guns out of the hands of criminals. Getting guns out of the hands of people didn't want them. The assault weapons ban. And it's like the 90s Democratic platform that I think was very popular. The Republicans, after the Parkland shooting, it was Rick Scott, who's in the Senate, who passed red flag laws. Right. So this isn't that long ago, right. That we had common ground on this. But people have really given up on it. And I think it's because people are so beaten down. I understand why people are beaten down by this. They feel like there's no solution. As you mentioned, I feel like every back to school year after school season brings these ghoulish attacks and these horrible attacks and you don't want to deal with it and you don't want to, you know, go out there and bang your head against the wall for nothing. But that's like the nature of these kind of political movements. You know, things take time. And I do think that losing that conversation and immediately after these shootings, not talking about Guns and instead talking about rhetoric or, you know, talking about sending in the military. Right. Like there are all these other issues that are not going to solve the problem that come to the forefront. And I think it's important that we fight against that.
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Nicole Wallace
Amen. Let me follow up with you, though, Tim, about one of the other issues that Trump seems intent on normalizing. Again, this interview this morning was one where the big headline Trump seemed intent on making was the news about a suspect being in custody in the murder of Charlie Kirk. But until that incident, one of the biggest stories we've all been covering and grappling with is Trump's willingness to send the military into American cities. So let me read you this from Shelby county mayor urging the Republican governor to reconsider. Mayor Harris said local government would welcome federal and state help to fight crime, specifically noting Governor Lee's action sending more state troopers to Memphis. But he continued to have individuals with military fatigues, semiautomatic weapons and armored vehicles. Patrolling our streets is way too far anti Democratic and anti American. I think we're on the brink of something that is going to change all our appreciation for freedoms. The way you can take away Democratic liberties is to make sure people don't have a way to protest. And the way to do that is to patrol the streets with military vehicles. I'm not sure how many weeks it's been since Donald Trump rolled military vehicles and troops into the nation's capital, but there does seem to be an interest in making that look normal. And that is not normal.
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Tim Miller
Yeah, it isn't. And a resounding yes. And to the mayor there in Memphis, and I'll defer to my co panelist, Representative Pearson, on the details of Memphis, but at the broadest strokes, it's a similar story. Right. And he has discussed sending the troops into my city as well in New Orleans now, and similar story is playing out that might happen. And it is. It is this authoritarian cosplay. Right. It's just like they're putting on costumes and they want to seem tough as part of this slow rolling authoritarian takeover. Like that's what this is all about. It is not about crime. And I think that's just important to say, clearly this is not about solving crime. If you wanted to solve crime and you believe that more law enforcement are needed in these cities, and surely there are some cities where that's the case. The federal government and Congress could fund a cops bill and could fund, you know, community engagement programs. They could fund a bunch of stuff. They have a budget coming up. Here in two weeks, they control the House and the Senate. They control the White House. They want to act as if they have no agency when it comes to the actual policies of these cities. What they want to do is say they're going to blame the mayors of these predominantly back cities, say, we're going to send in the troops to deal with your problems because you can't deal with them. And we're not going to actually do anything that helps you. We're just going to try to scare and intimidate people, like that's what they're doing. I had my senator from here in Louisiana, John Kennedy, was talking about how Democratic mayors don't appreciate cops, and that's why we got to do this. I'm like, republicans run Louisiana. There is Republicans that run Tennessee. If you want more comps in Memphis, fund more cops in Memphis and New Orleans. If you want to do an authoritarian takeover and you want to do fascist, you know, costuming, then send in the troops. And I think that we can see what their real priorities are.
- [16:51]
Nicole Wallace
Representative Pearson, your reaction?
- [16:57]
Representative Justin Pearson
Yeah, I mean, look, we do not want to see our community being occupied by the military, and we don't want to see over policing. The solution to the problems that are being articulated is not to increase the number of police, is to increase the number of resources to actually reduce poverty, to actually educate our population, our children, for the opportunities of the future, and is to make that people have a living wage so that some of the crimes that they commit, literally for the need to survive, do not happen. We know that gun violence is one of the most significant issues and epidemics in our country. I got expelled because of it. Right. Children under 18 are most likely to die from a bullet than cancer or car accidents. That means laws have to change at the state level that Governor Bill Lee, Speaker Sexton, Lieutenant Governor Rand McNally need to work on to reduce the amount of access people have to firearms, and that reduces ultimately the amount of crimes that get committed. But you can't pass laws that say, hey, it's okay for you to have guns in your car. And then you complain about people breaking into cars for the firearms that they find there. We have to deal with the systemic root causes of the problems, and black communities should not be the place and the pawns for an authoritarian wannabe dictator, white supremacist gain. And that's what we're finding right now with Donald Trump and Bill Lee. And so our resistance has to be vocal, it has to be clear, it has to be coordinated, and it has to show people that we are serious about defending our democracy. These are not benign acts. They are all intentional in an effort to let us be lulled to sleep as our country moves from a democracy into an authoritarian dictatorship. This man cares only about his power, keeping it at all cost and running through any community and hurting all the people as he does it. In D.C. they brought the National Guard, but you know, also who came ice. We are going to see this repeating over and over again the terrorism of our communities and we have to stand united and we have to fight back against it. But if we do not deal with root causes of poverty, we will never solve the issues that ultimately lead to criminality. And if we do not deal with state houses that refuse to pass laws, because the National Rifle association, the Tennessee Firearms association and all the other ones have a hold on Governor Bill Lee, have a hold on all of these other elected officials like Cameron Sexton. If we do not deal with those root causes in our legislatures, we're going to see the proliferation of the perpetuation of gun violence in the ways that we have as well.
- [19:21]
Nicole Wallace
Rev. You get the last word.
- [19:22]
Reverend Al Sharpton
I think that the need to deal with the underlying issues is vital, particularly when you have a national administration that has been antithetical to the needs of people in Memphis or Chicago, Louisiana cutting the budgets, not just not funding them, cutting the budgets for programs that worked. And I think that it is very clear that there is an agenda here of normalizing federal takeover because if you can adjust people to well, it's normal by two or three months is normal, then when we get to the midterm elections, it'll be normal, saying, oh, we can't have mail ins and they're doing frauds at the box, at the ballot box and you go into 28. So this is the beginning of a normalization process of federal takeover. And the irony of this, Nicole, is these are from people who argued historically states rights that you shouldn't be imposing the federal government on the states. Now the states rights leaders are leading the federal takeover of states apparatus. If it smells, it might be because something is stinking.
- [20:36]
Nicole Wallace
State Representative Justin Pierson, thank you for joining us for this conversation. The Reverend Tim stick around. When we come back, how the Trump administration is once again moving the goalposts over when they take responsibility for our country's ailing economy. Inflation is up, grocery prices are at a four year high and even some of Donald Trump's most ardent supporters are sounding the alarms loudly. The Trump administration is still trying to blame Joe Biden will tell you what's wrong with that next. Also ahead, it is that bad economy and the political blowback that comes with it that is leading Republicans to seek to rig the midterm election elections. There's news today on that front as well. We'll get to it with our friend Marco Lias later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [21:21]
Representative Justin Pearson
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- [22:19]
Reverend Al Sharpton
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- [22:33]
Representative Justin Pearson
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- [22:36]
Nicole Wallace
The state of the American economy eight months into Donald Trump's presidency is growing increasingly bleak. Just yesterday, Reuters reported this quote, US Consumer inflation accelerates weekly jobless claims approach a four year high. Axios reported that quote, grocery inflation is the highest since 2022. As Trump tariffs pile up. Amid flashing warning signs like those, the Trump administration has come up with a response. Take a look.
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Representative Justin Pearson
Inflation in August ticking up to 4.3%, the highest since 21. Manufacturing activity shrank in August six months running. Unemployed workers exceeding job openings. If Biden had numbers like that, you'd be on Fox saying what's going on.
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Mark Elias
So the economy that Donald Trump owns starts at the end of this year.
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Tim Miller
You can't get well.
- [23:35]
Nicole Wallace
To the end of what in 2026. It doesn't work that way. Howard Letnick just two months ago posted this on social media. Quote, the Trump economy has officially arrived, end quote. Joining our conversation, CNBC contributor and publisher of the Message of the markets on Substack. Ron Insana is back. Tim and the Revver here. Ron, tell me what's happening in the economy and people's real economy. Like a day in the life. You fill up your car with gas, you go to the grocery store, you head to Walmart to pick up stuff for the kids and the house. What are you experiencing?
- [24:14]
Ron Insana
You're experiencing everything that was just stated by the gentleman Interviewing Howard Lutnick, which is that what we'd call this in economic terms is a sort of mini stagflation. You have inflation that is stuck above the Fed's 2% target and people at home are feeling it as food prices go up. Gasoline is pretty stable. But other prices for imported goods facing those import taxes that were put in place by the Trump administration are causing a degree of greater inflation. At the same time, the economy appears to be slowing down, particularly the labor markets where again, all those numbers that were thrown out suggest that we have more available workers than we have open jobs. Gen Z is being hit and being replaced to a certain extent, at least anecdotally by AI for some entry level positions. And so you have some disruptions in the labor market along with immigration, deportations that are affecting the size of the labor market and impacting companies and consumers around the nation. So it is a weaker economy than we saw last year and last year's economy was revised to be weaker than we thought then. So it's not getting stronger. And yes, Donald Trump would own it by now.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me show you what that looks like in this is a caller, a farmer calling into Sean Hannity's show talking about how desperate farmers in America are right now.
- [25:33]
Caller (Farmer)
I'm a third generation farmer and we have a silent epidemic in my opinion, about ready to explode in this country with our agriculture. It's projected by several magazines the next six months. Any farmer will 75% of us will have to take out some sort of bankruptcy. All of us are in the red. It's great we did doge and tariffs and that, but farmers always bear the brunt of it. But we have no farm bill in place. We have no anywhere for grain to get sold right now. All the contracts are canceled or on hold. We also export alfalfa. Those places are all in pause mode. All of our input costs the last two years are up 30, 40, 50%. And we're all just about ready to throw in the towel. We don't know what to do. And that's why I'm calling you for somewhere to get some Recognition of this is not a joke. This is really going to happen if we don't get some help.
- [26:36]
Nicole Wallace
I know sometimes the response is that, oh, they'll get bailed out. But when did it become part of our politics to destroy farming in America as collateral damage in Donald Trump's pet experiments with tariffs and Doge, as the farmer said in his own words, we.
- [26:56]
Ron Insana
Had this experiment that Nicole, as you recall, in the first Trump administration where farmers were bailed out to the tune of tens of billions of dollars as we were battling with China and others. Right now, China is buying absolutely no soybeans from the US Agricultural community. It's usually one of the biggest purchasers. So they turned to Brazil or another country instead to do just that. And so, so the farming community, the importing community, retail food and agricultural business, with food coming our way, is being tariffed or taxed rather heavily, and that's ending up in the consumer's lap as well. So, yeah, we have this rather toxic brew of policies at the moment that are weakening the economy and hitting certain sectors like agriculture, even harder than other parts of the economy.
- [27:39]
Nicole Wallace
Tim Miller, the Wall Street Journal op ed page. Not as powerful and influential as it once was, but I'll read it to you anyway. Quote, our friends on Wall street and in Washington keep saying that inflation is vanquished as they hope plead for lower interest rates. Yet the economic data aren't bearing out their optimism. As the Labor Department's consumer price report for August revealed Thursday, consumer prices climbed 0.4% in August, 2.9% over the past year, both the most since January. Trump's tariffs are clearly driving up some prices, especially in food and goods. Businesses report that they've run through inventory they stockpiled before Trump's tariff barrage and are starting to pass on their higher cost to consumers. At the same time, Trump's restrictive immigration policies are contributing to labor shortages, which may be pushing up wages and prices. It's a you know what storm it is all because of Donald Trump. This time in his first term, there was some blame you could attribute to a novel coronavirus pandemic. This is all because of Donald Trump's policy choices. Why do you think that the political laws of gravity leave it as some sort of political mystery whose fault it is? Why is Trump allowed so much running room with his voters and with Wall street that Democratic politicians are never allowed?
- [29:05]
Tim Miller
Well, I don't think that's a question about whether that will bear out over next year, and I think that there's some answers to that. I think that the Democrats, there's a hostility in the business community still among business elites, etc. Towards Democrats. And they feel like whatever, they can play ball with Trump so they think that he's a businessman that they can deal with. It's all this, I sound ridiculous even defending their point, but I think that is their perspective. And I think the question is, will they continue to hold that perspective if it gets worse and worse? Because I think the economy is right now bad in certain sectors, as the caller to Sean Hannity show mentioned, it's bad in the farm sector. I think it's bad for people on a fixed income who are still dealing with prices going up. It's bad in certain sectors. But if you're at Wall street, if you're one of the big tech CEOs, you're not really experiencing any tangible negative consequences at this point yet. And the question is, does the tune change if they start to. I think that's the, the problem that Howard Lutnick faces with his plan to try to take credit for it at the end of the year or whatever or next year getting worse. Yeah, the economy's getting worse and the inflation, as the Wall Street Journal mentioned, I think Ron mentioned a lot of companies were eating the cost a little bit, maybe in the hopes that the Supreme Court will overrule it or the better census will prevail. But eventually this stuff is going to be passed even more down to consumers. There's nothing else that Trump is doing that is going to help the economy. And none of the rest of the agenda is I hate them kind of retweeting the Wall Street Journal here. But everything that they laid out about the immigration regime, the one big beautiful bill, none of that is no relief is coming for working class people and their agenda. So I think the plan of wait till January is not going to go as well as they hope.
- [31:04]
Nicole Wallace
We'll put it on our calendars just in case I do. I mean, to Tim Miller's point, the polls, if you view them as one report card for Donald Trump suggests he's getting failing grades already. I'll show them to you. On the other side of a break, we'll talk about this political price that Trump is paying for betraying his voters and anyone who voted for him less than one year after Election Day when he said that the price of the grocery and everything would go down. We're going to squeeze in a break. We'll all be right back.
- [31:35]
Reverend Al Sharpton
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- [32:05]
Mark Elias
You can't count on much these days.
- [32:07]
Nicole Wallace
No way.
- [32:08]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Jim.
- [32:09]
Nicole Wallace
This is incredible.
- [32:10]
Mark Elias
But you can always count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount. Plus here we go this time for real. Watch your local NFL game live every Sunday all the way through the AFC championship game and he's in for a touchdown. Visit paramountplus.com NFL to get started today and count on Sundays with the NFL on CBS and Paramount.
- [32:35]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Halliday presents in the red corner, the undisputed undefeated weed whacker guy, champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger, Extra strength Hanaday. Eyedrops at work all day to prevent prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy eyes. And the winner by knockout is Hattie Hannaday. Bring it on.
- [33:07]
Nicole Wallace
Ron, Tim and the Rev are still with me. So Rev, here's the report card. This is Reuters poll on the economy approve of Trump's handling of the economy. Just 36% approve of Trump's handling and cost of living. 30%. That's this Week. That's some back to school shopping maybe. Terrible, terrible numbers for anyone. But a real political betrayal for someone who ran on stood in front of melting food at Bedminster and ran on the price of in his words, quote the grocery and said that he was.
- [33:41]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Going to change things day one. And he goes and not only fails in changing them, he puts tariffs and other things in place and this big beautiful bill that made it worse. I mean it's not like he had an economy that just went bad on him. He is the one that poked the bear. The tariffs and the bill is what has added to the numbers we're seeing. He was the one that said to people that the migrants are the ones we've got to get out the country. Well, he's put thousands out the country country. We've not seen unemployment go down. We've seen it go up. He said they had our black jobs. Black unemployment is higher now than it's been in many years. So where's our black jobs they were taking? So it is absolutely ludicrous. But at the same time I've been screaming to the Democrats why aren't y' all going out there in these red states in these areas and just talk about this, get around Trump, don't play into Trump's ego. Talk about basic things like your groceries are going up and you were told that would not happen. Your cost of living is going up. You were told that would not happen. You have farmers calling Sean Hannity and you don't have members of Congress understanding that we need to see y' all out there dealing with this.
- [35:01]
Nicole Wallace
What do they say when you suggest that? A brilliant suggestion.
- [35:04]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Good idea, Reverend. I mean it's frustrating. Some get it, but not enough. And it ought to be a general plan because the pain is there. All they is people that will doctor the pain.
- [35:17]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, I mean this is the tragedy, Ron. I mean the economic insecurity is worse today than it was 12 months ago when Donald Trump bested then Vice President Kamala Harris. On questions of who do you think would be better for the economy? What is your sense of what the coming months hold?
- [35:37]
Ron Insana
Well, you know, I think we're stuck here in the environment that I described earlier, which is, you know, the economy may be weakening, the labor market certainly is. Inflation is above the Fed's target and may accelerate as we get get into holiday shopping season. As you said earlier, many businesses have run down that huge pile of inventories that they accumulated before the tariffs went into effect. Puts more upward pressure on prices as we move towards the end of the year. And the Federal Reserve's probably cut interest rates now. That's the one saving grace is the stock market sitting at all time highs. And it makes some people, some people feel wealthier and maybe spend more. But this is an economy that's kind of stuck in limbo and you know, to maybe spin what was said during the Reagan years, you know, are you better off than you were one year ago? And I think the answer for a lot of people is no. And in fact interesting with respect to what Reverend Sharpton was saying. There are over 600,000 open manufacturing jobs in the United States even before any deportation that took place. It's not like we're seeing a rush of native born workers into the manufacturing sector. We have a skills issue. We have all kinds of problems with respect to our labor market that need to be addressed. Black unemployment at 7 1/2% is considerably higher than it was a year ago. And so I think it's a limp along economy that may get worse. And there is the risk of us slipping into recession in early 2026 if this persists for too long.
- [36:59]
Nicole Wallace
Rona, thank you for making us or me smarter. When we come back, Republicans once again seeking to eliminate a Democratic congressional district, all in service of helping themselves hold onto power in next year's midterm elections. Voting rights attorney, our friend Mark Elias is vowing to fight back. He's our next guest. Stay with us. The audacious and unprecedented Republican campaign to overcome Donald Trump's historic unpopularity by audacious gerrymandering just took another giant leap forward, or toward that audacious goal. Today, the Missouri Senate passed new congressional maps which would give Republicans an additional seat, skewing Missouri's 5th congressional district. Heavily Republican, that seat is currently held by Democratic Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, who had this warning for the Missouri legislature.
- [37:56]
Reverend Al Sharpton
But if we vote, as probably is going to happen, I hope all of us understand.
- [38:05]
Nicole Wallace
That.
- [38:08]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Decades and decades will be damaged by what goes on here. I want to warn all of us.
- [38:14]
Mark Elias
That if you fight fire with fire.
- [38:17]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Long enough, all you're going to have left is ashes.
- [38:22]
Nicole Wallace
Wow. Missouri is the latest state to cave to Donald Trump's demand to get him more congressional seats, but it is unlikely to be the last. Ohio, Florida, and Indiana have begun the same process of redrawing their maps. Joining our coverage, voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy Docket, Mark Elias joins us. Tim and the revver still here. Mark, I don't want this conversation to be awash in the hopelessness that I know some of viewers feel about these redistricting efforts with so many state legislatures in Republican control. So let's start where I usually follow up with your efforts to fight it.
- [39:01]
Mark Elias
Yeah, I don't do hopelessness. So, look, here's the deal. We need to be realistic, but we need to understand that we are in the fight and we can win. And I have the winds in my belt to prove that. Just ask Donald Trump after he tried to steal the 2020 election. We won 60 lawsuits. And frankly, you can ask Republicans about what it's like to run up against us in court in the area of redistricting. We have struck down Republican gerrymander after Republican gerrymander, and every time they try to steal seats or deprive minority voters their opportunity, we sue them. And that's what's going to happen now. I mean, the fact is we sued the state of Texas at 8am following their enactment of a map in the middle of the night. And that lawsuit is already set for a hearing on October 1st with plenty of time for the midterm elections. The state of Utah, their map got struck down and the court is set to redraw that map with probably adding a Salt Lake City district that would be a competitive city seat. And they're going to do that in October. And Missouri, I told them if they did this, they were going to get sued and now they're going to get sued. And if Ron DeSantis wants to follow suit, he's going to get sued again. And just ask the Republicans in Florida when they gerrymandered in the 2010 cycle how it wound up for them. When we were done, we wound up striking down their map, having fair maps for at least a period of time until they started re gerrymandering again. But look, I'm not saying we're gonna win everything. I'm not saying that in the end that Republicans won't pull off some of these anti Democratic maneuvers. But we cannot give up on the courts and we cannot give up the fight.
- [40:42]
Nicole Wallace
Explain to me how Governor Newsom in California, by taking new maps to the entire electorate of the state of California on the ballot measure, is avoiding the legal problems with the Republican led gerrymanders.
- [40:59]
Reverend Al Sharpton
Yeah.
- [41:00]
Mark Elias
So first of all, Gavin Newsom isn't looking to draw maps that disadvantage minority voters. Right. That is fundamentally what the state of Texas is doing. Fundamentally what the state of Texas decided is that it wants more white Republicans and it wants fewer minority. It wants minority voters to have fewer voting rights. And so Gavin Newsom isn't doing that, number one. Number two, as you point out, Gavin Newsom has put on a ballot in estrogen a question for the people of California, which they can vote on. And Republicans have already gone to court twice to try to block this in the state Supreme Court of California. And I kid you not, before I could gather the papers to intervene to defend what was going on and before the state of California even had to response, the California Supreme Court dismissed each of those petitions. That's how frivolous the claims are against California.
- [41:56]
Nicole Wallace
What other Democratic led states should be doing, what California is doing right now.
- [42:02]
Mark Elias
Look, you know me, I came on your show before Gavin Newsom announced what he was doing, before it became fashionable for Democrats to say we need to fight hard and we need to match or exceed what Republicans are doing. And I said I thought every Democratic state should should engage in this process. And let me tell you why, Nicole, because the only way to end this cycle of Republican impunity, that they think they can rig the maps and rig the voting rules and that there'll be no repercussions is if they understand that Democrats will not just match them. Democrats will not just equal them, but Democrats are willing to exceed them. And so to me, this ought to be the option on the table for every state where Democrats control the legislature and the governor. And by that I mean every state.
- [42:47]
Reverend Al Sharpton
State.
- [42:47]
Mark Elias
I don't mean most of the states. I don't mean all the states except for these that are really hard to do it. I mean all the states.
- [42:53]
Nicole Wallace
Have they called you? I mean, is that something that's happening behind the scenes?
- [42:58]
Mark Elias
You know, look, I get a lot of calls from a lot of people. I've represented Democrats in the House and Senate and governors and presidential. I've had the honor of representing presidential nominees and presidents. So I get calls by a lot of people in the Democratic Party. I get calls by a lot of people in states. But fundamentally my job as a lawyer. Lawyer is to ensure that there are free and fair elections and that, that Republicans are not able to rig the, the election rules, are not able to subvert the outcome of elections. That's what I did for Joe Biden after the 2020 election when Donald Trump tried to do it. That's what I've done in these tradition cases. And then my other job is as an advocate for democracy and you know, and speaking out with you and with others and being a cheerleader for the for to make sure that we do not simply accept what Republicans are doing as a status quo given, but rather we have, we have the tools in our arsenal to fight back.
- [43:53]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Tim Miller, this ties directly to your comments at the top of the hour about sort of either the intended effect or the knock on effect of normalizing tanks in American cities. That it either creates fear that is accepted, creates fear that people grow numb to and the whole thing is atmospheric leading up to the midterms and potentially the presidential election beyond that.
- [44:20]
Tim Miller
Yeah, look, I'll be uncharacteristically optimistic too on this last segment here.
- [44:25]
Mark Elias
Nicole.
- [44:25]
Tim Miller
Mark has inspired me. It's a Friday that has worked. It's not worked as much as we want. Right. But the pushback in the courts after LA has led to Trump backing off of Chicago. Like at the top of the air, why are we talking about Memphis? As Rev mentioned, at the top because of pushback in Chicago from Community, because of Kushacks in the courts after he invaded la. Now he's like looking like okay, this isn't worth, this is not worth the hassle. I'm going to look at maybe a more ripe target. Right. So that doesn't mean he's going to quit, but it means that you demonstrate that they will back down on various things. We talked about this before. They backed down on the El Salvador prison, the Gulag. They wouldn't have done that if people didn't speak up, if there weren't court, if there weren't legal attacks against them. Right now there's nobody in Sukkot that we sent there, so that's not a huge win. But it's better than the altern. They were planning on using that as a place to send lots of migrants. So I think that's true in this case, too. In the redistricting, it's tougher to Mark's point. And I think that Maryland should be doing this. I'll throw out the names of a couple of states. Illinois should be doing this. Fingers crossed that things go well in Virginia this year, in the fall. Maybe Virginia can look into it next year. So I think there are fewer states where Democrats can do this. But in the ones where they can, they should be. And I obviously, fully, wholeheartedly endorse Mark's effort to try to put some, what is it, tar in the spokes of the Republicans in these other states.
- [45:50]
Nicole Wallace
I did not have it on my bingo card. The two of you would be the optimism carriers. But I'll take it and get used to it. I'll take it this week. Mark Elias, thank you for joining us. Tim Miller, Reval, thank you for spending the whole hour with me today. When we come back, we'll bring you a bit of my brand new intervention with Just Michael. She's extraordinary. She is one of Jeffrey Epstein's survivors. She talked to me for the newest episode of the Best People podcast. I'll show you what that sounded like after a quick break. If you've ever wondered what a modern day profile in courage looks and sounds like, you have to meet Jess Michaels. She is a survivor of Jeffrey Epstein. She's a powerful advocate for other survivors of sexual assault. Watch. It feels like a level of humiliation hit me today that maybe I hadn't allowed myself to feel that literally all.
- [46:50]
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- [46:54]
Nicole Wallace
Looking at us as toys and as jokes and as playthings. I am doing this podcast in part because I am moved and inspired by everyone I have a chance to talk to on the podcast. But the Best People conversation with Jess Michaels, I have to say, changed me, changed what I think courage looks like to take the darkest moment of your life and share it with all of us. I think it will change you too. Scan the QR code on your screen and subscribe to MSNBC Premium to listen to this conversation right now and let me know what you think. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you, especially this week for letting us into your homes. We're so grateful.
- [47:36]
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