“Unthinkable”

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House — "Unthinkable"

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC)
Date: September 29, 2025

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Brief Overview

In this urgent episode, Nicolle Wallace examines the "unthinkable" presence of armed federal agents and the impending deployment of troops to major U.S. cities—including Chicago and Portland—under the Trump administration. Drawing comparisons to authoritarian tactics, the discussion spotlights alleged civil rights violations, the normalization of militarized policing, deteriorating trust in federal authority, and concerns about politicizing the military. With in-depth analysis and live commentary from elected officials, military experts, and political analysts, the episode explores the constitutional, societal, and political implications of these unprecedented developments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Federal Militarization in American Cities

• Recent Events:

  • Heavily armed, camouflage-clad federal agents were patrolling Chicago, making arrests “in part on how the potential detainees look.” (01:10)
  • Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker and local leaders condemned these actions as intimidation, not legitimate law enforcement (01:10–09:19).

• Media & Civilian Impact:

  • CBS reporter pepper-sprayed by federal agents while alone in her car, with no protests present (03:34).
  • Images and confrontations likened to authoritarian regimes—"arresting tamale vendors and delivery men," intimidating construction workers, interrogating families in public spaces (09:19).

• Governor’s Blunt Accusations:

  • Pritzker accused the administration of sowing chaos as a pretext for military deployment, targeting non-white residents, and inflicting economic and psychological harm (09:19–19:48).

• Notable Quote:
  “ICE is running around the loop harassing people for not being white. Just a year ago, that was illegal in the United States. Now ICE is making it commonplace. That's not making America great.”
  — Governor J.B. Pritzker (17:28)

2. Military Perspective & Legal Norms

• Distinguishing Military from Police:

  • Ret. Maj. Gen. William Enyart pointedly clarified that these were police, not military troops, but acknowledged the militarized appearance and potential for public confusion (06:19).
  • He highlighted the dangers and illegality of misrepresenting civilian law enforcement as military forces (07:01).

• On Militarization:
  “The military is here to protect our country from foreign invasion... [Militarization] of police agencies is really not appropriate.”
  — Ret. Maj. Gen. William Enyart (07:01)

• Concerns on Federal Overreach:

  • The Posse Comitatus Act limits federal military use in domestic law enforcement; deploying troops for law and order is a “vast overreach.”
    (20:33)

3. Political Analysis & Public Opinion

• Public Pushback:

  • Deploying National Guard for law enforcement garners only 38% support; 49% oppose less-restricted federal immigration stops (22:30).
  • Trump's approval ratings are historically low: from 38% to 41% in major polls (22:30–24:00).

• Democratic Reactions:

  • Claire McCaskill derides the visuals of masked, militarized police:
    “That visual... they look like they're fighting a war. And that is startling to Americans. What the hell? There's no disruption anywhere around them that would cause this.” (24:00)
  • These actions are described as counterproductive, eroding public trust and increasing voter mobilization, especially in Democrat-led cities.

• Policy Contradictions:

  • Even among those who support deporting violent criminals, there is little tolerance for broad, indiscriminate detentions, which comprise the bulk of recent ICE actions (30:36).

4. The National Guard & Federal Power

• Normalization of Troop Presence:

  • Vaughn Hilliard describes National Guard normalization in D.C.—armed personnel “walking by patios,” fostering unease among residents (26:20).
  • The DHS/“Department of War” described such deployments as ensuring “order, discipline and civic integrity”—language that echoes martial law (26:20).

• Legality & Motive:

  • The rationale for deployments (e.g., to Portland) doesn’t fit crime data—homicides and major crime are down (28:46).
  • Hilliard: “Trump has now repeatedly spread falsehoods about the realities of these American cities,” using them for “pretext for further action or federalization.” (28:46)

5. Concerns Over Upcoming Military Meeting

• Extraordinary Gathering:

  • Secretary Pete Hegseth summons 800+ military leaders for a “warrior ethos” meeting; Trump will attend.
    • Raises security, fiscal, and morale concerns (35:34–37:45).
    • Described as “a pep talk”—disrespectful, costly, potentially destabilizing (45:24).

• Military & Political Boundaries:

  • Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling and McCaskill emphasize the danger of politicizing the military—military silence is not complicity but discipline (49:29).

• Notable Quote:
  “In the military, silence isn’t weakness, it’s discipline. ... Generals don’t cheer for politics or politicians. They serve the Constitution.”
  — Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling (49:29)

6. Erosion of Congressional Oversight

• Failure to Push Back:

  • McCaskill expresses amazement at the lack of bipartisan resistance or oversight for Hegseth’s actions and the administration’s use of force (47:27).
  • “Where’s their courage? … They know how wrong this is.” (47:34)

• Warnings from Past Military Leaders:

  • Former Trump Pentagon officials (Milley, Esper, Mattis, Kelly) have publicly described Trump as unfit, dictatorial, or “fascistic”—reflecting deep alarm in military leadership (48:36–49:29).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-------------|---------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 17:28 | Gov. J.B. Pritzker | “ICE is running around the loop harassing people for not being white... That's not making America great.” | | 07:01 | Maj. Gen. Enyart | “The military is here to protect our country... not law enforcement folks. Militarization... is not appropriate.” | | 24:00 | Claire McCaskill | “They look like soldiers to me... fighting a war. And that is startling to Americans. What the hell?” | | 26:20 | Vaughn Hilliard | “There are still more than 2,300 National Guards members patrolling the streets of Washington, D.C.... | | 49:29 | Lt. Gen. Hertling | “In the military, silence isn’t weakness, it’s discipline... Generals don’t cheer for politics or politicians.” | | 47:34 | Claire McCaskill | “They know how wrong this is.” |

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 04:00 — On-the-ground reporting from Chicago, ICE and Border Patrol encounters
• 09:19–19:48 — Governor J.B. Pritzker’s press conference
• 22:30–28:46 — National polling and political fallout; contributor analysis
• 35:34–41:17 — Analysis of military meeting called by Trump/Hegseth
• 45:24–49:29 — Congressional oversight failure and reflections on military ethos

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Tone & Language

• Direct, urgent, and frequently incredulous—multiple guests and the host repeatedly draw stark comparisons to authoritarian regimes and raise constitutional red flags.
• Language is candid and impassioned, with a blend of legal, military, and personal perspectives (e.g., "jackbooted thugs," "raw, naked federal power").
• The tone is noticeably critical of the Trump administration’s actions and supportive of checks, balances, and norms.

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Conclusion

This episode serves as a stark warning about the erosion of democratic norms, the politicization of law enforcement and the military, and the potential consequences of unchecked executive power. With expert voices from government, military, and journalism, "Unthinkable" starkly frames the current moment as a fundamental test for American constitutional principles and civic courage.

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For those who did not listen:
This summary captures a compelling, multidimensional discussion on how unprecedented federal actions and martial visuals in American cities have galvanized political and public opposition, fostered deep concern among military experts, and raised alarm bells about democracy, accountability, and the future of American civil-military relations.

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

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Hi there everyone. Happy Monday. It's 4 o' clock in New York. We begin today with images and events that were, frankly, unthinkable 10 months ago, certainly in every previous presidential administration. Images that reveal to all of us just how far down we all live now in Donald Trump's authoritarian rabbit hole. This is downtown Chicago. Yesterday. You can see heavily armed federal agents in camouflage and carrying tactical gear patrolling the streets of Chicago arresting people. These photos from the Chicago Sun Times show troops marching past some of Chicago's most famous landmarks on a bright, clear, beautiful Sunday afternoon. And this video, also from the Chicago Sun Times, shows that some agents were met with chants of ice go home. A top Trump official saying that the arrests they're making are based in part on how the potential detainees look. From reporting in the Chicago Sun Times, quote, gregory Bovino, commander at large of the border force, contrasted the people being arrested with a white WBEZ reporter saying agents consider a person's appearance before taking them into custody. Quote, you know, there's many different factors that go into something like that. It would be agent experience, intelligence that indicates there's illegal aliens in a particular place or location. Then obviously the particular characteristics of an individual, how they look, how do they look compared to, say, you? He said to the reporter, a tall, middle aged man of anglo descent. Illinois Governor J.B. pritzker reacted in a post on Sunday afternoon by saying, quote, the Trump administration's DHS officers appear to be carrying large weapons around downtown Chicago in camouflage and masks. This is not making anybody safer. It is a show of intimidation, instilling fear in our communities and hurting our businesses. Earlier that morning, a Reporter with CBS in Chicago said she was pepper sprayed by federal agents while inside her truck as she drove to a detention center. She says there were no protests or crowds at the time. That was masked. Pointed his weapon and shot directly at my car.

He saw my window was open and.

He shot right here. You can see the point of impact right there. I was sitting right there with my window open. A lot of it went inside of my car and on my face. I immediately felt it burning. I started throwing up. So that show of force by ICE in Chicago coincides with another one, this harrowing moment. An ICE officer throws a distraught mother to the ground in another city in New York City, in the courthouse. It's an incident that was so violent by ISIS standards that that agent in the video has been put on leave. But back to Chicago. The events there also coincide with Trump declaring on Sunday that he is sending troops to protect ICE facilities in another city. Portland, Oregon, a quote, war ravaged city. Oregon Senator Ron Wyden posted this reality check for Donald Trump a few hours later. It's a video of a scene outside an ICE facility in Portland, Oregon. Senator adds this quote taken just a few minutes ago outside the ICE facility in Portland that Trump claims is under siege. My message to Donald Trump is this, we don't need you here. Stay the hell out of our city. End quote. Here are the facts. According to the New York Times, quote, demonstrators have been camped outside the ICE building near Willamette river in southwest Portland for several months, rarely numbering more than two dozen. Brief, isolated skirmishes have broken out between protesters and federal law enforcement. But they have been confined to a few blocks in a neighborhood outside the urban core, the state of Oregon and the city of Portland suing in federal court today to block the deployment. They write this quote, plaintiffs seek to protect their sovereignty, retain control over local law enforcement and public safety, and prevent unnecessary disruption to Oregon's largest city. Plaintiffs have filed this suit to protect the basic structure of American federalism from an alarming intrusion. That was until the events in Los Angeles just a few months ago. Unprecedented. In just a few minutes, Illinois's governor, Governor Pritzker will be holding a press conference about what's happening right now, about this federal presence. Federal troops on the streets of Chicago. We'll bring that to you live as soon as it gets underway. Democrats across the country are pushing back against Trump's crackdown on Democratic run cities. And it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Former general for the Illinois National Guard, retired Major General William Enyart is here. Also joining us, former Democratic Senator and MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill is here and MSNBC senior White House correspondent Vaughn Hilliard joins us. General, I start with you. What do you feel when you see these images of troops in streets of American cities?

[Retired Major General William Enyart]

Well, you know, I think it's really important that we distinguish that these are not in fact troops and that the National Guard has not been called a Chicago. But certainly they appear addressed in a pretty militaristic manner and the streets of Chicago were calm. These folks marching down in this formation certainly are not their to inspire confidence in an appropriate law enforcement response here.

[Nicole Wallace]

What are the regulations about depicting yourselves as though you are militarized? Are there norms? Are there rules? Are there laws? Are there best practices?

[Retired Major General William Enyart]

Well, you know, it is against the law to pretend to be in the military and to wear military uniforms to give the impression that you're in the military. There has been an increased militarization of police departments throughout the country over the last many decades. Over the last several decades, you know, we've seen increased use of SWAT teams and we've seen surplus equipment given from dod, Department of Defense to civilian law enforcement agencies. And I think we need to ensure that we show that civilian law enforcement is that it's civilian police officers enforcing the law and not the military. You know, the military is here to protect our country, to protect our country from foreign invasion. And the Guard has a dual state mission of protecting in times of natural disasters. But we're not law enforcement folks. And this militarization of police agencies is really not appropriate.

[Nicole Wallace]

So these are federal agents. They are dressed in tactical gear and camouflage. In normal times, would someone from the military speak out about sort of appropriating something that any normal citizen would be justified in thinking does represent a member of the military?

[Retired Major General William Enyart]

Well, you know, that's difficult to say. The military members by and large certainly do not appreciate wannabe soldiers who dress up and pretend to be soldiers or act like soldiers. And someone, for example, that video clip you showed of the ICE agent, although he was not dressed in a military type uniform, abusing that woman and throwing her to the ground. Those kind of images are very devastating to our military because we pride ourselves on proper response and on well disciplined forces. We don't go around American cities beating people up and throwing them to the ground and handcuffing them and shoving them in the back of a van while we're wearing masks.

[Nicole Wallace]

General, let's listen together to Illinois Governor.

[Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker]

JB Pritzker waging war on our people. All of this has been aimed at causing chaos and mayhem in the hopes of creating a pretext to deploy military troops against Chicago and Broadview and other suburbs, just as the president is doing right now in Oregon. Moments ago, the Illinois National Guard received word that the Department of Homeland Security has sent a memo to the Department of War seeking the deployment of 100 military troops to Illinois, claiming a need for the protection of ICE personnel and facilities. What I have been warning of is now being realized. One thing is clear. None of what Trump is doing is making Illinois safer. Two weeks ago, a man was shot and killed by ICE in Franklin Park, Illinois. Shortly after, ICE issued a statement justifying the killing, saying the federal agent was seriously injured. The Chicago Sun Times has brought to light that the injuries were, in the agent's own words, nothing major. A man is dead, a community is shaken up, and we are yet again left with more questions than answers. On Saturday, federal agents wreaked havoc on the village of Broadview, a small suburb west of Chicago with 8,000 residents. I want to recognize Broadview Mayor Katrina Thompson, who is here today, and thank her for her strong and vocal leadership on behalf of her community. I also want to thank Broadview's Police chief, Thomas Mills, for his steady leadership and partnership with state and surrounding local law enforcement. In Broadview, people non violently holding signs and chanting against brutality, expressing their First Amendment rights have been regularly attacked with chemical agents like tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets and flashbangs. Agents reportedly unholstered their guns and pointed them at protesters. In their own words, ICE intended to unleash, quote, a shit show in the Broadview community without provocation and acting like jackbooted thugs. ICE has attacked and detained members of the press, including an independent journalist. A CBS Chicago correspondent had chemical munitions fired at her car, where there were no protesters in sight. And we have received many reports of US Citizens being detained for simply stepping onto the public street. That brings us to yesterday on a beautiful weekend when families were out enjoying their day in Chicago. Armed Border Patrol agents were downtown marching up and down Michigan Avenue, harassing and intimidating residents and tourists. In Millennium park, federal agents interrogated a family as their small daughter held onto her doll and appeared to try to translate for her parents. Officers carried large, unholstered offensive weapons downtown dressed in camouflage and masks. Building tradesmen near Tribune Tower, simply doing their jobs, were detained by federal agents while working on a construction site. Separately, two dozen federal agents chased down a man, handcuffed him and asked him for his papers. Meanwhile, ISIS chief offender Gregory Bovino has been leading the disruption and causing mayhem while he gleefully poses for photo ops and TikTok videos. Bovino even admitted on the record that they are making arrests. Based on how you look. Based on how you look. How you look. That's the baseline. They're not targeting violent criminals or gang members. They're arresting tamale vendors and delivery men and shaking down families. Donald Trump and Kristi Noem and Tom Homan said they were targeting the worst of the worst criminals. They lied and they continue to lie. 60% of the individuals that ICE has taken in Illinois this year have no criminal convictions of any kind. ICE is running around the loop harassing people for not being white. Just a year ago, that was illegal in the United States. Now ICE is making it commonplace. That's not making America great. In any other country. If federal agents fired upon journalists and protesters went unprovoked, what would we call it? If federal agents marched down busy streets harassing civilians and demanding their papers, what would we say? I don't think we'd have any trouble calling it what it is. Authoritarianism. So let's not pretend it's something else when it happens in our American cities. The MAGA Republican supported invasion of Portland and Chicago, Louisiana and Washington, D.C. is not making us any safer. Instead, it is putting our people in danger. This is an attack on neighborhoods, on lawful residents, on U.S. citizens. That's not preventing crime as Donald Trump claims. That's threatening public safety. But as I've said many times, for Donald Trump and the Magaz in Congress, this is not about fighting crime or about public safety. This is about sowing fear and intimidation and division among Americans. It was about creating a pretext to send armed military troops into our communities. This is about consolidating power in Donald Trump's hands. What he plans to do with that power now or during the 2026 elections should worry all of us. When you add to that the Trump administration's effort to label as dangerous. Free speech critical of him. White House senior staff calling the Democratic Party fascist the Trump appointed FCC chair threatening to revoke broadcast licenses and the approval of a merger in order to silence late night comedians. Trump's threats to jail political opponents. You cannot call this anything except an attack on the Constitution of the United States. But let's also talk about what he's doing to the economy with all these attacks on our communities. Our small businesses suffer when our residents and visitors who are shopping and eating are made to feel unsafe by the jackbooted thugs roaming around a peaceful downtown Parents are now scared to send their kids to school for fear the troops will grab their children. Students are afraid they'll come home and find their parents have been disappeared by ice. This is no way to live. We are here together today. Elected officials, business leaders, the faith, community, law enforcement, educators, community organizations united in our opposition to these flagrant abuses of power by the federal government. With one voice, we are telling this unwarranted and unconstitutional occupation by ICE and potentially by military troops to get out of Chicago. You are not helping us. Over the past month, I've been all across the city and all across the region, from Bronzeville to Austin to Pilsen to Little Village, talking to residents and to local business owners. Not one of them has asked for armed military troops in our streets. They have all said loudly that there is no emergency here on the ground that requires the deployment of military troops or the use of military tactics. I refuse to stay silent about this and let the slow encroachment of our freedoms and liberties continue unabated. The state of Illinois and all of us will continue to fight this with everything that we have. So, people of Illinois, we need your help. Get out your cell phones, record and narrate what you see. Put it on social media peacefully. Ask for badge numbers and identification. Speak up for your neighbors. We need to let the world know that this is happening and that we won't stand for it. I was surprised and pleased to see that a federal agent in New York was put on leave after he was caught throwing a woman to the ground. Good, good. That would never have happened, though, if it wasn't on camera. So keep documenting. It could make a world of difference for someone, perhaps for all of us. I look forward to taking your questions. And right now, I'd like to hand the microphone over to Mayor Brandon Johnson. Mayor. Thank you, Governor.

[Nicole Wallace]

Of course.

[Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker]

Thank you, Governor.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're going to continue to monitor this. General, let me come back to you on a correction I appreciate you making for me, but let me just ask you to react to these numbers. So 100 National Guard troops have been sent to Illinois. You're correct, though, that the images were of militarized federal law enforcement. But the governor there making this warning to the federal government and the Trump administration saying, quote, no one has asked for armed military troops and calling it a, quote, unwanted occupation by ICE and potentially the military and saying, get out your thoughts.

[Retired Major General William Enyart]

Well, I think this is clearly a vast overreach of federal authorities. There are no civil disturbances in Chicago. There is no necessity for armed federal military intervention. Which is what we're talking about here. Now what I heard the governor say was that the HHS Kristi Noem has asked the Department of DefenseI refuse to call it the Department of War. The official title is Department of Defense. The Department of defense for 100 military members. So whether those might be National Guard, whether they might be active duty, we don't know yet. We don't know whether he'll attempt to mobilize Illinois National Guard troops against the governor's will, which can only be done under very rigid circumstances and certainly that is not the case here. Or sending in active, active duty federal military forces subjects them to what's called the Posse Comitatus law, which says you cannot do civil law enforcement. So and 100 soldiers, good heavens, he can send in 100 FBI agents or 100 more border agents. What are 100 soldiers going to do other than be a demonstration of raw, naked federal power? That's what Donald Trump is after. He needs to distract from the economy. He needs to distract from distract from Jeffrey Epstein. He needs distraction from the tariffs gone wrong. John Deere, an Illinois Corporation, lost $500 million in the first quarter of this year due to Trump's tariffs. Or, excuse me, the last quarter of the reporting year, $500 million. So that's what he needs distraction from. And what better distraction than to have armed soldiers or armed soldier looking folks with masks covering their faces marching down Michigan Avenue.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire McCaskill the problem is the armed federal officers dressed in a militarized manner aren't any more popular than anything else the general just named. So according to NPR Ipsos polling, deploying National Guard troops to a major city in your state for law enforcement efforts. Only 38% of all Americans support that. 49% opposed allowing federal officers to make immigration related stops with fewer restrictions. Down to 35%. That isn't even what we usually think of as the whole of the sort of magaverse. 50% of Americans oppose it Let me read you Donald Trump's approval ratings in every poll that was available today. Quinnipiac 38% of Americans approve of Donald Trump 54% disapprove Associated Press 39% of Americans approve of Donald Trump 60% disapprove of Donald Trump Gallup 40% approve 56 disapprove Reuters 41% of Americans approve 58 disapprove The Economist poll has only 39% of Americans approving of Donald Trump. 56% disapprove he's an historically unpopular president from month nine, he's actively engaged in tanking the US economy on purpose. And he's carrying out an immigration policy that 35% of Americans, which is less than his approval rating in every poll, support. What do you think is going on?

Well, I think he is really. I think what's going on is Stephen Miller has more power than anybody who has his views should have. I think Tom Holman is in charge of a bunch of cowboys. And cowboy is a term that we use in law enforcement for people who have law enforcement power that consistently push the envelope in terms of what they are allowed to do. And I think these guys in masks, first of all, I worked in law enforcement for many years. I never recalled anyone other than an undercover agent being masked. And the idea that now this is normal. And by the way, these visuals are unbelievable. I mean, that visual of those, whatever they are, ICE agents, law enforcement, they look like soldiers to me. They look like they're fighting a war. And that is startling to Americans. What the hell? There's no disruption anywhere around them. There's nothing going on around them that would cause this kind of unleashing of power. And I gotta tell you, it's bad for the economy. It's bad for the respect we have for law enforcement and our military. It's abusing the military. It's very expensive. It's not going after criminals. And on top of it all, Nicole, he is driving up voter turnout in very blue places in America. Nobody could work on voter turnout and doing a more effective job than Donald Trump is doing right now with those visuals. People who see that in Chicago and in the surrounding areas that are offended and it's the majority of America, they're going to vote, they're more likely to vote. Now, seeing stuff like that that's going on.

Juan Hilliard, I want to ask you to react to Governor Pritzker's pretty pointed and specific indictment of Donald Trump and his White House and then pretty broad indictment of the bucket of policies saying marching down the streets, asking for papers, quote, that's authoritarianism.

[MSNBC Senior White House Correspondent Vaughn Hilliard]

And I think along those lines, while listening to the Illinois governor, it made me stop and acknowledge and recognize the fact that there are still more than 2,300 National Guards members that are patrolling the streets of Washington, D.C. and almost in a way, they have become normalized across the district here. As a resident, you see them over across walking by dog parks, you see them outside of the Washington Nationals baseball game. You see them walking by patios while you're eating down for a bite. And so often the commentary Is what are they here doing? Because they're not supposed to be here for law enforcement purposes, yet they have, they're armed. And they continue to exist here for purposes that are not defined other than, I think that it's worth referencing directly the Department of War, as their Twitter handle is called, tweeting out this very weekend, quote, their presence ensures order, discipline and civic integrity. That was the official Twitter account of the Department of War, the Department of defense, about the D.C. the National Guard continuing to be here in Washington D.C. and I think that calls into question the characterization that, you know, the governor mentioned the word pretext for further action or militarization or the federalization of federal agents. When you look at Portland, the governor of Oregon and the mayor of Portland filing a lawsuit here this weekend to try to stop the federalizing of the National Guard as the Secretary Hegseth is directed. And the President's depictions of Oregon and Portland specifically just don't match the reality. He has said that it's like living in hell. Quote, war ravaged Portland. And he said not just that he was to going, going to send, you know, federal agents in the National Guard, but he provided them the authority to use, quote, full force if necessary.

[Nicole Wallace]

Vaughn, what's interesting to me is that he seems to have ceded the crime issue. I mean, Governor Pritzker also saying, quote, this is not about crime, it's about a pretext, as you just said, to send our military troops into our cities. What he plans to do with those troops ahead of the 2026 election should scare anybody. I mean, crime is an area where his numbers have been higher than 38, 35, 38, 39, 40, 41 and 39. Immigration. He's in the tank. He's at 35% on what he's doing. So why are they doubling down on the thing that is unpopular and abandoning any pretext that this is about crime?

[MSNBC Senior White House Correspondent Vaughn Hilliard]

Right. Homicide rates are down in Portland again, for an example. You can go city by city, and it just doesn't. If you're looking at the crime rate statistics, it doesn't quite make sense. Why would you direct resources to Portland as opposed to other cities? But that is what the White House is doing. And on the immigration front, look, it was earlier this month that Fox showed on one day images out of Portland that were a mix of some more recent demonstrations of dozens of individuals. But also twisted in with those videos were videos from the summer of 2020. And the president, the next day is when he really turned his attention to Portland. And we should note his Labor Secretary Laurie Chavez. Jeremy she was actually a congresswoman from South Portland up until she lost her re election bid this last November. And she was one that was calling for federal intervention. And right about that point in time is when President Trump suggested that he believes the National Guard should be sent in here. And I think when you're looking, looking at the demonstrations that have existed, they've been relatively small, upwards of maybe 100. And you know, I know that anybody that is listening in Oregon can objectively say that the idea that the President is trying to promote about it being war ravaged just doesn't meet a reality. I was there back in May and this is a moment here where the President is using, whether it be Chicago or Washington D.C. or Portland, we have now multiple cases in which he is frankly spreading falsehoods about the realities of these American cities and moving forward with these, you know, the use of the National Guard really with only the courts being a potential one to intervene, but in the meanwhile, the courts not moving in a swift fashion to stop these actions. I think Portland is another example there of whether the courts will step in here at the request requested the Oregon governor.

[Nicole Wallace]

Claire I don't usually spend this much time in the polls, but I do spend all my day trying to understand why in their world, in their heads, they're doing what they're doing and deporting adjudicated violent criminals. According to New York Times, Siena has the support of 87% of Americans. Everything else is almost an 8020 issue. People who are married to American citizens, people who have American born kids and people with jobs. Anywhere from about 65 to 80% of Americans oppose deporting all those groups of neighbors and community members. And yet that's where the bulk of the deportations are hitting. What is your sense of why they are doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on the least popular part of their immigration agenda?

Well, this is what happened. This is what happens when you live with a lie. And the lie they told during the campaign is that they were going to be able to deport millions and millions and millions of people that were all hardened, dangerous criminals that had come across our border. And if you spend any time at the border at all and looked at the people who were coming across the border asking for asylum, words hardened criminals would not be in the first 20 descriptors. Yes, I'm sure there were a few that were bad guys, but the point is that they have now set up a system that they can't match. I mean, Stephen Miller told them all they got to do a thousand a day. They've got to arrest 1,000 immigrants a day. Well, you run out of criminals pretty quickly when you put those kinds of requirements on a law enforcement entity. Now that is bigger than the FBI. I mean, the general's right. They should be sending FBI agents instead of people from the military. But honestly, they are hiring a massive amount of people. It is going to dwarf the rest of federal law enforcement. Homeland Security is and I don't think Americans signed up for that either. And Vaughn made a really good point about Portland. Portland has crime is down across the board in 2025. It's had the steepest drop in homic sides of any major city in America in 2025. That's where he says he needs to send in a militarized force to torment the peaceful citizens of Portland.

Major General William Enyar, thank you for making me smarter and keeping us honest. Vaughn Hilliard, thank you for all of your reporting. Thank you both for starting us off. Claire sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back. As the US Military continues to be deployed to US Cities, Donald Trump's misuse of the military will now also include standing with his secretary of defense in front of what he calls his generals in tomorrow's very unorthodox gathering. We'll look ahead to that. Plus, it's not just former FBI Director Jim Comey. There are new threats today from Trump to now process prosecute another director of the FBI, one he handpicked for the job, Christopher Wray. We'll get to that and a whole lot more when deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Tomorrow's meeting of military leaders who have been summoned from command posts all around the world by Pete Hegseth to hear his one hour long take on quote, warrior ethos is, if you can believe it, sounding even more weird by the hour. Yesterday, Donald Trump told NBC News that he will now be attending the meeting. Trump said this, quote, it's really just a very nice meeting, talking about how well we're doing militarily, talking about being in great shape, talking about a lot of good positive things. It's just a good message. We have some great people coming in and it's just an esprit de corps. You know the expression esprit de corps. That's all it's about. We're talking about what we're doing, what they're doing and how we're doing exactly what one would want the person with the nuclear launch codes to say about the reason he summoned every military leader to a single meeting in one room. Washington Post is reporting that the event will cost millions of dollars, that it raises military security concerns and that it runs the risk of leaving top military leaders stranded. Quote, it is estimated that flying, lodging and transporting all the military leaders, some of whom will be traveling from the Mid East Europe and the Indo Pacific, will cost millions. The event has also raised security concerns about having all the top leadership in what particularly given that Tuesday is the end of the fiscal year and if the government shuts down, it could leave key personnel stranded from their units. Joining our coverage, retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. Claire is still with us. General Hertling, tell me how you're thinking about this and what I mean, I think people understand that of all members of the government and of our society, the military is literally structured up the chain of command. And so if someone, they must come. But how would you feel if you were and your family were halfway around the world and you were summoned to a meeting about esprit de corps?

[Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah, Nicole, it's a tough question. What I'd say is, first of all, I put myself in the position, I take myself back a couple of years when I was still wearing the uniform and say, how would I approach this? And what I'd say is those military leaders, the 800 or so, not only the one stars through four stars from all over the world, but also their senior enlisted advisers and probably parts of their commo teams and their security details are going to be descending on Washington. I put myself in that kind of situation and say, what would I be thinking? And I would have to adapt because this thing has changed so many times over the last couple of days. The first time that Secretary Hegseth announced it, it was going to be be about the warrior ethos. And the warrior ethos, when it's defined and you know about it, it's a part of the oath to the Constitution, the values and credos of the various services and something called the warrior ethos, which consists of four parts. I won't go into that now. So, okay, we can talk about that. It seems a little bit bizarre to have so many people coming into a room for the Secretary to be talking about something like that. But then it evolved a little bit more when the Pentagon said the real plans were for. In fact, a leap from the Pentagon said it's about getting horses into the stables and whipping them into shape. That's very condescending and a little bit diabolical in my terms. And then over the weekend on Saturday, the President said, yeah, okay, if you're going to have everybody here, I want to talk to them too. It turned from a one hour meeting that seemed a little bit bizarre to probably multiple hours. If you're going to have the President talking based on what we've seen in terms of how he speaks to various audiences. So going back to your question of how would I feel, I would feel this would be, especially if I was coming from Europe or the Indo Pacific region. I would be saying it's a long run for a short slide, as they say in baseball. A couple of almost a day on the road to get to a place where we're going to hear people talk to us. And it has, it seems to have nothing to do with national security strategy or the status of the force. If it's about esprit de corps. You know, I, I hate to put this in, in stark terms, but many people say the US military is the best in the world. We have very good esprit de corps. So I'm not sure what is going to go on. It's a big question. I don't know how I would have prepared for it if I was still wearing the uniform, other than to say, I got to keep a stoic approach and a poker face when I go into this auditorium at Quantico.

[Nicole Wallace]

How heavily is it weighing on the men and women of the military and their families that whether the federal agents roaming the streets of American cities are actually military? They all look to the American people and any tourists in these big cities like soldiers. And again, whether or not the plans to bomb and obliterate fishing boats off Venezuela without evidence that they're actually drug carriers is happening in the name of the military. I mean, what they're doing under Trump and Hegseth is one bucket of things. What Trump and Hegseth are allowing people to see as militarized operations is another. How is that weighing on the military?

[Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Well, you know, I listened to your last half hour, Nicole, and it was excellent in terms of the various commentary from different people. But I'll tell you, as a. As a person who wore the cloth of our country for 40 years, you know, all I could think back on is the number of lessons I've received on why we do the things the way we do them. In the period leading up to the Revolution, Revolutionary War colonists objected to the kinds of things you were talking about over the last half hour. The arbitrary arrest, the confinement without trial, and the use of general warrants, which were called writs of assistance at the time. So they put them into our Constitution, and they're called different things under the 4th, 5th, 6th and 8th amendment. But getting again back to your question, all the actions are troublesome because talking about using, as the president said, full force in Portland, Oregon, is contrary to what the military believes. That's not what we do. We do not use full force against our fellow citizens unless there's some type of insurrection like there was during the Civil War. Full force is for the police department. And to get more into your question, what I'm most concerned about is I see the films of these different cities where ICE agents and federal agents and police officers really have a militarized approach using MRAP vehicles and kitted up with helmets and armored vest and using long rifles. That to me, when you talk about bringing the military into the streets of the city, most citizens don't know the difference between these people in those kind of uniforms versus the one, the uniforms of the military that we wear.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. And I mean, I guess the point and the danger is that people still have greater trust in the military than they do right now, based on most of the research I've seen in ICE agents. And so it seems like there's an effort to use the military. I want to ask both of you about that and why Congress is still awol. I have to sneak in a quick break before I do that while. Be right back.

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[Nicole Wallace]

We are back with General Mark Herling and Claire McCaskill. Claire, I know you're on Armed Services. This is where it's shocking to me that there is no more bipartisan consensus about drawing some red lines about what any politician can and can't do with the military.

Yeah, I don't know where Roger Wicker and Tom Cotton and Deb Fisher and so many of the other Republicans that serve on armed services, I don't know what in the world they're thinking. But from this use of the term full force of our military, potentially in an American city, that would have been hair on fire back when I served on the Armed Services Committee on a bipartisan basis. And you know, this meeting, Nicole, you know, we've talked about it's expensive. We've talked about it being a security risk. We've talked about it being unprecedented and therefore a signal of instability of our military to the rest of the world. But I'd like to just point out how disrespectful it is to the men and very few Women that will be in that room. The idea that these men and women need a pep talk. If you understand what it takes to become a flag officer in the United States military, you know that they are the last people in the world that need a lecture from a TV commentator about military ethos, a warrior ethos. They live it. They are. And they've been pulled away from their very important work. I mean, this is. They're doing really important stuff every day wherever they're stationed, and it's disruptive to their work. It's a little bit like, you know, when you had a boss at one point in your life and they kept calling meetings to preen about how important they were. Meanwhile, you were thinking to yourself, do they not understand that I'm not working right now? That's what this is. And it is ridiculous. And it's infuriating that none of the Republicans on the Armed Services Committee Committee have said a word about it. A pep talk for performative purposes so he can put it on his Instagram account. And disrespecting these flag officers, these generals, like that, it's outrageous.

Claire, are you surprised that there's no effort at oversight of Pete Hegseth's command of the Pentagon?

I am. And by the way, I have talked to some of my former colleagues on the Armed Services Committee, and I can assure you that there are many of them that are very worried, including Republicans, about Pete Hegseth's judgment, because really, you get hired for that job based on your judgment. And he's shown time and time again how poor his judgment is. This is just the latest incident. This one could be very dangerous. But so was telling our enemies that we were about to bomb someone, which he did by putting it out on an easily hackable site without even thinking about the security concerns that that represented. So I don't understand why the Republicans on the Armed Services Committee have lost, especially those who served. Where's their courage? They took an oath, too. Not just when they became a senator, but when they were in the military. They know how wrong this is.

General, I'll give you a quick last word. And I'm just so struck that people like Mark Milley and Mark Esper and Jim Mattis and John Kelly, they don't say much, but when they did speak, they said things like General John Kelly said Trump is the most damaged human being he's ever known. Mattis concurred with Milley, who described Trump as fascistic to the core. Kelly said he was met every technical description of a dictator and Esper speaks out often and frequently about his lack of fitness to serve. How did those statements from those four men who have not a ton in common other than that they all served at the highest levels of the military in the Pentagon under Donald Trump. How do their statements and their experiences reflect what anyone in this room might think when they walk in tomorrow?

[Retired U.S. Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling]

Yeah, it's a two edged sword, Nicole. And I think when you're talking about the former Secretary of Defenses, the ones that, that have the civilian moniker, it's okay for them to speak out because they are public figures. But in the military, one of the things that I try and persuade people to understand that in the military silence isn't weakness, it's discipline. That's what we are trained to do. Generals don't cheer for politics or politicians. They serve the Constitution. A lot of Americans are saying the generals need to step up and they need to say something that's not our role. We serve the government and the civilian leaders that our nation elects, even though we may disagree with them 100%. Because as soon as we start doing that, because the military is caught up with recruiting from all elements of American society, there's going to be someone pissed off at us. So it's very difficult to run that razor's edge in these kind of things. But I think General Milley, although I'm not a great fan of General Milley, I think he was probably the one that stepped up the most in terms of saying what he had experienced and how he was reminding others that the Constitution's oath and the values of our military services, each one of them have different values. The military creeds that we take and this warrior ethos that Secretary Hexa said he was going to talk about are all embedded in who they are. As Senator McCaskill said, and I'm a huge fan of hers, as she just said, they know how to do this stuff. So, okay, if you want to change the standards, if you want to do something different or you want to kind of hash out the way we're doing things, or the national security strategies, the generals and the admirals will be there in a heartbeat. But taking them into the stable and taking them to the woodshed, it was my interpretation of that one comment from the Pentagon is just not the right thing to do. So again, I go back to my attempt at an analysis of how would I act if I was being called to this meeting. I'd have to say, I don't know what the hell is going to happen on Tuesday morning. I don't know what it's going to be like? Is it going to be similar to President Trump's speech to the West Point graduates at their graduation? Or is it going to be, I hope it's not going to be the kind of speech he gave at Fort Bragg where they cornered all the supporters in a corral and had them as his backing? Or is it going to be what I think it's going to be? Stoic general and admirals whose silence will not be disrespect, it will be their restraint. And if it's a speech like occurred at the UN These are individuals who deal with other nations, who engage with other people, countries. They know the real deal of going of what's going on out there. That Trump has not ended seven wars, that past administrations did not do everything wrong, that you can't mock presidents and really show the respect that our country requires in our national values. So it hopefully will be a collective reminder of our professional culture that transcends politics. That's what I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning.

[Nicole Wallace]

All right, well, stay near your cameras tomorrow. We're going to need you guys. General marker Atlant, Claire McCaskill, thank you both so much. Switching gears for us, A community in Michigan is reeling after a horrific attack on Sunday morning at a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in Grand Blanc. A man drove into the church in the middle of services with hundreds of people in attendance. That man started shooting before setting fire to the building. Officials updated earlier today that the attack has left at least four people dead and eight others are injured. They added that everyone has now been accounted for, but they are still in the process of clearing out the church. The suspect, who died after a confrontation with law enforcement, was identified as a 40 year old former Marine who lived in a nearby town. No motive has yet been determined by the FBI who is leading the investigation. The FBI is calling the attack, quote, an act of targeted violence. They have so far interviewed more than 100 victims and witnesses. We'll continue to monitor for any updates in that investigation. Ahead for us, how Donald Trump's repeated lies about January 6th have now led to threats of another revenge prosecution coming from Trump in the White House. We'll tell you about it next.

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