← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“U.S. F-15 Fighter Jet shot down in Iran”
00:40:35
Ayman Mohyeldin is in for Nicolle Wallace. Ayman covers the breaking news that a U.S. F-15 fighter jet was shot down over southwestern Iran. One of the two-member crew was rescued, while the second person onboard has still not been found. A search and rescue operation is underway to try to find the second pilot. This jet strike comes hours after the U.S. attacked a bridge under construction in Iran, killing 8 people.
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Nicole Wallace
as President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
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The American people are basically telling the President that they are not okay with any of this.
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Nicole Wallace
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at Ms. Now. Project 47
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Amy McGrath
Foreign.
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Eamonn Brennan
Hi there Everybody. It is four o'clock in New York. I'm Ayman Mohidin in today for Nicole Wallace. Right now we are monitoring a developing situation inside Iran, specifically a US Military search and rescue operation that is underway as we speak. It is for an American service member somewhere inside Iran's borders. That is according to a US Official with knowledge of the matter. Again, this is a fast evolving story, but here's what we know at this hour. A US F15 fighter jet, a combat vessel that seats two, a pilot and a weapons systems officer, was shot down this morning over the skies of Iran. You can see pieces of it on your screen there. Earlier, officials confirmed to Ms. Now that one of the two people on board was thankfully rescued. Now whether that was the pilot or the systems officer, we are still not sure. Also unknown the whereabouts of that second person. And while there is plenty of reason to doubt anything said on the airwaves of Iran's state tv, we're going to note this. Earlier, a presenter read aloud a bounty reward for the capture of, quote, enemy pilots. We understand that Donald Trump has been briefed on all of this last hour. He posted on social media not with words of encouragement or a thought for the missing service member, but with this in all caps, keep the oil anyone? That message merely 43 hours since he told the American people in a primetime address from the White House that U.S. goals in the region were nearing completion.
- [02:41]
General Randy Manor
Watch tonight, Iran's Navy is gone. Their air force is in ruins.
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Paul Reichoff
They have no anti aircraft equipment.
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General Randy Manor
Their radar is 100% annihilated. We are unstoppable as a military force.
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Eamonn Brennan
We have all the cards.
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Paul Reichoff
They have none.
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Eamonn Brennan
Now in this space between that moment and today's ongoing search and rescue operation for an American service member in Iran, the US Military conducted an assault on a major civilian infrastructure, a violation of international law, including a major bridge still under construction that resulted in eight people being killed. It was an escalation that has already resulted in retaliation. All of that with a major deadline. Now on the other side of this weekend, remember, Trump insisted that Iran had until Monday to reopen the Strait of Hormuz or else as commander in chief, he'd instruct the US Military to initiate attacks on Iran's civilian power plants. But in the meantime, the search is on for an American service member, perhaps stranded deep behind enemy lines. And that is where we start today. Retired Army Major General Randy Manor is here. He served as deputy commanding general in Kuwait and acting vice chief of the National Guards Bureau. Also, Mark Jacobson is here. He is a retired intelligence officer for the Navy and former senior Pentagon official. He is also a military historian and our national security reporter, David Rhode. General, I'll start with you as we come on the air. NBC News, citing a U.S. official, is reporting that two U.S. military helicopter helicopters that were actually involved in the search and rescue operation today came under fire and were struck by Iranian fire. We understand that those vessels aboard are thankfully safe, but it highlights just the risk that is at play here, both in the initial operation with that F15 and the rescue and the search and rescue operation that is ongoing.
- [04:42]
General Randy Manor
My thoughts, of course, are with those servicemen in harm's way as well as, of course, probably even more importantly, their family members who are so very worried about them. When you send in strikes into over enemy territory, you have search and rescue capabilities already loitering not too far away. So they can be there hopefully within minutes, if not a very brief amount of time. It's usually composed of HC130s with Blackhawks helicopters as well as, of course, pair of jumpers that would go in to be able to help any wounded or injured pilot. And these would be escorted by fighters because, of course, they're very defenseless whenever they're flying and they fly very low and very slow, but the fighters would be there to support them. So this is just a very unfortunate situation. And and again, my heart and my thoughts are with all of the the military members and their families.
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Eamonn Brennan
General, how complex is a search and rescue operation? You touched on it a little bit, but and you mentioned the helicopters that are involved and we were mentioning that NBC News reporting that the helicopters themselves also came under fire. They have to cover a lot of terrain looking for these pilots. And I'm wondering how complex of an operation that is that they are close to the ground, subject to enemy fire, trying to keep a visual on where that plane went down and possible any signals that might be emitted or transmitting signals that might be emitted from that second service member.
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General Randy Manor
Yes, it's extremely complex and it does require a lot of sophisticated coordination among the air and then those resources that may actually have to get down to the ground to inspect any kind of wreckage or anything else to determine, hopefully, of course, if the other person is alive and if not, of course, to be able to extract their remains in the worst of cases, of course. So it's very, very difficult. It's very dangerous work. My son actually was an HC130 pilot in charge of a crew like this in Afghanistan when I was in Iraq, in Kuwait, back in the day. So it is again, you can imagine, every time he was flying, I was concerned about him and his crew as well. Hundreds of lives are at stake trying to save that one pilot, as it should be.
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Eamonn Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. A very important point, Mark. Of course, we were just highlighting the dangers and the risks involved. The commander in chief and his first public reaction to all of this significant development today was to post keep the oil. Anyone, what's your view of the situation?
- [07:10]
Mark Jacobson
That reaction, Randy, first, first, let me echo what Randy said. Our thoughts are with the families, our prayers are with the pilots, at least one of whom is still behind enemy lines. And there's a lot of uncertainty here. This is a complex operation. I am sure, if there is one thing I am sure about with this White House, that the concerns of the President are with the families and are with the troops. And if, if there's any doubt as to how serious this incursion, conflict, war with Iran is, then today should be a very clear sign, just like when bodies come back at Dover, that this is not only serious, but we are going to take more casualties the longer that we are involved in this campaign.
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Eamonn Brennan
David. The New York Times reported that a second Air Force combat plane crashed in the Persian Gulf region on Friday and the lone pilot was safely rescued, according to the two US Officials who spoke spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss these operational matters. The A10 Warhog attack plane went down near the Strait of Hormuz about the same time that an Air Force F15 was shot down over Iran, the official said. And in that incident, one crew member was rescued and search and rescue operations are still ongoing for that second Airmen officials provided scant details about what led that A10 crash, including where it happened. What more can you tell us about this reporting and the dominance, if you will, or the lack thereof, of American air power over the skies of Iran and the region?
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David Rhode
Yes, I had two officials tell me that in terms of the warthog going down, that's correct. They said there was just one pilot in the warthog and that that person had been rescued. But the main question. And, you know, I mean, that's the most important thing. They've been rescued. But the main question, in terms of the performance of the US Forces versus Iranian defenses, it's not clear if the warthog crashed or was shot down. If Iran's military has managed to shoot down two U.S. planes, they had not shot down any until today, hours after President Trump made that declaration in the speech to the nation. That would be a shocking result, and it does point to the resilience of Iranian forces. It's sort of asymmetric warfare that they're able to. There's been, I believe, 10,000 sorties that have occurred. No planes shot down, and now they're able to take these down. I think it's too hard to say at this point whether this is a, you know, these are two isolated incidents or not. But I just think it is another challenge to the president's narrative about that this war is going well, that we've decimated Iran's air defenses. Yet you have two planes crashing, one of them, the F15, being shot down.
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Eamonn Brennan
David, what else have you heard in your reporting? And what are you tracking down? What are you working on trying to track down right now on this day?
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David Rhode
I'm very concerned about this pilot. It's dark in Iran. That could help them, possibly hide. There's transmitters that pilots have. There was a famous case many, many years ago in Bosnia where an American pilot hid for a long period and then was actually rescued. So there's a chance this pilot is still out there somehow hiding. They get specialized training. Both of my colleagues here, the military experts will know. But it's called a SERE training. S E R E. It's to survive, to get to the ground. Hopefully this person wasn't injured. If they were injured, it's easier for the Iranians to get them. E is for evade, that they should evade capture, as I just talked about, and R and E, the last parts of the training are resistance. That's if you're captured. I do think the Iranians will keep him or her alive. The propaganda value of being Able to show a captured American pilot is enormous for the Iranian regime. And the final e s e r e is escape. There is a duty for US servicemembers to try to escape when possible. It's a huge, complex effort. I just hope they find this pilot and find them and they're still safe.
- [11:21]
Eamonn Brennan
General, tell us a little bit about that F15 fighter jet and juxtapose that with the comments the President made that the US basically had complete dominance over Iranian skies. Is that a plane that would be easily shot down? What kind of weaponry could bring down an F15 over the skies of Iran?
- [11:43]
General Randy Manor
I think there's actually two very important points that all the viewers have to understand is that the President's comments were quite frankly almost to the level of political propaganda. Why do I say that? Because never underestimate your enemy. We have not completely destroyed everything that they have. They have a very powerful army. They have many, many MANPADs. They have the ability to attack us in different ways. It is absolutely true that the strategic capability to attack their neighbors has been significantly diminished. It is not zero. And we should never assume that because as soon as you get lackadaisical, it doesn't matter what equipment that you have or how well trained you are, if you let your guard down, then bad things can happen. So again we need to be open eyed about this. We need to know that this is a high risk environment. It is not just taking a flight around Iran. That is not what is going on here. Do not underestimate your enemy.
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Eamonn Brennan
Mark. The official status of the missing service member is duty status, whereabouts unknown. I'm wondering if you can explain that to our viewers. And are you at all surprised that one service member has been rescued and the other remains missing? Does that tell us anything about how the nature of the aircraft may have come down and the two service members split up? Right.
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Mark Jacobson
Well to answer your first question, the dust one status, the duty status known, essentially this is the Pentagon doing the right thing, being prudent because they're not, they're not certain of any information. I think the viewers will be familiar with two other statuses, Missing in action and killed in action. But there's also epw, pow, Prisoner of war. Now we don't want to see the missing in action, we don't want to see the killed in action. We don't want to see the prisoner of war. So this, this is a, maybe a bureaucratically mundane thing right now, but I think it represents some prudence on the part of the Pentagon. And look, I Hope any moment now we get some good news. I think the point David made about this being night, that's to the advantage of the downed pilot. And no, I'm not surprised that they had found one pilot but not the other. Evasion is very important and we don't know the status of the situation in the area where they came down. The first thing they're going to do is try and evade any close proxy troops that are in close proximity. They also are going to try and establish communications with the potential rescuers and that's going to be absolutely critical to make sure they're guided to the right place. Looking back at the examples from Kosovo, from Bosnia, we can go back historically to the Vietnam War, Desert Storm, Korea. It is so important that those pilots stay away from potential capture. Otherwise they're in for a long and potentially brutal period of captivity in the hands of the Iranians.
- [14:42]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah, General, to Mark's point, and we know how important it is that the Iranians right now are saying this. And again, I caveat that as it is state controlled media, so it is, you know, to the extent that we know anything about it, completely unverifiable, but they are putting out a bounty offering anyone who can capture that remaining service member, if he or she is alive, some kind of reward. What is going on through the mind of the Iranian regime right now and how can the capture of this American service member be used as leverage?
- [15:15]
General Randy Manor
Anytime that you have a American service member missing in action in this kind of a situation, if the enemy was to obtain them alive or or not, it will be a huge propaganda coup for them with the implication that the United States could not take care of their own or rescue our own pilots. So they can leverage this for propaganda significantly. And of course, anytime that happens, we have to remember that there are families behind every one of these missing this missing pilot. And so it is something that not only is very harmful, of course, for that family, but for the American military in general. This is one of those things where I hope that this is again, we try to de escalate the situation rather than escalate the situation because sometimes people can get all pumped up and quite frankly seek additional blood when things like this happen. I hope that cooler heads prevail and we're able to work through this in a way that reduces the loss of life.
- [16:15]
Eamonn Brennan
David, of course, it's in moments like these that people really want to hold on to international law, that countries and participants of war who are involved in any kind of combat adhere to the rules of international law that if this service member is captured that he or she is treated with respect. He or she, his life is preserved, taken care of. It obviously is complicated by the fact that our own secretary of defense was recently talking about violating the rules of war. Tell me a little bit about, you know, what the diplomatic effort might be involved in trying to get to Iranian officials that if they do capture this American service member, they want him treated well.
- [16:57]
David Rhode
It's crystal clear in military law and international law about how you treat a prisoner of war under the Geneva Conventions. The pilot, you know, should not be physically abused in any way and be kept safe. It is it's rhetoric coming from the administration, but Secretary Hegcess has talked about showing no quarter to the enemy, that meaning quarter in the sense of killing all of your enemies. And the president's threat to attack power plants is problematic. Also this Monday deadline you mentioned it's possible to attack some power plants if they are supplying electricity to a military facility or somehow part of a war effort. But he' sthe president's talked about generally all plants, power plants in Iran. Vladimir Putin has been doing that in Ukraine and has been criticized because that is a war crime. And so it's rhetoric. The US hasn't done that yet. But it does create a danger, I think, to American service members if they are taken captive.
- [17:58]
Eamonn Brennan
Mark, I want to give you a chance to weigh in on that as well.
- [18:02]
Mark Jacobson
I'm very worried about this part. If we want to take let's take ourselves and the viewers back to 2006 and what the late Senator McCain and the late Senator Levin were doing in terms of making sure that the US Military adhered to a standard of detention and interrogation that would, amongst other things, make sure that we could go out, call out those who did not treat our own soldiers well. And we know our history, whether it's Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, et cetera. And I do worry that that will be used as an excuse by the Iranians to mistreat our prisoners. There is, as the general said, great propaganda value in putting unharmed captured individuals out there and showing the strength and prowess in humanity. But again, I worry about this piece, and I do worry that the statements coming from the administration, in particular the Secretary of Defense, may not achieve what he wants to see for our troops, and that is that they are protected when they are captured in times of war.
- [19:05]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah, absolutely. An important point. Marc Jacobs and David Rowe, thank you very much for starting us off today. General Manor, please stick around with us. We want to talk to you when we come back. We're going to talk with a former fighter pilot on what is supposed to happen when US Military planes are shot down inside hostile territory. Plus, with the war in Iran showing no obvious signs of slowing down, Pete HEXIT's decision to fire experienced military leaders and the blocking of promotions for others coming under heavy scrutiny today, we're going to dig into that as well. And later in the show, if you want a sense of just how quickly the Department of Justice has moved on from Pam Bondi, look no further than this trash can. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break.
- [19:46]
Mark Jacobson
Don't go anywhere.
- [19:52]
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- [20:20]
Nicole Wallace
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- [20:52]
Eamonn Brennan
The urgent search operation continues for the second American on board a fighter jet that went down in ir. US Officials say a crew member was rescued earlier today. This is the first US War plane that has gone down in hostile territory since the war began five weeks ago. I want to bring into the conversation retired U.S. marine Corps Lt. Col. Amy McGrath. She was the first woman to fly a combat mission for the Marines and flew over 2000 flight hours on over 85 combat missions during her career. She's a candidate for the open Senate seat in Kentucky and General Manor is still with us. Amy, let me begin with your background here as a former fighter pilot. Just talk us through the kind of training these crew members had to go through and prepare for and what's at stake for them in this moment.
- [21:42]
Amy McGrath
So I flew a very similar aircraft to the F15 that was shot down on lots of combat missions in Iraq and Afghanistan and over hostile territory. And every single flight we go over procedures of what happens if we are shot down or have to eject and over hostile territory. And I can tell you that we all know that the search and rescue units that are sent, if we are shot down, those search and rescue units are the best we know they are. We train with them. The first thing that people have to understand is the ejection itself from an aircraft that is been shot down is a very violent thing to undergo. And you know, you may not even survive an ejection. You, if you do, you might be injured. Once you're down on the ground, the first thing you're thinking about is evading and making sure that you stay away from anybody that might capture you. And then you're trying to get a hold of those combat search and rescue crews. And we have some communication equipment to be able to do that. We're trained on that. And again, we're briefed on these procedures and we brief ourselves as aircrew every single mission. So highly trained here.
- [22:57]
Eamonn Brennan
Amy, can I ask you about that ejection mechanism for a moment? Because if there were two service members on the plane, I was asking Mark about this earlier. How unlikely is it that they are not together and that during the ejection process they were separated and one was rescued and the other still status unknown?
- [23:20]
Amy McGrath
Well, Eamonn, when you have an ejection out of a plane like the F15, they're gonna get the both air crew are gonna be ejected very quickly, one right after the other. We're talking like within a second. So they're going to be in the same area. It's highly unlikely that one would. Would not be ejected unless there was some malfunction there. And we just don't know that right now. You know, this is ongoing, but they're probably in the same general area. It's not likely that one stayed in the aircraft and the other was ejected out of the aircraft, if that's what you're asking.
- [24:01]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah. So to that point, General, you know, you were talking about this a little bit in terms of the tools that are available for the military to conduct this search and rescue operation. What are the nature of the forces that are involved in this? You referenced your son earlier, but I suspect at some point there would be troops on the ground, American boots on the ground ground, going over this terrain, going over this territory, and perhaps even trying to secure the location from oncoming Iranian troops who may be also looking through that area.
- [24:30]
General Randy Manor
Absolutely. And by the way, I want to definitely a shout out to Amy for her past service and continued service to our country. That's quite an honor to have her here. It will take hundreds of people in multiple aircraft to be able to retrieve that pilot. They are not likely to put boots on the ground in terms of the Air Force parad jumpers unless they notice remains or a parachute or they receive the signal itself. So you're not going to just put troops on the ground to do searching. You're going to use thermal methods, you're going to use electronic means to be able to determine where they are. You have the capability with those HC 130s and the Blackhawks, these are highly skilled people to be able to go in and to be able to find either again the aircraft or parts of the aircraft or to pick up any special signals in to help secure and safeguard the pilot once they locate him.
- [25:25]
Eamonn Brennan
Amy, talk to us about how you viewed the President's comments today where in the midst of all of this and you know, all of this country now concerned about the families of these service members and their well being and the search and rescue operation and then even those that are now going to go in harm's way to look for this second service member and the President deciding to come out and post about oil against this backdrop.
- [25:57]
Amy McGrath
I mean, every single time the president makes a post like this, it's just, it hurts. It hurts because we have men and women in harm's way right now fighting for a war that he started without the backing of the American people, without the backing of Congress. I am thinking of all the air crew involved in this dangerous mission right now, this rescue mission, reports of other, possibly other aircraft down. I just feel like the president is, it's just sad to see that that focus right now. And two days ago, remember he, he stood up in front of the American people and said the Iranians didn't have their air defenses, were decimated. Well, clearly that's not true. We're at war. He needs to be focused on that.
- [26:51]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah, you bring up an important point. He in the past, he said Iran's nuclear program was obliterated. He said Iran's air defenses were decimated. And clearly there's a bit of a disconnect there between that reality and what we're seeing play out. Do you believe this situation is escalating rapidly out of the control of the President? He said this war had been over in the first hour when we decapitated the Iranian regime. He said initially it could be a couple of days, maybe two to three weeks. We are now five weeks into this and a couple of days ago he told the American people it could be yet another two to three weeks.
- [27:25]
Amy McGrath
The president has been all over the Map. If anybody that listened or watched his speech two nights ago, he is all over the place. He does not know how to get out of this. He says that he is in negotiations right now, but he can't tell us with who. We somehow keep assassinating the people that we're supposed to be negotiating with. The Strait of Hormuz is still closed. He says that the Iranians, their air defenses have been destroyed, and yet they just shot down one of our aircraft. He is all over the place. And I'm very worried that as I was worried when we got in this war, that it's not strategically sound. I don't think he has a strategy to get out of it.
- [28:07]
Eamonn Brennan
General, I wanted to give you the final thought about the adherence to international law, because as we were talking about the Iranian state TV is offering those bounties on Americans if any Iranian residents find that service member to hand them over to Iranian security forces. And we juxtapose that with what we are hearing from our Secretary of Defense and our President who is threatening to bomb power plants. We've already seen him bomb a bridge. We're hearing the Secretary of Defense saying, effectively the rules of war don't apply to the way he's conducting this war. I'm just curious to get your thoughts on how you view what now is the perilous situation our service member finds himself in and the rhetoric coming out of our own administration.
- [28:56]
General Randy Manor
All of our military personnel are in greater risk than they have ever been before in terms of any other previous administration. We have a Secretary of Defense who has actually stated words in his speeches and in writing that are literally the words of potential war criminals. Even if the President pardons him for these things, the Hague will eventually come to get him. It's very disheartening whenever the Secretary of Defense, who we're supposed to look up to for guidance and counsel and strategy, is saying things about show no quarter, which by its quote, is prohibited and defined in US Law as a war crime. The idea of attacking infrastructure that affects civilians is a war crime. So it goes on and on. And our military members start to question what are we doing here? If we're attacking, for example, a bridge, a bridge under construction, it just doesn't make any sense in terms of what are the military objectives, which seem to keep changing on a regular basis. And if you don't have military objectives and then you know when success has been achieved, that means all you're going to do is get further and further involved in this warfare, and it's going to go worse and worse for the United States and for the American public in terms of the oil prices. Just as an example.
- [30:14]
Eamonn Brennan
General Randy Manor, Amy McGrath, thank you to the both of you. Really appreciate your time and insights. After the break, Pete Hexit's purging of Pentagon leaders, why he's playing culture war games and firing experienced leaders in the military. We're going to have much more after a quick break. We'll be right back.
- [30:34]
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- [31:21]
Eamonn Brennan
The war in Iran, which has cost the lives of 13 service members and currently has the United States military desperately searching for a missing service member in Iran, has not stopped Pete Hexseth and his purge at the Pentagon. Hexith has fired Army Chief of Staff Randy George, who was the Army's top uniformed officer, along with two other generals. The Pentagon confirmed the firing, saying that George would be retiring from his position immediately. According to the New York Times, Georgia's senior Army officers reacted with anger and frustration to the news of General George's dismissal, characterizing it as the latest blow to a service that already feels under siege by Hexith. The firing of George is the latest in a wave of meddling that Hexith has involved himself in at the Pentagon. NBC News reports that Hexith has interfered with the promotion of more than a dozen senior military officers, which include Hexith personally blocking the promotions of four officers set to become one star generals. Two of them were black and two of whom were women. According to the New York Times, in the weeks ahead of the defense secretary blocking their promotion, Hexith has been pressing Secretary of the Army Dan Driscoll and General George for months to remove the officers from the promotion list. But Mr. Driscoll and General George refused, citing the officer's long records of exemplary service. Joining me at the table, Paul Reichoff. He is the host of The Independent Americans podcast and the founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America. Also with us, political analyst Molly Jung Fast. She is the host of Fast Politics and a New York Times contributing opinion writer. The crazy thing about this, Molly, is that General George was confirmed, I believe, 96 to 1 in the Senate confirmation hearing when he was promoted to that position. And it seems like this is the new normal for Pete Hexith. Right. That irrespective of the confirmation process, irrespective of the endorsement that an officer has from his officers and the rank and file soldiers, Pete Hexseth is willing to politicize somebody who stands up to him or disagrees with him on something.
- [33:31]
Molly Jung Fast
Yeah. You know, it's like they're doing all the stuff they accused the left of doing, Right. They were like, it's a woke army. It's this. It's politicized. And then here you have someone who is a political actor, really, who's been on television, Hegseth. Who is now firing someone who's, you know, a 96, you know, 96 senators voting for someone shows that they are not a political animal, that they are, in fact, a nonpartisan actor in the military. Yeah. And again, like, when you look at that reporting about the members, the generals who were up for promotions. Right. They were taken from, you know, put taken out of promotion for, you know, and you have the other people who are like nonpartisan military actors saying there's no reason to remove them. So there is actually. They are actually doing the very thing that they have accused the woke left.
- [34:24]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah. There was in projection, Paul, what do you think this sends? What type of message? We're in the middle of a war. This is when you're expecting, you know, the entire chain of command to be unified, to at least be on the same page, even if there is, you know, through the normal process, disagreements about tactics and strategy. But in the middle of a war, what message does this send that you are firing somebody like General George?
- [34:49]
Paul Reichoff
The message it sends that is that loyalty is prized over integrity. And this has always been Hegseth. Hegseth has demanded loyalty. He's always been what I call the acting Secretary of Culture War because he's always been focused on the culture war and battling the woke and battling DEI and battling the liberals, much more so than battling Putin or even battling our enemies in the Middle East. He's always wanted to cleanse the Pentagon of anyone who opposed him or wasn't in lockstep with the administration. Here's the real problem now. He's in an unpopular war. He's in a forever war that a lot of people in the Pentagon don't like either. And if they speak out critically about that, you're going to see, I think, a new wave of purges and firings that are happening. There's also an internal political, political conflict happening between Hegseth and Army Secretary Dan Driscoll that's now starting to trickle out. He can't fire Driscoll, but he can fire the generals around him. Only the President can get rid of Driscoll. And there's concerns that Driscoll might overshadow Hegseth, that he could even replace Hegseth. So there's some internal conflict happening, and the calls are coming from inside the House. There are a lot of people who don't respect Hegseth. He's got very little support from the rank and file civilians across the Army. And that popularity continues to plummet. And as the war continues to go sideways, and if not south, he's going to be on the hook for a lot of it. He's going to demand loyalty. And I hope that we hear from these generals finally, who've been fired. They often don't speak out. They don't want to cross that political Rubicon. Now is the time for us to hear from them because our democracy requires it.
- [36:06]
Eamonn Brennan
You called him the acting Secretary of Culture wars, and I think that's so important because I guess you definitely do not want any cultural wars happening in our military. You don't want morale to be eroded as a result of these politicized culture wars that somebody like Pete Hexseth is leaning into. And yet that is exactly what he's doing going forward, not just in the next week or two. What is the long term damage to our military, to our national security, because of the culture wars that Pete Hexseth has injected into the military?
- [36:37]
Paul Reichoff
It narrows it. It makes it look more like Trump's army. It makes it look more like the MAGA Army. I mean, another thing that Hegseth did here is he fired the head of the Chaplain Corps because he wants to enhance the chaplain. He wants more religion. He wants more of his brand of religion. He invokes Jesus almost every time where, you know, only 80% or so of the force is Christian to everyone else. He's not talking to you. So if you're not Christian, if you don't believe in Jesus, you probably don't feel as welcome in this military right now as you might have under a previous administration. Also yesterday, he also took time to decide he was going to allow open carry firearms on military bases. In the middle of all this, after his president gave a terribly failure of a speech, he posted a video how he's going to allow open carries on military bases. He's focused on that instead of focus on our enemies, which is a continued focus on the culture war. And I would argue right now it seems like Pete Hegseth might be interested in running for president because he's much more interested in these political issues, these culture war issues than he is in fighting our wars overseas.
- [37:35]
Eamonn Brennan
All right, Paul and Molly, stay with us. We're going to squeeze in a quick break. When we come back, how some of the administration's most loyal supporters are reacting to this war. We're going to show you some of that next. We are back with Paul and Molly. Molly, let me get your thoughts. And one of the things I've said is that perhaps there's no bigger lie that Donald Trump sold the American people that he was not going to start any new wars or wars in the Middle East. And let me play for you two people who endorse Donald Trump and now seem to have regrets. Take a listen to Joe Rogan and Theo Von
- [38:10]
General Randy Manor
I guess, yeah, like, yeah, I don't know, man. Everybody just feels scared and it makes sense.
- [38:14]
Joe Rogan
Well, they should because a lot of things are getting exposed right now. You know, there's a lot of fraud and you're seen at the highest levels of government. And people are also scared because no one's getting in trouble for things like no one's getting in trouble for the Epstein files. No one's getting in trouble for.
- [38:29]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah, that's almost disappeared kind of.
- [38:31]
Joe Rogan
Well, that's part of what happens when there's some sort of a big social thing. One thing that's in the past that leaders have used to cover up problems at home is a war. I'm not saying that that's why they bombed Iran, but that would be a way to do it. If you're that psychotic, you know, and if you were thinking about doing it anyway, you might be able to justify it.
- [38:55]
Eamonn Brennan
You might be able to justify it. He never went to the American people to even explain it, didn't go to Congress to explain it. The goalposts are shifting. But he's clearly lost two people that and I'm not excusing the fact that they went out there and said vote for Donald Trump, but it seems like he's lost Theo Vaughn and Joe Rogan. What does it say about his base in support for this war.
- [39:12]
Molly Jung Fast
Right. And you have to wonder how much is them reflecting their base. Right. The people who listen to them. So they are right. They know this war is very unpopular. Look, I do think, like, the biggest lie was definitely no foreign wars. The second biggest was, I'm going to make things cheaper.
- [39:31]
Eamonn Brennan
Right.
- [39:32]
Molly Jung Fast
He came in on anger that the American people had, and he, you know, he was as popular as he's ever been. He won the popular vote. For this guy to win the popular vote, it was kind of amazing. And he has literally done everything he said he wouldn't do. And there's, like, no historical precedent for a president going in. And, like, it's one thing to go in and try and not be able to do something, but it's another thing to go in and just, like, expressly do the opposite of what you said you were gonna. And I'm shocked that his numbers aren't lower. The other thing is they have never, ever even tried to sell this war. Even tried to say, like, even, you know, even in the movie Wag the Dog, which was about a war distracting from something else, they at least were like, this is why we're going to war.
- [40:17]
Amy McGrath
Never.
- [40:18]
Molly Jung Fast
And then the idea here is that, how would you even know that the war was won? Because there's no goal.
- [40:25]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah. And, you know, to your point, I mean, I remember George W. Bush spent a year going to the UN and going to the American public and Colin Powell at least trying to make the case, and they didn't even do that here. I think one of the important things, speaking of the commander, Commander in chief, is the way he communicates the American people. And as I said, we started this show with the search and rescue operation. A lot of people praying for the safety of the service member today. And the commander in chief who has been briefed on this operation comes out, doesn't post about the missing service member or the heroes that went in to rescue that other service member. He tweets, keep the oil, anyone?
- [41:05]
Paul Reichoff
And these are the most delicate moments that a commander in chief can face, and he's not good at them. And I think he's failing spectacularly to understand the complexity of the moment, to offer the right tone. But going back to the base, there's a really important point here. He ran against the man. He ran against the system. He ran against the government. Now he's all those things. And the populist part of this country that hates government, that hates the authorities, that wants to eat the rich, is coming for him because he's making profits he's clearly in charge. He's also floating things like a potential draft. And when you see Theo Vaughn and you see Joe Rogan, you see Sean Ryan, it's a breaking point. They're done. They've had it with him. And I hear this from a lot of people I served with who supported Trump, a lot of people I grew up with who support Trump. They're done. And the big lie is now that he said no foreign wars, no forever wars, no regime change wars. And the question is, who's going to break ranks internally? Cuz Tulsi Gabbard said it too. So at some point, is she going to break ranks? Is Dan Driscoll gonna leave? Are one of these generals gonna speak out? Because the dam is breaking. The question now is who's next?
- [42:06]
Eamonn Brennan
Yeah. And we still have two and a half years left of this administration. Paul Rykoff, Molly Junkos, great tablosi with us. Thank you so much. After the break, we're gonna switch gears for a moment. News of another legal challenge to Trump's election power grab. We'll tell you about that. A group of attorneys general, all Democrats from 23 states, filed a laws an effort to block Donald Trump's latest attack on mail in voting, which he backs with debunked claims of widespread voter fraud as democracy docket points out. This lawsuit now represents the fourth legal challenge to Trump's new executive order, which the attorneys general, according to that reporting, call a quote, shocking and unprecedented power grab. They write in part, quote, neither the Constitution nor any act of Congress confers upon the president the authority to mandate sweeping changes to states, electoral systems or procedures. After the break. Much more on the search for the second airman in that war plane shot down over Iran. And we'll also turn to firing of Pam Bondi and what's next at the Justice Department. Much more ahead as deadline White House continues after this break.
- [43:22]
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