“Used as pawns”

Summary

Deadline: White House – Episode Summary: “Used as Pawns”

Release Date: June 10, 2025
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MSNBC

In the compelling episode titled “Used as Pawns,” Nicolle Wallace delves deep into the unfolding political and social crisis in Los Angeles, driven by aggressive immigration enforcement and unprecedented military deployments. Drawing on exclusive reports, expert interviews, and on-the-ground observations, Wallace unpacks the intricate dynamics between the Trump administration's policies, local governance, and the affected communities.

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1. The Catalyst: Aggressive ICE Raids

The episode opens with a groundbreaking report from the Wall Street Journal, which uncovers the Trump administration's directive to Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). Wallace explains that Stephen Miller, a senior White House aide, instructed ICE to conduct indiscriminate raids, targeting immigrants regardless of their legal status or criminal background.

Notable Quote:
“Federal agents needed to, 'just go out there and arrest illegal aliens,'” (Alicia Menendez, [00:38]).

This directive marked a significant departure from traditional immigration enforcement practices, which typically prioritize individuals with criminal records or those posing public safety threats.

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2. Escalation: Deployment of Military Forces

As a direct consequence of the ICE raids, particularly a high-profile sweep at a Home Depot in the predominantly Latino neighborhood of Westlake, Los Angeles, public unrest erupted. In response, the Trump administration deployed 700 Marines and 2,000 National Guard troops to Los Angeles—a move made without the consent of local authorities.

Notable Quote:
“We know that they were sparked by a Trump administration where there are no checks on the worst autocratic impulses of Donald Trump and his enablers,” (Alicia Menendez, [00:38]).

This rapid militarization of a major American city sparked widespread condemnation and fears of overreach.

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3. Legal Pushback: Governor Newsom’s Stand

California Governor Gavin Newsom, along with Attorney General Rob Bonta, initiated legal action to halt the deployment, arguing that it violated the Posse Comitatus Act, which limits the use of military forces in civilian law enforcement.

Governor Newsom’s Statement:
“These unlawful deployments have already proven to be a deeply inflammatory and unnecessary provocation,” ([70:43]).

Despite these efforts, a federal judge declined the immediate restraining order but scheduled a hearing for Thursday, intensifying the legal battle.

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4. On the Ground: Reporters’ Perspectives

Jacob Soboroff, reporting live from the Metropolitan Detention Center, provides a vivid depiction of the current scenario. He notes the minimal presence and limited active role of National Guard troops, countering Governor Newsom’s assertion that they are being used as "pawns."

Notable Observation:
“What you're looking at is deployed members... basically standing outside and carrying out whatever mission the President has tasked them with,” (Jacob Soboroff, [06:18]).

Elizabeth Finds from the Wall Street Journal highlights the systemic changes in ICE operations, emphasizing the shift towards blanket enforcement without targeted criteria.

Notable Quote:
“We are seeing masked agents taking people into custody without identifying themselves,” (Elizabeth Finds, [16:35]).

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5. Leadership Responses: Governor, Mayor, and Attorney General

Governor Newsom vehemently criticizes the administration's actions, describing the deployment as an abuse of power and a threat to civil liberties.

Governor Newsom’s Plea:
“Show some decency. Show some humanity. More importantly, act like the commander in chief,” ([05:24]).

Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass echoes these sentiments, emphasizing the unnecessary provocation and the readiness of local law enforcement to handle the situation without federal intervention.

Mayor Bass’s Insight:
“This is not an insurrection. These are paid insurrectionists,” ([76:15]).

Attorney General Bonta articulates the legal challenges, asserting that the President lacks the statutory authority for such deployments and emphasizing the detrimental impact on community trust and public safety.

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6. Analyzing the President’s Strategy: Power Projection and Suppression

Nicolle Wallace and co-hosts analyze President Trump's tactics, suggesting that the militarization serves a dual purpose: intimidating dissent and validating a narrative of law and order to his right-wing base.

Wallace’s Analysis:
“Donald Trump is spoiling for a fight... He is simply gearing up to declare the Insurrection Act,” ([21:13]).

The discussion highlights the absence of military leadership like General Mark Milley, who previously opposed such overreach, leaving the President unchecked in his authoritarian impulses.

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7. Impacts on Communities: Fear and Division

The indiscriminate raids and militarized response have instilled widespread fear among immigrant communities, disrupting families and exacerbating tensions. Jacob Soboroff captures the anxiety among local residents, many of whom have undocumented family members, highlighting the poignant human cost of these policies.

Protester’s Voice:
“What stops them from coming up here and snatching me up?” ([54:00]).

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8. The Broader Implications: Threats to Democracy and Civil Liberties

Wallace emphasizes the dangers of deploying the military against peaceful protesters, framing it as a chilling precedent for future authoritarian actions.

Wallace’s Warning:
“This is an extreme, extremely dangerous moment for constitutional guardrails,” ([21:13]).

The episode underscores the erosion of democratic norms and the potential for escalating governmental overreach, drawing parallels to historical abuses of military power.

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9. Conclusion: A Test Case for American Democracy

“Used as Pawns” culminates in portraying Los Angeles as a critical test case for the resilience of American democratic institutions. The episode stresses the urgent need for legal intervention and public awareness to prevent the normalization of military involvement in civilian governance.

Final Thought by Governor Newsom:
“What we are seeing is because of one individual's attempt at a vanity play,” ([32:18]).

Wallace calls for unity and vigilance to safeguard civil liberties against the creeping tide of authoritarianism, urging listeners to remain informed and active in the defense of democratic principles.

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Key Takeaways:

• Stephen Miller’s directive fundamentally shifted ICE’s approach, leading to widespread enforcement actions without proper targeting.
• Military deployment in Los Angeles, contrary to local leadership’s stance, signifies a potential power grab and undermines civilian authority.
• Legal battles are underway to contest the President’s overreach, highlighting the tension between federal and state powers.
• Community impact is profound, with increased fear and division among immigrant populations, further strained by aggressive law enforcement tactics.
• Democratic norms are at risk, as the episode underscores the need for robust legal and societal responses to prevent authoritarian misuse of military power.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “Federal agents needed to, 'just go out there and arrest illegal aliens,'” (Alicia Menendez, [00:38]).
• “Show some decency. Show some humanity. More importantly, act like the commander in chief,” (Gavin Newsom, [05:24]).
• “Donald Trump is spoiling for a fight... He is simply gearing up to declare the Insurrection Act,” (Nicolle Wallace, [21:13]).
• “This is an extreme, extremely dangerous moment for constitutional guardrails,” (Nicolle Wallace, [21:13]).
• “What we are seeing is because of one individual's attempt at a vanity play,” (Gavin Newsom, [32:18]).

This episode serves as a poignant exploration of the fragility of democratic institutions in the face of authoritarian tendencies, urging listeners to remain vigilant and proactive in upholding civil liberties.

Transcript

[Nicole Wallace]

Deadline. White House is brought to you by Progressive, where drivers who save by switching save nearly $750 on average. Plus auto customers qualify for an average of 7 discounts. Quote [e-mail] to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates national average 12 month savings of $744 by new customers surveyed who save with Progressive between June 2022 and May 2023. Potential savings will vary. Discounts not available in all states and situations.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi there everybody. It's four o'clock in New York. There's some brand new reporting in the Wall Street Journal today. It's truly extraordinary and it's the kind of reporting that puts a somewhat disorienting and in some ways blurry picture into very sharp focus. The new reporting reveals a chain of events that lead up to the standoff in Los Angeles and reveals that they were sparked by a Trump administration where there are no checks on the worst autocratic impulses of Donald Trump and his enablers. Wall Street Journal is reporting that last month White House aide Stephen Miller pushed ICE to round up immigrants off the streets, regardless of whether or not they had committed any crimes or whether or not they were alleged to be gang members. From that stunning new reporting, quote, federal agents needed to, quote, just go out there and arrest illegal aliens, end quote, Stephen Miller told top ICE officials who had come from across the U.S. according to people familiar with the meeting. Agents didn't need to develop target lists of immigrants suspected of being in the US Illegally, a long standing practice, Miller said. Instead, he directed them to target Home Depot, where day laborers typically gather for hire or seven eleven convenience stores. Stephen Miller bet that he and a handful of agents could go out on the streets of Washington, D.C. and arrest 30 people right away. In other words, what this new reporting in the Wall Street Journal reveals is that Stephen Miller wanted and told ICE to throw out the rules and just grab people off the streets at Home Depot, for example. That's what this reporting reveals. No prioritizing of migrants with criminal records or migrants who could be public safety threats, which is what border czar Tom Homan continues to claim is the focus and claimed repeatedly would happen starting on day one of the Trump administration. It's a process that actually has high levels of public support among all sorts of voters. Instead, they took this other path at that fork in the road, Miller calling for ICE to just round up people wherever they were, regardless of their status or whether they were in the middle of a legal immigration process. And that is indeed what we are covering. We know that's what we're seeing happen in Los Angeles and elsewhere. Wall Street Journal adds this quote, ICE agents appeared to follow Miller's tip and conducted an immigration sweep Friday at the Home Depot in the predominantly Latino neighborhood of Westlake in Los Angeles, helping set off a weekend of protests around Los Angeles County. Now the Trump administration has sent 700 Marines to Los Angeles. Another 2,000 National Guard troops are on the way as well to be part of a mission that right now appears hastily put together. The San Francisco Chronicle took and published these jaw dropping photos. These are troops sleeping on the floor of basements of federal buildings and loading docks. State and local officials remain deeply opposed to the presence of any troops in Los Angeles. They didn't call for them. They insist they can handle whatever sporadic violence has erupted in these protests with law enforcement. Today, the Attorney General of California filed a temporary restraining order seeking to stop the deployment of the National Guard, telling the court this quote, to put it bluntly, there is no invasion or rebellion in Los Angeles. There is civil unrest that is no different from episodes that regularly occur in communities throughout the country and that is capable of being contained by state and local authorities working together. The New York Times reports this about what's happening on the ground. Quote, on Monday, police officers arrested some protesters in downtown LA and dispersed others who remained in the Little Tokyo neighborhood with tear gas and flashbang grenades. But there generally seemed to be fewer clashes between protesters and police than on Sunday. Governor Gavin Newsom had this message for Donald Trump last night. Take a listen.

[Gavin Newsom]

Stand back. Rescind this absurd, illegal and immoral order. Let our military go home.

[Nicole Wallace]

The absurdity of threatening people of the.

[Gavin Newsom]

United States of America with their own military, our proud military, these remarkable men and women in uniform that do heroic work. Really proud of our Marines. I feel for them right now. I feel for our National Guard to be there in the fact that we had to send the pd, our local pd, to protect our own National Guard because they're being used as pawns. Mr. President.

[Nicole Wallace]

Show some decency.

[Gavin Newsom]

Show some humanity. More importantly, act like the commander in chief. If you want to be president, you might as well play the part as president, at least fake it. Do the right thing. Stand back and we'll clean up your mess.

[Alicia Menendez]

That's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. NBC's Jacob Soborough is back with us. He's reporting live from the Metropolitan Detention center where the National Guard is stationed. Also joining us, Wall Street Journal national reporter Elizabeth Finds. Here she is byline on that remarkable new piece of reporting we read from. We'll talk to her about that. Also joining us, MSNBC columnist, author of the newsletter to the Contrary. Charlie Sykes is here. Jacob, because you are in it. Just take us inside what you're seeing and hearing and reporting today.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Nicole, when Governor Newsom says the National Guard is being used as pawns, he's talking about these folks behind me and whether or not they want to be here. They sign up for the mission and they're here today. And what you're looking at is deployed members deployed by the President of the United States of America standing outside the Metropolitan Detention Center. And this is about the extent of what they're doing standing around because that is what they are allowed to do under the law. You mentioned that loading dock where National Guard troops were reportedly sleeping in the San Francisco Chronicle. I had some pictures. I can't tell you for sure if it is, but JB Rudigerama, come with me. There is a, there's a loading dock right here inside this federal building. This, as I mentioned, is the Metropolitan Detention center where ICE brings detainees. It is a federal building in downtown la. We've seen vehicles come in and come out. I'm not going to stick a microphone in these guys faces because they're not here to be interviewed by somebody like me. And they may not even want to be here, but they're not going to talk because they're under orders from the President, United States, to stand in front of this loading dock basically and carry out whatever mission the President has tasked them with doing. I want to remind everybody it is not a mission that Governor Gavin Newsom wanted them to do. It is not a mission that the mayor of Los Angeles, Karen Bass, asked for and it's a mission. Now, as you mentioned at the top of the show, Nicole, that, excuse me, both the Attorney General of California, Rob Bonta, and the governor are now suing with a temporary restraining order to get them recalled from being here and put them back under the control of the federal government. Some of the stuff you read, some of it, but I thought it was so important that I printed out and brought it here with me. The defendants, including President Trump and Secretary of Defense Hegseth, have sought to bring military personnel and a warrior culture. That's what you're looking at, at least. The allegation is from the governor to the cities and towns where Americans work and go to school, they quote unquote, seized control of 4,000 members of the National Guard and 700 active duty Marines. All of this was unlawful. The governor says the president and Secretary Hexth have made clear, publicly and privately, what they want to bring the Marines here to do is not stand outside the federal building, which confirms reporting from our colleague Julia Ainslie and others. These are unlawful deployments. And here's what I want. In fact, I want to show you. JB Come of me, Nicole. This is the extent of it, okay? This is the extent of what the National Guard is doing right now in Los Angeles, basically standing face to face with, really, a media circus. And some people who are here because they legitimately believe that I should not be conducting raids at Home Depots and at workplaces in the fashion district down the street. And they're protesting ICE the National Guard, if they weren't here, wouldn't be the ones being protested. But President Trump has placed the National Guard in between people that want to protest for the rights of migrants. And essentially, this building, if that's the loading dock that is in the photographs in the San Francisco Chronicle, that's where these folks have to go and stay, whether they're prepared or not. And the governor said, and has said publicly that they sent them here literally without the most basic rations in order to carry out what, whatever this mission is that they are here to carry out. And by the way, remember, they are the California National Guard, just like the rest of the people in this community, they are from it and of it. Their parents live in California, their cousins live in California, their siblings live in California. They went to school in California. They're just as much of this community as I am or anybody out here who is protesting right now. Again, just to repeat on a mission that they didn't ask for, nor did the governor, who normally controls them, deploy them for. And I think it is really important to remember that when you see people out here causing a fuss late in the evening because they're upset with what the president has done.

[Alicia Menendez]

Jacob Severoff, it looks like at least where you're standing, there's more media than protesters. Can we, can we see what is, can we see that shot again, what the protest looks like?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Come on, J.B. i want to show how there's. And Nicole, you're exactly right. There's just as many this way. JB There were just as many media here as protesters. And I think that that's right. Like, look, Nicole, across the. This has become sort of the focal point for everybody around the world when they're thinking about what's happening in Los Angeles. But that's why I wanted to be at the Home Depot with you yesterday. This isn't a story about lots of media people standing on the street waiting for people to show up tonight and throw rocks and throw bottles because they're upset about this deployment. This is a story about the people of Los Angeles. And some of them are here. Let's keep going for a second. You have people here that are protesting ice. People are upset that members down on this end. Nicole, come with me. JB this way is where some of the protesters have assembled. And, and they're here. And they're legitimately, legitimately mad. But, but there are, there are just as many, I would say, here, members of the media as happened in these circumstances. And, and maybe even members of the National Guard as there are people here who want to say, look, it's about our community. We don't want this here.

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah, let me ask you this question. I mean, is there a.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Did you hear that?

[Alicia Menendez]

Yeah. Is there a scenario where there are members of the National Guard who could be asked to protect ICE agents who are patrolling their streets and their towns and their communities and potentially their family members?

[Jacob Soboroff]

There is no doubt about it as these Bearcat style vehicles roll in here. Nicole. And in fact, I'll take it a step further. I don't have confirmation of this, and I don't know for certain, but there is a pretty good chance, Nicole, there's a lot of vehicles rolling up right now actually live, that members of the California National Guard may very well have undocumented family members, parents or cousins, or you name it. Most people who live in California know somebody who's undocumented. It wouldn't be a stretch to believe that people who are deployed for the National Guard, whether they want to or not, have undocumented family members or people in their close network that are undocumented as well. And I think that's just the fact of the matter. Knowing what's happening here in California and.

[Alicia Menendez]

Who lives here, can I ask you, like, a baseline question? I mean, what someone said to me that there are protests on three blocks. I mean, what is the size and scale of the protests? And is there any scenario where it outpaces anything that the city of Los Angeles hasn't been able to contain in its history?

[Jacob Soboroff]

Almost certainly not, because. And I'll show you the sort of the zone. This is the Civic center, the middle of downtown Los Angeles. So here in Alameda, this has been sort of the main stretch of where the protests are. Last night, they stretched down into that area which is known as the Arts District. And Little Tokyo. That's a lovely part of downtown Los Angeles. But this is about the extent of where we have seen all of the action over the course of the last several days. The Los Angeles Police department has between 8 and 9,000 officers, down from nearly 10,000 at its peak. But that's a lot of officers. It's for a city the size of Los Angeles, 500 square miles. There's always people advocating they need more. But for a protest and an event of this size, most certainly they can handle it. We have Lakers parades for championships, Dodgers parades for championships that are far bigger. A million people come out into the streets. And the police department handles that. There's also the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, which also has thousands of officers, works in a mutual aid system with the local police department. The local police chief, Jim McDonald, the LAPD did say when things get out of hand, after they go through that mutual aid response system, the National Guard can and will get called in in certain circumstances. And he was thinking, you know, considering whether or not we. More helpful, given the. The series of events that are played out here since the president called out the National Guard. But by no means did they want it or did they request it or did they feel like they needed it on the front end of all.

[Alicia Menendez]

Jacob, stay with us. Elizabeth, let me bring you in on your reporting. It was a story that I saw. I was alerted, I stopped and read it. It's an incredible body of reporting. Take me through it.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Well, thank you very much. Yes, we really looked at what has changed with ICE enforcement leading up to this and the marching orders that they're getting from the White House. Stephen Miller, as you mentioned earlier, had this meeting in late May where he told agents from around the country that not enough people were being deported and that their focus should not be on criminals and on the target list that they've traditionally used, but on just going out and finding anyone who's in the country illegally and deporting them. And he said, why don't you try Home Depot? And why don't you try 7 11? And lo and behold, here just weeks later, we saw the targeting of Home Depots in L. A. Elizabeth, what is the.

[Alicia Menendez]

Is there anyone in the room, I guess, that would point out the lack of precedent or the lack of appropriateness for Stephen Miller to be directing law enforcement activity from the West Wing?

[Elizabeth Finds]

I can't really speak to the appropriateness of it, but we lay out in the story a number of things that have changed operationally at ICE for different reasons. Some. Some directives from above. And some things that have just changed sort of on a grassroots level on the ground. And that includes agents no longer needing to stick to their targets, being able to arrest anyone they encount, being able to arrest people in sensitive locations like courtrooms, schools, hospitals. We're seeing them frequently do masked arrests now and really using these splashy shows of force.

[Alicia Menendez]

Elizabeth, let me read from that, that part of the reporting you write, federal agents make warrantless arrests. Masked agents take people into custody without identifying themselves. Plainclothes agents in at least a dozen cities have arrested migrants who showed up to their court hearings. Across the US People suspected of being in the country illegally are disappearing into the federal detention system without notice to families or lawyers, according to attorneys, witnesses and officials. In Coral Springs, Florida, at least eight agents in tactical gear, shields and rifles surrounded a home with guns, raised to arrest a father with no criminal history. In Irvine, California, ICE agents drove a phalanx of military vehicles in the Orange county suburbs to arrest a person, though not for illegal immigration. They were seeking a resident's son who had allegedly posted flyers alerting neighbors to the presence of ICE agents. How widespread and how lacking in facts and evidence before all these kinds of aggressive tactics take place is the current operation.

[Elizabeth Finds]

You know, we're seeing these examples pop up all over the country. We're seeing them pop up in a lot of different contexts. And in many cases, the Trump administration and ICE officials themselves are not hiding what they're doing. They're proud of it. They're posting on social media videos of them smashing car windows and surrounding surrounding people with guns and the like. And there's a reason for that. It's a strategy to convince people to leave the country, to convince people not to come here in the first place. And they are leaning on these splashy shows of force. So I don't think we've seen the end of them.

[Alicia Menendez]

I'm going to ask all of you to stick around. I want to pull Charlie Sykes in on the other side of the break. Also ahead for us, just days after Donald Trump ordered troops into the streets of Los Angeles, he is warning other potential protesters in Washington this time of heavy force, should they try and exercise their First Amendment rights and make their voices heard. Our next guest says it is another example of Trump using the US Military to dictate the terms and the conditions on the ground and the danger it poses to put fellow citizens to pit fellow citizens against one another. Retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling will be our guest. And later in the broadcast, Jacob sober Off will be back with his interview with Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass. All those stories and much more with Deadly White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Today.

[Jen Psaki]

MSNBC's Jen Psaki, host of the Briefing.

[Elizabeth Finds]

We've never experienced a moment like this in our country and it leaves us.

[Alicia Menendez]

All with a choice.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Are we gonna speak out or are.

[Nicole Wallace]

We gonna be pressured into silence? I've worked for presidents.

[Alicia Menendez]

I've faced the tough questions from the press and even threats from the Kremlin. And if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you can't cower to bullies. You don't need to be hopeless.

[Elizabeth Finds]

We have our voices and I will continue using mine.

[Charlie Sykes]

The Briefing with Jen Psaki Tuesday through.

[Nicole Wallace]

Friday at 9pm Eastern on MSNBC.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Hey everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Co host of the Bloomberg Odd Lots podcast, Joe Weisenthal. There's the story of the real economy and then there's the story of the financial markets. But I also think there is this sort of distinct and maybe you could call it political, maybe you could call it geopolitical, I'm not sure. So this other story, which is just about Trump the character as he tries to negotiate in the world and establish himself as the master negotiator, which he seems to see himself as a deals person, that's this week on why is this Happening?

[Nicole Wallace]

Search for why is this Happening?

[Jacob Soboroff]

We're listening right now and follow Mr. President, these protests obviously started in reaction.

[Charlie Sykes]

To these large scale ICE operations in Los Angeles.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Should people expect to see similar operations.

[Charlie Sykes]

In the rest of the country?

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, this is the first perhaps of many or perhaps, you know, if we didn't attack this one very strongly, you'd have them all over the country. But I can inform the rest of.

[Gavin Newsom]

The country that when they do it.

[Jen Psaki]

If they do it, they're going to be met with equal or greater force.

[Gavin Newsom]

Than we met right here.

[Alicia Menendez]

I guess the question, Charlie Sykes, is do it. What does that mean? Protest. Exercise their First Amendment rights for protest and free speech. What is it?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, he didn't. Well, he did not make a distinction, did he? But I mean, what's very clear is that Donald Trump is enjoying this. He is spoiling for a fight. He will use any disorder or violence as a pretext text to call in the troops to declare an emergency and to seize more power. And I do think that people need to understand the dynamic that in some ways he's changing the narrative from the abuses that you were talking about in the first 20 minutes of the show to this clash. He's very, very comfortable being the president of law and order, hoping that people will forget that he was, of course, the opposite on January 6, that he did not protect the police on January 6. But I think the people, again, do need to understand that right wing media just eating up the images of burning police cars. I think the use of the Mexican flags is deeply unwise and that every time there is what appears to be rioting going on, that goes viral on the right. And Donald Trump wants that to be the focus. He wants this fight. He has been spoiling for this fight. And to your question in the last segment, I think the extraordinary thing, of course, is that there's no General Mark Milley in the room, a chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff telling him that he cannot do this. There's no Secretary of Defense Mark Esper telling him that he cannot abuse the military against civilians. In fact, this is one of the things that he has done. He's created a government of yes men and yes women who in fact, will applaud and enable his cruelty, brutality and this campaign of fear that he's launching. So I think that we ought to brace ourselves. He was not bluffing when he said he was going to bring the Marines. The Marines, by the way, people need to understand that the Marines are an expeditionary force. They are designed to go to fight America's enemies abroad, not in the streets of American cities. But I think that he is simply gearing up to declare the Insurrection Act. He's been talking about this since the first term, and I think that he's intent on doing it. So this is an extreme, extremely dangerous moment for constitutional guardrails. And the abuse of due process and the abuse of the military is, feels very, very dystopian right now. I mean, some of us warned about this over the last couple of years and we were accused of Trump derangement Syndrome, and yet here we are.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, I think it's why there was such a hunger for the generals to speak out. And General John Kelly ultimately did. And what he warned about was exactly this. The reason he speaks out a week before the election in November is because Trump has tried so hard in his first term to use the military against the American people. A former senior military official said to me, if you understood the training of a Marine, they have trained to protect Americans from our enemies. And so when they are sent to a battlefield, they are trained to kill the enemy. So putting, putting active duty Marines in the streets of any American city is not popular. And I take your points about immigration. Trump has won twice. There's obviously something xenophobic and something in our DNA as a country where we will fall for attacks on immigrants and we can litigate why that is. But I take your point that that may be something that Trump is enjoying, but there is no public support for active duty military patrolling the street of American cities. 0.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, first of all, there's a reason why we have laws about that and there's a reason why we have decades of tradition against the use of active military serving military in the army of the Marines being used against civilians. So, you know, there, this is a, I mean, it will be very interesting to see how this plays out in the courts. I think, unfortunately, the president has sweeping powers under the Insurrection act, which he's going to do. And there are lots of, there's a lot of loopholes. But look, this may be an unpopular opinion, but Donald Trump's base likes what he's doing in Los Angeles. His voters like this on the right. Even some of the Trump skeptical folks out there are saying, you know, but this, this goes back to the forces of law and order against writing. Now, of course, the irony, it just burns when you consider the role that he played on January 6, his failure to bring in the troops, his failure to protect the thin line, the thin blue line, his pardons of the people who attack and beat police officers. And people need to remember this, that this is a man who just four and a half months ago pardoned people who spit on police officers, tased them, beat them with sticks and with clubs and with flagpoles, and now is posing. But there is the long tradition in this country of when there is disorder to side with the forces of law and order. And Donald Trump is also made it very, very clear that he likes the fact, I mean, you know, like Littlefinger in the character Littlefinger in Game of Thrones, chaos is a ladder. Chaos is a ladder for Donald Trump. It gives him the pretext to use his emergency power. And he has had a fetish for using the US Military since his first term. And we're going to see that on vivid display over the weekend when Washington, D.C. is turned into sort of a red square style military parade. But again, I hope that people are not shocked when you see polls showing that when it comes to dealing with what looks like rioters who are burning police cars, they're going to cut Donald Trump a lot of slack. Which is why I think it is important that the Protests be massive, but also peaceful.

[Alicia Menendez]

Elizabeth, I want to come back to the reporting, to the section that I read. Mass agents take people into custody without identifying themselves. They make warrantless arrests. Is the legal predicate for all this, that in the end, Trump will pardon them or Trump will have an Insurrection act narrative that makes it all retroactively appropriate, or what is, what is sort of the lawyering look like to get so many people to carry out such unprecedented displays of force, in your words?

[Elizabeth Finds]

Well, what ICE is saying to us is that they have the full legal authority to issue warrants after they've taken people into custody. They do have the right to take people into custody if they have probable cause. They have to have probable cause both that they're in the country illegally and that they would flee if, if they, if agents took the time to get warrants. And I think that's where we're seeing that legal gray, where we're seeing lawsuits is the question of, you know, how do you prove whether someone would flee if given more time? And with regards to the masking, ICE agents are very defensive, and they say that they're protecting themselves, that they're being doxed, that people are taking their pictures and putting them online and they're getting threats and that, you know, that's how they're defending that.

[Alicia Menendez]

Elizabeth, it's an incredible piece of reporting. Congratulations on really pulling back the curtain. And to your point, they're not hiding a lot of it, but there's a lot of incredible reporting in there as well. Thank you. And Charlie Sykes, thank you for spending time with us today. Up next for us, we'll turn back to the military and the president's military push, pushing military troops into American cities against the will of the governors who run those states and cities. And his warning today of even more force coming to the streets of America to police speech. We'll talk with the former US General about what that looks like and the images Donald Trump is trying to project. Much more news ahead. Don't go anywhere.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Donald Trump has no interest in standing up to violent protesters because he pardoned every single violent protester that tried to attack our Capitol and destroy our democracy. The fact of the matter is Donald Trump is not looking to create peace. He's not looking to calm the situation. He's looking for a fight. He's sending in the National Guard and.

[Charlie Sykes]

The Marines to try to inflame the.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Situation because he's looking for an excuse likely to be able to declare some kind of martial law.

[Alicia Menendez]

That was Senator Chris Murphy on Donald Trump's dangerous possible end game as Trump sends the men and women of the United States military to what appears to be an open ended deployment to the city of Los Angeles against the wishes of that city's mayor and that state's governor. It is a point Donald Trump himself seemed to confirm earlier today in the Oval Office as he seemed to fantasize about using force against anyone protesting his militarized birthday. Parade watch.

[Jen Psaki]

We're going to be celebrating big on Saturday. We're going to have a lot of and if there's any protester wants to come out, they will be met with very big force. By the way, for those people that want to protest, they're going to be met with very big force. And I haven't even heard about a protest. But you know, this is people that hate our country, but they will be met with very heavy force. Thank you very much.

[Alicia Menendez]

Joining our coverage is retired U.S. army Lt. Gen. Mark Herling. His military career spans more than three decades. He retired after serving as the commanding general of U.S. army Europe. I will admit this is the first time you've been on our show. I'm a big fan of all of your years of contributing to the public conversations as well. So thank you for joining us today. I have to just freeze frame on that moment from Donald Trump. If there are any protests, they're going to be met with force. He's now not just criminalizing speech that he doesn't like or auditing people who say things he doesn't like. He's now talking about using, quote, force against protests. Where are we right now?

[Gavin Newsom]

Big force, Nicole. Not just force, but big force against protesters who are exhibiting their First Amendment right. Where we are right now is just in a very challenging time. I'm anxious about it, truthfully. In fact, a little bit nervous about what may happen next. We've seen a lot of things this week, both in Los Angeles as well as in D.C. as they've arranged for what should have been a celebration of the army's 250th birthday has turned into citizens of the United States questioning why all of these things are going on. And that's really, to my view, sad and disgusting. It's because of one individual's attempt at a vanity play. And that's what we're seeing.

[Alicia Menendez]

Tell me what it's like to be inside the military if you're either in the National Guard and you're deployed against that governor's wishes or if you're one of the 700 Marines that have been.

[Gavin Newsom]

Mobilized well, you know, it's interesting that you asked that, Nicole. I didn't expect that question because that's what I've been thinking about and just seeing your conversation with Jacob Soborough on the streets of la, there's nothing that military folks like to do more than stand around in the hot sun in a mission that they really don't understand, worrying about £70 of gear. And as you looked across with Jacob wearing a T shirt, you saw a bunch of soldiers in full battle kit to include armor protection, gas masks, their weapons, helmets and, and shields. And those are the kind of things that I always used to look for as a military commander is how are the troops taking this mission, number one. Number two, then you look at how are the leaders taking this mission? How is you, if you're a lieutenant all the way up to a four star general like the commander of Northern Command, you're asking yourself, how do I ensure the soldiers that I'm leading, or in some cases the Marines I'm leading, understand what the mission is and how they're contributing to, to what they signed up to do? When we're looking, first of all, you're showing pictures of the Marines right now, but if you're looking at the California National Guard, these young soldiers have been involved in rescuing people from fires and from landslides. They've been deployed multiple times in the last couple years. They signed up to help their fellow citizens do the things that, that will make their lives better. And now they're involved in a mission that both the governor and the mayor of Los Angeles and by all all takes from the sights on the scene isn't all that important. They don't seem to be making a difference. And that's what soldiers want to do. And when you go back to those leaders, anywhere from the lieutenants to the four star generals, they have to coordinate and ensure their soldiers know what they're about to do. They have to tell them what the rules of engagements are, or what the National Guard calls the rough, the rules of use of force. They have to ensure that they know they're facing their fellow citizens and that they're protecting, in some cases federal buildings or contributing to the other agencies that are doing what they're supposed to be doing under the orders of the President. I would suggest that both the leaders of this force as well as the soldiers of this force want to do a good mission in any mission they're assigned. But I think right now there's a little bit of confusion about what the mission and the value of the Mission is for these soldiers and their leaders.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's interesting that you say that, because this mission was what former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Milley protected the men and women of the military from in Trump 1.0, where he wanted Stephen Miller. There's a scene in journalist Michael Bender's book where he describes in pretty vivid terms Stephen Miller wanting troops on the streets in the wake of the murder of George Floyd. And I think it's Mark Esper and General Milley who say, you know, that's an inappropriate use of active duty troops. There is no insurrection. What does it say to you about the lack of guardrails for the men and women of the military when obviously a conversation was had, we don't know where this time the Wall Street Journal suggests Stephen Miller was central to it and there was no one to protect the military's prerogatives from ending up in these numbers on the streets of LA against the wishes of that city's mayor and of that state's governor.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah, the guardrails are tenuous, to be sure. What you're talking about is the potential to very quickly escalate, either because of actions on the street between protesters and soldiers or protesters and ice, or even the fact that some people might call an insurrection, when there isn't any attempt at overthrowing a government, which is the definition of an insurrection. It's really just protesting what many citizens see as actions that they don't agree with. Now, sometimes that gets into the category of being dangerous or rough when you have mobs that are attacking buildings or spray painting things or burning cars, which has happened in Los Angeles, but really those are police actions to take care of until they get out of hand. And there's no indicator at all, none whatsoever, that any of those actions have gotten to the point where it's going to take a military force to quell the activity. That's the key. And it certainly hasn't gotten to the point of an insurrection. These are just citizens saying, we do not agree with the way this administration is exhibiting force, exhibiting a deterrent effort, and showing how they're taking citizens off the street, out of their houses, out of their schools, and arresting them without the rule of law as the backing. That's the problem. Many of the problems. The other thing I talk about in terms of the military that are on the scene, or either the National Guard or the Marines, I don't know the troop list, I don't know what kind of units they came from, but I certainly know the National Guard. That's standing in line. There are not military policemen and policewomen. I would suspect the Marines also are not forms as part of military police. So these individuals have had no training or little training in the use of how to arrest citizens or say you're under arrest, which would be illegal in the first place unless the insurrection act is called. But they just haven't been trained in the kinds of things that they may be asked to do. And that's going to be problematic because that could, that, that could spiral actions.

[Alicia Menendez]

Very quickly, I want to press you on what the military parade that Donald Trump is staging in Washington, D.C. means to the men and women of the military. And it's being held and convened for a man who said this about the men and women who died serving their country, quote, I don't understand what was in it for them and who is reported by the Atlantic to call men and women injured or killed serving their country, quote, suckers or losers. I'm going to ask you to stick around for a break. We'll have that conversation on the other side.

[Gavin Newsom]

Never been a big fan of goose stepping soldiers in big tanks and missiles.

[Alicia Menendez]

Rolling down the street. So if you ask me, I wouldn't.

[Gavin Newsom]

Have, I wouldn't have done it. I'm not sure what the actual expense of it is, but I'm not really.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, we were always different than.

[Gavin Newsom]

You know, the images you saw of.

[Nicole Wallace]

The Soviet Union and North Korea.

[Alicia Menendez]

We were proud not to be that.

[Nicole Wallace]

And I don't, I'm not proposing that that's the image people want to project, but I'm worried about the image that it isn't necessarily the best image to show.

[Alicia Menendez]

We're back with General Hertling Jermel. Is that the image that we're projecting to the world that we're no different than, let me quot the senator correctly, the Soviet Union and North Korea.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. Can I first state a caveat, Nicole? I'm not a big parade guy. I never have been ever since some traumatic experiences at West Point. But there are purposes for parades at times. I personally think parades are meant to celebrate people. I like it on the 4th of July when a fire truck rolls by and throws candy at the kids. Even a military parade is good if you're celebrating the soldiers. But what I don't personally agree with is the highlighting of equipment, power. That's something that I don't think is part of the culture of the military. The military has been asked to do it this year as part of the 250th anniversary of the birthday. So they will do a very good job. They've painted all of their vehicles as we saw as they moved into Washington, D.C. they will be on their best behavior and they will put on a very good show for the American people, period, for the American people to show them how proud they are of being soldiers and how proud they are of riding vehicles. But I don't think it's something we should sustain because it's not part of the U.S. army's culture. We don't do these kind of things. In fact, I once told during a change of command when I was a brigade commander, I told my wife that I felt a little bit weird having soldiers march in front of me in a pass and review, that I'd much rather put them up on the reviewing stand and march in front of them to show them that I was honoring those. Those are the kind of things we do in our military culture. So, yeah, the parade is going to be great. I'm sure this weekend there's going to be a history of the Army. There's going to be tanks and Bradleys and Paladins and helicopters flying overhead and representation of the all the various conflicts we fought in as an Army. But the equipment piece I personally believe is over the top.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's the commander in chief piece that I have a problem with. He's someone that news reports have confirmed refused to go to a military graveyard in Europe to honor soldiers who fought and died in World War I. He has called those who have died serving our country, quote, losers and suckers. According to Jeffrey Goldberg of the Atlantic, a good enough journalist to be on an inside chat with operational military plans shared by the current national Security Security Advisor. He's someone who several books have reported, didn't ever want to see men or women who'd been injured in service of their country. He said, quote, nobody wants to see that about amputees. So this is not someone who is on record as having much reverence for the men and women who have given their bodies and their lives in service of the country. That feels uncomfortable as well.

[Gavin Newsom]

Yeah. You know, and I've been to the Iron Marne battlefield cemetery in France, France, the place where President Trump did not go during his first year. It is inspiring. It is the place of Belleau Wood where Marines and 2nd Infantry Division from the army fought hand to hand against the Germans. It is just an emotional place to be. I can't understand how anyone would hesitate to go there or give up a chance to go there because it is very emotional. And truthfully, I'm going to show you something, Nicole, that I have on my desk. I have a box that says make it matter. And inside that box are the pictures of the 253 soldiers that I lost under my command in combat. And every day I open this box, pick one or two or three photos, remember where those. Or think about where those young 18 year olds who died at the time or 20 year olds, where they might be now is 36 years old because it was a long time ago when they were killed in action. And I think about them, offer a prayer for them, and try to honor them in my own way by making it matter, by making my actions matter on a daily basis. That's the kind of honor and celebration we should give to our soldiers.

[Alicia Menendez]

Let me see that box one more time.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's hard to lift it up because it's heavy not by the weight, but by the numbers of souls that rest inside. If you can see the pictures on each one of the faces and those are the individuals who had pictures taken before they went into combat and they made the ultimate sacrifice. That's what sustains me. And it also goes to that great scene from Saving Private Ryan where Tom Hanks pulls in Ryan and says, earn this. Earn what we've given to others. And that's the kind of honor we should be giving our soldiers as opposed to making them on the Army's 25050th birthday participate in something like that. You know, the army had a great plan for this. They've been working on it for a couple of years. It consisted of some static displays along the wall along the mall. Excuse me. Having soldiers walk among equipment, greeting people, telling them about what they do in the military and how they do it and really taking pride. Those things are cool. That's awesome. When you can get young 18 year olds tell you what they do. I'm not sure we're going to have the same effect. I'm sure it will be a great event. I'm sure it will be a powerful image. But I'd much rather celebrate the soldiers as opposed to awing at the equipment.

[Alicia Menendez]

I want to thank you for centering our coverage and our conversation around the memories and the honor and the service, the men and women in that box end of yours. Thank you very much for being part of this conversation. Please come back often.

[Gavin Newsom]

It's my pleasure. Thank you.

[Alicia Menendez]

Thank you. We're going to sneak in a quick break. We'll be right back. A big thank you from me to all of you for listening to our new podcast. The best people. I didn't know if anyone would listen, but you all have, and you've catapulted it to the top of the charts if you haven't listened yet. I got to talk to Kara Swisher about all things politics, tech, parenting, her uncanny ability to see right through some of the men with their hands on the levers of power, and what she saw early on about Donald Trump's ability to lull people into some sort of complacency. You can listen to that entire conversation with Kara Swisher wherever you get your podcast. You can also watch the whole thing if you'd rather on YouTube. Just scan the QR code on your screen or go to msnbc.com thebestpeople for today only, Alicia Menendez is gonna help me out and pick up the next hour of Deadline White House after a very short break. Don't go anywhere.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's conversation, it's perspective. It's the Weeknd on MSNBC with three.

[Charlie Sykes]

New dynamic hosts, Jonathan Capehart, Eugene Daniels and Jackie Alemany.

[Nicole Wallace]

And in the evening, it's the Weekend primetime with Eamon Moha?

[Charlie Sykes]

D, Katherine Rampel, Elise Jordan and Antonia Hilton join them as they offer analysis.

[Nicole Wallace]

On the week's most important events and set the agenda for the week ahead.

[Charlie Sykes]

The weekend at 7am eastern and the.

[Nicole Wallace]

Weekend prime time at 6pm eastern. Saturdays and Sundays on MSNBC.

[Jen Psaki]

When the administration started, he talked about violent criminals, drug dealers. How do you go from a drug dealer to chasing people through the parking lot of a Home Depot where there's day laborers working, just trying to survive? So this entire situation is what leaves us believing that we're being used as a test case. They didn't need to have the National Guard come here because we had a protest. There was violence that took place. It was around 120 people. We are a city of 3.8 million million. Our police department could take care of that.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Hi, everyone. I'm Alicia Menendez, in for Nicole Wallace, and it is 5 o' clock here in Washington, D.C. the city of Los Angeles had it covered, and protests have been getting steadily more muted as days go on. And yet additional national guard troops and U.S. marines ordered by Donald Trump have been authorized, and some are on their way to LA. NBC News has learned that those 700 newly deployed Marines could be used to provide security and transportation for ICE personnel as they continue to make arrests of immigrants. Meaning the raids that were the catalyst for the protests that began on Friday are continuing. The city of Santa Ana putting out a statement yesterday Quote, we are aware that U.S. immigration and Customs Enforcement ICE, is currently conducting immigration enforcement actions. We acknowledge that this news causes fear and uncertainty to many in our community. You heard LA Mayor Karen Bass tell our colleague Rachel Maddow in that clip we played at the top, she believes her city is being used as a test case by this administration trial to see what Trump can get away with, what the limits are. Because as Michelle Goldberg points out in a new op ed in the New York Times, for Trump, safeguarding the city was never the point. Her piece calls out how the deployment of these troops is a sign of an autocratic regime. The administration, after all, has every reason to want to intimidate those who might take part in civil disobedience. Violent protests play into its hands. Peaceful ones threaten the absurd narrative it's trying to bludgeon America into accepting. Just look at the lengths to which it's going to silence. David Huerta, the president of the Service Employees International Union of California. Last week, Huerta was arrested after sitting on a sidewalk blocking a gate while protesting an immigration raid at a work site in Los Angeles. While he was being detained, he was knocked to the ground, resulting in his hospitalization. On Monday, the Justice Department charged him with conspiracy to impede an officer, a felony that carries a maximum prison term of six years. Goldberg adds, it turns out the president didn't need to wait for a crisis to launch an authoritarian crackdown. Instead, he can simply invent one. And that is where we start this hour with NBC News correspondent David Noriega in Los Angeles. Also with us, former acting assistant attorney General for National Security at the Justice Department. Now, an MSNBC legal analyst, Mary McCord, and president of Media Matters for America, Angela Corazon is here as well. David, you have been on the streets in LA these past few days. What are you seeing today? How does it compare to what you saw over the weekend?

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, Alicia, here, where I am now, directly outside the federal building that has been the target of these protests for the last five days. Things were quite calm until literally about two minutes before you came on the air. At which point here I want to show you behind me. What you see here is a combination of California National Guard and the guys in blue, and some of the guys in the back in camo are special response teams. So tactical units from different federal law enforcement agencies. As you can see, they are all now wearing gas masks. They just put those on in the last five minutes or so. It's usually a sign that things are about to get fairly serious. They started pushing people Here, Alan, if you could just show her. This is all in response to this, frankly, quite small and up until this point, 100% peaceful gathering of people in front of the federal building. Just a few minutes ago, they deployed flashbang grenades up into the air over the crowd. And I want to show you one last thing to explain to you a little bit, kind of how these things have been working the last few days. You follow me onto the street. So right now, we're directly in front of federal property, right? This is the federal building. It's the Metropolitan Detention center, where people who get detained by ICE are often taken before they get sent to Adelanto and other ICE processing facilities. This here is the crowd of protesters that that is. I just want to make sure you see it. It's a pretty small crowd. We're talking about probably less than 100 people. Some of them dispersed after the flashbang grenades. But then I want you to see down at the end of the block, in the other direction, is the beginnings of a formation of LAPD officers at the end of the block who are posted up actually on both ends of this block. This is Alameda between Commercial street and Temple. They're on Temple and they're on Commercial. And what I'm assuming, based on the way things have gone the last couple of days, is that these LAPD officers are going to start moving in towards the center of the block to disperse this crowd. The thing I want to impress upon you, Alicia, is that this is, again, a very small, very peaceful group of protesters that is being responded to quite aggressively by law enforcement, both on the federal side and on the local police side. That is what we saw yesterday. And what's clearly happening is that especially local law enforcement, lapd, sheriffs from all over Southern California, California Highway Patrol, are doing everything that they can, throwing everything that they can at these protests to try and prevent them from gaining steam in the first place. Right. So they are responding with a tremendous amount of force, A tremendous amount of officers, in most cases, far outnumbering protesters, basically trying to nip all of this in the bud. Again, it's been a calm day up until literally about five minutes ago. The thing that has made it go from being a calm day to a knock calm day are the responses so far, the responses of law enforcement. Alicia.

[Elizabeth Finds]

David, understanding that the dynamics have just changed in the last few minutes. What were you hearing from protesters prior to the arrival of this increased law enforcement?

[Charlie Sykes]

Look, Alicia, whenever I talk to protesters here, they remind me that they are here in the first place because of the widespread ICE enforcement actions that have been taking place in LA over the last five days to a week. Right. That is the thing that set off this unrest. It's what's catalyzed people to come out on the street. They are also responding to the National Guard troop deployments, to the Marine troop deployments. But in some ways, those things are actually secondary. The people that I've spoken to, I. So I've made an effort to talk specifically to people that I can see are carrying Mexican flags or flags of other Latin American countries, people who are visibly Latino, and most of them are people who grew up in LA or came here as children. Earlier today, actually, I spoke to a small group of young dental assistants who came out to this protest. They're gone now. They're the sorts of people who I think tend to kind of leave when things get a little bit hairy. And I was asking them why they're here. They said that they're scared of the way that ICE is seemingly indiscriminately going to people, workplaces, picking up people. Some of them told me they have undocumented family members, but they're not only worried about their family members, they're starting to become worried also about themselves. Take a listen to what one of these young protesters told me, Alicia.

[Alicia Menendez]

As we've seen, they've grabbed. They've just snatched up people who are actually citizens.

[Elizabeth Finds]

They could.

[Alicia Menendez]

What stops them from coming up here and snatching me up? You know, it's just same thing to protect the people that can't.

[Elizabeth Finds]

It's really unfortunate.

[Jen Psaki]

Called for.

[Alicia Menendez]

It's just not about having. Not having as many immigrants here. But at this point, it's a racism thing. It's racist.

[Charlie Sykes]

Alicia. The important thing that I'm going to be paying attention to over the next few days is whether, in fact, as some of our colleagues have reported, the Marines that are being deployed to Los Angeles are going to start going out with ICE agents, ICE officers into the field to conduct these enforcement operations. From what I've heard from lawyers representing people who've been picked up in these raids, who, by the way, have been having a hard time accessing people in these detention centers, even though they have a right to counsel. So there are due process issues being raised by this as well. From what I've heard is that a lot of these are people who've been living in the United States for decades. Have US citizen children were picked up at their places of employment, you know, not people who were targeted because they have criminal records or criminal histories. If that continues to happen again, that is what set off this unrest. And if that continues to happen, especially in a way that is visibly militarized with the presence of Marines, this could not be the end of the unrest that we've seen in the last few days. As I thought it might be between yesterday and today because of the way things were trending, but we might actually be looking at the beginning of something bigger.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Alicia, Angela, what are these images meant to convey?

[Nicole Wallace]

So a lot of this is theater right now, right? And because power perceived as power achieved, and they're intended to convey two things and they're speaking to a few audiences, they're speaking to their right wing base, which is to say we are following through with the things that we said we were going to do. This is our escalation point. And this is something that Steve Bannon, who's been on the circuit for the past month, has been out there in right wing media circles saying, hey, calm down everybody. We know those numbers aren't high enough, but we're going to get there. As the summer ramps up, they were getting the infrastructure and the plans and the operations in place so that they could begin this massive escalation.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So as far as that audience is.

[Nicole Wallace]

Concerned, this is a part of that escalation. And it's to not only say, we're doing the thing we said we were going to do, but to also validate a narrative that look, what happens when we try to enforce the law, when we go after criminals, Democrats and all these liberal cities, they react in a way that is hostile, aggressive. They burn cars.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Right?

[Nicole Wallace]

That's why these targets matter. I think the mayor was right when she said there was a little bit of a test case here. California and Texas have about the similar number of undocumented people, and yet somehow these actions seem to disproportionately be placed in Democratic run places. And that's not an accident. The second, though is to say we can do it. That's the second thing is fear. Because a big undercurrent of this is, and this is part of the larger Project 2025 agenda is to weaponize the DOJ, to go after media, to eliminate independence of agencies. But one of the other prongs of it, one of the key components, people Forget why Project 2025 wanted to invoke the Insurrection Act. It wasn't to evoke the Insurrection act for the Insurrection Act's sake. Actually, the intention within the plan is very clear.

[Elizabeth Finds]

It says, we're going to do this to stifle dissent.

[Nicole Wallace]

And that's what the second thing and the second part about this is demonstrated to do is to stifle dissent one way or the other. If they don't invoke the Insurrection Act. You get what the reporter was just explaining at the beginning, that local law enforcement feels this sideways pressure to take extra actions, even against otherwise lawful and peaceful demonstrations, to effectively stifle dissent for no other reason than to prevent a worse thing from happening, which is to give these Trump and the military and the National Guard reason to escalate and intensify. And then the third is to sort of put a little bit of catnip out there and say, hey, maybe some people will take the bait and they will escalate this. And that's the big thing. They are telling multiple stories as part of this larger narrative to a few different audiences because this is the point in the pivot where things start to really ramp up.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Mayor, I want to pick up on Angela's point about the Insurrection Act. You had Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth on Capitol Hill today defending the president's actions in Los Angeles, defending how much it is to be going to cost the American taxpayer. And then you had Trump himself doubling down. Not an accident, Mary, that he is referring to these protesters as insurrectionists. Talk us through the definition of insurrection. And then as Angela alluded to the dangers of a president applying that term to dissent. Sure. Well, just to start with this talking about this being worth it to the taxpayer, I hope everyone listening and everyone in the country realizes, is that when the federal government federalizes National Guard, that's.

[Jen Psaki]

The taxpayers paying for them.

[Elizabeth Finds]

That's not the states paying for them. Once they're federalized, they are part of our active duty military and they're being paid for out of the US fisc and of course, the mobilization of 700 marines, also paid for by the taxpayers. So we now have a force out there that, well, outnumbers the number of protesters I've seen in any given spot around Los Angeles. But the the use of the terminology insurrectionist that seem purposeful as people as you know, the president did not invoke the Insurrection act on Saturday night. He used a different provision of law that is has never been used on its own alone like this before. And that does not authorize the military or federalized National Guard to engage in domestic law enforcement. Search, seizure, arrest, detention. The Insurrection act is an exception to the Posse Comitatus act that otherwise prevents military and federalized National Guard from engaging in that type of classic police Law enforcement behavior. I mean, I realize that people listening may see, say, well, if I see, you know, Marines and federalized National Guard on the street with guns guarding federal property, that feels like domestic law enforcement to me. But the interpretation of the Posse Comitatus act that limits and prevents engaging in classic law enforcement reads the classic law enforcement narrowly to be, like I said, search, seizure, arrest, detention, and says that protection of federal property, federal employees and federal functions is actually not. That's protective. That's under the president's authority under the Constitution to have active duty military doing that. And under the provision of law that he used, he can use the National Guard for that. Use of the term insurrectionists, though, does some sense of seem to be some sort of buildup to make it more palatable, for example, to kind of get the public used to hearing that terminology and associate it with what's going on in California and potentially other places so that he will feel like maybe he's got some support or some comfort among the public with actually invoking the Insurrection Act. And to the bait point, I mean, the bait point is a really good point because you will have agitators by the. Every day that this goes on and where it seems like it's being escalated, actually by the presence of the military, which are not needed there for such small crowds that, that, you know, could very well provoke more protests. And there should be First Amendment protests, but there will often be some agitators within those protests, and those are the people who will sometimes throw rocks at law enforcement or potentially even at the military or light cars on fire. And that's just like fodder for the President to say, oh, now we have an insurrection. And once that happens, then you do actually have an open, lawful use of the military to engage in that classic domestic law enforcement. Search, seizure, arrest, detention. Now, I think there'd be challenges to the invocation of the Insurrection act, but, you know, it would take those kind of legal challenges. David Noriega, I'm not sure if we still have you, but I would like to go back to you to see both what is happening on the ground where you are in Los Angeles and return to something you were saying earlier about the fact that a lot of these immigration attorneys that you've spoken with, that I've spoken with, say they have not been able to access their clients. There is reporting that some of these folks who've been detained have already been deported. You're sending of where this is headed.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah, Alicia, this is huge. Just to remind people of some of the Context here. One of the more, I would say, unprecedented actions that the Trump administration has taken when it comes to immigration is deporting people under the Alien Enemies act to a mega prison in El Salvador with no due process, where they have been completely incommunicado for over two months. At this point, close to three months. So take that. You know, that is something that happened in recent weeks. Now, what's happening as a result of the raids that have been happening in Southern California just in the last week is something that similarly raises serious due process alarms among the people whose job it is to represent people in immigration court. So I've been in touch with people from the Immigrant Defenders Legal Center, It's a big law firm here in LA that is the largest pro bono legal services provider for people facing removal and immigration court. Now, they've told me that they've heard of many hundreds of cases of people who've been detained in these ICE raids over the last week. Several of them have reached out to them, several dozen of them have reached out to them, actually looking for representation. They've repeatedly sent lawyers to the Adelanto ICE Processing center where these people are being held. And in three days of driving out to the desert trying to meet with potential clients, they've been able to meet with exactly four people out of the several dozen who have been detained. Of those people, what they've told me is that they are people, like I said before, who've lived in the United States for several decades, have US Citizen children, don't have criminal records or meaningful criminal records. Look, when we talk about why this is happening, right. I think it's easy to focus, and rightfully so, on the unrest, on the law enforcement action, on the deployment of the Marines and the National Guard. These things are historic and important. But the thing that is underlying all of this is the reaction of this community in Los Angeles, where undocumented people are deeply and profoundly embedded in the community, to what they perceive as indiscriminate attacks on their community by going to workplaces like the garment factory not far from here in the garment district, where many of these people were picked up. By the way you mentioned, I can confirm at least one case of a person who was already deported to Mexico, even though this raid happened a matter of days ago. Now, unless that person already had a final order of removal, which is possible, then that also raises, you know, significant due process concerns. This is the backdrop to what's happening. And I think it's important to understand why, Alicia, this. Why exactly this sort of exploded in the way that it did.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Alicia, David Noriega for us in Los Angeles. Mary McCord, Angela Corazon, thank you all so much for starting us off. When we return, California asks a court to block Donald Trump from deploying the military in California against the wishes of the state's governor. We just heard from the judge. We're going to get reaction from California's AG next. Plus, our colleague Jacob Sobra is going to join us for a live interview with Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass. And later in the hour, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy has removed all 17 members of a critical CDC advisory panel on vaccines. He says the move restores public trust. Public health officials are calling it a reckless disaster. And at least one Republican senator, a physician by training, is sounding the alarm. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us. California Governor Gavin Newsom asked a federal judge this afternoon to block Donald Trump's deployment of Marines and thousands of National Guard troops in la. Governor Newsom's request reads this quote, these unlawful deployments have already proven to be a deeply inflammatory and unnecessary provocation, anathema to our laws limiting the use of federal forces for law enforcement rather than a means of restoring calm. Federal antagonization through the presence of soldiers in the streets has already caused real and irreparable damage to the city of Los Angeles. The people who live there in the state of California, they must be stopped immediately. The Justice Department argues California's requests would jeopardize safety of dhs. That just in the last hour, the judge declined the request for immediate relief, but did set a Thursday hearing. Joining us now, California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Attorney General, what do you expect from this hearing on Thursday?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, the federal government has requested an opportunity to provide their response to what we have filed. And we'll have a judge who will listen to both sides and do it. Judges and courts do review the facts, apply the law and come to a decision. We think that that decision will be in our favor, that a restraining order will be issued and the presidential action deploying the National Guard to LA will be rendered invalid and declared invalid, as will the use of the Marines in neighborhoods and communities, the use of military involved in civilian law enforcement on American soil in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act. So that's what we've asked for. We think the law and the facts are strongly in our favor and we'll see what the court does on Thursday.

[Elizabeth Finds]

So just walk us through this because this motion is much more specific than your lawsuit that you filed yesterday. What actions specifically are you seeking to prohibit with this order? You talked about the use of Marines and ICE enforcement, violence, else.

[Nicole Wallace]

So we filed the case yesterday and we argued in that filing that the executive order issued by the President pursuant to a statute that he cited to is unlawful. 10 USC 12 406. He has been engaged in an unlawful power grab. He is trying to exercise power he does not have. The Governor is the Commander in Chief of the California National Guard unless there's a specific statutory authority for the President. And so we argue that there no such statutory authority exists. The statute on which the President relies does not give him the authority he thinks it gives him. And then today we filed what's called a temporary restraining order. It's an order that will request, that asks for an order to occur quickly. And that order will be short in duration by definition. The court will look at whether they think we will win or the federal government will win on the merits. They'll also look at whether if the current status quo continues, the State of California will be harmed irreversibly or irreparably. So we're asking for the court to take action to order that the executive order is invalid and restrain the National Guard from participating in actions that they can't lawfully participate in, same with the Marines and to return them to their proper command doing only things they are lawfully able to do.

[Elizabeth Finds]

General Banta, can you just describe the fear that this creates in communities to have Marines potentially involved in immigration activity?

[Nicole Wallace]

Absolutely. The presence of the military, armed and uniformed on civilian streets on American soil is something that, as our filing says, is anathema completely against everything about who we are. We created the United States of America after a tyrant and a monarch abused his power and quartered soldiers in civilians homes. And we said that should never happen again and only civilian law enforcement, police, sheriffs, should participate in law enforcement on American soil. And so we have a situation that was completely preventable, avoidable. The presence of the National Guard and the Marines in LA is unnecessary and counterproductive. It only serves to inflame and provoke and it creates a confrontation situation and escalates the tension and puts public safety at risk. Instead of enhancing public safety, there is great fear, great anxiety on the ground that existed previous to the President unnecessarily deploying the National Guard and mobilizing the Marines to Los Angeles. So it's only got worse. It is by the President's creation. It is a manufactured crisis and artificial controversy. It is chaos and confusion, fear and anxiety that the President has created, and that was completely avoidable.

[Elizabeth Finds]

General Banta, before we go, I want you to take a listen to what the president had to say about potentially invoking the Insurrection Act.

[Jen Psaki]

If there's an insurrection, I would certainly invoke it. We'll see. But I can tell you less. Last night was terrible. Well, you take a look at what's happening. I mean, I could tell you there were certain areas of that, of Los Angeles that you could have called it an insurrection. It was terrible. But these are paid insurrectionists.

[Gavin Newsom]

These are paid troublemakers.

[Jen Psaki]

They get money.

[Elizabeth Finds]

General Banta, your response?

[Nicole Wallace]

The president has said, I am not a lawyer. And that is painfully clear. Unfortunately, these are terms that actually have definitions. The law and courts have given them definitions. There is a definition for rebellion, for invasion, for insurrection. It's not just something you can throw about so casually and apply to a situation where it's completely inapplicable. So the president has a way of doing that. He calls things emergencies that are not emergencies, things invasions that are not invasions, and things insurrections that are not insurrections, even though there was an insurrection and he refused to call the National Guard on January 6th. So just because the president says gives a name or a term to something doesn't mean that's actually what it is. The facts matter, and the facts are important. So this is a president that's had a very difficult and complicated relationship with the law and with the facts. But the law and the facts do matter, and courts are places where it will play out. There is no insurrection. There is no rebellion. There is no invasion. There is no lawful reason for the president to have mobilized the Marines or deployed the National Guard to Los Angeles. We're making that case in court, and we believe we'll win.

[Elizabeth Finds]

California Attorney General Rob Bonta, thank you so much for joining us. When we return, our colleague Jacob Sobroff is going to rejoin our coverage. He'll be joined by Los Angeles Mayor Karen Bass about what is really happening on the streets of her city. Donald Trump today doubling down on his defense of sending 700 Marines and thousands of National Guard troops into Los Angeles against the wishes of the governor and Los Angeles mayor Karen Bass. NBC's Jacob Sobroff is back with us, and he is joined by Mayor Bass.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Alicia, thanks so much. I'm here outside the city's Emergency Operations center with Mayor Bass. Mayor Bass, good to see you. Thank you for joining us live on msnbc. Let me start with the curfew you mentioned, mentioned earlier today in a press availability that you were considering Putting into place a curfew tonight in Los Angeles. Will there be a curfew tonight in Los Angeles?

[Jen Psaki]

I believe there will. We are working on the details right now. And so I think in the next one or two hours, we'll be able to announce whether we're going to do it.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Would it be a citywide curfew?

[Jen Psaki]

No, no, no, no, no. I think it's so important for people to understand that this is not a citywide issue. This is a few blocks within downtown. I don't want to underplay it, it's significant, but it is not our entire city.

[Jacob Soboroff]

We're just a couple of blocks away right now. You mentioned it's just a few blocks. We're a couple blocks away from the Metropolitan Detention center here at the eoc. I'm sure our viewers can hear the chopper that's circling above us right now. There have also been. I've seen federal government choppers from Customs and Border Protection flying around this area. How would you characterize, Mayor, what's going on down here? The President says it's an insurrection. What do you call it?

[Jen Psaki]

I mean, it's not an insurrection at all. What you have are a few people. Again, they have done extensive vandalism in the form of graffiti. And last night several stores were broken into, which is why we're looking at a curfew, declaring it an unlawful assembly earlier than normal. There's protests happening right now. And so at the end of a protest, you have a few people who are straggling and they go out and they create mayhem. That is what the situation is. This is not an insurrection. This is not citywide civil unrest. He deployed 100 National Guard soldiers here. They are basically guarding a building. So I don't know what in the world, 2000 National Guard and 700 Marines would be doing in LA.

[Jacob Soboroff]

You mentioned the Marines. Let me ask you about the Marines. Are you concerned. Concerned with the scope of the Marine Corps mission Once those Marine Corps members make it here to la. These, as you said, the National Guard troops are guarding the Federal Building. The Marine Corps. It's unclear, but our reporting indicates that they may do more than that.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, right, and that's the issue. It's unclear. We don't know what they're doing from one day to the next. For example, we were told that the raids are going to go on for another 28 days. Is that going to be the case? Where are they going to take place? We have to wake up in the morning and find out which businesses, which.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Workplaces were rating do you believe that the Los Angeles Police Department, with the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, can handle what's happening on the streets of LA without the National Guard?

[Jen Psaki]

100%, I believe that. You know, ironically, on Saturday night, the President came out and said that the National Guard is the reason why the protesters were quelled and the vandalism was stopped. So he went on to congratulate the National Guard, Jacob. They weren't even here. They weren't even deployed until Sunday. So as far as I'm concerned, I think this is unfortunate. This is a stunt. It makes me feel like L. A might be a grand experiment to see what would the response of the public be if the federal government came in and took over.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I heard you say that, Mayor bass, last night, Dr. Rachel, on our ear, what do you mean by that? What is the next logical extension of the federal troops on the streets of Los Angeles or another American city? What do you think he's testing?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I think he's testing what the public response would be. For example, creating the imagery or saying that there is an insurrection happening here, that the city is out of control. When anybody in LA knows that's not the case, you can go all around LA and the majority of people have not seen anything except for what they've seen on tv. So I will tell you, on Thursday, the day before the raids, there was nothing going on in this city.

[Jacob Soboroff]

It was peaceful in Los Angeles.

[Jen Psaki]

Yeah, exactly. And there was nothing that warranted the actions of the next day.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Chief McDonnell, the chief of the LAPD, seemed to indicate the other day that he might be open to the National Guard's presence here. But that's not what I hear you saying at all. Is there dangerous daylight between you and the chief on that issue?

[Jen Psaki]

No, there is no daylight between the two of us. But what he was, what he was meaning, too, was if he needs additional support, Los Angeles county has 88 cities in it and a sheriff's department, and many of those cities have police departments, and he can call from. For help from around the region.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Tom Holman told me when I spoke to him in our interview on Saturday night that there would be I enforcement operations happening in Los Angeles every day. You have evidence of that, that that's happened since the beginning of this race on Friday?

[Jen Psaki]

I think that is accurate. However, we have not heard about one today. But what that does is, is that it creates a feeling, a sense of fear through the whole city, because, as you know, this is a city of immigrants and there are certain industries that, frankly, if you deported everybody. Those industries would not even function. It would be a terrible blow on our economy.

[Jacob Soboroff]

I'm sorry, let me ask you about Tom Holman as well, what he said about, about you. I mean, I know that you saw that, that he told me that if you want to go cross the line and he believed that you had not yet he would be willing to place you under arrest or refer you to the Department of Justice for arrest, just like I said to Governor Newsom. What's your response?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, my response is, is that that statement is not dignified and doesn't represent the office that he holds. And frankly, I think he should be embarrassed by making a statement.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Do you, have you talked with your security detail? Have you made preparations for potential arrests by the federal government?

[Jen Psaki]

Absolutely not. Because it's not going to happen.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Not going to happen. This all started with enforcement operations on Friday morning at places like Home Depots or as you said, in the garment district, in the fashion district district right around the corner here in downtown Los Angeles. As the mayor of the city, understanding who those people are, the day laborers, the workers, what does that mean to you that they targeted those locations?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, let me just contrast it to what we said was going to happen, what he said was going to happen, which is gang members, drug dealers, violent criminals, that's who they were going to target. How does that jive with Home Depot workers having to run through the parking lot to escapist? These are people who show up for work every day and basically get work day by day by day to survive our city that is very, very expensive to live in in the factory down the street. Actually it's an interesting story because it's a Korean owned business and the employees were Latino and they came in and they raided that facility. What violent criminals were they looking for? When the family members heard that their relatives were being detained, you had children and parents coming and some of those children saw their mothers and fathers being carted out. We've also heard about people who are legal immigrants who show up for their once a year appointment at the immigration office at the ice, check ins and they're being detained. So it creates a sense of fear, terror and unsettling settlement to our city.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Have you had any communication with the President or Susan Miles, the chief of Staff?

[Jen Psaki]

Yes, yes.

[Jacob Soboroff]

What are they telling you?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I was talking to them encouraging the troops not to come. So that was before the national.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So you haven't talked to them since.

[Jen Psaki]

They said I have not. However, I'm preparing to make a request to talk specifically with the governor, with the president.

[Jacob Soboroff]

So you're going to make a request to talk to the president?

[Jen Psaki]

I am going to make a request.

[Jacob Soboroff]

To talk to, and I'm going to throw it back to Alicia in a second because I know she's got some questions for you as well. But before I do, when you spoke to Tom Holman the same day that I did, did he say any of the stuff that he said to me to you?

[Jen Psaki]

Absolutely not. He actually thanked me for my message that said that we would not tolerate violence. We had a comfortable conversation. I encouraged him not to deploy troops here. I told him that if he did, it would be a provocation, and we didn't need to have that. Our city is trying to prepare for the World cup now. They're going to spend $130 million bringing out troops unnecessarily. I would love that money to come to LA so we could prepare for the games in a year.

[Jacob Soboroff]

My understanding is, Mayor, that ICE was spotted, and correct me if I'm wrong, outside your grandchild's school.

[Jen Psaki]

Yes.

[Jacob Soboroff]

What did that feel like to you? Tell me that story.

[Jen Psaki]

Well, it, it was frightening to me because all of the parents that were getting ready to arrive to pick up their kids, should they go, are they going to possibly be detained? I heard they did go and detain a couple of street vendors. Street vendors.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Lisa, let me get, I want to get you in here because I have a couple of questions for the mayor. Mayor Alicia Menendez.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Hello, Mayor, just one quick question for you. The fact that these ICE raids are happening at workplaces, at Home Depots, at car washes, at, at garment factories, you are going to need allies in this fight. What is your message to business leaders? What role do you see for the business community in Los Angeles as it pertains to protecting your workforce?

[Jen Psaki]

Well, I do think that business community that employs immigrant workers needs to make sure that they are well informed about their rights, that they have contacts and relationships that they can rely on for legal counsel. I will tell you, though, however, the people that are detained right now have been denied legal counsel. They've been denied access to their families. But I do think that the workforce needs to be very well educated. Now, in regards to downtown, I've spoken to business leaders today, and we are going to be all coming together to figure out how to repair and restore the vandalists that took place here in the downtown area.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Mayor Karen Bass so much, and I.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Just want to say about the work that, yeah, I just want to say about the work that the Mayor is doing here? You know, LA city sees a lot of big events. Lakers parade, Dodgers parade, you know, unrest of other kinds. Usually when the National Guard is called into this city, it's a request made by you or by the governor of this state. This is a unique set of circumstances here. So I'm grateful to the mayor for joining us today and talking to us about what's going on. So thank you. Mayor thank you.

[Jen Psaki]

Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

[Jacob Soboroff]

Alicia thanks for doing this.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Mayor thank you. Jacob Sobra, thank you. Switching gears for us to a story that affects virtually everyone in this country. What is next after Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Removed the entire CDC board advises the government on vaccines. That story directly. Donald Trump's health secretary, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. Has announced he fired all 17 members of the CDC's independent vaccine advisory committee, gutting this panel, which RFK Jr. Could now potentially fill with vaccine skeptics like himself. It is an unprecedented move targeting the heart of Americans trust in vaccines and their ability to access, access and afford them. Joining us now, global health policy expert and MSNBC medical contributor, Dr. Vin Gupta. Dr. Gupta, what could possibly go wrong?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, Alicia, great to see you. The big concern here is that for decades, precedence has been the case whether it's a Democrat or a Republican in the White House. And to be very clear to your audience that regardless of what parties in power, acip, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, would be independent of interference. It was not filled with political appointees. These are experts in their fields and that their word mattered to insurance companies. So critically, commercial insurers across the spectrum. And this matters for anybody with employment, anybody potentially, you know, a beneficiary of a loved one who's employed these commercial insurers. Alicia, listen to what ACIP says and covers. What ACIP tells them to cover is recommended, for example, from a vaccine scheduling standpoint. So we know what's going to happen with ACEP 2.0. So it's going to be filled with a bunch of yes. People that are not willing to be in any way benchmarks or in any way to hold to account what Macri and Kennedy are going to put out there. And so the worry here is that people are going to lose access to covered vaccines and potentially even other interventions and therapeutics.

[Elizabeth Finds]

So if people lose access, what happens then?

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, unfortunately, that means people end up in the hospital. Preventable illness is a thing. And so higher rates of flu. I worry about what they're going to do with COVID and flu boosters Are they going to be restricting it to people that are, say, 65 years of age and older and maybe those under two leaving at risk a wide part of the population? So myself as an ICU doc, preventable illnesses are a thing. We're seeing a rise in preventable illnesses and hospitalizations. And, Alicia, it's not hard to see where this is headed. We're going to see more of that, especially if this. There's nothing we can do to avoid it. The question here is, will insurance companies step up, up, be independent and make their own decisions? And that's our really only hope here. Pretty extraordinary.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Dr. I only got about 30 seconds left, but you have RFK Jr saying that this is about restoring confidence among the American public in vaccines. It would seem to me that it has the possibility of doing quite the opposite.

[Nicole Wallace]

You know, I mean, name outside of the white coat doctors surrounding Kennedy, name a doctor to me. You know, 99% of doctors and medical providers are not aligned with what he's doing. And he should be most accountable. The patients and then providers across the country, that's not what they're doing. There's outrage in the medical community across the spectrum at what he is doing right now. And they're going to pay the price at some point. I mean, there is going to be blowback, and it's already happening.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Dr. Vin Gupta, thank you as always. We're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back. Last night at the BET Awards in Los Angeles, rapper Doshi used her acceptance speech for Best Female Hip Hop Artist to deliver a powerful message to on the Trump administration's action in the city. Take a listen. There are ruthless attacks that are creating fear and chaos in our communities in the name of law and order. Trump is using military forces to stop a protest.

[Jen Psaki]

And I want y' all to consider.

[Elizabeth Finds]

What kind of government it appears to be when every time we exercise our democratic right to protest, the military is deployed against us. What type of government is that? People are being swept up and torn from their families. And I feel it's my responsibility as an artist to use this moment to speak up for all oppressed people, for black people, for Latino people, for trans people, for the people in Gaza. We all deserve to live in hope and not in fear. And I hope we stand together, my brothers and my sisters, against hate and.

[Jen Psaki]

We protest against it.

[Elizabeth Finds]

Thank you, bet. Dochi was the only person to directly reference the images unfolding across the city. We're going to sneak in another break. We'll be right back. Thank you for spending part of your Tuesday with us. I'll see you back here at 7pm Eastern.