"Vance in the hot seat for how bad this deal truly is"

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House – "Vance in the hot seat for how bad this deal truly is"

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MSNBC NOW)
Air Date: June 19, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the political turmoil surrounding Vice President J.D. Vance as he becomes the focal point for criticism over the Trump administration’s controversial Iran deal. Nicolle Wallace and her guests—Congresswoman Madeline Dean, Princeton professor Eddie Glaude, political analyst Charlie Sykes, and journalist Michelle Norris—explore the policy’s implications, the intra-party blame game, Trump’s leadership style, and the broader effects on both U.S. foreign relations and democracy itself. The hour provides insight into Washington’s dysfunction, a behind-the-scenes look at Trump’s relationships with allies and adversaries, and thoughtful reflections inspired by the opening of the Obama Presidential Center on Juneteenth.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Trump-Vance Iran Deal Fallout

[01:07–14:32]

• Vance as Scapegoat:
  J.D. Vance, Trump’s Vice President, is under fire for the deeply unpopular U.S.-Iran peace deal. Even prominent MAGA supporters and Trump himself are preparing to blame Vance if the agreement backfires.

  • “If it works out, I'm going to take the credit. If it doesn't work out, I'm blaming J.D.” – Charlie Sykes mimicking Trump ([02:06])

• Deal’s Shortcomings:
  The Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), negotiated by Vance, is criticized as vague and poorly constructed, with questions about oversight on a $300 billion fund and the wisdom of the deal itself.

• Trump’s Manipulation of Allies:
  New reporting (from the upcoming book Regime Change by Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan) reveals Trump’s discontent with Vance’s messaging and hints at his preference for Marco Rubio as a successor.

  • “Obliterated. Obliterated. That's the word. Everyone just needs to copy what I say. Obliterated.” – Trump via anecdote ([03:36])

• Political Dynamics:
  The story is cast as a spectacle of internal blame and rivalry, with Vance isolated and Rubio aloof.

• Madeline Dean’s Take:
  Dean calls out “the smallness of the people in this White House,” highlighting Vance’s shift from vocal antiwar advocate to “sycophant, shill and vice president” defending an indefensible agreement ([05:34]).

  Quote:
  “Here he is stuck in a terrible, unenviable position... defending a 14 point MOU that... this is amateur time writing of this MoU for something so gravely serious. So it's very, very small is what we see about something so very, very large and important to our national security.” – Rep. Madeline Dean ([05:34])

• Losses and Stakes:
  Dean and Wallace underscore the war’s toll—American, Iranian, Lebanese, and Israeli deaths—and the lack of meaningful achievement.

  Quote:
  “What was this all for? This is so silly. The memorandum of understanding is a memorandum to reopen the straits... Iran actually wrote this to their benefit. $300 billion with no oversight and no transparency... Come on. This country is far better than this.” – Rep. Madeline Dean ([07:52])

• Vance’s Isolation:
  Observers note Marco Rubio’s meaningful absence from the deal’s promotion and Vance’s difficult position as designated fall guy.

2. Trump’s Leadership Patterns and International Fallout

[14:32–27:51]

• Trump’s Self-Image:
  A new book excerpt reveals Trump’s fascination with historical autocrats, measuring himself against figures like Genghis Khan, Napoleon, Hitler, and Mao.

  Quote:
  “He began reading... reciting the names of some of history's most powerful figures, explaining how each fell short of his own power as US President... Alexander the Great... Hitler, Mao, Stalin, these leaders maintained power through fear. He said, this is who he is talking about. Seeing himself in league with.” – Nicolle Wallace, referencing book excerpt ([15:17])

• Pattern of Denigrating Allies:
  The episode pivots to a brewing international incident with Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni after Trump falsely claimed she begged for a photo with him, leading to a diplomatic standoff.

  Quote:
  “I in Italy never beg. I am frankly shocked. I don't know why the President of the United States behaves this way toward his own allies... he instead proves much more indulgent [to adversaries].” – Giorgia Meloni, as reported by Wallace ([22:29])

• Trump’s Need for Admiration:
  Sykes and others psychoanalyze Trump’s relentless need to be desired, highlighting his obsession with status, rejection bitterness, and inability to accept aging and unpopularity.

  Quote:
  “He still thinks he's some sex symbol... She wanted to take a picture a photo with me so bad because I am that guy. Still no, you're an 80 year old hamburger eaten man who barely seems to be able to walk a straight line and he can't accept the fact that that's who he is.” – Charlie Sykes ([26:41])

3. The Obama Presidential Center & Reflections on American Democracy

[30:36–43:13]

• Opening of the Center on Juneteenth:
  Michelle Norris previews her exclusive interviews with Barack and Michelle Obama for the opening of the Obama Center, connecting this milestone to themes of race, history, and hope.

  Quote:
  “I want them to see a loving representation of a black couple... excellence comes in all shapes, sizes and colors, genders... The co-equanimity of our relationship I think is important to remember... That there are many people who are great leaders. And your race, your income is the least of what makes you great.” – Michelle Obama ([32:00])

• The Importance of Honest Storytelling:
  Eddie Glaude, referencing his new book, insists that anniversaries can be used either to paper over America’s painful truths or to honestly reckon with its “divided soul.”

  Quote:
  “Not all of what is celebrated has to be true. American anniversaries are often moments to turn a blind eye to the evils of the past... Some people who believe that America must always remain a white republic, and those who are trying to grapple with the complexity of our journey to now... in our 250th year, Nicole, we have to deal with the ghosts that have us by the nape of the neck and we have to deal with it honestly.” – Eddie Glaude ([38:23], [39:19])

• Sustaining Hope and Civic Engagement:
  The center’s mission is to inspire action and civic responsibility, with Obama urging Americans to move beyond nostalgia for his presidency and, instead, roll up their sleeves for the present.

  Quote:
  “Stop telling me you miss me. Figure out what it is that you're supposed to be doing.” – Barack Obama via Michelle Norris ([43:13])

4. Trump, UFC, and Corruption

[44:22–45:36]

• Business and Politics Intersection:
  Pablo Torre discusses the Trump-UFC partnership, exposing how public-private deals enrich insiders while failing to serve the public.

  Quote:
  “This is not helping anybody. It's only making certain people rich. In this era in which so many people are suffering, who's winning?” – Pablo Torre ([45:36])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• Trump on Delegating Blame:
  “If it works out, I'm going to take the credit. If it doesn't work out, I'm blaming J.D.” – Charlie Sykes ([02:06])

• Madeline Dean on Vance’s Position:
  “JD the vice president of the United States was against this war... defending a 14 point MOU... This is amateur time writing of this MoU for something so gravely serious.” ([05:34])

• Charlie Sykes on the ‘Bucket of Warm Spit’:
  “This is JD's bucket. And there you have a feeling that he is being set up here, that he's been handed this poison chalice. Donald Trump joking that he'll blame J.D. Vance. Well, of course he will.” ([10:44])

• Nicolle Wallace on Trump’s Choices of Vice Presidents:
  “Donald Trump left the last vice president for dead. Donald Trump sent his supporters to, quote, hang Mike Pence.” ([12:38])

• Trump’s Authoritarian Role Models:
  “He began reading from it, reciting the names of... Alexander the Great... Hitler, Mao, Stalin... These leaders maintained power through fear.” – Book excerpt ([15:17])

• Meloni’s Rebuke to Trump:
  “I in Italy never beg. I am frankly shocked. I don't know why the President of the United States behaves this way toward his own allies... it's upsetting he doesn't have the same resolve toward the enemies of the West.” ([22:29])

• Sykes on Trump’s Need for Admiration:
  “He still thinks he's some sex symbol... you're an 80 year old hamburger eaten man who barely seems to be able to walk a straight line and he can't accept the fact that that's who he is.” ([26:41])

• Michelle Obama on Her Portrait:
  “Excellence comes in all shapes, sizes, and colors, genders. Your race, your income is the least of what makes you great. Your pedigree is the least of what makes you great.” ([32:00])

• Eddie Glaude on American Anniversaries:
  “Anniversaries of this magnitude... are opportunities to tell the American story... But not all of what is celebrated has to be true... there are ghosts that have us by the nape of the neck and we have to deal with it honestly.” ([38:23], [39:19])

• Barack Obama via Norris on Civic Duty:
  “Stop telling me you miss me. Figure out what it is that you're supposed to be doing.” ([43:13])

• Pablo Torre on UFC and Corruption:
  “It's only making certain people rich. For the American people... the question is, in this era in which so many people are suffering, who's winning?” ([45:36])

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Vance in Blame Game & Unpopular Iran Deal: [01:07–14:32]
• Trump’s Leadership Style & International Fallout: [14:32–27:51]
• Obama Center Opening & Reflections on Race and Democracy: [30:36–43:13]
• Trump, UFC, and Corrupt Partnerships: [44:22–45:36]

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Episode Tone and Style

The discussion is sharply critical, analytical, and often laced with dark humor, particularly when dissecting the current administration’s errors and Trump’s personality. At the same time, conversations about the Obama Center bring in warmth, hope, and a sense of possibility, underlining the value of honest historical reckoning and civic engagement.

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Takeaways

• J.D. Vance is viewed as both overwhelmed and set up for failure, forced to defend a weak, unpopular foreign policy deal.
• Trump’s transactional politics, egotism, and tendency to publicly blame subordinates have further isolated the U.S. from allies and inflamed internal divisions.
• The Obama Center’s opening on Juneteenth provides a contrasting model of leadership centered on inclusion, honest discussion of history, and renewed civic responsibility.
• Recurring themes: The dangers of sycophancy, the importance of confronting historical truths, and the urgent need for public engagement in sustaining democracy.

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This summary provides a comprehensive guide to the episode, highlighting the most engaging discussions and essential insights for listeners who missed the broadcast.

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

I just wonder if the Vice President who was against this, by all reports, was against the conflict to begin with.

[Charlie Sykes]

Maybe he wasn't the right person to

[Nicole Wallace]

bring this conflict to an end.

[Charlie Sykes]

We'll find out.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

In my opinion, the Vice President of the United States, the chief negotiator on this particular project, has not well served the President.

[Nicole Wallace]

Wow. They found their fault. Hi. Hi again Everybody. It's now five o' clock in the east. So begins the blame game. J.D. vance was made the face of the U. S Iran deal and now that we essentially know a lot of what's in it, I say that because the Memorandum of Understanding still leaves a lot of things less than clear. It is though, J.D. vance in the hot seat for how bad the deal truly is and how unpopular it is even with Trump's own political coalition. Even Donald Trump isn't on the joke, saying earlier this week that he will throw his Vice president under the bus if things don't go well.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

If it works out, I'm going to take the credit.

[Charlie Sykes]

If it doesn't work out, I'm blaming J.D.

[Nicole Wallace]

you better be careful J.D. trump's only kidding until he isn't. Last night we learned of another sign of the shortcomings and failures of the Iran deal, the postponing of JD Vance's trip to Switzerland. He was supposed to go to Switzerland to meet with Iran. Iranian officials of that Axios reports this quote the White House said the reason for the change of plans was logistics, but there were some indications that the background for the decision is connected to the shaky ceasefire in Lebanon. No matter what the reason is, it illustrates that this so called peace deal is not the foreign policy win that Anyone in the Trump administration, especially Vance, is suggesting it is as the Vice President attempts to sell a very unpopular agreement with an extremist radical regime. We're also getting a deeper look into his relationship with Donald Trump. That's thanks to reporting in the upcoming book Regime Change by New York Times reporters Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. They conducted more than 1,000 interviews for their book and presented their findings those they mentioned, giving them opportunity to comment. Haberman and Swan report that Trump's anger with J.D. vance over Iran dates back to at least a year when Vance was not immediately supportive of Trump's idea to bomb Iran. Trump ultimately did bomb Iran's nuclear sites and JD Vance appeared on television to discuss the move from the book. Quote, after watching the Vice President on the ABC News program this Week, Donald Trump vented to others that J.D. vance hadn't repeated his own new phrase that Iran's nuclear program had been, quote, totally obliterated. Trump told one associate, everyone needs to effing. Everyone needs to say effing. Obliterated. That's the word. Everyone just needs to copy what I say. Obliterated. Obliterated. End quote. There's another very revealing anecdote in their new book, quote, During Donald Trump's redecorating spree in the Oval Office, when someone had asked Trump about the near certainty that the next President would remove what he had done, the President had replied without missing a beat. Quote, cubans love gold. Trump quite blatantly saying that his successor would not be his current vice president, J.D. vance, but the man who currently serves as his Secretary of State and acting National Security Advisor, Marco Rubio. J.D. vance's no good, very bad week is where we begin the hour with Democratic Congresswoman Madeline Dean of Pennsylvania. She serves on the Foreign Affairs Committee. Also joining us, Princeton University professor and political analyst Eddie Glaud. He's the author of a brand new book, America USA How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries. It is out now. Also joining our conversation, Charlie Sykes. He's the author of the newsletter to the contrary. Congresswoman, I start with you. These stories are sometimes like covering tarantulas in a bowl. There's not really anybody to root for, but it is interesting when they all start attacking each other. What do you make of the position that J.D. vance is in in terms of being blamed by prominent media members of the MAGA coalition for the weakness of the Iran deal?

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Good to be with you on this, Juneteenth. And I have to tell you, I was just at a Harriet Tubman Museum. So I think about the breadth of and the courage of people who came before us. And to your question, I think about the smallness of what we are talking about, the smallness of the people in this White House, the smallness, sadly, of this president and the smallness of those around him, like JD Dance. JD the vice president of the United States was against this war. He had very strict convictions before he got into this role as sycophant, shill and vice president. And here he is stuck in a terrible, unenviable position. You saw him yesterday spewing lies about the $300 billion and where that was coming from, defending a 14 point MOU that I'm telling you, this is amateur time writing of this MoU for something so gravely serious. So it's very, very small is what we see about something so very, very large and important to our national security, to our global security, to our relationships with our allies and our foes. He's in a terrible spot and he should have stood up with a greater spine.

[Nicole Wallace]

I agree with you on the smallness of the entire Trump story. We were just covering algae blooms and it's such a, I mean, just to pull back the curtain a little bit, it was such a pleasure to cover the Obama center opening yesterday, wasn't it? Joyful, yes, but it was joyful because it wasn't. They refused to make it about them. Right. Like it was all about who we are. It was all about the country. And with Donald Trump, even with the reflecting pool, it's all about what he wants and how it reflects on him. So when it all goes up in green blooms, I guess it's a window into how even the things he purports to care about are badly botched. And with that lens, if you could just talk about what's on the line here, what's at stake in a calamitous resolution to a calamitous war.

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

Oh, everything is at stake. The world is less safe as a result of this president and how he pursued this reckless war without getting the buy in of the American people and of course, constitutionally not coming to Congress. And what he must do now, though I don't believe he will actually understand it, is he must come to Congress in order to safely remove ourselves from this conflict. I think of the 50,000 service members who are there, my own constituents, one of my own staffers is there in this theater. 13 members are dead. 13 service members are dead. Hundreds are wounded. Thousands in Iran are dead. Thousands in Lebanon are dead. 60 or more in Israel are dead. What was this all for? This is so silly. The memorandum of understanding is a memorandum to reopen the straits. So when we get back to Washington, I know the Senate was in this week, but when we get back next week, the House will be back in. I hope somehow we can reclaim, even with this very feckless speaker of the House and Republican majority, I hope we can reclaim our constitutional authority around declarations of war and eliminating and reducing the tensions around Iran. We've gained nothing. As you read this document, the mou, you see that Iran actually wrote this to their benefit. $300 billion with no oversight and no transparency of where those dollars are coming from going into Iran as we go for a 60 day conversation about a conversation about a negotiation. Come on. This country is far better than this. Interesting that Mr. Rubio is completely silent and Mr. Vance seems to be stuck in the muck.

[Nicole Wallace]

Charlie Sykes Vance is stuck in the muck because Donald Trump put him in the muck on purpose and then went to the microphone and said, if it works out, it was me. If it doesn't, I'm blaming him. So one of the features of the second term is that we're not as reliant on things that happen in private because Trump, I don't know if it's his age or if it's the staffer that puts all the positive press she finds on the Internet in front of him, but everything is out loud and public. But J.D. vance did describe Trump as, quote, America's Hitler and, quote, cultural heroine. J.D. vance did rise in the podcast space as staunchly anti war, staunchly against American interventions in the Middle East. And J.D. vance is now the guy being blamed. I showed you just a couple clips by Ryan Kilmeade and Ben Shapiro for the weakness and fecklessness of the war's resolution.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

Well, and J.D. vance's book rollout hasn't been going that well either about his conversion to Catholicism. Particularly when you have the Pope saying, yeah, jd, you don't really get this Catholicism thing. But, you know, FDR's vice president, one of his vice presidents, John Nance Garner, once famously described the vice presidency as a bucket of warm spit. Well, I'm not sure that he actually said spit. Well, this is JD's bucket. And there you have a feeling that he is being set up here, that he's been handed this poison chalice. Donald Trump joking that he'll blame J.D. vance. Well, of course he will. And you know how these Trump jokes turn into policy very, very quickly. You'll notice again when you look at that clip that Marco Rubio does not laugh at that joke. So, you know, I know that there are some people around Vance who are thinking that they're comfortable with this because now, now he can be the face of peace in the Mid East. But the more you look at this mou, this, this deal, the worse it is. He is being asked to sell the country one of the worst foreign policy crap sandwiches in history. I just don't know how you. You know, he can. Well, he can deny that there's a $300 billion slush fund, but it's right there in black and white. So the vice presidency always has that. That weird. That, that weird paradox where you're one heartbeat away from the president, but you are at the president's whim. And I think what we're discovering is, I mean, imagine going into this negotiation knowing that Donald Trump could cut him off at the knees, throw him under the bus, change the words that he should use on a dime. So he is really put in a terrible, terrible position. And to the congresswoman's point, I think it's incredibly telling that the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, is nowhere near trying to sell this deal.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Charlie, the only thing I push back on is he's not in a terrible position because Donald Trump is terrible at negotiating with Iran. He's in a terrible position because he agreed to be the vice president because Donald Trump left the last vice president for dead. Donald Trump sent his supporters to, quote, hang Mike Pence. That was their mission statement on January 6th when Donald Trump sent his supporters to the Capitol. And J.D. vance is in this position of defending fill in the blank, because he went to work for someone he described as, quote, America's Hitler.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

He bought the ticket. Yeah, no, he bought the ticket. And by the way, you know, he wasn't wrong, necessarily. And I do think that it's. It's worth mentioning that, you know, when we talk about JD Vance once saying that he was America's Hitler, that one of the things we're learning in the book, and I'm sure you've talked about this, is Donald Trump's megalomania that he has. There are no limits to his power, that he is one of the great men of history and that he will explicitly compare himself to Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Napoleon and Adolf Hitler. This is a president who's not sitting around going, what would Jesus do? He's asking, what would Adolf Hitler do? What would Napoleon do? What would Mao do? In these particular cases. And now J.D. vance has to, you know, carry this bag into negotiations that are, you know, again, the chances of success are slim, minimal. The politics is terrible. I cannot recall, and Nicole, you've been watching, I cannot recall the kind of denunciation across the board of conservative media, anti Trump media, anti, anti Trump media, MAGA media, all of whom are saying, this is a terrible deal. This is the first time in American history that a president, United States has surrounded as signed an instrument of surrender. Good luck selling that to the nation. Good luck running for president with that on your resume.

[Nicole Wallace]

Eddie, the excerpt that Charlie's talking about is amazing. It's from the new book by the journalist Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan. I read it yesterday, but I'll read the quote that Charlie just referenced. We'd love your thoughts on it. Trump seems to think it's from a historian, but as far as I can tell from this chapter, it's from a golfer's caddy. Trump describes him as a, quote, great golfer named Gary Player. And I think this was someone with that golfer helping him, which I think is called a caddy. But I'm not sure and I'm not totally through the book, but this is the quote. Trump gestured for his assistant to bring us copies of the two page document. He began reading from it, reciting the names of some of history's most powerful figures, explaining how each fell short of his own power as US President. Alexander the Great, the Caesars, William the Conqueror, quote, they didn't have airplanes, right? You couldn't travel around Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Tamerlane, Napoleon, he said with relish, quote, Hitler, Mao, Stalin, these leaders maintained power through fear. He said, this is who he is talking about. Seeing himself in league with. It explains,

[Charlie Sykes]

well, first of all, it's great to see you, Nicole. So it gives us an insight into Donald Trump's values. It gives us an insight into how he imagines the exercise of power. And you combine that with an imperial presidency with kind of the flouting of norms, the outsized power that comes with that, and we get the disaster that we're experiencing. And you have folk who, like J.D. vance, who chose to be around this kind of person, they knew who he was, they knew what his heart actually consisted in, and they chose anyway. But you know, Nicole, I'm sitting here, there's a phrase you used in talking with Congresswoman Dean that I just kept coming back to, a calamitous resolution to a calamitous war. And I understand the calamitous resolution and the way in which we talk about it. I don't want people to then return to the. To the answer being war. What I do know is this. Babies aren't being killed. Thousands aren't being killed in Iran. American soldiers aren't being killed. People aren't being killed. People aren't. Innocents are being killed in Lebanon. Now, it was a calamitous choice to do this. Spent treasure and lives to do it, and now we have this, in effect, surrender. But there are forces out here who are calling it weak, who are really motivated to get us back into the quagmire. So I don't know how we talk about this. I understand the politics, but I do know this. I don't want us to go back to war. Does that make sense?

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I think it is one impulse that may be satisfied or met with. I mean, I don't know. I guess I don't know what the resolution leads to. It is because Donald Trump wants the war to stop, but I don't think he wants the war to stop for the same reasons you do, Eddie. I think he understands that the war which led to the closing of the strait made gas prices in America higher and gas prices in America higher would make his other project of stealing and rigging the midterms more complicated, more of a reach, even for his own base. So I hear you, but I don't think that's at all part of the motivation for this sort of incoherent memorandum of understanding. Does that make sense?

[Charlie Sykes]

No. Yes, I completely agree with that. Whatever Trump's motivations are, they are deeply selfish. They are rooted in his own kind of skewed sense of the world. But what I'm worried about is the way in which the conversation is happening around JD Vance being at the front end, the way in which people are describing this resolution as America looking weak on the national stage. I just don't want us to return to killing innocents and beating the drums of war again. I'm sorry.

[Nicole Wallace]

No, no. I think on that question, the vast majority. I think 91% of the American people agree with you. I mean, I think this war had about a 10% approval rating. I think it was deeply unpopular in Trump's own coalition. So I think on that question, there's vast unity in this country. Congresswoman, thank you for elevating the conversation at the start and starting us off and putting us on a level footing. We appreciate you for that. Eddie And, Charlie, stick around. When we come back when we come back, the prime minister of Italy dropped an uncomfortable truth on Donald Trump that he treats adversaries with far more respect than he treats allies of the United States of America. Those comments come after Trump appeared to have fabricated, lied about, made up an entire story about her wanting to take a picture with him. We'll bring you that reporting. Also ahead, as we mentioned, the Obama Presidential center officially opened its doors to the public this week. And today on Juneteenth, the public was allowed to walk through it for the first time. We'll talk to our colleague Michelle Norris, who interviewed both President Barack Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama about the center and much more, including the direction of our country right now. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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[Nicole Wallace]

Donald Trump, seemingly bottomless endless capacity for telling lies has now created an international incident with a major traditional ally, the United States of America. Italy's foreign minister has canceled his upcoming trip to our country after Donald Trump got into a fight with his one time ally, Italian Prime Minister Giorgio Meloni. It began after an Italian broadcaster published an interview where Donald Trump claimed Meloni begged him for a photo. Trump saying, quote, he she begged me to take a photo with her. She wanted a photo with me so badly I could have skipped it, but I felt sorry for her. She's probably happy I talked to her. I didn't have to talk to her, end quote. For her part, Maloney struck back at that insane and misogynistic account, posting a video saying, quote, I in Italy never beg. I am frankly shocked. I don't know why the President of the United States behaves this way toward his own allies. After all, this is not the first time it has happened. I can only say it is upsetting that he doesn't have the same resolve toward the enemies of the west, toward the enemies of the United States, toward leadership, to which he instead proves much more indulgent. That's what she's saying there in that video. Trump repeated his claim that Melania wanted a photo with him in an interview with NBC News, saying this, quote, that's true. He said, she wasn't there for us. She was a big fan, but I don't want her as a fan because she was not there. Along with the NATO group having to do with the Strait, he added, referring to the Strait of Hormuz, the vital waterway that Iran blocked after Israel and the United States launched attacks in Iran in late February. We're back with Eddie and Charlie. Charlie, what he said about her is what he says about every woman who criticizes him. Basically, she's a dog. She begged me, she wanted me, she wanted to interview me, she wanted to talk to me, she wanted to have her picture taken with me. He's a guy who is deeply unpopular, as he is here. He said 33 to 38%, depending on the poll. And I believe that's the range as of the end of this week, he's about half that popular in Europe. So the idea that she wanted a picture with him, I'm going to go with her account, not his.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

Oh, I think that's safe. I mean, can I just note that we live in the dumbest possible timeline that we're having an international incident over one of Donald Trump's demeaning, crass, sexist, gobsmackingly stupid lies. But, you know, what you're seeing there is that this woman is not for turning. Georgia Maloney is the Iron Woman of Italy. And what is really extraordinary about that video you were showing, it's about 30 seconds long, and it is really devastating. You can see that and again, you know, she used to be very, very friendly with, with, with Donald Trump, but she's really quite angry and she just makes a couple of points. Number one, Donald Trump is lying. Donald Trump has done this before. She goes out of her way to say this. And then we know that the key line that you just, you just mentioned that the dagger is that, you know, where is this kind of, you know, hostility toward the enemies of the West? And then, of course, she, you know, flatly denies it, says, you know, neither I nor Italy will ever beg. Look, if you have, if you wanted an illustration of just how far Donald Trump has gone with his feckless narcissism in alienating the rest of the world, watch that video and ask yourself what is going on here other than, you know, this just the malicious narcissism lashing out at this woman who is the Prime Minister of Israel, one of our more important allies, and his desire to demean her and insult her, and the consequence. What do you think every other leader of Europe is thinking about this profoundly stupid, but quintessentially Trumpian moment.

[Michelle Norris]

Yeah.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, Eddie, I think we are so far behind how the world covers us. I mean, the first fight that Donald Trump picked, I think was with Canada, America's largest trading partner, America's steadfast friend. I think the second was with Mexico, and the third was with or maybe NATO. I mean, all he does is fight with our friends. All he does is abuse our allies. All he does is abuse the countries that stood with us after September 11, after we were attacked, after we cashed in on Article 5. He thinks it's golf club that you pay dues to. It's actually a security pact, and we're the only ones that have drawn out of that account. And on the other side of that, the point she made. Kowtow to America's adversaries.

[Charlie Sykes]

Yeah. I think all of us should go back and reread Prime Minister Carney's speech at Davos. It gives us a sense of the consequences of this orientation to our allies. So it's very clear. But also there's something deeply, deeply, existentially kind of troublesome. Donald Trump longs to be desired. The sexism expresses itself when he's rejected. There's a connection between his sense that the man is 80 years old. He still thinks he's some sex symbol that people want to be next to him. He feels a sense of mortality. So he's going to change the built environment of Washington, D.C. he can't be forgotten. She wanted to take a picture a photo with me so bad because I am that guy. Still no, you're an 80 year old hamburger eaten man who barely seems to be able to walk a straight line and he can't accept the fact that that's who he is. And we find ourselves in this moment as a consequence of that failure to realize where he is at 80 years old.

[Nicole Wallace]

I recount it to someone when he used to call into Maureen Jo. I once had a chance to lob a question at him. I think it was about the Muslim ban and he made a comment about my appearance and then said but I'm so mean to him. I mean all he sees women as is as you said Eddie people too that he wants to desire him and I'm sure not many do. Not these days. Charlie Sykes thank you for joining us. Eddie sticks around a little bit longer after the break. In an interview with our friend and colleague Michelle Norris, former First Lady Michelle Obama opened up about having to set an example for the country as the first black couple in the White House ever. We'll play that for you next.

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[Charlie Sykes]

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[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

you came all the way from Little Rock this How are you feeling being here?

[Jimmy Uso]

It's Juneteenth. Describe Your emotions. We're feeling like we're very connected to our community. It's just a once in a lifetime opportunity for us to be here. We're here with our children and we wanted them to witness this live and in person right now.

[Nicole Wallace]

Right now. And you can. After yesterday's extraordinary speeches and star studded ceremony and performances, today mark the official opening of the highly anticipated Obama Presidential center in Chicago. The timing of Juneteenth is unmistakably symbolic, as are the themes of the center itself. American history, freedom, community and of course, hope. You can see the long, long lines today at the center's first public. Visitors waited to get inside. Tickets are sold out until late into the fall. Our colleague Michelle Norris got a very special look inside the center and behind the scenes. Her special airs tonight at p.m. eastern right here and it features exclusive new interviews with former president Obama and first lady Michelle Obama. Here's a preview of their conversations and what Mrs. Obama wants people to see in their first official portrait together that now hangs in the hope and change lobby of that new center.

[Michelle Norris]

I want to go back to the portrait of the two of you. That image will be in this building for a very long time. 10 years from now, 25 years from now, 50 years from now into the next century, when people are looking back at the image of the two of you. What do you want them to see? What do you want them to remember?

[Michelle Obama]

I want them to see a loving representation of a black couple. And it is important that race is there because we have an ebb and flow of how we feel about people of different races. Some decades we're moving forward. In other decades it feels like, well, what happened? I think we need to be reminded that excellence comes in all shapes, sizes and colors, genders. That there are many people who are great leaders. And your race, your income is the least of what makes you great. Your pedigree is the least of what makes you great. And the co equanimity of our relationship I think is important to remember at a time when, and you know, gender roles are. They go up and down too, you know, what does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be a wife or a husband? That they see a couple that are. That revel in the fact that we are both equals, that that's what gives us energy and that there's love there. Deep, deep love.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to bring in my colleague who conducted that interview, senior contributing editor Michelle Norris. Eddie's still with us as well. Tell me everything. I can't wait to watch your special tonight, Michelle.

[Michelle Norris]

Thank you, Nicole. Thanks for having me. You know, when you work in news and you do big interviews, much like real estate, they say location is everything, timing is everything. And being able to talk to both of them for this special before the Obama Presidential center opened, but also just at a moment where they're both very introspective. And so both, in both interviews, they were just a little bit more open than I think we may have heard them. They were a little bit more introspective, they were funny, they were candid. And it's really interesting to listen to First Lady Michelle Obama talk like that because she brought up race. And you remember how she was pilloried

[Congresswoman Madeline Dean]

every time she tried to do that

[Michelle Norris]

when she was actually in office. And there's a sort of ease with which she can do this now because she's out of office, but she's talking. The irony is that when she talks about the ebb and flow at a moment where America had just elected a black president, just sent a black family to the White House, it was actually harder for the two of them to have open conversations about race, even though that had just happened in America. And now we're in a situation where you see a rise of white supremacy and you see a number of people in very high office, including the highest office in the land, that seem to be very invested in our divisions. It's actually easier for them to talk about these kinds of things and they would say necessary for them to talk about these kinds of things so that people understand the work that still needs to be done.

[Nicole Wallace]

Both of their speeches yesterday were extraordinary, as has often been the case. I'm thinking of the last couple political conventions. She stole the show. What do you know about her speech, how that came to be?

[Michelle Norris]

It was very personal for her, as she said, he didn't get a chance to read it. She very much has wanted, you know, she. She commands a global stage, unlike, I think it's safe to say, unlike any other first lady. She has star power in her own right. And that's saying something when you're the wife of Barack Obama. She commands attention like few other women do. But she wanted to make sure that going into this week that he got her his flowers, that this was a moment to make sure that the attention was fully on him. And she wanted to thank him herself. But she also wanted to invite Americans to look at what he had accomplished and not just the things that we know about, but what it took to do that in that high wire act of Being the first man of color, the first black man to serve, she wanted to help people understand the grace it took, the courage it took, the grit it took, and also the. The slings and arrows that he took in that role. And so she was really honest and candid. And it was interesting because, you know, she says, when they go high, we go low. It's not necessarily that she goes low, but she goes to an interesting place to speak in a way that is not necessarily pugilistic, but it's very tough. I mean, that was a beautiful speech, but it was also a very, very tough speech in standing up, chin up to the critics who have made life more difficult for her and her husband while they were in office.

[Nicole Wallace]

I said this yesterday. I think it's a speech both of them, but especially hers, that people will be studying and talking about for a really long time. I want to bring Eddie in on this conversation. I have to sneak in a quick break first. We'll all be back on the other side.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

Everybody's got an opinion,

[Jimmy Uso]

and that means

[Charlie Sykes]

getting stuff done involves reconciling the demands

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

of a couple of hundred million people. Democracy can be frustrating, it can be

[Jimmy Uso]

slow, it can be inefficient.

[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

And yet, more than anything, I hope this center will serve as an affirmation

[Charlie Sykes]

of just how special, how precious our democracy truly is.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're back with Michelle and Eddie. Eddie, I want to read a little bit from your book. You write this. July 4, 2026, marks the 250th anniversary of the founding of the nation. Anniversaries of this magnitud occasion are opportunities to tell the American story, to look back and reaffirm the basic ideals of the country, and to reflect on the present challenges the nation may face as Americans look toward the future. Declarations of love, of country abound. But not all of what is celebrated has to be true. American anniversaries are often moments to turn a blind eye to the evils of the past and the present, to suppress the fact of America's divided soul. Stories of America's greatness are told to affirm the belief that ours was and remains the greatest country on earth. I know it's a lot to throw at you on this Friday, but where are your thoughts today?

[Charlie Sykes]

Well, first of all, isn't it a breath of fresh air? Complete sentences, reasoned arguments. It was just yesterday was just amazing on so many different levels. But I will say, though it was, for me, it was a kind of clear representation of the divided soul of the country. You think about The UFC fight the claw. You think about the way in which Donald Trump and that their version of the country is being rendered, restoring the truth and sanity to American history. The way in which the court affirms that the president could take off the signs about slavery, the redaction of our past. And then you look at what happened yesterday and you see a particular story rooted in more perfect, more per. More perfect union talk, but the vast diversity of America on full display. And so you have this contrast. Some people who believe that America must be and must always remain a white republic, and those who are trying to grapple with the complexity of our journey to now. And it seems to me in our 250th year, Nicole, we have to deal with the ghosts that have us by the nape of the neck and we have to deal with it honestly. And we had an occasion yesterday to do just that.

[Nicole Wallace]

How do we sustain that, though, Eddie, what we had yesterday? Because I think everyone needed it and was drawn to it, but how do we keep it alive?

[Charlie Sykes]

I think we remember what President Obama himself said, and that is not to be nostalgic in a longing for his years, right? For him. Because in some ways, although we enjoyed yesterday, I enjoyed Stevie, wonderful. There are moments that sounded like 80s music in terms of our contemporary politics. You have 21 year olds, 21 year olds right now, Nicole, whose entire political maturity has taken place with Donald Trump, how they understand politics defined by the Trump years. And so, yes, he articulates some values, but the way in which we do politics in this moment requires something else of us. And I think Barack Obama understood that by saying, don't long for him. Roll up your sleeves and get busy with what we have to do today?

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, that makes them, Michel, the two most coveted people in our politics. How did you see them carry all of this sort of pent up desire for them to weigh in on everything that's happening now and help to shape the future?

[Michelle Norris]

Well, you know, I'm going to answer that in terms of the center that they just opened, because the building, through modern technology and, you know, construction standards, was meant to last 500 years. So they're thinking about, literally meant to last 500 years. So they have to think about how this message that they're delivering now lands over time, 10, 15, 25, 50 years from now. And they recognize that democracy is like a garden that has to be constantly watered and intended to. And so the story that they tell, and I appreciate what Eddie was just saying about the story that we tell ourselves, because this is a big part of what they're, they're, they understand. Obama's both seem to understand the story that we tell ourselves is very important. And this center is meant to play a role in that, to remind people that America has long been having an argument with itself. We say one thing in our creed and in our Constitution, and in reality, we act in a very different way. Our emancipation, our Declaration of Independence promised us equality in a country that had institutionalized and legalized slavery. And so they're trying to help people understand that democracy is a constant battle and that more importantly, that don't tell them that you miss Barack and Michelle Obama. Figure out what is your role in this. What can you do? And he said that visitors and he said that to his former colleagues and he said that to his friends all week. Stop telling me you miss me. Figure out what it is that you're supposed to be doing.

[Nicole Wallace]

That's such an important point. And to that point, Eddie, thank you for spending the hour with us. If folks haven't read it already, it is a perfect weekend to read Eddie's new book, America USA How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries. Michelle, congratulations on your incredible interviews. I can't wait to see the whole thing tonight in your special. We'll be watching at 9pm Eastern for those exclusives with former President Barack Obama, former first lady Michelle Obama. The special is called Hope Comes Home inside the Obama Presidential Center. One more break. We'll be right back. On the latest episode of the Best People podcast, I get to talk to Pablo Torre, who is a a brilliant sports journalist and podcaster. And after the epic Knicks win, Trump's White House cage match, and with the World cup underway, he is the perfect person to listen to. Take a listen to what he told me about Donald Trump's relationship with the ufc.

[Pablo Torre]

This has been his safe space forever. And so this business partnership, which is not coincidental when Dana White has been a speaker at the literal RNC year after year after year, praising Trump, introducing him like he's Melania, you know, that job that typically goes to the spouse. Dana White walks him out. No, it's crazy. And he walks him out. And what does he get out of it? He gets a partnership with the State Department, as Marco Rubio announced it last week, during the week of this fight, in which effectively the things they had cut from the USAID budget under the Doge program, they are re grafting onto the ufc. They're going to have UFC fights in all these countries and export American values like that's insane. It's public private partnership. Right? That's the euphemism. What that is is corruption. This is not helping anybody. It's only making certain people rich. And for the American people, for the fans of mixed martial arts, for the fans in the audience who hear that guy say that about Michelle Obama, the question is, in this era in which so many people are suffering, who's winning?

[Nicole Wallace]

Who is winning? You can listen to the whole episode right now. It's available to premium subscribers starting today. You just scan the QR code to sign up for full access. The episode will be released to everybody on Monday. That does it for us. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes all week long. We are grateful.

[Jimmy Uso]

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[Political Analyst (possibly Jonathan Swan)]

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[Nicole Wallace]

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[Pablo Torre]

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[Michelle Norris]

See Terms and conditions for details.

[Nicole Wallace]

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