← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“We certainly have things in common”
00:43:13
Nicolle Wallace reacts to the release of what appears to be Donald Trump’s birthday note to Jeffrey Epstein and bombshell reporting on JPMorgan’s role in enabling long after he was a convicted sexual offender.
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- [01:11]
Nicole Wallace
Hi everyone. Happy Monday. It's shaping up to be a huge day of News. It is 4 o' clock in New York. It's also shaping up to be a very bad day for Donald Trump and his so called hoaxes. Breaking in the last hour, Democrats on the House Oversight Committee have released what appears to be the image that Donald Trump claimed never existed, over and over and over again, to the point that Donald Trump has even sued the news outlet that first reported on the existence of this image. We're talking, of course, about the note Donald Trump allegedly wrote to his pal Jeffrey Epstein for his 50th birthday. Here it is. It reads, quote voiceover the there must be more to life than having everything. The note begins. DONALD yes, there is. But I won't tell you what it is. JEFFREY Nor will I, since I also know what it is. DONALD we have certain things in common, Jeffrey. JEFFREY yes, yes we do. Come to think of it, Donald Trump enigmas never age. Have you noticed that? JEFFREY As a matter of fact, it was clear to me the last time I saw you. DONALD A pal is a wonderful thing. Happy birthday and may every day be another wonderful secret. End quote wow. Let all that sink in. It's only Monday. In a post online, Donald Trump's deputy chief of staff, Taylor Budo Witch, claims that the letter doesn't contain Trump's signature. It was first published by the Wall Street Journal. Wall Street Journal is the defendant in a defamation suit brought by Donald Trump in which Donald Trump claims this letter is, quote, non existent. Can also expect more revelations in the coming days. A bipartisan group of lawyers on the House Oversight Committee are expected to see a series of unredacted documents as they include flight logs and phone records, as well as unredacted, an unredacted version of this birthday book. That's all happening this week, and it's all happening at the same time as a so far unfounded claim that someone made who was trying to defend Donald Trump is collapsing in spectacular and humiliating fashion, if that's still possible for a Republican. Last week, Speaker Mike Johnson, one of the most powerful Republicans in Washington, made an audacious claim. He said that Donald Trump cares so deeply about the women who were abused and harmed by Jeffrey Epstein that Donald Trump was. Wait for it and sit down if you're not. Was actually an FBI informant. And then Speaker Johnson said this to, quote, try to take this stuff down, end quote. He said that Republican Thomas Massie, who's leading a bipartisan push to release all the Epstein files alongside his colleague, Democrat Congressman Ro Khanna, had this to say about Republican Speaker Mike Johnson's comment.
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Commercial Announcer
The lawyers for the victims said that Donald Trump had been helpful in 2009 in their case by giving them information. But being an informant implies some formal connection and ongoing relationship with the FBI.
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Nicole Wallace
The.
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Commercial Announcer
I don't know what that's all about. I think the speaker needs to clarify that. And if it's a hoax, why was Donald Trump an informant to a hoax?
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Nicole Wallace
Yeah, why? So again, these are all Republicans. Republican Thomas Massie with the $64 million question, why was he an informant to a hoax? So Mike Johnson, getting caught with his sycophant hat on, did go ahead and clean it up. He backed off his claim that Donald Trump was an informant in the Epstein investigation. Speaker of the House Mike Johnson told reporters this today, quote, oh, I don't know if I used the right word. Speaker of the House. Guys, I said FBI informant. I'm not sure. I wasn't there. This is in my lane. I'm just repeating what is common knowledge and what has been out in the public for a long time. End quote, speaker of the House. It's unclear to what degree if at all, Donald Trump help prosecutors go after Epstein. And if the speaker wanted transparency on that matter, on that question, he's the Speaker. He could bring a bill to the floor to release all the Epstein files, but he hasn't done that, refuses to do that. Actually. The implosion of Donald Trump's disinformation efforts when it comes to his ties to Jeffrey Epstein is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends joining us here at the TABLE President of Reproductive Freedom for all Mini Tim Raju is here. Also joining us, the host of the Fast Politics podcast and Vanity Fair special correspondent, MSNBC political analyst Molly Jong. Fast is here and with us at the table. MSNBC legal correspondent Lisa Rubin joins us. Tell me about what is jarring to the eye. I have to say this photo of Donald Trump's letter to Jeffrey Epstein in the bound birthday book is on the homepage of the Wall Street Journal. There it is. It's, it's, I don't know what the words are. It's body. It's gross. That Trump wrote it to a dead sex offender is really, really sick. What is the significance of this day?
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Lisa Rubin
There are a bunchi mean, Nicole, where do you want me to start? There's so much significance to this day, but let's start with the fact that Donald Trump kept calling the Epstein matter a hoax. And not coincidentally, that started for him very soon after he was confronted by the Wall street journal on, around July 15th with the fact that they had a copy of this letter. Now, the letter, as you just showed it, is basically exactly as described by the Journal. And yet there's something, as you just noted, totally jarring about seeing it in person. For the, there was a point in time earlier where you were scrolling down it and it felt like we were scanning down a female body. There's just a feeling of creepiness that accompanies it that even the reporting about it didn't convey.
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Nicole Wallace
And let me just say, it's not a feeling. It is a female body. And the signature is obviously in a place that enhances the creepy feeling. I mean, we're dealing in a world where what is is. Yes. And I, I was just told there's a statement from Brad Edwards, who's represented 200 survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's sexual abuse on the release of this image today. Let me read this. Quote. President Trump's hypocrisy has been most frustrating for the victims. He told the public the Epstein story should, quote, go away, yet filed a $10 billion lawsuit that only magnifies the very issue he wants silenced. With today's release, the least he could do is withdraw that lawsuit and publicly apologize to the journalist he attacked for reporting what seems to have now been proved to be true. What happens to this is coming from the victim's attorney. So I'll get right to this. What happens to the defamation suit?
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Lisa Rubin
Well, I think Trump, as we know, is not likely to back down, but I think this becomes increasingly difficult for him because not only do we have an electronic copy of the letter. Now, that is exactly as reported by the Journal, which makes it difficult to show that they acted as a defamation suit requires, with reckless disregard for the truth. If anything, this proves it was true. But that will become even more difficult later this week when House oversight staff goes to see original versions of this book in its unredacted form. That will show them a bound book in which this letter is part. You and I both know that the idea of inserting a fake letter into a 22 year old book is somewhat preposterous. It's not as if the Epstein estate had motivation or reason to do that. They don't really have a dog in this fight. And so it will just make it all the more difficult for him to continue along those lines. But Nicole, I want to say one more thing about the significance of this day. It's not lost on me that we're finding out that this letter was in fact exactly as the Journal reported on the same day that Donald Trump's liability to E. Jean Carol in The amount of $83.3 million was upheld by the Second Circuit. This is a person who has told us repeatedly before not to believe survivors and who has made a repeated judgment in this case not to enhance their credibility by making the decision that seems obvious to all of us. Release more of the files. Authorize the Department of Justice to be transparent with the American people. This isn't a person who's aligning himself with survivors. If anything, this is a person whose conduct again and again has shown us that he been himself a perpetrator, not a person who sides with victims and survivors.
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Nicole Wallace
I want to keep this conversation centered on the victims, but I just want to do one more thing on the fact that there's a defamation lawsuit for $10 billion that has been claimed. I went to journalism school and learned that truth is an absolute defense. And the truth is this thing is now before all of our eyes. I keep coming back to Donald Trump telling his supporters from a podium, don't believe your eyes, don't believe your ears. The White House sort of disinform today includes an argument about his signature. But let me put up the signature side by side with the signature. I mean, again, I'm not a forensic signature analyst, but this is the defense. Let me read the rest of the smears that the Wall Street Journal has endured from not just the President, but the vice president and the president's spokesperson. Here's what JD man said about the Wall Street Journal. Quote, forgive my language, but this Story is complete and utter bullshit. The Wall Street Journal should be ashamed for publishing it. Where is this letter? Where is this letter? Would you be shocked to learn they never showed it to us before publishing it? Does anyone honestly believe this sounds like Donald Trump? J.D. vance wasn't done. Quote, doesn't it violate some rule of journalistic ethics to publish a letter like this without showing it to the victim of the hit piece? Well, the people who have brought into this, into every hoax against President Trump show an ounce of skepticism before buying into this bizarre story. Caroline Leavitt posted this about the Wall Street Journal. Quote, the Wall Street Journal published a hatchet job article with a fake birthday letter that's supposedly from 03. Caroline Leavitt went on to say, this is like the Steele dossier that kick started the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax all over again. The Wall Street Journal refused to show us the letter and conceded they don't even have it in their possession. When we asked them to verify the alleged document they're basing their entire fake story on, she went on and on. I'm not going to subject my viewers to all of her lies, but what happens to all the lies that have been put out there on behalf of Caroline and J.D. vance, about the Wall Street Journal.
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Minnie Tim Raju
Well, and I think it's important to point out that the Wall Street Journal is owned by famous liberal Rupert Murdoch.
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Nicole Wallace
As I'm asking the question, I'm like.
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Molly Jong-Fast
Why do I bleep and care?
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Nicole Wallace
But it's a news and he's a journalist. Yes.
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Minnie Tim Raju
And as a man who really understands what it's like to go to court on a lawsuit and win, especially when it comes to journalism, I mean, he's also had other problems. But the point here is that this, they. I think that what's so important about this moment is this is a man who ran Donald Trump in the first term. He was always making homages to QAnon. Right. Remember, QAnon was an idea that there were someone was trafficking children.
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Nicole Wallace
Right?
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Minnie Tim Raju
Now, here's a man who actually, we.
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Nicole Wallace
Know, trafficked children, right?
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Minnie Tim Raju
So, and the fact that this administration was constantly like, we have it on our desk, you know, Pam Bondi. It's on my desk. The list is on my desk. And then all of a sudden, it's fake news. It's not real, It's a hoax. Honestly. They told their base that this matters. And we all know morally that this matters, that the people who traffic children are the lowest of the low. They are the people who deserve, you know, to be called out to beI mean all of it to be jailed. And so I think to pivot at the last minute, you're worried. Who knows? Or because you feel, whatever, that's not okay. And I think that the base feels rightfully the way the rest of us do, which is like, you can't pivot on this.
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Nicole Wallace
Well, and the base includes some of the victims. I mean, here are the victims in their own words, talking about their own politics. This is Haley Robson.
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Molly Jong-Fast
I.
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Claire McCaskill
Have you invited the President to meet with you? Have you heard anything from the White House?
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Nicole Wallace
Crickets. I've heard crickets.
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Epstein Victim Advocate
Donald Trump. We are not here to point fingers. We are not here to be hostile. We, in fact, would like to team up with Congress and team up with this administration to not only come to a resolution for the Epstein files, but also we have lives to live. And, you know, it does. Doesn't help us when, you know, for years we have been ignored, disregarded. And the fact that we came to the Capitol uninvited and, you know, we're not getting paid for this. There's no compensation. We want justice. And for us to travel all the way and to just be once again disregarded and called a hoax, you know, it's defamatory. But beyond that, it's extremely offensive to our trauma as somebody who voted for this administration and for somebody who, who rode the coattail of the whole campaign being based on, hey, listen, we are going to resolve this by formally releasing all of the documentation that's been withheld. And we want answers, too. You know, my party didn't show up for me. My party was a very big disappointment for me.
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Nicole Wallace
I'm sorry to make you follow her, but because she's so compelling and the idea that this is. There are no Democratic or Republican angles on this story, there are victims who were promised something by Donald Trump.
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Claire McCaskill
You know, what she said is what we've heard from so many Republican and independent women who voted for Trump, despite a lot of our efforts to persuade them not to. Right. They voted for Trump because they felt connected to his message. They felt he was. Tell it like it is, tell the truth. And they are profoundly disturbed and disappointed by what they're hearing now, these victims particularly, but also what they're seeing overall from this administration, which is promise after promise broken, like, almost like a bait and switch situation. But I think what's most important about what she said is that she wanted to work with Congress, she wants to work with the Trump administration. It's notable that the organizations behind bringing those survivors to the Capitol, they're not partisan organizations. These are survivors organizations. These are groups that focus on sexual assault. These are not political organizations. And these women were there just to speak their truth and to hold people in power accountable. And they're not getting that. And that is incredibly painful to watch.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me play the ad that your group has up.
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Molly Jong-Fast
Trump's enablers are protecting him from the.
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Nicole Wallace
Consequences of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein because it's all one plan.
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Molly Jong-Fast
Question women's right to vote, rewind advances in women's health care, chip away at our reproductive freedom and silence the survivors of sexual assault. Trump's enablers could make him release the files, let the world see the truth, but they aren't. Tell the Department of Justice to release the Epstein files. We need to fight for survivors and demand the truth.
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Nicole Wallace
It brings us to Speaker Johnson, who months ago I described on the air as the White House Director of Legislative Affairs. There's no I worked in the White House. It's an insult to every past White House Director of alleged affairs to go on TV and lie and say Donald Trump as an FBI informant in sort of the powder keg that is the right wing view on FBI informants when it came to January 6th and other issues was one of the most toxic things I've heard from a toxic political movement in the maga, Republicans. And to say something so offensive to Republican Thomas Massie that Massey went on TV and he had to apologize and take it all back does represent a new low from these Republicans.
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Claire McCaskill
You know, the reason we cut the ad and the reason why we've been more vocal on this issue is because it is all connected. Mike Johnson is a longtime extremist who is anti gender equity. And there is a through line from Epstein to now to this Congress, to this White House that is determined to roll back fundamental freedoms for the majority of Americans. But let's be clear, a special emphasis on women. And look, it's not an accident, you know, in all authoritarian regimes, in the beginning of an assault on democracy, they go after the women first and their reproductive freedom. And it's not an accident that we're also seeing this pronatalist movement grow at the same time. They want to put these survivors in their place. They want them to shut up. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm really proud of the Republican women who have stood up. I never thought I'd agree with Marjorie Taylor Greene, but if they come up with that list and she reads it from the House floor, it is going to be the beginning of a massive crack in their coalition that we, frankly, I am partisan and I, we as advocates have to exploit to tell the truth to voters.
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Nicole Wallace
Do you want to stick around a little bit longer? I know we're supposed to free you if you can stick around a bit longer. There's much more to the story. We're going to follow the money. There's a never ending ick factor. And I apologize before, during and after all of our coverage of Jeffrey Epstein. But there is more that we're learning about and we continue to learn every day. The latest revelations come from the New York Times in a bombshell piece of reporting about how the bank JP Morgan Chase was a player in Jeffrey Epstein's massive sex trafficking operation for for many, many years. One of the reporter who has done that journalism will join us. Also had new polling shows that Americans continue to be extremely unhappy with Donald Trump's job performance, including what he said he was brought back to Washington to fix things like the economy. We'll talk about that. And the one man who seems to be leading the Trump resistance movement most effectively. And later in the broadcast, after Donald Trump essentially called for war on an American city, on American citizens, the United States Supreme Court today seemed to empower the Trump administration to do just that with more tools. All those stories and more when Deadline White HOUSE continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Today.
- [20:41]
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- [21:13]
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Saturday, October 11th from New York City, it's MSNBC Live 25. Join your favorite MSNBC hosts, Rachel Maddow, Joe Scarborough, Mika Bruszinski, Nicole Wallace, Ari Melber, Alicia Menendez, Simone Sanders Townsend, Michael Steele, Chris Haynes, jen Psaki, Lawrence O', Donnell, Stephanie Ruhle and more. Visit MSN NBC.comlive25 to buy your tickets today.
- [21:42]
Nicole Wallace
Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes.
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This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening?
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Nicole Wallace
Harvard political scientist Erica Chenoweth.
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Minnie Tim Raju
People often find out the world they're in after the fact. And that's what makes this wave of global autocratization, as they call it, much more like the one that was in the 1920s and 30s than the one that was in like the 1960s. And 70s because in the 60s and 70s there were bright lines. There was a couple of outright by the military declaring themselves the caretaker government or there was an armed revolution that won. We're in a different world where most of the aspiring autocrats today are elected authoritarians.
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That's this week on why Is this Happening?
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Nicole Wallace
Search for why Is this Happening?
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Where you're listening right now and follow.
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Nicole Wallace
The Epstein scandal is first, second, third, foremost a story about unchecked sexual abuse, sex trafficking among some of the most powerful people in our country. It is another thing too, though it is also a financial scandal of epic and pretty opaque proportions. Brand new blockbuster reporting in the New York Times starts to pull the curtain back and reveals just how much one bank, America's leading bank, JP Morgan, enabled Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operation and also enriched him. According to this New York Times reporting, quote, during a time when Epstein was regularly sexually abusing teenage girls and young women, JP Morgan processed more than 4,700 transactions totaling more than $1.1 billion for him, including payments to his victims. It also wired his money to east to Russian and Eastern European banks that appeared connected to Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking operations. There were repeated objections from bank officials over keeping Epstein as a client of the bank. But the New York Times reports this, quote, on at least four occasions over five years, the bank's leaders overrode those objections and continue to serve Jeffrey Epstein. The overrides were because of the influence of top executive Jess Staley, who Jeffrey Epstein had a close relationship with. Staley urged the bank to preserve their relationship with Jeffrey Epstein because he, quote, traded favors and gossip and advice. He created an aura of indispensability and of being so plugged in, traits that made him a vital asset for a worldwide cast of government and business leaders. And in turn, the bank, quote, gave Jeffrey Epstein access to more money and connections that he could use to power his criminal activities. It wasn't until Jeffrey Epstein's arrest in the year 2019 that JP Morgan finally flagged thousands of Jeffrey Epstein's suspicious transactions to the federal government, something they might have, should have done years earlier. Now a spokesperson for JP Morgan tells the New York Times that the bank's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, quote, was a mistake and in hindsight we regret it, but we did not help him commit his heinous crimes, end quote. Joining our conversation, the author, the journalist behind that astounding reporting, New York Times Deputy Investigations editor David Enrich. Minnie, Molly and Lisa are here. David, just tell me more of what you've uncovered about the divide inside the bank.
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I
Well, the bank realized pretty early on, as far back as 2006, that there was some pretty shady stuff going on with Epstein's accounts. He was withdrawing huge amounts of cash on a regular basis. He was wiring money all over the world. And the explanations that Epstein provided to the bank for what this money was for just didn't add up. And anti money laundering experts and compliance officials within the bank repeatedly flagged these concerns to their superiors, who without fail and made it, made the decision over and over again that because Epstein was profitable and because it was kind of in their best interest to look the other way at what he appeared to be doing, that it made more sense to keep him as a client rather than take the painful step of kicking them out.
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Nicole Wallace
You write this. In 2003, Jeffrey Epstein withdrew more than $175,000 in cash from his JP Morgan accounts. A huge haul even for someone with millions at the bank. Outside investigators later found that Jeffrey Epstein paid almost that exact amount to Women that year. J.P. morgan recognized that those withdrawals needed to be reported to federal regulators that monitor large cash transactions. But the bank failed to treat those withdrawals as an early warning system for itself. I know you deal in facts. I'm guessing that was part of the bank's defense. But it had to have swirled in his circles, which had to have included his fancy bankers, that he was doing all the things Donald Trump wrote about in the birthday card, that he had a big secret and he liked young girls.
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I
No, they. They had a very good inkling that this was what Epstein was doing long before the bank opted to get rid of them. They had a pretty good inkling that this is what he was using the bank for, this is what he was using this money for. And one of the many things that I found really upsetting that we saw when we looked at these thousands of pages of emails and other records was you could see bank executives one moment saying, well, this would look pretty bad if it came out publicly, and then the next moment sending joking emails to their colleagues about how everyone was laughing about Jeffrey Epstein and how basically what an open secret it was that he had abusive and sometimes illegal relationships with girls and young women. So there is, I think, no chance that the bank did not realize what Epstein was doing in his private life. And I think there are a lot of people inside the bank who had real, really and serious suspicions that he was using JP Morgan as a vehicle to finance his illegal activities.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me read a little bit more from your story. About this topic. Quote, that August, Jess Stanley attended a Hamptons fundraiser and was struck by the crowd's composition. Quote, the ages between husbands and wives would have fit well with Jeffrey, end quote, he told Mary Erdos in an email. She replied that Epstein's name had come up at an event the night before. An acquaintance noted how another prominent New York businessman liked to surround himself with beautiful assistants. Quote, lots of comparisons to JE Erdos wrote, adding that people were, quote, laughing about Jeffrey. Are all these people still at JPMorgan who were joking about Jeffrey Epstein?
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I
Some of them are. Jess Daley was pushed out of the bank several years ago. Mary Erdos, though, is still a senior executive at the bank. And the person who deserves, in my opinion, the most attention is the bank CEO, Jamie Dimon, who is one of the most powerful bankers on Wall street, who claims that he had no idea that Jeffrey Epstein was even a client of the bank until 2019, but who is a guy who is, by his own accounting, kind of a micromanager, obsessed with details and either was just strangely oblivious to the details of what was going on here or has been providing false information to investigators about what he knew and when he knew it.
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Nicole Wallace
Let me read what you write about Jamie Dimon from your story. Quote, In 2008, Jeffrey Epstein pleaded guilty to soliciting sex from a minor and was sentenced to 18 months in the Palm Beach County Jail. Staley later testified under oath that he alerted Jamie Dimon to Jeffrey Epstein's guilty plea and that Jamie Dimon told him to talk to General Counsel counsel Steven Cutler. Around that time, as two executives in the private bank emailed about whether Jeffrey Epstein's accounts would be closed, one of them said that the decision was, quote, pending Dimon review. How does that square with what you just said? And in his own sworn deposition, Jamie Dimon said he, quote, did not recall knowing anything about Jeffrey Epstein until 2019. If in 2008, after he became a convicted sex offender, they were waiting explicitly for Jamie Dimon's, quote, review about whether or not he'd remain a client. And did he remain a client?
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I
Yeah, and he remained a client for five more years after that. And, no, it just doesn't add up. I mean, I could try to kind of reconcile it in various ways. Someone here is clearly not telling the truth. And I don't know whether that's Jess Staley, who is not telling the truth, or Jamie Dimon, who's not telling the truth. But the most generous explanation here for Dimon is that he was oblivious to what his subordinates were doing and wasn't paying attention to one of the bank's most important clients at a time when many of his subordinates, including his general counsel, his head of compliance, a bunch of other senior executives, were all warning loudly that they needed to get rid of Epstein. And so it's really either Dimon knew about it, which is bad, or he didn't know about it, which also strikes me as problematic.
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Nicole Wallace
Lisa Rubin, I've read a little bit about Jamie Dimon's leadership style, and I've read in his own telling, he wakes up and reads dozens of newspapers every day. By 2008, if you read dozens of newspapers, it's pretty hard to miss this. It's a sweetheart deal that Epstein gets. He's able to be essentially on home arrest and continues his abuse.
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Lisa Rubin
What's really crazy to me about this story is that as a lawyer, I had clients who were debanked for being charged with other types of crimes, but not crimes against people, financial crimes. For example, somebody charged with security fraud who loses access to their banks and suddenly has nowhere to put their money. And those are people who definitely don't register in the upper tiers of clients of a bank the way that Jeffrey Epstein does. So the very fact that this guy, even though it was a sweetheart deal, he pled guilty to a sex crime, did time pursuant to an agreement with state and federal prosecutors, and yet that escapes the notice of everyone at the bank and they continue a banking relationship with him for five more years that also sort of defries credulity in a way.
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Nicole Wallace
One of those cases is actually the actor Wesley Snipes. Around the time of Jeffrey Epstein's indictment, the Justice Department charged Another customer of JPMorgan, Wesley Snipes, with tax fraud and he was quickly, almost immediately, kicked out of the bank.
- [32:19]
Lisa Rubin
Yeah, that happens routinely to people.
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Nicole Wallace
Interesting. David Enrich and Lisa Rubin. David, we trust that some more developments. You'll have them. First, thank you for joining us with your reporting. It's pretty incredible. Molly and Minnie, stick around up next for us. As Donald Trump's approval rating continues to tank, there is a strong Trump resistance movement growing. Much of it is centered around the time redistricting effort in the state of California. We'll show you what it looks like next.
- [32:48]
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- [33:28]
Nicole Wallace
I need a coffee.
- [33:30]
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- [33:51]
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- [34:08]
Nicole Wallace
The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
- [34:12]
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- [34:22]
Nicole Wallace
So a new poll conducted by NBC News shows sort of the structural dynamics between Donald Trump's collapse in popularity. Just 43% of all Americans approve of Donald Trump's job performance. And he got there in part by taking a sledgehammer to the economy, to Americans access to health care and a daily war on democracy that he is waging through very showy public executive actions. Those three issues, destroying the economy, threatening our very democracy and taking away making health care harder to get and more expensive, make up two thirds of what voters care about most. It all leads to this last figure, which is a damning indictment of Donald Trump, Trump's second term, on the issue of who Americans want governing. According to the NBC News poll, 58% of all adults say they prefer an insider, like for the first time in never, compared to 42% who say they want an outsider who wants to shake things up. People are over shaken. It's so bad that America misses career politicians. Yes, this is real. Joining our coverage, former Democratic Senator MSNBC political analyst Claire McCaskill's here. And Molly are still here. Claire, Donald Trump has made career politicians, in the words of the voters themselves, quote, insiders great. Again, go figure.
- [35:50]
Molly Jong-Fast
I mean, I'm like, obviously my timing is off.
- [35:56]
Nicole Wallace
It's not too late, my friend. We'll run you tomorrow, sister.
- [36:00]
Molly Jong-Fast
Oh, yes, it is. It's way too late. Listen, I, I think that people. You're right. I think people are except for the Maga base, which is about 20 to 25% of the country, unfortunately, a larger portion of the Republican Party, they are not happy with how things are going. They feel uncertain about their own finances. They feel uncertain about what is going on internationally in terms of all of these wars and the fact that he's now, in way some ways declaring war by saying he doesn't want it to be defense anymore, he wants it to be the Department of War. So people are unsettled. And I think these redistricting fights are the proxy. I mean, clearly in California, that is a proxy for Gavin Newsom versus Donald Trump for President.
- [36:52]
Nicole Wallace
Claire, let me start with where you started. I'm reading Mel Robbins. Let them. And I don't know that she intends it to be used this way, but let's just let them, right? Let's stop talking about them on this show, right? The 25% might even be closer to 30. And let them have him. Right? Like, if they are excited about one doll for Christmas, to quote Donald Trump, if they are excited about everything being more expensive, if they feel good when they leave the grocery store, let them. I think it's terrible. But if they're happy with all that, let them. And let me read you what independents say about the Trump presidency. Quote, feelings in one word about the Trump presidency. Among independents. Thrilled. 1% of all independents are thrilled. Happy 1% are happy. Satisfied. 6% neutral, 34%. And it's downhill from there. One word about the Trump presidency from independence, dissatisfied, 35%, angry 10%, furious 11%. So even my crummy math skills can add up. 35, 10 and 11. And I come to 56% somewhere between dissatisfied and furious with Donald J. Trump.
- [38:07]
Molly Jong-Fast
Yeah. And I know this drives the base of our party crazy when I talk about this, but part of this is my background in a state that has turned so ruby red, they're getting ready to carve up Kansas City to give Donald Trump another congressional seat in Missouri. But independents really matter. There are just as many independents in this country as there are any other party. And increasingly, people are rejecting the two parties and wanting to claim that independent monarchs occur because they're not happy with either party in the way that the bases of the parties, in their view, are behaving, whereas I think the base of the Democratic Party has been pretty darn reasonable. Independents want a different view. And I really urge people who are running in swing districts and in states that could vote for either a Republican or a Democrat to pay attention to the polling with independent voters because this is disastrous for Trump to have 56% of the independents dissatisfied, angry or furious. That is a huge number for him to overcome, not only for the midterms, but for J.D. vance, whoever is going to be his hand picked candidate in 2028, hoping it's not him.
- [39:15]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, to your point, Claire, you've also got other currents that I think represent where independents or people who maybe checked in last November but aren't paying a ton of news. The issue of immigration. 79% of all Americans think immigration is a good thing. Vaccines are another one. Overall, 78% of all Americans support the use of vaccines. And behind those Numbers it includes 93% of Democrats, 72% of independents, but 67% of Republicans. So 67% of Republicans want to be able to go to CVS. This isn't just older Republicans. All Republicans want to be able to go to CVS and get the vaccines that have been developed and engineered and marketed until Donald Trump, Trump and RFK Jr. Took over the federal government. We'll talk about that on the other side of a break. We'll bring our table in on it. We'll all be right back. Claire, Minnie and Molly are back. I feel like we could solve everything. You guys are working on the redistricting issue in California?
- [40:16]
Claire McCaskill
Yeah, about a week ago we announced our campaign. We've got 400,000 members in the state. I will say that when we announced this campaign to our membership, folks are just so hungry to fight back and Californians are so excited to be able to do it in their own state as opposed to us saying, hey, can you call Arizona or Nevada? So we've seen a spike in engagement in our membership. And look, folks are super energized by Governor Newsom taking this fight to Trump. And they're enjoying the snark, they're enjoying the memes, but they're also really enjoying the opportunity to connect the dots. One of the things, one of the things we've been educating folks on in California is the fact that the biggest mega donor behind the opposition, Charlie T. Munger, is a known anti abortion extremist who's been funding crisis pregnancy centers, fake clinics, some of the most gross nefarious stuff in the movement against abortion care. And you can connect the dots again. They want a national abortion ban. They cannot do it fair and square. They're going to do it by stealing C like we've seen them do in lots of places.
- [41:19]
Nicole Wallace
The fight in California and the person leading it, Gavin Newsom, feel to me like nine years into the Trump story. The asymmetry has finally been corrected.
- [41:31]
Minnie Tim Raju
You know, I actually wrote a column about this last week about Newsom's Internet strategy. And it's not so much about Newsom as much as it is about breaking through symmetry. Right.
- [41:42]
Nicole Wallace
It is like, I feel like Trump. Trump wins the Republican primary in 2015 by fighting an asymmetrical war. Newsom is the first person having a symmetrical political fight with Donald Trump.
- [41:54]
Minnie Tim Raju
Yeah. And when I talked to his team, they told me about how they sort of experimented with it. They wondered if it was too far. And then all of a sudden, they saw they were breaking through. And we are in a moment where attention is capital, and if you can break through, you matter. And if you can break through, people know about you. And if people don't know about you, they don't vote for you. I mean, this is not ideological at this point. It's a question of getting through a sea of noise and being able to connect with voters.
- [42:22]
Nicole Wallace
What's also about holding up a mirror and saying, if you think this is absolute clownish, you know, words I can't say on tv, that's fine, talk to your guy. But this is where the fight is.
- [42:32]
Minnie Tim Raju
Being waged, and that has been really successful for them. And you've seen, seen Republicans say, like, this is undignified. A governor shouldn't behave like this. And all of a sudden you have to be like, yes, but a president does.
- [42:43]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, there's that. What is happening to women in America right now?
- [42:48]
Claire McCaskill
I mean, on every level, we're under assault. You know, one of the things that's most important to understand about the big. Whatever, I can't say the word, but the big hideous bill, the big hideous bill is the cuts to Medicaid. We talk a lot about abortion access, and obviously that's a lot of what I talk about. But Medicaid is a reproductive freedom program. It's prenatal care, it's postpartum care. It's 40% of all births. You know, I was asked recently how many deaths have been. How many deaths can we track as a result of Dobbs? I was like, we need to be tracking the deaths that are going to happen because of these guts, these cuts to Medicaid. You know, there's data that shows when, when coverage is extended to postpartum care for moms in this country. It saves their lives. We are gutting life saving care for women. Title 10 has been gutted because of DEI by this administration. Medicaid has now been under threat. We're already seeing in rural areas, hospitals shutting down. We're creating absolute race to the bottom in terms of how we care about women and girls. And that's why, you know, going back to the elderly Epstein coverage, we have to center the women and girls in these stories because we're the ones getting the most screwed by this administration.
- [44:03]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Claire, it comes back, though, to our politics. Women and girls are afterthought is putting it way too generously for MAGA Republicans. It's why some of the most extreme MAGA women have broken with the MAGA movement over the Epstein files. But it feels like there's a deeper reckoning that has to happen in the pro democracy movement, which at this moment only includes the Democratic Party about talking to men about what life is going to be like in America for their wives, their mothers and their daughters.
- [44:36]
Molly Jong-Fast
Yeah. I think one of the mistakes we have made in terms of messaging, and we've talked about it before, Nicole, you and I have talked about it before on this program. That is, we can't be couching these issues, whether it's the gutting of Medicaid, whether it's the lack of reproductive health freedom, what they're now trying to do in Texas and other places to keep mifepristone away from women, which is the most common way that women are terminating a pregnancy that is unwanted or dangerous for them. And, you know, instead of talking about it in that context, we need to talk about it in the context of the men, what impact this will have on men. And because it's not just the women that are impacted. It is the men's sisters and their mothers and their daughters and their wives. And we've got to do that more frequently because if we just say it's about women, then the men here, well, they don't really think we matter. And that's not the case. The Democratic Party is fighting for minimum wage and lower taxes and fair economic policies for everyone, not just women, but women and men. And the Republicans, meanwhile, have gutted all these programs, programs just to give their billionaire buddies more money in their pocket.
- [45:50]
Nicole Wallace
Claire McGoskill, thank you for being part of this conversation. Molly Jong Fast and Minnie Timraji, thank you for being at the table for the hour. Up next for us, a big rejection for Donald Trump after an appeals court said Donald Trump isn't immune from everything. We'll tell you about it next. Today, another legal defeat for Donald Trump. As we mentioned earlier in the broadcast, a federal appeal court upheld the $83.3 million jury award against Donald Trump for defaming E. Jean Carroll. And that dollar amount has only increased thanks to New York's 9% annual interest rate. The panel also rejected Donald Trump's argument that the Supreme Court's immunity decision last year barred him from liability in E. Jean Carroll's lawsuit. The three judge panel ruled unanimously on the case and wrote this in their ruling, quote, the record in this case supports the district court's determination that the, quote, degree of reprehensibility of Mr. Trump's conduct was remarkably high, perhaps unprecedented. Given the unique and egregious facts of this case, we conclude that the punitive damages award did not exceed the bounds of reasonableness. We'll stay on top of that story. Just ahead for us, a different court, the United States Supreme Court, possibly giving Donald Trump just what he needs to start what he called a war with some American cities. The next hour of deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [47:28]
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