← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“We’re not in Kansas anymore”
01:26:03
Nicolle Wallace on Governor Newsom slamming Trump in a major address, Trump’s politicization of the military, and Trump's weaponization of the Justice Department against his perceived enemies. Joined by: Jacob Soboroff, Sen. Tim Kaine, Steve Anderson, Mara Gay, Justin Wolfers, Tom Nichols, Paul Rieckhoff, Eddie Glaude, and Marc Elias.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
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Nicole Wallace
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- [01:09]
Jacob Soboroff
Hi there, everybody. It's 4 o' clock in New York. As protests spread across our country. We begin today with a sober warning from the governor of the state of California. That is, of course, the state at the epicenter of both Donald Trump's immigration crackdown and his efforts to use the United States military inside the United States and to potentially use it against Americans. In a speech last night, Governor Gavin Newsom accused Donald Trump of taking the nation to the brink by escalating a situation that state and local officials could have handled.
- [01:44]
Nicole Wallace
This brazen abuse of power by a sitting president inflamed a combustible situation, putting our people, our officers, and even our National Guard at risk. That's when the downward spiral began. He doubled down on his dangerous National Guard deployment by fanning the flames even harder. And the president. He did it on purpose. As the news spread throughout la, anxiety for family and friends ramped up. Protests started again. By night, several dozen lawbreakers became violent and destructive. They vandalized property. They tried to assault police officers. Many of you have seen the video clips of cars burning on cable news. If you incite violence, I want to be clear about this. If you incite violence or destroy our communities, you're going to be held to account. That kind of criminal behavior will not be tolerated. Full stop. The situation was winding down and was concentrated in just a few square blocks downtown. With that, that's not what Donald Trump wanted. He again chose escalation. He chose more force. He chose theatrics over public safety. He federalized another 2,000 Guard members. He deployed more than 700 active U.S. marines. These are the men and women trained for foreign combat, not domestic law enforcement. We honor their service. We honor their bravery. But we do not want our streets militarized by our own armed forces. Not in la, not in California, not anywhere. Trump and his loyalists, they thrive on division because it allows them to take more power and exert even more control. And by the way, Trump, he's not opposed to lawlessness and violence as long as it serves him. What more evidence do we need than January 6th? Look, this isn't just about protests here in Los Angeles. When Donald Trump sought blanket authority to commandeer the National Guard, he made that order apply to every state in this nation. This is about all of us. This is about you. California may be first, but it clearly will not end here. Other states are next. Democracy is next. Democracy is under assault before our eyes. This moment we have feared has arrived.
- [04:08]
Jacob Soboroff
As Governor Newsom spoke, protests spread across our country. From New York City to Denver to Milwaukee. At least 25 rallies took place in major cities. More protests are taking place today ahead of large crowds expected to come out on Saturday when Donald Trump is holding a military parade in Washington, D.C. in Los Angeles, 700 Marines have been mobilized and are in the area now. Meanwhile, armed National Guardsmen have been aiding ICE agents in immigration raids across the Los Angeles area and beyond, including in California's agricultural and farming communities. The Los Angeles Times reports. This alarm spread through California agricultural centers Tuesday as panicked workers reported that federal immigration authorities who had largely refrained from major enforcement action in farming communities in the first months of the Trump administration. NBC's Jacob Soborough is out in Ventura County, California, site of one of the raids that took place on Tuesday. Jacob, take me inside. Everything happening on the ground there.
- [05:15]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole. This is the latest location that the Trump administration has deployed ICE agents in a foreign and in a fashion that heretofore we haven't seen, as you mentioned, during this administration, and certainly not on a wide scale during Republican or Democratic administrations for many decades. This is Ventura County. In Ventura county, one of the hearts of California's agricultural economy, which, by the way, is part of the economic engine of the United States of America. This is a multi billion dollar industry in the fourth largest economy in the world. The state of California is Ventura has thousands of farms just like this one and tens of thousands of workers who work on these farms. And yesterday, as video started coming in of ICE chasing after workers in fields like this, just like in Los Angeles, to the West. It has struck fear into the hearts of the workers of this community. And the idea that this would be some kind of national security threat or this would be some kind of clear and present danger to the people of California. Take a look for yourself. You know what's happening out here right now, Nicole? There are strawberries sitting behind me that are going unpicked. And it's reminiscent, as you look at some of the video of the raids here in Ventura county yesterday, of what happened in Alabama back in 2012, when a restricted immigration law was put into place back then and it decimated the agricultural economy. Things are dying literally on the vine. Maybe JB can give you a look. Take a look. I can smell the strawberries from where I'm standing right now. There are a couple of workers out in this field, but really all you see is fruit that is going unpicked. And so what ultimately will end up happening, Nicole, is in a couple of weeks, if not a couple of months, if not weeks, you're going to start to feel the impact on the economy, not just of California, but across the country. The food supply of this state and of people across the nation will start to be impacted. And most importantly, Nicole, the workers who are at the heart, the beating heart of California's economy are not going to be showing up to work. And obviously, the consequences of that are very clear to everybody.
- [07:26]
Jacob Soboroff
Jacob, I worked in California state politics at the beginning of my career, and the people who own that land behind you are powerful political forces in their own right. Where are they today?
- [07:39]
Nicole Wallace
I can tell you that people in this community are incensed. The mayor of Oxnard, California, a city here in Ventura county, spoke out along with the police chief of Oxnard. They represent those business owners that you're talking about, and I'm paraphrasing here, but essentially the mayor of Oxnard said not only does this put our citizens in danger, in jeopardy, scares people from cooperating with law enforcement, but obviously this is detrimental, if not devastating to the economy of this part of California. The idea that this is happening here, of all places, you know, does this look like a dangerous location to you? Does it look like there are violent criminals walking out in the fields behind me? This is a. This is a change, and this is a change that's going to affect dramatically not only the food product, as I said, and this is the message that they're sending that goes out across the country. You think by the end of the summer, by the way, when this impact is being felt, as we get into the fall, Thanksgiving, Season the produce that comes from here, the vegetables that come from here, the nuts that come from California. And we're talking about billions of dollars of products, produce, and also tens of thousands of people. And virtually overnight, things are going to change out here. And like I said, it is something that the agricultural community here has been fearing for a very long time. And I think a lot of people thought this was not going to happen, but here we are.
- [09:06]
Jacob Soboroff
I mean, to your point, this is where there is scant public support. Pew Research, which last asked the question of the public in March. Only 15% of Americans support deporting undocumented immigrants who have a job. 14% of Americans support deporting people who are parents of children that were born here. 9% support deporting people who came to our country as immigrants. And only 5% of all Americans support deporting someone married to a US citizen. I imagine that the people who work there are behind you, but they're definitely all in the first category. They have a job. So 85% of all Americans oppose deporting people like the workers if they happen to be illegal, who work in the fields behind you. Are you seeing evidence of that public opposition to deporting these folks?
- [10:03]
Nicole Wallace
Oh, of course. There were rallies on the streets here in Ventura county yesterday immediately after this happened, and several different coalitions swung into immediate action. I can't quite communicate strongly enough how unusual it is to see what I saw in the drive up here. I saw the same CBP Black Hawk chopper, Aaron Marine, that that has been flying around downtown Los Angeles. We confirmed this, looking at flight tracking software flying around these fields. A Black Hawk chopper that normally is down on the border watching for people that are crossing in an unauthorized fashion, looking for cartel activity on both sides of the border, is flying over Strawberry Fields in Ventura County. I think I'm just going to leave it at that. I mean, you know, you make your own judgment about what that means and whether or not it's necessary, but that's what's happening at this hour in Ventura County, California.
- [10:59]
Jacob Soboroff
Jacob, you know the drill. We're up for another 1 hour and 50 minutes. Just wave your arms and we'll bring you back into any part of our coverage today.
- [11:09]
Nicole Wallace
Thanks, Nicole.
- [11:10]
Jacob Soboroff
Joining our coverage, Virginia Democratic senator, member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Senator Tim Kaine is here. Senator, what is happening in terms of oversight of this nearly unprecedented and historic use of a president over the wishes of a state governor, activating that state's National Guard and then immobilizing 700 active duty Marines.
- [11:39]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole, this is hugely problematic. I think it's illegal, unprecedented, and I think it is a very dangerous priority. And I expressed that position, that position in an Armed Services Committee hearing yesterday. The National Guard, let's start there. This is a partnership that goes back centuries between the president and governors and guardsmen and women. And the Guard is a partnership between presidents and governors. It's not a battering ram to be used against states. The Guard gets deployed when a governor asks for it, or sometimes the president will ask the governor to loan troops to an endeavor. I did that when I was governor of Virginia. I lent Virginia Guard members to assist President George W. Bush on border operations. But it's a cooperative arrangement, a partnership, not a tool and not a bludgeon. The president's use of it is escalatory. It was. It was not asked for, in fact, objected to by the governor of California. California and the mayor. My friends in Los Angeles that I've reached out to, I said, are these protests generally peaceful with a few bad apples, or are they too violent and out of control? And they all came back and said, generally peaceful, a few bad apples. That's what local law enforcement is for. And frankly, if the president thought that the federal agents needed some more assistance, he could have sent federal law enforcement, marshals, FBI, dea. The choice to not do that, but instead flood the zone with Marines and National Guard is to intimidate protests that Donald Trump does not like. He's using this for political ends and to distract people's attention. We're writing the defense bill right now, and you can be sure that my colleagues and I will be offering proposals to dramatically limit the ability of a president to use the military like his own palace guard in the way that President Trump is doing now.
- [13:40]
Jacob Soboroff
It strikes me that General John Kelly, Donald Trump's former chief of staff, took the extraordinary step for a general and a former chief of staff of going on the record in a recorded interview and warning the country of just this, of what Donald Trump might do to active duty military in terms of deployments on the streets of American cities. We are on the other side of that hinge point that has already happened. But you represent a state that could very well have protests over the weekend. What are you. What have you learned from the last 48 hours in California that you can apply this weekend in Virginia?
- [14:20]
Nicole Wallace
Well, there will be peaceful protests in Virginia this weekend. There's sort of a no Kings Day set of events all around the country on June 14. And there will be a number of Virginia cities where There will be peaceful protests. Look, the First Amendment to the Constitution, which a Virginian, James Madison, drafted, says that Americans are guaranteed the right to peacefully assemble and petition government for redress of grievances. That was put in the Constitution, not just to protect individuals. It was put in there because there was a belief that candid and robust discussion of views, even dissenting views, would help American democracy function better. So the first thing I'm saying to all Virginians and all Americans is Donald Trump, through use of the military, may be trying to frighten you away from using your First Amendment rights. Don't let it work. We're coming up on the 250th anniversary of American democracy in 2026. And we need brave, patriotic Americans who will not just embrace, but will act upon their constitutional rights, peacefully assemble and petition government to fix what's going wrong. And under this administration, an awful lot is going wrong with the economy, with mistreatment of all kinds of people, and with using the military in this way. So I'm encouraging people to be active, be peaceful, but be active. We need brave people, patriots to be active right now.
- [15:47]
Jacob Soboroff
Will you join the protests on Saturday?
- [15:50]
Nicole Wallace
I am likely to be at one of the many events in Virginia, but I have many to choose from, so I will not be able to be at all of them.
- [15:58]
Jacob Soboroff
What are your private conversations with your fellow Democrats about how to make this a bipartisan group that is both concerned about and protective of the men and women of the military who seem to increasingly be political pawns at the disposal of Donald Trump without any sort of checks on his power. We know that Mark Milley and Mark Esper stopped Trump from doing this at Stephen Miller's suggestion during the protests in 2020. I want to play you, Mark Esper, talking about why that was a bad idea then.
- [16:36]
Nicole Wallace
The option to use active duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now.
- [16:50]
Jacob Soboroff
So publicly, and we know from many books and articles that have been written, Mark Esper, Mark Milley and others push back against people like Stephen Miller in 2020 to slow this down. It doesn't appear from the outside that there are many guardrails against Donald Trump using the military this time. And I wonder if there's an effort to, to gather a bipartisan coalition in the Senate to do just that.
- [17:15]
Nicole Wallace
Nicole, the opportunity we're going to have to do that is the defense bill that we are writing right now. We will likely finish work on the defense bill in the Senate Armed Services Committee in early July. So we're in the run up to it and we will be offering amendments that everybody on the committee will have to vote for to try to put curbs in place so that the president cannot just willy nilly deploy US Military against civilian protesters. I know some of my colleagues are concerned. Those concerns are mostly expressed privately. I was interested to see that. Senator Rand Paul yesterday, when asked about the parade this weekend, said, this looks like something you'd see in North Korea, not the United States. So there are some who are willing to speak out, even those who are generally supportive of President Trump. But look, you don't want to put the military to this. People don't join the military. One of my kids is a Marine. People don't join the military to face off against fellow Americans who are exercising their First Amendment rights to protest. That's not why they join. And can you imagine the heartache that would be involved in any situation where there's an escalation of violence and you end up with a situation like at Kent State or something, something like that from 1970 where Americans are badly wounded or even killed because of an unnecessary military escalation. This is also the kind of thing that our adversaries just watch us and they rub their hands with glee when they see Americans pitted against Americans instead of the American military effectively used in tandem with allies to check their overreach that they celebrate big time. Let's link arms as a country. Let's link arms with our allies and face off against our real adversaries. Let's not turn fellow Americans into adversaries.
- [19:05]
Jacob Soboroff
Senator Tim Kaine, thank you for joining us. Stay, stay in touch as you hear things from Virginia about this weekend. Thank you very much, sir. When we come back, the danger of misusing the United States military, abusing troops to help with immigration enforcement, that does to America's standing in the world. Plus, Donald Trump with great fanfare today announcing what he is calling a quote, great deal with China. We'll tell you why that's just something he's saying at this point and may be part of a series of misleading statements he's made about his so called negotiating prowess when it comes to his manufactured global trade war. And later in the broadcast, a look at how the President of the United States is working overtime on the theatrical side of the House to showcase his role as commander in chief. We'll bring you all those stories and more when DEADLINE White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
- [20:07]
Nicole Wallace
Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders. I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zack Stafford. And we are the hosts of a podcast called Vibe Check. On Vibe Check, we talk about everything. News, culture and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right, we talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface. Yes, indeed, and it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts. Building a business may feel like a big jump, but Ondeck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, Ondeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtic bank on Deck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans an amount subject to lender approval.
- [21:16]
Jacob Soboroff
We all belong outside.
- [21:18]
Nicole Wallace
We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the.
- [21:21]
Jacob Soboroff
Ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes.
- [21:26]
Nicole Wallace
All of our lives, well, better.
- [21:28]
Jacob Soboroff
Despite all this, we often go about.
- [21:30]
Nicole Wallace
Our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize.
- [21:35]
Jacob Soboroff
With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation.
- [21:42]
Nicole Wallace
Download the free app today.
- [21:49]
Jacob Soboroff
Joining our coverage, retired U.S. army Brigadier General Steve Anderson. And here at the table with me, New York Times editorial board member, MSNBC political analyst Mara Gay. General Anderson, take me inside your thoughts at this moment as Donald Trump in an Oval Office press avail yesterday promised that people that come out will be met with, quote, force this coming weekend.
- [22:14]
Nicole Wallace
Well, it shows that Donald Trump Nicole, considers the military a prop, something to politicize, something to use to achieve his objectives politically. And it just sickens me to see this happen. I mean, when you look at what's going on out there, first of all, it's illegal and been articulated much more, much better than myself by Tim Kaine and Gavin Newsom and others. But it's also going to be ineffective because these soldiers are not trained to do this mission. It's very difficult to coordinate with all these different agencies. And there's a tremendous cost associated with trying to bring this happen. And as Tim Kaine, I think very rightfully pointed out, there is the danger of an escalation to a Kent State type moment with untrained soldiers that perhaps aren't used to dealing with this kind of thing. So, I mean, when you think about $134 million being expended for 60 days over there, think of what we can do with that money. I mean, Donald Trump already took a billion dollars from military construction to use on the southern border. If you think about what is not happening in our military because he considers it to be part of his piggy bank and something that he can exploit for his political gain.
- [23:33]
Jacob Soboroff
General Anderson, former senior military official, explained to me why that is such a volatile dynamic and why the comparisons to Kent State that all of the training that goes into being a Marine is about being wired and people are predisposed. I understand, but being wired to respond with force against a threat against your life. Just explain how combustible that is inside an ICE operation.
- [24:02]
Nicole Wallace
Well, absolutely, Nicole. Well, of course, the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines are trained to fight our nation's wars. I mean, that's what they do. They're trained to deal with our adversaries, to fight and win overseas wars against foreign adversaries. So they're trained to kill. I mean, and so it's very difficult for them to say, oh, okay, not so fast, we're not going to do this in this situation. And there could be a terrible situation in which a soldier or a Marine gets confused, gets scared, gets intimidated, whatever, and makes a terrible mistake. And that would set back the military civilian relationships perhaps 20 years. I mean, Kent State is a terrible thing. You're not old enough perhaps to remember it, but I do. And it absolutely decimated our military and it pretty much brought this country to its knees for a few days. We cannot let this happen. And unfortunately, Donald Trump is fanning the flames and making this happen. He's enabling this potentiality to happen because of his inappropriate use in the military.
- [25:12]
Jacob Soboroff
What do you say to men and women of the military who are under. No, you know, it's insubordination. Donald Trump also has the title of Commander in Chief. What is it like right now for, for active duty military in our country?
- [25:27]
Nicole Wallace
Well, Tim Kaine hit it very, very well. I mean, it's a terrible morale degradation. These soldiers and Marines did not sign up to stand down civilians in American cities. They signed up to train to make themselves better, to grow their families and to deal with our foreign adversaries. And we have the most lethal military in the world because of it. This is a major distraction, and it's a tremendous morale issue to them. They don't like to do what they're being asked to do. They know that. It's confusing. They're getting handed cards to say, this is your mission. It's insane. The military and the deployment of the National Guard is a last resort, not a first resort. Unfortunately. This president wants to do this. He wants to fan the flames of insurrection. And I think ultimately he's looking for an excuse to declare the Insurrection. Insurrection Act. And when that happens, Katie, bar the door, because we're in. We're in deep, deep, you know, trouble, if that, in fact happens. And I think that's exactly where Donald Trump wants to take. Wants to take us.
- [26:41]
Jacob Soboroff
Just play that thread forward for us, because I think there is some public disapproval of the brink that Governor Gavin Newsom talked about. The Quinnipiac poll has Donald Trump's approval rating at its lowest point.
- [26:57]
Nicole Wallace
Well, you gotta remember there's an awful lot of people that love what Donald Trump is doing. Okay? I mean, that's just how it is.
- [27:03]
Jacob Soboroff
Sure, they're in the 38%, but in terms of doing things like launching and carrying out an unpopular trade war with America's largest trading partners, in terms of reshaping America's scientific prowess by expelling foreign students, if you're at 38%, you can't do the other things on your wish list, can you?
- [27:27]
Nicole Wallace
I wouldn't. I would hope not. But unfortunately, he's got this block, and it just seems like no matter what he does or doesn't do, they seem to ignore it or support it. You know, I mean, you know, he came into the office saying he was going to reduce prices for Americans. That has happened. Is there an outcry against that? Probably there really isn't. I mean, we could go on and on with all the promises he's made that he hasn't kept. The fact of the matter is that when he goes into a blue state and deploys the National Guard to take out illegal immigrants, there's an awful lot of Americans, unfortunately, that are cheering on the sidelines.
- [28:06]
Jacob Soboroff
Let me just keep the numbers just so we don't get psyched out about the size of things. I know Trump loves it when we do, but this is the actual size of the number of Americans who support deporting people with a job. Just 15% of our fellow Americans. So that means about 35% of Trump voters don't support that. 14% of Americans support deporting people who are parents of children that were born here. 9% support deporting people who came here as children. And only 5% of all Americans, which means 45% of Trump's own base opposes deporting people married to a U.S. citizen. Yeah, I mean, I think the entire immigration issue has kind of gotten away from both parties and just America in general. I am starting to wonder how much of an issue in last year's election immigration was as simply a proxy for anger over the economy. Americans clearly are suffering not just with inflation, but with a housing crisis. You have adult children who aren't doing.
- [29:10]
Nicole Wallace
As well as their parents.
- [29:11]
Jacob Soboroff
There are, there's a lot of anger about the consolidation of capital, about billionaires.
- [29:16]
Nicole Wallace
So you think about that kind of.
- [29:18]
Jacob Soboroff
Populism and how Donald Trump was able to channel it into an anti immigrant rhetoric. And so I think through that lens, we did see people voting on immigration in a way. But I think the reality now of.
- [29:33]
Nicole Wallace
First of all, this is terrible for the economy.
- [29:35]
Jacob Soboroff
So even putting aside the humanitarian aspect of this, you know, now he said, yes, I'm going to go after people who are criminals, but he's going after wide communities here. And I think now that we're seeing that playing out, there are Americans in those communities, citizens, people across the country who are starting to have second thoughts. I mean, now that we're seeing, you know, children from there, including people, I mean.
- [30:03]
Nicole Wallace
Right.
- [30:04]
Jacob Soboroff
So the reality is actually quite devastating. And so I do think we're starting to see public sentiment shift because this isn't just about immigration. It's also obvious, of course, that Donald.
- [30:16]
Nicole Wallace
Trump is using immigration as an excuse.
- [30:19]
Jacob Soboroff
To strengthen his own powers and test the Constitution. And we see that with his deployment of the military. So you've got to have Americans out there who are thinking, well, today it's immigrants. Well, tomorrow it could be me or my kid who's out in the street protesting because they're at college, or they just feel like it's their constitutional right to do so as it is. And they're devastated by what's happening to their country. Are they going to be harmed by a member of their own military? I mean, what is happening here? So let me, let me, I have very mixed feelings about showing this to both of you. It is news, but it is is news from the Trump administration. It's a post from the Department of Homeland Security that they put on X advertising a tip line with a poster that reads, quote, help your country and yourself report all foreign invaders this is your taxpayer dollars regardless of who you voted for. If you pay taxes, your taxes are paying for. This ad being disseminated on Elon Musk's Platform X that says, quote, help your country and yourself report all foreign invaders. General, did Vladimir Putin write that?
- [31:40]
Nicole Wallace
He might very well have. I'll tell you, one foreign invader we could deal with is Elon Musk. But having said that, I mean, it's just absurd that we would that America's and our strength in our democracy is our ability to take so many different cultures and so many different religions and make something great. And that's what we've done throughout our entire diversity has been our strength. And when you look at that, it taps into the isolationist impulses of a lot of people, the inner racism and hatreds that a lot of people have unfortunately, and so many of those people have not had the courage to speak up and to stand up for democracy and, and the American way of life. And unfortunately, the Republican Congress might be the greatest offender in this regard. No one in the Senate or the Congress is standing up against our Dear Leader when he tries to use tap into these isolationist impulses and use our military to further his political means.
- [32:52]
Jacob Soboroff
Retired U.S. army Brigadier General Steve Anderson, thank you for being part of our coverage. Mara sticks around for the hour. Coming up for us, the president's quote unquote agreement with China. Our next guest says it's really just like the last non agreement masquerading as one of those deals but repackaged. We'll explain on the other side of a break. Read the fine print. It is a generally good piece of advice for life, but especially helpful today in evaluating a number of major economic developments. For instance, Donald Trump now says he's going about, quote, final approval on what Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick called a handshake for a framework which is like 11 train stops before a deal of a deal with China. But look closer from NBC's reporting. Quote, China will supply rare earth minerals and magnets up front, Trump said in a post on his Truth Social platform. Although he did not clarify the exact terms, Trump also said, quote, we're getting a total of 55% of tariffs. China is getting 10%. Without explaining any further, a White House official told NBC news that the 55% figure is not new as it reflects the 30% tariffs Trump has implemented this year in addition to pre existing duties totaling 25%. On the topic of confusing and misleading claims, Trump today framed a ruling from a federal appeals court as a, quote, great and important win suggesting the court ruled that the United States can use tariffs to protect itself against other countries, when in fact the court's decision was merely an extension of a pause put in place an interim ruling while the case proceeds very likely to the U.S. supreme Court. That's the fine print for you. And finally, the Consumer Price Index data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics today showed inflation broadly held steady in May, which is good news, but celebrating might be premature. Some analysts caution that it is too early to gauge price shock until tariffs really sink in. Joining our conversation, professor of economics and public policy at the University of Michigan, Justin Wolfers is back. Mara is here as well. Justin, take me through whatever it is that the administration is saying has happened with China.
- [35:19]
Nicole Wallace
Well, what they're saying and what the reality is is totally different. Nicole, it's a very funny world. I love coming on your program because I love to teach economics. But it turns out sometimes what I have to do is just read the newspaper and tell the truth out loud. So or actually read the official readouts. And so what happened was Howard Lutnick went to London. Funny place to go, London because it was the last place he failed to negotiate a trade agreement, met with the Chinese after we already have a deal in place with the Chinese, one that they'd struck in Geneva. And at the end of that he announced that they had agreed, he and the Chinese, that they would each go back to their bosses to get sign off that we would now agree that the old agreement was still the new agreement. That's the enormous breakthrough here, by the way. That old agreement that we now agree is our agreement. That old agreement was not in fact an agreement, but it was a pause on tariffs for 90 days. We've seen that trick before combined with a framework for future talks that might lead to an agreement. Nicole, my parents got divorced many years ago. I'm used to this sort of lawyer speak. It doesn't bring back good memories.
- [36:33]
Jacob Soboroff
What is the way that businesses take in all this information and make decisions about hiring and stocking shelves and pricing?
- [36:44]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, this is the truly impossible part of this. We have a reasonable guess that future tariffs between the US and China will be somewhere between zero and 145. But where that will be and on what particular day remains very much an open question. There might be folks out there who are like my mother in law who wants to buy a new washing machine, but she doesn't want to pay the tariffs when they're high, but she's not sure when they'll be low again. And so folks like that are staying out at the market. And that's the sort of thing that could stop an economy. But the thing I really want to emphasize about this. Stop, start on, off, here we go, merry go round. Nature of all of this is for sure we're going to pay the costs of tariffs. The costs are that businesses can't get the inputs they want. My mother in law doesn't have a washing machine and so on. The benefits are meant to be that we build factories based on an expectation that it'll be more profitable in the future. But right now, there's no reason for anyone to believe any tariff announcement is going to last more than a week and a half. So that means we're getting all the costs of tariffs and none of the benefits.
- [37:48]
Jacob Soboroff
What is amazing about bearing witness to the tariffs being announced on Independence Day, being paused when the market crashed, going back on when Trump was called a chicken or whatever he was called first, a coward or taco. Taco. Right. The chronicling of all that does leave your head spinning. But the reality of all that is about Trump as a, as a sort of psychological specimen. And I wonder over time, how does the market bake that in?
- [38:24]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, so it's a really important point that you make there. And the other thing that we've seen through this is diminished expectations and hopes. So on January 20, when he came to power, he thought he was going to get a better deal with China than anything we'd had under Biden. That was the ambition. Then he put the fentanyl tariffs on and some other China specific tariffs. And that then led to an escalation. There was retaliation, counter retaliation. And up and up and up we went. So then they went to Geneva and when they got to Geneva, all that they wanted to do was get things back to where they were on April 1st. So they struck that deal. And then that lasted all of a few days before they started yelling at each other again. A lot like my parents divorce. And so what we got was when they went to London to talk that they wanted to get all the way back to where we were on May 12. No one's talking anymore about getting things good. They're talking about even the Trump administration, they're talking about a set of trading conditions with China that are less bad than the Trump administration had gotten us to just a few weeks ago.
- [39:24]
Jacob Soboroff
Let me, I want to turn back to the other piece of this. I mean, because I think what you just described is how they successfully moved the Overton window. Right. Things were no one Even talks about getting back to where we were on January 10th before Trump was the president who won, we are told, because of the price of eggs. I want to show you the deal piece of that, how that has collapsed and how that has become almost like British comedy in the way they talk in circles. I have to sneak in a quick break. We'll bring Mara in and have that conversation on the other side.
- [39:59]
Nicole Wallace
We thought Japan, India were close.
- [40:02]
Jacob Soboroff
We got this framework from the uk but what else is is. And what else is coming there? Oh, there are so many coming.
- [40:07]
Nicole Wallace
But when you've got Scott Jameson and I spending, you know, 25 hours locked in a room with the Chinese, we're not really doing the other deals. Yes, our teams are moving them forward, but, you know, now we're going to be focused. Starting today, we're going to be focused on other deals. We're going to get them done. We're in good shape with lots of countries, but good shape is good enough for the United States of America. And you're going to see deal after deal. This is going to start coming next week and the week after and the week after. We've got lots of them in the hopper.
- [40:39]
Jacob Soboroff
I mean, maybe that's true, Mara, but this is the guy that promised 90 in 90 days. I think we're at day 63 and there are 0.5. There's a framework with the UK and there's whatever sort of back to whatever the status was with China. There are actually no signed deals. I mean, first of all, deals that were only necessary after the president created.
- [41:02]
Nicole Wallace
This chaos to begin with.
- [41:04]
Jacob Soboroff
But there was so much spin there.
- [41:06]
Nicole Wallace
That I couldn't even.
- [41:07]
Jacob Soboroff
I couldn't even understand what the news was. So there's maybe a deal, an agreement about a deal, and there's going to be more deals to come. There's going to be an awesome. But there's nothing to announce yet. So the question, we thought the deals with Japan and India were close. All we've got basically is a framework from the uk but what else is in what else is coming? Like, not a softball, but a fair question. Lutnik. Oh, there was so many coming. But when you've got Scott Jamison and I spending, you know, 25 hours locked in a room with the Chinese, we're not really doing the other deals. Yes, our teams are moving them forward, but, you know, now we're going to be focused. Starting today, we're going to be focused on other deals. Starting today, we're going to get them done. We're in Good shape with lots of countries, but good shape isn't good enough for the US So I guess my question for Wall street would be, does that inspire confidence for you? Yeah, because that doesn't inspire confidence for me. I mean, there are businesses who are trying to make decisions.
- [42:09]
Nicole Wallace
Do we hire?
- [42:11]
Jacob Soboroff
Do we make an investment potentially that.
- [42:13]
Nicole Wallace
Could help us build something here at home again? Well, they don't have any money to.
- [42:17]
Jacob Soboroff
Do that because now they're paying the cost of tariffs.
- [42:20]
Nicole Wallace
But let's put that aside for a moment.
- [42:22]
Jacob Soboroff
Nobody can make any decisions in the economy because there's chaos. And so, you know, it doesn't take an economist to understand that this kind of chaos is bad for Wall street, bad for the economy, bad for the markets. And I'm actually also curious.
- [42:37]
Nicole Wallace
We don't hear we didn't hear a.
- [42:38]
Jacob Soboroff
Lot about it today from the commerce Secretary, but what the potential impact of these ICE raids, economy and the economic uncertainty, because even though the number of deportations themselves haven't necessarily penetrated deep into the labor market, the fear certainly has among immigrant communities. So it's just infusing the market with just extraordinary amount of uncertainty. And I don't think we've really seen the full effect of that yet. As we know, we haven't seen the full impact of the tariffs yet. I mean, Justin, it's a great question, a great point from Mara. We started the hour with Justin with Jacob Soboroff in the Ventura County Agricultural center, not just of California, but a big swath of the country. What is the likely economic impact of what Jacob reported was basically fruit dying on the vine.
- [43:33]
Nicole Wallace
So one way of thinking about this is in the very long run, there are it shouldn't make much of a difference. Let me explain why. There are some countries that have a lot of people in them. The United States, there are some countries that don't have many people in them, Canada, both of them can turn out to be really successful. So that's in the long run. And the reason for that, in economic terms is any person and immigrants are people is both part of demand and part of supply. And so anyone who preaches doom coming out of this, out of having immigrants is exactly wrong because they're forgetting the demand side of this. Now, in the short run, though, what did we learn from COVID We learned that when you try and pull the plug on a whole economy, in this case, it would be pulling the plug on particular industries, particular regions, just unplugging them and hoping that you can plug it back in and the computer will work. A little bit better doesn't quite work. And so in some sense, think about this as being a little bit like Covid, where we had whole sectors shut down. We then returned everyone back to work and we discovered that everything was a little creakier again coming back. And so that's one of the fears that maybe this is going to trigger inflation much the same way that Covid did, as well as a whole bunch of other unexpected growing pains along the way.
- [44:47]
Jacob Soboroff
Justin, you always make sense of these things for us. Thank you so much for being here. Margaret, thank you for being here for the hour. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Brand new reporting from the New York Times gives us an inside look if you want to go there. And to the messy breakup and efforts at reconciliation between the world's richest man and Donald Trump. The paper reporting that Musk called Donald Trump late Monday, days after he claimed that Trump wouldn't have gotten elected without him. And linking Donald Trump to the sex offender Jeffrey Epstein in a post on X Cut to this morning, the makeup part of the story, Elon struck a different tone. Were told publicly expressing his remorse on social media, even writing this quote, I regret some of my posts about President Donald Trump last week. They went too far, end quote. I'm sure that had nothing to do with his federal contracts. The Times also reports that the makeup dance has been orchestrated by Vice President J.D. vance and White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, who spoke to Musk on Friday, the day after Elon Musk deleted his social media posts suggesting that Donald Trump's name was inside government files about Jeffrey Epstein. It remains to be seen whether this worked and whether he softened his stance on Donald Trump's big beautiful bill, which he didn't think was beautiful at all last week. We'll keep you updated on the state of their relationship coming up next for us. From Los angeles to Washington, D.C. donald Trump is trying to trying to remake the United States military into a tool of his own power. We'll talk about it after a quick break.
- [46:44]
Nicole Wallace
Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders. I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zach Stafford. And we are the hosts of a podcast called Vibe Check. On Vibe Check, we talk about everything, news, culture and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right. We talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface. Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say. So join our group chat come to life. Follow and listen to Vibe. Check wherever you get your podcasts. Building a business may feel like a big jump, but on deck small business loans can help keep you afloat. With lines of credit up to $100,000 and term loans up to $250,000, OnDeck lets you choose the loan that's right for your business. As a top rated online small business lender, OnDeck's team of loan advisors can help you find the right business loan to fit your needs. Visit ondeck.com for more information. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondeck or Celtibank. Ondeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender.
- [47:51]
Jacob Soboroff
Approval we all belong outside.
- [47:55]
Nicole Wallace
We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the.
- [47:58]
Jacob Soboroff
Ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better.
- [48:05]
Nicole Wallace
Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it, but the outdoors is closer than we realize.
- [48:12]
Jacob Soboroff
With Alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today.
- [48:28]
Nicole Wallace
We don't take an oath to a king or queen, or a tyrant or a dictator, and we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator. We don't take an oath to an individual. We take an oath to the Constitution. And we take an oath to the idea that it's America and we're willing to die to protect it.
- [48:50]
Jacob Soboroff
Hi again everyone. It's now five o'clock in New York. Never before has the United States military been used in the world way it has been by the current Commander in Chief. Donald Trump has blatantly ignored the military's apolitical history and mandate and decided to put the men and women who serve our country in an untenable position. Take yesterday when he held a campaign style rally at a military base. Speaking at Fort Bragg in front of uniformed troops, he railed against his perceived political enemies. About yesterday's event, Tom Nichols writes not this in the Atlantic. Quote Trump himself, a convicted felon, does not care about rules and laws. But active duty military members are not allowed to attend political rallies in uniform. They are not allowed to express partisan views while on duty or to show disrespect for American elected officials. Trump may not know those rules and regulations, but the officers who lead these men and women know them well. It is part of their oath, their credo, their identity as officers. To remain apart from such displays, young soldiers will make mistakes. But if senior officers remain silent, what lesson will those young men and women take from what happened today? Meanwhile, Donald Trump is putting the military in another tough position with his deployment of troops in Los Angeles to quell the relatively manageable protests happening there over Donald Trump's ICE raids. As the New York Times reports, the timing of the troops in L A with Trump's upcoming military parade this Saturday are manifesting a political maelstrom. While tanks, armored troop carriers and artillery systems pour into Washington for the Army's 250th birthday celebration, National Guard troops from the Army's 79th Infantry Brigade Combat Team, supplemented by active duty Marines, have been deployed to the streets of Los Angeles. Several current and former army officials said the military parade and other festivities on Saturday, which is also President Trump's 79th birthday, could make it appear as if the military is celebrating a crackdown on Americans. Max Rose, a former army veteran and Democratic congressman, told the Times. The two scenes combined erode trust in the military at a time when the military should be a symbol of national unity. That is where we start the hour. Some of our favorite reporters and friends, staff writer at the Atlantic and a contributor to the Atlantic Daily Newsletter Tom Nichols is here with me at the table, host of the Independent Americans podcast, founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff is here. Tom, every word, every paragraph of your piece made the hair on the back of my neck stand up with unease and anxiety. Just first, take me through how far we are from normal.
- [51:50]
Nicole Wallace
We're not in Kansas anymore. I mean, we are way far away from any of the most cherished traditions of American civil military relations. Not just from the days of General Washington, but General Marshall Eisenhower. Men and women who understood that one of the great treasures of the American system is the incredible civil military stability that we've been blessed with because we have a military that swears an oath to the Constitution and stays out of partisan politics. And Donald Trump is trying very hard to change that. He is doing. He's pulling every string he can think of to turn the United States military into his personal box of toy soldiers to be used for his amusement whenever he feels like it.
- [52:39]
Jacob Soboroff
Tom, we came in with what's now a pretty well known address from former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Mark Milley, talking about how we do not swear an oath to a king. Donald Trump seems hell bent on changing at least the perception of that reality. Just how dramatic of a change to the fabric of that relationship between the non military and the men and women of Active duty military is. Is Trump's damage seeping in?
- [53:11]
Nicole Wallace
Well, just think about how far we've come by doing that thought experiment that I think Trump always leads us to, which is try to imagine any other president doing this and what the reaction would have been. For most people in America, it is amazing and disheartening how much Trump, I think, his own party and millions of Americans treat Trump as kind of an unruly child who just kind of does the things he does. And people kind of shrug and they say, what can you do? But if an actual adult president had done this, there would be immense outrage. Imagine Barack Obama standing in an Air Force base or an army base and talking about what a SAP John McCain is. Imagine George W. Bush standing on that aircraft carrier and saying, and by the way, my enemies are a bunch of haters and the media is all fucking fake news. And, you know, I mean, it's just. It's a thought experiment that is not only inconceivable, but it reminds you of just how far we've gone and how much this country really sort of indulges this kind of obscene behavior from Donald Trump. So we have really gone so far over the line that we don't. I think we don't even realize how far we've gone because we've just normalized it and accept. Or millions of people have normal, normalized it and accepted it. But, you know, this is. I mean, it is really almost inconceivable to see young soldiers laughing and hooting and jeering at elected officials of the United States, which is what happened yesterday.
- [54:48]
Jacob Soboroff
Yeah. Paul, what are your thoughts watching that.
- [54:52]
Nicole Wallace
The military is kind of wrapped in glass for good reason. Right. And Trump is breaking the glass and he's pulling out the hammer and he's slamming it. And that's what deploying active duty Marines in LA is. This is absolutely uncharted territory. It is the most dangerous course of action, and it is part of the plan. We've talked about this for months. He is on plan. This is what he said he was going to do. This is what we feared and warned he could do, and now he's doing it. And California is not a warmup. It's not a test case. It's the first place. It's where he's starting. And he will have other states like Texas, where Abbott said, come on in, bring in the National Guard. Huckabee Sanders in Arkansas says, come on, bring him in. And you're going to have a Balkanization of America with our military. And Our troops in the crosshairs, where you've got blue states that are going to fight him on it, like Gavin Newsom is trying to do, and red states are going to welcome them in. And our military, our most sacred, cherished, strong, dominant military is in the crosshairs. And of course, our enemies are celebrating. This is the best possible scenario for Vladimir Putin. It's Osama bin Laden's dream to see active duty Marines clashing with American protesters in la. And I fear and worry. It's just a start.
- [56:07]
Jacob Soboroff
What can be done or who can stop it?
- [56:11]
Nicole Wallace
That is the question. That is the most important question in America right now, and I don't have an answer. But every single politician that comes on here and alarm and worries about it, the question for every elected leader is, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to stop it? What levers of power do you have? Because stopping it now is critical, because it's gaining momentum. He does have popular support in some places. He does have some support within the military. And it's going to accelerate. And I think a really critical point that I think Tom and others have cited is the senior military leadership. I know they're speaking out behind closed doors, but this is a time for them to also push the limits and break the glass of speaking to the American people in whatever way they can to try to slow this down and rein it in.
- [56:52]
Jacob Soboroff
Tom, you write about that, but I also, you know, I went back and read from some of the books that revealed from inside the room that Stephen Miller wanted Donald Trump to invoke the Insurrection Act. And it was men like Mark Esper and Mark Milley who told him to shut the f up and that he was being. I mean, there was profanity used, it was heated. And at the end of the day, in that scenario, in that first term, Trump sided with or ceded to his Secretary of Defense and his Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Those men are long gone and so far, not entering into this public debate. You think that's a mistake?
- [57:36]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I'd like to know where General Dan Kaine is. I'd like to know where the Army Chief of Staff is. I'd like to know where the people are supposed to be leaning, the military and the people that are the heirs to George Washington. Where are they? Why aren't they speaking up? And I know, look, I taught military officers for a long time, this question of speaking up and opposing and resigning, it's not as easy as people outside the military think. It is not easy to think about walking in and throwing your stars on the president's desk. And I don't think anybody is counseling that right now. But this silence is appalling. It's embarrassing, it's humiliating for the United States military. And I mean, yes, Trump can, you know, he can fire people and keep going until he finds complacent people. But I still, let me try and say something positive. I still think that there are senior officers in this country. I think 99% of the people in the military, they are not going to sell their heritage, betray the Constitution and, and destroy their careers. For Stephen Miller, I think that these are decent people and they're trying to figure out what to do. But if, you know, and I think Paul's making the same point, if there was ever a time to speak up, it's here now.
- [58:57]
Jacob Soboroff
Let me rewind the tape a little bit and just dig into your point about Sarah Huckabee Sanders and red state governors saying, come on in, what are they ceding? I mean, why would they acknowledge that ICE is unsafe in their states? Because that's the clear connotation. If they need the active duty military in their states, it means they can't protect it. Doesn't make any sense on Earth.
- [59:25]
Nicole Wallace
One, it makes sense if they want to enable his grand plan.
- [59:28]
Jacob Soboroff
Which is what?
- [59:30]
Nicole Wallace
To assess more, to amass more power and to have control of everything in this country.
- [59:35]
Jacob Soboroff
But why would governors want to turn over control of their states to the United States?
- [59:38]
Nicole Wallace
Because they're complicit. I mean, these are people who are on board with the entire plan. I mean, Huckabee's perfect. I mean, imagine if Tommy Tuberville gets elected in Alabama. This is all the pieces that have been put in place so this stuff can start to unfold. Gavin Newsom can try like hell to push back, but I don't know if he could stop him. I mean, he's going to try to sue him and say it's illegal, but he's going to invoke Title 10. He could invoke the Insurrection Act. And I think maybe more importantly, Nicole, there's kind of a failure of imagination in America right now. And we had that same problem before January 6th. And this weekend we've got a military parade happening in Washington. What happens if Trump doesn't want to make them leave after the parade? What if he says, let's just keep them there because I feel unsafe, The Capitol is unsafe. We're worried about protesters. These are the kinds of most dangerous course of action we have to think about as Americans and especially national leaders have to challenge them on not just what's happening now, but what's happening next. Will you promise, do you assure us that those troops are going to leave after the parade? Are you going to find a reason to keep them there?
- [60:35]
Jacob Soboroff
Tom Nichols, what does your sort of spidey sense tell you about this failure of imagination and how it's manifested in a Democratic Party that warned about a lot of these things that is on the right side of history, that has majority public support behind them, but doesn't seem to have a plan even for this weekend?
- [61:00]
Nicole Wallace
You know, I don't. First, let me say that the failure of imagine, and I agree with Paul completely, the whole country is suffering failure of imagination, especially when it comes to the military. But I think that says, again, I'll try and be positive, says something good about America, that we cannot possibly conceive that the military would want to do the completely crackpot and dangerous things that Donald Trump wants to do. I'm glad that we can't just get to imagining that, because people, if you've worked with the military for years, you know, they're not that kind of people. But I think with the Democrats, I think that there is a normalcy bias and a belief that somehow it's the same reason. I think that law firms and universities bent the knee to Trump, not because they're that afraid of him, because, because they really think that just give him shiny things to play with and he'll go away. And that's not the case. I think Paul's point is really well taken. These governors, they're not interested in being governors. They're interested in being regional arms of Donald Trump's power. And that's the problem. I mean, we keep thinking as though these are normal politics. They have every vested interest in saying my state is out of control because not because I can't govern it, but because these foreign invaders are here. And that's why I need the president's help to suppress democracy, suppress dissent, suppress protests in my state. And I'll be kind of a junior partner out here in Texas or Alabama. Look, if Sarah Pahakabee Sanders thinks her state's under siege, she can mobilize the National Guard tomorrow. She doesn't have to wait for Donald Trump. She's the governor. They can all do that. They want to be part of a bigger, I think Paul's right, a bigger plan to centralize power. And in the executive, perhaps the most unconservative thing that former conservatives are now trying to do so I think, you know, people better get past this failure of imagination. And I think the Democrats, when you ask Paul, what can anybody do? Well, I think for one thing, you know, to stand up every day and say this is not normal. This is not going to be allowed. We're not going to have business as usual. It's time to think about what levers of government are available to the people, people who are trying to stop this. But the problem is that the Constitution and Article 2 of the Constitution was not designed to stop a rogue president. The machinery of our government wasn't meant to deal with this.
- [63:33]
Jacob Soboroff
Right. The reporting suggests that Donald Trump hasn't had any conversion in terms of what's really a heartbreaking personal view of the men and women who sacrifice everything our country. The Atlantic I think there was sort of our understanding of Donald Trump before the Atlantic reported that he believed the men and women who died in service of our country were suckers and losers. And there was our understanding of Donald Trump after that story broke. It's almost a fault line in our politics, in our politics in the era of Donald Trump. This is from Military.com about yesterday's political rally. Quote, it was supposed to be a routine appearance, a visit from the commander in chief to rally the train troops, boost morale and celebrate the Army's 250th birthday week. Instead, what unfolded Tuesday at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, bore little resemblance to the customary visit from the president and Defense secretary. Donald Trump unleashed a speech laced with partisan invective, goading jeers from a crowd of soldiers positioned behind his podium, blurring the long standing sacrosanct line between the military and partisan politics. As Trump viciously attacked his perceived political foes, he whipped up boots boos from the gathered troops directed at Gavin Newsom amid the president's controversial move to deploy the National Guard and Marines against protesters in LA as well as former President Joe Biden and the press. The soldiers roared with laughter and applauded Trump's diatribe in shocking and rare public displays of troops taking part in naked political partisanship. That's the political piece. Here's the stagecraft. Internal 82nd Airborne Division communications reviewed by Military.com reveal a tightly orchestrated effort to curate the optics of Trump's visit, including hand picking soldiers for the audience based on political leanings and physical appearance. One unit level message bluntly saying, quote, no fat soldiers. If soldiers have political views that are in opposition to the current administration and they don't want to be in the audience, then they need to Speak with their leadership and get swapped out.
- [65:38]
Nicole Wallace
This is the plan. This has always been the plan. This is the plan that Hegseth has been executing across the military by purging any opposition. And now it's unfolding in a more local level and a more optical level. It's outrageous, it's disgusting, it's grossly un American and it's putting our troops in the worst possible place, which is in the middle of America's politics. Right? 18 year olds are now stuck between probably protesters and ICE. They're being used in campaign rallies. But I think maybe there is another development that's important that you and I have been talking about. A counter narrative in America is developing and it's Gavin Newsom, right? For better or worse. He every day is now doing an address to the nation and to the world that's providing a counter narrative for this entire country. It's what we've been looking for and to see who would rise to the moment. He's been selected by Trump. But the question is, will there be others? Will there be other governors who will do daily addresses to where's Pritzker, where's.
- [66:31]
Jacob Soboroff
Shapiro, where are the other governors?
- [66:32]
Nicole Wallace
And where people like Wes Moore, who's an 82nd Airborne veteran himself, is not far from the Capitol. This is an opportunity for all of them to create a counternarrative to America, to their states and to the world.
- [66:42]
Jacob Soboroff
I'm smiling because it's never you that I have to count on sounding the optimistic note, but I will take it. I would ask both of you to stick around on we're going to keep this going. Also on the other side of a break, Trump is doing something else to politicize the military. He's restoring the names of several military bases to honor the losers, the Confederate side that lost. It's not totally clear that he knows that. We'll make sure he does after the next block and Eddie Glad will join that conversation later in the hour. Our good friend Marco Lias will join us on how Trump is escalating his use of the criminal justice system to target Democrats and other people he perceives as his political opponents and with the pro democracy movement should be doing about it right now. Headland White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. During that speech in Fort Bragg that we've been covering, Donald Trump referred to those peaceful protesters in Los Angeles exercising their First Amendment rights as quote, insurrectionists and during the same address announced a move by his administration that would lift up and honor true insurrectionists, Confederate generals from the Civil War. From the New York Times reporting on that quote, Trump, during a speech at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, said on Tuesday that he would restore the names of all army bases that were named for Confederate generals but were ordered changed by Congress in the waning days of his first administration. His move skirts the law mandating the removal of Confederate symbols from the military through the same maneuver used to restore the name of Fort Bragg, which was briefly renamed Fort Liberty. In a statement, the army said it would, quote, take immediate action to restore the old names of the bases originally honoring Confederates, but the base names would instead honor other American soldiers with similar names and initials. Joining our conversation is Princeton University professor MSNBC contributor Eddie Glad. Tom and Paul are back as well. Tom, I actually want to start with you. Is there any other country on the planet that has made a choice in this year, in this time, to re elevate the losers of any war in its history?
- [69:10]
Nicole Wallace
No. But most other countries are governed by grownups. And what you're really seeing here is that is juvenile. It would almost be more admirable if Trump and Hegseth would just come out and say, look, we're going to, we're going to rename Fort Bragg after the Confederate general because we believe in that. And instead they're playing these games like, well, it's a different guy named Bragg. You know, one thing that occurs to me with this whole game is it shows you that actually how good things in America are. Because if people really were concerned about the price of gas, the price of eggs, the cost of housing and health, the first question they'd ask is, why are you, the President of the United States, spending your time on this inane and childish campaign to rename these things? And it tells you all along that, you know, the recent election wasn't about any of those things. It's about resentment. It's about grievance. It's about people being angry and wanting to stick it to other Americans. That's partly why Trump is doing this and going to these military bases, because he's courting the military. Because if you haven't been in a military environment anytime recently, it is a bubble now. It's Fox News 24 hours a day. It's Internet, it's Newsmax. The military's really shut off. And they believe that a lot of the Trump narrative, that America hates you, that they don't respect your service. And that's part of this, is saying, we're gonna stick it to those people by renaming Fort Bragg, wink, wink, and not because we really care about the Civil War or Confederate generals, but because it's gonna make the people you hate mad. And that tells you what an unserious government this is and what an unserious election we had. That wasn't really about standards of living. It's about this kind of nonsense.
- [71:15]
Jacob Soboroff
But, Tom, square that for me with the fact that the military is the most diverse workforce in our country.
- [71:26]
Nicole Wallace
It is. But when people live on a base and live in a community, and this is something I've been worried about for a long time, people who study civil military relations have been worried about this for a long time. That the citizen soldiers of the United States, like all other Americans, are increasingly segregating themselves. That military bases, just like neighborhoods and parts of cities and other places, are becoming bubbles. And it didn't used to be that way. Military service is becoming a self selecting profession. People are living in the same places. You know, Fort Bragg isn't just Fort Bragg, it's Fort Bragg in North Carolina. And I think that that is really a danger. It's a danger for everybody because America is segregating itself. We are dividing ourselves geographically, but it's a problem of segregating ourselves ideologically in places where it's very easy to cheer on the President because you think, well, you know, the commander in chief might be a little off the rails, but he's fighting for me against these other Americans who hate me. And that's exactly the message Trump is trying to send. And I'm worried that he's succeeding.
- [72:37]
Jacob Soboroff
Eddie, glad we've had a lot of conversations on this topic, and I think you were here the day that Trump, Trump's Department of Defense, purged the history of Jackie Robinson's military service. And when they punished the folks that did that and quickly put it back up, but under a different section, we got a little visibility into where the lines were and how hard they're efforting this separation of the military. Your thoughts on where we find ourselves today?
- [73:11]
Nicole Wallace
You know, I think what Tom just said is very important, but I think to describe it as simply juvenile might not be enough. I think this is ideological. There is a sense in which everything that is woke, that they are, that's captured underneath that description. Everything that is woke is in some ways, is, in some ways, I'm sorry, is in some ways, everything that is woke is everything that is diverse, men, women and the like. And what's normal is white and the like. And so what we see here is, I think, this second lost cause. Nicole, I'm sorry for That a second lost cause, this sense in which the ideology of that this country belongs to a particular set of people and they're acting on it. And I think we need to be clear about what they're trying to do and achieve in acting on it.
- [74:02]
Jacob Soboroff
Paul, what impact does that have on the actual day to day lives of the men and women of the military, which I haven't seen new statistics from the last four months, but remains the most diverse workforce in our country.
- [74:12]
Nicole Wallace
I think maybe most importantly right now, it makes them less popular, makes them less trusted, makes them less respected, and that's what's happening right now. He's driving down the popularity, the trust and the security that America has with its military. And that is most dangerous. Above all. I think we've all been concerned about the civil military divide, really, since we stopped having a draft. I mean, this has been great for the military to have a professionalized military, but it's not great for our democracy when a small group of people continue to serve over and over again. And Trump, in my view, has always been starting his culture war with the Pentagon because it's the easiest to control, because he's their boss, because they have to follow orders and because you can do things like cast a stage, because they have to listen to what their boss said. So you can create a situation where that picture is overwhelmingly male and white. It looks like Trump's America. Right? And all of these attacks on bases, on ships are animating tools in the culture war. That's what it is. He's using them as ways to further that emotion, that agenda, that grievance. And he's starting with the military. That's always been the plan because once you get a hold of the military, it makes everything else easier.
- [75:19]
Jacob Soboroff
You know, Eddie, nothing endangers that bond more than sending active duty Marines into the streets of America, cities and towns. That is also happening today. Your thoughts?
- [75:32]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I think these are connected. You know, Charles Kirk tweeted, you know, mass deportations aren't an option. We are going to take back our country. Who's the we here? And imagine the people who are deployed, the folks from the National Guard, they're members of that community, many of them. Imagine those people who are black and brown women who are being told that the military that they decided to join for whatever reasons, right. Don't really have a place for them. Every time you walk into a building, every time you walk onto a base that's named after a Confederate soldier who actually fought for slavery. Right. Who actually seceded on the basis of a racial ideology that some people in the north in the midstates actually agreed with but didn't agree with. Secession. What does that say about your possession, how you feel, right, about being a member of the military, the most integrated institution in the United States. And so what we have here, I think, is a kind of convergence of these, of a variety of moves that are really tied to this white identity project. Right. Everything identity politics is supposed to be about people of color, supposed to be about lgbtq, supposed to be about all of this other stuff that the liberal radicals want to impose upon people, when in fact, this ideology around whiteness is a form of identity politics that they are pursuing relentlessly. And they're trying to in so many ways, I think, Nicole, deploy the military in defense of it in its execution. And we need to understand that for what it is.
- [77:06]
Jacob Soboroff
I just want to bring one more element into this conversation. The Associated Press has reported since I've been on the air this National Guard troops already have temporarily detained civilians in the Los Angeles protests over immigration raids. The commander in charge said Wednesday they quickly turned them over to law enforcement. Major General Scott Sherman, speaking in an interview with the Associated Press and one other media outlet, also said about 500 of the national Guard troops have been trained so far to accompany agents on immigration operations. Photos of Guard soldiers providing security for the agents have already been circulated by immigration officials. I want to read what they are reporting that entails, quote, several days of training on civil unrest. And those providing security on the raids go through additional instruction. Is that adequate to protect all of the human beings in this heated moment? Tom.
- [78:02]
Nicole Wallace
The military doesn't want this mission. That's the other thing we have to realize. The Marines, you know, people, I think sometimes people watch too many movies and they, you know, they think Marines and they see Jack Nicholson, you know, screaming. And look, the Marines don't want to be. They, they want to fight. They want to fight away games against our enemies and keep this country safe. They don't want to be deployed in Los Angeles. They don't check trained for makes them uncomfortable. And I know this because I've known people who have had to do it. The National Guardsmen are there. They are volunteers who are there to help their fellow citizens. They don't want to be policing their fellow citizens. And Donald Trump has many goals here. One of them is to acclimate the rest of us to just seeing military uniforms in the streets. The other is to get those people over their reluctance as military members to be in the streets and to confront people. But I'm going to say one other thing, Nicole, and I know it's not going to be popular, but if people really want to help, stay away from the Guardsmen, stay away from the Marines. You know, this is confronting the National Guard. If they don't want to be there any more than you want them there, and standing toe to toe with them and, you know, throwing things at them and waving foreign flags in their faces, which is exactly what Donald Trump wants them to do, is stupid and counterproductive. And, you know, it's incumbent on the citizens to look after their military, because this military does not belong to Donald Trump. It belongs to the people of the United States. And we have to look after them and make sure they're not misused. And part of the way we can do that is not to put them in that kind of situation.
- [79:42]
Jacob Soboroff
Tom Nichols, Eddie Glad and Paul Rykoff, thank you for being part of our coverage on this today. When we come back, our good friend Mark Elias will be here. As Donald Trump increasingly turns to the criminal justice system to take on and target the people he perceives to be his political enemies. We'll have that conversation next.
- [80:07]
Nicole Wallace
It's an authoritarian power grab. This president is manufacturing a crisis, claiming that Los Angeles is in, quote, rebellion, which is absurd, in order to test the bounds of his power over the military and more precisely, to use the military as a police force.
- [80:25]
Jacob Soboroff
Congressman and former Marine Jake Auchincloss warning us about what he believes to be the true motivation behind Donald Trump's seeming weaponization and politicization of the military to crack down on dissent. It appears to be just one prong of Trump's authoritarian power grab. In a new piece in Democracy Docket, Mark Elias warns that Trump is increasingly using the Justice Department against his political enemies. Quote, in the short time he has been president, Trump's Department of Justice has arrested a liberal state judge, a Democratic member of Congress and a prominent pro Democratic labor leader. It has reportedly considered charging other Democratic elected officials. Earlier this week, Trump suggested that the Democratic governor of California should be arrested by Trump's border czar. When press Donald Trump said that the governor's, quote, primary crime is running for governor because he's done such a bad job. Trump has a track record of weaponizing the Department of Justice to punish his political opponents. He's already prosecuting other Democratic officials. He is threatening many more by name. He is known to incite violence among his supporters, including violence aimed at his political opponents. Why then is there a lack of outrage over Trump's abuse of power and his increasingly dangerous threats. Joining us now is voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy Docket, Mark Elias. Mark, what is the answer to your last, most pointed question?
- [81:55]
Nicole Wallace
I think that Donald Trump has successfully moved the Overton window in a way that is as dangerous for the future of democracy in this country as anything else. You know, I'm here today not to tell people everything's going to be okay, but to sound a really loud alarm, which is that Donald Trump has turned the Department of Justice into his personal legal task force to go after his political opponents. Think about the norms that have already been violated. Pam Bondi, an election denier put in charge of the Department of Justice. She does. She views herself as part of Team Trump. She hangs out in the Oval Office. She does live shots from the White House. Completely unprecedented. Donald Trump goes goes to the Department of Justice to give speeches in which he attacks lawyers like me and others by name. We have seen the Department of Justice go after his political opponents directly. A Democratic member of Congress in New Jersey that he's reportedly investigating the Attorney Democratic Attorney General of New York. I mentioned in that piece that he arrested a prominent labor leader. He's also indicted a liberal judge in Wisconsin. Also, remember the that his administration sent federal officials into a Democratic congressman's office in New York and put a staffer in handcuffs. This is the playbook by which authoritarians are able to subdue their opposition by investigating them, indicting them, and even if they get acquitted, you know, the damage is done. Why are people staying silent? I think they are afraid. I think that they have normalized this. But, Nicole, it's got to end. People need to take a stand and say, we are not going to allow the misuse of the criminal justice system, the indictment process by Donald Trump.
- [83:47]
Jacob Soboroff
In this way, I want to show you how it's infected the most senior leaders of the Republican Party. This is Mike Johnson on what should happen to Gavin Newsom.
- [83:59]
Nicole Wallace
I'm not going to give you legal analysis on whether Gavin Newsom should be arrested, but he ought to be tarred and feathered, I'll say that. I mean, look, he's standing in the way of the administration.
- [84:13]
Jacob Soboroff
That's the speaker of the House, Republican Congressman Mike Johnson.
- [84:20]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. And I want people to recognize he is second in line to the President of the United States. This is not some backbench Republican saying something irresponsible. This is the person after the vice president who would become president if there was a vacancy. Okay. He is also a professed Christian. He is also A professed constitutional law expert. And here he is saying, number one, he will not say that the. The idea of arresting Gavin Newsom because he is a Democratic politician in New York. I'm sorry, in California. He won't say that that is wrong. He says, I won't opine on that. But then he goes on to say something even worse, which is that, that Gavin Newsom, the Democratically elected governor of California, should be tarred and feathered, which means he should be stripped naked, he should have hot tar burn his body and then be rolled or have feathers thrown at him. Okay? That is what the number two in line to the presidency, a constitutional law expert, a Christian, is saying should happen to the Democratic governor. And is there any outrage, Is there any place in the Republican Party that is saying this is completely out of bounds? Are there any Republicans with the decency to stand up and say, no, we don't do that to Democratic elected officials? No, Mr. President. We don't prosecute our political opponents. No, Speaker Johnson, we don't want violence, violence against democratically elected politicians in this country. No. They all act like they don't know. They act like they haven't heard. They all act like they, you know, they miss. They misunderstood. Or that we're overreacting. I'm telling you, we're not overreacting. This is only five months in. This is going to get much, much worse.
- [86:10]
Jacob Soboroff
I have to sneak in a break, but I want to turn to the escalating language around oppositional speech and dissent and peaceful protests. Mark isn't going anywhere. We'll both be right back. Mark, I want to ask you to broaden your focus to include Donald Trump's memorandum authorizing the military to be on the streets of American cities. Let me read you this from the Brennan Center's analysis unpacking Trump's order authorizing domestic deployment of the U.S. military. Quote, Nothing in the memo limits deployment of the military to city where protesters are now clashing with ICE officers. Indeed, the memo doesn't even mention la. It purports to authorize deployment to protect ICE and other federal personnel performing federal functions, quote, at locations where protests against these functions are occurring or are likely to occur based on current threat assessments and planned operations. In other words, federalized Guard forces could be sent anywhere in the country where protests against ICE are deemed likely. There is no requirement that the protest involve violence, vandalism, or any disruptive or illegal activity, raising First Amendment concerns along with concerns about the use of the military. Indeed, the deployment may occur before any Protest has even happened. This is truly unprecedented. Preemptive nationwide deployment of the military is the very opposite of using the military as a last resort. And it should raise a bright red flag for anyone concerned with the future of American democracy. Democracy, your thoughts?
- [87:50]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, look, what is happening in Los Angeles is well within the capability of the police forces in California to handle. I mean, we have seen the videos. There are sporadic instances of clashes, but nothing on the scale of what we would not expect a major police department with some federal backup to be able to handle. And the fact that Donald Trump nationalized, federalized the National Guard in California was done as a provocative act, to be provocative. The fact that he then deployed Marines was an effort to show that he is an authoritarian. It is not a last resort. It is a first resort for Donald Trump because he wants to be associated with other authoritarians. So are we going to see this in other places in the country? Absolutely, we're going to see this another place in the country. Are we going to see it expanded to include more Marines? Absolutely, we're going to see expanded to include more Marines because Donald Trump wants to be seen in a certain light. That's why he's doing a parade in which he's going to rip up the streets of Washington, D.C. so that on his birthday he can roll Abrams tanks into our nation's capital. It's all symbolic for him. It is all about showing that he is like Vladimir Putin, his friend and idol, like Kim Jong Un in North Korea, who is pen pal. He wants to be seen in that light.
- [89:19]
Jacob Soboroff
An unbelievable moment. Mark Elias, thank you for spending time with us today and thank you for your piece. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Big news to tell you about. A federal judge this hour has ruled that the Trump administration must release the former Columbia graduate student and permanent legal resident. Mahmoud Khalil had ruled that he cannot be deported based on Secretary of State Marco Rubio's determination that his removal was in the country's, quote, foreign policy interest. Kahlil has been detained since March. He's been in a rural Louisiana facility. He was the first person arrested that we know about under Trump's promised crackdown on pro Palestinian protesters. He is one of the few who has remained in custody as his case unfolded, notably missing the birth of his son, who is now more than a month old. The order will not go into effect until Friday morning, giving the Trump administration time to appeal. We'll stay on top of this story. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We're grateful.
- [90:34]
Nicole Wallace
Hey, I'm journalist Sam Sanders. I'm poet Saeed Jones. And I'm producer Zach Stafford. And we are the host of a podcast called Vibecheck. On Vibe Check, we talk about everything. News, culture, and entertainment and how it all feels. That's right. We talk about any and everything on our show, from real life issues like grief to music and movie critiques. And that barely scratches the surface.
- [90:57]
Jacob Soboroff
Us.
- [90:57]
Nicole Wallace
Yes, indeed. And it doesn't stop there. We have got a lot to say, so join our group, chat, come to life, follow and listen to Vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts.