← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“What funding ICE has wrought”
00:42:19
Nicolle Wallace covers the surveillance technology ICE has access to due to its increased federal funding. This technology includes biometric trackers, facial recognition, and military drones, which are all used to track protestors and potential candidates for deportation.
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- [00:00]
Congressman Robert Garcia
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- [00:49]
Nicole Wallace
It's not illegal to record.
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General Derma Mark Hertling
Exactly.
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Ben Terris
Yeah, that's what we're doing.
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Nicole Wallace
Yeah. Why are you taking my information down?
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Congressman Robert Garcia
Because we have a nice little database.
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Nicole Wallace
Oh good.
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Congressman Robert Garcia
And now you're considered a domestic terrorist.
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Nicole Wallace
So we're videotaping you.
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Ben Terris
Are you crazy?
- [01:09]
Nicole Wallace
You heard it from their mouth. You are a domestic terrorist for taking videos. Hi again everybody. It's now five o' clock in New York. In the span of just one year, ice's much publicized and stated targets have gone from, quote, the worst of the worst to American citizens who dare to film their conduct. And these are not idle threats or isolated incidents. They are echoes of a promise made by Tom Homan earlier this month to create a database of those who impede ice, a promise that they are increasingly able to deliver on as ICE has obtained an alarming array of advanced surveillance technology thanks to the massive funding bill passed last summer by Congress. Washington Post examined a DHS annual report and finds this quote, ICE has wasted no time spending its war chest buying new tools ranging from biometric trackers to mobile phone location databases, spyware and drones, while loosening restrictions on how it uses some of these technologies. In recent months, ICE leaders, backed by top Trump administration officials, have asserted the authority to use all available tools to monitor and investigate anti ICE protester networks, including U.S. citizens. Washington Post reports this quote. ICE started using facial recognition technology on the streets over the past year. A new app enables ICE officers to immediately compare phone scans of faces and fingerprints they encounter in the field against databases containing individuals, immigration status and other biographical information. Some US Citizens have reported having their faces checked in real time by ICE or Customs and Border Protection. If all that weren't chilling enough, more audacious enough, more of a police state than we have ever experienced. ICE has also been using military drone technology to monitor the protesters out in the streets in American cities. Quote One compact model purchased by ICE is advertised as being able to detect individuals from 7.5 miles away and identify them from 0.8 miles away. Many models are equipped with night vision and thermal cameras. ICE has been using small drones to monitor some protests over the past year. Its sister agency U.S. customs and Border Protection also flew a much larger military grade MQ9 Predator over anti ICE protests in Los Angeles over the summer. The US Air Force has previously disclosed that it equipped some MQ9 Predators produced by General Atomics with a Gorgon stair system of hundreds of cameras that can track everything that moves across 40 square miles in high definition. It is not surprising, given all that, that the images of interactions between ICE agents and peaceful protesters in Minneapolis look more like something out of a military occupation or a war movie than any legal law enforcement activity on the streets of an American city being carried out against American citizens. New York Times reporters Thomas Gibbons Knapp and David Guttenfelder write this about what they saw and photograph while they were there. Quote Two centuries ago, Nicollet Avenue was a military route connecting St. Anthony Falls to Fort Snelling. Over the weekend it became the stage for a violent confrontation between protesters and the government's military like law enforcement operation in the wake of the killing of Alex Preddy, a 37 year old Minneapolis resident. Nicollet Avenue is quiet now, but the city remains in a defensive crouch, unsure where the next battle will erupt. That is where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. Atlantic staff writer Isaac Stanley Becker joins us from Minneapolis. Also joining us, former acting Assistant Attorney General for National Security at the Department of Justice, Mary McCord. Isaac, you're there. Just tell us what you're seeing and reporting.
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Isaac Stanley Becker
We're standing right now outside of Minneapolis City Hall. It's a tense moment here in the city. Tom Homan, the border czar, gave a press conference this morning in which he pledged that the federal government is not surrendering and really pressed state and local officials to cooperate more closely with the Trump administration and their crackdown here. I spoke yesterday with Governor Tim Walls, who is really just apoplectic about the state of affairs in his state and the, the, you know, unwillingness, seemingly at least thus far, of the federal government to withdraw these forces that state and local leaders say they do not want here and that are making their communities less safe. So it continues to be a really tense situation on the ground, Isaac.
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Nicole Wallace
I mean the militarized sort of manners and tools that ICE has, has been described by protesters who have come face to face with them. But just in terms of covering the city, what is that like to see protesters in an American city being essentially surveilled, tracked and confronted aggressively and violently in two instances fatally by American immigration officers?
- [06:32]
Isaac Stanley Becker
Well, Nicole, here's one comparison that I think is telling. The Minneapolis Police department has about 600 officers and there have been 3,000 ICE agents in addition to other border patrol officers in this state concentrated in the Twin Cities. So it's a, it's a stunning show of force. And that's not even to mention the type of gear and equipment they're using, which again, has been, as you said, perfected in faraway countries on the fields of battle and is now being turned against American citizens. Not just these two individuals who are shot and killed, but we've all seen these stunning images of the dissent on elementary school pickup lines, on individuals homes where there are cries that ring out about children being in the house. So I think it's really terrorizing the citizens of this state.
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Nicole Wallace
Mary, let me ask you about civil liberties. I mean, how is any of this legal?
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Mary McCord
Well, I think a lot of it is not, Nicole. I mean, the clip you showed right at the top of the hour with an agent saying to somebody who was doing nothing, more at least based on what we could tell, than videotaping a federal official doing his job in public, saying that we've got a database on you. You're a domestic terrorist. First of all, First Amendment protected activity is not the basis and cannot be the basis for any valid law enforcement measure or enforcement. Now, violence is not First Amendment protected, but purely videotaping somebody using your cell phone to record someone, a public official doing their job in public is protected and maintaining this database, that would violate the Privacy Act. You cannot. It specifically says no records shall be maintained on the basis of First Amendment protected activity. So there are multiple things wrong what we're seeing, but the use of force and the detention of people and arrest of people for engaging in First Amendment protected activity. It really looks like things that we've seen in other countries, other countries that don't have the kind of First Amendment rights that we do.
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Nicole Wallace
Well, it's the violation of civil liberties and protected speech, absolutely amplified or on steroids from technology. Let me read more of what they're able to do with technology. This is from the Washington Post. License plate readers use high speed cameras to photograph cars and store that data in commercial or government databases. ICE officers can pull up a vehicle's movement history or search for all vehicles in an area over a period of time, narrowing it down by the car's color, make or state of registration. Cell site simulators, also called stingrays, masquerade as cell towers. The devices, often mounted atop vehicles, are used in two ways. If officers already know the identifying number of the target phone, they can use the cell site simulator to look for it. They also can scan for all cell phones in the area. ICE has a deep trove of digital forensic tools that allow it to hack into locked phones and computers, recover deleted files, and read information in encrypted chats. These powerful tools traditionally were limited to the agency's investigations into terrorism, child smuggling, and other serious transnational crimes. But during the second Trump administration, leadership has ordered the shift of investigative resources across the agency toward the deportation drive. Why do you need to hack into people's encrypted chats to find a five year old child? I mean, how inept are they that they need to use these terrorism tools to deport children?
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Mary McCord
I mean, this raises so many issues, right? I mean, there might be appropriate cases where this type of surveillance would be warranted. And even then our Supreme Court, which is woefully behind the times when it comes to examining how technologies can be used to monitor a whole pattern of a person's life. But seven years ago, they said that cell site location data by which you can sort of monitor where someone goes place to place throughout the days and nights and weeks, that that is something that requires a warrant because it's a chief justice, actually, Justice Roberts said, that puts together such a picture of somebody's life that really invades their reasonable expectation of privacy. And that would be a case, that would be the case even when you were trying to investigate a much, much more serious crime. Here, in many cases, we're not even talking about a crime at all, right? We're talking about a person being in this country without having proper documentation, which is not criminal. It doesn't mean they can stay here. They may be removed from here, but it is not criminal. So the level of surveillance and technology that they're using, even if it could be valid in certain cases with certain parameters put around it, there's just nothing that justifies its use. Either find undocumented people, children, or to monitor those people who are engaging in First Amendment protected activity.
- [11:34]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, I think general hurling, it does usher in the question rather urgently, where are the people, Republicans, namely, who were so apoplectic about any visa application that wasn't perfectly executed? And it should have been. It should always be. But the civil liberties of the American people are being trampled upon. And the only reason Republicans aren't shutting down the government is because they perceive the civil liberties of their political opponents as the ones being violated. But I wonder, and let me bring General Hertling in on this. He's joined us. What you make of the kinds of people who've been armed with these tools.
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General Derma Mark Hertling
It seems hauntingly familiar. Nicole, I've just been listening to Mary. She's exactly right. In terms of the privacy and what you said earlier about this is the kind of or these are the kinds of pieces of equipment that you use in terms of haunting terrorist. Some of these things we used in combat when you're talking about cell phone towers and intercepting of terrorist conversations. But you have to have some type of admission that those individuals are the ones you're trying to seek. But the right to privacy. And you just made a comment about the FISA warrants. I'll go even closer to where we sit right now. And it was some of the senators and congressmen who were being called by the President on January 6th and they were concerned and were awarded money for that. And all they were doing was tracking not the data but who was being called. That was the only thing they wanted. These kinds of pieces of equipment are much more technologically advanced than any of that and you can get a whole lot of private and personal data from it.
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Nicole Wallace
Isaac, I'm cognizant of you standing out in the cold and I trust you to wave your arms and tell us if you need to go warm up. But the concerns that the government has articulated to you in the Atlantic are that the violence could produce a national rupture. Explain his worries there on the ground.
- [13:43]
Isaac Stanley Becker
I wanted to just add one point about this surveillance and investigation of some of the people engaged in this lawful protest and work of observation. I think it's important to note that there's a grassroots agitation among the president's MAGA base for this type of surveillance and monitoring and potential criminalization. Today at the Tom Homan press conference there was a question from a right wing influencer who was sort of egging the border czar on to state and to indicate that the federal government was going after these people. So I think that the president and the people around him are responding to political interests and political demands in their base. As for the governor, I think that he has just a really stark warning for the rest of the country about what's happening here. We've all seen these images but his message to me was, you know, for people watching from beyond Minnesota, it's worse than you think. It's even worse than it looks. And not wanting to get alarmist here about historical analogies, but the way he put it to me was, is this Fort Sumter? Is this John Brown? Are we seeing the first warning shots of a kind of national rupture and armed, internal, armed struggle? Now, he said that he believes the restraint of the protesters, of his citizens is what is going to hold us back from that kind of breach. But it was pretty striking language.
- [15:16]
Nicole Wallace
General Hartling. I saw you nodding.
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General Derma Mark Hertling
Yeah. Everything that's being said is absolutely true. I mean, there are the rights of, expectations of privacy, the right that individual citizens who are not violating immigration law will not have their rights trampled upon, and we're seeing exactly the opposite. Having watched Mr. Holman's conference this morning, too, what I was struck by was the fact that, you know, I don't think he got it, what the protests are all about. It's not the fact that immigration officials are trying to enforce immigration law, and it's the way they're doing is the intimidation and the approaches that they're having to normal citizens, even those who are abdicating their right to freedom of speech and their right to protest. But even those are considered part of this roundup, and that is what makes this entire operation very questionable. Mr. Holman didn't seem to address any of that. He just said he was replacing somebody to try and get things right. But even during the press conference, he continued to talk about how they were going to go after people and never said, perhaps not what we're doing, but the way we're doing it is what's causing so much trepidation among the citizens of Minnesota.
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Nicole Wallace
Mary, I guess my thought in covering this story now, every day for almost a month, is that it makes the conduct of the people of Minneapolis, St. Paul and across Minnesota, all of them are extraordinary. I mean, as the reporting catches up with the incredible power, lack of symmetry, the incredible technological advances, the surveillance state that they're living under, the threats to their life, which has been widely publicized by the deaths of two people out there in the streets protesting for their. Their neighbors in their community. Short of dying, there is a lot of risk of ending up in a database, of being surveilled, of being tracked, of being harassed, of being threatened. And all that's happening in broad daylight on camera.
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Mary McCord
It is, and I think it's just an incredible testament to the fortitude of the people in Minneapolis and St. Paul. And you know, you didn't even add to that the frigid sub zero temperatures for weeks now. And people are out. And imagine, I'm sure that there are people are being chilled from engaging in their First Amendment rights. But even with those people, the people who might stay say, I'm staying home because I'm worried about being attacked, assaulted or even killed by ICE or cbp. Even with that threat, look at how many people are out. Look at how many people are helping their neighbors who are opening up warming, warming stations for their neighbors who are taking care of each other. And you know, that's where we're seeing, I think, some of the best of America. And that's the message that needs to resonate to the rest of us. The problem is, as you indicated, I can no longer say as an American that I feel safe going out and protesting because I don't know what the response is going to be, not just from dhs, but also from the Department of Justice and what they might do.
- [18:36]
Nicole Wallace
Right. And it's something that people have talked about throughout history and certainly over the last 15 months, that courage isn't the absence of fear. It's being out there and doing the right thing despite the fear. Isaac, thank you for being here. Despite the cold. Mary McCord and Derma Mark Hertling, thank you for starting us off today. When we come back, we'll put these questions about the militarization of Trump's immigration crackdown to the top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee. Also ahead for us, there are big questions about Donald Trump's health and wellness. And those questions seem to get louder by the day. Well, certainly every time he shuts his eyes and sleeps during his own meetings, or when cameras catch his bruised and made up hands, or when he takes the MOCA test again for us and tells us how he aced it. Later in the hour, the reporter who set out to get answers about all those questions and Trump's health by interviewing Trump and his closest aides will join us. Why that interview with Donald Trump is raising even more questions on this topic than it set out to answer. And as we go to break, a reminder, as we've been discussing, courage from the people on the ground in Minneapolis is very much contagious. Here is the video version of Bruce Springsteen's just released new song. We played some of that song for you yesterday. The video's new. This is Streets of Minneapolis.
- [19:49]
Bruce Springsteen (voice in song)
King, Trump's private army from the dhs.
- [19:54]
Congressman Robert Garcia
Guns belted to their coats, came to.
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Bruce Springsteen (voice in song)
Minneapolis to enforce the law. Or so their story goes against smoke and rubber bullets. In the dawn's early light, citizens stood for justice. Their voices ringing through the night. And there were bloody footprints where mercy should have stood. And two dead left to die on snow filled streets. Alex, Pretty and Renee could try Angel.
- [20:42]
Mary McCord
Soft for your tushy.
- [20:45]
Nicole Wallace
It's made by Angels Soft and Strong. Budget friendly.
- [20:50]
Mary McCord
The choice is simple.
- [20:52]
Nicole Wallace
Pick up a pack today. Angel Soft and Strong.
- [20:57]
Monday.com Announcer
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- [21:13]
Nicole Wallace (Podcast Promo)
Mississippi now presents the chart topping original podcast the Best People with Nicole Wallace. This week she sits down with former policy advisor Susan Rice.
- [21:23]
Nicole Wallace
We are an incredibly resilient country and nobody has ever won over the long term betting against the United States ability to renew and grow the best people.
- [21:33]
Nicole Wallace (Podcast Promo)
With Nicole Wallace Listen now. For early access ad free listening and bonus content, subscribe to Ms. Now premium on Apple Podcasts. He told me that, well, look, Tim, we did this in New Orleans, we did it in Louisville. There's no problems. And I said, you didn't kill anybody in Louisville or New Orleans. And the operation here looks very different from that. And then he told me it was successful in Venezuela.
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Ben Terris
He talked to you about Venezuela? He did.
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Nicole Wallace (Podcast Promo)
He did. I'm not sure what gave him the indication that at this point in time, what's happening to my state that I'm interested in Venezuela, but he told me how well that went, which really was strange to me was he saw an operation in Venezuela against a foreign nation in the same context he saw an operation against a US State and a US City.
- [22:27]
Nicole Wallace
I'm going to bring into our coverage Democratic Congressman Robert Garcia of California. He's the ranking member of the House Oversight Committee. Our panel is still here. Congressman, I feel like because of the breaking news, we go to you on everything and you're often here to talk about the investigation into the Epstein files. But I do want to understand, even Tom Homan said today, if you don't like what you're seeing, go to Congress. What, what is happening behind the scenes to either address the surveillance state that ICE has operationalized against American citizens, something that is an ex Republican Republicans used to care about. We've heard nothing from them. Or the idea that Donald Trump, even in a call with the governor is at least in his own mind placing military operations in Venezuela in the same categories he places how his government acts in an American city.
- [23:23]
Congressman Robert Garcia
It's all horrifying. And let's really think about what's actually happening right now. I think one, first we have this obviously critical, important vote that's going through the Senate right now. We should be incredibly forceful in our demand to ensure that there's actually real reforms that are actually moving forward. Because ICE in their operation, what's happening right now, that just not acceptable to be happening in American streets. And I should not be functioning in the murder and involved in the murder, capture, kidnapping. And in some cases, I believe people are being essentially deprived of food and shelter in these detention centers. And so that, that right there is moving forward that shall concern us as it relates to Tom Holman. I mean, look, let's be really clear. This is not some situation that somehow putting him in charge is going to improve or that we should trust the situation. This is a person that allegedly accepted a $50,000 bribe in a fast food bag to someone that's gone around terrorizing Americans across the country. Someone that also takes orders directly through Stephen Miller and Donald Trump and has caused enormous harm in the kidnapping of over 200 United States citizens, most of whom have no idea why they were put in a detention center on their way out. And so the situation right now in this country as it relates to ICE and to DHS is serious, which is why we're demanding that Kristi Noem be impeached and removed from office. And as it relates broadly to your question, Nicole, about surveillance, I mean, let's remember that Donald Trump has made ICE the single largest law enforcement agency at the federal level, even larger than the FBI and all the other agencies combined. ICE's budget has skyrocketed in a way that's, it's essentially a military force. I mean, the budget of ICE today is now larger than most militaries across the world. And Donald Trump is trying to create his own military police like force on the ground essentially to do as he commands. And we should be very concerned about that.
- [25:33]
Nicole Wallace
I guess my question is the military and the FBI have laws that would limit what they could do to American citizens. ICE has none of those laws. And I am old enough to remember when Republicans lost their, you know what, that there were any efforts to sort of surveil or monitor anyone associated with the Trump campaign's contacts with Russia to see if Russia, wittingly or unwittingly, was meddling in the 2016 election, which they, they were something Marco Rubio and John Durham alike confirmed for the country what do you make of the lack of any sort of legal predicate to surveil? And my understanding from the Washington Post reporting today, is anyone that comes in, any contact of ICE activities, so you could be at a protest, but you could also, as a lot of the people being ripped and having their seatbelts cut out of their cars on the way to doctor's offices or dropping kids off at preschool, a family with six young people in the car was hit with a canister of tear gas. I mean, there's all sorts of other people getting into contact with ICE's surveillance and violence who don't have any intention of being around the protests.
- [26:45]
Congressman Robert Garcia
That's what people need to understand. Exactly your point. Right now, across this country, ICE is collecting data and information. Your information about your family, about your kids, some of whom are just maybe walk into school, maybe if you're at a peaceful protest, they're collecting information about your neighbors, about folks are working in our local small businesses, and it's largely going unchecked with no checks and balances in place. And ISIS now, essentially Donald Trump's own personal military force, local military force that he is using in a way, not just to cause harm and murder United States citizens, but also to essentially spy and survey the American public. And that's why this moment is so concerning, why I also believe that ICE can't be reformed as an agency. We can't make improve ice. Remember, ICE hasn't existed in this country for that long. Pre 9 11, we had. Most of these functions were essentially driven by the immigration service. And we need to get back to a place where our agencies are actually doing work that is humane. And whether it's Tom Homan, whether it's Kristi Noem, whether it's Stephen Miller Bovino, they all have, they all have the same worldview where they view immigrants and people that are different or they're here working hard as less than human, as in some, in some cases, as evil as domestic terrorists, as people that are somehow harming the rest of this country. And so what all what I tell people, particularly our United States citizens across this country right now, ICE is surveying all of us. And all of us should be opposed to what's happening, every single American.
- [28:22]
Nicole Wallace
It's also wildly unpopular. I mean, what the hell is in the Epstein files that he's willing to drive his own approvals down to the low 30s?
- [28:29]
Congressman Robert Garcia
I mean, look, it used to be that immigration was Donald Trump's strongest, strongest issue. And it's where he led in large part, where he won the last election. He is now completely underwater on the issue of immigration. ICE is incredibly unpopular. What he's doing, what ICE is doing on our streets in Minneapolis and elsewhere, he incredibly unpopular for the first time. I'm talking to other more conservative voters, libertarian voters that I've known for a long time that have been supporters of Trump. They finally turned on him. So I'm really hopeful that Republicans in Congress, we get back this week in the House especially, they realize that they've got to, they've got to finally stop bending the knee to whatever Donald Trump wants to and join us in reining in this terror that ICE is imposing on the, on the rest of the country and holding Kristi Noemi accountable. She should be impeached by the U.S. congress. And we've got to ensure that Republicans join us on that.
- [29:24]
Nicole Wallace
Congressman Robert Garcia, thank you for joining us on a big news day once again. When we come back, big questions continue to swirl about Donald Trump's health and wellness and fitness for office. We'll extraordinary new reporting is out today about Donald Trump's health, including an interview with Donald Trump himself. That interview raising even more questions. The reporter who conducted it is our guest. Stay with us.
- [29:51]
Monday.com Announcer
This is a Monday.com ad, the same Monday.com designed for every team. The same Monday.com with built in AI scaling your work from day one. The same Monday.com With a an easy and intuitive setup. Go to Monday.com and try it for free.
- [30:06]
Ben Terris
The US military deployed on the streets.
- [30:08]
Isaac Stanley Becker
Of America, whole communities targeted for removal.
- [30:12]
Nicole Wallace
And when accountability finally came knocking, the burn order to cover it all up.
- [30:17]
Nicole Wallace (Podcast Promo)
Rachel Maddow presents Burn Order. All episodes available now.
- [30:24]
Nicole Wallace
Donald Trump's obsessive insistence in telling all of us that he has, quote, perfect health has only fueled more questions and suspicions about how perfect it could be if he talks about it that much. And it's happening right now, today in this news cycle after Trump freed up his schedule when a New York magazine reporter approached the White House to talk about this topic. Ben Terrace will be our guest in a minute. He writes this, quote. When I arrived at the Oval Office in December, the president was standing next to a couple of men clutching pieces of paper labeled talking points. These are two doctors, Trump told me before I could ask a question. Let's sit for a couple minutes. Trump said, I hate to waste a lot of time on this, but if you're going to write a bad story about my health, I'm going to sue the ass off of New York magazine, end quote. During our interview, according to during the interview, according to reporting, Donald Trump appeared to forget the word. I'm not making this up and neither are they. Alzheimer's. He forgot the word when he wanted to use it in a sentence. While talking about his father, Trump, quote, pointed to his forehead and looked to his press secretary for the word that escaped him. Alzheimer's, Levitt said. And then Trump said, well, I don't have it. There's also the clearest evidence, the things we can see with our own hands, the things we witness when they let us see him, that something might be amiss. The bruising, the constant bruising on Donald Trump's hands. It's often covered with bandages or bad makeup jobs. From the reporting, quote, this is only from shaking hands, Trump said. Trump turned to the doctors, Captain Sean Barbarella, his lead physician, and Colonel James Jones, a physician's assistant with a PhD in health science, quote. Can you just verify that? He said, quote, Absolutely, said Barbarella. I've seen the President shaking hands for over an hour, end quote. Trump held up his non shaking hand. Look, this one's perfect, he said. People say what beautiful skin you have, end quote. No, they don't. Trump also offered bizarre defense for appearing to always fall asleep or to be sleeping during major public moments in his own office, a noble office event, his own briefing in Saudi Arabia with the Crown Prince and again during a meeting with his own cabinet that he convened for that one. Trump said, according to this new story, quote, it's boring as hell. I have to sit back and listen and I move my hand so that people will know I'm listening, I'm hearing every word and I can't wait to get out, end quote. I want to bring in the Washington correspondent for New York magazine, Ben Terras, who's bylined on this extraordinary new reporting. Also joining us, Charlie Sykes, who we're so happy to see, author of the newsletter to the contrary. Ben, take me through what you're reporting.
- [33:19]
Ben Terris
Yeah, I mean, it was a totally wild experience. I set out to do an investigation into Trump's health. It was a question that a lot of people had. Like you said, a lot of bruising, a lot of sleeping. He's had swollen ankles. There's been video of him seeming to limp. So I wanted to know what was going on. And so I set out to write about him. I did not expect to be called into the Oval Office. I did not expect to there to be two doctors from Walter Reed there when I got there. I also did not expect him to be holding papers that said talking points, although maybe I should have. And it was a totally wild experience. I mean, you know, I felt kind of like I was a one person audience for a play that was put on just for me where the president and his doctors, you know, told me that he was basically the healthiest man alive. It was kind of the end result of a series of plays that included members of his cabinet and, you know, inner circle who all told me basically the same thing.
- [34:11]
Nicole Wallace
Well, I mean, I did PR and you don't write talking points and bring in 10 people, two of them in the military, literally, who report to you through the chain of command for a story where you think the facts would present themselves in a way you would like. Let me just go through some of the performances that your investigation elicited. Marco Rubio, quote, this guy is too healthy and too active. Stephen Miller, quote, he can work harder and has a better memory and more stamina and has more energy than a normal mortal. The headline of your story should be the Superhuman President. And let me just juxtapose that with some reporting in Politico yesterday from Slovakia's Prime Minister who told EU leaders at a summit last week that a meeting with Donald Trump left him shocked by the US President's state of mind. Five European diplomats briefed on the conversation said Robert Fico Fico was concerned about the U.S. president's, quote, psychological state. Two of the diplomat said he used the word dangerous to describe how the US President came across during their face to face meeting at Donald Trump's Mar A Lago estate in Florida on January 17th. What is your sense? Has anyone who doesn't work for Donald Trump or have reason to fear Donald Trump's now very much underway retribution campaign attested to his health?
- [35:40]
Ben Terris
You know, when I talk to people outside of his circle, they don't know for sure, Right. That's the thing about Donald Trump is he provides so much evidence of everything. Right. If you watch Donald Trump, you can see him falling asleep in meetings, but then you can also see him doing late night rallies. So is he losing energy or does he have a lot of energy? You see him tweeting at 6 o' clock in the morning or truthing at 6 o' clock in the morning and it looks like a madman. But then he also can make the case, look, I'm up at six o' clock in the morning and I'm already doing my job. And so it's very hard to get to the bottom of actually how healthy he is. He's almost 80 years old. Even a healthy 80 year old isn't the healthiest person in the world. So, you know, he's not telling the complete truth. And, you know, his people are not telling the complete truth. But really what I found is that, you know, the people around him, they feel the need to suck up to him. They feel the need to push back, not just a little bit on his health, but to push back so hard that they're saying crazy things about how he's almost superhuman.
- [36:35]
Nicole Wallace
I'm including this from your reporting. This is in the story. Quote, you worked for the Obamas, didn't you? Levitt said to Col. James Jones, a physician's assistant for Trump. Quote, yes, I did. Quote, who's healthier, Obama or Trump? I asked. Trump stared across the desk, making eye contact with Jones. Jones didn't hesitate. President Trump, he said. Trump nodded. There was no sign of a smile, as if there could not have been any other answer to that question. Write that, he said, turning to me, Charlie Sykes, who's healthier, Barack Obama or Donald Trump?
- [37:09]
Charlie Sykes
Part of this is just the absurdity, the sort of the North Korean style absurdity that he's like healthier than a normal mortal. But the thing about, we've been talking about Donald Trump for some time and the crazy things that come out of his mouth. Look, I am not a doctor, I'm not a diagnostician, so I want to be careful about that. But the entire world is watching the president. They're reading what he's saying at 6am when he's putting out these tweets, you know, and you know, whether a tree is healthy or not by its fruit. And there's a lot of fruity stuff coming out of this. Look, we don't know whether this is, you know, much of his behavior is the result of age, whether it is some sort of dementia, whether it's the abuse of pharmaceuticals. But what is absolutely clear is that what's ever happening is world class crazy. And the entire world is looking at Donald Trump and saying, what's wrong with the President of the United States and what's wrong with the United States that it's not seeing that this guy is behaving in this incredibly erratic manner. So, you know, I can't evaluate what's actually going on inside him. But if you stream together the kinds of things that he's writing that he is saying, you know, and you would attribute that to any other person, you would say, this person needs an intervention. We need to get Uncle Otto, you know, some, some help, because it doesn't make any Sense. And I think that, you know, the trajectory is very obvious. And look, this is something that the entire world needs to be more concerned. This is one of the most important stories right now is the man who is sitting in the Oval Office dispatching aircraft carriers around the world, invading US Cities, threatening war against various countries or the invasion of various countries, is he of sound mind and body? And this is a question that I think we have to address perhaps even more aggressively. And again, I can't comment on what's going on with his hands, but I think that a reasonable person who just listens to this man and watching him has to go, oh, my God, we have a problem here, don't we?
- [39:09]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah. I want to show you more of him in his own words, talking about his own health. No one's going anywhere. We'll all be right back. On the other side, I've been covering Donald Trump for 10 years, and it is still unclear to me why Donald Trump thinks that a screening test to screen for cognitive decline, like frontotemporal dementia and Alzheimer's, is an intellectual flex. But he does, and we know he does, because he talks about acing this screen for dementia all the time. Here's some of it.
- [39:46]
Bruce Springsteen (voice in song)
The next day they'll say, he's crazy. The next day they'll say, oh, he's incompetent. The next day they'll say, this is one of the dumbest human beings ever. And that wasn't working, But I didn't like that one as much. I mean, that was bad. So I asked Dr. Ronnie, I love Doc Ranney, but I said, what do you think about cognitive test, Ronnie? And he said, sir, there is a test. It's called the X test. They're really aptitude tests, I guess, in a certain way, but they're cognitive tests. The first couple of questions are easy. A tiger. An elephant. A giraffe. A giraffe, a tiger. This. A whale. Which one is the whale? A chair, a hat, a badge, a necklace. Then you get to the end questions. And very few people could answer those questions. Person, woman, man, camera, tv. They say, that's amazing. How did you do that? I aced it twice. I aced it. I aced it. I aced it. I aced both of them, I'm very proud to say. Meaning, I got it all right. Aced it. Aced it means I got every single question right. I aced it every question right, and I aced it. I got a perfect mark, which you would be incapable of doing. I'm taking the Cognitive test, I think four times, and I'm done. I've got nothing wrong. That's what the American people want.
- [41:04]
Nicole Wallace
If you know or love someone with Alzheimer's, that breaks your heart, right? Because you know of this test as the screen for your worst nightmare, the worst diagnosis. But if you're Donald Trump, for some reason, all these doctors who say he's perfect, no one has told him what the test really is. And that, to me, is the enduring mystery of the Trump era. Charlie Sykes.
- [41:26]
Charlie Sykes
Yes, and among many mysteries of the Trump era. But, you know, there's a guy who seems to protest a great deal about all of this, and he's the one who keeps bringing this up. And again, whether you're talking about cognitive decline or other kind. Look, there are other kinds of craziness, right? There's other kinds of being a sociopath. There's other ways in which you can become disassociated from reality, morality from the norms of civilized behavior. And Donald Trump seems to be checking a lot of those boxes, but he seems somewhat obsessed about those tests and very, very impressed that he can distinguish a camel from a whale, which, that's great, you know, for the leader of the United States, a man with a finger on the nuclear button. It reassures me deeply that he can tell the difference between a camel and a whale. I feel much better.
- [42:15]
Nicole Wallace
Ben, did you get to the bottom of why he talks about taking this test or why it's been administered, according to Donald Trump, quote, four times?
- [42:22]
Ben Terris
Get to the bottom of it? I'm not sure. He did bring it up with me. He told me I would not be able to pass it. I've never taken it myself, so I can't claim to be able to pass it or be able to ace it. My guess is, and this is just an educated guess, is that he wants something to brag about. Right? And he maybe keeps asking for it. So he can keep saying, I've aced this test, I've aced this test. He gets to bring it up. He gets to prove to his detractors that he is mentally sound. It might have the opposite effect for a lot of people. Is it possible that his doctors keep asking him to take it? He said to me that the doctors didn't want him to take it because if he did take it and didn't do well on it, they might have to, like, I don't know, tell everybody that he didn't do well on it. And so he is claiming that this is just, like, a way to brag about basically getting a 1600 on the.
- [43:10]
Nicole Wallace
SATs, you know, which has nothing to do with the sats. What are the bruises on his hands from Ben?
- [43:17]
Ben Terris
He says, and his doctors said with their talking points, that the bruises come from a combination of him taking way too much aspirin. He takes so much aspirin that apparently in 2016, he met with some heads of a pharmaceutical company and he told them how much aspirin he took on a daily basis and they were like, please, sir, don't take that much aspirin. That's too much aspirin. But he takes a lot of aspirin because he wants what he calls thin blood. And because he has thin blood, he also has thin skin and he also bruises easily. And then he says he shakes a lot of hands and the handshakes cause bruising. Sometimes he has cuts on the back of his hands. You've seen the bandages, I'm sure. And he claims that comes from women's fingernails and rings. One nasty slice, he said, came from Pam Bondi's ring on a botched high five.
- [44:08]
Nicole Wallace
Fascinating. I've read a lot of presidential biographies. I've never read about handshaking injuries. Ben, incredible piece of reporting. Thank you. Charlie Sykes, wonderful to see you. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Quick reminder, you can listen to this week's episode of the Best People podcast with my guest, Susan Rice. Just scan the QR code on your screen to watch the conversation on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. We wanna thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
- [44:36]
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