“What he sold us is not what we’re getting”

Summary

Deadline: White House (September 19, 2025)

Episode: “What he sold us is not what we’re getting”

Host: Alicia Menendez (in for Nicolle Wallace)
Notable Guests: Mark Elias, Carol Ledig, Reverend Al Sharpton, Jumani Williams, Paul Rykoff, Randi Weingarten

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Overview

The episode examines the latest developments in the Trump administration, focusing on the weaponization of the Department of Justice (DOJ) against political opponents, the authoritarian expansion of executive power, mass deportations and their consequences, attacks on free expression and educators, and political activism in the face of democratic backsliding. The central theme: the American justice system and core democratic institutions are being overridden by personal vendettas and autocratic ambition from the Trump administration, with profound effects for the rule of law, civil liberties, and social stability.

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Key Discussion Points

1. DOJ Retaliation, Targeting of Letitia James, & the Firing of a U.S. Attorney

[01:42-12:22]

• Background on Letitia James Case: Trump brands New York Attorney General Letitia James, who successfully convicted him of long-term fraud, as his enemy. When a criminal investigation into her was launched by Trump-appointed U.S. Attorney Eric Siebert, it found no wrongdoing—now Trump is firing Siebert for not manufacturing charges.
  • “The President is firing prosecutors who won’t help him get revenge on his political enemies by making up fake crimes.” — Alicia Menendez quoting Jon Favreau [03:15]
• Reporter Insight: Carol Ledig details the process, emphasizing the chilling effect on DOJ independence.
  • “Eric Siebert…was alerted that he would be fired if he did not resign...his first assistant…was given the same…warning.” — Carol Ledig [04:30]
• Mark Elias on Rule of Law:
  • “U.S. attorneys shouldn’t be on teams…What about the months of bad publicity that she has received falsely? What about the sleepless nights?...We cannot lose sight of just how absolutely abnormal and dictatorial and authoritarian we are.” [06:10]
• Al Sharpton:
  • “Even when the appeals court overturned the fine, they did not overturn the conviction…she didn’t go after them on a basis of something that wasn’t there.” [08:18]
  • Raises the question: What's the incentive for a replacement prosecutor to pursue a discredited case?
• Legal and Political Implications: Firing loyalists for not prosecuting enemies signifies systemic breakdown.
  • “Anyone who dares uphold the law over politics will face the same fate.” — Letitia James’ lawyer (read by Alicia Menendez) [10:02]

Notable Quotes

• “We’ve crossed the Rubicon.” — Mark Elias [06:10]
• “We are becoming a lawless country.” — Reverend Al Sharpton [14:07]

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2. Chilling Effect on American Justice and Political Discourse

[12:22-17:25]

• Carol Ledig: Prosecutors fear precedent for being fired over not filing groundless charges.
  • “This is, quote, unquote, the scariest moment for them.” [12:31]
• Rev. Sharpton: Draws sharp contrast between Trump pardoning Jan. 6 attackers and punishing prosecutors who won’t pursue fake charges.
• Mark Elias: The only hope is for people of integrity to resist and make abuses known publicly.
  • “Don’t go quietly. Make sure people know what is happening here because it is completely antithetical to the rule of law.” [17:07]

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3. Trump's Mass Deportation Agenda: Authoritarian Logic and Human Cost

[20:01-26:55]

• Escalating ICE Tactics: ICE now arresting elected officials (e.g., NYC Comptroller and Public Advocate) for seeking oversight of detention conditions. Mass protests are met with force.
• Jumani Williams (NYC Public Advocate):
  • “The fact of the matter is we’re actually in an authoritarian regime right now with the wannabe authoritarianism…This was never about public safety…Our neighbors are being kidnapped…People who are legally filing asylum claims are being duped…then kidnapped and taken to places they don’t know.” [22:09, 23:21]
• Menendez’s Analysis: Deportations are undermining safety and the economy; polling shows most Americans disapprove of Trump’s main policies.
  • “Fed chair Jerome Powell cited Trump’s immigration policy for the weakness in the labor market…MSNBC reporting that it is leading to FBI agents being pulled away from catching violent predators…Wall Street Journal finds…more illegal drugs...more crime.” [21:30]

Notable Quote

• “What he sold us is not what we’re getting.” — Reverend Al Sharpton [24:59]

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4. Expansion of Presidential War-Making Powers

[30:09-35:47]

• Trump’s Broken Promises: Despite campaign vows of peace, Trump is pushing legislation (drafted with Congressional Republicans) to let him unilaterally wage war against “narco-terrorists”—potentially any country or group he labels as such.
  • “It would give Trump the ability to start a war with anyone he wanted without the necessary approval of Congress...” — Alicia Menendez [30:43]
• Paul Rykoff (IAVA Founder):
  • “We are so far beyond normal presidential power…the most dangerous and unprecedented national security territory we’ve ever been in our lifetime.” [31:40]
  • With this authority, Trump could launch nuclear weapons without oversight.
• Reverend Al Sharpton: Sees this as a political move to confirm the president’s ‘omnipotence.’

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5. Assaults on Free Speech & Education: Broadening Authoritarianism

[36:23-44:25]

• Attacks on Comedians and Teachers: Trump personally claims comedians like Jimmy Kimmel face removal for criticizing him; teachers and university presidents are ousted for resisting right-wing campaigns against diversity and inclusion.
  • “This is a dark week…it also continued because of the weaponization and the exploitation of what happened afterwards in the United States…When you fire teachers, like you fire journalists or comedians, you’re firing the people who are actually trying to create a cohesive society.” — Randi Weingarten [37:51]
• Randi Weingarten’s Solution: Teachers as the antidote; they foster critical thinking, agency, and community that are bulwarks against authoritarianism.
  • “The antidote to what is happening in terms of division and hate and smears, are teachers.” [37:51]
  • “That’s why Putin said wars are won by teachers…that’s why fascists fear them.” [44:09]
• Reverend Al Sharpton: Personal story on how a teacher changed his life, highlighting the dangers of driving educators out.
  • “How many youngsters, young Americans…are going to fall through the cracks when we’re intimidating and eliminating teachers?” [42:02]

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6. Erosion of Civic Norms and Growing Activism

[44:25-46:50]

• Parallel to the 1960s: Comparison of today’s activist energy to earlier movements, warning that today’s repression is more severe.
  • Joan Baez: “This is worse. I certainly see it as worse.” [46:50]

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Memorable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “The President is firing prosecutors who won’t help him get revenge on his political enemies by making up fake crimes.” — Alicia Menendez quoting Jon Favreau [03:15]
• “We’ve crossed the Rubicon.” — Mark Elias [06:10]
• “This is, quote, unquote, the scariest moment for them.” — Carol Ledig [12:31]
• “What he sold us is not what we’re getting.” — Reverend Al Sharpton [24:59]
• “We are so far beyond normal presidential power…the most dangerous and unprecedented national security territory we’ve ever been in our lifetime.” — Paul Rykoff [31:40]
• “The antidote to what is happening in terms of division and hate and smears, are teachers.” — Randi Weingarten [37:51]
• “This is worse. I certainly see it as worse.” — Joan Baez [46:50]

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Noteworthy Segments with Timestamps

• [01:42-07:53] — Explosive reporting on the firing of U.S. Attorney Siebert and the politicization of the DOJ against Letitia James
• [20:01-26:55] — Firsthand account of mass protests, ICE overreach, and grassroots resistance from NYC officials
• [30:09-35:47] — In-depth breakdown of Trump’s push for unchecked war powers and its dangers
• [36:23-44:25] — Comprehensive analysis of the assault on free expression and education, featuring Randi Weingarten
• [46:11-46:50] — Joan Baez on the historical stakes and the menace of governmental cruelty today

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Conclusion

This episode delivers an urgent, multifaceted warning about the corrosion of American democratic institutions under Trump’s administration: from using the justice system as a weapon, escalating mass deportations and the militarization of immigration enforcement, and expanding presidential war powers, to direct attacks on educators and free speech. Throughout, the guests urge vigilance, activism, and solidarity to preserve the rule of law, democratic norms, and civil society.

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For listeners who missed the episode:
You’ll come away with a stark picture of how deep the authoritarian tendencies run in the current administration, how it is affecting everyday Americans, and why resisting—even in small local acts—is more important than ever. The conversations are direct, clear-eyed, and grounded in recent, dramatic developments, making this episode a critical listen for understanding the stakes in American democracy today.

Transcript

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[Donald Trump]

The New York court system is totally corrupt. They use the state and the city to go after me. They take top people in the Department of Justice and put them in the Attorney General Letitia James, the fascist and racist Attorney general of New York State Letitia James. I call her Peekaboo James. We have a very bad attorney general there. She's a political hack who got elected saying, I will get Trump. I will get Trump. You have an attorney general who's a total stone cold crook. New York State Letitia James, a total crook.

[Alicia Menendez]

Hi again, everyone. It's five o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. Someone right in the center of Donald Trump's revenge campaign is New York Attorney General Letitia James, the same Letitia James who brought a successful civil case against Trump and his businesses, finding that he and his company knowingly committed fraud for years. And while an appeals court last month tossed the nearly $500 million fine, Trump has never wavered in his viewing of James as his enemy. James has also fought back against several Trump administration policies that would impact those in her jurisdiction. So so I want you to just keep all that in mind as I tell you the next part of this saga. Earlier this year, the director of the Federal Housing Finance Agency, Bill Pulte, referred James for criminal prosecution, alleging she committed mortgage fraud when she bought a house in Virginia in 2023. However, the U.S. attorney in charge of looking into that case, the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, Eric Siebert, has since found nothing. And now that man who Trump only nominated for the job back in May, is poised to be fired for the sole reason of following the facts, not charging a person with a crime they did not commit. ABC News was first to report this, and they write this, quote, trump is expected to fire the U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia after investigators were unable to find incriminating evidence of mortgage fraud against New York Attorney General Letitia James. According to sources, the decision to fire Siebert could. Could throw into crisis one of the most prominent U.S. attorney's offices, which handles a bulk of the country's espionage and terrorism cases. And heightened concerns about Trump's alleged use of the DOJ to target his political adversaries. As former speechwriter Jon Favreau put it, the President is firing prosecutors who won't help him get revenge on his political enemies by making up fake crimes. And if that fake crime accusation rings a bell, it's because it's straight out of the Trump playbook. His recently alleged other perceived political enemies of committing mortgage fraud as well, Senator Adam Schiff of California and Lisa Cook, the Biden appointed member of the Federal Reserve Board that Trump has been trying to fire. All of this revealing a disturbing pattern at Trump's Justice Department, where it appears the rule of law is not the guiding force, but rather Trump's own personal wishes. And that is where we begin this hour with MSNBC senior investigative correspondent Carol Ledig. Also with me, host of Politics Nation, right here on msnbc, and president of the National Action Network, Reverend Al Sharpton. Lucky for us, Mark Elias is still back with us. Carol, I know you have been doing a lot of reporting on this story. Lay out what we know at this hour about Eric Siebert.

[Carol Ledig]

So last night, what we learned was that Eric Siebert, the U.S. attorney in the Eastern District of Virginia, one of the very prominent U.S. attorney's offices in the country and part of the Department of Justice, was alerted that he would be fired if he did not resign. And we also learned later that his first assistant, basically his deputy, was given the same sort of warning. And so that office was bracing last night and most of today for both of them to be fired or removed from their supervisor jobs. And we have one source who says they believe that they have been removed from their jobs, but maybe remain in the Justice Department, but just not in those positions. And Alicia, there's one other thing to say about all of this reporting, which is much of Donald Trump's furor over this has been that somebody hasn't charged Letitia James, as you laid out. He believes she should be investigated. He has made clear that she should be prosecuted. But the facts in this case and the U.S. attorney have concluded that there just isn't a basis to go forward. And what's very worrisome to this team in this office is that this U.S. attorney, Eric Siebert, was viewed as being a loyalist, in a sense, very well allied with the Trump administration and the Trump leaders and appointees of the Department of Justice. But even he feels this is just too far a bridge.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mark Elias, when the loyalists are the ones being tossed, you know that we are on the precipice of crossing the Rubicon.

[Mark Elias]

We've crossed the Rubicon. I want to, I want to reset what is normal or should be normal in a normal administration. Letitia James never would have been investigated. You know, in the last block, you asked me about the inconvenience, the heartache, the burden, the cost of being subjected to one of Donald Trump's frivolous civil lawsuits. Well, imagine what it is like to be the victim of his witch hunt for, against his political opponents. So, you know, with all due respect to this U.S. attorney, the fact that he opened up a criminal investigation on someone who had done nothing other than offend Donald Trump should be itself disqualifying. The fact that the people who are arguing for keeping him are arguing that he is a loyalist, that he is part of the Trump team, only goes to further deepen the corruption that is through and through the criminal justice system in the Trump administration and the Department of Justice. Because, of course, U.S. attorneys shouldn't be on teams. And people who want to keep US Attorneys shouldn't be arguing that they stay in office because they are good members of the White House team. And so while I am happy to hear that perhaps he is resisting the ultimate pressure to bring a case that he has acknowledged, there is no case to bring. While I'm happy to hear that, what about the months of bad, of bad publicity that she has received falsely? What about the sleepless nights? What about the money, the lawyers, all of that that she has had to endure while Donald Trump has weaponized this Department of Justice. We cannot lose sight of just how absolutely abnormal and dictatorial and authoritarian we are already across that Rubicon.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mark, I really appreciate that reset, especially because in the case of Letitia James, I mean, this seemed to come down to what amounted to a clerical error. There were contemporaneous paperwork showing that it was, in fact, an error. Contemporaneous document showing that it was an error. And to your point, they could have dismiss this from the get go. The fact that it came this Far Rev reminds us that this moment is not normal. This Department of Justice is not normal. This administration is not normal.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

No, the fact that it went into a criminal investigation when there was no prima facie evidence of a crime is what's disturbing. Two things I think we ought not forget. Even when the courts here, the appeals court, overturned the fine, they did not overturn the conviction. So they didn't say that Donald Trump was not guilty of what State Attorney General Tish James had indicted him for. They just said they felt the fine was too high. And I understand that's being appealed, but they left the conviction there, which means that she didn't go after them on a basis of something that wasn't there. And the Carroll case also remained there. So let's not act like he's paying somebody back who made some allegations that were false. Two juries found that she was correct in what she brought against Donald Trump. The other point I want to make is that imagine if you, all right, he's fired, say the prosecutor in Virginia's fired, and you asked now to become the prosecutor, are you really expected that you are going to indict or prosecute Tish James after one prosecutor already said there's nothing there?

[Alicia Menendez]

I mean, I think you mean this as a rhetorical question.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

As a rhetorical question is what person would throw their credibility away in their career to come in and do something that has already been determined by your predecessor who was a Trump loyalist. There's nothing there. So, I mean, I just don't understand who would stand up and put their hand up and say, all right, send me in so I can do a kamikaze mission for the President that's going to be out of office in two and a half years.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mark, I'm going to give you a chance to respond to what may or may not be a rhetorical question on the part of the Rev. But I also want to read you this from James Lawyer who writes he told ABC News this expected firing is a brazen attack on the rule of law. He said firing people until Trump finds someone who will bend the law to carry out his revenge has been the president's pattern, and it's illegal. Punishing this prosecutor, a Trump appointee, for doing his job sends a clear and chilling message that anyone who dares uphold the law over politics will face the same fate. I am interested in Rev's question and I'm interested in something that we teed up in this introduction, which is this is an important office. This is an office that deals with espionage Charges. This is an office that deals with our national security. If the office is in turmoil, that means something for Americans, not just Eric Siebert.

[Mark Elias]

Yeah. So first of all, to the reverend's rhetorical question, of course, Donald Trump anticipates that he will finally find someone who, to use the words of the prosecutors in New York who resigned rather than dismiss the charges against Eric Adams until, you know, he finds someone who is a fool or a coward enough to do it. And that will be an absolute travesty of justice. And I have some confidence that the judges will see it as such. I have some confidence that the judges would dismiss the indictment. I have every confidence that a jury would eventually acquit. But at what cost? At what cost, as you say, Alicia, to not just to shames, but to the administration of justice? You know, I had on my podcast a few months ago Dan Goldman, who is a congressman from New York, who's a former federal prosecutor, and he made a really important point, which is, you know, for people who really want law and order, for people who want the bad guys to be prosecuted and put in jail, this is terrible news. Because the politicization of the Department of Justice gives all of those bad guys now a series of arguments that they are the victims of political prosecutions when they're not. Because it becomes impossible to know which are the real prosecutions and which are the trumped up ones ordered up by the White House. And so this is bad all the way around. Whether you are a fan of the Attorney General of New York, whether you view her as courageous as I do, or even if you are a critic, this is just bad for democracy.

[Alicia Menendez]

Well, Carol, to that point, I mean, we, we talked about the possibility of a chilling effect. Are we already seeing that?

[Carol Ledig]

Absolutely. I mean, to the entire point of this panel, I mean, I've been hearing from sources since last night saying this is, quote, unquote, the scariest moment for them. Now, most Americans don't know who Eric Siebert is. Most Americans don't know what the Eastern District of Virginia is and its importance in national security cases and in large, large criminal conspiracy cases. It used to be called the rocket docket because they got, they had so many prosecutions, such a volume. Most Americans don't know that. But what prosecutors would tell them if they had this stage right now is that if you are forcing one of your own appointees and pressuring them to bring a case for which there are no facts, where is the line? Where is the line? Are we going to, in their question Are we going to start ginning up cases without sufficient facts, without sufficient predicates to harangue or punish those that have trifled with or annoyed or hurt in some way? Donald Trump? And obviously Letitia James is at the top of his list because she really scored in getting a scalp from him, in getting a conviction that he had engaged in decades of fraud in his business.

[Alicia Menendez]

Rev, I want to ask you and Mark the same question through different lenses, which is this takeover of our justice system, it will be fought politically and legally for you. Politically. How do you think Democrats prosecute the case against Republicans, that they are allowing this to happen under their watch?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think they ought to bring up clearly and as aggressively as they can that we're talking about people on an enemy's list that are being prosecuted, that prosecutors are saying there's no evidence there, judges are upholding the convictions against Donald Trump and he is pardoning people at the same time, at the same time, the whole nation is fighting political violence, no matter what. Our view is of Kirk, you got a president that pardoned people that assaulted and harmed law enforcement, pardoning them while he's taking away prosecutors who won't prosecute people where there is no evidence. You couldn't get a more graphic breakdown of a criminal justice system that's supposed to be fair. Then on one side, you're letting thugs go that went in the Capitol building and hurt members of Congress and members of law enforcement. But on the other hand, you want to fire people that are saying, I have no evidence here to go forward. We are becoming a lawless country.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mark Elias I think it's worth noting that While presidents appoint U.S. attorneys, once they are appointed, they have tremendous latitude. They don't check back in with the person who appointed them to make sure that they are doing their bidding. That is how the system is designed. To your point, this is an undermining of the system. But I wonder which legal guardrails are still in effect to stop this complete and utter takeover of our judicial system?

[Mark Elias]

Yeah, I think that's actually the big question, right? I mean, first of all, we got Pam Bondi, who's also supposed to be operating independently. She's the Attorney General of the United States. You know, she's been in the White House more often than many of the staff, as far as I can tell from the outside. I mean, she's in the Oval Office hanging out with them, yucking it up. She's doing hits on Fox News from the, from the, from the lawn. And, you know, does anyone really believe she's not taking direction from the, from Donald Trump directly on what to do and what not to do. Does anyone believe the FBI director Cash Patel is doing anything other than the bidding of Donald Trump? And so, of course, from Donald Trump's standpoint, he believes that everybody in the federal government, including the US Attorneys out in the states, operate as his agents. You know, are there, are his errand boys, are there to, to do his bidding. But it is incumbent on the good people of the federal government to stand up and to say, no, I'm not going to do that. I am going to do the right thing for the American people and I'm not going to do your bidding. And if you need to fire me, fire me and I will go out loudly. We saw that work in the Southern District of New York when Eric Adams was under indictment and Donald Trump wanted that indictment dismissed. You saw resignation and firing after firing. And it brought to the public what is going on. My request to the folks in the Eastern District of New York is don't go quietly. Don't do the wrong thing, do the right thing, but don't go quietly. Make sure people know what is happening here because it is completely antithetical to the rule of law. It is important for judges to know it because they will be hearing these cases going forward. And most importantly, it is important for the American people to know that our system of justice is being corrupted.

[Alicia Menendez]

Mark Elias, as always, thank you for your clarity. Karl Lennon, thank you for your reporting and for starting us off. Rev, you are sticking with me. When we return. There are many, many more signs of opposition today to Donald Trump's signature domestic agenda issue, his campaign of mass deportations. From polling to protests, Americans are speaking out. And so are local officials who are being arrested by federal agents for trying to conduct oversight at ICE facilities. We're going to be joined by one of those officials next. This happened just yesterday. Also ahead, Trump campaigned on ending wars. Some he said he would end on day one. But there's new reporting out today showing Trump's allies in Congress are looking to authorize him to start a new one. We're going to bring you that reporting. And it is not just comedians. The Trump White House is looking to fire. The head of the American Federation of Teachers is going to join us later in the hour to talk about the administration's war on educators. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Stay with us.

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[Alicia Menendez]

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[Alicia Menendez]

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[Mark Elias]

This week on my podcast, why Is this Happening? Rob Malley and Hussein Aga, co authors.

[Alicia Menendez]

Of Tomorrow Is Life, Death and the.

[Mark Elias]

Pursuit of Peace in Israel, Palestine.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think it's more a matter of.

[Mark Elias]

Disposition and understanding the nature of the.

[Alicia Menendez]

Conflict that we're dealing with, which is.

[Mark Elias]

Not going to be resolved through these technical means, but by understanding what is.

[Randi Weingarten]

Motivating and pushing both sides.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

There is, or there was, and still is a very fundamental contradiction at the.

[Jumani Williams]

Core of Oslo, because each party looks at it for a different reason.

[Mark Elias]

That's this Week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening wherever.

[Alicia Menendez]

You'Re listening right now and follow in the eight months since Donald Trump took office, ICE's cruelty has rapidly expanded before our eyes, going from rounding up immigrants with no criminal history to arresting U.S. citizens as the Supreme Court gives it carte blanche to target people based on race to cracking down on the elected officials demanding accountability from a government agency. Earlier today, ICE agents tackled and tear gassed protesters outside of an ICE facility in Illinois, including the mayor of Evanston. And Yesterday, ICE arrested 11 New York City elected officials, including City Comptroller Brad Lander and Public Advocate Chimoni Williams, after they demanded access to the facilities used by ICE to detain migrants following complaints of unsanitary and overcrowded conditions. Donald Trump told us that all of this is worth it. The end. They're going to justify the means, just support the deportation of our neighbors, the arrest of US Citizens, the retaliation against our elected officials because of his claims that mass deportation was just somehow going to lower crime, boost the U.S. economy. But now there is growing undeniable evidence that it's not only not achieving the things Donald Trump promised, it is actively undermining them. Earlier this week, Fed Chair Jerome Powell cited Trump's immigration policy for the weakness in the labor market, saying it was causing more immediate harm even than Trump's tariffs. New reporting finds that mass deportation is also making us less safe. MSNBC reporting that it is leading to FBI agents being pulled away from catching violent predators who target children. The Wall Street Journal finds that it is responsible for more illegal drugs to flood across the border as CBP agents are pulled off of checkpoints, leaving them unstaffed. Leaving us to wonder if Trump's campaign of mass deportations and the rapid escalation of ISIS power is anything other than authoritarianism for authoritarianism's sake. Joining us now in New York City, public advocate Jumani Williams. Reverend Al is still with us. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Gad for being with us. Tell us what happened yesterday.

[Jumani Williams]

Thanks for having me. You know, there was two things we were trying to accomplish there. One is see the abuses and stop the abuses. So you had some folks on the 10th floor, you had dozens and dozens of New Yorkers and elected trying to block the garage that we know they take people from and faced arrests and took arrests. The fact of the matter is we're actually in an authoritarian regime right now with the wannabe authoritarianism. The one thing that's preventing the worst of it is some of the systems that they're now trying to take down. And the only way that we can really push back on that is everybody does what they can with what they have, where they are. And that's what we're trying to do and we're trying to encourage people to do. Because as you noted, first of all, this was never about public safety. And we were telling people what was going to happen. And people said we were exaggerating, and we're not. And so now we're calling on the people who said we were exaggerating, who said we were making things up to really step up. Because our neighbors are being kidnapped in 26 Federal Plaza. People who are legally filing asylum claims are being duped to come into court and then kidnapped and taken to places they don't know where they're going. And they may be taken to a country they're not even from.

[Alicia Menendez]

And then there are the conditions inside the detention center.

[Jumani Williams]

That's correct. And of course, the judge has agreed with what we've been telling everyone. They are inhumane conditions there, and they're being held in a way that is actually illegal. Donald Trump never cared about the laws. He pretends that he does so he can do what he wants. But law and order and crime is not what he cares about. It's about authoritarian control, causing chaos, causing fear, and we just have to step up. You know, a lot of people talk about what they would have done back when there were movements to protect people's freedoms or to gain rights. That time is now. So whatever you're saying you would have done or would have liked to do, we need everybody on board right now doing what they can with what they have, where they are. There are tens of thousands of people whose names we have never heard of in those moments. And they're the reasons that we have what we have today. And if we want to keep it, we need that again.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think that this administration has misread this politically. I think that there is a difference between saying the u. S. Mexico border has to work and we want there to be a process there that works for everyone and saying we want to take people on the interior of this country, moms and dads, and deport them to a country they've never been from. Take a look at this polling. This is from the Washington Post. 64% disapprove of the President's tariffs, 60% disapprove of his handling of the economy, 55% disapprove of his handling of immigration, 54% on his handling of crime. It is as though Americans are understanding that when he says, look over here, crime's the issue, immigration's the issue. It is all a guise for something much more nefarious.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

It is very much so. And I think that what we are beginning to see is that people are awakening and saying, what he sold us is not what we're getting. You're getting a lot of people that are saying on his side of the aisle, I wish I hadn't voted for him. In our community, he said that migrants were taking black jobs. Well, black unemployment went up this month, so why aren't we getting our black jobs back if they were taking our jobs? Unemployment of blacks should have went down with all the migrants going. It's all a lot of nonsense. And when you see credible people like jahmani Williams, people around the country need to know he's the number two top official in the city, the number two city elected official. And he's going to get arrested. The mayor, Newark has got arrested. All of these people are people that hundreds of thousands of people voted for that are saying, wait a minute, this is not fair. We're not making this up. They're treating people inhumane, treat people that should not be deported and people sent illegal. And lastly, they're saying, well, we're going to go by what people, we're going to grab people by what they look like. Which means that if I'm walking down the street in Brooklyn and I'm black, how do I look different? Between Alabama and Haiti, we all look the same. They'll grab everybody. And you prove your way out of jail if they don't send you to some foreign country in the first place. So this is dangerous, this is un American, and it's certainly immoral.

[Alicia Menendez]

And I want to be clear, it's not just leaders like you, Jumani Williams, who are standing up. Earlier this week in Illinois, you had a state senator, Karina Villa, who ran through a neighborhood to warn her constituents about the presence of what appeared to be icy engines. Take a listen. Stay in your cars. Hello, everyone in. Stay in this mountain.

[Donald Trump]

Don't open your doors if you're not award city.

[Alicia Menendez]

This is my city. That's right. Take off your mask. Take off your mask. What it is, it is so telling that we're at the point where it's not enough to legislate anymore.

[Jumani Williams]

That just sent chills in my body. It's as stunning that this is where we are in this country, in the United States of America. I'm really hoping that the combination of seeing that he's trying to push state sanctioned media, seeing that this is authoritarianism, seeing that he's literally kidnapping our neighbors, are going to lift people up their consciousness. But I'm concerned that that desire to allow people to blame other folks for their problems is so strong. One of the reasons we are here is because people who should not have drank that orange Kool aid believing it was going to happen to other people or believing it was only the people they didn't like anyway, and many of us were crying the clarion call. It never just happens to one group of folks. It never just happens to the people you don't like. It happens to all of us. And there's a huge lesson here that I hope when we get out of this, and we have to, for my children and your children, that we learn that lesson well. But I'm hoping that he is being so authoritarian that people have no choice but to say, I got to get involved and stop this before it gets worse.

[Alicia Menendez]

You're so right. On that last point, what happens to my neighbor happens to me. New York City public advocate Jumani Williams, thank you so much for being here today. And when we return, brand new reporting on how Republicans in Congress are planning to give Donald Trump the authority to launch a new war. That story after a quick break.

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[Alicia Menendez]

Throughout Donald Trump's political career, this has been a core campaign promise that he has made.

[Donald Trump]

We had no wars. Four years, we had no wars except we defeated isis. We defeated ISIS in record time, but we had no wars. They said he will start a war. I'm not going to start a war. I'm going to stop wars. I was the only president in modern history who did not have any new wars. No new wars under Trump. We will have no more wars, no more disruptions, and we will have prosperity and peace for all.

[Alicia Menendez]

But like many of the promises he made while campaigning for a second term, Donald Trump appears poised to break that one as well. New reporting in the New York Times details how the administration and Republicans in Congress are drafting legislation that would hand President Trump sweeping power to wage war against drug cartels he deems to be terrorists, as well as against any nation he says has harbored or aided them, according to people familiar with the matter. In essence, it would give Trump the ability to start a war with anyone he wanted without the necessary approval of Congress comes in the wake of his administration's highly controversial, potentially illegal military strikes on Venezuelan Boats in the Caribbean, which the administration claimed without evidence were trafficking drugs. During our conversation, host of the Independent Americans podcast and founder and CEO of Independent Veterans of America, Paul Rykoff. Reverend Al is still with us. Paul, what do you make of this?

[Paul Rykoff]

I think it's the most important political story in America and maybe in the world. Okay, the President can do whatever he wants with our military already. That's without this blank check. I had to go through the list. Just so far this year, he's made strikes in Yemen, Iran, Venezuela. We found out that in 2019, in his administration, there was a Navy SEAL operation in North Korea. Then there's the unprecedented deployment of National Guard troops and federal troops here stateside. And now they're talking about Mexico. He is already not being stopped. He's got blank checks under the aumf. He's got a Congress that's either compliant or rolling. And now they want to go a step further and ask for this total blank check which would allow him to strike anyone he deems a narco terrorist anywhere in the world at any time. We are so far beyond normal presidential power. The country hasn't declared war since World War II, so he can call it whatever he wants, but this is military operations and military actions that should get at least consultation with Congress. We're supposed to have a formal declaration of war, but right now we are in the most dangerous and unprecedented national security territory we've ever been in our lifetime.

[Alicia Menendez]

I want to read you just a little bit more from the reporting. It was not clear who wrote the draft Congressional authorization or whether it could pass the Republican led Congress. But the White House has been passing it around the Executive branch. The broadly worded proposal which would grant sprawling authority to Mr. Trump for five years to use American military force in a drug trafficking war, has set off alarm bells in some quarters of the Executive branch and on Capitol Hill, according to speakers who spoke on the condition of anonymity about sensitive internal deliberations. Of course, that set off alarm bells. I mean, it is fundamentally changing the powers of the presidency at this point. If Congress doesn't stand up and say, no, we will not have. Why are they showing. What job are they showing up and doing?

[Paul Rykoff]

I think what he's actually trying to do is get more validation, get more authority, potentially even get funding behind these kinds of operations. I mean, he's got Congress rolled so much now that he's even asking for this, which is kind of like, like the never ending war, global war on terrorism on steroids. Right. Imagine the power that George Bush had after 9, 11. He's asking for that and more with a Congress that will do anything he wants and so far has also been unable to stop him. So even if he doesn't get this, what's stopping him from hitting Mexico right now? What's stopping him from continuing to hit Venezuela? The unfortunate reality and why I think it's the number one story in the country and in the world. Is nothing stopping him right now, Beth?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think that that is the real story. I think the fact of the matter is he just wants a confirmat information on his omnipotence. That's really what he's saying. And all they're doing is voting to give him what he's already exercising. Look at what he's doing. Striking people because he thinks they may be a drug cartel, just doing what he wants around the world, deporting people to countries that don't even know they are coming. So I think that what they are asking the Congress to pass is just something to get.

[Alicia Menendez]

They're workshopping it right now.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

But. Yes, but I think what they're asking is just, you know, this is an ego trip that I'm confirming what I'm already. Absolutely. And I'm the command in chief. I can do what I want to do.

[Alicia Menendez]

I think it is a political misread, though. I think that there is a cross section of Americans who are exhausted by conflict. And I think the proposal that the president should be able to do more is not going to sit well with Americans.

[Paul Rykoff]

I hope not. And especially with conservatives. Right. I mean, this is. You have to take it all the way through to its ultimate conclusion or its worst case scenario. He can essentially use a nuke if he wants to without congressional approval with this authority. And he's threatened to do that. I mean, we're not talking about fantasy. He's threatened to do that. And he's not taking on threats that are facing Poland or other Eastern bloc countries. But he's continuing to expand military operations. Venezuela and domestically. He's rolling out more National Guard troops into new cities. He's continuing to do that. Nothing's stopping him from doing that. And he's on or ahead of plan with a Congress and a secretary of defense that will greenlight anything.

[Alicia Menendez]

Paul Rykoff, calling this the most important story of the day. Thank you so much for joining us. When we return, the indefinite suspension of Jimmy Kimmel isn't the only attack on free expression we're tracking this week. Educators are increasing, increasingly finding themselves under assault by the Trump administration. Why they might be with the head of the American Federation for Teachers, Randy Weingarten. Next, some chilling new warnings last night from Jimmy Kimmel's fellow comedians against giving into the new autocratic norms that we are seeing, including Donald Trump's crackdown on criticism of his administration.

[Mark Elias]

Watch.

[Alicia Menendez]

We must all stand up for the principles of free expression. There's a reason free speech is in the very First Amendment. It stands above all others.

[Mark Elias]

With an autocrat, you cannot give an inch.

[Alicia Menendez]

And if ABC thinks, if ABC thinks.

[Donald Trump]

That this is going to satisfy the regime, they are woefully naive.

[MSNBC Announcer]

You can't go around firing somebody because.

[Donald Trump]

You'Re fearful or trying to suck up to an authoritarian criminal administration in the Oval Office.

[Alicia Menendez]

That's just not how this works. Those new warnings come as Trump openly suggests. Kimmel won't be the last comedian pulled from the air as we see yet another consequence of Trump's assault on education, too, targeting curriculum and books and speech in the classroom. The president of Texas A and M University is stepping down today after a viral video showed a student objecting to a children's literature lesson. The recognition, more than two genders, led to a Republican campaign against the president for initially refusing to fire the teacher of that course and now his own exit from the university. Joining us here at the table, president of the American Federation of Teachers, Randi Weingarten. She is the author of the new book, why Fascists Fear Teachers, Public Education and the Future of Democracy. Reverend L. Is still with us. Your reaction to everything we've seen this week and where it collides with education?

[Randi Weingarten]

Look, it's a dark week. It started as a really dark week with Charlie Kirk's assassination. Political violence can never, must always be denounced, but it also continued because of the weaponization and the exploitation of what happened afterwards in the United States. We need to come together in times like this. And instead, what looks like we are cracking apart and the people, and I say this a lot in this book, the title is a warning. The antidote to what is happening in terms of division and hate and smears, are teachers. And so when you fire teachers, like you fire journalists or you fire comedians, what you're doing is you're firing the people who are actually trying to create a cohesive society, particularly teachers.

[Alicia Menendez]

Please tell me more about the antidote, because we were all here struggling to find one.

[Randi Weingarten]

So this is. So this is what teachers do every single day in classrooms. So most of my book is about what teachers do. Number one, they teach critical thinking. Sorry, I'm looking At you. I'll look at Al.

[Alicia Menendez]

We're both your students. Go ahead.

[Randi Weingarten]

They teach critical thinking. So they teach kids to have agency and engagement and a sense of power in themselves. When a kid can actually decide and discern fact from fiction. When a kid. Look, in my era, we used to wear buttons, say, question authority. Because when you can actually have a sense of how to go through life, which is what the framers actually wanted us to do, learn critical thinking, be educated. But the second thing, more about this moment is what teachers do every single day in their classrooms. And what we try to do on campuses is create a safe and welcoming environment where kids feel like they belong, where parents feel like a school is their home. Even in all the polling that's gone on in America of late on education, parents love their local schools because it creates that kind of sense of home away from home. And so this is the antidote to when you see fear and anger and hate and division. If kids feel the agency that they can actually deal with a conflict and deal with it peacefully. When they can have the agency that they know what to do, they have confidence in themselves. And when they also feel safe and welcome in a school, that's what kids do. That's what pluralism is.

[Alicia Menendez]

This week has been a reminder that you can't talk about any of these stories in a silo. It's not just Jimmy Kimmel. It's not just the U.S. attorney's office in the Eastern District of Virginia. It is not just public officials showing up at an ICE detention facility and being arrested. It is not just the teachers in our school. It is every segment of our society that is dealing with the reality of what this administration has wrought.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And it's that instability, that uncertainty, that's what's going to happen next that has many Americans on edge. When I hear what Randy saying and look at her book, she sent me one and I think about. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. My father left when I was 10 years old. My history teacher. When I went to Tilden High School, my father left. I was senior Somers first year in Tilton High School. My history teacher was a guy named Elliot Salo, who became like a father to me because he would take me for pizza after school and make sure that I understood the homework and all that. So in people's environments, mine was a single parent. Home teachers are more than just somebody sitting up there with a chalk. This was our life. I talked to Elliott Salo, now one of the joys of my life. He's proud of me doing something constructive. How many people will fall through the cracks?

[Randi Weingarten]

He was proud of you always.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Huh?

[Randi Weingarten]

He was proud of you always.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Oh, I think you're right. But I think how many youngsters, young Americans, black, white, Latino, Asian, are going to fall through the cracks when we're intimidating and eliminating teachers?

[Alicia Menendez]

I've been thinking a lot since reading your book, Randy, about exactly that, especially since we're in a moment in this country, we have a teacher shortage in our public. And so if you're a person who cares about education and teaching, you may say to yourself, I didn't sign up to fight fascists. I'm already having to worry about whether or not my kids are getting proper meals. I have to worry about whether or not they're understanding the materials. And now, on top of that, I'm supposed to be the front line in this fight for our democracy. What do you say to them?

[Randi Weingarten]

Well, first, I'm grateful that they're teaching. I'm grateful that they want to make a difference in the lives of kids. And that's why, frankly, teachers are more unionized than any other profession in the country, probably than any other occupation in the country, because teachers have a sense that they need the community to have their back. When I say community, the broader community, but also having a union. And so that's part of the reason why you need strong unions to be able to have each other's back. And at the end of the day, if you look historically at what has stopped democratic backsliding, it's not only the teachers, it's not only trade unionists, but it's citizens coming together like we did on no Kings Day in June and like we will do again in October. I think what's happened is that. That we as Americans are not used to our government. We are used to our government fiercely fighting with each other. We are not used to our government censoring, chilling speech, disappearing people, putting the military on our streets. We are not used to that. That's not what we. That's not what any of us signed up for. And so what's happening is that teachers have to try first to calm things down, to bring people together, and then to teach. And that's why Putin said wars are won by teachers, because of who teachers are and what they do. And that's why fascists fear them.

[Alicia Menendez]

Randy Weingarten, thank you so much for being with us. Rev, as always, thank you. The book is called why Fascists Fear Teachers. Randi Weingarten, congratulations. There's no small task Reverend now is going to be on Politics nation Saturday, Sunday, 5pm Eastern, and tomorrow, he's got two very special guests, House Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries and Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear. Big show, sir. That is Tomorrow live at 5:00pm right here on MSNBC. When we return, voters begin casting ballots in a key race that could help predict next year's midterms. Quick break for us. Be right back. It is the first day of early voting in Virginia and one of the first possible referendums on Donald Trump's job performance. And a temperature check for Democrats hoping to win back control of Congress in next year's midterms. The main event is the race for governor, pitting the current Republican Lieutenant governor, Winsome Earl Sears, against Democratic former Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger. And Spanberger just picked up two unexpected endorsements from across the aisle, former Republican representatives Barbara Comstock and Denver Riggleman. In a new TV ad, Riggleman pointed to Spanberger's bipartisan record. And Comstock says support for Abigail isn't about party. It's what's best for Virginia. We're going to be watching that race closely. Another break for us. We'll be right back. We are living through an extraordinary moment of American activism with thousands of our fellow citizens mobilizing to protest the Trump administration's policies virtually every day. So how does 2025American activism compare to, say, the 1960s? Here's what legendary folk singer and activist Joan Baez told Nicole.

[Randi Weingarten]

I went to jail twice and it was all for aiding and abetting draft resistance. But, you know, we had our lawyers.

[Alicia Menendez]

We had a call, we had the.

[Randi Weingarten]

Families come visit, we had our medication. And right now, since they've first order of the day for this group is cruelty. It's cruelty. And don't just put people in cages. You love putting people in cages. And that's what makes it scary in a way that I was not scared back then. Do you see this moment as worse than the 60s? This is worse. I certainly see it as worse.

[Alicia Menendez]

Joan Baez is Nicole's guest on this week's episode of the Best People. Scan the QR code on your screen and subscribe to MSNBC Premium to listen to the whole thing right now. Thank you for spending part of this Friday with us. We are so grateful.

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