David Frum (5:22)

Problem with modernizing the White House. If the President of the United States is convinced the White House needs to be modernized, and if he goes to Congress to get approval and if he raises the funds, then by all means modernize. I think we're a little bit being misdirected. The vandalism is a story, but the bigger story is the bribery that Donald Trump says as a feature, he said as a point of strength, well, the taxpayer isn't paying for it. If it's important, the taxpayer should pay for it. Everyone who is giving the money a quarter of a billion dollars to pay for this thing, with all due respect to Comcast, thank you for the hospitality. Is doing so in expectation of something in return. They're not doing it for love of ballroom dancing. They are doing it with an expectation of something in return. And this is a pattern that you see again and again through this White House vast favors. The TikTok deal, where Donald Trump is selling TikTok to a hand selected group of insiders for maybe a third or a quarter of its actual market value. So huge sums of money are trading hands and this $250 million flow of funds from donors to Trump's vanity project, it's not cost free. They are getting something for their money. And if the taxpayer won't pay for it, then it's not worth doing.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (6:33)

Anne Applebaum this feels like, I feel like every time you're here I use this expression. But another Rubicon Crossing moment where the actual physical representation of the White House, the People's House, is on the receiving end of destruction and demolition.

Anne Applebaum (6:54)

As Americans, we don't have that many shared symbols. And the ones that we have are reach back into history. You know, we have our flag, the eagle, we have our founding documents. But we differ in many, many ways. The White House is one thing that we've all seen pictures of it, even if we haven't been there or worked there. We've seen photographs of presidents giving press conferences in the Rose Garden that no longer exists. We see them walking down the corridors of the East Wing that no longer exists. We're used to seeing it as part of, you know, it's the background to, you know, to the news that we all see every day. And by destroying it in the way that he's doing it, as David says, without asking Congress, without raising taxpayers money, without, without involving architects or historical preservationists. What Trump is saying, this isn't your symbol. It's not your house. It's not the backdrop to your news about your country. It's Mine, and I'm changing it the way I want to change it. And I think it needs a ballroom that looks like the ballroom at Mar a Lago. And we haven't even talked about the aesthetic damage that he's doing, but the symbolic damage to what we all hold in common, to images that belong to all of us, I think is quite dramatic.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (8:24)

David, from let me come back to you on the corruption, the selling off for parts of the American presidency is, to your point, this really underemphasized. I won't say undercover because it's not fair to journalists like yourself and Ann and Vaughn, but it is an underappreciated part of the Trump story. And it started that way, right? The oligarchs or the tech titans weren't in the audience. They were on the stage facing out at the subjects, us, the audience, the TV cameras. Explain why the country seemed slow to reject that or be repulsed by that.

David Frum (9:07)

Well, I think you're right that people have been slow. I think part of it is that the typical person who doesn't follow politics as closely has an idea that Washington is very corrupt. It's full of corruption. Donald Trump is just more forthright about being corrupt, but he's no different than anyone else. And it's hard for people to understand Washington is, does have integrity problems, for sure. That's true under every administration. To make them understand this is 100 times worse. That's not saying it was zero before, but this is new and different and bigger. That's a hard thing to communicate with people who are pretty cynical. Donald Trump in his first term had another thing going for him, which I think he will not have in the second term. Americans often take a view, well, if I'm getting mine, I don't care if you're getting yours, even if yours is bigger. And most Americans remember, fairly or not, the first three years of the first term of Donald Trump's presidency as a time of general prosperity. So if Trump was putting his hand into the till and making Mike Pence stay at Trump's golf club and charging the Secret Service millions of dollars to stay at his resorts, you know what? I'm getting mine, he's getting his. He's getting more. But I'm still getting mine in the second term, that deal is breaking down. People are worse off. They are paying vast amounts of tariffs, 30 plus billion dollars a month in Trump tariffs going into the treasury, the cost of the taxpayer, the consumers, much more. So I think it will not be true. And as just one last thing, just Minutes before this program began came news reported by the New York Times that Donald Trump is seeking a $230 million direct payment from the U.S. treasury for his unhappiness of being investigated for trying to overthrow the 2020 election.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (10:41)

Yeah. And I mean, it is a point now where he clearly feels unrestrained, grabbing buckets of taxpayer money and pushing them into his POC historical pattern of a public revolting or rejecting that conduct.

Anne Applebaum (11:01)

Well, we haven't had, as David says, we haven't had anything on this scale in American history. We've had presidents before who, I don't know, they. Their wife's relatives were given some kind of government contract. But we haven't had presidents making billions and billions of dollars out of being in office, out of donors, out of crypto scams. That's another thing most people don't understand. I mean, around the. Of course, it's also very common in authoritarian regimes for the leader to be. To also become vastly wealthy in a very secret way. Putin is extremely wealthy, maybe the wealthiest person in the world, but we don't really know how he's wealthy or where his money is. Xi Jinping is very wealthy, and so is his family. We don't know how or why he's wealthy either. The leaders of Iran are wealthy. The Revolutionary Guard, rather, the Venezuelan leadership, is also very wealthy. So it is a characteristic of authoritarian regimes that the leader is wealthy in these secretive ways. And I think for Americans, just catching up to the idea that our country is moving rapidly in that direction is, you know, it's taking a minute. I mean, people aren't used to the idea that the president becomes a billionaire after being president?

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (12:24)

Vaughn, just answer this question. And I mean this seriously. Does he think it looks good and nice and elegant to have the Oval Office covered in gold, the Rose Garden covered in concrete, and the East Wing on the receiving end of a bulldozer? Does he relish those images?

Vaughn Hilliard (12:41)

Yes, absolutely. It's why Mar A Lago looks the way that it does, and it's why now the White House is being transformed in the way it is. And I think it's in the way. This White House construction, the replacement of the East Wing with the ballroom, a microcosm. It's representative of, I think, his first nine months in office in so many ways. It is the rejection of advise and consent. It is the use of acting US Attorneys instead of ones that go through the confirmation process. It is a rejection of inspectors general. It is the placement of a close ally into the position of being head of the Government Accountability Office, the gao, and in a lot of ways, right there have been, you know, controversial, if you go back to Harry Truman's administration, controversial renovation projects at the White House 80 years ago. But Harry Truman, he put together a commission, passed through a law of Congress to create this bipartisan commission to go forward with the renovation projects at the White House. And in this instance, it is not clear whether the White House Historical association has been consulted in any way. I am told that the Commission of Fine Arts has not been consulted in any way. That was a commission that was formed back in 1910. I'm told by somebody who's been a longtime part this process here that, you know, this is the commission that is not just overhelps oversee renovations of the White House, but all federal buildings in Washington to ensure that there is sort of the. That these buildings and these projects fit into the mold of what the capital of the United States should look like. And yet there are four openings on that commission. President Trump hasn't appointed anybody to fill those four vacancies and instead has completely bypassed going through what has been standard protocol for the last 115 years. So I think in a lot of ways, the president believes that he knows what's best and in this process is completely bypassed going through any sort of consultation project with designers or architects or individuals who have not only the future of what the landscape of the country and the capital can look like, but also an understanding of what the past is.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (14:51)

Vaughn, I hear you that he thinks that the gold in the White House and the concrete in the Rose Garden look good. But the Wall Street Journal tells a different story about the construction. They're reporting that as construction proceed on the White House grounds, employees should refrain from taking sharing photographs of the grounds to include the East Wing without prior approval from the Office of Public Affairs. That's from a Treasury official. Why are they so sensitive about the images if they're so happy about destroying the East Wing?

Vaughn Hilliard (15:18)

I think it's a good question. And I doubt that everybody within this administration is eager to see these images. And there are some that will make the case that the East Wing needs to be renovated, that it could use a redo. But I think what everybody was taken aback by was the fact that the East Wing, you know, of the colonnade, which runs down from the actual White House residence, is going to be completely replaced. And, you know, it's very difficult. I went down there earlier today to try to go and get some images about from that angle that you're looking at. On screen. And unless you're at the Treasury Department, you can't get a very good angle. It's been increasingly tougher ever since 911 to get within proximity of the White House for understandable reasons here. But it's one of these, I think, moments. And when you're looking at the way that it has gone about the patio, the, you know, the complete removal of the Rose Garden, it's stark to see the paving over of the Rose Garden that was overseen by Jackie Kennedy 60 years ago. I think that in a lot of ways there is an obvious sensitivity to this here. And on a day of a week, you're likely to hear from the front of the White House, from the North Lawn, music that is blaring almost in the way that it is blaring at Mar a Lago out on the patio. And so it's tough to keep up with the changes and the transformations. And in a lot of ways, I think the White House staff is also, you know, changing with the times. And it is very clear that there is one man that is running the construction project and it's the president.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (16:45)

Let me see the shot one more time of the East Wing with the So I worked in the White House on 911 and the only image I've ever seen in Washington that looked like that was the Pentagon on 9 11. David Frum, I mean, these images, if you live in Washington or have worked in Washington, have a horribly traumatic connotation. And I understand that news of our politics takes a long time to seep in. People have busy lives. People are struggling to pay for groceries and cost of living. But to see someone destroy the White House in such a dramatic and opt in manner is really jarring.

David Frum (17:26)

It's also worth remembering what the East Wing was used for during the Second World War. That's where the military attaches were lodged in the White House. And in more recent times, it's been where the first lady of the United States had her office. I believe Rosalynn Carter was the first. And since then it's been continuous. So for a president who's been contemptuous of allies, contemptuous of the military, contemptuous of the role of women in government, I don't know, maybe he figures we don't need an East Wing anymore because who's going to use it? Just the suckers and losers who wear the uniform of the United States. And the first lady, his first lady doesn't seem to have any role at all, doesn't do anything for the country, but maybe he doesn't need it. It looks like a terrorist attack, as you say. But let's keep in mind that what is replacing it is going to be a lot worse. Replacing it is going to be a monument to bribery.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (18:11)

It's unbelievable. No one's going anywhere. There is, at the time he came on the air, at least one Republican detractor to this endeavor. We'll show that to you. The panel sticks around. Also ahead, as Americans face increasingly difficult economic hardship, a government shutdown, and a president who is, as David and everyone has pointed out, is easily bribed by billionaires all too willing to fund things like a new ballroom, we are lucky today to get to spend some time with one of our most favorite friends of the show, someone who has a real sense of what's happening on main Streets in American cities. Actor Jeff Daniels will be our guest here at the table later in the broadcast. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

Ted Danson (18:59)

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MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (20:28)

We are back with David, Ann and Vaughn. So, Ann, I don't get to say this very often, but today the person bringing us this stark and politically perilous contrast of Donald Trump's ballroom and the struggles of people either from the government shutdown or the ailing economy is a Republican senator named Thom Tillis. Let me show this to you.

Vaughn Hilliard (20:52)

I saw that you were expressed concern.

David Frum (20:53)

About the White House renovations, particularly with the timing of the shutdown.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (20:56)

It's just like, you know, the last thing you know, it's a, it's a function room.

Jeff Daniels (21:01)

We're in the middle of, I've got, we've got staff here that are taking out loans, no interest loans to pay.

David Frum (21:07)

Their bills while they're not getting paid.

Jeff Daniels (21:09)

That sort of stuff. I just think it's bad optics.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (21:12)

Well, it's a lot more than a function room. A function room is where you play dodgeball when there's rain. It's a flipping ballroom. But when it's so bad that even a Republican has to speak out against the optics, there's something there.

Anne Applebaum (21:29)

It's a huge, enormous building. I don't know if you've seen the little maquettes, the little mock ups of what it's going to look like, but it's an enormous room that will dwarf the original White House, which is actually a rather small and elegant originally 18th century building. And so the idea that we're building this Marie Antoinette kind of ridiculous, unnecessary, luxurious project at a moment when, as you say, the government is shut down, the economy is slowing, people are paying tariffs for no reason except that Donald Trump feels that it's a good idea for them to pay tariffs. And so everything costs more. Is a, is a, is one of the, you know, it's one of the great contrasts of the moment. I am actually genuinely surprised that there aren't more Republicans speaking up about this because this is something that, you know, we were talking just a minute ago about why Americans don't notice the corruption. This, this is the kind of thing that they will notice, you know, as an enormous kind of Mar a Lago style building goes up next to, again, a place that we find familiar. That is something that belongs to all of us. And as they see the contrast between that and what they can afford and what the government does for them, I think people will react.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (22:45)

You know, Vaughn, I know that a lot of what you're able to report out is all of this perceived political strength. Donald Trump historically has been cognizant of the polls and his poll numbers are as low as they've ever been. The latest polling last week after the Mideast peace deal was 37% approval rating. His numbers are lower on the economy, and they're lower than they've ever been on immigration. Does he view the rigging of the maps for the midterm as his insurance against his seeming downward trajectory? In terms of the public's approval of.

Vaughn Hilliard (23:22)

His performance, it's definitely beneficial. And I think what he regretted, or what I know he regretted from his first term is largely that he was hesitant. And a lot of that hesitancy came from advisers who were consulting with him based off of what they felt would be not good looks or right things perceived by the public or polling as being unbeneficial to him politically or could potentially hurt Republicans in the midterm elections or his 2020 elections. And what we have heard over the last four years was that if he were to get back into office, that he would go full steam ahead and that there would be no regrets and that he would execute the exact type of agenda and surround himself with the people that were willing to execute that agenda. And so, in so many ways, right. Just today, referencing Darth Vader as Russ Vog sat in front of him, right, His OMB director, who is the one that is executing not just these furloughs, but these firings and the cancellation of $11 billion in US Army Corps of Engineer projects, $18 billion in projects in the state of New York, $8 billion in green energy projects. These are all individuals who he continues to tout and continue to deliver on the exact agenda that he wanted for his second term. And so when you contrast that with this idea of, you know, he's trying to move forward with this austerity agenda of cutting but building the White House at the same time, you brought up the idea of why they're trying to hide the imagery of it. In so many ways, these two concepts run perpendicular to each other. And so, polling be damned. In a lot of ways, the president believes that he has won despite shutdowns in the past and believes that the idea of repealing Obamacare or cuts to healthcare only have so much consequence. And so, in so many ways, I think, yes, right. He is definitely in tune to political and popular opinion. Yet at the same time, increasingly, every midterm election and general election since has felt emboldened by this idea that he, being himself and not listening to anybody telling him to do otherwise, ultimately has given him his biggest political victories and allowed him to return to the White House in a renaissance fashion and now be here at the White House and be able to move forward in a way in which even Congress and the courts are having a difficult time holding him back.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (25:42)

To stipulate, though, we're nine months in and some things are still making their way through the courts. But let me flip that to your original point, David Frum. The corruption is on the part of publicly held companies who care a whole lot about their brands. And A president at 36% is an interesting bet, whether it's simply pay to play. And I don't know. There's no evidence that has emerged of exactly what they're getting. But I take your point that whatever is constructed was paid for by corporations. And so there will be something. No one does anything for free because they have shareholders. They can't. But what about the peril for all of the capitulators, everyone who's bending a knee, the law firms, the universities? I think more universities are doing deals this week, are reported to be considering them. This is the president at 37% in falling with an economy sort of on a cliff. You've got reports in the New York Times about people falling way behind on their car payments. You've got farmers, not just the soybean farmers, but you've got farmers talking about bankruptcy, literally jumping up and down, pleading for help. You've got Republican senators who voted for the big bill talking about undoing parts of it that cut Medicaid. And you've got tariffs that haven't hit yet that will be in full pain position by the holiday shopping season. Companies are betting on a very unpopular president and an even more toxic agenda.

David Frum (27:07)

Look, this plan may come unglued. You don't go bankrupt four times or however many times it was that Donald Trump went bankrupt. Unless you have a big appetite for risk on your way to reward, especially when you're playing with other people's money. So he's taking some gambles. But I think my reading of his approach to 2026, Donald Trump doesn't have strategies exactly. He doesn't have plans. He's not that kind of a thinker. But he does have this kind of feral instinct for weak points in survival. So he's trying a lot of things. Not clear that it'll all work. It's not clear that the redistrict, although as Juan said, that'll help. So you've got the redistricting plan. You've got the troops on the streets. Maybe that can scare away some voters. That might work. You've got the increasingly aggressive role of the military overseas. ICE being more and more violent to urban populations. Maybe that's part of the plan. And then you've got the extort. I talked before about the TikTok deal. I think this is really an underreported story. So TikTok throws off $10 billion a year in revenue, depending on how you value it. That's worth 40 billion in the stock market, 50 billion at least in the US operations of TikTok, maybe more. Maybe Meta trades for 10 times gross sales, so maybe it's 100 billion. A handpicked group of insiders are going to be given 80% of that company, or $14.5 billion. That's an enormous discount. TikTok is, depending on who you ask, probably the single most important communications medium in the United States. Will the single most important media company, the new owners, that single most important media company in the country, be grateful to the man who gave them a 40, 50, $80 billion asset for 14 and a half billion dollars? I think they will. And will he have other ways of putting pressure on them? Because there's going to be debts they're going to owe to the president, including cash debts. So he's trying a bunch of things. When you ask the questions about how things are doing, I always answer, this is going to be a bad year for the incumbent president if the election is free and fair. But that's not a figure of speech. If the election is free and fair, that's a real doubt for the first time in a long time, maybe ever in American history.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (29:08)

And that should probably be the jumping off point for every conversation we have from now until then. Right? Everything we've talked about hinges on the answer to that question. Ann, I'll give you a quick last word.

Anne Applebaum (29:21)

You could add six or seven more things to what David just said. The federal government has been demanding voter data from the state. There are a lot of states that are looking at new laws governing voter data. I would just finish by saying that the number of ways in which they're looking at how to shape the playing field, how to make an uneven playing field is myriad. They're doing it in many different departments of the government. And so it's something everybody should be aware of between now and next November.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (29:52)

All right, so let's do this same time, same place. Let's just tick through all those. Because I think putting them all, I think they hang together in a way that makes a lot more sense than when people like myself try to whack a mole at them. Thank you so much, David Frum and Applebaum and Vaughn Hilliard for starting us off today. When we come back, Americans increasingly stressed out and feeling the burden of rising costs of just about everything, a stumbling economy, and a president hell bent on punishing his perceived enemy. He's not dealing with the price of, quote, the grocery like he promised. We will welcome to the table someone who is watching the impact of all of this on his neighbors and friends in his native Michigan. Actor Jeff Daniels will be our guest after a short break. Don't go anywhere.

Anne Applebaum (30:40)

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate and believe it.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (30:42)

Or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.

David Frum (30:45)

I'm Gabe Liedman.

Max Silvestri (30:46)

I'm Max Silvestri and we've been friends.

Vaughn Hilliard (30:49)

For 20 years and we like to.

Max Silvestri (30:51)

Reach out to kind of get advice.

Vaughn Hilliard (30:52)

On how to live our life lives.

David Frum (30:53)

It's called I need you guys.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (30:55)

Should I give my baby fresh vegetables? Can I drink the water at the hospital?

David Frum (31:00)

My landlord plays the trombone and I can't ask him to stop.

Anne Applebaum (31:04)

You should make sure that you subscribe.

David Frum (31:07)

So that you never miss an episode.

Jeff Daniels (31:08)

I need you guys.

Max Silvestri (31:18)

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David Frum (32:20)

The American people were just focused on, you know, the ideas that he was spewing. And it wasn't even just ideas. It was just, you know, know, stating the obvious and pointing out a lot of things that Democrats may have been ignoring, like the border, you know, like the economy he said it himself, man. We want on one word, groceries.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (32:38)

That was for my conversation with Charlamagne, the God for this week's episode of the Best People podcast. Donald Trump won on one word, the groceries. Economic anxiety catapulted Donald Trump back to the White House because, as our next guest says, the money matters. The new polling out today shows that Donald Trump has done little to address the very thing that won him the presidency a second time. According to AP north polling, 54% of Americans say that grocery costs are a major source of stress. That stress that voters are feeling does not appear to be Donald Trump's priority, as we just discussed. And Senator Elizabeth Warren points out, quote, oh, you're trying to say the cost of living is skyrocketing. Donald Trump can't hear you over the sound of bulldozers demolishing a wing of the White House to build a new grand ballroom. Joining me at the table, actor, musician, Michigander, my friend, Jeff Daniels. Thank you. Thanks for being here.

Jeff Daniels (33:31)

Thanks for having me.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (33:32)

How does it feel out there? I feel like that's always my question on and off TV.

Jeff Daniels (33:38)

I think the no Kings protest, aside from the 8 million plus people that actually did brought attention to what's going on, to the people who I have checked out, who just can't deal with it, it's too much. Every day I talk about when we did Newsroom, the Aaron Sorkin show. If we were to be still doing that now, we couldn't keep up. And you know, even today, there's this, that the other thing that the White House and this administration is doing that. And people just go, But I think that those who voted for him because they didn't want Kamala Harris or don't like Democrats, never voted for Democrats ever, are paying attention if things cost more. And that was one of the things he promised, like any president promised, I'm going to lower prices. Well, if he does great, he's a hero come the midterms. But if he doesn't, they're going to notice that. And it's not the people on the right who are going to stay with him, but it's the people who went with him because he promised that he'd make their lives better. And if they aren't better, he'll be. And the Congress and the Republicans in Congress will be like any other political party that didn't deliver.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (35:06)

It's interesting. We've talked a lot about decency and the lack of decency coming from the guy in the Oval Office. And I think what has been Explained over the last nine years is that a lot of voters were willing to sacrifice decency and norms and traditions because they felt a little bit better about their economy. Either they thought his wealth was contagious, or they just thought because he was so wealthy or they perceived him to be wealthy and successful that he could scale that. When that goes away. I mean, there's a story in the New York Times today about records number of people defaulting on their car loans. Most people need their car to go to work. There's a housing crisis in this country. Groceries are more expensive, not less expensive. And you see windows into even Donald Trump talking about the price of beef. I mean, that is real. That is undeniable, and that is getting worse. Do you think decency remains a luxury for people, or do you think decency comes into focus when they realize that he hasn't made their economies better?

Jeff Daniels (36:09)

I would like to think that things like decency and civility and respect for the rule of law and respect for things that are bigger than you, including the office of the presidency, which is different than a monarchy, will matter. First, it will be about the economy. It always is. Carville was right. It just is. And that's okay. But I think then people will start to go, maybe it wasn't worth it. And by the way, do we really have to treat people like that? You know, the meme that he had where he was flying with the crown and the, you know, spewing excrement all over the people down below the country. America, yeah, he tried it. Would Lincoln have done that?

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (37:00)

I don't think Nixon would have done that.

Jeff Daniels (37:02)

Nixon wouldn't have done it. You know, Reagan wouldn't have done it. Bush wouldn't have done it either. Bush. You know, it just, you know, I just. I think people in the Midwest, where I am, still have this. We value our decency and our civility and, you know, we don't get taken with whatever goes on on the coast. You know, we got a chip on our shoulder about that. And. And I think it matters. It may not matter right away when you're voting, but down the road, if he doesn't deliver on the economy like he promised he would, then that stuff will start to add up and they'll get tired of it and they'll vote for change, which is what they always do. You know, change is always. We're always changing. I was thinking about, you know, when I was growing up and I started listening to Led Zeppelin and my dad was going, what the hell is that? You know, I mean, it changes. Every generation changes things. And we're in a place now where they want to change it back to whatever that was. And I don't think people are as afraid of change, and we'll find out at midterms, but I don't think they're afraid of change. I think they wanted things to get it solved economically. But I think when it comes to decency and civility and respect for the rule of law, which governs all of us, whether we're left or right, will matter again.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (38:32)

You played Jim Comey, and Jim Comey, I think, is the first political prosecution. Donald Trump had him indicted via social media post. Pam, hurry up and do it. I think they went through two, three, four people from an office that fled because the facts weren't there. But they found somebody. They found their gal and Lindsey Halligan. Those facts are known. But I wonder if there was anything about Comey's response. He issues a video that says, I'm not afraid and let's have a trial. Seemed like a very, like, it seemed like a line that you could deliver as Comey. It seemed like a very Comey response. I wonder if you have as much confidence as he does that the rule of law will keep him safe from political prosecution.

Jeff Daniels (39:17)

You know, I got to play him in the Comey rule, and one of the things I learned about him was his the sacredness of the rule of law. And one person I talked to described him as a boy scout when it came to that kind of thing. And you can argue that he handled the Hillary announcement in the summer wrong. But come that fall and the month leading up to it, there are some things that happened that weren't his fault, and he took the blame for it. And I always respected him for handling that the way he did when he was basically hammered and even now with this kind of retribution campaign, and he's the star of the first one on, he did something that Trump hasn't done. He said, let's go to court. Yeah, I'm innocent. Let's go to court. You know, Trump's always been, whether it was the Mar a Lago classified documents or go down, a long list of stuff. He's, he'd delay, he'd appeal, he'd do that. All the, all the lawyer, you know, magic tricks he could do. Comey said, no, let's go. I mean, I've always thought that if Trump were that innocent of some of this stuff, he'd go, let's go to court on Monday and could you do it at 10 because I'm going to schedule a tee time at 3 because this is be dismissed in half an hour because I'm innocent.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (40:46)

He never wanted to face the evidence or the sex or jury.

Jeff Daniels (40:48)

But Jim will do it. Jim will do it. And that tells me that he's going bring it. This could be over in two hours.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (40:56)

It's amazing. It is another contrast. Will you stay? I have to sneak in a quick break.

Jeff Daniels (40:59)

Sure.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (40:59)

Okay. We're on the other side with Jeff Daniels. Don't go anywhere. When we interviewed Joan Baez for the Best People podcast, we asked her what was different about the movements in the 60s. And she said, well, lots of things, but one of them, we had each other and we had the music. On Saturday, 7 million Americans found each other at the no Kings protest. And today, thanks to Jeff Daniels, we've got the music.

Jeff Daniels (41:26)

This is a song I wrote called Crazy World, which is how I code.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (41:30)

Okay, let's hear it.

Jeff Daniels (41:31)

I've seen a young girl smiling it's something he just said. I watched him fall into her pretty green eyes his cheeks turned valentine red I've seen an old man walking with his wife by his side I watched him reach down take her hand Damned if I didn't cry this crazy world's gone crazy who am I to judge? It's nice to know In a world full of hate there's someone out there still making love I've seen a dog's tail wagging I've seen a grandchild run I've sung along to a day breaking dawn and a hundred thousand thousand setting suns I've seen a door held open I've seen strangers shaking hands I've seen a kiss from that old flame she missed last a little longer than planned this crazy world's gone crazy who am I to judge? It's nice to know In a world full of hate there's someone out there still making love I've seen a prayer get answered I've seen a bride in June I'm proud to say I've seen the Milky Way winkin at the man in the moon I've seen a dozen roses I've seen a heart on a sleeve I've seen enough to know what I know Know what I still believe this crazy world's gone crazy who am I to judge? It's nice to know In a world full of hate there's someone out there there's someone out there there's someone out there.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (44:35)

We needed that. We all needed that. Don't forget. Any reaction from the crew? That's awesome. I love it. Thank you. Will you come back?

Jeff Daniels (44:44)

Sure.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (44:45)

You sing to us.

Jeff Daniels (44:46)

Sure.

MSNBC Host (possibly Chuck Todd or similar) (44:47)

The great Jeff Daniels. Thank you so much for being here. We're gonna sneak in one more break. We've got some breaking news on the other side. Don't go anywhere. News breaking in the last few minutes. Arizona Attorney General Chris Mays has sued the United States House of Representatives over Republican Speaker Mike Johnson's failure to swear in Representative elect Adelita Grijalva. She won a special election in Arizona's 7th district one month ago. Grijalva has promised to cast the final vote needed to push forward the discharge petition compelling the Justice Department to release documents pertaining to Jeffrey Epstein. Johnson has blamed the government shutdown because the House is not in regular session. But Mays is arguing in her lawsuit that Johnson is breaking the precedent he set just this April when he swore into Republicans in a pro forma session. We'll stay on top of that lawsuit. One more break. We'll be right back. We heard a little bit from my conversation with Charlemagne tha God a couple minutes ago, and we want to remind you that he is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. Scan the QR code code on the screen to watch the conversation right now on YouTube. And as always, you can listen wherever you get your podcasts. I hope you let me know what you think. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.

Max Silvestri (46:05)

Hey, this is Will Arnett, host of Smartless. Smartless is a podcast with myself and Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman where each week one of us reveals a mystery guest to the other two. We dive deep with guests that you love like Bill Hader, Selena Gomez, Jennifer Aniston, David Beckham, Kristen Stewart, and tons more. So join us for a genuinely improvised and authentic conversation filled with laughter and newfound knowledge to feed the smartless mind. Listen to Smartless now on the SiriusXM app. Download it today.