Nicole Wallace (2:41)

Commissioner Scott.

Host/Moderator (2:44)

Did the ICU.

Nicole Wallace (2:48)

Nurse Alex Freddy deserve to die?

John Heilman (2:53)

I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation, sir.

Nicole Wallace (2:55)

Director Lyons, did Renee Goode deserve to die.

John Heilman (3:02)

Sir? I can't comment on ongoing investigations.

Host/Moderator (3:08)

Lyons also refused to apologize for the comments that the Trump administration made about Alex Preddy and Renee Good after they were killed. Watch that.

Nicole Wallace (3:19)

Mr. Lyons, will you apologize to the family of Renee Good for being called.

John Heilman (3:23)

A domestic terrorist by the president and his leadership? No, sir. Why not? Sir, I welcome the opportunity to speak to the family in private, but I'm not going to comment on any active investigation. Is she a domestic terrorist, sir? I'm not going to comment on the investigation.

Nicole Wallace (3:40)

Will you apologize to the family of.

John Heilman (3:41)

Alex Preddy for also being called a domestic terrorist, sir? Again, I'm not going to speak to any ongoing investigation.

Host/Moderator (3:51)

That is being done in all of our names as Americans. That is where we are right now with the world watching. That is who we are. It's also where we start the hour. I want to bring in former top ICE and DHS official Jason Hauser. Also joining us, Puck News senior political columnist, national affairs analyst John Heilman and is here. It is hard when it falls to you, Jason, to be the person that has to go on Capitol Hill and field these questions. But I wonder what your thoughts were watching this today.

John Heilman (4:25)

Yeah, thanks, Nicole. I watched. I watched all of this. You know, I thought it was, it was very challenging to hear some of the answers. No, it was. Was good to hear, you know, Congressman, Republican, Congressman McCall literally saying out loud that the officers that were on the ground in Minnesota weren't trained to carry out those operations and calling out Chief Avino. You know, it's also, I think some of the, some of the questions could have been more, more direct. You know, we have a situation here where we're debating ICE training, you know, and whether an ICE officer started last week or 15 years ago. They're not trained to protect Americans or protect themselves in these sort of operations that are being directed on them. And I think that's what a lot of the Congress members got to today, which is sort of who is putting them in these positions. But the two biggest things that I took away from the hearing was one, Acting Director Lyon's numbers were just, were all over the place. He was stating that there was 470,000 removals and 379,000 arrests by ICE in 2025. But if you look at a lot of the Data that only 14% of those were criminals.

Host/Moderator (5:39)

It'S incredible. I mean, Jason, what is the most productive space in which to have a conversation about. I mean, what's clear to me is that communities are being terrorized. And I don't think that's a political statement. And that's not an opinion. Right. Like that's what's on the news. It is also clear to me that it is not in the interest of ICE or DHS to have, I think their approval rating among all Americans is down in the 20s. To have upward of 78% of Americans disapprove of the job they're doing. What could change immediately, if anyone. And we can debate whether or not there's will to change anything. But is the biggest problem the quota, or is the biggest problem that there is no limit to the brutality they'll deploy against asylum seekers, immigrants and American citizens alike?

John Heilman (6:36)

The issue is the quotas and it's the tactics. I mean, we literally are living in a situation where one out of five federal law enforcement officers have been taken off going after criminals and they've been turned on civil immigration enforcement when there's been no net increase in arrests of criminals that have final orders of removal. We have a situation where in 2024, the Biden administration arrested 88,000 people. ICE arrested 88,000 that had criminal histories. This administration is on about the same glide course when they've been given also $140 billion, and they've been carrying out tactics that don't meet their objectives or their goals for the punitive sort of optics of it in the. In the news. But now we have a situation where Americans are being killed. And must I also say there's been an exponential increase of migrants in ICE detention also dying in custody. So we're not just seeing deaths on the streets, but we're seeing deaths in custody. And you have that when you lose focus on priorities to protect public safety and you lose focus on creating an immigration system that works for the American people.

Host/Moderator (7:49)

John Heilman. It is an incredible number that Joe Biden and Donald Trump have basically the same number of deporting violent criminals. Like, for all of the trauma, for all of the cannibalizing. Donald Trump's political capital, Right. He went from somewhere in the 40s to now. I think he was at about 46% when he was inaugurated. He's now down to 36 to 37% in just about every opinion poll, including Fox News. That all that and no difference in the numbers of the kinds of people he said he was going to deport. The, quote, worst of the worst, the adjudicated criminals.

Nicole Wallace (8:31)

Well, right, Nicole. And look, you have to start with the reality, which is that the one thing Donald Trump has done then, and I'm not, I think the. The entire immigration policy, the entire deployment of ice, the ICE surges, all of it as, you know, because I've been saying this from day one, I think it's all been an unmitigated disaster. So let's just say that the numbers, you have to acknowledge that one of the things Trump has done in the first year was he sealed the border. And that's something that Joe Biden didn't do. And because of the fact that there was such a large influx of immigrants over the course of the four years, of undocumented immigrants over the course, Biden's four years, it's a little hard to parse out the. You know what, you're not comparing apples and oranges exactly. But, you know, Trump is dealing with a much more static population here. And so the fact that there are fewer violent criminals being deported, despite all the initial effort, both points to the futility of the policy, but also the fact that the policy is not just futile, but unnecessary. I mean, the reality is that Trump, Trump should be taking a victory lap right now. He would be his numbers on immigration if he had done the one thing that he has done that the American people totally approve of, which is to cut off illegal immigrants coming across the border. He's done that very effectively. His numbers would be higher than they were on Election Day if he just stopped there. The problem is, as Jason was saying, is that you've got these issues related to tactics, to strategy, and then the rot that starts at the top. And it's part of why I found certain aspects of this hearing frustrating in the sense that I don't think that it's. You made a comment about how it's difficult when you go up on Capitol Hill and have to answer for other people. It's particularly difficult when you go up on Capitol Hill. And again, I don't have any particular sympathy for this witness, but when you're having to answer for Donald Trump and Kristi Noemi, those are the people who owe America, but certainly who owe Michael Preddy and Michelle Good or Renee Good. Those are the people who owe apologies. The apologies should be given by the people who made the outrageous, completely baseless and deeply, deeply disturbing and denigrating comments about these people, who they were, were they domestic terrorists, all the things that were done to denigrate these two people who were shot dead in the street by ice. Those apologies should be coming from the people who made those comments and the people who run these programs at the very top. And those people are Donald Trump and Kristi Noem. I frankly don't care that much whether the head of CBP or DHS gives an apology or not, because it would be an empty apology and asking that person to apologize for things he didn't say. I think, you know, whatever the bigger issue here is, how do we stop it? And what do we learn from this hearing today that helps us understand what, what the most effective things that could be done and that Democrats could win on in this showdown. The standoff that we're seeing right now on DHS funding, what can they get done of that 10 things they've demanded, their list of 10, how many of those things can they get in this negotiation? And are they the important things on that list that would bring the worst aspects of this nightmare to an end?

Host/Moderator (11:54)

On that note, I wanna bring into our conversation Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado. He's a member of the Armed Services and Intelligence Committees. Congressman, thank you for being here. I want to pull you into this conversation with a story that my colleague Rachel Maddow has spent a lot of time on. And I'm going to read you some reporting in the New York Times about the effort to build warehouses and detention centers around the country. Quote, Even as Trump has received Republican support for his deportation crackdown, the opposition illustrated the often contradictory politics of the immigration debate. While many voters in the United States support curbing illegal immig, a majority have also come to disapprove of ice. In Chester, New York, the site of a planned detention center, several hundred protesters in puffer jackets gathered next to a wooded area in the dark parking lot of the senior Center. Madeleine Tirado, 66, lives in Greenwood Lake, New York, and showed up hoisting a metal folding chair to sit out for a long night. Quote, I don't want to see American citizens jailed or have possible confrontations with law enforcement. Mr. Tirado said what guarantees that they won't pick pick up local Chester residents? Minneapolis has changed I think people's experience of Donald Trump and his, you know, I guess much ballyhooed mass deportation promises. They understand that until the program changes, until the quotas are no longer guiding the actions, until the tactics are not everything that you can think of to brutalize a person here seeking asylum or a person here illegally or an American citizen standing in the way, that until everyone is safe, nobody is safe. And I wonder how important you think this effort is to block the detention centers.

Jason Crow (13:43)

Well, Nicole, Minneapolis changed a lot of Americans view of this rogue lawless agency that has become ICE about the Trump administration's approach to immigration enforcement. They have seen in real time, in glaring video and detail, a Murder of innocent Americans, abuses of senior citizens, of protesters and many others. So it's changed a lot of people's view. What it hasn't done is change the Trump administration's approach to this. I'm gonna disabuse everybody of the notion that the Trump administration is gonna do anything different.

John Heilman (14:20)

Right.

Jason Crow (14:20)

That Tom Homan is somehow better, is more reformed than the CPBP head. No, they are going to double down and triple down. And I know that because they are signing the contracts with contractors, they are retrofitting these warehouses they are building, continuing to build the infrastructure to do what they have wanted to do along, and that is terrorize communities, mass deportation, rip families apart from, and gut our communities. And I'm going to do everything possible to stop it.

Host/Moderator (14:54)

Jason Hauser was just commenting about the number of people who died in detention. And obviously what's happening inside detention centers is a lot more opaque than what's happening outside. But there's been some incredible reporting in ProPublica about the plight of children, some of them infants, some of them as young as 2, 5, 12, 14, writing letters in the first term. Those stories were enough to get Trump to reverse the policy. How do you see that reporting impacting the policy, if at all?

Jason Crow (15:23)

Well, we need as much reporting, we need as much citizen oversight as possible. I want to give just incredible, incredible credit to the thousands of Americans who are out on streets, who are protesting, who are taking pictures, who are photographing at great personal peril to themselves, as we have seen, who are documenting the abuses and who are shedding light on all of this. The Trump administration is the most corrupt administration in U.S. history. And on top of that, they have stonewalled over and over again. Congressional oversight, they don't show up to a lot of hearings and briefings, they don't give information to Congress anymore. So what we need to do is we need to be innovative, we need to be creative. We need every American who is patriotic and is willing to stand up for their country and the community to be documenting these abuses, to shed light on them so we can all come together and stop it.

Host/Moderator (16:13)

Let me, I mean, to that point, let me show you how they answered questions about their own tactics. The use of pepper spray, that in this instance had a one year old was exposed to it. Let me play that moment for you.

John Heilman (16:27)

Is it proper procedure to aim pepper spray into the window of a moving vehicle?

Nicole Wallace (16:33)

I'm not familiar, I don't have all the details on this.

John Heilman (16:35)

It's not going to, I'm not asking about to Answer your specific question. Is it proper procedure?

Jason Crow (16:39)

Try to avoid that.

John Heilman (16:40)

No, it's not. Try to avoid it because you understand it's dangerous, right? Not just for the driver, but for pedestrians, for other people who could be hit by a car if a driver is blinded. Right. Were any of your agents ever investigated or disciplined for this incident?

Nicole Wallace (16:55)

I have to get back to you on this incident.

John Heilman (16:57)

I believe it's still an ongoing investigation, but we have at least. I'd like to show you another video. This one is from Minneapolis. So, as you can see, the agent sprayed pepper splay at close range directly into the face of an individual who had already been pinned to the ground by three other agents. This is not the intended use of this. Of this weapon. Correct.

Jason Crow (17:29)

The intended use is to try to avoid escalating.

John Heilman (17:32)

It's to de. Escalate the situation. Well, he was already pinned around by three other agents. I think he had been de escalated.

Host/Moderator (17:41)

Congressman, to your point about the act of bravery that's involved in catch catching these moments, there's no defense and there's no explanation of de escalation when someone's pinned down by three people.

Jason Crow (17:57)

No, there isn't. I'm sickened by these images of these people dressed in combat uniforms. You know, I was an Army Ranger. I paratrooper. I did three combat deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan. And that was tough work with tough people doing tough missions. You have these folks here basically doing commando cosplay, dressed in the same stuff that I was dressed in in Iraq and Afghanistan, trying to beat up protesters and innocent civilians. It's sick. It's sick and everybody should be upset about it.

John Heilman (18:27)

Right?

Jason Crow (18:28)

This is a feature, not a bug of the system they have designed. They have spent the last year putting videos out. Have you seen these videos that Kristi Noem has been put out, these recruiting videos, and they are hiring thousands of these agents that are looking at these gross videos, saying, yeah, that's what I want to do with my life. That's what. That's what I want to do for a living. We are going to have to radically reform this and actually refocus law enforcement on restoring trust, going after violent criminals, which is what America deserves, not this craziness that the Trump administration has released on our streets.

Host/Moderator (19:03)

You have been speaking out on all of these issues, but one of them landed you and five other lawmakers in some hot water. And last time you were here, we asked you if there was any update on the video that you and five other lawmakers made urging members of the military not to follow any orders that are illegal. Is there any update to the efforts to harass or investigate you or your fellow lawmakers?

Jason Crow (19:31)

I joined my colleagues in that video last year, Nicole, because it is the right thing to do. It is not just a right for members of Congress to say follow the law and to speak up and to make sure that people are protected. It is actually our duty. It is what Congress exists to do to make sure that the law is followed and people's constitutional rights are protected. And I am never going to back down from that. Let's be honest what this is. The Trump administration is picking out leaders of the resistance and opposition party that try to threaten us and intimidate us to send a message to the rest of America. But they have chosen the wrong people. We are not going to be intimidated and bullied. Trump knows that fear is contagious. What I know is that courage is contagious. So it is time to stand up and speak up. And every American who is ready to defend their country, now is our moment.

Host/Moderator (20:19)

Well, thank you for making sure that always includes doing shows like this one. Congressman Crow, thank you for your time today. Jason and John, stick around a little bit longer. We'll bring them back into this conversation. On the other side, a short break. Also ahead for us, Donald Trump is telling Americans to turn the page on the Epstein scandal. But that is an anomaly. That is not what's happening anywhere else. In the UK for example, where we're seeing real investigations ensue. Real accountability might even cost the prime minister's job. The gaping accountability gap between the UK And Donald Trump's cabinet. Later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. Looking for a Valentine's gift she'll truly love. 1-800-Flowers.com knows what she wants. For 50 years, 1-800-Flowers.Com has helped guys get it right, delivering millions of fresh Valentine's roses nationwide with high quality bouquets guaranteed to last. Right now, when you buy one dozen premium roses, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen for free. Valentine's is coming fast, so don't wait until the last minute. Double your blooms today at 1-800-flowers.com sxm. That's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm.

Nicole Wallace (21:30)

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We're prohibited by log. See Terms and conditions for details. 21/subscribe to MSNow Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNOW's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace. Why is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite Ms. Now shows Ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, including Rachel Maddow Presents Burn Order. Subscribe to Ms. Now Premium on Apple Podcasts. That is why you're wearing masks so.

Jason Crow (22:35)

No one can hold you accountable.

Nicole Wallace (22:38)

And you know that the FBI is not going to because notwithstanding all of.

John Heilman (22:43)

The investigations all of you say are.

Nicole Wallace (22:45)

Going on, the Department of Justice and the FBI has stated they are not investigating those two murders.

Jason Crow (22:53)

This is not the America that I know and love.

Nicole Wallace (22:56)

This is not the America my immigrants came to. And it's long past time that you rein in your out of control agency and start following the law and the Constitution.

Host/Moderator (23:09)

Hellman I just want to come back to all that has been lost because of Trump's double and triple and quadrupling down on this. To Jason's earlier point, they have not deported more people guilty of crimes and violence than Joe Biden did. And if you let that sink in, I feel like that is probably the most disturbing data point Trump will hear if he hears it at all. But two they lost the manosphere first. Then, and I quoted you yesterday on our coverage of Bad Bunn. Then they seem to lose the few people and culture willing to speak out here and there. Then they lost the Grammys. Then they seemed to lose the NFL, whose commissioner literally put his arms literally and figuratively around Bad Bunny. He used his acceptance speech at the Grammys to say ice out.

Nicole Wallace (24:01)

Well, yeah, Nicole, they've lost the culture. And as we've talked about on many occasions, you think about where I believe Ben Smith wrote a piece about this in Semaphore today. You think about where Trump was a year ago, where MAGA was a year ago, where it's true for every president when they first come into office, when they first get inaugurated, it seems like they ride on the tide of victory and people think, oh, whether they like it or they hate it, they think, man, this guy's gonna dominate the first hundred days. Dom is on television all the time and everybody's in their thrall. And there was a moment, I think, to the horror of some of us where the strength of MAGA and Trump, the Trump brand and how much of a hold he had, not just on Washington, but on the culture, seemed not unbreakable because I never thought that, but certainly seemed greater than it had ever been before, was greater than it was through all of Trump 1.0. They felt they were creating the impression of invincibility. And in some ways in the culture that you kind of thought, well, this is going to, this could be durable, this could stick around for a while, this could be dominant. And it's a year later and they've lost all of it. They're now, they're now on the bad bunny thing. You know, you just hear the, the, the shrill snowflake whining of people like Megyn Kelly. American football is ours. It's ours.

Host/Moderator (25:25)

Someone's. Yeah, yeah.

Nicole Wallace (25:29)

They look like such losers. They look like such a bunch of losers right now. And the notion a hold on the culture is like, it's almost unthinkable how much they've lost any of that kind of traction that they had. They seem so much less, even as they seem super scary in the, in the policies that ISIS is carrying out and carrying out in Minnesota as a cultural force. They seem totally deflated. And, you know, you look at these numbers, I'll just throw this in there again from another network. I saw Kata Harry Edin on CNN last night going through Trump's numbers with non college voters where he won them by 14 points in 2024. He's down. He's now, he's now losing them by nine.

John Heilman (26:17)

Wow.

Nicole Wallace (26:18)

The core of the Trump non college vote, which has been the strength that Trump had in 2016, in 2020 and 2024, he's had a 23 point swing with non college. I think it might be non college men, but it's certainly non college voters across the board. He's lost ground with everybody and he's lost ground in the vibesphere. And man, it's just as optimistic. As much as I sat a year ago and said this can't last, but, man, I'm a little nervous because it feels there's a lot more going on here in the culture. I would never have predicted, even on my most optimistic day, that they would be looking so pathetic in the realm of culture and the place where culture and politics intersect as they do today, but they have lost the plot and it's all because of Donald Trump. And I think a lot of it has to do with this specific thing. People in the country just look at what is going on in the streets of places like Minneapolis and Chicago and Washington and Los Angeles and say, that is not my America. I do not want this.

Host/Moderator (27:25)

Well, I think, and I think they saw the people of Minneapolis do this thing that trumped every phony depiction of masculinity. I mean, what Alex Preddy is doing, the reason he's in that scruffle is he's protecting a woman who's being pepper sprayed today. They go up on Capitol Hill and they can't say anything about how maybe they shouldn't be pepper spraying someone who's pinned down by three people. They see people out there in the bitter cold doing things far more dangerous, far more uncomfortable than anyone else is sort of has done en masse. I don't wanna say that no one else. But they see this moment where people are stronger than him and it just pops, that sort of phony, phony projection of strength and replaces it with something. And I love that at the Olympics, all the athletes that are speaking out about their love for the American people because, oh, I love it. I love all of it. I love all of them. I love all of them.

Nicole Wallace (28:13)

Have you seen the story about in Minneapolis, Another great Minneapolis story? You may have covered this. I don't know. There's the story that's happening. There are these white dudes in Minneapolis who are engaged in a sport that they call ice fishing, where they put Mexican flags on their pickup trucks to drive around the city to attract the ice agents, and the ice agents try to round them up and then they find out that they're white dudes. I think that is so fantastic and so creative and so, you know, that is. That. That's, you know, they're gonna write a good example of the way in which.

Host/Moderator (28:48)

Yeah, yeah. Now they're going to write books about Minneapolis.

Nicole Wallace (28:50)

And that's the masculinity flip.

John Heilman (28:52)

Correct?

Nicole Wallace (28:53)

That's the Minneapolis. That's the masculinity flip happening right there.

Host/Moderator (28:56)

That's right. That's right. And all we have to do is cancel the things Scott Galloway tells us to cancel. All right, Halman, you have to stick around. We need you at the table next time. When we come back, the Epstein scandal is threatening to take down a government, just not here. Why? The scandal is posing a grave threat to the Prime Minister of England where, as our next guest says, politicians still have shame and how what's happening in this country is the exception, not the rule. We'll bring you that story next. Looking for a Valentine's gift she'll truly love 1-800flowers.com knows what she wants. For 50 years, 1-800-flowers.com has helped guys get it right, delivering millions of fresh Valentine's roses nationwide with high quality bouquets guaranteed to last. Right now when you buy one dozen premium roses, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen for free. Valentine's is coming fast so don't wait until the last minute. Double your blooms today at 1-800-flowers.com sxm. That's 1-800-flowers. Com sxm.

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Host/Moderator (30:59)

As always seems to be the case, there are two sets of rules, ones for Donald Trump and the ones for everybody everywhere else. Case in point, this afternoon, developments in the Epstein scandal. Lawmakers chisel away at a Mount Olympus sized trove of documents, photos and videos now available to them. And as a result, Donald Trump's Commerce secretary acknowledges publicly meetings, visits with Epstein that contradict earlier public claims. But Donald Trump, who appears, according to Danny Bensky, more times in the files than Harry Potter does in the Harry Potter books. Well, let's do a compare and contrast with his counterpart in the uk, the Prime Minister Keir Starmer. Here, today's headlines across the Atlantic calls for accountability, calls for his resignation, and the aftershock of revelations that suggest the man he chose and appointed to serve in the position of ambassador to the United States was closer to Epstein than he originally understood or believed. Starmer has apologized for appointing that person. He fired the ambassador in question. But again, it is proved positive that Trump is not being held to the same degree of scrutiny by us, the American people from A new piece in the Atlantic titled British Politicians still have Shame. Quote, the reasons for the Labour Party leaders deepening plight are moral because decency and shame still matter in British politics, but they are also institutional. An American president is less democratically accountable than the British Prime Minister because partisanship has disabled the checks that the founders placed on the chief executive. I want to bring into our coverage staff writer for the Atlantic, Idris Kalun. He's bylined on that piece we just read from. Also joining us, BBC U.S. special Correspondent. Our friend Katie K is back in Hellman. Still here. Idris, take us through what you've written. It's painful, but. But really, really glaringly true.

John Heilman (33:02)

Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I think there are three reasons that what is happening on the other side of the Atlantic is so much different to what's happening here. The first is that Keir Starmer was not in a good position before all of this. He was particularly unpopular, and this has come as just another scandal among many reversals and background issues. But the second to go to the point of the piece, is that in the uk, scandals are different there. You know, for example, Liz Truss got into trouble for releasing a budget without the proper scoring from the Budget Office. You can imagine there's no such guardrail in American politics today. It was a big scandal when Boris Johnson had parties during COVID when the rest of the country was in lockdown. And of course, we had a very different reaction here. I think that's very operational. The third, though, is that in the UK there's a very strong incentive for politicians of the leader's party to try to remove them if they're unpopular because they could become the successor. That's not the case here. The idea was that, you know, presidents wouldn't be removed like a prime minister, but that Congress and Judiciary would exert a check in a way that isn't in the case in parliamentary democracies. But what we've seen, not just over Trump's presidency, but certainly exacerbated, is that that just doesn't work anymore. And so there are just fewer penalties for American politicians for associations with Epstein that are so different from what's going on with Starmer, where he's never met the man himself, but because he appointed the wrong person to be the US Ambassador, this could be the thing that tanks his premiership.

Host/Moderator (34:35)

Yeah, I mean, Idris, I think it's just a. Like, we're without metrics in our politics. Right. I mean, John and I have been talking for 40 minutes about how heinous the conduct has to be on the street for people to sort of wake up and begin resisting. Right. And it's within 17 days the killing of two American citizens. I mean, what you just said is so important that Starmer is under fire for appointing somebody else who had contact with Jeffrey Epstein. Donald Trump, as one of Epstein's victims said, is in the files more times than Harry Potter's in Harry Potter. I mean, what is the view of America from the uk?

John Heilman (35:19)

Well, you have a British member of the panel who can maybe answer that. But what I can say is that, you know, America used to aspire to a kind of moral leadership with the rest of the country, with the rest of the world. I mean, and what we've seen that Donald Trump has proven over and over again is that if you do not apologize for scandals and have the backing of members of your party in Congress, then you won't suffer the political consequences. And that's been true from, if you remember 10 years ago, the John McCain episode where, you know, he said that he likes soldiers who aren't captured. You know, that was a incident that proved to be kind of eternally recurring over the last decade in American politics. And again in the UK There are different incentives for the Prime Minister. You know, there's a bit more of an incentive to police your own leader in a way that just has proven to be non existent here. And, and in some way it applied to Democrats as well. When, when it was clear that Joe Biden was not capable of, of running to be president, you saw a very similar initial reaction from Democrats which was, you know, well, we, we don't want to be the ones who say that there's something wrong here.

Host/Moderator (36:36)

Katie K. Your thoughts on all of it?

Katie K (36:40)

I, I think the idea for many Brits that America wielded moral leadership at the moment, particularly perhaps during this administration, has kind of gone out the window. A while ago I spoke who's close to the prime minister just today who said to me that, you know, Keir Starmer is absolutely furious and that Peter Mandelson, the former ambassador to the, to the United States, lied point blank to him. I don't know, though, that we can claim in the UK that we have massive amounts of moral superiority just on the Epstein issues. I mean, you've seen people in Norway falling over. This former Crown Princess is now feeling that he, an ambassador has stepped down. A former prime minister is under investigation. We have, you know, issues clearly with our royal family. And the king has been heckled just twice recently over Andrew's ties to Epstein and what he's going to do about investigating Andrew's ties to Epstein. I do think, as Idris points out, some of this is structural in the uk that Keir Starmer came in, has, has failed kind of to get the UK economy turned around in the speed that people would have wanted. He was not particularly in a strong position and Parliament being the kind of snake pit that it is, there are people even with his own party who are kind of smelling blood and plenty of people who would like to replace him. So some of this is his own weakness as a Prime Minister. And maybe there's something in a social contract, Nicole, in, in British public servants and British public life, that they are under a huge amount of scrutiny for even tiny kind of infringements of expenses regulations. And so when something like this comes along, and these are people who are paid for by the British public, they don't have much tolerance and aren't prepared to cut this Prime Minister much slack.

Host/Moderator (38:30)

It is extraordinary when the King is fielding questions about the Epstein files. I want to ask you about that. No one's going anywhere. We see sneaking a short break. We'll all be right back. On the other side.

John Heilman (38:46)

Do you think that Britain's Royal Family has questions to.

Jason Crow (38:50)

Answer to your committee?

Nicole Wallace (38:51)

Well, we would love to hear, you know, from anyone. Obviously, I can't subpoena in foreign countries.

Jason Crow (38:58)

What questions does the King have to answer?

John Heilman (39:00)

Well, the King has to answer what he knew. The Epstein files could possibly bring down.

Host/Moderator (39:05)

A British Prime Minister. Why do you think that is happening there?

Katie K (39:10)

But it's hardly politically hurting an American President.

Host/Moderator (39:14)

Well, I think it's important to note that right now the Congress is controlled.

Katie K (39:19)

By Donald Trump's allies.

Host/Moderator (39:23)

We're all back. Heilman. It is, you know, when they look back, it is one of these moments they'll look at and say, how did the Epstein files come out with, you know, tens of thousands of mentions of Donald Trump and Kirsten Starmer was on the chopping block. I mean, your thoughts?

Nicole Wallace (39:40)

Well, to Katie's point before, if Keir Starmer was not so weak to begin with, he wouldn't have this problem. And there are, because of that parliamentary system, there are a lot of people in the Labour Party who were already looking at opportunities to try to take Keir Starmer down. And now they have a golden opportunity. So there's a lot of just kind of brass knuckles, snake pit politics going on in London. But I will say this 38,000 times. Donald Trump is in this code. At least I Heard a Democratic congresswoman yesterday cite that number, 38,000 mentions of Donald Trump in this cache of the Epstein files alone. And just makes you think, just imagine what the amount of Donald Trump mentions and Donald Trump content that's in the other 2 million or 3 million documents that they haven't released yet. It's astonishing to me. And Nicole, I gotta come back. I know you talked about Howard Ludnick earlier in the show, but I gotta say this. I mean, Donald Trump is probably the ultimate poster boy for this scandal. Jeffrey Epstein, off this mortal coil, Donald Trump, the questions around him, he still personifies, he's still the greatest mystery. What exactly did he do? What did he know, when did he know all that stuff? But Howard Lutnick, who, long after we all knew that we shouldn't put stuff in email, we shouldn't put stuff in text if we don't want us eventually to become public at some point, long after there was a cloud that existed, he put all this stuff in email, he put all this stuff in text, and then he went and did that podcast interview where he adopted that tone of self righteousness and lied through his teeth about his connections to Jeffrey Epstein. And I think that in that way that is about, not just about stupidity, although there's some stupidity there. And it's clear Howard Lutnick is not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. But he also, it's about impunity, a sense of impunity that he can get away with anything, that it's never going to get back to haunt him. Entitlement and impunity. That is what this Epstein scandal is most about. That is what we most learned about. I mean, it's obviously about a bunch of ugly sexual violence, but on top of that, it's about this whole cadre of people who felt so entitled and that and so free of the rules that they could do anything and it would never come back to haunt them. And then he walks up to this, to the, to this, to this hearing today and tells a story where he says, well, let me tell you, I went to the island. It was a family vacation. There was nothing untoward there. Again, we'll have a question, a good discussion about what? Hanging around with a convicted sexual predator, that's pretty untoward on the face of it. But who's gonna believe him now? Why should anybody credit a word that comes out of Howard Lutnick's mouth about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, given the gratuitousness of the lie he told before? I just don't believe a word he said. And I think that it's, it is just so emblematic of everything that this scandal is about. To me, he's the guy who tells the story in a lot of ways of what's so sick about this entire thing.

Host/Moderator (42:58)

Well, and Katty, it's what the victim's fear is still being withheld in the redactions where their personal information, identifying information, addresses has been released. And at least six, according to Ro Khanna on the show yesterday, men had their names redacted. I want to ask you what the investigations would look like, if there are any that ensue in the uk.

Katie K (43:24)

Well, I think, I mean there will be ongoing investigations. I mean there's going to be investigations that have already been announced into Peter Mandelson, the former ambassador. The King has said that there may have to be more investigations into his brother Andrew, who was a prince and is no longer a prince. So those investigations are taking place. I have little doubt to John's point that if Howard Lutnick was serving at the moment in the British government, he would be out of a job in a second. There is no question, I mean this question of impunity, actually, whatever the reasons are, whether it's systemic, whether it's to do with Keir Starmer's weakness, whether it's to do with some social contract or a higher standard of moral probity, it is true that there is an accountability in the UK that we are not seeing here. I mean, you've got three people in the British government who have already lost their job, including the ambassador. You've got a Prince demoted, you've got Prince William's staff being asked about this, you've got the King being heckled about this, there is a sense that people who are in positions of power are losing that power. And when you look at Howard Lutnick's performance and the fact that he can get away with a bald faced lie visiting Epstein four years after the conviction. That is, as you say, it's the victim saying this is our worst nightmare that we see the lies and none of these people are being held to account.

Host/Moderator (44:51)

Visiting him on his island where so many girls, nightmares were realized, with all of his kids and multiple nannies and then having enough cognizance to add in his testimony, I left with all my nannies. Well, what did you think was going on there? If you thought that you would be asked if you left any of them there? It's unbelievable. Maybe we'll have to marinate in that a little bit more Tomorrow. Idris, Katty, John, thank you all so much for being with us today and being part of our coverage. John, thank you for spending the hour with us. One more break. We'll be right back. Everybody's scared.

John Heilman (45:34)

I'm scared.

Host/Moderator (45:35)

Everyone's scared.

Katie K (45:36)

That's the whole thing, is that, you.

Host/Moderator (45:37)

Know, everyone thinks, like, I'm talking to.

Katie K (45:39)

You and I look so brave.

Host/Moderator (45:40)

I'm terrified. Yeah. I'm terrified, like, that one comment will be taken out of context and attacked by the right and the left or both or all or none. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like, you know, you take a chance. You take a chance and it is scary. Yeah. It is a scary place to stand in. And, you know, and I just hope if anybody takes anything away from our conversation is what I went back to in the beginning. Even Martin Luther King was scared. It's not what you do or don't do because you're scared. It's like it's baked in that we're all scared. It's a scary moment. And then what do you do while you feel afraid? Yeah. Yeah. Both. That is my dear friend, Rosie Perez. She is my guest on the newest episode of the Best People podcast. You can hear the entire conversation. She'll make you laugh. She'll make you cry. She talks about do the right thing. It's amazing. Just scan the QR code on your screen or download the Best People wherever you get your podcast. One more break. We'll be right back. The news is a lot, so we want to thank you for letting us into your homes.

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