Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (4:55)

Well, I think, first of all, they're shocking to me with regard to some of the language. If you actually see the native emails, as opposed to just summaries from other people, you'll see that there's just a lot of casual references to Donald Trump, a lot of unflattering references to him. But what you pointed out is disturbing, to say the least, that he, quote, unquote, knew about the girls, which is obviously opposite of what Donald Trump has told the rest of the world with regard to his association with Jeffrey Epstein. Now, in the 23,000 pages that were released by the Republicans. There's a lot to go through, and our staff is still going through it. But right now, the White House is actually scrambling to try to get people off the discharge petition before Adelita Grijalva actually signs it. So they obviously take this production very seriously.

Nicole Wallace (5:51)

Right now, let's go through some of the emails that are being made public for the first time. First of all, was there any resistance from Jeffrey Epstein's estate to complying with the subpoena from the Oversight Committee?

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (6:07)

Not that I know of. In fact, they're planning to produce more documents. They're producing them on a rolling basis to the committee. So I'm looking forward to seeing those as well.

Nicole Wallace (6:18)

So there's more.

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (6:22)

Correct? There might be a lot more. We just don't know. But it appears that they are cooperating and they are trying to produce it as quickly as they can.

Nicole Wallace (6:32)

Okay, so this is one of the emails that was released today. It was sent on December 16, 2015, Michael Wolff writing at 4:26pm on that day, quote, I think you should let him hang himself. If he says he hasn't been on the plane or to the House, then that gives you valuable PR and political currency. You can hang him in a way that potentially generates a positive benefit for you, or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt. Of course, it is possible that when asked, he'll say, Jeffrey is a great guy and has gotten a raw deal and is a victim of political correctness, which is to be outlawed in a Trump regime. What does that. How do you read that? What does that mean to you?

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (7:24)

Well, again, it would be good to get more context. And that's why, in part, we're asking for the rest of the Epstein files that are in the possession of the administration. But what it appears on face value to me is that Donald Trump was on his plane, was in his house, according to, you know, what is suggested by Mr. Wolf. And therefore, if he were to lie and say he was not on the plane or not in his house, then Jeffrey Epstein would have leverage over him, which Wolf is suggesting he could use in different ways to his advantage.

Nicole Wallace (7:57)

It's just so fascinating that Robert Mueller does an entire investigation about the Russian attack on 2016. You have all these questions of, of Donald Trump's businesses, you have all these red lines drawn and this. And Trump loses his mind, is just now going about the business, in his view of seeking retribution against anyone that investigated him. His own circle of people who associated and socialized with him, were talking about leverage over him if he lied about, quote, being on the plane or to the house. What does that say to you?

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (8:37)

What it says to me, birds of a feather flock together. I mean, Donald Trump associated with some highly irreputable people, including Jeffrey Epstein. Now, when you meet with these survivors, and I'm sure that you've met with some of them as well, the horrors that they went through as part of this child sex trafficking ring cannot be overstated. And so for the purpose of doing justice to them, we should absolutely get the rest of these Epstein files. In many cases, they don't even have access to the files that detail the trauma that they went through, which they have long forgotten because of that trauma. And we need those files to prevent this from ever happening again. And so that's why we need to press on a bipartisan basis to get to the bottom of this.

Nicole Wallace (9:23)

Nicole, what is the next step in getting the files released?

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (9:31)

Well, as you know, we have this bipartisan subpoena that is basically trying to compel the White House to produce more documents, but they've really slow rolled the production of these documents. And whatever they've produced so far is already in the public domain. We've seen this before. And so now this discharge petition which you referred to before is going to be important. Important in basically allowing us to vote on a law, a piece of legislation that could become law that would then force the White House to produce the rest of these files. And so that's why it's important that Adelita Grijalva gets sworn in, then she signs the discharge petition, and then we move forward.

Nicole Wallace (10:15)

I believe we just put a shot up on the screen. It is about to happen right now. Once she's sworn in and signs that petition, how quickly do you think it puts in motion an actual movement of files?

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (10:36)

Basically, it's about my understanding is it's a seven to nine day legislative day process to actually get it on the calendar and voted on in the House. Then it goes the Senate, of course, but then it's a date certain. It has to be voted upon at that point.

Nicole Wallace (10:53)

Okay, let's listen in.

Mark Epstein (10:55)

That you will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which you are about to enter, so help you God?

Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva (11:01)

I do.

Mark Epstein (11:01)

Congratulations, you're now a member of the 119th Congress.

Nicole Wallace (11:20)

That is now Congresswoman Grijalva. We interviewed her as Congresswoman elect. What way, other than a delay tactic for having that 218 signature, do you view the Speaker's Timing on swearing her in.

Narrator/Commercial Voice (11:37)

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (11:39)

I don't see it any other way. I think that the shutdown was conveniently used as a shutdown of the Epstein inquiry. And so now, as you know, we convene and the committees convene, the investigations continue. And so now the process of the investigating hopefully will go with all deliberate speed at this point.

Nicole Wallace (12:02)

Let me just show you one more thing before we let you go. We read that one of the emails from Michael Wolf to Jeffrey Epstein, quote, if he, Trump says he hasn't been on the plane or to the House, then that gives you a valuable PR and political currency. You can hang him in a way that looks potentially, that potentially generates a positive benefit for you. Or if it really looks like he could win, you could save him generating a debt, as you said. Clear, clear leverage being communicated between these two men. Here's what the White House press secretary said when she was asked politics point blank, if Donald Trump spent time at Jeffrey Epstein's house with a victim, which is something that Jeffrey Epstein himself says to Ghislaine Maxwell in an email. I have your statement about the new Epstein emails that have been released by House Democrats. Separate from why you believe the emails were made public, can you address their substance? Did the President ever spend hours at Jeffrey Epstein's house with a victim?

Lisa Rubin (13:07)

These emails prove absolutely nothing other than.

Nicole Wallace (13:10)

The fact that President Trump did nothing wrong. And what President Trump has always said is that he was from Palm beach and so was Jeffrey Epstein.

Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva (13:18)

Jeffrey Epstein was a member at Mar A Lago until President Trump kicked him.

Nicole Wallace (13:23)

Out because Jeffrey Epstein was a pedophile and he was a creep. Now, one thing we should point out is that Donald Trump didn't give that explanation that he was kicked out, quote, because he was a pedophile and a creep. What Donald Trump said was because he was, quote, stealing them from me. So Levitt and Trump are not on the same page about that relationship. But what do you think it says that she doesn't deny the substance of the emails between Epstein and Maxwell.

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (13:51)

Yeah, that was very interesting. She didn't say that he did not spend hours with this victim, whose name is redacted in the email. All she said is he did nothing wrong. Well, I mean, before, I don't think that he even admitted to being in the House. And so I think the story continues to evolve on Donald Trump's part. Shocker. I mean, he doesn't necessarily, you know, he's not candid when he's asked point blank questions. And so that's that's very disturbing. The whole set of statements about him, what he has said in return and how we continue to learn more, the more information that we get from the Jeffrey Epstein estate and other sources.

Nicole Wallace (14:36)

Congressman, thank you so much for your time. We're going to turn and listen in to the business on the floor and the swearing in of the latest member.

Narrator/Commercial Voice (14:44)

Of Congress do justice and accountability for hundreds of victims abused by rich and powerful men. She is a smart, principled fighter through and through. Mr. Speaker, it is my honor to welcome introduce to this chamber Congresswoman Adelina Grijalva.

Tara Palmeri (15:21)

Thank you.

Nicole Wallace (15:31)

Gracias.

Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva (15:33)

Thank you.

Tara Palmeri (15:37)

Thank you.

Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva (15:41)

Thank you. Muchas gracias. Thank you so much. Thank you to my colleague and friend, Congressman Stanton, for that kind introduction and to the entire Democratic delegation from Arizona and the delegation that stood here with me, that has supported me throughout this process. I rise today the proud granddaughter of a bracero, a hardworking Mexican immigrant who came to this country for a better life. And I stand as the proud daughter of a US Congressman, a man who spent his entire life fighting for justice, equity and dignity for the most vulnerable. From working as a vaquero to serving in Congress in just a single generation. That is the promise of this country. That is the America I want to raise my three beautiful children in. Adelina, Raul and Joaquin. Stand up. Stand up, baby.

Tara Palmeri (16:46)

Look at them.

Congresswoman Adelita Grijalva (16:57)

They, along with my amazing husband Sol and my wonderful mama Ramona, are here with me today. Muchas gracias por su Apollo y Tuamor. And thank you to la gente of Southern Arizona for making history, electing me, the first Latina, the first Chicana from Arizona to ever go to Congress. Este momento es historico para nuestra comunidad. Es uno nor sed la primera Latinas en representada risona nel congreso y les e seguro que un que soy la primera no serra la ultima. And while we celebrate this moment today, our American promise is under serious threat. Basic freedoms are under attack. Health care premiums are skyrocketing. Babies are being ripped away from their parents by masked agents. We can and must do better. What is most concerning is not what this administration has done, but what the majority in this body has failed to do. Hold Trump accountable as a co equal branch of government that we are. It has been 50 days since the people of Arizona's 7th congressional district elected me to represent them. 50 days that over 800,000 Arizonans have been left without access to the basic services that every constituent deserves. This is an Abuse of power. One individual should not be able to unilaterally obstruct the swearing in of a duly elected member of Congress for political reasons. Our democracy only works when everyone has a voice. This includes the millions of people across the country who have experienced violence and exploitation, including Liz Stein and Jessica Michaels, both survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. They are here in the gallery with us this evening. Thank you for being here. Just this morning, House Democrats released more emails showing that Trump knew more about Epstein's abuses than he previously acknowledged. It's past time for Congress to restore its role as a check and balance on this administration and, and fight for we the American people. We need to fight for our immigrant communities and veterans. We need to stand up for our public schools, children and educators. We need to respect tribal sovereignty in our environment. We need to stand up for LGBTQ rights because that's what the American people expect us to do, Fight for them. That is why I will sign the discharge petition right now to release the Epstein files. Justice cannot wait another day. Adelante mi gente munchas gracias. Thank you very much. I yield back.

Nicole Wallace (21:42)

That is Congresswoman Grijalva with a fiery speech there. Important importantly, calling out the Republican led Congress for, quote, failing to do their jobs, to be a check on the White House, but also acknowledging the presence there in the chamber of two survivors of Jeffrey Epstein's abuse. Jess Michaels, who we've interviewed on this program and on our podcast, and Liz Stein and announcing there in front of the country, in front of the American people and the world, that her first act, first official act as a congresswoman will be to become that 218th signature on the discharge petition, freeing up or putting in motion a process to release the Epstein files. Joining our conversation, Tara Palmieri. She writes the red letter on Substack and has hosted two acclaimed podcast series on this topic called Broken Jeffrey Epstein Empower. And the Maxwells, Lisa and John are here as well. Lisa, we've been watching together. When you take what was added to our understanding of just what it sounded like, the relationship between these two men and how disdainfully Epstein talks about Donald Trump in emails with his brother. And to Larry Summers. What do we know now that we didn't know 12 hours ago?

Lisa Rubin (23:02)

I think we know that Donald Trump had a lot to fear from Jeffrey Epstein. Exactly what that was, we still don't know. But repeatedly over a series of years, you have various people, including the journalists Michael Wolff and Landon Thomas, most especially kind of prodding him about what he knows at One point, Michael Wolff calls Epstein the Trump bullet in an email, suggesting you are the person who could take him out of this presidential race. That's in an email from 2016. So I think the first thing is that there are many people in his world that knows, knew that he possessed some knowledge about Donald Trump. And it wasn't just Glenn Maxwell and that 2011 email, that was among the first that the Democrats sent us. The other thing that I will say, Nicole, that you learned from this is exactly how Jeffrey Epstein sort of kept this a secret for so long, because he nurtures assumptions that people in his social circle have about his proximity to other power and he connects people. One good example that I can think of is he's introducing Michael Wolf to Ken Starr. At one point, Ken Starr was one of his lawyers, because Michael Wolff is writing a follow up book about Trump. And he does that frequently across these emails, trying to put people from his universe together, help them make money, help them make connections. But with all of them, he does less talking than he does listening. And he suggests that he's in agreement with everyone. So with his Republican friends, Trump's gonna be great for the economy. He listens to a New York businessman, for example, named Jonathan Farkas talk about how he gave money to Trump through Woody Johnson, who was the Brit British ambassador during the first administration. But when he's talking to people like Larry Summers or the former White House counsel Kathy Rummler, he takes a very different tone with respect to Trump, sort of suggesting to anyone who wants to talk to them, to him, I'm sorry, that he's in full agreement with their views, which is how Jeffrey Epstein, I think, over time, not only ingratiated himself with people, but grows to collect information about them that he knows could be damaging in their futures.

Nicole Wallace (25:05)

How much of the communications are between Maxwell, Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein?

Lisa Rubin (25:12)

I'm certainly not through all 20,000 pages. I have not yet seen another one between Jeffrey Epstein and Glenn Maxwell. Now, Glenn Maxwell has testified previously that by 2011, her relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, at least from a business perspective, was no longer as robust as it once was. This certainly puts the lie to that, as do a trove of documents that Bloomberg released earlier this year where they have the two of them talking about how to describe some of the accusers, including Virginia Giuffre. That comes across, of course, in today's email as well. They're not thinking about how to discredit Virginia. They're thinking about how to discredit Donald Trump. In the event that he were to come forward at a point in time that was inconvenient for Jeffrey Epstein as a litigant. Over time, he gets progressively more and more relaxed. So by 2016, 2017, long before Julie K. Brown and her legendary reporting hits his life, Jeffrey Epstein's a lot more cool, calm and collected about his past with Donald Trump and trying to weigh whether he wants to go forward and preempt, as Michael Wolff says, some of the questions that are being asked. But in 2011, he and Glenn Maxwell are sweating heavily what might happen. Why? Because Courtney Wild, who is one of his survivors, was suing under the Federal Crime Victims Rights act, saying that the sweetheart deal that Alex Acosta helped negotiate should be invalid because survivors like her were never consulted, much less told about it at the time. That means that Jeffrey Epstein is thinking to himself, oh, wow, they could prosecute me again. And that's why he and Glenn appear in that email. Again, we'd lack the context, but appear to be thinking about who else might know things about him and what do they have on those people that could be damaging to them.

Nicole Wallace (27:03)

Let me, Tara Palmeri, bring you in on this email from 2011. It is written in 2011 from Jeffrey Epstein to Ghislaine Maxwell, and it reads, quote, I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump, a victim whose name is redacted, spent hours at my house with him. Ghislaine Maxwell writes back, quote, I have been thinking about that. And then let me just play for you. It's a little creepy, but I want you to hear in Jeffrey Epstein's voice his answer in a 2010 deposition to the same subject. This is a question and answer from his 2010 depot.

Narrator/Commercial Voice (27:46)

Have you ever socialized with Donald Trump.

Nicole Wallace (27:49)

In the presence of.

Narrator/Commercial Voice (27:53)

Females under the age of 18?

Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi (27:59)

Though I'd like to answer that question, at least today, I'm going to have to assert my 5th, 6th and 14th amendment rights.

Nicole Wallace (28:08)

Terry, he's got his amendments down. Your thoughts?

Mark Epstein (28:14)

Yeah.

Tara Palmeri (28:14)

I mean, it would be hard to believe that at least answering that question, that President Trump was not around underage girls around Jeffrey Epstein. I mean, having known Virginia Roberts, she told me that Donald Trump, that she met Donald Trump through Jeffrey Epstein, that she thought that he was a nice guy, but that she had met him through Jeffrey Epstein. I know from Brad Edwards, who I believe is the lawyer asking that question in that deposition, that he interviewed Donald Trump, and Trump said that he went to Epstein's house and there were girls there. I don't think anyone can doubt or deny that Donald Trump was not fully aware of what Jeffrey Epstein was doing and what his M.O.

Commercial Voice (29:04)

Was.

Tara Palmeri (29:05)

And I think these emails just tie him closer and closer and make it the deniability even more difficult for him in this time when he's clearly sweating the White House, calling who should be their allies, like Lauren and Nancy Mace, and begging them not to vote for this discharge petition. So this is a really, really tense time. Sorry about. I think I may have lost you for a minute.

Nicole Wallace (29:48)

Now you're back. We're waiting for your lag to come in. Yeah, yeah, keep going.

Tara Palmeri (29:52)

Yeah, yeah, I was saying. So this is a really difficult time for him. He's obviously panicked. He's pressuring two members, Lauren Boebert and Nancy Mace. We don't know what they're going to do. Nancy Mace tweeted something out cryptically about of course the files were going to be released. I don't know what the Democrats are talking about. She also wants to run for governor in South Carolina and needs the endorsement of Trump to win the primary, or at least that's what one would think in terms of his golden endorsement. But they're breaking ranks. I mean, I spoke last night before these emails even released, were released to a House Republican source, and they said, yeah, they're breaking ranks already. They know this discharge petition will likely go through and they will have to vote Yay. They can't vote nay on this. It is just. It's just too hard of a vote to take even to protect Donald Trump.

Nicole Wallace (30:42)

So, Tara, something interesting. I mean, it's sort of in our brains now as true, but I wonder if we, if we sort of tease it out, if it really is that he. She needs his endorsement. A Republican primary. The only thing more popular among Republicans than Donald Trump is the release of the Epstein files. I mean, do you think that these emails could change the calculation, that the only thing riskier than crossing Trump's path is standing in the way of transparency on the Epstein case?

Tara Palmeri (31:16)

I think it's been one of the most politically challenging things for President Trump to handle. There has not been a story that has stuck to him like the Epstein story that I've seen in covering him, and I covered him in his first term. Even January 6th, it seemed to. People seem to move on from that. This is something that is just too difficult for him to shake. And because of the way they're handling it, because of the fact that it's a drip, drip, drip, and it's coming through whistleblowers, it's Coming through subpoenas from the estate. It's coming through leaks of his emails. It's gonna keep coming like there's more and more and more. You cannot be friends with a person for a full decade and not expect the ties to be exposed. So, you know, there are 20,000 emails. Everyone's going to go through them tonight. But there's more and there's more and there's more. And so I just think the way they're managing it is a complete disaster. Anyone in crisis management would say that.

Nicole Wallace (32:17)

Tara, have you heard from any of the survivors today in response to just the clear implication from Michael Wolf to Jeffrey Epstein in 2016 that, quote, if he, Trump says he hasn't been on the plane or to the house, that gives you a valuable PR and political currency, clearly trying to leverage any lies that they think Trump might tell.

Tara Palmeri (32:44)

I think it was really, really shocking for the survivors. I received some text messages from them and spoke to one of them today. This is a smoking gun to them. They don't see what more you would need. The UK Ambassador to the US had to resign for much less. And yet there really has been no accountability. It just feels like to them that what more do they have to say? How, how much more do they have to, you know, scream out into, into the, into the void? It feels like for a lot of them to get some justice. But, yeah, I mean, this morning they felt that it was, it was a huge moment and that it might actually lead to some justice or accountability. But we'll see what happens today, and if that discharge petition passes, we'll know soon enough, right?

Nicole Wallace (33:36)

Yeah, I mean, we're keeping our eyes on the happenings there. I want to bring John Heilman into this conversation around the politics. I mean, actually, let me first just do this window into these, these people, these characters that we've talked about, or I've talked, I think we've all talked about from a distance. I mean, to see the way they talk to each other is really, I'm just going to say, disgusting and chilling. One of them is a convicted child sexual predator and trafficker who raped girls as young as 14 and is accused of doing a lot more things to women that young. This is the kind of jokes that his brother sends him. Mark Epstein sent Jeffrey Epstein a meme that shows Donald Trump's face on it with the words, would you trust this man with your daughter? So that is sent to a deceased child sex trafficker from said deceased child sex trafficker's brother about Donald Trump. Heilman what does that do to your brain? It ties mine in all sorts of knots.

Narrator/Commercial Voice (34:55)

Well, I mean, Nicole, the notion that Donald Trump was an assorted figure when it came to how he treated women, that is not news. And so, you know, we have heard, you know, we know what he said on Howard Stern. You know, we know the stories about him at beauty pageants. We know him talking about, at one point about, you know, about if he were not her father, you know, by wanting to date his daughter. I mean, on the edges of Donald Trump's personal life, there has been a lot of seediness. All you have to do is for a long time, and all you have to do is look at the video. And we've talked about this before on the show. The video of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein in the middle of that party leering it at young women and Trump with his kind of white man's overbite, looking around the room in a kind of lecherous way. That look is the look that gets you the kind of comment that, you know, would you trust your daughter with this? With this man? I don't think that that. I mean, I'm not dismissing it. I'm just saying this is all part of a pattern. This is all part of a consistent picture of Donald Trump. This is the grab him by the pussy guy. I mean, this is. That is the guy we're dealing with here. And so I think the of the things, you know, the kinds of the language, the vernacular, the casualness, everything in these emails, if you look at all of them that I've had a chance, that not just the three main ones that were the first ones we talked about earlier today, but the ones that you've seen with him with a variety of different people, they all have this kind of quality to them, which is they send me. They don't so much seize up my brain as they send me racing off to take kind of like a Karen Silkwood shower. Like, I want to. Like, every time I come up against anything that's a direct source material thing that touches Jeffrey Epstein, I feel like I need more than a hot shower, more than a cold shower. I need like an acid bath to try to get all the scum off of my eyeballs and off of my. That might have dripped somewhere on my body as I absorbed these emails. It's just all so scummy. And it leads us to the question that we've been asking all along and Tara and others have talked about. It's like we still sit here and we say, what is it that Trump is trying to keep from us? What is it that Trump, what is it that's going to be, that's going to be revealed here? The pattern of behavior suggests it's really bad. We don't know what it is, but there is a pattern here. And he continues to take political water over the, he's continuing to take on political water with every day this just gets worse and worse. It's not going away, it's only going to get worse. There's only going to be more of these emails and yet he continues to stonewall in this completely self defeating, self destructive fashion. It just, the more he does it, the more it makes you think and the more of the kind of flavor and texture of these communications that we get, the more it makes you think. That gives you a sort of intuitive sense that yes, whatever the political damage is that will be inflicted on him from the full release of these files is really bad. And that's been kind of clear from his behavior for months. But it just continues to get more and more. Not directly and not dispositively but by implication. It just continues to get worse and uglier by the day.

Nicole Wallace (38:50)

It's just stunning to see how they talk amongst themselves. I think that is more than any single word or single email. Casualness of how they talk about what a liability Epstein is and how they're going to handle it like it's just a PR or a blackmail opportunity is just really craven. Tara Palmer, you know how much we appreciate you, but especially on these days. Thank you for making time for us. Lisa and John, stick around ahead for us. New reporting on how Trump is personally lobbying and reaching out to some of the GOP to remove their support, which is wildly supported by the American people, including among the MAGA base for releasing the Epstein files. Plus, we'll talk with a survivor about Steen's abuse. We'll get her reaction to all of today's developments and to Donald Trump and the White House response today when they called all of it, quote, a hoax. Quick break, Devin. White House continues after a short break. Don't go anywhere.

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Nicole Wallace (41:28)

We'Re all back, Lisa, John Holman and I, we've been joined by our friend and colleague, senior White House reporter Vaughn Hilliard, who's just off the phone with the person we were just talking about, Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein. We just put up the meme that Mark Epstein sent to Jeffrey Epstein. A picture. Let me put it up one more time. This is Donald Trump's face and it says, would you trust this man with your daughter? There it is. You just spoke with the man who sent that meme to his brother. What did he say today? Right.

Mark Epstein (41:59)

I'll actually be honest. I completely missed the segment because I was on the phone with him.

Nicole Wallace (42:02)

Oh, that's good.

Mark Epstein (42:03)

Just got up from off the street here and I think we should be very clear here. Mark Epstein is somebody who has said that he has known for decades now that his brother had a deep, close friendship with Jeffrey, with Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein. And he said, the way that he put it to me, when are people going to admit to themselves this guy President Trump is so full of, Every time he opens his mouth, he says he wanted to deny. Does this is an essay maybe? Does he wanted to deny that he had a relationship or a friendship with Donald Trump? As Mark tells me back in 1999. He was on the plane when they were having intimate conversation about women on a flight from Palm Beach, Florida, back up here to New York. He goes, he talked to his brother, somebody who he still cares deeply about even after his passing. And he says, at what point is, is there going to be a reckoning that Donald Trump just makes up stuff? And the number two part is that he's been very clear this is outside the scope of what we were talking about today. But he wants a full investigation into the death of his brother, saying he doesn't believe anybody at this point anymore. He said he did sit down. He just told me, with the House Oversight Committee here this summer. I said, did they call and ask you to come in and speak? He goes, no, I requested to. And he said he went into detail with staff, trying to get them to compel them to go even further beyond just the relationship between Donald Trump and other men that were a part of this cabal, and to really get at the fact of why did people want Jeffrey Epstein gone. This also goes to a conversation I had with Mark over the summer when he told me that Steve Bannon had 15 hours of footage of him interviewing Jeffrey Epstein. We have not seen that footage. And I think it's also worth noting that Michael Wolf has said that he has up to 100 hours of audio recordings with Jeffrey Epstein. We have not heard those audio recordings from either of the men. And that is what hits at the heart that Mark Epstein is so frustrated by, that the public, including him as the brother, do not have a full understanding of what the Department of Justice has or, frankly, what either of these two other men have.

Nicole Wallace (44:07)

I do not cover dead child sex traffickers often, so excuse this question if it's ignorant, but does Jeffrey Epstein's brother, Mark Epstein, believe the victims?

Mark Epstein (44:20)

I don't have a direct answer to that. He is somebody that. I should be clear. He just told me, I don't care about the Epstein files. I don't care about the nitty gritty details. He goes, he wants them all released. Okay, he said, but on the question.

Nicole Wallace (44:36)

Of transparency, he's an ally of the victim. Does he believe his brother was a monster?

Mark Epstein (44:40)

Absolutely. He believes he doesn't. How about this, Nicole? He doesn't want to get into those details. He truly says that he just cares about how his brother was killed. Again, on a very human level, to the extent that anybody can understand what it would be like to have somebody that trafficked children and young teenagers, I couldn't understand that. And I'm not going to be the one to put that on Mark Epstein. But he had a close relationship with his brother there, and he is on the side of having full transparency. And again, it hits at the heart where I think he so emphasizes that it was not just his brother, it was other people, too. And I think that's where we come back to whether it's Mark Epstein, whether it's the victims, whether it's members of Congress on Capitol Hill, from Marjorie Taylor Greene to Democrats, it is not just about Donald Trump. It is about them and all the other men that were a part of this being held to account. And that's why he wants the documents. And that's why he was so invested in his frustration that Donald Trump's denials are just, at this point, blasphemy, because it runs afoul of the lived experience that led his brother into jail for a life sentence and then, as he says, his death.

Lisa Rubin (45:51)

Nicole, can I add to that for a second? Because Mark Epstein is not alone in his frustration. When you look at the files, and that's where I've spent most of my time today, that frustration is also palpable on behalf of other people who knew Jeffrey Epstein a whole lot less well than his brother. Landon Thomas, for example, the New York Times reporter was the one who wrote that infamous 2002 profile of Jeffrey Epstein in New York Magazine, where Trump gave the quote that Jeffrey enjoys beautiful women perhaps as much as I do, many of them on the younger side. That's a quote that we have talked about extensively ever since. And I'm reading right now in the files today an email exchange between Lyndon Thomas and Jeffrey Epstein where he says, everybody and their mother is calling me because of that quote. And he says, you know, I am serious man. For the good of the nation. Why not try to get some of this out there? I would not do it myself, but I would pass it on to a political reporter. And then Landon Thomas is showing Jeffrey Epstein another story from another publication in which Alan Garten, who was the general counsel of the Trump organization, says Mr. Trump's only connection with Mr. Epstein was that Mr. Epstein was one of thousands of people who has visited Mar? A Lago. That's it. Mr. Trump has never been accused of having any involvement or even having any knowledge of any of Mr. Epstein's conduct by anyone. What does Landon Thomas say to that? Look at these lies. And then Jeffrey Epstein responds with a picture and he says, this is my 20 year old girlfriend in 1993 that after two years I gave to Donald what kind of people talk about giving a person with whom they're in a romantic relationship to someone else. It's a very sick, perversely transactional way about talking about anyone, much less a young woman. I should note that the woman who's named here is also alleged to be the woman in the picture with the check that came out at the time of the birthday book. You'll recall that there's a picture of someone giving a check to someone else for $20,000. I believe the check is being written to Jeffrey Epstein from Donald Trump. And that woman, whose name I'm not going to disclose here, is apparently in that picture. Again, the transactional nature of the way they are bartering and exchanging women between them is grotesque. And so Mark Epstein is hardly alone in being upset that the truth has not come out.

Nicole Wallace (48:17)

I have to sneak in a break. I want to bring Heilman back in and I want to do one other thing. On the other side, I want to show you the extraordinary amount of public support for something that Republican Thomas Massie says in terms of this discharge petition passing, quote will happen. We'll all be right back. On the other side.

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Nicole Wallace (50:12)

We're back with our tour de force. Vaughn, John and Lisa. So Heilman, here's what this is, what Republican Congressman Tom Massie said, quote, some Republican members who are not signers of the petition have told me they will vote for the measure. When the vote is called, I suspect there will be many more. And this is where the public is on this. For Republicans thinking about the vote, this is how easy it is. 81% of all Americans think that Donald Trump is hiding information about the Epstein case. 59% think Attorney General Pambandi is 49% believe FBI Director Kash Patel is 47%. This is before he blocked Grijalva. This is several weeks old believe Speaker Mike Johnson is 34% blame federal bureaucrats. 16% blame congressional Democrats. Your thoughts on the political gravitational pull of this discharge petition Now?

Narrator/Commercial Voice (51:06)

My thoughts, Nicole, are that Thomas Massie was, on the basis of the numbers you just were citing and the way in which this case, the way in which this issue is played on the right, that Thomas Massie was right about that before last Tuesday, after last Tuesday, when the lame duckness of Donald Trump and his reaction to what happened on Tuesday, where he's done none of the things that a president who had received the kind of repudiation that he'd gotten should be doing, accepting for affordability, instead of he's, he's throwing congressional Republicans on the fire. I think the loyalty to Trump is finally about to break. And we're going to see it not across the board, not on everything, but on something like this, Trump's the number of Republicans who are going to vote for this dish parts petition is larger today than it was two weeks ago. And I don't think it's going to have any problem picking up the four Republican senators that it needs to get through the Senate.

Nicole Wallace (52:07)

So interesting. I agree with you, Vaughn. Was the White House aware of their new reality?

Mark Epstein (52:14)

I think that it's quite apparent when Lauren Boebert comes to the White House and effectively dismisses their efforts to get her name off the discharge petition. I think that this is where the concern is even heightened. You have the Senate, you have the midterm elections. And why is this political? As somebody who likes to think that not Everything should be political or be made political. It's political because the Republicans have made the idea that there is a sex trafficking cabal of Americans led by largely Democratic officials over the course of the last decades. And it was them in 2020 and in 2022 that made this an issue and compelled the base to believe that.

Nicole Wallace (52:52)

Such a good point. Trump is qanon into his coalition and now they don't want to release files about a known and convicted and dead child sex trafficker.

Mark Epstein (53:01)

Correct. Suddenly it's a question of just how far does this reach? And you told people that you were going to be the one to release the files and get down to the nitty gritty of this and reveal that cabal. And now you're the one that is not pushing for the transparency that could reveal some actual substance. That's a tough political message.

Nicole Wallace (53:18)

You guys are the best. John Heilman, von Hillier, Lisa Rubin, thank you all so much. Up next for us, we'll have an opportunity, opportunity to speak today with an Epstein survivor. The next hour deadline White House starts after a short break. Don't go anywhere.

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