← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Where is the line for Republicans?”
00:40:55
Nicolle Wallace, John Heilemann, and Rev. Al Sharpton discuss if Republicans have a line when it comes to Donald Trump. In the wake of the war in Iran, it seems as if the cracks in the MAGA coalition are beginning to widen.
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- [00:01]
Nicole Wallace
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Chuck Todd
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- [01:03]
Mark Elias
It's terrifying. And it's exactly the opposite of what
- [01:06]
John Heilman
we were told leading into this administration, that it's going to be America first, right?
- [01:11]
Nicole Wallace
And no more unnecessary foreign wars.
- [01:16]
Chuck Todd
Hi again everyone. It's now 5 o' clock in New York. For the better part of the last 10 years, we've asked again and again and again and again. Where is the line for anyone who's backed Donald Trump in the past, especially someone like Joe Rogan, whose support may have won him the presidency? For that matter, where's the line for Republicans? Is there any point where they'll throw up their hands and say, lie to me once, shame on you. Lie to me 700 times and I'm out. Donald Trump went too far this time. We haven't seen it. That's why we keep asking the question. For so long, we a lot of us, including me, have wondered if there is a line. But this afternoon, weeks into a war initiated by Donald Trump, who swore, who ran three times on keeping us out of War, is exactly like this one. It does appear that the faintest, faintest line is starting to appear, at least for some Republicans and Trump supporters and for the American people more broadly. It runs straight down the middle of Donald Trump's powerful political coalition, the one he just assembled in 2024. Even a pair of old Fox News colleagues watch. I mean, Sean Hannity is Lindsey Graham by a different name.
- [02:26]
Mark Elias
It's amazing to me to watch them cheerlead this.
- [02:30]
Chuck Todd
I mean, we've got seven US personnel dead, we've got a girls school, 175 young girls dead in Iran. And there's serious dispute. We'll get into who's behind that. But there's only serious dispute because the president is now saying that it wasn't us, but his own defense secretary over his shoulder is saying it's under investigation. The defense secretary, by the way, another former Fox News colleague. It's not just FOX News, though, and it's not just a Joe Rogan thing, either. Right now, all Americans are grappling with the concern, the fear, the idea of another prolonged war. Images of deadly strikes conducted in our names as Americans broadcast on our airwaves is something that's starting to sink in on day 14, most notably in this case, the sort of slop posted by the White House's social media pages. Real world video, acts of war, life and death stuff interspliced with clips from movies like Tropic Thunder, directed by Ben Stiller, who objected to the use of Tropic Thunder earlier this week publicly or video games interspliced with images of war or NFL hard hits. Speaking of which, another day, another former NFL star actively and publicly distancing himself from the use of the symmetry that features him in one of these videos. Here's former Pittsburgh Steelers star Ryan Clark. I'm disappointed that because for one to
- [03:59]
Michael Feinberg
have Tropic Thunder and football highlights on a video about war is one of the more insensitive things that I've ever seen. There are families here in our country whose loved ones have decided to give
- [04:16]
Chuck Todd
their life to fight for our rights and our freedoms who don't see war as a sport.
- [04:23]
Michael Feinberg
War doesn't deserve a highlight film for Tropic Thunder to be a part of it. War is not a comedy.
- [04:29]
Chuck Todd
And for these people to be risking
- [04:32]
Michael Feinberg
their lives not for our safety as much as for someone else's agenda, for our regime to be as unserious, as unprofessional, as laughable and as illegitimate as our leadership is right now is embarrassing.
- [04:55]
Chuck Todd
Again, that's Ryan Clark, a former Pittsburgh Steelers superstar, calling the Trump administration unserious and unprofessional and laughable. That's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite friends. PAC News senior political columnist and national affairs analyst John Heilman's back with me at the table, host of Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpman is here. I actually, I want to show you more of what he said because it's really important. Here's more. Ryan Clark on the use of his sort of football highlights in propaganda videos for the war.
- [05:38]
Michael Feinberg
I'm not asking them or I don't
- [05:40]
Chuck Todd
care that they take it down. I don't care how long it's up.
- [05:42]
Michael Feinberg
I don't care that they didn't ask
- [05:43]
Chuck Todd
me to do it. Because what I've learned about our leadership now is they don't care about what we think, they don't care about what we say. It's about what one person wants.
- [05:55]
Michael Feinberg
And anything different, then the thing that they're supporting is wrong, and it'll be attacked.
- [06:03]
Chuck Todd
I knew that in 16, I knew that in 20, and I knew that in 24.
- [06:09]
Michael Feinberg
And what's transpired in 25 and 26 has made me feel more correct than ever.
- [06:16]
Chuck Todd
So I would never have agreed to that.
- [06:19]
Michael Feinberg
I don't back this.
- [06:21]
Chuck Todd
And many of us don't believe this is a war we should be a part of. I guess this is so important because it's clear from the outcome of the last election that voices in the political arena had only gone so far in warning about what Trump would do and what this would mean. And to now see such powerful and public dissent and pushback from some of the most respected and revered athletes feels like a new chapter.
- [06:50]
Nicole Wallace
It does feel like a new chapter and a welcomed new chapter. And not only speaking out loudly and clearly. What they're raising it to is a whole nother issue to a moral level. They're not even arguing the politics of it. They're talking about the morality. People are being killed, children in schools killed. I don't want to be identified with that. And it's embarrassing to the country. But it's also, he. He used terms like laughable and to ridicule them. Somebody like Ryan Clark, who's a former NFL star, and to take that and say, I don't care that they use. I'm not trying to even sue for money. I'm trying to raise the moral issue of what this country is supposed to stand for. And for him to articulate that I'm for those that went out and risked their lives for our freedoms and for us as a country. So I'm not even anti military. I'm anti being used in this way. So you can't dismiss him as he's some anti war nut or that he's some partisan person. Here's a star athlete saying, these people put their lives on the line. This is not a game. I play the game. This is not a game. We should not be portrayed like it is a game. And there's a moral level to this country supposed to uphold. And I think that I don't want to be part of sanctioning any lowering of that moral standard.
- [08:20]
Chuck Todd
Heilman also to say this is I'm not playing whack a mole with Donald Trump who loves to get into little, you know, sort of slap downs. I'm not even calling them to take it down because he's able to make the bigger point there. He didn't care what he says. He sort of understands Trump better than some of us who've been covering him. Right. He won't take it down because I said so. But I'm still going to use my platform to articulate how immoral and wrong this is. These are images of war of people's lives and in some instances, the moment when their lives end.
- [08:53]
John Heilman
So, I mean, let's start with the fact that, you know, the way that those images have been used is wrong and appalling. And you've heard there's been reporting over the course of the span of this still, we've got two week war now that we have in Iran where generals and retired generals have been speaking out about the fact that they are appalled by it. And so we've seen some of that that's been reported. But in terms of having any kind of broad platform, broad impact on an audience, someone like Ryan Clark has a much bigger platform than generals who are speaking on background to the New York Times or the Washington Post, I will say this part of this larger discussion we have all the time, Nicole, you know, my view, which is that this, the cultural realm is upstream from politics and it's more important the way in which people think about politics is largely not in the context of how we cover Washington, D.C. and how cable news does it and so on. I will say Ryan Clark is someone who has been very outspoken over the course of his time as an analyst. He's been on ESPN for some number of years and has generated a fair amount of controversy. He is pretty reliably progressive and I don't mean that to say that he's know a Democratic hack or something, because he's not. But I don't think there's going to be there's been backlashes to other things that he said in the past that he's not someone who's going to win over some portion of the MAGA base. Right. He's not someone who's going to bring across the line anybody who was ardently pro Donald Trump in 2024 and now is going to listen to Ryan Clark and say, oh, well, you know, that's. Now that I hear Ryan Clark saying this, I'm now going to switch my point of view. I think that there's an atmospheric thing that's going on when you start to see big figures in culture all come around to one point of view. And I know that's what you want to get to more broadly, but I think in his case, you've got this very interesting that in media platforms where political commentary is always controversial, you're hearing that kind of commentary. And I do think it's important, but it's gotta be part of a bigger mosaic if it's gonna drive the kind of defections from Trump that'll be necessary to really change the politics in the country.
- [11:05]
Chuck Todd
Yeah, I mean, you're getting at something important. It's not that this is someone. I mean, Joe Rogan is something different than this. Right. Joe Rogan was a backer who was so influential with millions and millions of listeners may have pushed Donald Trump over the edge. This is just a political story so big it is now in a space that is usually dominated by other things. And on that, I want to read this reporting from the Washington Post about former NFL players speaking out about the use of this video for that play to be associated with bombing human beings makes me sick. Kenny Bell told the Washington Post, quote, I don't want anything to do with images like that. I'm at a loss for words. Mason Foster said this week, it's a strange feeling seeing those clips like that. I don't think anything going on in the world today is as simple as a great football play or a hit. I'm still wrapping my head around it. When people are losing their lives, I don't think it can compare to a game. Both Bell and Foster said they believe the White House should remove the video, and if it doesn't, the rights holders, including the NFL, should achieve removal through legal means. The White House declined to comment. Quote, I don't think I'm even allowed to use that clip because I don't own it, bell, one of the players, said. So I would like the NFL, the networks, to treat the White House like they treat me, to reinstall some faith in these institutions. You have to start holding our leaders accountable. The players are getting at something else. And I think this is the bigger piece, that they're making an argument that I would agree people in political spaces have failed to land with the American people, that Trump and the White House are playing by rules that they themselves are not allowed to play by, that they're Using their images of their accomplishments on the football field to sell a war that is wildly unpopular. And in doing so, they are doing something that. That the players themselves aren't allowed to do. That feels like a powerful indictment both of the practice of marketing a war in which you go, I mean, all of this is about the moral vacuum being pointed out by football players and being filled by football players,
- [13:05]
Nicole Wallace
right?
- [13:06]
John Heilman
Well, 100%, Nicole. And I think that point is super important. And just for anybody who doesn't realize there is no more powerful force in American culture than the NFL and there is no more, more restrictive a media operation or a content operation than the NFL in terms of using its footage. You cannot find NFL footage just floating around on YouTube. And there's a reason they enforce their copyrights, their exclusivity in a brutal, brutal way. You'll get a takedown notice if you put up something of theirs. If you clip something and put it on YouTube or put it on Instagram, you'll get it. You'll find that you'll get that thing pulled down very quickly because the NFL enforces its rights over its content intensely. And yet, in this case, Roger Goodell is not doing that. And I think the players are raising a question here, which is which get. Which should provoke mainstream media to go and call the commissioner's office and say, a bunch of your players are pointing out that they couldn't use their own images on their own social media feeds. Commissioner Goodell, what are you doing letting the President of the United States and his administration use that same material to sell a war, and a war, for that matter, that a lot of the players disagree with and a lot of the people in America disagree with. That is a point that gets to the larger theme of the way in which big media, corporate media have been complicit with this administration. Sometimes it's really obvious, Nicole, because they show up at the White House in black tie and they write a big check for the inauguration or they. They capitulate about a lawsuit. But this is the more subtle kind of complicity when, when the NFL allows the White House in the most tendentious way possible, to use their content to.
- [14:58]
Nicole Wallace
For.
- [14:58]
John Heilman
For propaganda purposes and doesn't do what it would do to anybody else, including their own players, which is say, take that down right now or we're going to sue you.
- [15:10]
Chuck Todd
Rav.
- [15:11]
Nicole Wallace
I think that John hit it right on the head. The fact that we are seeing this kind of disregard for, where even athletes who use their talent has generated and continued the generating of a sport and that it could be used for such an immoral thing as killing children in a war that no one understands why we're there. We were not under attack one minute we're told, I think they were getting ready to come with an atomic bomb. Oh, I just had a feeling. Now we're told we'll end it when I feel it in my bones. And to use athletes to propagate that when they can't even sell a T shirt of their own liking. Why would you want to be identified with the killing of school children in a foreign land? And you can't even sell a T shirt in your hometown. And they're right to tell the NFL, you cannot use me to be in compliance with this kind of or in connection in any way partner with this kind of behavior.
- [16:16]
Chuck Todd
Yeah, and it's a good point. We'll put it in a call to the press office and see what they have to say about. Also, I mean, I'll wonder forever sort of chicken or egg if Joe Rogan and Megyn Kelly and Tucker Carlson being so stridently opposed makes it easier for people, whether they've been pro or anti Trump, to call them out.
- [16:37]
Nicole Wallace
You know, it doesn't hurt. And I think that that. Or is it the other way around when you have NFL stars standing up, does it make it easier for Joe Rogan?
- [16:45]
Chuck Todd
Whatever it is, it's a permission structure to push back against this president in a way that we haven't seen in 14 endless months. John and Rev, stick around. When we come back, Kash Patel has already slashed hundreds of experts at the FBI, leaving us more vulnerable to possible retaliation by Iran. So that's why it is difficult to believe who he's turning to to help him at this dire moment for our country. We'll have that reporting next. Also had you might not hear much about it, but Democrats are on a big time winning streak, flipping a whopping 28 Republican seats in state legislature since Donald Trump returned to office. Voters, even those in deep red corners of deep red states, clearly aren't buying the stuff Donald Trump is trying to sell them. That may explain why he's so anxious to change the rules and try to rig the midterms. Our friend Mark Elias joins us later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.
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John Heilman
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Take her from the younger generation. We're innovators, giving a couple Blue Apron meals around. Not the worst idea. Get $50 off your first two orders, plus free shipping with code STIR50 Terms and conditions apply. Visit blue apron.com terms for more. How out of touch are they? It's a question we try to answer here every day, so stay with me on this one. This is another one of those perplexing, eyebrow raising kind of headlines generated by none other than than FBI Director Kash Patel. He has enlisted the help of UFC cage fighters to train FBI agents this weekend at their academy in Quantico, Virginia. Kash Patel is possibly feeling pressured to do something after abusing FBI resources and taxpayer dollars to fly to the Olympics and guzzle beer and then fire dozens of FBI agents and experts with experience in counterintelligence in Iran. But turning to the ufc, run by a close friend of Donald Trump's, is something that Kash Patel brought up on one of his first video calls as director of the FBI. And according to the Wall Street Journal. Many officials thought that he was joking. Kash Patel wasn't joking. He doesn't really seem like a joker, does he? Patel, sports obsessed and inexperienced as he is with this whole leading the world's premier law enforcement agency thing, sees this weekend as a, quote, tremendous opportunity for the FBI agents where they will, quote, learn and train with some of the greatest athletes on earth. I want to bring in former assistant special agent in charge at the FBI and national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg. John, on the rover here, I actually think physical fitness is super important and I want law enforcement to be healthy and strong. But I think that now that we're at war with Iran, I would feel even better if they were spending the weekend with the world's preeminent cyber, counterterror and Iran experts. It seems like even if you want to save face and say this is such a good idea, we're going to do it later. But current events have me prioritizing something else that might be a more elegant way to handle this.
- [21:32]
Michael Feinberg
It wouldn't be entirely true though, because it's not a good idea, not remotely and not in any fashion. And I say that as somebody who actually quite likes fighting in hand to hand combat. I spent the better part of the decade as an amateur boxer in Chicago competing. But when FBI agents are training to fight, they're doing so with a purpose. They're doing so to effect arrests or to end a fraught situation. And when they are engaged in a fight, their goal is emphatically not to wrestle somebody to the ground and engage in three minute rounds of ground fighting. Their goal is to momentarily incapacitate the subject, create space between them so that they can safely draw their weapon and apprehend the individual in the normal means of arrest. They're not in a cage where there is a geographical limit to the fight. They're not trying to score points or entertain an audience. They're trying to get an important job done. And as a result, the FBI has actually developed a really elaborate hand to hand combat defensive tactics curriculum that agents have been trained on for decades. And like I said, it is based on safely effectuating an arrest, not proving how tough you are in trying to get somebody to tap out.
- [23:04]
Chuck Todd
Michael Feinberg, this story feels important for reasons that are uncomfortable, right? I mean, it's uncomfortable to denigrate the FBI at a moment. We need them so much. You want to protect the people that know that this is asked backwards. I mean, I'm at loss for a technical term for this, but you also I think on the Trump piece, you start to wonder, like, how much embarrassment can he tolerate? And at a time when he's taken the country to war. And I wonder what you sense in terms of any pressure coming up from this sort of workforce inside the FBI with the folks that remain.
- [23:44]
Michael Feinberg
Well, I would push back on the notion that this administration can be embarrassed, but everybody with whom I speak in the FBI, which is still a very considerable number of people and within its alumni community, everyone's aghast at this. Like, this is insane. And this is what happens when you have an administration, both at the FBI and with the country as a whole, that never themselves have engaged in the hard work of public service. Kash Patel has no idea what it's like to be in a fist fight. Donald Trump has no idea what it's like to go to war. So they're basically just doing things that they think like the cool guys who do this sort of thing would do. I don't know anybody in the FBI who wanted to be an ultimate fighter. We wanted to protect our communities. And learning how to inflict violence was a necessary part of that. But you did it because it was part of that larger goal. You didn't do it as an end unto itself. And whether it's Pete Hegseth's obnoxious tattoos in tacky pocket square, whether it's Donald Trump talking belligerent even though he never engaged in arms himself, or whether it's cash Patel demanding that the hostage rescue team give him an equipment cage and locker in their facility, like, these people are play acting, which would be fine if they were doing it with their own resources, on their own time, but they're supposed to be serving the country. And every time they engage in silliness like this, they make it more difficult for the people who actually are serving.
- [25:33]
Chuck Todd
And the problem is that there's no reverence for the people who've done what they haven't done. Right. The problem with Kash Patel is there are many problems with Kash Patel, but chief among them seems to be that instead of sitting back and having reverence for the men and women of the FBI who have, in the years after 9, 11, thwarted terror attacks and cyber attacks and protected us from awful, awful things without any credit, without a parade, he's turned the building upside down to shake out anyone that actually did their job. I wonder if you think, at a time when every single person worries that an already sort of heightened threat environment is hypercharged by the war in Iran and by the rise in anti Semitism, if there is any sort of, if there's any outside dynamic that could shake him out of that leadership post, I mean, do you think there's anyone, do you see anyone on the, on the map that could, that could sort of wake them up and say, this is no way to run the world? I guess I'm answering my question as it's spilling.
- [26:42]
Michael Feinberg
Yeah, Yeah. I don't think. I don't think so. Look, if you canvassed anyone I ever supervised in my own career, I hope what they would tell you is that when I first came into any management or leadership position, the first thing I did for at least a couple of months was shut up and listen. You don't change things, you don't break things until you know how they work. And what we've seen with the FBI is what we've seen with usaid. It's what we've seen with doge, it's what we've seen with doj, which is people come in intent on remaking the organization in a way to please the president without even a baseline understanding of what its function is, who it serves or how it has worked in the past. And, you know, the price of everything is going up. We're enmeshed in a war of our choosing. We have alienated every ally in the world. The economy is not doing well. DOJ is losing indictments at a rate that is historically more than notable. Like hopefully the average citizen, including those who originally supported this administration, is starting to wake up and see that to use an old firearms term, they couldn't even hit the side of a barn door.
- [28:16]
Chuck Todd
Michael Feinberg and John Heilman, thank you both for starting us off today. The Rev sticks around a little bit longer. When we come back, why Donald Trump and Republicans are so worried about all of that when it comes to voters rendering a judgment in the midterms and why they're trying to rig those midterms instead. The amazing wind streak Democrats are on flipping seat after seat after seat in Republican districts and state legislatures across the country. We'll tell you about that as well. Mark Elias joins us. Don't go anywhere.
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Visit betterhelp.com for 10% off as Donald Trump's one time campaign promises to lower inflation and the price of groceries and to never again involve the United States of America in a foreign war, take a backseat to spiking oil prices and bombing Iran, voters are making their objections to his presidency heard loud and clear at the ballot box every chance they get. Politico reports this Quote Democrats have flipped 28 Republican held seats in state legislatures across the country over the last 14 months, a sign that the GOP is indeed at risk of losing control of the House and maybe even the Senate in the midterms. Democratic wins have come even in deep red states including Texas, Arkansas and Mississippi, and often by margins that make Republican leaders uneasy. Quote I'm ringing the alarm bell, one GOP political consultant told Politico, with even Trump's own backyard not safe from a potential midterm backlash, Politico writes this quote Florida Democrats are trying to flip the Palm beach statehouse district that includes Mar A Lago this month in a race that could test President Trump's Sunshine State influence and and symbolically hit him on his home turf in response to a potential midterm blue wave. Donald Trump isn't trying to win voters over or pivot away from his deeply unpopular agenda. Instead, he's looking to cheat, to rig the rules of the game entirely, pushing the Republican Party to make it harder to vote and attempting to exert federal control over elections. I want to bring in voting rights attorney, founder of Democracy Docket Mark Elias is here. The Rev is still with us. Mark, I feel like there have been some pretty big developments on this front this week, and I just wanted to sort of wrap them all together into one idea, as you always do for us. Where do the two sides stand? Sort of the pro democracy side and the Trump side in this effort this week?
- [32:02]
Mark Elias
Yeah, so this week has been a good one for the pro democracy side. And we can see the cracks forming in the Trump side, but that is usually a prelude to something worse. Now why do I say that we continue to see the the Department of Justice flail about in its effort to obtain voter files from all of the states, Donald Trump has thrown a series of tantrums aimed at Senate Majority Leader John Th. But Thune has been clear he does not have the votes to pass the mass voter suppression bill, the SAVE Act. Lisa Murkowski, Senator from Alaska, Republican came out against it. And you know, so watching the, watching Donald Trump, you know, throw his tantrum and John Thunes shrug his shoulders is all good for the pro democracy side. The reason why I say we got to watch out is that the way that Donald Trump operates is he, he tells a lie, then he escalates the lie. Then there is usually some effort that involves the legal process, in this case legislation in the courts. But when that fails, he doesn't stop at that point. He just disregards the law and he incites violence. And look, we have seen that take the form of January six, we've seen that take the form of ICE agents and CPV agents in Minneapolis. And so, you know, we're definitely not out of the woods as we head into the, you know, the back half of this year heading towards the midterms.
- [33:28]
Chuck Todd
Let me ask you a question about that specifically. I mean, when Trump tells the lies about 2020, his following hasn't been betrayed the way Tucker Carlson and Megyn Kelly would argue and Joe Rogan would argue that the MAGA movement has been betrayed and Steve Bannon, I mean they feel a betrayal that is emotional and visceral in a way that nothing else, not even the Epstein files, because it was so clear at the beginning why he was covering those up. Right. He was in them 38 or I don't know, tens of thousands of times. What do you think that means for his efforts to do that last thing you described?
- [34:09]
Mark Elias
Yeah, it should be a real red light flashing for everybody. I've said this before, Nicole, and I've written about this in democracy docket that the only non compromising position in maga, like the one thing that everyone in the MAGA movement has to agree to is election denialism. So we're seeing it now in Iran. Right. You have some elements of MAGA that are pro war. You have some elements of MAGA that are completely appalled by what we're seeing. And we saw that with the tariffs, frankly, where there were some elements of MAGA that thought the tariffs went too far and others thought they didn't go far enough. Donald Trump allows a lot of range of opinions on almost everything in the MAGA movement. The only exception to that is a lot election denialism starting in 2020, going through 2022, 2024, and now 2026. And that's why it's the most dangerous, because there is no internal dissent to push back or say you went too far. Like there was, by the way, in immigration, right? There was a pushback to say maybe you went too far. Who in the Republican Party today, I ask you to name someone in good standing in the MAGA movement would be the person who stands up and says, no, the lie is too far. No. The seizing of ballots is too far. No, this is too much. I'm reminded of the passage from Solzhenitsyn's the Gulag Archipelago, where Stalin gives a speech and everybody has to stand and clap. And a minute goes by and 2 minutes go by and 10 minutes go by and 11 minutes go by and everyone's afraid to be the last one, the first one stop clapping. Finally, a local businessman stops clapping and sits down, and the next day he's arrested and the police officer says, the lesson for you is never be the first one to stop clapping. And I think that that is the problem we have when it comes to the maga, the movement and election denialism. None of them want to be the one to stop clapping first.
- [36:04]
Chuck Todd
And I guess the political opportunity rev for Democrats is that the clapping coalition, if you will, is a shrinking number of Americans. It's why Democrats are flipping red pockets in red parts of red states.
- [36:20]
Nicole Wallace
I think that is absolutely right. When not only is the crowd shrinking that is going for that, they're shrinking for real reasons, affordability, things that Trump had promised no engagements all over the world we've seen from Venezuela to now Iran, and they even forecasting, if you're listening to Lindsey Graham going into Cuba, I mean, they are almost shrinking that crowd themselves because of their doing things that are completely opposite of what they told people that were their supporters that they would do, which is why you're seeing the pickup in these state legislatures. When you see a black Democrat get the most votes and Marjorie Taylor Greene's runoff the other night, it says there's signs of the time, but you shouldn't at all Relax. Because they will try everything they can to avoid a fair election and that's why it's important to save act be defeated. Cuz they're going back to voter ID and all these other things that they know will shrink the electorate on the other side that needs to be able to vote.
- [37:36]
Chuck Todd
Shrink the electorate on both sides, shrink the Republican vote. I mean.
- [37:39]
Nicole Wallace
Well, they don't care. They feel they have that. They're concerned that these districts that can come out in big numbers be stifled with vote ID and other things and they feel that they can handle their districts. And I think that that's what we have to be aware of.
- [37:56]
Chuck Todd
Which may be the wrong calculation on that. So Mark and the Rev stick around. We just sneak in a short break. We'll be back with much more news on this front on the other side. We're back with Mark and the Rev. So Mark, people come up to me and say I love Mark Elias. But they, they do also ask me to have you explain voter roles. What are they? Who's supposed to be in charge of them and why does DOJ want them? Will you, will you talk about what's happening? There's some new reporting that you and I talk about all the time but DOJ has sued 29 states in D.C. over those states refusal to provide unredactive voter rolls. Just explain this fight to people.
- [38:35]
Mark Elias
Yeah, so this is probably the most important legal fight going on in the country right now. And if you haven't heard about it then, then here you go. So every state has a master list of every individual voter who has ever registered in the state and who has, who has ever voted in the state. So this is referred to as the voter rolls or the voter file. And essentially this is a master list of for example, your date of birth, your Social Security number, your date of your, your address, whether you've moved, whether you register as a Democrat or Republican, whether you vote in primaries or only in general elections, which specific primaries you vote in. In many states it includes racial data. So It's a total 365 degree picture of an individual. If you want to engage in voter turnout, having access to some form of voter file is essential. If you want to engage in redistricting or gerrymandering, you need the voter file. While why? Because this allows you to know who the voters are and a lot about them. Well, there's no reason for the federal government to ever have a voter file because federal government doesn't run elections. So all of a sudden out of the blue, the Department of Justice under Donald Trump asks all 50 states for unredacted copies of their voter files, which means all of that information without anything blocked out, your Social Security number, date of birth, nothing. And they want that. Well, some Republican states turn that over because they do everything Donald Trump wants. And a bunch of states, as you say, 29 states, plus the District of Columbia, have refused. And my law firm and I, we have intervened in those cases to prevent the Department of Justice from getting this information. And so far, we're three. And oh, and the Department of Justice is appealing its losses. But the reason why this is so vital is when we talk about Donald Trump trying to rig the election or trying to steal the election or try to, you know, prevent people's ballots from being counted. The voter file is the data that the Department of Justice and the administration would use to be able to know which voters they don't want to vote. Right. I mean, after all, they want to disenfranchise Democrats, they want to disenfranchise black voters, they want to disenfranchise young voters. Well, the only way they know who those people are is from the voter file. So it is critically important that we win these cases. It is critically important that everybody out there pay attention to these cases and also to check your own voter registration to make sure you are not removed.
- [41:01]
Chuck Todd
I mean, rev, there is so much public posturing about cheating and rigging and stealing the elections from localities. I mean, it's so far beyond any. Republicans used to hold that as well. It's in the Constitution. And Republicans used to care about the Constitution. Forget about Republicans or Democrats. I feel like Trump should worry about telegraphing his weakness. I mean, the whole manosphere was ostensibly predicated on strength, and nothing projects weakness like, I can only win if I cheat.
- [41:35]
Nicole Wallace
Definitely. That's the projection we're getting. And when you get down to voter rolls, and I'm glad he had broke it down, there is no other way of seeing that as a real template on how we're going to profile people based on race or age, because why do you need that otherwise? And if we're living at a time where they are openly saying, we're going to do redistricting, we're going to redraw lines, and we're going to try and move people based on we getting data through the Justice Department, we're going to use government who can't even get a
- [42:13]
Chuck Todd
subpoena at an indictment right now.
- [42:16]
Nicole Wallace
Who dribbles out Einstein, Epstein files. Who dribbles out Epstein file. But they're going to want all these states to give us all the data down to your private stuff so they can then match that with a political agenda on how they're going to, in many ways try to lopside an election. This is unthinkable. And these are the people that are going to be waving the flag for the 250th anniversary of the country as they undo everything the country says it stands for. Never lived all the way up to it, but they're not even pretending to
- [42:50]
Chuck Todd
try to do that to protect it. Mark Elias, thank you for being here today. Rob, thank you for being here. You have a big show this weekend. You have the Democrat who would be the next person to hold Marjorie Taylor Greene's seat.
- [43:02]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, he's going to be on. Sean is going to be on. We're going to have Jim Clyburn on who's announced he's running again. And we're going to deal a lot with the voting rights issues. It's going to be a big weekend.
- [43:14]
Chuck Todd
We'll be watching. We'll be watching. Thank you both. Quick break for us. We will be right back. My guest on this week's episode of the Best People is Oscar nominated Tig Notaro. Her documentary about her friend, the late poet Andrea Gibson, come See Me in the Good Light is nominated for best documentary feature at this year's Academy Awards, which is Sunday night. Take a listen to what Tig told me about making this doc. I was still kind of getting used to people outside of, you know, the scrappy poetry world in Colorado artists scene, knowing who Andrea Gibson was. And I said, yeah, I'm working on a documentary. And they were like, oh my God, we want in. And so it was, it was a lot of that. And it was so important that this project was only driven by love and passion and compassion. And I have been working in Entertainment for almost 30 years and it is nearly impossible to get through a project without having a weirdo rattling around in the production. And there was not a single weirdo in. Nobody was making it difficult. Everybody was saying yes. Everybody was just truly leading with love. We know who we're rooting for on Sunday. It is a beautiful movie. It was incredible to get to unpack the making of it with Tig. We talk about that and so much more. Don't miss the rest of our conversation. Just scan the QR code on your screen to watch the rest of it or download wherever you get your podcast. There's also a brand new episode of the Best People out tonight. For subscribers. You sign up to subscribe and you can listen to my conversation with Lieutenant General Mark Hertling right now. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for being with us all week long. I know it's been a week.
- [45:17]
Michael Feinberg
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