"Whether or not the Director of the FBI was telling Congress the truth"

Summary

Deadline: White House – "Whether or not the Director of the FBI was telling Congress the truth"

Host: Nicolle Wallace (MS NOW)
Date: May 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the recent testimony of FBI Director Kash Patel before Congress, raising critical questions about the integrity and truthfulness of his statements. Nicolle Wallace leads an incisive discussion, drawing from original reporting and analysis by Carol Leonnig (senior investigative reporter), Michael Feinberg (former FBI assistant special agent in charge), and Norm Eisen (former White House counsel). The panel explores alarming claims of data manipulation at the FBI, the alleged purging of agents, and the broader crisis of government accountability under both Director Patel and President Trump.

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Key Segments & Discussion Points

1. Inflation of FBI Crime Statistics

[01:06–10:15]

• Initial Reporting: Nicolle Wallace opens with exclusive MSNOW reporting (via Carol Leonnig & Ken Delaney) that the FBI, under Patel, may be "padding the stats and claiming arrests they would not have claimed." (01:41)
• Sources Speak Out: Internal and former FBI officials tell MSNOW that arrest numbers cited by Patel are engineered for self-promotion rather than reflecting real impact.
• Patel's Defense: At the congressional hearing, Patel stated, "We've arrested eight of the top 10 most wanted fugitives in the world in 14 months. That's twice as many in the four years combined." (02:38)
• Investigative Findings (Carol Leonnig, 03:49–07:32):
  • New Counting Methods:
    • FBI now counts arrests made by immigration and local police as their own if even one FBI agent is present.
    • Patel’s team directed FBI agents to join mass immigration sweeps initiated by White House Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller.
  • Manipulation of 'Most Wanted' List:
    • Names of fugitives are rapidly added to the FBI’s Most Wanted list shortly before capture to inflate impact.
    • Example: Four of the eight fugitives Patel boasted about were added within a month of their arrest; one captured just 1 hour 13 minutes after being listed.

Notable quote (Carol Leonnig, 03:49):

"The two big findings were these. One, that the FBI has begun counting arrests, particularly immigration agents' arrests whenever FBI agents are present... The second... four of the eight people that Kaj Patel says were arrested from that fugitive list... were added within a month of actually being captured—and one of them was arrested in an hour and 13 minutes after being put on the list."

2. Inside Reaction: Impact on Bureau Integrity

[07:45–12:10]

• Feinberg's Take: Michael Feinberg rails against Patel’s leadership and data manipulation.
  • "I don't know a single person still at the FBI or who has recently left it that has the slightest iota of respect for Cash Patel. He is widely viewed as a clown within the organization, but he's a clown with a flamethrower..." (08:06)
• On Congressional Oversight: Most violent crime statistics cited are for offenses outside FBI jurisdiction (state-level crimes).
  • "When he talks about the murder rate dropping... what he's actually doing is stealing credit and honor from state and local law enforcement agencies..." (09:13)
• FBI Culture: Genuine agents focus on the mission, not statistics: "The last thing that a real FBI agent cares about is statistics. ...The only people who care about those sorts of things are people like Cash Patel, who have no familiarity with the work..." (11:02)

3. Testimony: Truthfulness and Polygraph Scandal

[12:10–17:03]

• Patel Under Oath: Senator Van Hollen challenges Patel on whether it's a crime to lie to Congress; Patel sidesteps (12:24–13:08).
• Polygraph Controversy:
  • Leonnig’s Reporting (13:08–14:41): Patel ordered polygraphs for over two dozen staff to root out "leakers"—a panic move to save his job, according to sources.
  • Patel’s Denial: "I don't order any polygraph tests. There's an internal inspection review process..." (14:09)
• Leonnig on Misleading Statements:
  • "I saw the director say things that were false. ...I saw him say things that did not mesh with what I know to be true." (14:41)
• Moral Impact: FBI agents resent being shifted from genuine federal duty to immigration raids for political optics.

4. Purging of Agents and Morale Crisis

[17:03–29:59]

• Political Firings:
  • Allegations that agents working on Trump document investigations were dismissed for "weaponizing law enforcement"—widely disputed by former and current agents (17:33–18:59).
  • Feinberg: Such firings "stretch credulity beyond its breaking point."
• Toxic Culture & Attrition:
  • 2,800 agents have left the FBI in 15 months, compared to an average of 700—an "unprecedented hollowing out." (24:21–25:30)
  • "Morale has never been lower, and these numbers establish it." – Carol Leonnig (24:21)
• Feinberg’s Summation:
  • The workforce remains mission-driven, but trust in leadership is shattered.
  • "Saving everyone is literally what we all signed up to do... The fact that Patel would look the former commander... in the eye and say, 'you can't save everyone,' reveals nothing so much as the utter hollowness of his soul." (25:55)
  • "At no public appearance has Kash Patel ever exhibited... sober judgment, emotional maturity, or presence. ...The American people deserve better." (27:46–29:59)

5. Trump Corruption, China Trip, and IRS Settlement

[31:31–47:10]

• Trump in China: Nicolle Wallace and Norm Eisen discuss Trump's latest trip, accompanied by his son Eric and business associates, highlighting significant conflicts of interest—especially regarding Chinese crypto payments and taxpayer-funded settlements. (31:31–34:14)
• Broader Corruption:
  • "Trump is the most corrupt president in history. ...It's more on a scale as Norm said in China or Putin's Russia." – Jon Lovett (37:54)
  • Increasing economic hardship for Americans is juxtaposed with Trump family gains.
• Congressional Accountability:
  • Guests argue the real enablers are Republicans in Congress for refusing oversight.
  • "A Republican majority in Congress has abdicated their responsibility. ...They are 100% to blame for how he is able to get away with this..." – Jon Lovett (39:41)
• Pardons as Grift:
  • Trump's proposal of 250 pardons for America's 250th birthday lampooned as a further mockery of presidential power.
  • "It is absolutely effing galling to make a mockery of one of the most supreme and absolute presidential powers and to so pervert it." – Nicolle Wallace (41:32)

6. Closing Reflections & Calls to Action

[47:10–48:19+]

• Lovett and Eisen close with the imperative for political engagement: upcoming midterms as an opportunity to restore accountability, despite gerrymandering and Trump-era abuses.
• "We do have power and we do have levers, and we have to put our energy towards those places where we can really win." – Norm Eisen (46:34)

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Selected Notable Quotes

• Carol Leonnig [03:49]:

  "Four of the eight people that Kaj Patel says were arrested from that fugitive list... were added within a month of actually being captured—and one of them was arrested in an hour and 13 minutes after being put on the list."

• Michael Feinberg [08:06]:

  "He is widely viewed as a clown within the organization, but he's a clown with a flamethrower. And a clown with a flamethrower can still do a lot of damage."

• Nicole Wallace [29:59]:

  "The things that we can see with our own eyes prove the opposite point. Guzzling beer, spraying it all over, having a bottle of bourbon made with his name on it with the S replaced by a dollar sign. A really, a really, a really powerful point."

• Jon Lovett [37:54]:

  "Trump is the most corrupt president in history. He's the most corrupt person in any democracy in history."

• Nicole Wallace [41:32]:

  "It is absolutely effing galling to make a mockery of one of the most supreme and absolute presidential powers and to so pervert it."

• Norm Eisen [46:34]:

  "We do have power and we do have levers, and we have to put our energy towards those places where we can really win."

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Key Takeaways

• FBI Leadership Crisis: Mounting evidence suggests Director Kash Patel manipulated FBI statistics for political gain, undermining the Bureau’s integrity and morale.
• Congressional Accountability Deficit: Congressional oversight has been weak, allowing misrepresentation and corruption to flourish both at the FBI and in the presidency.
• Agent Attrition: Unprecedented numbers of agents are leaving the FBI, signaling a severe institutional crisis.
• Grifting at the Top: Trump family corruption now dwarfs earlier scandals (e.g., Trump Hotel) and is openly intertwined with official U.S. business and taxpayer resources.
• Potential for Change: Panelists stress that despite the bleak landscape, upcoming elections and vigilant journalism offer paths to accountability.

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Important Timestamps

• 01:06 – Nicolle Wallace sets scene on Kash Patel’s disputed testimony and FBI stat manipulation
• 03:49 – Carol Leonnig details how the FBI lied to inflate arrest numbers
• 08:06 – Michael Feinberg on Patel’s reputation within the Bureau
• 13:08 – Discussion of the polygraph scandal
• 24:21 – Carol Leonnig: 2,800 FBI agents left in 15 months under Patel
• 31:31 – Trump’s China trip, conflicts of interest, and IRS settlement reporting
• 41:32 – Pardons as a political and ethical scandal
• 46:34 – Calls to action ahead of the midterms

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Episode Tone:
Incisive, urgent, occasionally acerbic and deeply critical—with a focus on institutional integrity, the need for oversight, and a call for civic engagement.

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Summary by Deadline: White House Podcast Summarizer

Transcript

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[Nicole Wallace]

Hi there everyone. It's 4 o' clock in New York. It hasn't even been 24 hours. But Cash Patel's testimony on Capitol Hill yesterday is already raising major alarm bells over whether or not the director of the FBI was telling the truth to Congress. Not just about the news accounts of his excessive drinking on the job, the administration of polygraph tests at the FBI, or of firing agents for political reasons, but also about the very statistics that he relied upon to defend his job. Amid all those embarrassing headlines, According to brand new exclusive reporting from our colleagues Carol Leonig and Ken Delaney, when it comes to the arrests Kash Patel boasted about yesterday, quote, Patel's FBI has imposed new policies that inflate these numbers and overstate the FBI's progress in stemming crime. That is according to a half dozen law enforcement sources with knowledge of the changes. Kash Patel's lack of transparency is even causing some from inside the FBI to speak out, with one current official telling Ms. Now this quote, they are absolutely padding the stats and claiming arrests they would not have claimed. And one former official adds this quote, agents inside the bureau complained frequently about Patel's bogus arrest numbers. Cash is definitely engineering things to pad his stats, the former official said. Here is what Kash Patel said yesterday before Congress.

[Kash Patel]

We've arrested eight of the top 10 most wanted fugitives in the world in 14 months. That's twice as many in the four years combined. That is what the men and women of the FBI are doing. Well resourced. Everyone should take a look at this. If people want to continue the baseless, fraudulent, false personal attacks at me, that's great. Keep the target on me, as I've always said. But the mission has never been better

[Nicole Wallace]

According to an MSNOW review under Kash Patel's leadership, quote, the FBI has manipulated that iconic bureau program in a way that falsely suggests rapid progress in that time. The Bureau has quickly added the names of some fugitives to just hours or days before agents capture them. When reached for comment, the FBI disputed that arrests were being counted improperly without providing any specifics. Kash Patel being willing to inflate statistics about his agency's work to try to save his job is where we begin today with senior investigative reporter Carol Lennick, whose byline is on that reporting. Also joining us, former assistant Special Agent in charge at the FBI, national security and intelligence analyst Michael Feinberg. Carol Lennig. Take us through what you're reporting.

[Carol Leonnig]

Yeah, thanks, Nicole, for focusing on it. You know, my colleague Kendallaney and I have been working on this for a little while, and then, you know, we'd been hearing tips for some time that the statistics that Kaj Patel sometimes mentioned, they said were juiced or inflated unfairly and intentionally. And while we were working on this, Kaj Patel is brought before the Senate to answer questions. And instead of answering those blistering questions, he waves a black placard in the air and says, these are the. This is the proof that I'm really running this agency quite well. And this is the FBI under my leadership and started to cite these same statistics that we have been hearing were bogus. We began sort of concretizing our work, re corroborating, going back to sources. And the two big findings were these. One, that the FBI has begun counting arrests, particularly immigration agents, arrests whenever FBI agents are present or simply, you know, assisting FBI agents. As you know, Nicole, were ordered in the summer and the fall of this past year to begin going out in huge waves of teams joining immigration agents and local police to try to arrest, detain, and eventually deport immigrants from this country at the behest of Stephen Miller, the White House Deputy Chief of Staff. So now all of those arrests are being counted as FBI arrests, which helps Mr. Patel, Director Patel, claim that there is a huge spike in arrests, at least in the way that he's counting them. The second big takeaway here, Nicole, is about, you know, something that everyone in America probably recognizes about the FBI, the Most wanted list. This is supposed to be the 10 people that are the most dangerous villains in the world and that have been. We've been hunting for them for possibly years. What my colleague Ken Delaney and I found in reviewing those, based on good information from sources, was that four of the eight people that Kaj Patel says were arrested from that fugitive list, that most villainous group. Four were added within a month of actually being captured, and one of them was arrested in an hour and 13 minutes after being put on the list. As sources told us, these kinds of operations to seize dangerous fugitives don't happen in an hour and 13 minutes or even in 24 hours. And yet again, two of the people that he says we famously captured were added to the list in a time when FBI agents said they knew they were going to arrest those people.

[Nicole Wallace]

So I just want to make sure. Let me just try to dumb down the two categories, the two ways the numbers are being fudged and inflated. The first one is, if the FBI is assisting another law enforcement agency, federal or or state, they're adding all those numbers whether they were the lead, the top cops on the job or not. Is that right?

[Carol Leonnig]

That's right. And whether they put cuffs on anyone.

[Nicole Wallace]

And then the second is feels really manipulative. They know they're closing in on someone. They either have a wiretap approved or they know that they've got the goods or they have planned to make the arrest. So they add that name to the most wanted and then just, oh, coincidentally capture them within hours, days, or weeks.

[Carol Leonnig]

That's right. Again, four of the eight were people who were arrested within a month. Two of the eight were arrested within 24 hours of being added to the list.

[Nicole Wallace]

So, Michael Feinberg, it's clear that Kash Patel thinks that we're dumb. I don't even know that Kash Patel would dispute that. But he also thinks that the bureau is as dumb and as shallow as he is. And I wonder how this collides with the integrity of the men and women who are still there.

[Michael Feinberg]

You know, I think I've said before on your program, I don't know a single person still at the FBI or who has recently left it that has the slightest iota of respect for Cash Patel. He is widely viewed as a clown within the organization, but he's a clown with a flamethrower. And a clown with a flamethrower can still do a lot of damage. And he has to the individual lives of agents he's fired for political reasons, to the programs he has deprioritized in favor of immigration priorities. And, you know, just to the institution itself, with the manipulation of statistics, as Carol and Ken have shown. But we can't put all the blame on Kash Patel. I'd be remiss if I did not point out that this is Also a failure of oversight at every hearing where he has struggled to defend himself and distract from the various allegations against his integrity and character and situational judgment. He has screamed or paraded the statistics about crimes like murder or rape or robbery or other violent crimes. Most members of Congress, most members of the Senate, most representatives have been to law school. And somebody who's been through the first week of law school should realize none of those crimes that Tash Patel mentions are actually federal crimes. They're all. They're all state offenses over which the FBI does not have primary or original jurisdiction. So this has been painfully obvious to many of us when he talks about the murder rate dropping, when he talks about violent crime being stopped, what he's actually doing is stealing credit and honor from state and local law enforcement agencies that are doing the majority of the work. And he's taking credit simply because there might have been one FBI task force member out there with him.

[Nicole Wallace]

I take your point on oversight, but. And. And I. And I take the point that the men and women who have made up the workforce of the FBI would find this sort of grifting honor offensive. But what does it say that, you know, it takes a piece of investigative journalism and that no one really pressed him on this in yesterday's questioning? Michael.

[Michael Feinberg]

I mean, look, I really think this is largely a failure of oversight. It should not be news to anybody in Congress or anybody in the media or anybody in the judiciary that Kash Patel dances around questions. And with very few exceptions, there have not been aggressive attempts to pin him down. Now, I do want to tie this back to the workforce you asked about for a second, though. And the reason the workforce may not be speaking about this largely is because the last thing that a real FBI agent cares about is statistics. You care about working your cases. You care about getting the bad guy off of the street. You care about protecting witnesses, and you care about making victims whole. Who gets credit doesn't matter. Whether it impresses the White House, doesn't matter. Whether you can wave a flag and statistics in front of Congress does not matter either. The only people who care about those sorts of things are people like Cash Patel, who have no familiarity with the work and realize that the mission and the purpose has very little to do with the statistics you report.

[Nicole Wallace]

Carol Lening, I put you on the spot yesterday when I asked you if Kash Patel was lying. Senator Van Holland used the L word as well. Let me show you how that went.

[Commercial Announcer]

You still haven't answered my final question.

[Michael Feinberg]

Do you know, Mr. Director, that it is a crime to lie to Congress. Do you know that?

[Kash Patel]

I do not lie to Congress.

[Michael Feinberg]

I didn't ask you that.

[Kash Patel]

You're insinuating that I am.

[Commercial Announcer]

I asked you whether, you know, you

[Kash Patel]

want to correct your time in this session where you got steamrolled by the facts so you can have a Twitter narrative, raise more money and spend more money on $7,000.

[Commercial Announcer]

Just let the record.

[Kash Patel]

I'm not going to give it to you.

[Michael Feinberg]

The director of the FBI apparently does not want to answer the question about whether or not it's a crime to lie to Congress. And I find that extremely troubling.

[Kash Patel]

I find it troubling. You lie American every day.

[Michael Feinberg]

You are a disgrace, Mr. Director.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, first of all, 2016's calling and wants its Twitter relevance back. I can't imagine that a senator would be doing anything for Twitter on the Democratic side. But to the point of his response on just polygraphs, the administering polygraphs, which you reported this, quote, FBI Director Kash Patel ordered the polygraphing of more than two dozen former current members of his security detail, as well as other staff, and has been described as being in panic mode to save his job and find leakers among his team, according to two people briefed on the development. Let me play his answer when asked about that.

[Michael Feinberg]

Have you ordered polygraph tests of members of your team to determine how that story came about?

[Kash Patel]

The FBI conducts polygraph tests all the time. No.

[Michael Feinberg]

Have you. Have you ordered polygraph tests for members of your team to determine who is the source of the stories that I'm asking you about?

[Kash Patel]

I don't order any polygraph tests. There's an internal inspection review process for any and all leaks, especially of baseless information at the FBI that's been in place for the last 30 years. Those processes are followed by career intelligence and agents on the ground.

[Nicole Wallace]

Not a complicated path of deception there to see. Quote, I don't order any polygraph tests. But inherently misrepresenting the reality of what you and others have reported, Carol.

[Carol Leonnig]

Yeah, And I understand, Nicole, you ask questions a little bit the way I do of various people I want information from. And I respect that. Don't feel badly about asking a direct question. I don't want to. To suggest to your viewers or anyone else that I know what's in Kaj Patel's heart. But what I have said here and in other settings is that I saw the director say things that were false. Whether he intended to give false statements, I don't know. I saw him say things that did not mesh with what I know to be true. So it's problematic. And it's not the first time I've seen a high level administration official asked about some of my reporting. It is the first time I've seen a high level administration official sort of duck, actually directly answering it. Duck it so much as to mislead it felt very misleading. We know those polygraphs happened. We know of now more polygraphs that have happened that we'll report in more detail at a later time. I want to go back for a second to the statistics, if I may, and say, pick up on something Mike Feinberg said as well. The FBI is not in the business of being cops. And I think the reason so many sources came to us over the last several weeks and days about these what they consider bogus and manipulated stats and which we were able to corroborate is happening. I think the reason they came to us was because they know they're not chasing down cops in the. I'm sorry, chasing down state crimes. They're not chasing down rapists and murderers except as part of a federal conspiracy. As part of a federal crime. And they find it incredibly offensive that while they were pulled off of important duties that they have to go out into Minneapolis, St. Paul, Memphis, Louisiana, Chicago, to ride along with immigration agents and find brown people and arrest them. They find that so offensive that that is now being used as a feather in the director's cap to say, wow, the FBI is just arresting so many more people than we did under President Biden. That just galls them.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want to show you, Michael Feinberg, how Patel responded when confronted with the purging of agents, something that Brian Driscoll is actually out talking about a good deal in some of his first interviews. But this is Senator Van Hollen pressing Patel about purging agents with national security expertise, including encountering Iran.

[Michael Feinberg]

The article says that these individuals were fired for their role in the classified documents investigations of Donald Trump. First of all, is that true?

[Kash Patel]

The article, just like all the other articles you cited, is false. I terminated anyone and everyone that weaponized law enforcement.

[Michael Feinberg]

I see. So it was related, obviously, to the classified documents case.

[Kash Patel]

So that's not what I said.

[Nicole Wallace]

I guess my question is, if all the articles are false, which is his testimony under oath, why are there polygraphs and leak investigations?

[Michael Feinberg]

So before I answer your question, I want to point something out because there is more to that exchange than we just saw. I'm friends with the overwhelming majority of the agents that were being discussed in that exchange. I came of age with many of them in the Bureau. We served in multiple offices and headquarters together. They were some of the, and I do not use this term lightly, the best and the brightest with whom I ever worked. And to say that they were not fired because of their work on the Mar? A Lago investigation stretches credulity beyond its breaking point. Perhaps it is a coincidence that all of them came from the squad to which that case was assigned.

[Norm Eisen]

Maybe.

[Michael Feinberg]

But I would certainly call it a statistical anomaly, and I think it needs to be fleshed out considerably more next time there is a change in congressional oversight. As for why he's doing polygraphs and why he is so concerned about leaks of non classified information that is almost entirely made up of rumors about him. Um, it's the same reason a schoolyard bully flexes his or her muscles on a third grade playground. They're vain, insecure, and know that once you strip away their pomposity, they have nothing to actually show for themselves. This is no different than the children's fable the Emperor, the Emperor's New Clothes.

[Nicole Wallace]

Mm.

[Michael Feinberg]

Scratch the surface of Kash Patel and there is nothing but more surface. There isn't depth there. There isn't strategy. There isn't investigative acumen. There is service to the president and only the president at the expense of the American people. But he knows the more embarrassed he gets by these accusations, by these allegations and by these rumors, particularly as many of them turn out to be true, he loses favor with that president. So he lashes out like a panicked animal and orders polygraphs.

[Nicole Wallace]

Yeah. It is stunning to consume the reporting about that. And it is equally stunning to watch his disdain for the other branch of government when they ask about it. All of it is a marvel. No one's going anywhere. There is more reporting on this front. Also ahead for us today, from his trip to China to a shakedown of the irs, we'll look at Donald Trump's race to squeeze every last penny from the American taxpayers who elected him and put those pennies, dollars and more into his own coffers and those of his family. And later in the broadcast, a shattered Iranian military is what they talk about. So Donald Trump and Pete Hegseth have described what is left of IRAN since the US went to war there now more than 70 days ago. But unsurprising to many, there's brand new reporting in the New York Times that shows that that isn't true either. We'll get to those new stories and much more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Michael Feinberg]

Patel essentially said That I should know from sitting in that chair that you can't save everybody. I disagreed. I said that this is wrong. You could potentially be deposed for this in the future, and that it's. This is worth standing up for. And he essentially reflected that his job depended on him making this happen and that anybody involved in these investigations that they identify are probably going to get fired as well.

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[Norm Eisen]

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[Carol Leonnig]

And now we're friends and colleagues. And on our podcast, Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

[Commercial Announcer]

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it, too.

[Michael Feinberg]

Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes available now.

[Nicole Wallace]

I don't know that I've ever heard it disclosed that they so fundamentally do not understand the nameless stars on the wall at the CIA, the code among one another inside the FBI ethos of the military. And again, that's more opaque than just about anything. So I don't know how Pete Hegseh sees that, but the idea that Kash Patel sat across from Brian Driscoll and said, you can't save everybody. That is precisely what the men and women of the FBI who put their lives on the line do. I mean, that's precisely why it's such a dangerous vocation. I mean, this explains the figures, I think. Carol, I think you reported 2,800 agents have left the bureau in 15 months. It's an unprecedented hollowing out. We talk about hollowing out. We don't really think about what that means or how many people 2,800 agents have left the FBI. And that is why Kash Patel fundamentally doesn't understand the Bureau and the men and women in it.

[Carol Leonnig]

Yeah, heavy sigh there. Because, you know, for many years, reporters in Washington have kept tabs on, on sort of attrition rates in federal agencies to determine, you know, where's A good workforce. Where's a good workplace? Where's it a good place to work? What agencies are not working well, and the FBI for a long time had a pretty modest amount of people that would leave in the course of a year. 700 was the average in the last several years. Now 2,800 according to internal statistics that were shared with us at msnow. For the purpose of, of this story and to your running thread, Nicole, about, you know, did Director Patel lie to Congress? He said morale, in answer to a question said morale has never been better. That just caught a lot of people sort of grabbing for their throats and gasping in the press corps and, and watching at home on TV and agents actually in their offices because morale has never been lower. And these numbers establish it.

[Nicole Wallace]

Michael Feinberg it is clear that Kash Patel was not in good faith responding truthfully to the questions put to him in testimony yesterday. But I actually find it more gobsmacking to hear Brian Driscoll's account of what Kash Patel said about the purge. Quote, you can't save everyone.

[Michael Feinberg]

Saving everyone is literally what we all signed up to do. We forsook higher paying careers in the private sector, personal opportunities. We gave up the ability to choose in which city we and our families would live. We put our lives at risk weekly to arrest and apprehend dangerous fugitives, to disrupt terrorist plots, and to save our country's secrets from foreign adversaries. The fact that Patel would look the former commander of the hostage rescue team in the eye and say, you can't save everyone, reveals nothing so much as the utter hollowness of his soul. I apologize for putting it so starkly, but Kash Patel does not understand how an FBI agent views the world. He has made no attempt to learn what that looks like. And because of that, and because of his constant dissembling, there is not a single gun carrying agent in the workforce who trusts him or takes him at his word.

[Nicole Wallace]

I want you to say more about what that means on a day to day basis for the men and women who, I don't know. There's not a lot of operational evidence of his stewardship of the Bureau, but at least in title and on an org chart, he still sits atop it. What does that collision of values and perspective and training and expertise and honor look like day to day?

[Michael Feinberg]

Michael Feinberg so it matters to the workforce in terms of morale, but not to the point where they're going to stop doing their jobs. We never did our jobs or risked our own lives to please the Director or to please a president. We did it because people needed protecting and it was the right thing to do. And in articulating that just now, a thought sort of came to my mind that I think is apropos here in light of yesterday's hearing. Somewhere in the country, a man or a woman was watching C Span or Ms. Now or CNN or some network that was covering those hearings. And some of those viewers might have lost a child to murder. Some of them may have been violently attacked themselves. Maybe one of them knew somebody who was in the Twin towers when they came down. And they have the right, the expectation to look at the FBI director and know that the organization that is now charged with protecting them and making them whole from those crimes is in good hands and that the director is a person of sober judgment, emotional maturity and presence. And at no public appearance has Kash Patel ever exhibited any of those qualities. And at the risk of sounding cloyingly idealistic, the American people deserve better. We pay our taxes. We follow the law. We do our civic duty. We help our neighbors. We volunteer when people are in trouble. The average citizen deserves to know that the FBI director takes his civic responsibility as seriously as they do. And he has never done a single thing since assuming that office to provide them that reassurance.

[Nicole Wallace]

Quite to the contrary. I mean, the things that we can see with our own eyes prove the opposite point. Guzzling beer, spraying it all over, having a bottle of bourbon made with his name on it with the S replaced by a dollar sign. A really, a really, a really powerful point. Michael Feinberg, thank you for that. Caroline, thank you for your reporting. Thank you both for starting us off again today. Coming up next for us, Donald Trump's trip to China could end up being a big sellout for America in order to enrich Donald Trump and his kids and their business interests. And that's just the trip to China. We'll bring you that story next.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, my fears are that he's going to sell out American interests for his own personal interests. Remember, he has at least one son I saw on this trip who has been clouding all of our foreign policy by doing deals with the very nations that are negotiating with us for high technology chips and for other business. Remember, this is the family that has made tens of millions of dollars in partnerships with uae, Saudi Arabia and other countries that undermine, I believe, the objectivity of our foreign policy decisions. So when Trump goes over there with more business leaders and business partners of his family than with actually China experts, everybody in America should be concerned.

[Nicole Wallace]

It's actually more like billions with a B. For Donald Trump grift appears to always have been a family affair. And the latest trip, even what's happening in public is no different. As Donald Trump touched down in China, he was trailed by his son Eric, not to mention some of his own top political donors. The Trump administration claimed that there was nothing improper about Eric Trump's appearance on the trip, saying that he doesn't have business dealings in China or plans to do business in China, conveniently forgetting that Eric's close ties to a Chinese cryptocurrency firm which has given a company partially owned by Eric Trump preferential access to technology and beneficial payments terms on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of equipment. It's not just these specific foreign business dealings. Donald Trump is in the midst of negotiating up to 10 billion again with the B dollar taxpayer funded payday for himself and his two adult sons. Negotiations are taking place right now with his own administration on that. The New York Times reports this, quote, the Justice Department is holding internal discussions about settling Donald Trump's lawsuit against the IRS in the coming days. That's according to three people familiar with those deliberations. It's a move that could involve the government directly providing taxpayer funds or another public benefit to the president. A settlement payment even a fraction of the size of Trump's requested $10 billion could be much larger than his other attempts at private gain, potentially doubling his net worth. I want to bring into our coverage Norm Eisen. He served as special counsel for ethics and government reform in the White House under President Obama. He's now a senior fellow at Brookings and the executive chair of Democracy Defenders Fund. He was here Monday when we decided we would do this weekly. And it didn't take three days to need you to come back and have this conversation with us again. Also joining us, another Obama White House veteran, Pod Save America co host Jon Lovett is here with us. He's a former speechwriter for both President OB and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. He is a co founder of Crooked Media. We're so happy to see both of you. Norm, I asked you advice on and off television, right, about how to do a better job focusing in on the specific acts of corruption and then the broader vibe of corruption. And I guess I would differentiate the vibe of getting off a plane with your family and sort of America's oligarchs is the vibe part of the question and then the specific reporting about the actual conflicts inherent in all of this. And I wonder you can take them in any order you want, but we knew we needed your thoughts on both those today.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, thanks for having me back so soon, Nicole. I'm not sure if it's a very good sign for the country that we have yet another corruption scandal, but glad to be back with you. Look, when I was doing this work in the White House, artificial intelligence is moving very, very fast and it's raising new questions just about every day about what it is, what it isn't. When all is said and done, what is the end game? I'm Chris Hayes and as part of my podcast, why is this Happening? I'm speaking with leading experts each week to help ground that conversation.

[Nicole Wallace]

We're right now in a situation where

[Carol Leonnig]

it's very difficult to understand what is

[Commercial Announcer]

real and what's not real. Why is this Happening? The AI Endgame, a special miniseries from Ms. Now. Start listening today wherever you get your podcasts. We never would have allowed the appearance issue of having outside businesses in which Donald Trump has himself financial interests being run by his son Eric, and then promoting Eric by giving him this preferential treatment on the trip. Crypto has been one of the areas where the largest sums, and we don't even know what the totals are, have flowed in. We know that there is an Eric Trump Chinese crypto connection, according to reporting by the Guardian. And this is not an American image. This is something that the Chinese regime with its princelings, where you have those who are in government and everyone understands the way to financially benefit them is through their family members. It's a familiar sight in China. That's not the idea of integrity that we promote in America. And the crypto related scandals have been some of the worst of the corruption issues in this administration. So it is outrageous that Eric Trump running the Trump family business, benefiting his father's pocketbook. His father who broke with the traditions of segregating these kinds of sums by having a blind trust. No, he wouldn't do that. So it's, it's another disgrace in Donald Trump's record.

[Nicole Wallace]

John. Love it. Let me read you one more headline and then I'll turn this over to you from the Washington Post. Quote, prices for these grocery items spiked highest since the war began. Tomato prices soared 15% in April compared to a month ago. They're up 40% in the last year. Prices for Americans beloved beef surged in April are up 15% over last year. Grocery prices are up more than 18% since January 2022. And the shocks from the war are just now starting to be felt. I guess I asked you to sort of knit that in, because corruption is a hallmark of Donald Trump's entire time in politics. I remember all of David Farrenfal's great reporting about the Trump Hotel where all the foreign leaders had to stay and do business. So I think to some people, it feels like the oldest Trump story we've been covering, but it is newly enraging to voters, including some of his own. Do you view that as a cumulative effect, or do you view that as a consequence of the economic hardship?

[Norm Eisen]

So it's extraordinary, right? Like, oh, making a little money off hotel rooms. That's pocket change compared to where we are now. And I think the bigger question is, how do we get to the point where the President thinks he can get away with suing his own Justice Department, currently run by his former personal attorney, as the two sides sides attempt to reach a settlement in which he may personally receive billions of dollars in taxpay money when the same case, as it affected others, was settled for no money. How do you get a point where that's even to the point where that's even on the table? And it's because at each step along the way in Donald Trump's two presidencies, he has been a raptor, testing defenses, seeing what he can get away with. And I would bet even he is surprised by how much he can get away with at this point. When Trump first went to China in his first term, it was a bit of a scandal that there were trademark approvals, I believe, for Ivanka's business interest. Right. And now we are talking about multibillion dollar schemes that are unprecedented in America. Yeah. Trump is the most corrupt president in history. He's the most corrupt person in any democracy in history. It's more on a scale as. As Norm said in China or Putin's Russia. And to me, it's about a lack of accountability. Right. And that, to me, is what ties back to the prices. The fact that Donald Trump feels like he can go up to the cameras and say in these negotiations over the Iran deal, I'm not thinking about the financial interests of the American people. I'm not of anybody. The fact that he can be lining his pockets while people are struggling, while he's painting the reflecting pool and building ballrooms and focusing on everything other than the main issue that got him back into the White House is because he doesn't feel accountable. And anytime he faces any form of accountability, whether it's from the Supreme Court or potentially in the election, he lashes out. He posts 75 times in 55 minutes. He tries to gerrymander his way out of any political accountability. And all of this, to me ultimately falls on the Republicans in Congress. I think we have to come back to that. It is not Donald Trump is not, is not the reason alone that we have an unprecedented quantum leap in corruption unlike anything we have ever seen in the history of the Republic. It is because a Republican majority in Congress has abdicated their responsibility. There has never been a midterm in my life where the accountability was so necessary and clear, where the Republicans in Congress must be held responsible for what the president is doing. They are 100% to blame for how he is able to get away with this because he should be investigated. He should be impeached and removed for dozens of offenses, quotidian violations of law, high crimes against the Constitution. Why it's, why even saying that sounds unrealistic is because of the Republicans in Congress and what they have forgiven or enjoyed.

[Nicole Wallace]

It is such a, and I didn't

[Norm Eisen]

go to law school like Norm did, so I put more meat on. But, you know, but I mean, I don't think you need to be a lawyer at this point.

[Nicole Wallace]

But as, as a poli sci experiment, if you wanted to test what happens in a democracy if one of the three branches of government goes away. Right. If you take out Congress, that's what we're all living through. I have a million more questions for both of you. I have to sneak in a break before I ask them. Don't go anywhere. We'll all be right back. Norm Eisen, it's a fielder's choice. Gold phones or 250 pardons for America's 250th. Your choice.

[Commercial Announcer]

I think we'll see another 250 corruption scandals for America's 250th.

[Nicole Wallace]

Well, so here's the story on the pardons. Wall Street Journal today reports that, quote, White House officials are weighing a plan for Trump to issue 250 pardons as a way to mark the celebration of the nation's 250th birthday this summer. That's according to people familiar with the matter. The plan is still in preliminary discussions, but if carried out, would expand Trump's already wide use of the pardon power. I've been covering Trump every day for a decade and I have a, I'm not numb in any regard, but I, I really feel like I've seen a lot of these stories already and it's our job to keep them specific and rooted in superb reporting. This is super specific. It's in the Wall Street Journal, the Murdoch owned Journal. And it is absolutely, I can't use the words because they're, they're too much for this family friendly time slot. It is absolutely effing galling to make a mockery of one of the most supreme and absolute presidential powers and to so pervert it. It's a power meant to restore rights and give a second chance. And it is so disgusting, Taken in concert with the New Yorker, reporting from the last, I think, seven days, about the body of evidence that suggests pardons are actually for sale, Your thoughts on this disgusting way to mark America's birthday.

[Commercial Announcer]

Well, we began the Trump administration in disgrace with the pardoning of the January 6th insurrectionists, including large numbers who had attacked law enforcement. It's perhaps what you would expect from a president who himself is a convicted felon in connection with campaign finance irregularities in the 2016 election. And we've seen these scandalous pardons of individuals who are connected to the crypto industry and to specific Trump related entities in that industry. There's no place for that. We've seen the pardon of foreign leaders who were convicted of pumping drugs into our country, damaging the lives of countless Americans. Pardons that satisfy the president's whim, whims treating Mar a Lago as a pardon bazaar where people who have membership in the club approach the president and talk him into using this sacred power. So it is a disgrace. It is part of the idea of America for sale. And I will say all of this comes at a cost to the American people. Can you imagine if we took the $10 billion that is being talked about for the tax settlement and the $1 billion for the golden Ballroom in a time of tremendous austerity, and we use that to extend health care, to provide daycare for our kids or support for our seniors. So these corruption scandals do come at a high cost.

[Nicole Wallace]

I mean, John, to your point, they haven't yet come to a high political cost. Right. So Trump runs three times, wins twice, Republicans control Congress, both chambers. What, what is your sense of, of whether or not that political cost is coming due?

[Norm Eisen]

I, you know, you both are a little bit glum about the pardons. I'd rather have 250 pardons than 250 public executions. You know that that's like on his list of ideas. So it could be worse. Things could be worse.

[Nicole Wallace]

And if you stay, if you pull an all nighter, you might even see him post about it tonight.

[Kash Patel]

Right?

[Norm Eisen]

Like, I'm sure I listen, I don't think I can see it having come up In a brainstorm, midterms. We're about to have the midterms. That's where we get a chance to put some Democratic accountability on these people. That's why they are trying to redraw the maps in a slap dash, hasty way to get out of potentially losing the House. But even with the maps that they're drawing, Democrats should, if we are able to make the argument we need to make, win this election when gas is $6 and we've launched a war without any conception for how to end it, as the President walks around with a hard hat talking about, you know, bookended marble like, yeah, we should be able to win this, to win this election on those terms, clearly, you know, look, for all their bluster, there are a lot of reports about how the White House is gaming out, what investigations will look like, what it looks like to actually have a Congress that's trying to get some answers and hold them accountable. That's what we have to focus on. That is where we have power.

[Michael Feinberg]

It's calling.

[Norm Eisen]

It's all so outrageous and embarrassing and un American. And the fact that there were so many people willing to go along with it is a great and everlasting national shame and embarrassment. But we still do have power and we do have levers and, and we have to put our energy towards those places where we can really win. And hopefully, by the way, the fact that they're gerrymandering these maps, making the House a little bit more of a challenge to win, can get more people to turn out in all those close races, including close races in places where we have a chance to pick up a Senate seat. So, so I, I'm looking at those as the places where, you know what, like, we have real agency right now and we can use it, right?

[Nicole Wallace]

Like, like Orban is gone. Because people took all those odds that stacked against them over 15 years, 15 and a half years, and delivered a turnout that would make it impossible for anything else to happen. The gold phone thing was real and we didn't get to it. So I don't know if you guys are busy this time tomorrow, but if you can come back, we'll deal with the extraordinary story of the gold phones. Like, that wasn't a line. There's real reporting about that and, like, five pages of epic scandals. We need you, Normize and John Lovett, thank you so much for joining me today. You can see more of John Lovett on our special week, Crooked on Ms. Now highlights the smartest and the funniest and the bluntest moments of the week. And there are many on Crooked Media's podcasts, including John's Love it or Leave it comedy show. It airs right here every Saturday night at nine after a break. Brand new reporting that absolutely blows out of the water. The things that Donald Trump and his cabinet have been saying for weeks now about the war in Iran. The next hour, deadline White House starts after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

[Michael Feinberg]

Sunday, June 14, from Washington, D.C. a special live taping of MSNOW's hit podcast the Blueprint with Jen Psaki. Join her as she talks with actor and author Billy Eichner. They'll explore the power of humor in the face of adversity. And Eichner's new audio memoir, billy on Billy the Blueprint with Jen Psaki live with Billy Eichner. Get your tickets today at 6th and I dot org.