← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Who’s in charge?”
00:41:32
Nicolle Wallace on the lack of honesty from the Trump administration on who is currently in charge of Venezuela. This pertinent question comes after the U.S. captured Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro and his wife.
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Host Nicole
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Host Nicole
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
Hey, everyone, it's Chris Hayes. This week on podcast why Is this Happening? Gia Tolentino, staff writer at the New.
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Host David
Yorker, on what this news cycle combined.
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Reporter David Noriega
With social media together are doing to our brains.
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Host Nicole
The things that are fake look extremely real. The things that are real are almost unbelievable. And then the result is this slurry.
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Host David
In our mind that causes this permission.
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Host Nicole
Structure to detach from the material reality of the world.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
That's this week on why Is this Happening? Search for why is this Happening?
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Reporter David Noriega
Wherever you're listening right now and follow.
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Political Analyst Claire McCaskill
Mr. Secretary, who is in charge?
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Reporter David Noriega
Are you running Venezuela right now? Yeah. I mean, I keep people, you know, fixating on that. Here's the bottom line on it is we expect to see changes in Venezuela.
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Host David
Fixating, I guess us, not you. We're fixated. All right. Hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in New York. Truly bizarre answer from the United States of America's secretary of state the day after a military operation captured another country's leader and wife. That it's us.
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Host Nicole
Right.
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Host David
That Americans are, in the words of Marco Rubio, fixating on the cbb. Little matter of who exactly is in charge of Venezuela since we removed its leader. Who's flying the plane? We want to know. The fact is getting an honest answer to that question isn't a fixation. Over the last 48 hours, it's been absolutely painstakingly torturous and whiplash inducing. So much so that one has to wonder if Donald Trump and his Secretary of State, Marco Rubio were ever in the same room ever. Like, talked any of this out beforehand. Watch.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
We're going to run the country until such time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition. President Trump was pretty clear yesterday. He said the United States is going to run Venezuela under what legal authority?
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Host David
Well, first of all, what's going to.
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Reporter David Noriega
Happen here is that we have a quarantine under oil. That means their economy will not be able to move forward until the conditions that are in the national interest of.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
The United States and the interest of.
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Reporter David Noriega
The Venezuelan people are met.
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Host Nicole
What's the group you mentioned that would run Venezuela?
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
It's largely going to be for a period of time. The people that are standing right behind me, we're going to be running it, we're going to be bringing it back.
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Reporter David Noriega
Well, it's not running the. Concerning policy. The policy with regards to this. We want Venezuela to move in a certain direction because not only do we think it's good for the people of.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
Venezuela, it's in our national interest. Don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial.
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Host Nicole
What does that mean?
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
That means we're in charge. Why wasn't congressional authorization necessary?
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Reporter David Noriega
It wasn't necessary because this is not an invasion. We didn't occupy a country. This was an arrest operation. This is a law enforcement operation. You referenced boots on the ground earlier. Can you just sort of button this up? Do you envision the US military having.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
A presence in Venezuela as the US runs that well? No, we're going to have presence in Venezuela as it pertains to oil because we have to have. We're sending our expertise in. So you may need something.
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Reporter David Noriega
Not very much, but no, we're going to be taking out a tremendous amount.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
Of wealth out of the ground.
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Host David
So if you listen to Marco Rubio, it was either a so called arrest operation that resulted in more than 70 people being killed according to two Venezuelan government sources, or it was something else we listened to Donald Trump or it was a third thing that required congressional approval. Whatever it was, it is something that the American people, upwards of 70% of us, were expressly against. A Quinnipiac poll conducted not even one month ago showed that nearly 2/3 of all Americans oppose any US military action inside of Venezuela. American historian Heather Cox Richardson cuts to the heart of the matter when she writes this, quote, officials in the administration no longer appear to care what the American people want, instead simply gathering power into their own hands for the benefit of themselves and their cronies, trusting that Republican politicians will go along and the American people will not object enough to force the issue. The refusal of the Department of Justice to obey the clear direction of the Epstein Files Transparency act seems to have been a test of Congress's resolve. And so far it is a gamble the administration appears to be winning at gamble is where we begin the hour. Some of our favorite experts and friends. Margaret Donovan is here she served as a captain in the army, serving in the 101st Airborne Division and later in 5th Special Forces Group. She was a captain in the JAG Corps and is the former assistant U.S. attorney for the District of Connecticut. She's now a visiting lecturer at Yale Law. Also joining us, political analyst and former Senator Claire McCaskill. She served on the Armed Services and Homeland Security committees during her time in the Senate. And former ambassador to Russia international affairs analyst Michael McFaul is here. Margaret, let me start with you and just ask for your top three questions you have right now for what it is that America is doing in Venezuela.
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Host Nicole
My top question would be exactly what you just said. What are we doing? We have heard so many different versions of what we're doing. On one hand, we heard up and down on Saturday that this was a law enforcement operation. And what are you so upset about? This is just a warrant and this is drug trafficking and we're here. And the long arm at the Department of Justice is just doing what it does with these extraterritorial arrests. But keep in mind that for the past three months, we've just been summarily killing people, saying that we're at war, because that's what we've been justifying, the boat strikes, which we would normally arrest and bring the long arm of the law to account for the Department of Justice actions and drug trafficking. And in that scenario, we've said no, actually, that's war. But what we just did to Maduro, which resulted in anywhere between 40 and 80 casualties, depending on the reporting, that's just a normal law enforcement operation. So there's some significant inconsistencies here. The next question that I would have is probably what exactly what parts of the president's words are we supposed to believe? Because again, at that Saturday press conference and every day since then, we have heard his various cheerleaders say, when the president says something, he means it, and this is what happens. And you got to believe him when he says something, except for that one thing that he said about running the country, apparently, according to Marco Rubio, Secretary Rubio. So I would just wonder what is the rule for deciding when the president means what he means and what he doesn't? And lastly, I would say can we see the legal opinions for any of this, because there are various chapters of illegality that you could talk about any one of the aspects of these operations. And so I'm interested to know what the lawyers inside the White House are saying.
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Host David
Let me follow up with you on your first point. I mean, the incoherence, to me feels like the story here, not whether or not Maduro was bad. Maduro was bad, but so is Vladimir Putin. So a whole bunch of people. The incoherence, though, I think that you underscored, is really, really important to lift out. Here. We are murdering, without proof, suspected drug traffickers, and we are describing it as a, quote, law enforcement operation to use the military to land in Venezuela, remove its leader, bring him back to America to stand trial. Why? If the leader of the thing that we're using as a justification for murder and war and double tap strikes in the Caribbean, how can it be both?
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Host Nicole
It can't. And the administration is just using terms that it thinks protects them for whatever it wants to do without actually applying the facts to the law. And of course, if you've seen the indictment, no mention of fentanyl, no mention even of Venezuela gangs. It mentions a lot of Colombia gangs and Mexican cartels trende. Aragua, of course, originated in Venezuela. But there's really no connection between the facts outlined in the indictment and the justification that we've heard since September.
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Host David
Claire, you and I have been playing this game for 10 years. Where are the Republicans? We won't do that today. But let me just ask you, do you think there is a point? We have now used the military, our brilliant and brave volunteer military, the men and women of the military, to execute a special operation inside Venezuela. And Trump has telegraphed to the world that he has in his sights. Let me get his list down, he said out loud, maybe Mexico, Colombia, Cuba and Greenland. What are your thoughts about whether there is any folly that Trump will send our men and women of the military on that would cause the Senate Democrats and Republicans to say, whoa, no, I don't think so. Not without our authorization.
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Political Analyst Claire McCaskill
I don't imagine, frankly, that's going to happen before the next election. You know, let's all agree Maduro bad, military good. Now what? And I think there's enough members of the Senate. I know there's enough members of the Senate that remember what happens when you try to bend another country to your will. And we've tried to do it in Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and other places. It's really, really hard to do. It's hard to when you have thousands of soldiers and contractors on the ground. It is impossible to do if you don't have a plan and you don't really know what the goal is. And it appears since he's telling the oil companies he's invading Venezuela before he tells Congress that it is in fact about the oil. So are we really at the point that the Republicans are going to say, yeah, we're going to leave Maduro regime in place, we're going to leave all the bad guys there, which they're there right now. They're in charge. All the Maduro people are in charge. All the bad guys are running Venezuela. Don't celebrate too quickly, Venezuelans that are here in America, because you've got no assurances that government's going anywhere. Because if they hand over oil, if they allow the American companies to come in and grab the wealth of their country, then I think Trump will be fine with bad guys being in charge forever. It is just astounding to me that more Republicans have not put the euphoria of our great military aside and how unbelievably they did this very hard thing to do and are not hearing the echoes of what all of them watched in horror as we failed miserably both in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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Host David
Ambassador McFaul, I want to read you something that Fiona Hill said in 2019 during Donald Trump's impeachment. She said this, quote, the Russians at this particular juncture were signaling very strongly that they, the Russians wanted to somehow make some very strange swap arrangement between Venezuela and Ukraine. In other words, if we were going to exert some semblance of the Monroe Doctrine of, you know, Russia keeping out of our backyard, because this is after the Russians had sent in these hundred operatives essentially to basically secure the Venezuelan government and to preempt what they were obviously taking to be some kind of US Military action, they were basically signaling, you have your Monroe Doctrine, you want us out of your backyard. Well, we have our own version of this. You're in our backyard in Ukraine. Do you think that Russia planted the seed in Donald Trump's mind that he takes Venezuela for the same reasons that Putin says he wants Ukraine.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
That's a very intriguing question that I don't know the answer to, obviously, but it's very troublesome what Fiona said there. There's no doubt that this is the way President Trump thinks. He thinks that we're in the 19th century. He thinks that we're going to rule our area and they're going to rule Europe, and the Chinese are going to rule Asia. They made that very clear in their national security strategy. It's right in their doctrine. And that's what I want to emphasize. This is not in America's national interest. That is the standard we need to judge all of these actions by. Are we more secure? Are we more prosperous? Is Our reputation enhanced by all this. And the unequivocal answer is no. And I have to say, Nicole, I'm just shocked at how badly President Trump is handling this. And you know, I don't have a high standard of his foreign policy achievements, but they took out Maduro and it was an incredible operation. And by the way, we should celebrate that and our enemies should look at what we are capable of doing, put that aside. It would have been so easy for him to then say, we are going to help the democratically elected president of Venezuela and Mundo Gonzalez, reinstate, be instated and restore democracy here in Venezuela. That was so obvious. It would be such a no brainer. And by the way, if you really wanted oil in Venezuela, the way to get it in a peaceful, democratic and legal way is first to have a democratic transition and then Gonzalez Machado. I guarantee you, I know people in the opposition, they would have cooperated with us, but instead he threw Machado under the bus. He said, we're not interested in them. As you were just discussing, he's supporting the Maduro regime right now. The same narco terrorist regime regime that evidently is killing all these people in America. Every single one of them is still empowered today, but one. And then he's allegedly, we're going to run this country through them. How? Again, we just keep need to answer the question, how does this serve America's national security or prosperity or our values? And I see no answers to any of those questions yet.
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Host David
Let me just challenge you, Ambassador. I mean, I feel like Trump has answered the interests that he's going to answer and it is that we are going to have a, quote, tremendous number of people there. He was asked if he talked to the oil companies. He said, quote, yes, before and after. He has told us what we're doing there. And it's nothing to do with what you're talking about. Democracy, free or fair elections, or the corrupt, autocratic, brutal nature of the Maduro regime. At what point are we the problem? We don't hear what he's saying out loud. He's telling us that he's there for their oil.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
Well, he said that. But then a Secretary of state, as you just pointed out yesterday, contradicted all of that. Remember, I watched the press conference. He turned to his guys standing behind him, he said they're going to run the country. And now the Secretary of state said, no, we're not going to do that. So I don't know who he's talking about. He thinks that the Maduro regime is going to help US obtain this oil for our oil companies. That's crazy. That's not going to happen. And by the way, by alienating the Venezuelan democratic opposition, they're not going to help us either. So he may want that to happen, but I'm very skeptical that it will. And if he tries to do it with boots on the ground, as he warned, then this becomes another very chaotic, even a civil war could be happening inside Venezuela if he tries to do what he has alleged he wants to do just a few days ago.
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Host David
I want to ask all of you to turn with me to the politics of this, not just American political dynamics between Democrats and Republicans, but the absolute betrayal of everything that Donald Trump's three campaigns for the presidency were about America first, isolation, the promises he made to his base. At least one MAGA or former MAGA member Marjorie Taylor Greene is sounding off on that. The panel sticks around. We'll listen to that together. Also ahead for us, but Donald Trump now threatening no fewer than four other countries with a similar invasion as was carried out on Saturday night. We'll have a live report from one of those countries that's been targeted, Colombia, where Trump's threats are drawing a sharp rebuke from that country's leader. Also ahead with the focus in our country and among our media folks focused on what has happened in Venezuela. There are many controversies surrounding Donald Trump that he would like for us to ignore. So we won't. From the Epstein files to January 6th, the anniversary of that is tomorrow. Why many are questioning the timing of Trump's wag the dog or attack on Venezuela. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. This is the same Washington playbook that we are so sick and tired of that doesn't serve the American people but actually serves the big corporations, the banks and the oil executives. And so my pushback here is on the Trump administration that campaigned on Make America Great Again that we thought was putting America first. I want to see domestic policy be the priority that helps Americans afford life. We're back with Margaret Clare and Ambassador McFaul. Claire, to the degree that Make America Great Again was more than vibes and a movement and a hat and a political association that its members derived community and pleasure from. To the degree it was about any one thing, it was about what she was talking about there, focusing on our problems here, ending the quote, unquote, forever wars, not getting entangled in new forever wars. And it's been coming up in the polling for many months now that a lot of members of Trump's culture. I think Steve Bannon has been publicly criticizing Donald Trump for this now for many weeks, if not months. But that one of the deepest rifts inside maga, other than the Epstein lack of transparency and defiance of the law that was passed, is this obsession, this focus with international affairs, with using the military in foreign lands, with dangerous operations like what happened on Saturday night.
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Political Analyst Claire McCaskill
Yeah, to me, there's like three legs of the stool that are holding the MAGA base together. One was America first, which is all about no foreign wars. Forget about, you know, us trying to be a beacon to the rest of the world for the ideals that we hold dear. We're just going to take care of our own. Secondly, we want to get everybody out of the country that isn't from here, quote, unquote, which of course is a very backwards way to think of the United States of America, which is we all came here from somewhere. And then third, the economy, you know, that they were. He was going to make their lives better in terms of having a little bit of extra money at the end of the month after they pay for all the things they have to pay for and all three of those things. The only one that he has really executed on is these brutally cruel ways of trying to take people out of this country, many of whom who've lived here as contributing members of our society for decades. So I do think that the base is frayed at this point. I think there's some real divisions over Israel and other things, and certainly over Epstein. So I would not want to be in their shoes trying to win congressional elections in November right now. And I don't know how this thing in Venezuela is going to help them. And next I think they'll do Cuba, because I think that's been Marco's plan from the beginning. Venezuela was propping up Cuba, and I think when Marco Rubio took this job, he was focused like a laser on trying to bring down Cuba.
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Host David
Margaret, I think Claire is probably right, but it is still for all of the ambition that may have been there all along, it's clear they never had any internal meetings about how to talk about it. Here's what I think I counted as the sixth articulation of what this was about. This is Mike Waltz today at the United nations on election manipulation.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
Of all things years, Maduro and his cronies have manipulated Venezuela's electoral system to maintain their illegitimate grip on power. In fact, just two years ago in 2024, a UN panel of experts report found that the election in that year was absolutely and completely A farce, and fell well short of the most basic transparency, integrity measures essential to upholding credible elections.
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Host David
Now, Margaret, I should point out that Donald Trump, when he was asked on Air Force One about free and fair elections, gave sort of a disinterested response. And so people understand that the people that were left that were not taken early in the morning Saturday are of Maduro's government. So we didn't put people in charge who are not part of what the ambassador to the United nations describes as Maduro and his cronies. We left one of those cronies in charge manipulating Venezuela's electoral system to maintain an illegitimate grip on power. We left them in charge. That's who's running Venezuela right now. As we have this conversation, what do you make of the incoherence of Trump's own national security team's public articulations of what we're doing?
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Host Nicole
Yeah, I think that they are trying to come up with a palatable explanation for what has happened. And palatable is what the United States has been known for for, you know, years prior to the Trump administration, which is promoting democracy abroad. You did not hear the word democracy once in the Saturday press conference. Mike Waltz's statements this morning are completely undermined by the fact that, as you say, not only are some of the members of that dictatorship still in power, apparently with our support, some of the people who are under indictment are still in government there. So that is a total farce. And I don't know what he's reaching for. He also referenced in Those comments Article 51 of the UN Charter Self Defense, which again throws us back into this international conflict, armed conflict context. I do want to say it would have been so easy. And I couldn't agree more with something Ambassador McFaul said a few minutes ago, which is it would have been so easy to just say, you know what, Machado and the democratically elected person is in charge now. Or you could even say that you consulted with them beforehand and you got their blessing to go into the country. That would have solved so many legal problems for the administration. One, it would have given them ostensibly authority to enter into the country if they were recognizing the democratically elected leaders. And two, when Maduro raises his state sovereignty immunity defense in court, the fact that we are recognizing the democratically elected leadership would support our defense. To that, in other words, when the DOJ says he's not a head of state so he can't invoke immunity, that would be supported had we actually made this about democracy and about who should have been elected. So I think that what is happening is Mike Waltz and others are scrambling to find an acceptable explanation for what we did. But the reality is exactly what President Trump said on Saturday. It's for a few oil executives who are going to go in and make.
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Host David
Some money, who as Trump told us he briefed before and after the operation. Ambassador McFaul, what are you hearing from friends and contacts in Kiev today?
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
It's all depressing. I don't know what else to say. You know, there is a fight between autocrats and Democrats in the world. There is in Venezuela, there is in Europe. And the president of the United States is on the side of the autocrats. I wish I could say something clearer, but I can't. He had every opportunity to say something, one nice word about the Democratic opposition, one word about the democratically elected president of Venezuela from 2024 and he didn't and just be his United nations ambassador. I mean, you know, Maduro and his cronies, every single one of those cronies is in power today except Maduro. And what we have today, there's no interagency process at all. There's nobody sit in the White House situation room going through different options. There's just one guy winging it sometimes live on TV saying what's on his mind and then other people scrambling. And this doesn't serve the interests of the American people. And he's also winging it when it comes to threatening to invade other countries. And this is not like President Bush using military force or President Obama using military force in Libya. This is a guy threatening to invade Countries in a 19th century style Imperialism for oil. And the American people don't support it. And the American representatives need to get louder and expressing those views so that one guy doesn't ruin America's national security interests around the world.
- [26:23]
Host David
Ambassador Michael McFaul, Margaret Donovan, thank you so much for starting us off today. To be continued. I'm sure Claire stays with us. When we come back, what the leadership of neighboring Columbia is saying about all of this after Donald Trump said a military operation there in that country, quote, sounds good to him. We'll have a live report from Bogota after a short break.
- [26:46]
Host Nicole
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- [27:13]
Host David
That's 1-800-flowers.
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Host Nicole
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- [27:16]
Reporter David Noriega
The U.S. military deployed on the streets of America. Whole communities targeted for removal.
- [27:22]
Political Analyst Claire McCaskill
And when accountability finally came knocking, the burn order to cover it all up.
- [27:27]
Reporter David Noriega
Rachel Maddow presents Burn Order. All episodes available now.
- [27:33]
Host David
Donald Trump's decision to bypass Congress and seize the president of Venezuela and bring him to New York unleashes a new level of unease about what he will do with what he sees as his unchecked power. Those of us in the United States and all around the globe, and especially right next door in Colombia. Last night, mixed in with his threats against several countries and territories, Donald Trump appeared to confirm that the United States of America would pursue a military operation in Colombia too. Watch.
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Ambassador Michael McFaul
Colombia is very sick, too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you.
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Host David
What does that mean? He's not going to be doing it very long.
- [28:15]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
He's not doing it very long. He has cocaine mills and cocaine factories. He's not going to be doing it right.
- [28:22]
Host David
So there will be an operation by.
- [28:23]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
The U.S. it sounds good to me.
- [28:27]
Host David
Will there be an operation in Colombia? It sounds good to me. I want to bring in Ms. Now reporter David Noriega on what that means to people on the ground in Bogota. Claire is still here with us. Take us through all the reaction and response to those statements. David.
- [28:45]
Reporter David Noriega
Well, Nicole, I've been in contact since I've been here with a few people who are inside the Colombian government or close to Gustavo Petro, the president here, the democratically elected left wing president of this country. And the reaction is mixed. On the one hand, there's pretty intense outrage at the fact that Donald Trump would say this. They view his actions in Venezuela, even if they don't support the Maudo government, didn't recognize his election. They see his actions there as nakedly imperialistic, violating the sovereignty of a Latin American nation. And the idea that he would threaten to do the same thing here is shocking and outrageous to them. I also want to just get out of the way very quickly that the allegations that Trump made against Petro in that clip and has made against Petro in the past, accusing him of being directly involved in drug trafficking, are completely unfounded. There's absolutely no evidence to support that. In fact, Petro made his name politically by exposing and denouncing links between high level politicians and drug trafficking. That was sort of his early claim to fame in the Colombian Senate before he was president. Now, on the other hand, Nicole, people in the government are taking these threats very seriously. They say that what Trump did in Venezuela over the weekend is a sign that he is willing to follow through on these threats, and it is causing significant alarm in the government here in Bogota. The other cause for concern, serious cause for concern here, not just in the government, is the fear that given that there didn't seem to be a very clear succession plan in place in Venezuela to replace Maduro, the fear is that the country next door, Colombia and Venezuela, share a very long, very porous, essentially open border. That instability in Venezuela, if the sort of, you know, ruling alliance of what remains of the Maudo regime dissolves, which is something that many experts consider likely, there will be instability, violence that, that will spill over into the border. So generally speaking, Nicole, the sense is one of very, very high alarm that, you know, one thing to consider, though, is the people I'm talking to don't necessarily believe that a military intervention targeting Petro is super likely. What they do think is very likely is political intervention. Because we have elections coming up here in Colombia in March for the Congress and in May for the presidency. The ruling left wing party is pretty well positioned to keep power in those elections if that continues to be the case. Their fear is that Trump will, in one way or another meddle in those elections. And it's not an unfounded fear. We have seen the Trump administration, you know, put its thumb on the scale of elections in Argentina, in Honduras more recently. That is primarily what they're focused on in terms of what they perceive as not only a real threat, but a plausible threat.
- [31:15]
Host David
Nicole, it's come out in some of the reporting since Saturday morning that the CIA was on the ground in Venezuela as early as August and that there were a lot of plans inside the country. Is there any sense among the Colombian government that the Trump administration is on the ground in that country planning any such operation?
- [31:41]
Reporter David Noriega
I think they are constantly on alert. They have been on alert. I mean, look, the conflict between Petro and Trump really blew up when these boat strikes started because Petro was one of the first people to really strongly, strenuously and openly attack Trump for those actions. He, from the very beginning, was one of the first heads of state in the world who was calling them extrajudicial execution, saying that they violated international law. At that point, Trump started very sort of publicly, publicly putting a target on Petro's back. It's also not unprecedented for the CIA to operate inside Colombia, for other, you know, American agencies to have a presence in Colombia, whether overt or covert. There is a long history of that in this country. I think the Petro government assumes that the US Government is present on the ground here in one way or another. The question is how, how bold will they be moving forward? And frankly, they're adapting, I think, or trying to adapt to a new reality in which the Trump administration is willing to throw its weight around in the hemisphere in a way that doesn't even have any kind of pretense of respect for democracy and sovereignty. That is really the change that they're adapting to. Nicole?
- [32:44]
Host David
Yeah. Everybody. Everybody adapting to that. David Nourier, have fantastic reporting down there. Thank you for sharing it with us today. When we come back, big questions about the timing of all of this, the Operation Maduro's capture and how Donald Trump want some of the very serious controversies that have plunged his approval ratings to historic lows to be ignored. We'll be right back.
- [33:10]
Host Nicole
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- [33:27]
Reporter David Noriega
The headlines never stop and it's harder than ever to tell what's real, what matters and what's just noise. That's where Pod Save America comes in. I'm Tommy Vitor, and every week I'm joined by fellow former Obama aides Jon Favreau, Jon Levitt and Dan Pfeiffer to break down the biggest stories, unpack what they mean for the future of our democracy, and add just enough humor to stay sane. Along the way, you'll also hear honest, in depth conversations with big voices in politics, media and culture like Rachel Maddow, Gavin Newsom and Mark Cuban that you won't find anywhere else. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Friday with deep dives every other weekend. Listen wherever you get your podcasts, watch on YouTube or subscribe on Apple Podcasts for ad free episodes.
- [34:05]
Host David
With the country's attention temporarily diverted to what has happened in Venezuela, there are a host of other controversies surrounding Donald Trump that he'd very much like for us to ignore completely. So we won't. Things like the fifth anniversary of the insurrection, the January 6th attack on the US Capitol that is tomorrow. The New York Times editorial board puts that anniversary this that that day was a sign of what was to come in a second Trump presidency. The New York Times writing this, quote, it was a turning point toward a version of Trump who was even more lawless than the one who governed the country the first term. It heralded a culture of political unaccountability in which people who violently attacked Congress and beat police officers escape without lasting consequence. Also lost in the news of the strikes on Venezuela and the capture of its leader is the Epstein files and the Department of Justice's mishandling of their release. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee called this out on Saturday, quote, we're sure it's just a coincidence, but today is the statutory date for the DOJ to explain its redactions in the Epstein file productions. We have not forgotten and we won't let up regardless of the president's new unconstitutional actions. To discuss all of it, I want to bring in former top official, the Department of Justice legal analyst Andrew Weissman. Claire is still here as well. Andrew, let's start with January 6th and its anniversary tomorrow and your interview, which is still, if not the only one, I guess it is the only interview with Jack Smith other than the congressional testimony, which was also somehow coincidentally released over the thick of the holiday season. What is your sense of how much people have turned to and focused on what Jack Smith says in his testimony, that without Donald Trump, there is no January 6th?
- [35:51]
Reporter David Noriega
Well, there's a reason it was released on New Year's Eve. That's not when people get their news. It's a real tell. It's a sign that people are trying to bury a story when they release it on that day or, you know, on the Wednesday before Thanksgiving or is you down a call doing comms work on a, you know, Friday afternoon. It's, it's when you sort of take out the trash. And what's unfortunate here is I think people, they can get on going to YouTube, they can get the full interview. But it's really important to hear both what Jack Smith has to say because he lays out the case and the proof and rebuts the questions that are coming to him from the Republican staff. But it's also, you get a real sense for eight hours of who he is and what motivates him and his principles. And so it is important at this time when so much is being done to distract, to focus on the what he describes as the extremely strong case that he developed Both in Washington, D.C. and in Florida of criminality by our current sitting president.
- [37:14]
Host David
Claire. It all ties together, too, by Trump's obsession with rewriting his own political history. And before Jack Smith testified and talked to Andrew, Officer Fanon and Officer Hodges have been out there trying to remind the public of what happened to them at the hands of Donald Trump supporters sent there by Donald Trump. Here's some new compilation of the two of them narrating some of the body cam footage from January 6th.
- [37:44]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
I remember trying to, like, appeal to them.
- [37:47]
Host David
And I said, like, we have these.
- [37:48]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
We have injured officers here. It just seemed to set these guys off. And immediately after that, it's like all hell broke loose.
- [37:58]
Host David
And we start into the melee.
- [38:01]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
You're literally living second by second in that moment.
- [38:05]
Host Nicole
Moment.
- [38:05]
Ambassador Michael McFaul
You know, I was just fully focused on doing everything that I could do.
- [38:09]
Host David
To get these guys the hell out of my way.
- [38:13]
Reporter David Noriega
Someone, yeah, here tries to take my baton again. You wrestle for control, go to the ground. He kicks me in the chest here. At this point, I'm completely surrounded to have no one around me. The medical mask I was wearing got pulled up over my eyes.
- [38:30]
Host David
So I'm blowing blind and on all fours.
- [38:32]
Reporter David Noriega
I feel like I'm about to just get destroyed.
- [38:36]
Host David
That's what Donald Trump, according to Jack Smith, January 6th, quote, doesn't happen without Donald Trump. Yeah.
- [38:45]
Political Analyst Claire McCaskill
You know, I remember the day, Nicole, you and I were on the air, and I remember seeing the video of those people crawling over the balcony at the Senate and sitting up in the d at the Senate and later learning they were defecating in the halls, to say nothing of the vicious assault against law enforcement. It is hard to frankly believe that those folks are now treated with honor by one of our political parties. They are heroes to one of our political parties. That says a whole lot about how far off track we are. And I hope that the Republicans, whether it was Josh Hawley running for his life in the basement of the Capitol or whether it was the others that were huddled in fear, whether it was the brave statements made by Kevin McCarthy and Mitch McConnell and Mitt Romney and even Lindsey Graham in the moments after it happened that they saw clearly what had gone on. They are now blinded to it and all of the other unbelievably bad things this guy is doing. It is a sad moment in our history that this has been allowed, Kerr, and that there weren't serious consequences and accountability. And I do urge everyone to try to read or watch Jack Smith. It is eye opening. And frankly, I think it changes maybe people who weren't really sure. I think it'll change their perspective when they see him standing up to these Republicans trying to make the facts different than they are.
- [40:34]
Host David
Andrew, what happens next for Jack Smith, who does this? He's subpoenaed by the Republicans. He testifies. He tells the truth. As you said, it was so bad for Donald Trump that they released it on New Year's Eve. What happens now?
- [40:51]
Reporter David Noriega
You know, Jack Smith comes off as what he is, which is he is a career government employee who has spent his entire career devoted to us. And he is going to do that. He is going to be the same person. He is not afraid of Donald Trump. He is going to adhere to, to his principles. It's. It's so clear. It was clear in the interview I did with him at an academic institution in London. It was clear in his congressional testimony. It was clear in his position before Congress that he wanted this to be done publicly and so people could see it live, not just after the fact. He really is the best of government service, and he's going to continue to be that way. Nothing about this is changing him. And it is a role model, I think, for all of us and for those people who are going through the road of appeasement to see that you can actually just adhere to your principles and not be cowed and not, and not be afraid of the sort of McCarthyism that is taking place in this country, both sort of domestically and now internationally.
- [42:16]
Host David
See, this is why you and I are like the odd couple. Like, that's who he is. And he's so. I mean, I think the other headline is he had the goods to prove Donald Trump guilty beyond any doubt. He had the goods to convict him for both mishandling national defense information and all of the criminal charges around the January 6, the depriving of civil rights and inciting the insurrection. And you know what? You guys have given me an idea. There's something. There's some problems we can't solve. This isn't one of them. They dropped them on New Year's Eve. But we have about one and a half million people who watch this show. Maybe we'll just use our time tomorrow on the fifth anniversary of January 6th to play that testimony for our viewers. Andrew and Claire, come back and talk us through that. Thank you for spending time with us today. When we come back, a major overhaul of the vaccine recommendations for children was announced today. It may be the biggest challenge to public health yet for Americans from the Trump administration and RFK Jr. We'll tell you about it next. In what could be the biggest shift in American public health policy In a generation, RFK Jr has so far been able to carry out. The CDC is changing its childhood vaccine recommendation schedule, slashing the number of vaccines from 18 to 11. That new schedule, which is effective immediately, will more closely resemble Denmark's. The decision has received major backlash from not just American health experts and medical associations, but also Danish health officials, one senior Danish official telling the Washington Post, quote, personally, I do not think this makes sense scientifically. Public health is not one size fits all. It's population specific and dynamic. Denmark and the US are two very different countries. We'll stay on top of that and tell you more about that in the coming days. We will be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.
- [44:09]
Host Nicole
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