← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Why was Gabbard there in the first place?”
00:42:07
Alicia Menendez is in for Nicolle Wallace. Alicia covers the presence of DNI Director Tulsi Gabbard at the Elections Office in Fulton County, GA, where the Trump administration seized numerous ballots from the 2020 election. Even though it has been disproven that the 2020 election was ‘stolen,’ Fulton County continues to be accused of ‘suspected voter fraud’ by Donald Trump.
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- [00:00]
Narrator/Donald Trump
A KFC tale. In the pursuit of flavor, the Colonel despised the word empty. Empty plates, empty tables, empty stomachs. That's why he made the KFC five dollar bowls like the famous bowl. Creamy mashed potatoes, crispy chicken, corn gravy and cheese. Because the only empty the Colonel liked was when you reached the bottom of that bowl. The Colonel lived so we could chicken.5kfc bowls for just $5 each.
- [00:28]
Andrew Weissman
Prices and participation may vary. Taxes, tips and fees extra.
- [00:30]
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- [01:04]
Alicia Menendez
Hey, everyone, it's four o' clock here in New York. I'm Alicia Menendez in for Nicole Wallace. A scandal is unfolding in plain sight. Donald Trump and his aides and allies appear to be making an election power grab, adding to the suspicions, the fears and the many questions around what the administration is doing after seizing ballots from an elections office in Fulton County, Georgia. The fact that Donald Trump cannot get his story straight, especially when it comes to the question of what the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, was doing there. Here's what Trump said just this morning.
- [01:38]
Narrator/Donald Trump
We have our Director of National and International Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, who's doing a great job. Where's Tulsi? She took a lot of heat two days ago because she went in at Pam's insistence. She went in and she looked at votes that want to be checked out from Georgia. They see why is she doing it? Right, Pam, Why is she doing it? Because Pam wanted her to do it.
- [02:13]
Alicia Menendez
Okay, so he says Gabbard was there at Attorney General Pam Bondi's insistence. That's not what he said, though, last night in an interview with NBC News Watch.
- [02:25]
Andrew Weissman
Why is Tulsi Gabbard there?
- [02:27]
Narrator/Donald Trump
I don't know. But you know, a lot of the cheating comes from it's, it's international cheating.
- [02:34]
Alicia Menendez
As for Gabbard herself, she told Congress in a letter that Trump, quote, specifically directed my observance of the execution of the Fulton county search warrant. Why does the Trump administration have many different answers for Gabbard's presence at the raid. Why was Gabbard there in the first place? Why is the administration seizing 2020 ballots when it has been proven over and over and over again that there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 election? All important questions for anyone who cares about the future of fair and free elections in this country. Anyone who cares about democracy. As for the last question, well, it may be the easiest one to answer. Donald Trump, once again returning to his baseless election fraud conspiracies in his interview with NBC News Watch.
- [03:22]
Andrew Weissman
Okay, let's talk about the midterms. You've recently suggested nationalizing elections. What do you mean by that?
- [03:28]
Narrator/Donald Trump
When, And I didn't say national. I said there are some areas in our country that are extremely corrupt. They have very corrupt elections. Take a look at Detroit, take a look at Philadelphia, take a look at Atlanta. There are some areas that are unbelievably corrupt. I could give you plenty more, too. I, I say that we cannot have corrupt elections.
- [03:51]
Alicia Menendez
Again, not only was there no evidence of large scale fraud in any of those cities, Trump did indeed suggest nationalizing elections. He said, quote, the Republicans ought to nationalize the voting. Growing alarm. What looks like efforts by Donald Trump to seize control of elections is where we start today. Former top official at the DOJ and legal analyst Andrew Weissman is with us. Also, former county recorder of Maricopa County, Arizona, and fellow at the Cato Institute, Stephen Richer is here. And joining me at the table, legal analyst Christy Greenberg. She is a former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY and host of the YouTube show Courtside. It is good to see you all. Andrew Weissman, the fact that this administration cannot get their story straight about why Tulsi Gabbard was in Fulton county overseeing that raid, what does that tell you?
- [04:40]
Andrew Weissman
So I think it's fine for people to think this is looking backwards. And, you know, Trump has this obsession because he, you know, can't lose. But I think the people who do that are missing the big picture. And Stephen has lived this and that is looking forward. And Tulsi Gabbard, I think was there because for an, if there's an allegation of foreign interference, of course this was, would all be bogus. She would have arguable jurisdiction as the head of the DNI if there was, if there's foreign intelligence services who are trying to interfere in the past or in the future. So I could see why she would have jurisdiction. By the way, the idea that she would take a direct order from Pam Bondi the, you know, latest sort of story du jour doesn't work because the dni, the head of the intelligence community, does not report to the attorney general. If anything, it's the opposite. But I think people really have to keep their eye on what the Department of Justice is going to do, what the president's going to do if Tulsi Gabbard issues a report, a bogus report, saying that she has found some sort of fraud in the past election. And remember, she has issued reports that have been scathingly viewed by many, many people because they're not tethered to reality. And I think that is what people really need to worry about. I think that's what's undermining the idea and underscores why they're There is not so much to vindicate the past. It is about what the elections, the upcoming elections will be like in this country.
- [06:29]
Alicia Menendez
Stephen, speak to that point. If she does, in fact, put out such a report, then what is the recourse for election officials like yourself?
- [06:38]
Stephen Richer
Well, I think that we'll have to deal with more of what we've dealt with over the past four years, which is lies and conspiracies about how elections are administered in the United States. And I, as well as many other election officials throughout, have been doing our very best to teach Americans about how elections work. So we talk about foreign interference. For instance, President Trump reinvoked the notion that Italian spy satellites have somehow interfered with the 2020 election. But then we tell people, well, in 98% of jurisdictions in the United States, we have paper ballots, as was in the case in Georgia in 2020. And paper ballots are excellent because you can't hack paper ballots. And so the difference this time is that a lot of these allegations and conspiracies will be coming from within government. And the only thing I don't know is to what end? Is it just to create doubt or is it pretext for something different, something more aggressive? Already we've seen actions from the federal government that we've never seen before. I don't know what else is coming.
- [07:45]
Alicia Menendez
Right. It could be also, of course, as it often is with this administration, all of the above. Christy Greenberg, notable that Fulton county is playing this out in the court of law, saying we want those files back, we need those files back. Also asking to see the affidavit that led to this seizure. I understand from other attorneys that may be unlikely to be granted by a judge, but if it were, what would it tell you? And how does then it become important? What the chain of command was within the administration over who decided to send.
- [08:15]
Christy Greenberg
Tulsi Gabbard there well beyond the affidavit. Even in the warrant itself, it may give in some indication as to who are the authorized individuals who are executing this search.
- [08:26]
Alicia Menendez
Yes.
- [08:26]
Christy Greenberg
Is Tulsi Gabbard listed in the indictment in the warrant as somebody who was actually executing it? Likely not. Todd Blanche said he didn't know why she was there. So and so that seeing the warrant, seeing the affidavit, seeing what are the alleged crimes here, what was the probable cause to show that there was crimes? When we've seen time and again in every lawsuit, I think there were 60 lawsuits, they lost everyone showing there wasn't election fraud. And again, we're going back to 2020 for this 2024. He's crickets that there's no fraud. The most recent election. He's not claiming there was any fraud because he won. So it's very hard to understand how it is that they would have jurisdiction to be able to say because of fraud six years ago. But we're not alleging anything was wrong two years ago. Now we can make all of these changes for the midterms. I think it's going to be a very strained argument, but they're certainly going to try it.
- [09:20]
Alicia Menendez
It's not an accident, Stephen, that we're talking about Fulton County. Fulton county was in many ways ground zero for all of these 2020 conspiracies. I just think it's important, though, to talk about the fact that it is not just Fulton county where we have seen Dni Gabbard show up. There's this new reporting today. This is from Reuters. Let me read a little bit to you. A team working for President Donald Trump's spy chief, Tulsi Gabbard, last spring. Last spring led an investigation into Puerto Rico's voting machine, said Gabbard's office and three sources familiar with the previously unreport. The sources said the goal was to work with the FBI to investigate claims that Venezuela had hacked voting machines in Puerto Rico, but added the probe did not produce any clear evidence of Venezuelan interference in the US Territories elections. These are the two instances we know about. Do you have any reason to believe that they could be looking at other voting sites and if they haven't, that they will?
- [10:21]
Stephen Richer
Well, I suspect Phoenix would be on the early tour stop list, so perhaps we'll be seeing that soon, but I certainly hope not. We do know that they visited Colorado, or at least some federal government authorities visited Colorado last year and attempted to seize voting equipment. Now, to what ends? I don't know. But what that story evidence is is that there is no such thing as, as a dead theory, because that story is talking about Dominion tabulation equipment that was supposedly rigged by Hugo Chavez from the grave in order to flip votes from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. Now, that claim has been defeated in so many ways that it's hard to count. But I think most noteworthy, Fox News had to settle for approximately $800 million for airing that claim against Dominion. And so I don't know how thoroughly we can debunk something to have it go away, but it seems like there's never an end. And that's one of the frustrating things for election officials is that it's not about just getting answers to questions for these people. But you know that there are some people who just want answers to the questions. And so we try to distinguish those people and we try to answer them where they're asked in good faith.
- [11:43]
Alicia Menendez
I mean, Andrew, when you have the ghost of Venezuelan president's past somehow factoring into present day elections, you know, you're already in Looney Tunes land. But to your point about the fact that this isn't really retrospective, that is all there to set a predicate for what can and may happen in the future. You had Steve Bannon on his own podcast giving a preview of how he at least see, sees this potentially playing out. Take a listen.
- [12:12]
Narrator/Donald Trump
You're damn right we're gonna have ice surround the polls come November. We're not gonna sit here and allow you to steal the country again. And you can whine and cry and throw your toys out of the pram all you want, but we will never again allow an election to be stolen.
- [12:30]
Alicia Menendez
So I understand he's a podcaster, he's a provocateur. Take all of this with a few grains of salt and. And yet when you watch what is unfolding in Minneapolis and other American cities, it becomes clear that the possibility of armed force, the possibility of national officers being deployed for things that are beyond their scope of work, is possible or probable, depending on your vantage point.
- [13:04]
Andrew Weissman
So, you know, when I was saying look forward, I want to make clear, that's just not my speculating about what, you know, concerns me. The Wall Street Journal last week when this happened, talked about that Tulsi Gabbard would would be anticipated to issue a report that there would be executive orders that could come from that. I think a really fair question for journalists to be putting to Pam Bondi and Todd Blanch, the attorney General and the deputy attorney general is something I am concerned about is whether they will simply go in and try to seize ballots in either blue states or blue cities on a claim of this is evidence that they need for allegations of fraud. Will they try and tamper with elections? Will they enforce the criminal statute that says that it's illegal to send in armed forces to surround an election? We rarely have had to deal with that statute because fortunately this country, that's not been a possibility. But now we are seeing that being floated by the President and his allies. And I think those are really important questions for the attorney general and deputy attorney general to answer. And if they don't answer it, it tells us that these kinds of concerns that are being raised, not just here, but you know, but also the Wall Street Journal. So think of that. Ms. Now and the Wall Street Journal focusing on issue because of what we're seeing going on and the comments being made by this administration, it strikes me.
- [14:49]
Alicia Menendez
Christy Greenberg, that when Donald Trump has used his Department of Justice to go after some of his most outspoken critics, one of the reasons that their attorneys have been able to make the case for selective prosecution is that Donald Trump forecasted all of it, either on social media platforms or in interviews. So when he is in this interview with Tom Yamas at NBC News and he's specifically naming American cities, I would note American cities that tend to have large black populations, American cities that have Democratic leadership, Detroit, Philadelphia, Atlanta, does that have any legal salience, the fact that he is forecasting, and I mean, again, we've watched this play out so many times. Yes. He may be asked, have you had a conversation directly with AG Bondi about this? He does not need to. He's on one of the largest platforms in American media forecasting what it is he wants.
- [15:40]
Christy Greenberg
Right. And as you said, this is exactly what would go into any brief to challenge his actions because he forecasts it, he tells you exactly what he is going to do. There are plenty of things he lies about, but there are plenty of times where he is completely transparent. And this is one of them. He is telling you the target cities.
- [15:56]
Alicia Menendez
Those are blue cities.
- [15:57]
Christy Greenberg
It's no surprise that that's where he is looking. And you know, I think it's so interesting because will he go and seize ballots? Well, it seems like he's going to say he's gonna find the fraud later after the fact, after he figures out whether or not those cities went for him or not. That's what's so fascinating about the fact that, again, he's not he's quiet about 2024 because he won that election. I mean, it's so transparently ridiculous and absurd on its face. So when he's saying these things, look, I think this Department of Justice is shown they are willing to play ball. Their mantra is not what the law says, it's what would Donald Trump do? What does he want us to do? Whatever we think that is, that's what we'll do.
- [16:38]
Alicia Menendez
The fraudsters just took off in 2024. They needed a break. They didn't need to worry about it so much. Stephen. And Stephen, I think part of the challenge of talking about all of this, one of the things that hopefully we have all learned from the past few years is that if anything, we've had a failure of imagination about what it is Donald Trump is willing to do in order to dismantle this democracy. You had what I thought was a brilliant piece in the New York Times, sort of anticipating and supposing one of those many ways. Let me read you some of your own writing. Recently, a number of states have undertaken investigations into noncitizen voting, cross checking voter rolls with citizenship status and found it virtually non existent. Playing politics with the idea of fraudulent voters and stolen elections comes at a real cost to American confidence in our elections. It's an affront to our democracy and to all those who work to deliver fair and free elections. It's also an ominous sign for where things may be heading this year. Again, I think when we talk about the immigration enforcement that we have seen all over this country, it's never really been about immigration. It is fundamentally about challenging the rule of law. And there is a very direct line that we can draw from this mass deportation machine to an administration that wants to use some of the same armed officers to reckon with American elections.
- [18:00]
Narrator/Donald Trump
Yeah.
- [18:01]
Stephen Richer
And you'll see more and more that some of the allegations coming from the President, some of the allegations coming from this new administration are just as crazy as stuff that you might see on social media, in the Internet. But again, it's coming from government, which is a pretty wild phenomenon. And I think that's going to supercharge people's distrust and disconfidence and in the election process. Now, I don't know to what end. I don't know. Again, as you said, if it's just chaos for chaos sake, doubt for doubt's sake, or if it's towards some particular goal, some particular federal government involvement. But what I concluded at the end of that article was that I couldn't have possibly predicted that the FBI was going to seize 2020 election material from Fulton County. I couldn't have possibly predicted January 6, 2021. And and so I perhaps need to get in a more imaginative state to be able to be helpful in whatever's coming next.
- [19:01]
Alicia Menendez
And as Andrew reminded us earlier, we don't even need to fully use our imaginations because there is already reporting telling us some of exactly what they plan to do. Steven Richard, thank you so much for starting us off today. Christy. And Andrew, you're sticking with me because when we come back, something Andrew has been eager to talk about, how the Trump administration's immigration crackdown has pushed the court and their prosecutors to the brink. Plus, the FBI has joined local Arizona officials in the search for Savannah Guthrie's mother, Nancy, hoping a reward will help reunite the family. What we know about the ransom notes they are right now investigating. Later in the show, we're going to bring you what may be the latest cultural marker in a new reality for Donald Trump, the American voters turning on him. We're going to show you the surprising new place that's coming from all those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after this.
- [20:04]
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- [21:04]
Andrew Weissman
The streets of America.
- [21:05]
Alex Tabit
Whole communities targeted for removal. And when accountability finally came knocking, the burn order to cover it all up.
- [21:13]
Narrator/Donald Trump
Rachel Meadow presents Burn Order all episodes available now.
- [21:20]
Alicia Menendez
The absolute strain that Donald Trump's aggressive immigration crackdown is putting on the Justice Department, especially when it comes to the surge of cases in Minneapolis exploded into full view this week. Federal prosecutor handling a crippling caseload of people who were illegally Detained was pressed by a judge on why his orders were being defied. That prosecutor Julie Lee, told the judge, quote, sometimes I wish you would just hold me in contempt, your honor, so that I can have a full 24 hours of sleep. The system sucks, this job sucks, and I am trying every breath that I have so that I can get you what you need. She further exposed the breakdown between ICE and the Justice Department when she said that trying to get them to comply with court orders or even answer her questions was, quote, like pulling teeth to get things fixed. Those extraordinary comments voicing a bubbling frustration within DOJ Costly her job at the department just hours later. That's according to three people familiar with the matter who told the New York Times. We are back with Andrew and with Christy. Andrew, is this a breaking point?
- [22:25]
Andrew Weissman
We are. We are witnessing a national tragedy in real time in Minnesota with. I mean, just remember right now, there still is no ability for the state to get access to all the evidence they need in the Renee Good and Alex Preddy shooting. The federal government's position is we are not letting you see that evidence. What. What is the legitimate reason for that? The judge who, in the case that you were just referring to, Alicia, was talking to that attorney because over and over and over again he found that ICE had detained people illegally against the Constitution. Not the worst of the worst. And he called this hearing to go over that. I'm going to do my best sort of Rachel Maddow impression and just read a little piece of it, if you would indulge me. This is what he had to say. Detention without lawful authority is not just a technical defect. It is a constitutional injury that unfairly falls on the heads of those who have done nothing wrong to justify it. The individuals affected are people. The overwhelming majority of the hundreds seen by this court have been found to be lawfully present as of now in this country. They live in their communities. Some are separated from their families. When a release order is not followed, the result is not just delay. In some instances, it is the continued detention of a person the Constitution does not permit the government to hold and who should have been left alone, that is not arrested in the first place. Then he turns to the people in front of him, the Department of Justice, ice, he says, they are not above the law. You wield extraordinary power, and that power has to exist within constitutional limits. When court orders are not followed, it's not just the court's authority that's at issue. It is the rights of individuals in custody and the integrity of the constitutional system itself. This judge, it's, it's great that he called us out. I want to make sure people understand he is one of numerous judges doing this. And just to pre. But it is not just democratically appointed judges. They're judges, even ones appointed by Donald Trump, who are doing their duty and their oath of office, calling out what is happening in this country.
- [24:57]
Alicia Menendez
What do you make of those remarks from the judge?
- [25:00]
Christy Greenberg
I mean, like Andrew said, he's one of many. You continue to see this play out in courtrooms around the country where prosecutors are getting up there and they are plainly frustrated, maybe not verbalizing it the way that this prosecutor did, but they are frustrated. They are not getting guidance. This prosecutor said there's no guidance or direction about what we need to do here. And they are overworked. And, and when you're not being given the information to actually tell the court what is actually happening and tell the truth, it puts all prosecutors in a really tough spot. And so we saw that playing out here, and we see the judges frustration. So if anybody is going to be held in contempt, it should not be Julie Lee. The judges should be calling the people who are making these decisions, the leadership of the Department of Justice, calling them into court and having them answer for their policies and their complete justice dereliction of duty to actually handle what is going on. I mean, you have ICE agents who are apparently not in communication with the prosecutors. They can't get answers. And it's all because of this surge that is clearly not planned out and is there just to intimidate and scare people, have them try to leave the country. It's not there because we are trying to get the worst of the worst. That is just, I think, plainly at this point, a lie. It is.
- [26:19]
Alicia Menendez
I would build on the point that you are making, Andrew, in that you. They are telling on themselves. Right. If you were actually interested in reforming the system and getting to the actual core of the crisis, part of it, over the course of many presidential administrations, has been that there simply were not enough judges to process asylum claims, to process deportations. A big part of the clog in the system has been the courts. They have moved forward with this aggressive law enforcement effort in the field without properly supporting what would be the back end. I don't agree with what it is they're doing, but even if you did, they are not logistically carrying it out correctly.
- [27:03]
Andrew Weissman
Absolutely. But I just want to point out something else, which is, of course, they are not staffing this. They're not. They're not doing what the, the judges is saying, but it's really important to know that if you put Tom Homan in and you say I'm taking 700 people off the streets but you still have 2000, you're not doing anything to change the policies. You're not saying that you should take the mass off your face because you're in law enforcement and you shouldn't be running around the country in mass. You're not going over with them what their training should be on the use of deadly force. So you don't have a Renee Good and Alex pretty happening week after week. You're not giving access to information to the state so you can have an independent and fair investigation. None of the policies that are at the core here are being changed at all. They think that this is like a game of three card monte where if you move one person into the position and take another person away, that that's going to fool people. The policies that are leading to this cruelty are the same regardless of who is at the top.
- [28:17]
Alicia Menendez
Andrew Weissman, you are no Rachel Maddow, but you are the best Andrew Weissman in the entire world. So thank you so much for being with us. Christy Greenberg, you are sticking with me. When we come back, officials searching for Nancy Guthrie with new details today on the timeline of her disappearance as they reveal news of a deadline looming. What we are learning what's next.
- [28:45]
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- [28:59]
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- [29:25]
Narrator/Donald Trump
Code LOVEMIRA@miracare.com as President Trump continues implementing his ambitious agenda. Follow along with the MSNow newsletter Project 47. You'll get weekly updates sent straight to your inbox with expert analysis on the administration's latest actions and how they're affecting the American people.
- [29:46]
VRBoCare Advertiser
The American people are basically telling the president that they are not okay with any of this.
- [29:50]
Narrator/Donald Trump
Sign up for the Project 47 newsletter at ms.dot now. Project 47.
- [30:02]
Alicia Menendez
Some significant updates today in the urgent search for Nancy Guthrie, the 84 year old mother of Today show host Savannah Guthrie, including a $50,000 reward. Authorities say Nancy Guthrie was likely taken against her will on Saturday night from her home outside Tucson and without the medication she needs to take daily. Today, officials confirm that they found blood on the doorstep which they've identified as Nancy's. They also released a new approximate timeline of events and confirmed that they do not have access to the doorbell camera or the video from it, including what the camera identified as a person at 2:12am on Sunday, hours before Nancy was reported missing. Officials have yet to publicly identify a potential suspect or person of interest, asking that anyone with any information call 1-800-call-FBI. You can also call 911 or the Pima County Sheriff's Office at 520-351-4900. The FBI's Assistant Special Agent in charge also confirmed they are aware of ransom letters that they are taking seriously, including one with a deadline of 5 o' clock today. Last night, Savannah Guthrie and her siblings posted an emotional plea on social media to their mother's possible kidnapper.
- [31:19]
Savannah Guthrie
Our mom is our heart and our home. She is 84 years old. Her health, her heart is fragile. We are ready to talk. However, we live in a world where voices and images are easily manipulated. We need to know without a doubt that she is alive and that you have her.
- [31:52]
Alicia Menendez
I want to bring in retired FBI agent and national security and intelligence analyst Chris o', Leary, who is a former director of hostage recovery for the US Government. Christy is still with me. Let's start our hour with the reporter Alex Tabit in Tucson, who is right outside the sheriff's department. Alex, what more did we learn about those ransom letters?
- [32:12]
Alex Tabit
Well, Alicia, we learned that the FBI is taking the ransom letters that were circulated to local TV stations here in Tucson and to TMZ very seriously. And they say they're taking them seriously because those ransom letters, which match which the same ransom letter was sent to several different media outlets, they're taking him seriously because of the facts detailed in those ransom letters. Two of those facts include the fact that Nancy Guthrie was wearing an apple watch at the time of her disappearance. Another one of those facts is the fact that there's a floodlight hanging from her home. But the FBI special agent on this scene on this case, Heath Yankee, did say that there have been media reporting about the apple watch in the recent days that that floodlight is visible from the street. So that while they're saying that they may be legit, these ransom notes that they're taking them very seriously. They're still also not saying that they're 100% legitimate.
- [33:12]
Alicia Menendez
Elise, how do you, Chris, how do you assess the veracity of letters like this?
- [33:18]
Narrator/Donald Trump
So the FBI is going to be looking at, are there details that nobody in the general public has access to? So there's, there's questions about the, the Apple watch and, and certainly the, the light, you know, are there previous images with Mrs. Guthrie wearing that Apple watches? Was she known to wear it? So they could be, you know, if this is a hoax, they could just be grabbing things and throwing them out there. But if communication is established and then finding things that are, you know, real time and only that Mrs. Guthrie would be able to, to answer very specifics, very specific items that would be in a conversation, whether she's directly on the phone with the negotiators and the investigators or if it's done through the hostage takers. But something where you truly could get a proof of life and the legitimacy of the hostage takers, I mean, that's really the next step. And the other things that are happening with regards to this note are the analysis of the language that was used. Is there anything to be gleaned from that? Are these people native speaking Americans? English is their first language. Is there any vernacular that suggests that they're from a certain part of the country or a certain level of education? Or does it suggest maybe she was taken across the border? And this is language that is more consistent with a professional kidnapped ransom organization commonly found in Mexico. So those are things they're looking at. And then also the digital dust they'll be looking for, the metadata behind those emails, is there anything to exploit to really bring it back to where the origin of that letter is and determine if it's legitimate and locate those people or if it's a hoax?
- [35:05]
Alicia Menendez
And then part of what we have, Alex, is now this more analog data releasing an approximate timeline. The Pima Counties Sheriff's Office. Talk us through what this timeline tells us, Alex.
- [35:18]
Alex Tabit
That's right, Alicia. This is a much more comprehensive timeline that we've seen in recent days. Let's tick through it. So on January 31st, that's Saturday evening at around 5:32pm Nancy Guthrie traveled to a local family member's home. We don't know which family member. We do know that she traveled via uber. Then at 9:48pm a family member dropped Nancy Guthrie off at her home. And the garage door opens. Two minutes later, the garage door door closes. Then on Sunday morning, in the Wee hours of Sunday morning, at 1:47am A doorbell camera disconnects. And then at 2:12am software detects a person on camera. And we're also learning, as you noted earlier, that no video is available from that doorbell camera because Nancy Cuthbert did not have a subscription to that service. There's also another important caveat. The sheriff here in Pima County, Chris Nanos, did say that there is at least a slight chance that the software detected an animal and not a person. Then at 2:28am the pacemaker app was disconnected from Nancy Guthrie's home. It's important to remember that. Or from her phone, rather, it's important to remember that her phone was left in her home after her disappearance. And then at 11:56am a family member went to check in on Nancy Guthrie. That is, after she missed church on Sunday morning, which alarmed her faith community, which prompted that faith community to reach out to the Guthrie family and lead them to check in on her. Then at 12:03pm 911 was called, and at 12:15pm a patrol car arrived at the home of Nancy Guthrie.
- [36:57]
Alicia Menendez
Alicia. Chris, I'm so struck by the video that Savannah and her siblings released. Obviously highly scripted, that language, carefully chosen. Can you talk us through what that is meant to convey and, and how officials reckon with the letter that imposes a 5pm deadline.
- [37:20]
Narrator/Donald Trump
So the letter is certainly in part engineered by the FBI Crisis Negotiation Unit, wanting to make sure, you know, that you're giving the family empowerment to reach out to their mother's mother and talk directly to the kidnappers as well, and deliver their heartfelt message, which was very effective in, obviously very sincere, but you're also weaving in a strategic narrative into it, really highlighting different things and also challenging them that if they are authentic, what are you asking for? And let's start this conversation because that's where it needs to go next. You know, there's the concern about Mrs. Guthrie's health. There's an urgency to resolving this. They are receptive and willing to have this conversation and determine what's next. And as special agent in charge of the Phoenix office highlighted, at the end of the day, the FBI and the experts who truly conduct these type of operations nearly on a weekly basis around the world with, with kidnap for ransom cells in Mexico, South America, Central America, throughout Africa, these things are routine. So this is not conceptual for the Crisis Negotiations Unit. They do this all the time, but just giving them the best guidance and advice and support. But at the end of the day, really, it's the family's choice whether they do want to move forward with paying a ransom or not.
- [38:51]
Alicia Menendez
Again, if you have any information, if anyone has any information, you can call 1-800- call FBI. Alex Tabett, Chris O', Leary, thank you both so much for joining us. If we have any new information, we'll bring it to you as soon as we have it. And when we come back, the accountability has been slow, but another name has stepped aside from his job after his association with Jeffrey Epstein became public. We've got that update next. The fallout from the latest release of the Epstein files is growing. A top legal advisor for corporate America, Brad Karp, resigned as the chairman of Paul Weiss after a number of his emails with Epstein became public. The firm's statement announcing Karp's resignation didn't give an explanation for the decision, but quoted him saying, recent reporting has created a distraction and has placed a focus on me that is not in the best interests of the firm. I want to bring in senior legal reporter Lisa Rubin. Christy is with me as well. He wrote these emails after Jeffrey Epps Epstein had been charged with crimes.
- [39:59]
Lisa Rubin
He did. He wrote these emails after Jeffrey Epstein, more importantly, had pled guilty to crimes. And he continued his association with Jeffrey Epstein, ALICIA, well into 2019. I think one of the most interesting email exchanges that I saw was from April of that year, when Brad Karp is advising Jeffrey Epstein and his lawyers about how to contest a lawsuit brought by victims who wanted to reopen Jeffrey Epstein's old plea because they were never given notification of it. And Brad Karp is essentially saying in this email, not only are the arguments that are being made by this brief overwhelmingly persuasive, but he really likes how it puts the lie to the fact that the victim strategically stood back and let it all happen, let him go to prison, and then came forward for a person who has positioned himself and in particular his law firm as protectors of social justice even as they continue to do work for corporate America. His clients included everyone from Citigroup to the NFL. That was perhaps one of the most damning emails to come out of all of Brad Karp's correspondence with Jeffrey Epstein.
- [41:00]
Alicia Menendez
It's sort of this ongoing cycle of accountability.
- [41:04]
Christy Greenberg
It is, and yet it's not there. There, there's still, I mean, we haven't seen so much of it. There's 3 million pages, roughly, that we still have not seen. And they've only withheld roughly 200,000, they're saying, for privilege. So it's really unclear why they've withheld as much as they Have. And then with respect to accountability for others that are in there, there are some very disturbing allegations that are in these Epstein files. There's actually an overview presentation that the FBI put together with accusations against 13 prominent people. And usually when you're pulling together the accusations, there would be some explanation of what happened. Did you investigate, were the sources found credible? It's these are the accusations. So it kind of leaves you guessing and trying to pull together pieces from different parts of the files. It's not really clear that there were various people where there were serious accusations that the FBI did and DOJ did all that much about it. And I think that, for me, was the most troubling thing to come out so far.
- [42:06]
Alicia Menendez
I want to read you one of the Dems who's been leading the charge for accountability. What they had to say to Politico about people like Brad Karp facing consequences. We need more information about those folks. There's evidence that leads to abuse and trafficking. Then those folks needs to be exposed. I do believe that accountability has begun, but there's an enormous amount more to do. I mean, you've heard Garcia say, this is not over. There are multiple paths to accountability. It also feels, though, that the scope of people we are looking at continues to expand.
- [42:36]
Lisa Rubin
I think that's absolutely true. And I also, I like what Robert Garcia said about accountability and challenging people to think about accountability in ways that are broader than criminal prosecution. There may be some people here who should have been followed up on by the FBI. And I share Christie's concern about that FBI presentation, which I've seen, too. One of the things that's troubling here is that when you include allegations that aren't followed up on and you mix it all together with people who were incredibly credible, testified at Ghislaine Maxwell's trial, talked to the FBI and prosecutors multiple times, you sort of end up conflating all of them. And it not only means that some allegations that aren't serious are taken more seriously than they deserve, but more importantly, it deflates the importance and undermines the credibility of those people whose stories were found to be credible enough that they testified against Ghislaine Maxwell and succeeded in having her convicted. That having been said, accountability also means people losing their positions of power. Today as we sit here, Brad Karp is no longer the chairman of Paul Weiss. But one thing that people aren't noticing enough, Brad Karp remains a partner there. And I wonder why it is that Brad Karp is continuing to practice at Paul Weiss. To me, that's not very much of a consequence at all. So you lose your chairmanship of your big law firm, but you continue to be a member in good standing of the partnership. That's an interesting conclusion.
- [43:53]
Alicia Menendez
Interesting is one word you could use. Lisa Rubin, thank you so much. Christy Greenberg, thank you for being with me for the full hour. After the break. One lawmaker's message to God to get Donald Trump to do what's right for everyone. Going to show that to you next. Donald Trump took the stage at the National Prayer Breakfast today and delivered what can only be described as a tirade of digs against immigrants, against politicians who disagree with him, like calling Thomas Massie a quote, but then announced he should probably get into heaven. I'm gonna spare you all that, but we do want to play for you a moment that is striking where Trump standing behind him, Democratic congressman from Illinois, Jonathan Jackson, attempted to appeal to Trump's better angels. Take a listen.
- [44:49]
Narrator/Donald Trump
We pray that he would be mindful of the poor and that the good and that he would be invested in the elevation, the alleviation of suffering happening on farms in the Midwest, in the families preparing to bury their loved ones in Minneapolis. Remind him that we are all Americans, all made in the image of God, and that none of us are free unless all of us have our freedoms protected.
- [45:13]
Alicia Menendez
Trump thanked him for his words. Unclear if they'll stick, but one can pray. After the break. New outrage from an unlikely source highlighting the new reality for Donald Trump as the midterm elections get closer to gonna bring that to you next.
- [45:35]
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