"With Presidents like these, who needs enemies?"

Summary

Podcast Summary: Deadline: White House

Episode: "With Presidents like these, who needs enemies?"
Date: May 15, 2026
Host: Nicolle Wallace, MS NOW
Featured Guests: Sue Gordon (former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence), Reverend Al Sharpton, Molly Jong Fast

---

Overview

This episode delves into the recent foreign policy setbacks of President Donald Trump, specifically his fraught trip to China, shifting stances on Taiwan and Iran, and the broader ramifications for America’s global standing. It also explores domestic power grabs by Republican lawmakers through voter suppression and gerrymandering, and how these actions are fueling a new wave of civil rights activism. The discussion flows between urgent international crises and grassroots responses, highlighting both political missteps and collective mobilization for democracy and justice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Trump’s China Trip: A “Resounding Victory for China”

(Main Segment: 01:45 – 09:14)

• Failure to Achieve Objectives:
  Trump’s visit yielded “zero trade deals” despite promises ([01:45]). He appears to have softened America’s decades-long position on selling arms to Taiwan under Chinese pressure.
• Public Weakness:
  Trump frames cyber espionage as reciprocal (“We spy like hell in that too” – Trump, [00:53]), equates Chinese and American actions, and is depicted as dismissing the strategic importance of Taiwan.
• Host and Analyst Take:
  Nicolle Wallace and Sue Gordon describe Trump as “behaving more like a fan of Chinese superpower ambitions than a leader of the United States” ([01:45]). Gordon underscores the “profound impact” of equating US and Chinese policy, arguing it signals to allies that America may be “changing sides” ([10:23]).
• Xi Jinping’s Advantage:
  Gordon highlights that Xi didn’t move on any major positions and “played a 100-year game,” while Trump looked for immediate optics ([05:53]).

Notable Quote

Sue Gordon: “There is a difference...We don’t go trooping into Chinese companies and steal their intellectual property...they have national security laws that insist that every Chinese citizen or company...must provide their information. We don’t. So it isn’t the same. I reject the notion that it’s the same.” — [10:23]

---

2. Fallout on Taiwan and America’s Global Standing

(Important Segment: 13:24 – 16:22)

• A Stark Departure:
  Trump’s public rationale for not defending Taiwan (“it’s 9,500 miles away”) “has never been an American president’s answer to Taiwan,” Wallace points out ([13:24]).
• Alarm for Allies:
  Gordon says, “It’s like we’ve changed sides…our allies and partners are making [decisions] for themselves.” She calls on Congress and the American public to recognize the gravity and advocate for US interests ([14:20]).
• Incitement to Action:
  Gordon urges, “Ask your representatives, start making this a question that you care about, because I’m here to tell you it will matter.” ([17:04])

Notable Quote

Sue Gordon: “Now that [Trump’s isolationism] is articulated, the other branches…have better leap into the fray and ask that question and do their job. And yes, I’m speaking to you, Congress, because this…is a big question of national interest.” — [14:20]

---

3. The Quagmire in Iran: War Without End

(Key Segment: 19:45 – 28:24)

• Lost Leverage:
  Trump reportedly signals a willingness to accept even a temporary moratorium on Iran’s nuclear enrichment (“20 year moratorium would be enough for him to end the war”), a dramatic retreat from earlier “never” stances ([19:45]).
• Political Damage:
  Trump’s shifting lines are depicted as desperate attempts to exit an unpopular war. Allies have largely abandoned support, and Iran has rebuilt much of its military infrastructure ([25:54]).
• Analyst Assessment:
  Gordon describes Trump’s shifting as “embarrassing” and “offensive as kind of a serious carer about national security.” She argues that “we are losing power, we are weakening ourselves and no amount of saying something that is demonstrably now untrue is going to change it” ([26:42]).

Notable Quotes

Sue Gordon: “How do you do that with a straight face? And how, how do we maintain our seriousness as a nation? ... We are not the people that [allies] are counting on or have counted on in the past, and they’re just going to accept it and find another way around to a very rewired world.” — [21:31], [26:42]
Host: “How are we not completely screwed in a way we weren’t before it started?” — [25:54]
Sue Gordon: “Oh, we’ve made the world worse.” — [26:42]

---

4. Civil Rights and Voter Suppression: New Energy for Activism

(Major Segment: 29:43 – 37:44)

• Grassroots Backlash:
  Viral clip of Marshawn, a Louisiana voter, excoriates Republican efforts to gut majority-minority districts: “The MAGA party is the last breath of the Confederacy. And I’ll be happy to see millennials and Gen C burial.” ([29:43])
• Growing Movement:
  Rev. Al Sharpton emphasizes that Republican overreach is “forcing all of us together” and unintentionally “reigniting” the civil rights struggle ([31:22]).
• Historical Resonance:
  The episode connects present-day protests to the 65th anniversary of the Freedom Riders, with plans for a massive rally on the anniversary of the March on Washington ([33:04]).
• Strategic Analysis:
  Molly Jong Fast frames these developments as “the last gasp against a multiracial democracy,” noting how the Republican strategy may backfire and energize opposition ([35:25]).

Notable Quotes

Marshawn (voter): “The MAGA party is the last breath of the Confederacy. And I’ll be happy to see millennials and Gen C burial.” — [29:43]
Rev. Al Sharpton: “Donald Trump becomes...the inspiration to civil rights activists and voting activists and women activists, because he is the perfect foil to the policies that a lot of people wanted.” — [33:25]
Molly Jong Fast: “With Trumpism, this is like, last gasp against a multiracial democracy...they’re really just trying to turn back the clock.” — [35:25]

---

5. America in Political Flux: Populist Backlash and Hope

(Segment: 37:44 - 42:25)

• Populist Disillusionment:
  Wallace and guests discuss how Trump’s policies helped him politically by “tapping into something” but his actions in office have exposed a disconnect.
• Cross-partisan Alliances:
  Movements are gaining support from Americans who, regardless of party, “find themselves backing into each other and then embracing” ([38:34]).
• Rising Cost of Living:
  The disconnect between elite interests (billionaires in China) and ordinary Americans (paying $5 per gallon for gas) is spotlighted as fueling this backlash ([39:42]).
• Movement-building:
  Sharpton counsels that “Movements are not what come to you. Movements are what you create” ([41:39]), underscoring the need for grassroots resilience.

Notable Quote

Reverend Al Sharpton: “...They were there because they thought you were for them and now they're finding out you weren't.” — [41:39]

---

6. The Power of History and Change

(Final Notable Segment: 43:37 - 44:49)

• Ken Burns on History and Transformation:
  “You could change.” Burns (as cited by Wallace) reflects on the transformative potential of historic moments: even in times of deep division, individuals can choose to change for the better ([43:37]).

Notable Quote

Ken Burns: “In this age of argument...the powerful stories that we are still able to tell have a kind of medicinal force that realizes that we can transform.” — [43:37]

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:53 – Trump on China, cyber attacks, and reciprocal spying
• 01:45 – Trump’s trip called a “resounding victory” for China; softening on Taiwan
• 03:50 – Trump’s combative Air Force One interview regarding Iran
• 05:53 – Sue Gordon analysis: US “not on the position and strategy side” with China
• 10:23 – Gordon: “He’s wrong. It isn’t the same” – US vs Chinese espionage
• 13:24 – 16:22 – Discussion on US ambivalence toward Taiwan under Trump
• 19:45 – Trump and advisors on Iran: shifting from total denial to seeking an off-ramp
• 21:02 – Gordon calls Trump’s stance on Iran “an embarrassment”
• 25:54 – Iran rebuilding and US strategic failures
• 29:43 – Marshawn’s viral rebuke on redistricting, “The MAGA party is the last breath of the Confederacy”
• 31:22 – Sharpton: renewed, united civil rights activism
• 35:25 – Molly Jong Fast: “Last gasp against a multiracial democracy”
• 38:34 – Ground-level political changes, strange new alliances
• 41:39 – Sharpton: “Movements are what you create.”
• 43:37 – Ken Burns on changing in the face of division

---

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Gordon’s candor: “Oh, we've made the world worse.” ([26:42])
• Marshawn: “The MAGA party is the last breath of the Confederacy.” ([29:43])
• Sharpton on activism: “What they tried to kill, they may have reignited.” ([31:22])
• Burns on history: “You could change.” ([43:37])

---

Tone & Takeaways

The episode blends sobering realism with hope. The tone is critical yet not despairing: while Trump’s foreign policy is depicted as erratic, self-defeating, and even dangerous, the guests also highlight the organic rise of civic resistance and calls to collective action. The closing focus on history (Ken Burns) suggests that, even in divisive times, the possibility for positive change remains—if citizens mobilize, demand accountability, and remember the lessons of the past.

---

This summary is intended as a robust guide to the episode for those who haven’t listened, preserving the urgency, directness, and reflective critique of the original conversation.

Transcript

[Thumbtack Advertiser]

Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start. Thumbtack knows homes so you don't have to don't know the difference between matte paint, finish and satin or what that clunking sound from your dryer is. With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro, you just have to hire one. You can hire top rated pros, see price estimates and read reviews all on the app Download today.

[Mathnasium Advertiser]

Parents, have you heard your kids say I'm not a math kid? Well, with Mathnasium, every kid can be a math kid. They customize their math instruction so kids who are struggling are able to catch up and get ahead. And advanced kids are challenged to reach higher. Mathnasium makes math fun, so kids learn to love it. Parents say that Mathnasium has not only improved their kids grades, it's given them a new level of confidence in math and in school overall. Visit mathnasium.com to find a location near you.

[Donald Trump]

We always had a great relationship before that and after that. Now it's as strong as ever. I mean, I went over to where he lives, which is something that rarely happens. Were you there? I don't know. Amazing. I mean, people have never seen it before. It's amazing. Actually. We had lunch. Talk to him about the cyber attacks that he's done in the United States or the mss. I did. And he talked about attacks that we did in China. You know what they do, we do too. It's like the spying. They're talking about all the spying. I said, well, the spying, we do it too. Look. No, I'm talking about spying. The question was asked to me yesterday, I guess, what about the fact that China's spying in the United States? I said, well, one of those things, because we spy like hell in that too.

[News Anchor]

Two and a half more years, folks. Hi again. Five o' clock in New York. With a president like that, who needs enemies? Donald Trump on Air Force One earlier today on his way back from his trip to China and behaving more like a fan of Chinese, I don't know, superpower ambitions than a leader of the United States of America, a global superpower. Or at least we were. Those remarks, though, from Trump cap up a visit that despite Trump's bluster ahead of the trip, most observers across the ideological spectrum agree and note was a resounding victory for China. Donald Trump left with zero trade deals closed, something he had stated as one of his key objectives for his meetings with Xi. Donald Trump also appeared to soften on the issue of the US Continuing to sell weapons to Taiwan after being pressed on the issue by Xi. Helping Taiwan to defend itself against a potential Chinese invasion has been America's foreign policy in the region since the year 1979. On that, Donald Trump told reporters this, quote, I'll be making decisions, but, you know, I think the last thing we need right now is a war that's 9,500 miles away. You don't say now in no small part because Donald Trump is obviously stuck in a war in another part of the world about that far away, with no way out. And it is a war that has dramatically weakened him politically here at home as well as on the world stage. It's something that was made all when he was pressed about the war on Air Force One. Here's how Donald Trump responded to questions from New York Times reporter David Sanger, who wrote that damning piece on Xi gaining the upper hand at the summit. He asked about the state of the ceasefire in Iran.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

On Iran, Mr. President, just to be clear, I mean, what's next? The threat of the bombing starting again?

[Sue Gordon]

How realistic?

[Donald Trump]

Well, I don't want to say that. I mean, I'd like to tell you, I'd like to say on a certain hour, on a certain day, the bombing is going to start. I don't want to say that. I can only say that Iran. I could say this with very, very strong conviction. Iran will never have a nuclear weapon. Not going to happen. Mr. President. What would the use of. They have no chance. What would the use be of repeating the bombing? You did it for 38 days. Well, no, we did. And you did not get the political changes in Iran. I had a total military victory. But the fake news guys like you write incorrectly. You're a F guy and guys like you write about it incorrectly. We had a total military victory. We knocked out their entire navy. We knocked out their entire Air Force. We knocked out all of their anti aircraft weaponry. We knocked out all of their radar. We knocked out all of their leaders, number one. And then we knocked out all of their leaders in the second division and we knocked out numerous of their leaders in the third division. And they're very confused. We've had a total victory, except by people like you that don't write the truth. You know, you should write. I actually think it's sort of treasonous what you write. But you and the New York Times and cnn, I would say, are the worst.

[News Anchor]

Donald Trump lashing out at the journalists accompanying him on his trip to China after his own public displays of weakness. Were revealed for the world to see. It's where we begin the hour with former principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence, our good friend, Sue Gordon. Thank you for being here.

[Sue Gordon]

You're welcome. Nicole, good to see you.

[News Anchor]

Let's start with the trip. What is your assessment of both the substance of the trip and the reaction from the two leaders, Trump and Xi?

[Sue Gordon]

So I guess on the top line, nothing bad happened so far. Right. But I think we need to be clear that there were two different games isn't the right word, but it's the one I'll use today. Two different games being played. One was about deliverables, one was about position and strategy. And we were not on the position and strategy side. And with China, we've been here before of thinking that we could get them to want to have our values by welcoming them into the free market system. And interestingly enough, President Donald Trump in his first term was one of the people that sounded the strongest alarm on what China was doing. So anything that he might do that doesn't recognize what their imperatives are that are very different from ours is problematic. That he got what sound to be deliverables, whether it is Boeing jets or soybeans, and they have not yet manifested. So who knows about that? They aren't even strategically big deals in the grand scheme of where we've been left economically with them. And none of them are about the big issues. And if you listen to it, Xi signaled this. He was very clear. His warning about the Thucydides trap was, hey, big boy, we're an ascending power and history is replete with existing powers that didn't recognize that moment. So he was very clear. He did not, she did not back on any of his positions. And his messaging on Taiwan was also very clear. And again, the importance of Taiwan to the United States, yes, we don't like big powers trampling over smaller powers. Taiwan is one of the world's really strong, free and open market societies. And to lose that, to say that, well, I don't know, you know, it's the Strait is just not reflective of its strategic importance in a world order that is reforming at the moment. So I don't think it's very hard to understand what happened here. The president went in with some things he needed. He came away with rhetoric and a few deals, and Xi didn't change one whit on his strategic position about the things he needed. So I don't think this is mysterious in terms of how it actually played out.

[News Anchor]

Sue, in the early months of covering the war in Ukraine. A lot of people pointed to the global implications of the United States of America not supporting Ukraine, and then the blow up in the Oval Office having global implications. And it wasn't clear if Trump didn't believe them or didn't care or saw sort of Putin's sphere of influence and seemed to think, well, Putin has a right to that. That's in his sphere. I mean, his response to the questions about Chinese spying, which has been a national security imperative for American presidents of both political parties forever, to just shrug it off and be like, everybody does it. It's reminiscent of his answer when he was running for president to Joe and Mika on Morning Joe when they said, putin isn't like us, he kills people. And Trump says, oh, we kill people too. I mean, what is the impact around the world? What assessments are being rewritten today with Donald Trump equating our foreign policy sort of worldview and imperatives and how we operate as being exactly the same as China?

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah. So let me start with. He's wrong. It isn't the same. At least still for the next little bit. We're a nation of laws. There is a bright line between our government and our private sector.

[News Anchor]

Are you sure?

[Sue Gordon]

What? Yeah.

[News Anchor]

Are you sure? Well, still.

[Sue Gordon]

Well, I guess. Great point. Thanks for depressing me even further today. No, but I'm just going to say that there is a difference. Yes. On one level, spying is a really old profession and it has been one of the great tools of strategic advantage for nations worldwide for the longest time, since Gettysburg and before that. But we are a nation of laws, and I've lived in this world and I haven't seen that those laws have gone away. And they do, they do create boundaries. And also, just intellectually, we have had a bright line between what I'm going to call civilian casualties, even that's to include economic casualty. And there just is. We don't go trooping into Chinese companies and steal their intellectual property. That isn't for the same reason. We don't go trooping into our companies and steal intellectual property. So he's wrong about that. There is a difference, and probably the most, most concrete difference is that they have national security laws that insist that every Chinese citizen or company, when asked, must provide their information that they have of any data of somebody else's that goes through and we don't. That isn't our law. And so it isn't the same. I reject the notion that it's the same. Now, if it's being done differently by some people and it hasn't been discovered yet, but just intellectually it's a different thing. But, but to your question of sue, are you sure that's exactly the impact with our allies and partners? It's like we've changed sides, right? It was when he said, you know, maybe I'll, we'll do a joint vision venture on taking tolls from the Strait of Hormuz when freedom of the seas has been as old as our nation. And so whether these things actually manifest or whether they just become what we say, we're okay with that impact with the people that, that aren't sitting with their friends who and saying, you sure? You know, that they're saying, well, I guess I have to assume that. And they have enough observables to do it. So it is a profound impact. And you're seeing it with the choices our allies and partners are making for themselves. Now, is it irrecoverable? I don't know, but they're making it.

[News Anchor]

When you listen to the substance of what he says about Taiwan, which is, why would we want to get involved there? It's 9,500 miles away, which has never been an American president of either party's answer to Taiwan. It's been about its importance, it's been about its people, it's been about its alliance. To us, there's never been the answer, why would I get involved? It's 9,500 miles away. And then you look at the other side of that, all of Xi's unswerving public and private conduct. I mean, even in an interview with Hannity, Trump couldn't say that she had anything collaborative to say about Iran's nuclear program. I mean, she didn't move an inch off of anything to anyone. She didn't go to the airport. I mean, she plays a 100 year game. Donald Trump can't sit in discomfort for 15 minutes. I mean, how do you view our disadvantage on the question of Taiwan right now?

[Sue Gordon]

So here's a bizarre answer that I just thought of. I actually don't mind that he said it out loud because I have believed that it was true, that it had become true, that with this president the way he is, with the difficulty he's encountered with Iran, which has, if Iran was monumentally different from Venezuela, I can't even put the difficulty of China and what it would take to prepare for doing something about that, I think it had been in question and should have been in question, and Taiwan was probably wondering if it was in question. And our allies and partners are probably wondering before he said it out loud. So what I would say, now that he's articulated it, the other branches of government, the other people who are involved, because no matter how much it may seem these days that this nation is completely under the control of one person, that he has now said that those other elements of national power have better leap into the fray and ask that question and do their job. And yes, I'm speaking to you, Congress, because this question, the idea that he would sit by if, no matter what people might say on the edges, if Xi decided to take that by force, when we know what the will of the Taiwan people are, we better deal with that as a nation, because it is a big question of national interest. So I don't like hearing it. I would rather it be out there that we as a nation have to deal with and ask that question of ourselves, what are our national interests? And get the other elements of power into the fray.

[News Anchor]

Just watching Congress, if you were assessing Congress for another ally's information, what would you assess the likelihood of that to be today?

[Sue Gordon]

Zero. But. But one of the things I said for a long time, she has some problems of his own. They may not be problems that are going to make them weak in the short haul, but I don't believe he's ready to do it either. So I. So one of the things you and I have talked about before is why we have these conversations is really to get the American people to say thinking about what's important to you.

[News Anchor]

Right.

[Sue Gordon]

So we're about to have elections coming up. I would say ask your representatives, start making this a question that you care about, because I'm here to tell you it will matter.

[News Anchor]

Yeah.

[Sue Gordon]

It will matter.

[News Anchor]

Yeah. And this doesn't have a partisan divide. 75% of Americans do not approve of China. Yeah. We didn't even get to Iran. Really. I need to ask you to stick around a little bit longer. Is that okay? When we come back, we'll turn to the war in Iran and what Trump's shifting position on Iran's the rich uranium tells the world about how eager slash desperate he is to find an off ramp from a deeply and increasingly unpopular war. And later, how a new generation of civil rights leaders is rising to fight back against Republican efforts to eliminate majority minority House districts all across the South. A fight is ramping up over the weekend. We'll tell you what's being done later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break with Sue Gordon. So don't go anywhere.

[Mathnasium Advertiser]

Parents, have you heard your kids say, I'm not a Math kid. Well with Mathnasium, every kid can be a math kid. They customize their math instruction so kids who are struggling are able to catch up and get ahead. And advanced kids are challenged to reach higher. Mathnasium makes math fun so kids learn to love it. Parents say that Mathnasium has not only improved their kids grades, it's given them a new a new level of confidence in math and in school overall. Visit mathnasium.com to find a location near you.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, tussling over politics and policy when she worked in the White House. And I reported on it.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And now we're friends and colleagues and on our podcast Clock it, we are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

Clock it is where we talk about what we see and hear in the news. So you can start to clock it too.

[Thumbtack Advertiser]

Clock it with Simone and you Gene.

[Sue Gordon]

All episodes available now.

[Military Analyst]

So we were thinking about doing it early on and about getting it. It would take a while. It would take a week and a half. That's a long time to be an enemy territory. No, it's, you're going to move these massive amounts of granite. You know, it's a granite, granite's the hardest stone. It's amazing that it's, you know what, those were really powerful bombs that we used. And don't forget we hit it on top that we had tomahawks on top of that. No, I don't think it's necessary except from a public relations standpoint. I think it's important for the fake news that we get it.

[News Anchor]

So $29 billion and 13 precious lives later, Iran's enriched uranium has gone from a major geopolitical strategic issue and sticking points in the negotiations between the US And Iran to end the war to a quote, public relations snafu comes as Trump appears to be once again scrambling for an off ramp to the war with Iran. And on that war there right now, as far as we can see and as far as we know, there is no end in sight. It is the latest sign that the so called art of the deal president is perhaps in over his head when it comes to negotiating and prevailing against Iran. Earlier today on Air Force One, Donald Trump indicated that that he would be open to a simple 20 year moratorium on Iran's nuclear program and that would be enough for him to end the war. An abrupt shift from his earlier demands that Iran never be allowed to enrich uranium. We're back with Sue. Sue Gordon that the nuclear issue is a, quote, PR issue is again, discordant with everything that everyone has ever said about Iran's nuclear program, including Donald Trump.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's an embarrassment. Right. Because. Because the only. Grace that could have been shown him on the decision to do what he did with Iran was that everyone knows that Iran was a malign power and that nobody wanted them to have nuclear weapons.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Right.

[Sue Gordon]

And this has been true for a long time to now say that the agreement that he ended, which demonstrably had created at least momentarily, a halt in their both aspirations and ability, and then bomb and then go to war, asserting that it was gone forever then, now say, yeah, I don't think I need it to be gone forever. I just need this. And it's really for PR purposes. I just. It and it's. We've talked about this before, too. You need reliability. How, you know, if the President can say anything that the day demands that it shouldn't be enough for the American people. But it is really hard for allies, partners, adversaries and competitors to deal with that. So they didn't have one. It was far away. We made it harder with the military action. That the President is correct, was very powerful and has done major damage. But he is also correct that if anything, we have made them see that they need it more because how are they ever going to be powerful enough to keep us from doing this again if they don't have it? So the idea that somehow he's ended their aspiration or the things, it's so disingenuous at best, and to me, offensive as kind of a serious carer about national security. That said, I, I think he does need a way out of it. I think he has learned that no one is going to come to our aid to get out of it. He has, he has tried various lines that say, well, China's being hurt worse than we are, but, you know, China didn't say anything that said they were going to help us out. Our friends and allies who are also being hurt by this still won't join in because they don't want to join in. So he is kind of at a moment where he's going to have to get out of this thing because he is, in fact, despite all statements that it doesn't hurt, he is hurting his own country at a time where he can't afford to do it because he isn't doing well on other fronts. So I kind of, sue, the moralists will say that that's ridiculous and embarrassing. Sue, the practical person says he now knows that he's got to get out of this. And he has to claim that because the alternative would be to accept a lesser version of the deal that he obliterated. And while you and I might be willing to do that as seeing it as the better part of valor, I think he is not able to walk into that in the same way you and I might be able to. So in a weird sort of way, it's like what he has to create because no one else is coming to help him out. I'm sure he hoped China would, and I think China signaled very clearly in the most tepid fashion. You're kind of on your own. So I, I explained. But America, again, talking to my. To our citizens, be clear about this. The situation hasn't changed, except probably for the worse since the day we decided to go in there and to now say that the one thing that kind of could make sense that some people held on to is said, yeah, we can't afford for them to have it, which is true, is now somehow a bumper sticker, and we're kind of in the same place that we were a minute ago. How do you do that with a straight face? And how, how do we maintain our serious. As a nation? I think the reason why no one's coming is because they realize that we are not, and this breaks my heart, we are not the people that they are counting on or have counted on in the past, and they're just going to accept it and find another way around to a very rewired world.

[News Anchor]

I mean, sue the world. The one thing that even Marco Rubio would say in public was that we had destroyed their military capabilities. The New York Times reported on Monday that they have rebuilt 30 of 33 of the launchers along the Strait of Hormuz and that they have. Whatever damage the brilliant men and women of the military did in their successful strikes against the targeted targets that were created for them, they've rebuilt. And so if we are backwards from the nuclear objectives that presidents of both parties have had, if they have rebuilt all their missile capabilities, if the Strait of Hormuz is now closed and controlled by Iran in a manner that it wasn't when it started, how are we not completely screwed in a way we weren't before it started?

[Sue Gordon]

Oh, we've made the world worse. And I don't, I don't. You know, it breaks my heart that I don't get to read intelligence anymore. So I can't give you any inside scoop about the assessment that was leaked. And I don't believe in leaks and stuff, but this is a really different world from a nation that has to develop on another. They have friends and they have friends who see us weak and are delighted to help hasten that so that China and Russia would view it in their interest to help Iran even while still saying we don't want them to have a nuclear weapon is kind of makes some sense. Right? So again, a clear headed view of this sees what's happening is that we are losing power, we are weakening ourselves and no amount of saying something that is demonstrably now untrue is going to change it. And no one is even so desperate to be aligned with us that they're willing to go along with it. I, you know, I, I always think when you find yourself on the wrong path, all you have to do is take, take a step in the other direction. But this is going to take a long time. You know, you, we will be trusted long after we are trustworthy again.

[News Anchor]

I hear you. Sue Gordon, stay close to the camera. We're going to need you. My friend, thank you for being here today.

[Sue Gordon]

It's great to see you keep doing what you do.

[News Anchor]

Thank you. You too. Thank you. When we come back, anger and outrage all across the south of our country after Republican lawmakers redraw congressional maps to try to keep themselves in power. One voter in Louisiana has gone viral for a stinging rebuke about what he says the redistricting efforts are really about. We'll show it to you next.

[Mathnasium Advertiser]

Parents, have you heard your kids say I'm not a math kid? Well, with Mathnasium, every kid can be a math kid. They customize their math instruction so kids who are struggling are able to catch up and get ahead. An advanced advanced kids are challenged to reach higher. Mathnasium makes math fun so kids learn to love it. Parents say that Mathnasium has not only improved their kids grades, it's given them a new level of confidence in math and in school overall. Visit mathnasium.com to find a location near you.

[Ms. Now Announcer]

Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the Briefing with Jen Psaki and

[Mathnasium Advertiser]

more voices you know and trust.

[Ms. Now Announcer]

Ms. Now is your source for news,

[Mathnasium Advertiser]

opinion and the world.

[Ms. Now Announcer]

Learn more at Ms. Now.

[Marshawn (Louisiana Voter)]

I have no doubt in my mind that the map's gonna pass. If y' all can give us less than 0 seats, you would do it. Y' all do this under the orders of somebody that said the Civil Rights act was harmful to white people. I believe the country as a whole is rebuking your party, y' all are in a death spiral. That's why y' all have to react every district. That's why y' all have to cheat. But the beautiful thing is the children that y' all have made and the people that's younger than y' all don't support none of this racism that y' all want. The MAGA party is the last breath of the Confederacy. And I'll be happy to see millennials and Gen C burial.

[News Anchor]

Gentleman's name was Marshawn. That moment went viral this week during a Senate committee hearing in Louisiana. A resident's powerful rebuke of Donald Trump and the Republican in their campaign to eliminate majority black districts in his state and across our country, putting his faith justifiably in the next generations to bury this political movement. Tomorrow, thousands of voters are expected to turn out in their own cities for a national day of action that's being led by voting rights advocates in Alabama organizing to protest these renewed attacks on voting rights for black voters and court rulings that have weakened, basically gutted the Voting Rights Act. Joining our coverage at the table, political analyst Molly John Fast. She is the host of Fast Politics and a New York Times contributing opinion writer. Also joining us, the host of Politics Nation, the president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton. So, Rev, I asked you when the decision came down, what's going to happen? And you said, well, we're going down there right away, too.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Absolutely. And I think that it is going to grow and it's going to continue to grow because people understand they're being wrongfully disenfranchised. So now it's, it started in Texas, but now you've got all over the south, from Mississippi to Georgia to Florida to Alabama. So when, when different people started calling different actions, people started gravitating toward toward it. Melanie Campbell and Janae Nelson said they wanted to get people to come to Montgomery. Randy Weingarten, and no kings are helping there. Then you have another gathering in Tennessee. And then the civil rights groups, National Action Network is sending representatives, all of them. Our vice president, Ebony Rowling. You speak in Montgomery and Urban League and naacp. I think that they are forcing all of us together because the very tenets of civil rights is in many ways threatened. And you're undoing what Dr. King and others are in history for. It's, it's interesting that this is the 65th anniversary of the Freedom Riders. I have one on my show tomorrow. And we are everything that they gave their lives for or altered their lives for is now being reversed. So it's going to spread all over the country. And Martin Luther King III and I intended to have a culmination on August 28, the anniversary of his father's. I have a dream in Washington to bring everyone together right there where the Supreme Court is on a Friday. So I think they have in many ways, what they tried to kill, they may have reignited.

[News Anchor]

I know you don't wallow a lot in how does this feel? And I know you don't feel a lot of shock and surprise at what the Republicans and MAGA and our allies on the Supreme Court do. But if I could just get you to indulge me in what it is like, as you just said, to organize a GAM for something that happened 65 years ago.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

It is frustrating and challenging because at one level you say, well, wait a minute, the generation ahead of me paid the price for this. Why do we have to go through this again? But at another level, that is the very reason you have to do it again, because can you really want history to say that you were the generation that let all of that go and didn't fight back? So in many ways, Donald Trump becomes the detriment to civil liberties and civil rights, becomes the inspiration to civil rights activists and voting activists and women activists, because he is the perfect foil to the policies that a lot of people wanted. I remember Dr. Wyatt T. Walker, who was Dr. King executive director, he was the first chairman of the board of our organization, National Action Network. He said, when we wanted to deal with how brutal segregation and policing was around it, he said, we chose to go to Birmingham. I said, why? He said, because Bull Connor we knew would even lock up children. And we needed that drama for the country to say, what's going on here? Donald Trump is so mean spirited and so abrasive that the whole world is saying, wait a minute, that's wrong. Even people that would have suddenly let all of that go. Donald Trump is making everybody take sides and people want to be on the right side.

[News Anchor]

You know, there's a piece of Trump, right, that rides into the presidency twice in making people hate each other, right? In stoking the divisions and benefiting from the divisions and the, the, I hate to use the word silver lining because there isn't one, right? But the reaction is to bring together people who would like for some of these fights to be in the rearview mirror, but can't. We don't have the luxury of seeing it that way because they have made these fights, the fights of our time.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Now.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah.

[News Anchor]

And I wonder what you make of what he's awakening. I mean, a lot of these maps are going to backfire because he's so unpopular and so committed to his own denial that the maps aren't going to do what they want it to do. But they're also so unjust that they may have the inverse impact of pushing people into the streets to fight for things that they thought had already been won.

[Molly Jong Fast]

Yeah, I mean, look, when the rep talks about this, I think about, like, the Voting Rights act was the sort of pinnacle of achievement in 1964, and, you know, people died for it. A lot of people died for it and fought for it. And, you know, what we see with Trumpism is this, like, last gasp against a multiracial democracy, the multiracial democracy, democracy that we can be. And they're really just trying to turn back the clock and that, you know, we had abortion back. You know, the Supreme Court, I think, is going to look at the pills again. And so what you're seeing here is, again, they're trying, you know, they're trying to take away what the Supreme Court did was they killed the Voting Rights act, they killed the last bits of the Voting Rights Act. And that's what we're seeing with Roe v. Wade. Again, you know, they're trying. They overturned Roe v. Wade. They want to take us back to 1973 to 1964. And this is this reactionary politics. And so what I think about when I think when I see the rep is when he talked about the Target protests, which were hugely successful and very recent, and they were, because the American people do not like it when the companies that they shop in reject DEI policies. And that was just such a really good example of how these things are backfiring. And that just happened.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

And when Mr. Armstrong and others that started that boycott in Minneapolis, they had no idea what would happen. What people don't understand is that the most successful civil rights events are things you have no way of planning. When we dealt with George Floyd, when I got the call and went to Minneapolis, we never knew it would lead to that kind of movement. Movements catch on when you hit a court that people can relate to public.

[Sue Gordon]

Right.

[News Anchor]

But the people of Minneapolis didn't go out sort of intending to change the focus and change the momentum of Donald Trump's second term, but it had that effect. I have a million more questions for both of you. I have to sneak in a quick break. We'll all be right back on the other side.

[Donald Trump]

1, 2, 3.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

All right, what Are we playing here?

[Sue Gordon]

Sponsors, thank you. Thank you, guys.

[News Anchor]

Thank you so much.

[Simone Sanders Townsend]

All right, everybody.

[News Anchor]

That was former President Obama bringing some of his political star power to the Talarico race in Texas. To the last point we were making about the political wins in this country. I mean, the humiliating political defeats that you really can't even cover up in MAGA media on the China trip, coupled with this really blatant power grab, coupled with this vibe that Trump is so weak he's stealing the midterms. How is this playing on the ground in our politics at a grassroots level?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I think that the politics of it on the ground is that people that may have not come forward and embrace each other are finding themselves backing into each other and then embracing because they are.

[News Anchor]

Marjorie Taylor Greene has joined the chat.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

Right. You could never imagine that people would have empathy for Marjorie Taylor Greenery and saying that, well, I don't agree with her, but don't talk about her like that, because they are beginning to all have to verbalize and put in language what all of us feel. And I mean, I've experienced in my career people that did not like what I stood for ended up saying, but I'm going to stand with you because we're on the same page, and they've united people in that way. When you have a blatant trip while we're dealing with a war in Iran and you're dealing with gas starting at $4.50, it's going higher than that. And the president takes billionaires to China and comes back, and we don't know what happened. We don't know why you went, but we know that Tim Cook and Elon Musk.

[News Anchor]

Elon did great.

[Sue Gordon]

Yeah.

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I mean, so people start saying, wait a minute, I'm paying $5 a gallon for gas. They're changing the district lines to. For no reason, people from divergent places in society start coming together, and that's when change happens.

[Molly Jong Fast]

There are two candidates that I interviewed this week for my podcast, which I think talk about this moment in American life. Dan Osborne from Nebraska and Rob sand from Iowa. And they're both candidates that you couldn't necessarily tell what party they're in. You know, sand has this. He's not red nor blue. You know, he's. And what I think one of them said to me was, it's not really left versus right. It's up versus down, like that. They are working people trying to take back the government for working people. And I think that that seems like something that could be very successful, especially when you're in a state where you have, you know, high rates of farmer bankruptcies, where you have working people who want truckers who voted for Trump but now can't fill up their, you know, the tanks of their trucks. And I think this is like a very smart message for Democrats to start trying to.

[News Anchor]

Well, it's how Trump won. I mean, Trump, it was a lie, but Trump succeeded politically because he was going to drain the swamp. And all that he's done since he's arrived in Washington is build gold ballrooms, remodel the reflecting pond by painting it smear Democrats, attack the media. And nothing has seemed to break him of his, of his spell of forgetting how he won.

[Molly Jong Fast]

And he's given donors really high level jobs in the government and they've done things like the richest man in the world who gutted usaid, you know, so we've really seen that. And I think that's been, you know, this sort of kleptocracy. And remember, he has the richest cabinet ever.

[News Anchor]

Right, right. What do you make of the energy in this country? Like what, what do you, what do you say to people who need hope in this political moment that the hope

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

that you're looking for, you're going to have to internally build it up and go out there and do it yourself? Movements are not what come to you. Movements are what you create. And when you look at what's going on, I think that's what you're seeing is creation of movements because it's a vacuum that has to be filled because no one knows, no one feels they can exist in that vacuum. When you have a president that misreads why he's there, what you and Molly are saying, he's there because he tapped into something, something that I disagreed with, something I felt was his story, but his narcissism tells him they were for me. No, they were there because they thought you were for them and now they're finding out you weren't.

[News Anchor]

That's right. And it's all colliding in the same moment. Thank you guys so much for being here to talk about it. Molly Jong Fast and the Rev, we'll see you this weekend on Politics Nation. Who do you have?

[Reverend Al Sharpton]

I've got Keisha Bottoms, who's going to be running for governor as Democratic candidate. I have Nikiva Williams, I have members throughout the south and I have Governor Bashir. So I've got two.

[News Anchor]

Everyone comes to you. Everyone comes to you. That's about your must say both nights.

[Sue Gordon]

Awesome.

[News Anchor]

Brad, thank you for being here. Quick Break for us. We'll be right back. If you like me, from time to time, find yourself feeling worried about these times that we live in, that they're unlike any other. My best advice is to find an historian. That's what Ken Burns does and it's what makes him one of my most favorite people to talk to. He is my guest on the upcoming episode of the Best People podcast. We got to have our conversation this week in a super special live taping in New York City. We got to talk about Jackie Robinson. We got to talk about his baseball series. Listen to what he told me about the moment Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in baseball in 1947.

[Ken Burns]

I consider the baseball series the sequel to the Civil War because the first real progress in civil rights happens then, right? Then that's the center of gravity of the entire nine inning, nine episode film is that moment right there when it just changes. And you know, and somebody said this to me, somebody said, what if you were a racist and a Brooklyn Dodger fan? What do you do? The first obvious thing is you change teams, right? But you know, he's not going to be the last. So maybe you change sports. Well, pro football, which was nowhere near what it is now, had already integrated other sports were going to do that. Or the third choice is you could change. And so I think in this age of argument, the idea that the powerful stories that we are still able to tell have a kind of medicinal force that realizes that we can transform and overwhelm

[News Anchor]

and that quote, you could change. Premium subscribers get to hear the Ken Burns conversation starting tonight if they want to. You just scan the QR code on your screen to get access to the podcast early and extra bonus content as well. The episode will be available to everybody. If you can wait until Monday. Another break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are so grateful.

[Ms. Now Announcer]

Not sure if you have the experience to start your dream job. Good news. These days it's the skills that count you to me can help you get those in demand. Skills. Want to be an AI mastermind? Learn with us. Game developer. We've got you covered. AWS certified cloud practitioner. We can help you prep. You'll learn from real world experts who love what they do so that you can love what you do. Go to udemy.com for the skills to get you started and get set for your dream job.