← Deadline: White House
Deadline: White House
“Worth fighting for”
00:42:26
Nicolle Wallace discusses the ongoing redistricting fight expanding to more states and more political leaders – and later, the gambling scandal gripping the NBA.
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- [00:01]
Jason Page
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- [00:31]
Nicole Wallace
The connection between the guests on the show is the show all that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.
- [00:53]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [01:04]
Mark Elias
There's a broader principle at stake that has to do with whether or not our democracy can be manipulated by those who are already in power to entrench themselves further, or whether we're going to have a system that allows the people to decide who's going to represent them.
- [01:23]
Nicole Wallace
Hi again everybody. It's five o'. Clock. In New York, former President Barack Obama spelling out in very clear terms the very high stakes in the fight against Donald Trump's efforts to pressure states to redraw their congressional maps and essentially secure more House seats for Republicans before voters go to the polls in the 2026 midterm elections. Yesterday, President Obama spoke with California Governor Gavin Newsom ahead of that state's vote on Prop 50. Prop 50, if it passes, would allow for a new map where Democrats in California could pick up five more seats. Listen to a little bit more of President Obama's message to volunteers supporting that ballot measure.
- [02:05]
Mark Elias
The problem that we are seeing right now is that our current president and his administration is explicitly saying that we want to change the rules of the game midstream in order to insulate ourselves from the people's judgment. They want to change around the maps, not the way it's always been done every 10 years after a census. They want to do it before any election in which they're worried they might lose. As a consequence of California's actions, we have a chance at least to create a level playing field in the upcoming midterm elections. Part of what you're doing right now is not just helping to get Prop 50 passed, you're also helping to embolden and encourage people across the country who maybe have been a little discouraged but know that democracy is worth fighting for.
- [03:17]
Nicole Wallace
We're seeing that fight for democracy spread as the New York Times is now reporting that Democrats in Virginia are planning to redraw their maps. Maps, quote, Democrats are planning the first step toward redrawing congressional maps, a move that could give their party two or three more seats. We are coming back to address actions by the Trump administration, said the majority leader of the Virginia Senate, who confirmed the plans. This coming just one day after as we discussed yesterday, the first swing state, North Carolina, passed a new map that will likely secure another House seat for the gop. But that vote is already under major scrutiny. As summarized in Democracy Docket, quote, the North Carolina redraw leaves 12 of 14 districts untouched, specifically targeting a group of black residents who are moved out of the first Congressional District and into the third, including the district's congressional representative, Representative Don Davis, a Black Democrat. The 1st District will now have a 5545 GOP lien. They add. Former Representative Eva Clayton, a Democrat who represented the 1st Congressional District from 1992 to 2003, slammed the North Carolina GOP for dismantling a district with an historical record of black representation and for moving Davis out of the district he represents. Quote, if you cannot understand that as being, that as being blatant discrimination, then you don't know what discrimination is. Hopefully the courts will intercede. Speaking of the courts, our friend, voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy docket Mark Elias posted just before the vote. If North Carolina enacts this new map, it won't be sued. It will be sued. I don't bluff and I usually win the fight over our nation's electoral map. And our very democracy is where we begin today with some of our favorite experts and friends. The aforementioned voting rights attorney and founder of Democracy Docket Mark Elias is here. Also joining us, former Republican Congressman David Jolley. He's now running for governor of Florida Democrat, which is why we don't see him as often as we used to. But we're glad you're here today and rounding out our esteemed panel, MSNBC senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is here. Michelle, I start with you. President Obama enters the conversation at a moment when Democrats see their first and most promising poll numbers that I've seen since last year's election. In California, 62% of respondents support Prop 50 to support national Democrats. That's a number almost 30% higher than the general approval rating for elected Democrats in Washington. Gavin Newsom has done something really potentially powerful here by nationalizing the ballot measure in California. It's not about gerrymandering. It's about saving democracy. And the voters, at least in California, have heard that message loud and clear.
- [06:11]
Michelle Norris
It was a risky move. First of all, thanks for having me on, Nicole. It was a risky move for Gavin Newsom to do this, and it was smart in the way that they messaged this. If you look at the polling, it shows that people who see this as a national issue are most likely to support this. And those who see it as a state issue are a little bit more worried about power going to the cities and away from some of the more rural districts. But even some of these rural districts, some of these districts are not all in the cities. Some of them are in either the northeastern part of the state or along the eastern border in the Central Valley. But overall, people are supporting this in much larger numbers than even people in California expected. I was speaking to someone who's quite active in California politics, and he wasn't actually supportive of this at the beginning. He was worried about it looking like they're playing by the same rules that the GOP is playing by in trying to manipulate these districts. But, you know, he said that there's just too much at stake, and this is the last best chance for the for Democrats to try to regain some power within the federal government system. And he basically said, you know, we have to rethink how we do things. And you don't essentially bring a rule book to a knife fight. If they've changed the rules and if this is what they're going to do in Texas, then California is the best chance for doing this. And it seems like a lot of the Democratic voters throughout the state and maybe even some Republican voters who are somewhat repulsed by what they see in their party are willing to go along with this.
- [07:43]
Nicole Wallace
Yeah, Mark, I think those of us in the media have to own some of this. But the old frame of do you support gerrymandering or don't you? Is I use this too often, but I'll use it one more time because it's so apt. It's Bruce Willis in the Sixth Sense. It's dead, but people don't recognize it. I mean, the old debates are over. This is the country we're in. Donald Trump isn't hiding the fact that he is demanding that Republican states gerrymander to insulate and pad his results in the midterms so that there's no oversight of things like the destruction of the east wing of the White House, things like the politicization of the Department of Justice, things like the strikes on boats in now the Pacific and the Caribbean without any evidence being provided. I mean, Donald Trump knows that what he's doing at some reptilian level is wildly unpopular, which is why Donald Trump has publicly asked Republicans to rig the maps ahead of the midterms. What Democrats are doing is, I think you and I usually agree on this, coming to the fight later than maybe they could have or should have. But it seems that at least where Gavin Newsom is concerned and where Obama seems to be coming in to help, that the public understands the stakes.
- [08:56]
Mark Elias
Yeah. And I think, look, there are two points you're making here, and both of them are critical for people to understand. Number one, the old rulebook is gone, and Democrats have to get over lamenting it. We have to get over nostalgia. Okay? It's, we're, we're more than nine months into this administration. These are the new rules. So the days of the use of the Department of Justice to prosecute political enemies, that is the world that exists today. Every time I hear a former federal prosecutor tell me that Department of Justice says these rules are all those rules, I just think we're, like, taking a step back. Like we're not moving forward. And the same is true with redistricting. You know, I was on your air months ago now saying that Democrats needed to gerrymander, and I use that word directly. Needed to gerrymander. 30 seats in seven states. 30. When Texas did five, I said we do 30. That was California. Nine. That was Virginia. It was New Jersey, it was New York, it was Colorado, it was Washington, it was Oregon. Okay. And that we should do all of that, because the only rule that Donald Trump understands is that if he does something and there is an overwhelming response, he may back away. And instead he did five. We're matching five now. They're threatening these states. We're doing this, and I think we're now in this back and forth. But at least Democrats seem to have learned the lesson that we need to be in that game of being back and forth because otherwise democracy is going to die on some nonpartisan redistricting commissions, you know, played. And that is, that is just the lesson of this era, is that we need to understand that we are fighting under a different set of rules. And as that social media post you put up said, you know, North Carolina is going to get sued. And if I were to say to North Carolina, I'd be standing by their computer and fax machines tonight. And I don't bluff, and I usually win.
- [10:45]
Nicole Wallace
David Jolly, you are sort of on the front lines in what used to be a battleground state is a pretty tough state for Democrats. Now, tell me what you're seeing and hearing hearing from the voters of Florida.
- [11:00]
David Jolly
Yeah, look, it's very obvious why Republicans are pursuing the redistricting strategy. It's because their positions are historically unpopular. Nicole. Look, we, we have a lot of time to go in this midterm, but it is shaping up like a blue wave, like a 2018. And it's shaping up because Republican positions are so just awfully unpopular. If you look at how the, the public opinion is moving on health care right now with the expiration of the ACA subsidies, but also the rollbacks in Medicaid, you have millions of, in our case, Floridians about to lose their health care. Those are Republican policies, and they're historically unpopular. But instead of Republicans actually listening to the voters and changing their positions, they're trying to change the maps. Because the fundamental premise of gerrymandering is to protect a political party from accountability. And so, yes, it is an attack on democracy because they are actually trying to protect them from where a majority of the country is. The problem is with the amount of destruction they're getting away with, what it will take to rebuild after this. And so, look, I think something Mark said is so very important. I still am somebody who thinks that the Democratic Party should be a party that is advocating for independent redistricting commissions. That's the pro democracy position. But in this moment, where the fight is about democracy, the fight is about where is the majority of the country and what direction do we want to go. The blue states have to fight fire with fire. And to Gavin Newsom's credit, he has entered this saying, look, I'm willing to do it just until the next census. I'm willing to do it only if the red states do it. He is being cautious about how he does it, but he's recognizing we've got to do something to save democracy in this environment. Look for the blue states for doing that. The fundamental premise here, though, is that Republicans are dramatically out of touch. And so instead of changing their positions, instead of actually listening to voters, they're trying to change the maps.
- [12:53]
Nicole Wallace
Michelle, let me introduce President Obama's very public role in this to you and ask you if these dots are related in a public speech. He calls out the universities that have yet to capitulate and says, hey, don't do it, guys. Maybe live off the endowment. I mean, as I count, there's Harvard right now reported to be currently negotiating with The Trump administration. He seems to be speaking directly to them. He calls out law firms, we've got Paul Weiss, Brad Karp, their leader wants a titan in Democratic politics, is the first to go down to Trump and make a deal. Basically is now working for the Trump administration. I believe if it's not his firm, then other firms that followed his path are now doing work for the Trump administration. Media companies have done settlements with Trump for millions of dollars. Things that conveys in social media posts were basically payouts as he smears the journalists involved. President Obama in his comments seems to be calling out that behavior from the people with the most, the people for whom democracy and capitalism have given the most. He seems to have used some of his rare public comments to call them out. But he also seems to be leaning very publicly, maybe even more publicly into this fight to save democracy, this redistricting effort. What do you see and how do you analyze the choices he's making right now?
- [14:27]
Michelle Norris
I see someone who is, as you say, very cautious about the way he uses his voice and his platforms. He loves this country, he served this country. He understands perhaps more than many of us what's at stake because he sat in that office and he understands how that power can be used and what happens when it is abused. What you're seeing right now is someone who is absolutely leaning in a little bit more than he might otherwise want to. Then he might, he might otherwise be more careful about how he uses his voice right now. But in his quiet way, he is sounding a very strong alarm. And it's interesting that he's speaking not just broadly to the American people, but he's talking to people who actually have the power to stand up to this president and asking them to dig deep and figure out how they can stop bending the knee, how they can figure out how to be a beacon in a moment when we need to see that. And he's doing it very carefully. But at the same time, if you listen and if you compare how he's used his voice in the past, this is a five alarm fire. He's not yelling. That is not his style. That has never been his style. But I think when we look back at this moment, we will see that this is someone who was using his voice to sound the alarm. What is a little bit disappointing is he's not the only living president. And I keep wondering why we're not hearing from other presidents. Nicole, I wonder if, you know, you're thinking about that also. Everyone is always asking Barack Obama to step in and spread some fairy Dust around. Where's Bill Clinton? Where's George Bush? It would be nice if we saw a united front of our former presidents speaking out to save democracy in this moment.
- [16:15]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, we would have to go on for four more hours for me to share all that I think about that statement. Of course, I agree with you and my information that they see this moment for democracy in very much the same way. So why they don't speak out? They'll have to answer that for themselves. I'll have to answer that for history at this point. Marco Elias, I sometimes feel like you are a one man, sort of like kind of alone on the wall protecting democracy. We've been having these conversations for so long. Is it nice to have someone like President Barack Obama come in and articulate a lot of the same warnings for democracy in the stakes the way you do?
- [16:55]
Mark Elias
Yeah, look, I'm glad that everyone speaks up and there's no one who I have more admiration for than President Obama. You know, I had the pleasure of knowing him when he was a Senate candidate and represented him in the Senate campaign and was involved with him during his time in office. And I'm glad that he's adding his voice to this. But I think the important thing, Nicole, is that we cannot outsource our voices to others. You know, the fact is that President Obama has a very loud microphone and a very loud megaphone. And yes, I lament that there are other people with loud megaphones that are not using them. But that's not an excuse for each and every one of us who may have smaller megaphones or the people watching this who may not have megaphones at all. But you know what they have? They have social media feeds, they have bridge clubs, they have lunch gatherings, they have dinner tables, they have customers, they have clients, they have friends, they have family. And every one of us has to use the tools we have, the voice we have to speak out in favor of democracy. And it is not an excuse to say that George W. Bush isn't speaking out. If you are a Republican, that's not an excuse for you not to. And it's not an excuse that Barack Obama is, if you're a Democrat, to say, well, I can't command the attention that he does. We all need to use our voice because this is not just a five alarm fire, but the fire is already burning. The White House is quite literally being destroyed every single day we watch. Democracy is being undermined every single day. And we all need to use our voice every day.
- [18:26]
Nicole Wallace
All right? No one's going anywhere. When we come back. In addition to fighting Republican efforts to rig the congressional maps, California Governor Gavin Newsom has also figured out how to troll Donald Trump better than just about anyone on the planet. What he's doing now to shame business leaders and institutions who bend the knee and capitulate to Donald Trump will show you what that looks like next. Also ahead for us, FBI Director Cash Patel called the scale of theft and fraud mind boggling. He's actually talking about an investigation into sports gambling that was announced today by the Department of Justice. It led to indictments against more than 30 people, including current and former NBA players and a well known head coach. We'll bring you that story as well later in the hour. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who've never met each other to have a conversation that has never happened before. But on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.
- [19:38]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts for early access, ad free listening and bonus content to all of MSNBC's original podcasts, including the chart topping series the Best People with Nicole Wallace, why Is this Happening? Main justice and more. Plus new episodes of all your favorite MSNBC shows ad free and ad free listening to all of Rachel Maddow's original series, Ultra Bagman and Deja News. Subscribe to MSNBC Premium on Apple Podcasts. Start your day with the MSNBC Daily Newsletter Each morning. Read sharp insights from the voices you trust. Catch standout moments from your favorite shows.
- [20:26]
Nicole Wallace
The second Trump administration has gone to unprecedented lengths to radically transform America.
- [20:31]
MSNBC Announcer
Stay up to speed with our latest podcasts and documentaries and get fresh perspectives from experts shaping the news. It's everything you love about MSNBC delivered to your inbox. Sign up now@msnbc.com.
- [20:49]
Nicole Wallace
For his latest lesson in the art of trolling. Donald Trump. California Governor Gavin Newsom has announced a new product on his website for the Republican lawmakers and CEOs and institutions. Bending the knee to Donald Trump Watch.
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Gavin Newsom
You will be seen on my Patriot site. New knee pads that I'll be sending out the new signature Siri knee pads for all these CEOs for the university of Virginia that I'll add to the list today for bending their knee for those law firms the Universities, media companies, as this guy's rolling back, you know, rewriting history, putting us back to pre1960s world censoring historic facts. Wake up, everybody.
- [21:35]
Nicole Wallace
We have an update to this story Governor Newsom posted this afternoon, quote, sold out. Wow. Looks like Speaker Johnson bought all 219 of our knee pads for his delegation. Don't worry, John Thune. We will restock soon. We know many of you need them. You can say a lot about the decision to use your platform this way, but you cannot deny that it drives Donald Trump and the talking heads at Fox News absolutely bat bleep crazy. David Jolly.
- [22:08]
David Jolly
Yeah, Nicole. I think Governor Newsom has emerged as the most effective voice, kind of framing the absurdity and the danger of Trumpism. And I say danger very specifically. And my experience has been this. And, you know, being a candidate provides you a little different perspective than an analyst. It is good to have a party that is big enough where folks like Governor Newsom can fight that fight, while others in the party are also messaging and talking about how we provide affordability and housing and health care and excellence in public education. And the fact that Republicans are fighting communities, not fighting crime. And what I mean by that, this is so important, I think for Democrats writ large, there seems to always be these family conversations about what we should talk about and what we shouldn't talk about. We have a duty right now to fight to save democracy. Some party has to fight to save democracy. Some party has to fight to save the institutions that protect democracy. Some party has to fight, fight to defend the marginalize and fight for the constitutional protections of everybody. That may or may not be what the messaging is around the Democratic platform next year. Right. We're in the midst of an affordability crisis. People are worried about whether they're going to go into next year with health coverage. They're worried about access to housing. They're worried about whether or not their kids are going to grow up in an America where they are allowed to love and worship who they choose. That might be where Florida's voters are, and that might be where the nation's voters are. But that doesn't mean we skip past the issues of the last several years under Trump. What Gavin Newsom is doing is fighting the fight with the fire we need and allowing Democrats across the country to take the message about affordable housing and affordable health care to voters who are desperate, desperate for change in this moment.
- [23:47]
Nicole Wallace
I mean, Michelle, I actually think it's even more basic than that. We can't have intellectually honest arguments about marriage equality or health care because there's so much rot in the system. And I actually think the most useful thing Gavin Newsom that is doing is holding up a mirror. I mean, Gavin Newsom is showing the right how flipping ridiculous their worship of Donald Trump really is. I mean, this is the Daily Beast reporting about the Newsom website. The Patriot site set up by Gavin Newsom earlier this year to lampoon Donald Trump's fundraising operation, sells a range of tongue in cheek products targeting the Republican Party and its figureheads. Among them, a red trucker cap that reads Newsom was right and a tank top with the caption Trump is not hot. Maga was particularly rattled when the Democrat decided to flog a $100 Bible, a nod to Donald Trump's ventures selling religious items to his base. All of this is stuff that Trump does. And when they freak out, or when Democrats on a parallel track, you know, sort of wonder if this is elevated enough. This is where our politics are right now. Donald Trump won as the guy who bragged about grabbing women between the legs, held a Bible upside down, went into a Bible market campaign after telling John Heilman and Mark Halperin he didn't know which book was his favorite. He couldn't name any. I mean, the whole thing has been such a charade and such a scam. And that's what Republicans want. That's what the American people chose. And I think Gavin Newsom's most useful function is as a mirror.
- [25:26]
Michelle Norris
Well, that's what some of the American people chose, and we should remember that a lot of them did not. And we should continue to have intellectual arguments about health care and about hunger and about issues that count. But we should also recognize that there are some on the right who just won't hear it. I don't know what Gavin Newsom's sales numbers are like. I don't know how many of these caps or these knee pads that he's selling. But it seems to me that while he's trying to sell these things, he's really talking to one person. He has an audience of one. And that's Donald Trump, who has a very large ego and has very thin skin. And it's an example that we have seen in history of how humor and absurdity and maybe even mockery can really do a number on someone. This is a way that you can sometimes weaken a despot, that you can overthrow a king, and in this case, that you can throw someone like Donald Trump off his game. What is worrisome, though, is when he reacts, I Mean, there are some who say that what happened at the East Wing is in some sort of strange retaliation to the no Kings rally. So to poke the bear means that we might see something even more diabolical. But Gavin Newsom has figured out how to get inside that man's brain. And I don't know that every governor needs to do it, but he's decided that that is what he can do in this battle. And it'll be interesting to see what other governors and you know, how they take up, whether they follow Gavin Newsom not just on this, but in redistricting. For instance, is Pritzker, is Governor Pritzker or Governor Moore in Maryland, you know, will they follow suit and as Mark Elias said, try to protect democracy by providing more of these safe Democratic districts. But Gavin Newsom has an audience of one, and I Donald Trump may pretend like he's not paying attention, but he's watching this and he doesn't like it.
- [27:17]
Nicole Wallace
He's watching it very closely because he's speaking his language. He has a conversation of one, maybe two. Let me show you what Gavin Newsom had to say to Mike Johnson.
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Gavin Newsom
Marcolias, where is Speaker Johnson? Where's the outrage by what the hell's going on in this country? This is not the United States of America. And I just think for me, in many ways, their obedience to these authoritarian tendencies may be the most disgraceful of all aspects of this moment. It's one thing Donald Trump's a broken man. He's trying to break this country. Everybody knows that. But to see people in positions of power and influence do absolutely nothing when they must know better, and I believe they do do nothing. Boy, they're going to have a lot to reconcile at the pearly gates.
- [28:12]
Nicole Wallace
I don't know Mike Johnson, but I used to know John Thune and John Cornyn and these guys that sort of came in the post 911 Republican Party, that was about things that are now wildly unpopular, but it was about things. Donald Trump's Republican Party isn't about anything. And their acquiescence is is a story that Gavin Newsom won't let go. And I think that's a service. Maybe not in the near term, but certainly in the long term.
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Mark Elias
Yeah, look, I think he's spot on about Mike Johnson. I mean, Mike Johnson is perhaps the most pathetic and the most loathsome of all of the Republican politicians, including Donald Trump. I mean, Donald Trump, I wouldn't even say he's a broken man. Donald Trump is someone who wants to be an authoritarian. So, like I can understand why someone who wants to be an authoritarian does things, things that look like he's an authoritarian. But Mike Johnson claims to be the speaker of the House, right? He claims to be third in line to the presidency of the United States. He claims to have the gavel over what goes on in the House of Representatives. And that's before you get to all the religion and all of that, right? He claims to be a politician in control of a body, but he is not. He has handed that gavel over to the president. And if there is one thing, thing, one thing that our Constitution was created to do, it was to not allow a president to become too powerful. And that is because of the experience we had with the King of England and the Revolutionary War. And the theory, the whole theory of the Constitution is not that the courts will check a president, but it's a Congress will. And that it's that people like Mike Johnson will jealously guard their power and their prerogatives, and he's not. And I want to add one more thing. I first became aware of John Thune in 2002 when he ran a very close Senate race against Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota. And at the end of that election, John Thune conceded. I had actually flown out to South Dakota because I thought he was going to contest the election. It was very close, and it would have been within his right to do so, but he didn't. He actually did the decent thing thing. And I cannot recognize that person, that person, John Thune, with who he is today, who has bought into election denialism and has bought into the cult of Donald Trump and has sacrificed all of his dignity for this guy. And all I can say to John Thune and Mike Johnson is history will remember you for the cowards you are in future generations. Your grandchildren and their children will curse the fact that. That you served in Congress and did absolutely nothing. Absolutely nothing when democracy was at stake. And you could do so much. In the last segment, we talked about what President Obama is doing and how that's laudable. And I said that we all have an obligation. Well, history will not forget that two men who were in a position to do so much did absolutely nothing.
- [31:09]
Nicole Wallace
Mark Elias, David Jolly, Michel Norris, thank you all so much for having this conversation with us. When we come back, the FBI announced indictments in what is being called a massive illegal sports gambling scheme. It involves current and former NBA players, the head coach of the Portland Trailblazers, and the mob. We'll bring you that reporting. Next, a pair of bombshell Indictments filed in federal court today have rocked the NBA on the opening week of its regular season. A total of 32 people have been arrested. Among them hall of Fame NBA player Chauncey Billups, who currently is the head coach of the Portland Trail Blazers. Current Miami Heat player Terry Rozier was arrested as well as was former player and coach Damon Jones. The arrests stem from two major fraud related cases. One involves sports betting and the other is linked to what's being described as quote, rigged poker game. The years long investigation spanned 11 states and according to the FBI, implicated the Bonanno, the Gambino and the Genovese organized crime families. I'm told those are the big ones. The case involving Chauncey Billups and Damon Jones centers on rigged poker games that took place across the United States. According to the director of the FBI, the scheme targeted victims who were often lured to participate in these games for the chance to play alongside famous former professional athletes. The second indictment has the potential to blow up the professional and collegiate sports world. Terry Rozier is among those who are accused of participating in an illegal sports betting scheme using private insider NBA information. And again he's a current player. According to the indictment, Rozier and other defendants quote, had access to private information known by NBA players or NBA coaches that was likely to affect the outcome of games or of individual players performances. And he provided that information to other co conspirators in exchange for either a fee money or a share of any profit from their bets. This afternoon the NBA issued the following statement. Quote, we are in the process of reviewing the federal indictments announced today. Terry Rozier and Chauncey Billups are being placed on immediate leave from their teams and we will continue to cooperate with the relevant authorities. We take these allegations with the utmost seriousness and the integrity of our game remains our top priority. Joining our coverage, sports columnist for the Washington Post, professor of journalism at the University of Maryland Kevin Blackistone is back and sports rap host Jason Page is here. Kevin, first, can you put this in perspective? And these were the first stories I read this morning. I think people know I am a huge basketball fan. Seems to sort of rattle the very foundations of the integrity of the sport. Is that an overstatement?
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Kevin Blackistone
No, it's not. Particularly after you read the names of mob families, mob organizations, organized crime that are involved in this. You have to go back some time to find a name like that to be involved in sports in sports gambling. So that's stunning. And also I would say that the technological advancements in cheating at gambling and all the money that's involved, we're talking about $7 million in total. Somebody lost $1.8 million. And you're talking about mob families. This goes beyond just getting suspended or banned from the league. This puts you and your family in jeopardy. So that's the real danger here. But we also have to remember that, that sports gambling has been around as long as sports, right from the very first foot race to ancient Greece, where the Olympics were gambled upon. It wasn't until 1860 that this government, our federal government, outlawed sports gambling in all sports except one. And that was horse racing, which was always an industry that. That had to fight back against corruption and money and gambling and that sort of thing. But this is at another level. But I should also say that I don't think that this has as much to do with the legalization of sports gambling, which happened in 2018, as it does the amount of money that one can win now at gambling. You're talking about an industry in this country that is expected by 2030 to reach $1 trillion. That's legal and illegal gambling. And illegal gambling makes up almost a third of that.
- [36:10]
Nicole Wallace
Jason, can you just tell us what the current player and the current coach are accused of doing and whether there's talk inside the NBA about whether or not it starts and ends with those two individuals walls?
- [36:26]
Jason Page
Look, I'd be shocked if it ended. If it started and ended with these guys. First of all, there is a culture of gambling that's been within the NBA forever. The back of airplanes, on team flights, hotel rooms where players will meet up. This has been going on for a long time, and it doesn't shock me. I mean, I got to be honest, after the initial shock of hearing about these indictments hits you, the honest thing that comes to my mind is are we really surprised? How many times have we asked ourselves as SP fans and pundits and talk show hosts and even journalists, how do they get the line so close in Las Vegas? How are they always. How do they always get it between one and two points of whatever that spread is? Do they know something? Is there some inside information? Well, guess what? It turns out there is, and now we all know it. Not to sound cynical about it, Nicole and Kevin, but this. I'm not shocked that this sort of thing has come about. And quite honestly, you know, we were all staring down the tunnel of a train coming at us at high speed when the NBA and all these sports leagues announced they were going to get in bed with sports betting. And while I agree on some Level with Kevin when he says that, you know, we, we, we can't blame sports betting legalization, you know, and it's more the amounts that are being bet on game games. We can look at things such as prop bets, player props that are put in here by these betting companies and, and that all these sports leagues are happy to get into bed with as part of the problem. Because if there's one thing that's easy to fix, it's a pitch by pitch situation like we've seen in baseball where you could say, ah, the first pitch of an inning is going to be a ball. How easy is it for a pitcher to then go and throw a ball on that first pitch of an inning? Same thing in the NBA with player prop bets. Especially when you're talking about player prop bets on guys that aren't mega stars. The league, this has all been something that you could see coming. A lot of us saw it coming and yet the leagues just seem to go along with it and say, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna take all this betting money, you know, that the Fanduels and DraftKings and all these companies are going to give to us because it's going to line our pockets and line our owners pockets and as a result be able to line the pockets of players with big salaries. But these are the unintended consequences that many of us saw coming.
- [38:47]
Nicole Wallace
And prop bets, if you could just explain to our viewers, that's betting not necessarily on the outcome of a game, but on all these sites and in Vegas, anywhere where you can gamble, which is I think what 39 states now, legally you can bet on an individual player's stats and they don't have to be good, you can bet on them being bad. That's what the indictment describes. Yeah.
- [39:10]
Jason Page
And it's the perfect example of it is tonight in the Thursday night NFL game, there'll be a bet on Carson Wentz. Is he going to throw for over 275 yards? Okay, you can go and bet that particular thing. And every player has these sorts of bets, these individual bets that, that people can do. And this is, you know, this, this is something that's out there throughout all of sports and every major sports league. It's an option for people and it's why betting is so prevalent the way, the way it is right now. Not because of people betting on games, but people betting on individual players to accomplish or not accomplish certain things.
- [39:51]
Nicole Wallace
All right, no one's going anywhere. I have a million more questions for both of you. I have to sneak in a short break. We'll all be right back. The connection between the guests on the show is the show. All that we do is put together people who are smart, people who are brave, people who are honest, and lots of times people who have not. To have a conversation that has never happened before, but on that day deepens everyone's understanding about the moment in which we gather.
- [40:21]
MSNBC Announcer
Deadline White House with Nicole Wallace, weekdays from 4 to 6pm Eastern on MSNBC.
- [40:31]
Nicole Wallace
We're back with Kevin and Jason. Kevin, just explain why this matters. If you're not a person who bets on sports or you're not necessarily a big fan of the NBA, why, why does this matter to the broader sort of fabric of our society?
- [40:47]
Kevin Blackistone
Well, because sports are supposed to be something we should be able to believe in our fair contest in front of us. And if we have evidence like this case is showing that some of the games we've been watching and right now I think the count is seven games, are not fitting there and that something nefarious is going on behind the, behind the curtain to influence the outcome of the game will determine the outcome of the game. Then all of a sudden we lose faith in sports or we lose faith in that particular league. And that's what happened after the 1919 Black Sox scandal in baseball, where eight members of the White Sox team were found to have colluded in throwing those games games and disqualifying the, the World Series. And baseball went into a bit of a tailspin because people could no longer believe what was before them. And then fortunately, a guy named Babe Ruth came along and we heroized him. And, and, and baseball was able to recover. But that's the, that's the, the big problem here is that you're not watching a true contest, but you're watching something where someone is cheating and the outcome is not what it should be.
- [42:04]
Nicole Wallace
Kevin, do you think the impacts will be immediate? I mean, do you think that people that turn on, it's the beginning of the season. Do you think the people that go to watch games will now be as disillusioned as people in the political arena with what they're watching?
- [42:18]
Kevin Blackistone
I don't, you know, I don't think so just yet. I think Jason kind of alluded to it. It'd be, it, it depends on how big this winds up being. If the NBA can, can distance themselves from these players and coaches as some sort of rogue characters, which is what they did with Tim G. The, the, the referee who a number of years ago was found to have colluded with, with gamblers and determine the outcome of games. As long as they can do that, then I think, I think the public and the fans will be able to, to take it in. But if not not, then I think they're going to be in for a bit of trouble. And you know, the other interesting thing about this is and you, you, you can't take politics out of this because for this investigation to be released today, a day after the NBA had a huge splash of the opening of their season, and to know that this particular president has such animus for the NBA because of players like LeBron James, that's also something I think that is going on here right now, which doesn't dispel what has been found out, but it does call into question what you just raised and that's about how much fans are going to continue to embrace the NBA immediately.
- [43:46]
Nicole Wallace
Right. Anyone with a platform and credibility has to be, I don't know, brought down to size. It's just, it's an interesting wrinkle and layer and maybe the facts will bear it out in the coming weeks and months. We'll call on both of you to help us understand it. Kevin Blackistone and Jason Page, thank you so much for joining us today. One more break. We'll be right back. Pete Hegseth's Pentagon has announced a new press corps, mostly comprised of right wing athletes. It comes just a week after scores of journalists handed in their press badges in protest of the new press policy, kneecapping reporters ability to do their jobs. The Department of Defense did not name who is in the new press corps, but we are learning who they are because the outlets have started announcing that they're part of it themselves. They're largely right wing pro Trump outlets like the Gateway Pundit, Real America's Voice, Lindell TV Frontlines, an arm of Turning Point, USA influencer Tim Pool's Timcast and the National Pulse. If at least one of those sounds familiar to you, let it be Lindell TV. Yes, that Lindell, it's chief executive of MyPillow, Mike Lindell's online streaming service. We'll stay on top of that story and its ramifications for the country. One more break. We'll be right back. Charlamagne, the God is my guest on this week's episode of the Best People. Scan the QR code to watch it now on YouTube or download wherever you get your podcasts and let me know what you think. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes today. We are grateful.